power heels down

[drummingman]

is it possible to get a lot of power and volume while playing the bass drum heels down? also, when i play heels down when compared to heels up i get a bigger more full sound when i play heels up, the heels down sound is kind of flat sounding. is there a reason for this?
is there anybody here that plays heels down when playing loud music like metal or hard rock? i read an article with the drummer of trivium where he talked about playing heels down when doing double bass. from what i have heard he gets a loud full sound. i know that he could be triggering but i have to wonder if he is not.

[drummingman]

no one has any thoughts?

[MattRitter]

Hey, Drummingman

Basically you're asking whether it's possible to cut down a tree with toe nail clippers, or if you need to use a chain saw. The answer is that the toe nail clippers can work if you're persistent, but why do so much extra work? Lifting the heel up and using the whole leg (allowing the beater to rebound off of the head) makes a louder sound than playing heel down because a person's leg is heavier than a person's foot. This is not an opinion. It's a simple fact of physiology and physics, so it's true for everyone.

Hope this outside perspective helps. Best of luck with your drumming!

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[jazzsnob]

Practicing heel down is extra work because you to train more muscles, which makes you a better. Things that come easily are not necessarily good for your playing. I play heel up or heel down but I only practice heel down. I can do both because practicing heel down works everything. You also get more control because you have to deal with holding your leg up which can creat tension and definitely wastes energy. Heel down is very worthwhile to practice. It takes a lot more energy to keep lifting your leg up and down than If you take the time and train your calf muscles, you should be able to do both.

But whatever, take the easy way out, it's no big deal I guess.

[drummingman]

well, im wondering if a person should just practice heels down or if they should also play heels down? its a question of power and sound for me. if i can get good power and a good sound heels down then it just makes sense to play heels down for fast strokes. i say this because when people are plauing heels up using just the ankle they are having to hold the leg up which takes ennergy that you dont have to using when just using your ankles while play heels down. so if i can get the power and a good sound while play heels down when using just the ankle that seems like that would be the right way to go.

[SEVNT7]

Practice everything...................T

[razorx]

Hey, Drummingman

Basically you're asking whether it's possible to cut down a tree with toe nail clippers, or if you need to use a chain saw. The answer is that the toe nail clippers can work if you're persistent, but why do so much extra work? Lifting the heel up and using the whole leg (allowing the beater to rebound off of the head) makes a louder sound than playing heel down because a person's leg is heavier than a person's foot. This is not an opinion. It's a simple fact of physiology and physics, so it's true for everyone.

Hope this outside perspective helps. Best of luck with your drumming!

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com
wow what an anology!

[drummingman]

Hey, Drummingman

Basically you're asking whether it's possible to cut down a tree with toe nail clippers, or if you need to use a chain saw. The answer is that the toe nail clippers can work if you're persistent, but why do so much extra work? Lifting the heel up and using the whole leg (allowing the beater to rebound off of the head) makes a louder sound than playing heel down because a person's leg is heavier than a person's foot. This is not an opinion. It's a simple fact of physiology and physics, so it's true for everyone.

Hope this outside perspective helps. Best of luck with your drumming!

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com
well, what im talking about is when a person is just using their ankle. when a person goes faster i know they have to convert from leg to ankle, but most people use heel up off the pedal just a bit when they do just ankle. now, when doing double bass holding both heels off the ground creates a balance issue. so if a person just keeps their heels on the ground when using just the ankles thenthere is no balance problem. but can a person get the power and the full sound heels down just anklesthat they can get heels held up just a bit using just ankles?
when im playing slower when im play loud i always use heels up because im using the ankle with the whole leg dropping the foot onto the pedal. but im just asking about when a person is using just the ankle so they can play faster when im talking about using heels down.

[Jeff Almeyda]

well, what im talking about is when a person is just using their ankle. when a person goes faster i know they have to convert from leg to ankle, but most people use heel up off the pedal just a bit when they do just ankle. now, when doing double bass holding both heels off the ground creates a balance issue. so if a person just keeps their heels on the ground when using just the ankles thenthere is no balance problem. but can a person get the power and the full sound heels down just anklesthat they can get heels held up just a bit using just ankles?
when im playing slower when im play loud i always use heels up because im using the ankle with the whole leg dropping the foot onto the pedal. but im just asking about when a person is using just the ankle so they can play faster when im talking about using heels down.

Heel up ankle is faster and more powerful than heel down, period. Just look at the top double bass players and they all play heel up.

Your problem is that you can't hold both feet off the ground and you feel unbalanced that way. You ask if you can simply avoid that hurdle by playing heel down. The answer is NO. Travis Smith from Trivium notwithstanding.

Heel up playing with double bass is a totally different animal than for single bass. Practicing heel down will help your ankle motion somewhat but it will not develop the muscles of the lower back, hamstrings, abs and hip flexors. It is also an incomplete, almost guided ankle motion that is MUCH easier to do cleanly than the heel-up version.

