A Natural Evolution, How to develop technique

[Wernervonwaltsleben]

Hey guys.i got me dave weckl's dvd, how to develop technique the other day and i think it's realy cool.but theres one thing about fingers that differs from drummers i think.he explains the wrists with the thumb sideways etc, but when he comes to the fingers he says that you must flip the hand to french grip cause thats the way the fingers work naturally.up and down, up and down.but alot of drummers such as joe morello,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CujyFrnsmGs

they keep the stick in the thumb sideways, wrist position.which one is the best.cause if i do a fast single stroke role and the sticks just moves freely in my hands at a fast tempo, my hand usually stays in thumb to the side position, so im using my fingers, or must i flip my hand the whole time to french grip and then use fingers.
is it correct if i do a fast single stroke roll that my wrists dont move actually but just my fingers and the stick is like loosy goosy in my hand.i think it's a weird dumb question, but yeah.fingers french grip or normal grip.(for double stroke sake also)

[kellycurrie]

Weckl could be right about that...

Its important to do what feels natural to you

[dea]

Remember. The French grip is the healthiest for the body since it alleviates the shoulder and wrist stress caused by turning the wrists down. This will help prevent carpel something for those who are pre-disposed to this syndrome. Also, with French grip you are more relaxed and that means higher speeds.

[Adam]

Remember. The French grip is the healthiest for the body since it alleviates the shoulder and wrist stress caused by turning the wrists down. This will help prevent carpel something for those who are pre-disposed to this syndrome. Also, with French grip you are more relaxed and that means higher speeds.

and it also means softer sound, less power, and I believe in the long run less speed...I'm talking "in general".

When you say French grip alleviates the shoulder/wrist stress, do you mean the stress that comes from German grip? I think "American" grip is probably the most natural, but I do find it leans towards the German approach a little more. All I know is any time I have my arms at my side and I bring them to a 90 degree angle, my wrists naturally tend to hang palms down ish...perhaps you could say american, but never french.

[Adam]

and it also means softer sound, less power, and I believe in the long run less speed...I'm talking "in general".

When you say French grip alleviates the shoulder/wrist stress, do you mean the stress that comes from German grip? I think "American" grip is probably the most natural, but I do find it leans towards the German approach a little more. All I know is any time I have my arms at my side and I bring them to a 90 degree angle, my wrists naturally tend to hang palms down ish...perhaps you could say american, but never french.

BTW...I wonder if Weckl will be angry to see free video clips on youtube. They'll probably be taken down soon, I'd imagine, unless they're available somewhere else online. That video is so helpfull though.

[Wernervonwaltsleben]

Remember. The French grip is the healthiest for the body since it alleviates the shoulder and wrist stress caused by turning the wrists down. This will help prevent carpel something for those who are pre-disposed to this syndrome. Also, with French grip you are more relaxed and that means higher speeds.

if you mean french grip, are you talking about finger technique now, cause if i play like just grooves and normal fills my thumb is always to the side.like the wrist movement.if i play with my wrist french grip, i think im hurting myself, cause that is not the wrist's natural movement.wrists dont move sideways, they move up and down.

but is it wrong to single stroke roll fast and keep your hands "german grip" but the fingers do most of the work? the faster i go the less my whole wrist moves.is that correct.

check the beginning of this vid at vinnie colaiuta's hands.his single stroke roll, his hands is perfectly relaxed.only finger movement, and when he makes the strokes louder and more aggressive the moves the whole wrist more.i think that looks natural, thats how the wrist moves, check his grooving also.wrist up and down, that looks relaxed.

but the thing im saying anyway is, if i play and do a roll like that i keep my hand in wrist position(thumb sideways) and for certain realy fast stuff i would turn my hand to french for fingers.can i do that?

[Adam]

if you mean french grip, are you talking about finger technique now, cause if i play like just grooves and normal fills my thumb is always to the side.like the wrist movement.if i play with my wrist french grip, i think im hurting myself, cause that is not the wrist's natural movement.wrists dont move sideways, they move up and down.

but is it wrong to single stroke roll fast and keep your hands "german grip" but the fingers do most of the work? the faster i go the less my whole wrist moves.is that correct.

check the beginning of this vid at vinnie colaiuta's hands.his single stroke roll, his hands is perfectly relaxed.only finger movement, and when he makes the strokes louder and more aggressive the moves the whole wrist more.i think that looks natural, thats how the wrist moves, check his grooving also.wrist up and down, that looks relaxed.

but the thing im saying anyway is, if i play and do a roll like that i keep my hand in wrist position(thumb sideways) and for certain realy fast stuff i would turn my hand to french for fingers.can i do that?

