Broken 8th Note Feel

[caprisun3484]

I'm wondering what exactly this means? Is it still swing with the skip note or is it more like a rock feel? I know I've heard people like Tony Williams do it but I just want more imformation on it. And on the Miles Davis album E.S.P. is the beginning of the song Eighty-One an example of this feel. I'll be grateful for any answers and it'll help me further my highschool playing.


* cough* sure hope Erik replies to this *cough*

[pasta]

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30701

[caprisun3484]

so it's like a straight 8th at fast tempos?

i'd already seen that post and I wanted a little more info on it

[fourstringdrums]

Playing a broken 8th note feel just means that instead of playing all the 8th notes in either a fill or a ride pattern, you drop some.

So instead of 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & in a fill, you might playing 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &. The bold parts are the notes that are dropped. For a fast ride cymbal pattern, say in a fast bebop tempo, you may ocassionally drop some of the notes and play on only the upbeat, or the &'s.

That's how I'd explain it anyway, may someone else can correct me or add more.

[Erik Lund]

Hey Caprisun - fourstring means well, but that definition isn't accurate. You can play straight through every division of 8th notes till the cow comes home if you want and it's still "broken 8th feel"


The notes are no longer "swing/swung/swang/sweng/swong/and sometimes swyng" they are STRAIGHT 8th notes. This is for uptempo playing - and that 8th note swing feel gets straightened around 190-200 bpms (roughly). The "skip" would be so miniscule and unnoticable...You just round it out to straight 8th notes.


Here's an exercise you can play right away to help understand it:

Take Stick Control:

Play excercise 1:

RLRL RLRL RLRL RLRL


NOW - keeping that same feel - play all R's on the bass drum and all L's on the snare - with the ride cymabl playing a standard "jazz pattern" but straight 8ths (hi hats on 2 & 4):


X.XX.X.XX.X.XX.X.XX
RLRL RLRL RLRL RLRL


Simple enough. You could think of it as being 16th notes if that helps you straightening out the notes to get away from swinging them...


Now - let's get more interesting with the same exercise:

RLRL RLRL RLRL RLRL


Let's say that all R's are both hands together - right hand on ride, left hand on snare
and the L's are the bass drum again with hats on 2 & 4

After that - let's say that R's are right hand on ride with the bass drum and L's are left hand on snare.


You can do all of these with hats on 2 & 4 and then after that do hats on all 4 beats - then do something completely different...Hats with the L's, for example...


Okay - after that...Let's play the exercise:

RLRL RLRL RLRL RLRL



This time with the bass drum back to being R's and snare with left hand as L's - but let's play a backwards ride pattern: 1 & 2 3 & 4


This is all just with the first line in Stick Control.

Now go to line 2...then 3, etc etc etc.


This is all "broken 8th note feel" - with every 8th note being played in a bar (each line is actually 2 bars of 4/4).

The notes are NOT SWUNG. The notes ARE STRAIGHT.

Jeff "Tain" Watts is a guy who does broken 8ths a lot. He does a lot of stuff with double paradiddles where the R's are the ride, and the L's are the snare and he'll put the bass drum with the ride (R's) or do a bass drum/hi-hat combo for each pair of "RR" in the para-diddle diddle (B=bass drum, S= snare drum, H=hi-hat):


RLRR LL (the spacing is just to align the two...)
BSBHSS


Yes - you will eventually want to leave notes out - you don't just want an endless string of 8th notes going all the time. It will get a little boring to hear playing straight through every thing - but these techniques will give you the ability to do that at your descretion.

Hope this clears up some stuff and gives you some stuff to work on.

[fourstringdrums]

Hey Caprisun - fourstring means well, but that definition isn't accurate. You can play straight through every division of 8th notes till the cow comes home if you want and it's still "broken 8th feel"


The notes are no longer "swing/swung/swang/sweng/swong/and sometimes swyng" they are STRAIGHT 8th notes. This is for uptempo playing - and that 8th note swing feel gets straightened around 190-200 bpms (roughly). The "skip" would be so miniscule and unnoticable...You just round it out to straight 8th notes.