Heel down playing does NOT work more muscles as Jazzsnob stated. It works LESS muscles. It's obvious because the upper legs are taken out of the move so how can it work more muscles? It isolates the lower leg.

You simply need to take a few YEARS to develop the muscles and balance to play heel up.

[drummingman]

but power can be devoloped heels down. im basing that off of travis smith. im not saying that im gonna try to go heels down, im just say that a person can get that power if they work at it.
i just wonder if a person can be 80 years old and hold both heels off the ground for a long period of time while using just ankles? i say this because whatever techniques i work on i dont wna to have to change to another technique as i get older.
i see myself working on heels up using just the ankles. im just throwing out some thoughts to see what everybody thinks.

[aydee]

Ok, so is it me that weird or do some others do the same thing. I play, both heel up and down. for the simpler, softer stuff or a hard slow tempo, its heel down.

For triplets, quads, singles, faster continous patterns, its heel up.

thats not the weird part.

Weird is, when I play heel up, I pull myself closer to the kit so that my legs are more upright.Its easier on my stamina, legs muscles are relaxed in this position. So its like 2 different sitting positions.

I play both matched and trad grip as well,changing frequently, so maybe that explains everything, lol!

[King Of Drums]

Umm learn both. Both work different muscles so it will help your overall drumming. It's impossible to get volume out of the bass drum playing heel down when you are playing at fast tempos unless you use triggers. You can get decent volume heel down if you play slower though but obviously not as much as heel up.

[Erik Lund]

"Basically you're asking whether it's possible to cut down a tree with toe nail clippers, or if you need to use a chain saw. The answer is that the toe nail clippers can work if you're persistent, but why do so much extra work?"


Maybe he wants the tree to make a sweet tone with the clips...

Develop both!

[Jeff Almeyda]

If you look at your first post you ask if power can be created heel down. Several drummers with MANY years of experience told you NO. You then insisted that it could be done and you use Travis from Trivium as an example. So 99.9% of double bass metal guys play heel up and you're gonna go with the odd man out.

You never wanted a real answer in the first place, you just wanted to be reassured that you were right. When both Matt and I told you no, you then went from asking us to telling us that it is as powerful as heel up.

Well, you are 100% wrong. OK? Deal with it.

I can guarantee you that if you saw Dave Lombardo and Travis Smith playing next to each other on acoustic kits w/o triggers that Dave's power would absolutely crush Travis. Travis is doing what Dave did 20 years ago and not nearly as well.

[Legacyrik]

well, im wondering if a person should just practice heels down or if they should also play heels down? its a question of power and sound for me. if i can get good power and a good sound heels down then it just makes sense to play heels down for fast strokes. i say this because when people are plauing heels up using just the ankle they are having to hold the leg up which takes ennergy that you dont have to using when just using your ankles while play heels down. so if i can get the power and a good sound while play heels down when using just the ankle that seems like that would be the right way to go.

As stated previously, you won't find many "double bass players" using heel down as their primary method. Someone like Jazzsnob while I'm sure a good player, is probably not using double bass like it sounds like you would be, since I believe he plays mainly jazz. Go search someone like Derek Roddy on youtube, his technique looks pretty relaxed and efficient to me. That's how most are doing it, more or less.

[MattRitter]

Hey, guys

By trying to use a clever analogy in my first post here, I think I ended up giving an answer that was not as thorough as it could have been. This time, I'm going to be less "clever" and try to clearly address all of the various issues that have come up in this thread.

POWER

A person's leg is heavier than just their foot. Therefore, when a person plays with their heels raised up, there is literally more weight behind the stroke. This means more power. Can a person play heel down with power? Sure, but it takes more effort. Also, even if someone can play very strongly with their heels down, that same person would be able to play even MORE strongly with their heels raised. They would just need to practice it. This is not merely opinion. If you look up the physics equation for "force," you will see that one of the factors is "mass." A leg has more mass than a foot. Thus, more force.

Drummingman mentioned that this might not apply if a person holds their leg in the air and just plays from the ankle. Good point. BUT...even if a person plays heel up using only the ankle, the weight of their leg still comes into play somewhat. To see this point, try the following experiment. Sit on your throne facing away from your drums and hold your legs in the air so that your feet are completely off the floor. You will be lucky if you can even do this without falling over! Now spin back around to face your drums and put your feet on the pedals. Lift your legs again so that your heels are off the ground, but leave your toes slightly touching the pedals. You will probably feel 100% more stable than you did a moment ago. This proves that some of our leg weight is still being exerted on the pedals even when we think we are just holding our legs up and working from the ankles. So again, heel up in all of its various forms puts more weight behind the stroke. More weight means more power.

SPEED

Heel up has a greater potential for speed than heel down because it allows the ankle to move more freely. When you play heel down, your heel is rooted in one spot, which is somewhat confining. Try this: Hold your leg up with your toe on the footboard and your heel about an inch off the heel plate. Play your pedal from the ankle. You will see that your heel moves quite a bit in the air. Interesting, right? So, playing from the ankle in this fashion creates a slightly different movement than playing heel down, where the heel is stuck in one stationary spot.