There are all kinds of wrists/fingers debates out there. The truth is that using fingers with German grip is probably the norm, or at least that I've seen it's the norm. To play french grip with ANYTHING but fingers will ravage your thumbs/arms/life. .

To answer your last question, Weckl does that; he switches to a more french approach when going really fast. I find German fingers much mroe comfortable but that's because I'm more used to it. I'm a wrists guy myself mostly.

[Drummertist]

Check out Pat Petrillo's philosophy. He doesn't use fingers or wrists or arms, but all three together to make each stroke relaxed.

I you start separating muscle groups then you can strain something or cause problems later. You can't forget that your fingers are connected to your hands; hands to your wrists; and your wrists to your arms. They should all work together.

If I want to take a step forward, I don't just use my foot...I use my whole leg. Same thing.

Oh...check out his new book Pat Petrillo's Hands, Grooves, and Fills. It's a great book and teaches from the ground up using a relaxed technique. Comes with a DVD and MP3/CD

[JCM]

My understanding is that American grip is the most natural position. If you watch the interview with Mike Mangini on the Modern Drummer Festival 2006 DVD, he says that french grip is useful up to a certain speed, beyond that he uses American grip. I'm more inclined to listen to him because he is the WFD champion.

[GetAgrippa]

I started traditional but now play match. Sometimes the traditional pops up again. The French grip is preferred by timpanist because of the finesse and finger control. German is used for power, and the American a hybrid and all around grip. I use any and all grips. I will sometime move my index finger on top of the stick in match. Just a quirk I developed over the years.

[PeartWeckler]

I started traditional but now play match. Sometimes the traditional pops up again. The French grip is preferred by timpanist because of the finesse and finger control. German is used for power, and the American a hybrid and all around grip. I use any and all grips. I will sometime move my index finger on top of the stick in match. Just a quirk I developed over the years.

There is a finesse that traditional grip gives that the others don't. And I think it has to do with the angle/placement of the hitting surface, that determines when to use it, as well as what type of music one is playing (usually jazz). Ideally, the best situation for controlling rebound is traditional grip on a playing surface that is angled away from the grip. Granted, you might get more stroke speeds, and more power, with match grip (American, German, French, take your pic). But, you can't get the dynamic control you can with traditional grip (and sustain it performance after performance, year after year, without some serious health issues in the neck and shoulder area).

Dom - who is a great drummer by the way - is an example of someone who has convinced himself to play match grip, yet when you see him play, his shoulders (and back) are stiff and tight and drawn up in a knot. Probably because he is also playing his left hand hihat with his left hand.

My argument for traditional grip goes like this: with the traditional grip, the elbow can be snug against the hip, maybe resting there, and all the effort needed to control the stick is still there, from the elbow down, and with much more finesse. So, why don't we play traditional grip in BOTH hands? Well, I think it has to do with the hihat placement, and how the drumset placement grew to be where it is. Notice that, when playing hihat/snare the conventional way (RH on left hihat, LH on center snare), that the elbow of the right arm can occasionally rest in the pocket of the hip and side.

I have other wonderful theories that one may be interested in hearing...

Steph

[Jeff Almeyda]

There is a finesse that traditional grip gives that the others don't. And I think it has to do with the angle/placement of the hitting surface, that determines when to use it, as well as what type of music one is playing (usually jazz). Ideally, the best situation for controlling rebound is traditional grip on a playing surface that is angled away from the grip. Granted, you might get more stroke speeds, and more power, with match grip (American, German, French, take your pic). But, you can't get the dynamic control you can with traditional grip (and sustain it performance after performance, year after year, without some serious health issues in the neck and shoulder area).

Dom - who is a great drummer by the way - is an example of someone who has convinced himself to play match grip, yet when you see him play, his shoulders (and back) are stiff and tight and drawn up in a knot. Probably because he is also playing his left hand hihat with his left hand.

My argument for traditional grip goes like this: with the traditional grip, the elbow can be snug against the hip, maybe resting there, and all the effort needed to control the stick is still there, from the elbow down, and with much more finesse. So, why don't we play traditional grip in BOTH hands? Well, I think it has to do with the hihat placement, and how the drumset placement grew to be where it is. Notice that, when playing hihat/snare the conventional way (RH on left hihat, LH on center snare), that the elbow of the right arm can occasionally rest in the pocket of the hip and side.

I have other wonderful theories that one may be interested in hearing...

Steph


I couldn't disagree more.

You're saying that matched grip leads to orthopedic problems over the long term whereas traditional grip doesn't? That's funny because if that was the case then your right would be affected when you play trad because the right is always using the German or American grip anyway.