Here's an exercise you can play right away to help understand it:

Take Stick Control:

Play excercise 1:

RLRL RLRL RLRL RLRL


NOW - keeping that same feel - play all R's on the bass drum and all L's on the snare - with the ride cymabl playing a standard "jazz pattern" but straight 8ths (hi hats on 2 & 4):


X.XX.X.XX.X.XX.X.XX
RLRL RLRL RLRL RLRL


Simple enough. You could think of it as being 16th notes if that helps you straightening out the notes to get away from swinging them...


Now - let's get more interesting with the same exercise:

RLRL RLRL RLRL RLRL


Let's say that all R's are both hands together - right hand on ride, left hand on snare
and the L's are the bass drum again with hats on 2 & 4

After that - let's say that R's are right hand on ride with the bass drum and L's are left hand on snare.


You can do all of these with hats on 2 & 4 and then after that do hats on all 4 beats - then do something completely different...Hats with the L's, for example...


Okay - after that...Let's play the exercise:

RLRL RLRL RLRL RLRL



This time with the bass drum back to being R's and snare with left hand as L's - but let's play a backwards ride pattern: 1 & 2 3 & 4


This is all just with the first line in Stick Control.

Now go to line 2...then 3, etc etc etc.


This is all "broken 8th note feel" - with every 8th note being played in a bar (each line is actually 2 bars of 4/4).

The notes are NOT SWUNG. The notes ARE STRAIGHT.

Jeff "Tain" Watts is a guy who does broken 8ths a lot. He does a lot of stuff with double paradiddles where the R's are the ride, and the L's are the snare and he'll put the bass drum with the ride (R's) or do a bass drum/hi-hat combo for each pair of "RR" in the para-diddle diddle (B=bass drum, S= snare drum, H=hi-hat):


RLRR LL (the spacing is just to align the two...)
BSBHSS


Yes - you will eventually want to leave notes out - you don't just want an endless string of 8th notes going all the time. It will get a little boring to hear playing straight through every thing - but these techniques will give you the ability to do that at your descretion.

Hope this clears up some stuff and gives you some stuff to work on.

Thanks for clearing that up. I had part of the picture but not all of it. So basically when you move a way from swung 8th's and straight playing straight, or in a jazz context, playing a swung ride pattern interspersed with just straight 8th's, those straight 8th's are a broken 8th note feel?

[Erik Lund]

"So basically when you move a way from swung 8th's and straight playing straight, or in a jazz context, playing a swung ride pattern interspersed with just straight 8th's, those straight 8th's are a broken 8th note feel?"


AH! Get that word "swung" out of there at the end!

Also - the ride does not stay consistently as a "jazz pattern" - that was part of the ride following the left hand or the bass drum, etc. What you just described is more the "bebop" thing from the late 40's/50's.

[caprisun3484]

you only use this at faster tempos right?

So is it basically since the ride pattern flattens out at higher tempos, your just sorta playing a variation not the 1 2 duh 3 4 duh, but something different. So it's "broken"

Is that right?

i think i can hear it in Jeff ''Tain'' Watts playing

thanks alot for the exercises

[dea]

I'm probably beating a dead horse as I normally do, but don't forget broken 8ths apply to rock/pop rhythms as well. I adhore randomizing them for periods as well, like during a chorus where one can play the last three counts only on the hat. Then when we go back into a verse, play 2 & 4 only, and sprinkle some 2&3s in strategically. It must be my alignment to avoid routine. With the hats, one can do crazy things but because of its relative volume level, it remains relatively subtle and hence not in our face. If it was in your face, it wouldn't work - at least for my taste.

I'm so silly-weird this way, but I like to straddle the fringes of the overall rhythm just a couple/three bars ahead of a chorus as a lead-in by poly'ing my hat and snare. For those couple/three bars, I will slowly - but evenly - begin to converge back onto the normal flow and be right there when the chorus begins. When played in a subtle fashion, it creates this feeling of chaotic-floating and then immediately followed by a feeling of comfort as the convergence back to the normal flow of things completes. After this one can follow up with an increase in the hats ( all 8ths ), or a slow down in the hats ( all quarters ).

Sound weird to ya?