MUSCLES

When we play heel down, we can't use the muscles of our upper legs and hips. The movement in heel down comes from the lower leg (calf and shin muscles). So, to fully exercise and develop as many bass drum playing muscles as possible, it's best to practice heel down AND heel up. That way, you develop the upper leg muscles as well as the lower leg muscles. Plus, as Jeff pointed out, you will work and develop the stabilizing muscles of the back and abdomen.

SOUND

Heel down creates a round and resonant sound because it typically allows the beater to rebound cleanly off of the drumhead. Often when people say "heel up," they're talking about leaning into the drumhead and "burying the beater." This approach typically leads to a choked drum sound, especially on a drum that isn't filled with pillows. However, playing with the heels raised up does NOT mean that one must bury the beater. If you allow the beater to rebound freely from the head, you can get a full, resonant sound with the heels down OR raised up.

YEAH, BUT SO AND SO...

When a person truly sets their mind to something, they can generally achieve tremendous results...even in the face of obstacles. I once saw a drummer play incredibly well with a pair of drumsticks held between his toes! He had no arms, so this was his only way to be a drummer at all. He set his mind to it, and he pulled it off. This is a true testament to the human spirit. Still, it doesn't mean that we should all play without our arms from now on! If someone has achieved great speed or great power with an approach that is somewhat inefficient, then we can marvel at their commitment, perseverance, and luck! This doesn't mean that it's in our best interest to imitate their approach! To me, it makes the most sense to work in harmony with the underlying principles of physics and physiology. Who wants to make life (or drumming) harder than it needs to be?

Drummingman, I hope this post has answered your questions better than my previous one did. If you need any further input, feel free to email me directly through my website. I'm not always on Drummer World.

Happy drumming, everyone!

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[intooder]

Hey, guys

By trying to use a clever analogy in my first post here, I think I ended up giving an answer that was not as thorough as it could have been. This time, I'm going to be less "clever" and try to clearly address all of the various issues that have come up in this thread.

POWER

A person's leg is heavier than just their foot. Therefore, when a person plays with their heels raised up, there is literally more weight behind the stroke. This means more power. Can a person play heel down with power? Sure, but it takes more effort. Also, even if someone can play very strongly with their heels down, that same person would be able to play even MORE strongly with their heels raised. They would just need to practice it. This not merely opinion. If you look up the physics equation for "force," you will see that one of the factors is "mass." A leg has more mass than a foot. Thus, more force.

Drummingman mentioned that this might not apply if a person holds their leg in the air and just plays from the ankle. Good point. BUT...even if a person plays heel up using only the ankle, the weight of their leg still comes into play somewhat. To see this point, try the following experiment. Sit on your throne facing away from your drums and hold your legs in the air so that your feet are completely off the floor. You will be lucky if you can even do this without falling over! Now spin back around to face your drums and put your feet on the pedals. Lift your legs again so that your heels are off the grund, but leave your toes slightly touching the pedals. You will probably feel 100% more stable than you did a moment ago. This proves that some of our leg weight is still being exerted on the pedals even when we think we are just holding our legs up and working from the ankles. So again, heel up in all of its various forms puts more weight behind the stroke. More weight means more power.

SPEED

Heel up has a greater potential for speed than heel down because it allows the ankle to move more freely. When you play heel down, your heel is rooted in one spot, which is somewhat confining. Try this: Hold your leg up with your toe on the footboard and your heel about an inch off the heel plate. Play your pedal from the ankle. You will see that your heel moves quite a bit in the air. Interesting, right? So, playing from the ankle in this fashion creates a slightly different movement than playing heel down, where the heel is stuck in one stationary spot.

MUSCLES

When we play heel down, we can't use the muscles of our upper legs and hips. The movement in heel down comes from the lower leg (calf and shin muscles). So, to fully exercise and develop as many bass drum playing muscles as possible, it's best to practice heel down AND heel up. That way, you develop the upper leg muscles as well as the lower leg muscles. Plus, as Jeff pointed out, you will work and develop the stabilizing muscles of the back and abdomen.

SOUND

Heel down creates a round and resonant sound because it typically allows the beater to rebound cleanly off of the drumhead. Often when people say "heel up," they're talking about leaning into the drumhead and "burying the beater." This approach typically leads to a choked drum sound, especially on a drum that isn't filled with pillows. However, playing with the heels raised up does NOT mean that one must bury the beater. If you allow the beater to rebound freely from the head, you can get a full, resonant sound with the heels down OR raised up.

YEAH, BUT SO AND SO...

When a person truly sets their mind to something, they can generally achieve tremendous results...even in the face of obstacles. I once saw a drummer play incredibly well with a pair of drumsticks held between his toes! He had no arms, so this was his only way to be a drummer at all. He set his mind to it, and he pulled it off. This is a true testament to the human spirit. Still, it doesn't mean that we should all play without our arms from now on! If someone has achieved great speed or great power with an approach that is somewhat inefficient, then we can marvel at their commitment, perseverance, and luck! This doesn't mean that it's in our best interest to imitate their approach! To me, it makes the most sense to work in harmony with the underlying principles of physics and physiology. Who wants to make life (or drumming) harder than it needs to be?