So it's just when BOTH hands use the American or German grip that these problems begin to creep up? What a bunch of nonsense.

The hi hat position has nothing at all to do with the use of the traditional grip on the drumset. Your point about why we don't use traditional grip with both hands shows a basic lack of knowledge on the topic. Traditional grip came about because of the position of the marching snare on the hip. It just carried over to the kit. If you look throughout WORLD history and not just Western European and American history you will see that the matched grip has been used by percussionists since it all began. As a matter of fact, I believe that the evolution of the drumset was hindered by the traditional grip because it forced drummers to cross their hands to play the hi-hat.

I know Dom well and studied with him for 2 years. He is the most relaxed drummer and person you will ever meet. Your statement about him being tight and drawn up into a knot is possibly the worst evaluation of a drummer's motion that I've ever read. Dom moves like a cat. His dynamic range is incredible and he never needs to warm up. Does that sound like a tight drummer to you?

Oh yeah, let's hear some more of your "theories". I could use a laugh.

[MattRitter]

Wow, this thread is becoming pretty heated! Getting back to the original question, I wanted to mention that Jojo Mayer's DVD demonstrates how to use fingers from the German position. I think it works nicely, and it eliminates the need to rotate into French for finger playing.

Best of luck!

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[Erik Lund]

"My argument for traditional grip goes like this: with the traditional grip, the elbow can be snug against the hip, maybe resting there, and all the effort needed to control the stick is still there, from the elbow down, and with much more finesse. So, why don't we play traditional grip in BOTH hands? Well, I think it has to do with the hihat placement, and how the drumset placement grew to be where it is"

Well Jeff beat me to the whole thing about traditional grip. I really wanted to learn it, but after a while, and seeing drummers I really liked switching to matched when the *stuff* hit the fan, live - I decided against it, and realized that it was more of a tradition thing, rather than an actual plus.

"I believe that the evolution of the drumset was hindered by the traditional grip because it forced drummers to cross their hands to play the hi-hat."

My old teacher (who studied with G L Stone, Morello, Gladstone, and a ton of other pioneers of technique) played traditional his whole life - and one of the last things he had me work on before I moved on was playing the hats "open-handed" - He, at 70+ was really excited about starting to learn the hats open-handed as he was suddenly able to play all these wonderful things in his head without having to cross his hands up. I am ashamed to say that my crossed-hand drumming is still vastly superior to my open-handed, but sometimes I'll play open-handed as it reveals some really cool/funky differences in my limbs that sound great in the right context.

I started playing along to DJ Shadow's "Entroducing" about 4 years back, and there are a few uptempo songs that have 4-5 drum parts going on at the same time. For some reason - when I played "open-handed" I could adequately convey all of the parts, due to my right hand hearing/playing the snare drum instead of the left...



As for my own grip...


I started matched - and moved to a french grip with my right hand, and a 3/4th's (close to german) matched in my left. The french grip on my ride plays/sounds much better. I can get all sorts of tones out of my ride that weren't there with matched. I sort of started that on my own, but switched to all-matched when I was playing the drums. In my lessons with Nasheet Waits, he asked me why I turned the palm down to matched with the right when I moved to the drums. I had no real reason other than that was how I had studied my classical drumming...He told me to keep the same grip throughout with the right, and it has made a world of difference. My left started turning slightly up, and I noticed I could play faster and more relaxed

Part of that is that I have short upper-arms... A friend made fun of my in Europe when I was playing over there. No one had ever said anything to me, and all of the sudden he says "You're upper arms are extremely short. Are you aware of that?" My friends all burst out laughing - and when I brought it up with my friends back here in the states, they all said "I never noticed, but yeah dude - short arms!" My elbows are about 3-4 inches higher up on my body than other people, proportionately. That has a lot to do with my drum height/grip. Watching videos of myself, I feel like I look awkward even when the sound is smooth - and I think that has to do with my short upper-arms...

Anyway - whatever works for you works for you, I guess.

[Wernervonwaltsleben]

the information you guys gave makes it pretty clear. i think german fingers is the way to go, but like one said, for high high speeds i think french works.
sorry, i talked about a vinnie vid and i never gave the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkQgFXjvnO4

look at the roll in the beginning.thats full on fingers right?
and then when he increases the power its full on wrists.i just watched him holding his wrist the same the whole time.not turning anything.but it differs from people i think obviously.if i do something where my two hands do the same(stupid example, but blasting in metal genre for instance) i like to go to french grip for fingers.for jazz stuff, on the ride cymbal also.i have my thumb up then if i do fingerie stuff.
sorry for all this stupid stuff im saying i think, just scared that im on the wrong technique road or something.