Drummingman, I hope this post has answered your questions better than my previous one did. If you need any further input, feel free to email me directly through my website. I'm not always on Drummer World.

Happy drumming, everyone!

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com (http://www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com)
Great post, Matt! Thanks.

[drummingman]

If you look at your first post you ask if power can be created heel down. Several drummers with MANY years of experience told you NO. You then insisted that it could be done and you use Travis from Trivium as an example. So 99.9% of double bass metal guys play heel up and you're gonna go with the odd man out.

You never wanted a real answer in the first place, you just wanted to be reassured that you were right. When both Matt and I told you no, you then went from asking us to telling us that it is as powerful as heel up.

Well, you are 100% wrong. OK? Deal with it.

I can guarantee you that if you saw Dave Lombardo and Travis Smith playing next to each other on acoustic kits w/o triggers that Dave's power would absolutely crush Travis. Travis is doing what Dave did 20 years ago and not nearly as well.
if you read my post i said "i see myself working on heels up using just the ankles. im just throwing out some thoughts to see what everybody thinks" . so there is no need for you to get all cocky with your reply.
matt, thanks for such a good reply in your post. you made a very good case as to why i should go with the heels up ankle approach. i also agree with you about practicing heels down and heels up.
here is a question for you matt, how should a person go about getting into the heels up position for using just the ankles? should i just hold my legs up with the leg and hip muscles or should i roll the ankles up which aslo brings the ankles off the pedals? from what i can tell when i roll the ankles up im puting my feet in somewhat of an extended position as opposed to when i just left my heels up with the legs and hip muscles which alows my feet to start out in a flat position with the toes and the balls of my feet on the pedal.

[MattRitter]

When I lift my heels, I do so with a combination of the elements you mentioned. It's primarily a leg lift from the hip with a slightly "rolling" of the foot. Just make sure the rolling the foot part is extremely slight. You do not want the pedal to press down more than a hair when you lift the heel. Otherwise, you might accidentally get a little ghost note against the head as you get into position. This error is very common. I see it almost everyday with my own students. They try to make a note, but they mistakenly get 2 notes instead. They get a quiet, unintentional note from pushing down on the pedal while lifting the heel. Then they get a louder note when they actually make the stroke. This is one case where you don't want "2 for the price of 1." Avoid pressing the pedal down as you lift up the heel!

Best of luck.

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[Jeff Almeyda]

if you read my post i said "i see myself working on heels up using just the ankles. im just throwing out some thoughts to see what everybody thinks" . so there is no need for you to get all cocky with your reply.
matt, thanks for such a good reply in your post. you made a very good case as to why i should go with the heels up ankle approach. i also agree with you about practicing heels down and heels up.
here is a question for you matt, how should a person go about getting into the heels up position for using just the ankles? should i just hold my legs up with the leg and hip muscles or should i roll the ankles up which aslo brings the ankles off the pedals? from what i can tell when i roll the ankles up im puting my feet in somewhat of an extended position as opposed to when i just left my heels up with the legs and hip muscles which alows my feet to start out in a flat position with the toes and the balls of my feet on the pedal.

Sorry if it seemed like I was jumping down your throat, bro. I see what you were saying now.

Here's an interesting viewpoint from Mike Mangini. I have been studying with him for a few months now:

Mike believes that most people take the backwards approach to learning heel down/heel up. Many instructors will tell you to learn heel down first or practice heel down to play heel up. Mike feels that is backwards. He says to practice heel up ALL the time and you will easily be able to play any heel down pattern that you require.

The philosophy behind this is actually what sports physiologists have known for a long time. The body will quickly develop it's own stability in an unstable environment. Any "crutches" used to stabilize the body in an attempt to nake the initial challenge easier simply slows down the adaptation process. In othe words, training wheels on a bike may help you from cracking your head open but it does NOT speed up the rate of learning to really ride a bike. In the words of sports physiologist Paul Chek: "Like an infant the athlete should be allowed to stagger and explore in a new environment. In this way the motor pathways are maximally stimulated"

So now, which environment is more unstable? Heel up for double bass in obviously more unstable than heel down. The ability to hold both legs up off of the ground and move only from the ankles requires more nerve and muscle stimulation to occur than does the heel down approach. So why are we drummers making the path twice as long by first practicing heel down and then heel up when we could just practice heel up ankle motion (NOT full leg just ankle) and get the heel down in the process?

Because it's always been done this way, that's why. No one actually studied sports physiology and nervous system adaptation and applied it to the drums. Well Mangini has and that's why he's where he's at.

So the truth is that I have recently changed my viewpoint. Dom Famularo used to tell me "Practice heel down to play heel up" but after actually studying this stuff with Mike I am now sure that that is incorrect. The true statement which aligns with the reality of the human body and nervous system is : "Practice heel up ankle motion and heel down ankle motion will come easily"

Remember: I'm not talking about "running on the pedals" That motion will NOT improves your ankle movement. I'm talking about using the core muscles to hold up the legs and moving from the ankles ONLY.

Let the debate begin!

[MattRitter]

He says to practice heel up ALL the time and you will easily be able to play any heel down pattern that you require.

The philosophy behind this is actually what sports physiologists have known for a long time. The body will quickly develop it's own stability in an unstable environment. Any "crutches" used to stabilize the body in an attempt to nake the initial challenge easier simply slows down the adaptation process. In othe words, training wheels on a bike may help you from cracking your head open but it does NOT speed up the rate of learning to really ride a bike. In the words of sports physiologist Paul Chek: "Like an infant the athlete should be allowed to stagger and explore in a new environment. In this way the motor pathways are maximally stimulated"

So now, which environment is more unstable? Heel up for double bass in obviously more unstable than heel down. The ability to hold both legs up off of the ground and move only from the ankles requires more nerve and muscle stimulation to occur than does the heel down approach. So why are we drummers making the path twice as long by first practicing heel down and then heel up when we could just practice heel up ankle motion (NOT full leg just ankle) and get the heel down in the process?

The true statement which aligns with the reality of the human body and nervous system is : "Practice heel up ankle motion and heel down ankle motion will come easily"

Let the debate begin!

Actually, there's another principle of physiology that needs to be integrated with the ideas mentioned above. The principle is called SAID (specificity of adaptation to imposed demands). Basically, it states that we adapt precisely to whatever demands we place upon ourselves. In other words, we get good at whatever we practice! If a person goes to the gym and does a leg exercise such as the squat, it does not necessarily mean they will improve on the leg press...even though both of these exercises use most of the same muscles. It's strange, but it's a known phenomenon. Again, you can find out about this if you look up SAID.

So, if we want to be good at heel down, we need to practice heel down. If we want to be good at heel up, we need to practice heel up. I actually think many of us already discovered this from our own experience without any knowledge of the SAID principle.

By the way, an exercise guy named Brian Johnston did a lengthy analysis of Paul Chek's teachings. He found numerous holes in the logic.

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Technique For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[Jeff Almeyda]

Actually, there's another principle of physiology that needs to be integrated with the ideas mentioned above. The principle is called SAID (specificity of adaptation to imposed demands). Basically, it states that we adapt precisely to whatever demands we place upon ourselves. In other words, we get good at whatever we practice! If a person goes to the gym and does a leg exercise such as the squat, it does not necessarily mean they will improve on the leg press...even though both of these exercises use most of the same muscles. It's strange, but it's a known phenomenon. Again, you can find out about this if you look up SAID.

So, if we want to be good at heel down, we need to practice heel down. If we want to be good at heel up, we need to practice heel up. I actually think many of us already discovered this from our own experience without any knowledge of the SAID principle.

By the way, an exercise guy named Brian Johnston did a lengthy analysis of Paul Chek's teachings. He found numerous holes in the logic.

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Technique For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

I do know about the SAID principle and I believe that your interpretation of it is incorrect. Here is a definition of the SAID principle:

The philosophy SBR Coaching & Training Center uses for coaching, training and testing is based on the SAID principle. This principle states that there is a Specific Adaptation to an Imposed Demand. The SAID principle explains that a certain exercise or type of training produces adaptations specific to the activity performed and only in the muscles (and energy systems) that are stressed by the activity. For example, running produces favorable adaptations in the leg muscles and the cardio-vascular system. However, the muscles and systems not stressed show no adaptation; so even heroic amounts of running will produce no favorable changes in, say, the arms. Of course, the adaptations that result from running do transfer somewhat to other sports that depend on the same body parts and systems.


According to the the last sentence (highlight mine) of this definition the results of an exercise DO transfer to similar activities. That means that heel up ankle training WILL help the heel down motion.

If SAID worked as you stated then weight training would not impove perforance in sport. We would be forced to do EXACTLY the movements from our sport in order to receive any gain from the training session yet experience shows that not to be the case. If an athlete strengthens his hamstrings through weight training he will increase his speed in the 40 yard dash. If SAID worked as you stated then that would never occur. SAID means that if you train for endurance you cannot expect gains in speed and so on. Also as a matter of fact, if an athlete increases his squat he will DEFINITELY increase his leg press because of the incredible neural stimulation effect of balaning a heavy weight and moving it through space. Ask any serious lifter if the squat helps his leg press. The squat stresses many more systems than the leg press. These systems include the lower back, hip flexors and neural coordination systems. The leg press only minimally stresses those systems and thus the NET TRAINING EFFECT is less. It has to be, it's only basic logic and biomechanics.

Back to the drums: The only problem that I have ever had with heel down has been with development of the tibialis. It's not as if there is anything difficult about the actual movement, especially when compared to heels up from the ankle. The floor provides support and takes stress off of the core muscles. Heel up from the ankle has a greater range of motion than heel down but the ankle motion is essentially the same. Yet it is more difficult because of the core strength and balance required to hold the legs up.