[dea]

No. I'm saying that turning your wrists down causes undue stress on your wrists and shoulders. And this will slow your playing down.

More relaxed = more speed. Don't believe me. Then I suggest you read some literature on biomechanics.

I'm also saying that some folks are more pre-disposed to problems when putting this kind of stress on your wrists and shoulders of a long period of time ( when turning your wrists down ). Don't believe me. Than you'd better talk to your muscle/ortho specialist or you - if you are indeed pre-disposed - are going to be in for the shock of your life.

I don't play traditional much anymore. I find with my current config - which is not traditional by any means - I can be more relaxed with matched. I do turn my wrists down for short periods of time during certain fills or if it is required to move from one kit element to another.

[PeartWeckler]

I couldn't disagree more.

You're saying that matched grip leads to orthopedic problems over the long term whereas traditional grip doesn't? That's funny because if that was the case then your right would be affected when you play trad because the right is always using the German or American grip anyway.



Not necessarily so! The back does not have to be knotted up and strained if ONLY ONE shoulder is stressed (the right shoulder if right hand is non-traditional). Ever wonder what that strain is in your right shoulder after a long practice or performance? It's from the fact that the elbow has to move freely from one's side most of the time while playing non-traditional, and the shoulder has to support more arm weight as a result.

I'm sorry you don't like my theories, but I did say they we're theories, and my own.

Steph

[PeartWeckler]

I know Dom well and studied with him for 2 years. He is the most relaxed drummer and person you will ever meet. Your statement about him being tight and drawn up into a knot is possibly the worst evaluation of a drummer's motion that I've ever read. Dom moves like a cat. His dynamic range is incredible and he never needs to warm up. Does that sound like a tight drummer to you?

Oh yeah, let's hear some more of your "theories". I could use a laugh.

Dom played loud and played soft, but never mixed the two for any real length of time. This does not contradict someone who plays match grip... ie., to be able to play soft. But to play mixed (ie., accents and ghost notes etc), I do believe traditional grip is the only way to go at it.

As far as where traditional grip originated from, I think I was alluding to why it has stuck around for so long, and why the drumset has remained in a configuration of HH-SD-BD-RC for so long.

Non-traditional grip on one's dominant HH hand (assuming conventional drumset setup), is necessary for one very good reason: the dominant hand is responsible for hitting the majority of the drums and cymbals on the drumset, which are spread about so that a non-traditional grip is necessary for all the different stick angles and such. (Cymbals are usually hit on downbeats in music, and our dominant hand plays downbeats. Our dominant hand also "leads" in drum fills, and toms are ordered by pitch in order to follow the natural movement of our dominant-hand-leaded fills.)

What other physics do you want to get into here? I beg anyone to challenge me on this. What are your explanations for you theories? Don't just shoot someone down.

Steph

Steph

[PeartWeckler]

Part of that is that I have short upper-arms... A friend made fun of my in Europe when I was playing over there. No one had ever said anything to me, and all of the sudden he says "You're upper arms are extremely short. Are you aware of that?" My friends all burst out laughing - and when I brought it up with my friends back here in the states, they all said "I never noticed, but yeah dude - short arms!" My elbows are about 3-4 inches higher up on my body than other people, proportionately. That has a lot to do with my drum height/grip. Watching videos of myself, I feel like I look awkward even when the sound is smooth - and I think that has to do with my short upper-arms...

Anyway - whatever works for you works for you, I guess.

Absolutely! There is no hard and fast rule for everyone. But for ALOT of us, and I mean MOST OF US, what I said holds true. At least in the sense of playing music that is jazz oriented or groove oriented.

Steph

[Jeff Almeyda]

Dom played loud and played soft, but never mixed the two for any real length of time. This does not contradict someone who plays match grip... ie., to be able to play soft. But to play mixed (ie., accents and ghost notes etc), I do believe traditional grip is the only way to go at it.

As far as where traditional grip originated from, I think I was alluding to why it has stuck around for so long, and why the drumset has remained in a configuration of HH-SD-BD-RC for so long.

Non-traditional grip on one's dominant HH hand (assuming conventional drumset setup), is necessary for one very good reason: the dominant hand is responsible for hitting the majority of the drums and cymbals on the drumset, which are spread about so that a non-traditional grip is necessary for all the different stick angles and such. (Cymbals are usually hit on downbeats in music, and our dominant hand plays downbeats. Our dominant hand also "leads" in drum fills, and toms are ordered by pitch in order to follow the natural movement of our dominant-hand-leaded fills.)