It's like the free weights vs machine debate. Free weights produce greater neural stimulation and faster reslts because the body is forced to coordinate the balancing of the weight with the actual effort of lifting it. A machine locks you into a certain "groove" and your nervous system doesn't have to work as hard to lift the weight because it is being balanced for you.

Heel down is like exercising with a machine. You may get stronger on the machine bench press but you will be in for a rude shock if you try to lift a free weight of the same resistance. In the same manner, you will be in for a rude shock if you get good at heel down and then try to go to heel up. Your hamstrings and core muscles will not be up to the task and they take longer to develop than the little tibialis. I know because I did it. If one learned heel up first the transition to heel down would be easier than the other way around because LESS effort would be required to make the stroke, both in terms of balance and core strength and in terms of range of motion of the ankle.

There will always be a learning curve with a new technique bit I feel that if one jumps in the deep water, so to speak and starts with the HARDER variation, then the overall curve is less steep than the other way around.

BTW, Matt. I have your video and it's excellent. I recommend that all serious drummers pick up a copy.

[MattRitter]

Hey, Jeff

Thanks for your lengthy post. This might be a situation where we end up "agreeing to disagree." I understand your interpretation of SAID, and I think you are correct in most respects. If an exercise strengthens a certain muscle, then other activities which use that same muscle may show some degree of improvement from the increased strength. However, sheer strength is only a part of the equation. In drumming, it's probably a SMALL part of the equation. The specific details of an action are controlled by our nervous system. If 2 activities are not EXACTLY the same, then the motor patterns associated with those 2 activities will not be exactly the same. That's why our drumming can feel off when we make a tiny adjustment like using a different sized stick.

So, yes, playing heel up can strengthen muscles that are also used in heel down. This strengthening may have some positive carry-over. Still, the best way to develop the exact motor pattern for playing heel down is to actually practice heel down. It's always a good idea to specifically practice what we plan to play at the gig!

Thanks again for your input here, Jeff. I really appreciate the obvious time and thought that you've put into your posts. I think there's a lot of valuable info on the table. What more could we want? It is unlikely that we'll reach any definitive conclusions. Exercise specialists have been debating some of these issues for years! You mentioned Paul Chek. Look into Brian Johnston as well. My interpretation of SAID comes from him. He is a bit of a renegade thinker on this stuff, but his points make sense to me.

Now that we've both written lengthy essays on physiology, I think it's time to surrender this thread back to the others...and back to the issue of a powerful bass drum sound!

Speaking of which...thanks for the kind words about my DVD! I didn't know you had a copy. That's great!

Best of luck, everyone!

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[cnw60]

...
Mike believes that most people take the backwards approach to learning heel down/heel up. Many instructors will tell you to learn heel down first or practice heel down to play heel up. Mike feels that is backwards. He says to practice heel up ALL the time and you will easily be able to play any heel down pattern that you require.

...

...
So the truth is that I have recently changed my viewpoint. Dom Famularo used to tell me "Practice heel down to play heel up" but after actually studying this stuff with Mike I am now sure that that is incorrect. The true statement which aligns with the reality of the human body and nervous system is : "Practice heel up ankle motion and heel down ankle motion will come easily"

Remember: I'm not talking about "running on the pedals" That motion will NOT improves your ankle movement. I'm talking about using the core muscles to hold up the legs and moving from the ankles ONLY.

Let the debate begin!

Question for Jeff - do you feel that heel down practice has no value at all?

because it seems to me that when I practice heel down, I can feel my control improve more noticeably than when I play heel up exclusively. My natural tendency when playing is to be in the heel up position - (if I'm playing and not really thinking about my feet, invariably they are heel up). So for me at least, heel down practice is just a way of practicing discipline with my feet. It's harder in the same way that practicing quarter notes with the hands at slow speeds improves the quality and control of my stickwork at both low and high speeds. Or does this merely point out that I'm 'cheating' and using the bounce of my legs when playing heel up and not moving from the ankles only.

[drummingman]

Sorry if it seemed like I was jumping down your throat, bro. I see what you were saying now.
hey man, no worries.
i used to study with dom as well. i switched over to tiger bill. i have had 1 lesson with him and i like his teaching approach better. dont get my wrong, dom is an awesome teacher though.
how would you say that your lessons with mike are? i know he has some killer chops so im sure that he has some great stuff to teach. i thought about taking some lessons with him awhile back.
matt, i also have your dvd and think that it is great!
when it come to heels up and heels down i like to play heels down when im playing very soft. it just seems better suited for playing really soft, like when feathering the bass drum.
heels up ankles does get more power and for me i can tell that i get a bigger sound when i play heels up ankles.

[MattRitter]

matt, i also have your dvd and think that it is great!


Terrific! Thanks! It's certainly nice to get positive feedback.

Best of luck!

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[Alex Luce]

SOUND

Heel down creates a round and resonant sound because it typically allows the beater to rebound cleanly off of the drumhead. Often when people say "heel up," they're talking about leaning into the drumhead and "burying the beater." This approach typically leads to a choked drum sound, especially on a drum that isn't filled with pillows. However, playing with the heels raised up does NOT mean that one must bury the beater. If you allow the beater to rebound freely from the head, you can get a full, resonant sound with the heels down OR raised up.

Hey Matt:

I wouldn't say burying the beater produces a choked sound, it is just a different sound. As far as I know Vinnie Colauita buries his beater all the time, and it produces a very punchy, staccato like sound. However, you still hear his front head resonate, so the sound has a nice decay and it is not choked.

I always admired Vinnie's ability to get that sound, although personally I do not bury the beater...I didn't learn that way, and it feels weird to me to leave the beater on the head.

Regards,

Alex

[Jeff Almeyda]

Question for Jeff - do you feel that heel down practice has no value at all?

because it seems to me that when I practice heel down, I can feel my control improve more noticeably than when I play heel up exclusively. My natural tendency when playing is to be in the heel up position - (if I'm playing and not really thinking about my feet, invariably they are heel up). So for me at least, heel down practice is just a way of practicing discipline with my feet. It's harder in the same way that practicing quarter notes with the hands at slow speeds improves the quality and control of my stickwork at both low and high speeds. Or does this merely point out that I'm 'cheating' and using the bounce of my legs when playing heel up and not moving from the ankles only.

Remember, I am telling you guys what Mr. Mangini told me. I pay $100.00 an hour for this info. You guys are lucky, you're getting it for free (and you don't have to fly to Boston to get it either). :)

I'll put it this way: When I told him I was practicing double bass heel down, he told me to stop immediately and he then spent 3 hrs working with me on isolating the ankle motion with the heels up.

Isolating the ankle motion with heels up at a tempo of 40 BPM (16th notes) is something that NOBODY has ever asked me to do. Most teachers will tell you that you use the full leg for slower stuff and go to the ankle only for the faster stuff. Mike says that you must practice slowly the way you will play fast. So, if you use ankle/heels up for fast stuff, then THAT'S what you should be practicing slowly.

Here's a little demonstration of what I mean: Sit on a crate or something high enough that your toes only barely touch the ground. (a Marshall speaker cabinet works well). Your thighs should be resting entirely on the surface. Just try to be like a kid sitting on the edge of a pool.

Now, play your double bass stuff, using the ankle only to tap your toes against the ground. The thighs will be out of the picture because they are resting on the flat surface that you are sitting on.

Not easy, isn't it?

Well, THAT is your true double bass ability level.

Now, sit a little lower and play heels down with your feet resting on the floor. Notice how you can go faster and it's more controlled. The floor is stabilizing you and limiting the ankle's range of motion. Both factors make it easier.

That is why Mike Mangini (and now Jeff Almeyda) feels that heel up/ankle practice is far superior for double bass playing than either heel down or heel up with the full leg motion.

[MattRitter]

Hey Matt:

I wouldn't say burying the beater produces a choked sound, it is just a different sound. As far as I know Vinnie Colauita buries his beater all the time, and it produces a very punchy, staccato like sound. However, you still hear his front head resonate, so the sound has a nice decay and it is not choked.

I always admired Vinnie's ability to get that sound, although personally I do not bury the beater...I didn't learn that way, and it feels weird to me to leave the beater on the head.

Regards,

Alex

Hey, Alex

For about 10 years, I played heel up, burying the beater. I became intimately aware of both the strengths and the limitations of that approach. Trust me- if Vinnie or anyone else played that way on my current bass drum, it would sound horrible- choked with no bottom end. The reason is that my current drum has no muffling inside of it. Also, both heads are tuned relatively tightly.

Guys who bury the beater generally need to set up the drum with that approach in mind. Usually this means a loose batter head, a tighter front head, and quite a bit of muffling. Set the drum up like that, and you won't sound choked when you bury the beater. Guys like Vinnie and Jeff Porcaro have proven this quite nicely. On the other hand, it may sound horrible if they take that technique and sit in on someone else's drumset. Just yesterday, I gave a lesson to a Grammy-nominated drummer. He was a bit skeptical until I played heel up (burying the beater) on my bass drum. He winced at how bad it sounded! When I began allowing the beater to rebound off of the head, he grinned and nodded in understanding. He was sold.

So...bury the beater, and you'll sound good if you're a drum star with the luxury of big drum companies willing to ship your personal drums all over the world. On the other hand, if you're a typical drummer who sits in on various drumsets at clubs or rehearsal studios, UNburying the beater is the way to go. That way, you can play on any bass drum and sound good- no chance of the choked sound phenomenon!

Continued luck with your drumming!

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[Jeff Almeyda]

Hey, Alex

For about 10 years, I played heel up, burying the beater. I became intimately aware of both the strengths and the limitations of that approach. Trust me- if Vinnie or anyone else played that way on my current bass drum, it would sound horrible- choked with no bottom end. The reason is that my current drum has no muffling inside of it. Also, both heads are tuned relatively tightly.