What other physics do you want to get into here? I beg anyone to challenge me on this. What are your explanations for you theories? Don't just shoot someone down.

Steph

Steph


Dom never mixes loud and soft? C'mon, where are you getting this from? I myself spent months working on pull-outs and control strokes in matched grip with Dom. His ability to go from soft to loud and back again is one of his trademarks.

You yourself say that a non-trad grip is necessary for hitting the majority of the drums and cymbals because of the different angles. Why limit yourself with the other hand then? Frankly, I don't need to rest my left hand on my hip or whatever you say, I have never experienced the feelings you describe.

If the kit is set-up properly and the drummer has good technique then there should be no pain or undue stress. I put in 8 hr days on the kit between rehearsals and sessions and I have no problems.

If you like to play traditional grip fine but don't spread false info about the supposed dangers and/or imitations of a certain technique. I don't have "explanations for my theories" because they are not my theories. Anyone who knows my history will know that I studied with Morgenstein, Morello, Famularo, Verdi and Mangini over the past years. Not one of them ever said this about matched grip to me so as far as I see it YOU are the only one who has to show proof.

[PeartWeckler]

Dom never mixes loud and soft? C'mon, where are you getting this from? I myself spent months working on pull-outs and control strokes in matched grip with Dom. His ability to go from soft to loud and back again is one of his trademarks.

I went to see him in clinic form, as well as watched him on the TUDW videos. I don't believe he could properly execute a double paradiddle with accents and ghost notes.
Now this may be due to age, but I believe he did say he switched to match grip back in the early 90's, when he may have been hitting his 40's.

You yourself say that a non-trad grip is necessary for hitting the majority of the drums and cymbals because of the different angles. Why limit yourself with the other hand then? Frankly, I don't need to rest my left hand on my hip or whatever you say, I have never experienced the feelings you describe.

>>Again, what goes for the right does not necessarily go for the left, assuming conventional drumset setup where the majority of the drums are on one side (the dominant side) of the "body vertical". We can get into this if you want, but I believe this is self-explanatory by now. I'll add (as I've already added) that a non-trad grip on the non-dominant side, as you profess to play, is less efficient for jazz oriented and groove oriented music, simply because the hihat height and the inability to play ghost notes. Some youngsters can get away with it, but for the longterm, there will be repercussions in both neck and back strain.

If the kit is set-up properly and the drummer has good technique then there should be no pain or undue stress. I put in 8 hr days on the kit between rehearsals and sessions and I have no problems.

If you like to play traditional grip fine but don't spread false info about the supposed dangers and/or imitations of a certain technique. I don't have "explanations for my theories" because they are not my theories. Anyone who knows my history will know that I studied with Morgenstein, Morello, Famularo, Verdi and Mangini over the past years. Not one of them ever said this about matched grip to me so as far as I see it YOU are the only one who has to show proof.

I said they were my theories, but I also invited anyone to challenge my theories.
I'm impressed of your studies with the many top drummers. I have studied with
some less famous players, and I don't play professionally. But, that doesn't mean I don't know anything about drums.
And it also doesn't mean that these famous guys _do_ know anything about drums (Buddy Rich couldn't read).

I also commend you for playing 8 hrs a day. But you can play ANYWAY you want if you played 8 hours a day, 'cause your body would develop the fitness to put up with that. I don't think that is necessarily true as one ages (I'm guessing your less than 40 yo?).

Steph

[Wernervonwaltsleben]

i got this horrible shooting my pain in my right hand's finger the last couple of days.and all of a sudden my left hand is much more better and relaxed than my right hand.why now so sudden?

i get like a shooting pain type of feeling in my middle finger when playing.when im doing finger stuff, it gets worse.do any of you know what im talking about.its like the bone in my finger hurts.but my left hand is fine, but my right hand.nothing feels as loose and comfartable in my right hand as in my left hand.and ive been playing for five years, and im right sided.whats wrong and why the pain.is it something to do with my right hand's techniqe or just my hand.this realy sucks.its not very pleasant, if you start practicing drums and you fingers start paining from playing.

[Wernervonwaltsleben]

anyone....somebody..........anybody........help:-(

[Alex Luce]

anyone....somebody..........anybody........help:-(

You need to see an M.D. about the shooting pain in your finger. Also, compare your right arm with your left in a mirror. When you play single strokes, do they move identically? My guess is they don't. If you feel your left arm is relaxed and fluid, than try and match the motion with your right. If might take a few months or even a year to change your form, but hopefully it will result in a pain-free and natural drum stroke in both arms.

Good luck,

Alex