Guys who bury the beater generally need to set up the drum with that approach in mind. Usually this means a loose batter head, a tighter front head, and quite a bit of muffling. Set the drum up like that, and you won't sound choked when you bury the beater. Guys like Vinnie and Jeff Porcaro have proven this quite nicely. On the other hand, it may sound horrible if they take that technique and sit in on someone else's drumset. Just yesterday, I gave a lesson to a Grammy-nominated drummer. He was a bit skeptical until I played heel up (burying the beater) on my bass drum. He winced at how bad it sounded! When I began allowing the beater to rebound off of the head, he grinned and nodded in understanding. He was sold.

So...bury the beater, and you'll sound good if you're a drum star with the luxury of big drum companies willing to ship your personal drums all over the world. On the other hand, if you're a typical drummer who sits in on various drumsets at clubs or rehearsal studios, UNburying the beater is the way to go. That way, you can play on any bass drum and sound good- no chance of the choked sound phenomenon!

Continued luck with your drumming!

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

Matt is 100% right. You can't dig into a nicely tuned kick and get a nice round full sound.

Top pros get to set up their kicks primarily for feel because the engineer is taking care of alot of the drum sound. Add triggers to the equation and you can see why someone in their position could dig into the drum and be happy.

[rockitman]

I was a kid when Larry Colletti told me to keep my heels down. I played like that for years
wether it be fast tempo hard rock or slower jazzy ballads, I always start with the heal down. Until recently I realized that I had implemented different methods to achieve desired results. For power, I pull the foot back on the board a little and raise the heal a scoche. For speed I use a heal toe method. I move the foot all over the board and my beater flops around like a fish out of water. I never gave it too much thought, it just always took care of it's self. But I started heal down and trained that way for years.

[drummingman]

Remember, I am telling you guys what Mr. Mangini told me. I pay $100.00 an hour for this info. You guys are lucky, you're getting it for free (and you don't have to fly to Boston to get it either). :)

I'll put it this way: When I told him I was practicing double bass heel down, he told me to stop immediately and he then spent 3 hrs working with me on isolating the ankle motion with the heels up.

Isolating the ankle motion with heels up at a tempo of 40 BPM (16th notes) is something that NOBODY has ever asked me to do. Most teachers will tell you that you use the full leg for slower stuff and go to the ankle only for the faster stuff. Mike says that you must practice slowly the way you will play fast. So, if you use ankle/heels up for fast stuff, then THAT'S what you should be practicing slowly.

Here's a little demonstration of what I mean: Sit on a crate or something high enough that your toes only barely touch the ground. (a Marshall speaker cabinet works well). Your thighs should be resting entirely on the surface. Just try to be like a kid sitting on the edge of a pool.

Now, play your double bass stuff, using the ankle only to tap your toes against the ground. The thighs will be out of the picture because they are resting on the flat surface that you are sitting on.

Not easy, isn't it?

Well, THAT is your true double bass ability level.

Now, sit a little lower and play heels down with your feet resting on the floor. Notice how you can go faster and it's more controlled. The floor is stabilizing you and limiting the ankle's range of motion. Both factors make it easier.

That is why Mike Mangini (and now Jeff Almeyda) feels that heel up/ankle practice is far superior for double bass playing than either heel down or heel up with the full leg motion.
i have to say that after reading a few of your posts on not practicing heels down to get the heels up ankle thing going that what you, and mike, are saying makes sense to me. it does make perfect sense that if a person wants to get good at heels up ankle they should just practice that without going around the bend by working on heels down.

[cnw60]

Isolating the ankle motion with heels up at a tempo of 40 BPM (16th notes) is something that NOBODY has ever asked me to do. Most teachers will tell you that you use the full leg for slower stuff and go to the ankle only for the faster stuff. Mike says that you must practice slowly the way you will play fast. So, if you use ankle/heels up for fast stuff, then THAT'S what you should be practicing slowly.
...

Now, sit a little lower and play heels down with your feet resting on the floor. Notice how you can go faster and it's more controlled. The floor is stabilizing you and limiting the ankle's range of motion. Both factors make it easier.

That is why Mike Mangini (and now Jeff Almeyda) feels that heel up/ankle practice is far superior for double bass playing than either heel down or heel up with the full leg motion.

Jeff

Thanks for answering my question and sharing this with the forum.

Now I just have to get to work on what you're saying - it makes sense, especially the statement that you must practice slowly the way you will play fast. It's the same thing we do with our hands so why not apply it to feet?

This discussion is focused mostly on dbl bass playing, but I'm wondering what you recommend for hi-hat foot technique. It seems that control is control, regardless of what the pedal is driving, so I'd assume that heel up should be used for hi-hat too, but there are a lot of different things going on compared to a bass drum pedal where you're basically just striking the drum. Any thoughts??

[mddrummer]

i am able to play heal down and still get a hard powerful kick, but i used to be a skater so my legs and ankles are strong