Drum damaged in shipping. Am I responsible? [Archive] - DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM

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fourstringdrums

07-22-2007, 09:47 PM

I recently sold my Gretsch Renowns on Ebay. I was already irritated because I got less than I expected, even though there were over 20 people watching it and I got alot of emails of interest and questions regarding it, it only received one bid. I made $150 LESS than an almost identical kit that sold the week before.

Now, to top that all off, the buyer just contacted me and told me that the bass drum was damaged during shipping. There is a small dent on the inside of the bass that was deep enough to crack the finish on the other side of the drum. Apparently it's located below one of the spurs or so, almost near the bottom of the drum. There are also some scuff marks on the inside of the bass.

http://www.handidrummed.com/DrumShell1.jpg
http://www.handidrummed.com/DrumShell2.jpg

This isn't the first drumset that I've packed and shipped, so I made sure that it was well packed, and even the buyer says that upon opening the box he didn't see anything that made him feel that the packing was not sufficient. The bass drum and 14" tom were in the same box. I had the 14" tom packed inside of the bass. It was wrapped in bubble wrap along the outside, and had cardboard and some bracing wrapped around it to minimize movement hopefully prevent damage (which apparently didn't work). The cardboard bracing I'm told has 6-7 tears in it which obviously allowed the 14" tom to damage the bass drum, even though it was also wrapped in bubble wrap.

So my question is, who is responsible? Both myself and the buyer feel that the package had to have been severely mishandled during shipping in order for the damage to occur. Hell, most drums I receive from the factory where one drum is packed inside another have LESS packing that what I used. Usually the internal drum is just in a plastic bag. But I'm concerned that UPS is not going to rule in our favor, due to the fact that the packing inside was damaged, that they'd feel that it's an indication that the packing wasn't sufficient enough? The buyer and I have agreed that if UPS doesn't come through, that I'm going to refund the $100 he paid in shipping costs. The dent in the drum doesn't affect the structural integrity, or the tuning/playability of the drum, it's purely cosmetic. He said that he is more upset with the fact that even though he got one HELL of a deal on the drums, that he didn't get the drums in the condition as listed, which I agree.What do you guys think?

That Guy

07-22-2007, 10:01 PM

OUCH! Thats a sticky situation my brother. You obviously are confident that the damage didn't happen when you had the kit. Its sad to even mention, but the guy could have damaged the drum just to get his $100 back. I'd be more skeptical on the dude you sold them to.

Ask yourself a question. How in the heck could that type of damage happen when you know for a fact that you did more than the basic factory packaging? If the damage is that bad on the drum, there would have to be some serious damage to the outside of the boxes that were used for the shipping which would be visible upon delivery, before opening.

When the buyer recieved the package he should have inspected the package before opening. Whenever I recieve a package from UPS etc, I always inspect the package before I sign that little electronic keypad they have. Once you sign the delivery document you are relinquishing UPS (or whatever shipping company) the responsibility for damage, from what I understand.

There is no way that you are responsible Rob. As long as you know in good conscience that you provided adequate protection for the drums... you are not responsible. Don't refund him anything. Especially becuase of the deal he got. Stand up for what you know you did to provide top notch protection.

larlev

07-22-2007, 10:01 PM

I had a similiar issue with my ddrum kit....The hoops where cracked and a large hole in the bottom of the box....The buyer needs to take ample amounts of pictures if there is any noticeable damage to the box....I wouldn't reimburse anything until the buyer takes and files a claim..who knows he might have dropped the damn thing and caused the damage.

UPS paid me $150 after I filed my claim...recieved the $$$ in 2 weeks

After looking at the pic...how could UPS have caused that indentation...makes me question the validity of the damage

kung_f00

07-22-2007, 10:26 PM

fourstringdrums

07-22-2007, 10:27 PM

Well, I don't think that he caused the damage. For the deal that he got, to go and damage a drum like that to get an extra $100 off is rediculous.

Just to make it clear, the inside of the bass was damaged by the floor tom that was packed inside of it. There is no damage to the outside of the box, only damage to the cardboard packing material that I had in between the floor tom and the inside of the bass. The buyer says that he thinks that the corner of the RIMS mount is the culprit as they line up almost exactly. Despite whatever packing job I did, the package HAD to have been dropped or jostled very hard for the floor tom mount to make a dent like that. Even if there was a slight amount of movement in the box (which there may have been, I don't remember, but the buyer doesn't feel there was), you'd still have to really forcefully drop the package or jostle it for it to make THAT much of a dent. The scuff marks I can see, a little ding, yes, but not a dent that goes through far enough to crack the finish.

I even wrote "THIS END UP" on the top of the box, so it makes me feel that they probably had the package on its side and it was dropped.

fourstringdrums

07-22-2007, 10:31 PM

I think that UPS could have been responsible, however the buyer needs to take pictures of the box. Even then I'm still skeptical -- this seems like damage that couldn't have been inflicted by UPS, unless they stabbed at it.

Honestly, if anything.. you're not responsible Rob. If the buyer recognized you stuffed it with packing material, then he is acknowledging you did all that you could. If UPS denies responsibility, then the buyer just has to live with it. Maybe he damaged the drums, maybe not, but you shouldn't face any of the blame because of that misfortune.

Oh, and let's just hope I don't have the same issue with those 12" hats. Kidding, of course. :P

Well, I still offered the return of shipping charges if UPS denies it because I don't like having unsatisfied customers and it very well COULD have been my fault, that I didn't secure the floor tom inside the bass well enough or have enough packing. With that possibility, I don't feel right telling the buyer "UPS denied responsibility, you're on your own". My rep as a seller is important to me and I'd rather not have the negative report.

...oh so you don't want me to rehammer the cymbals before I send them to you? :)

LayinDown

07-22-2007, 11:31 PM

This is why I insure every single package I send out, no exception. File a claim w/ UPS. They will either send a rep to inspect the package (doubtful), or request pics. I bet you get at least $100 from them.

Don't lose any sleep over it - these things happen!

That Guy

07-22-2007, 11:49 PM

Ok, I get ya. I didn't notice that it was previously stated in your post that the INSIDE of the bass was damaged by the tom that was packed inside. And, apparently it was only protected by cardboard insulation. Thats my fault for not being careful in my reading. And, for the buyer to think that the RIMS mount is the culprit, I would agree.

My mother in law used to work for UPS so I questioned her about this type of situation. She was an inspector in the QA dept, and she even acknowledges that she had witnessed and fired employees on many occasions because of deliberate and complete careless in the handling of packages. She even went as far to admit that when a package says... "Fragile" or "This side up"... some of the morons working thier will slam it on the ground, shake it, or even put it on the bottom of the truck when packed, just out of spite to the request of the sender. She even said... she quit becuase of the fact that she couldn't monitor ALL of the employees every second of her shift and the company was constantly receiving damage complaints that she coulnd't answer for.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

07-23-2007, 01:16 AM

Did you insure the package? With something of that value, to me, that would have been mandatory. If you paid for insurance it should be covered, otherwise I think you may have a hard time. If that's the case, I would opt to give the buyer a small refund.

My dad ships books all the time, many that are worth as much as drum kits. He always buys the insurance. I think there's only been a few instances where the books arrived damaged, and I believe insurance covered them all.

harryconway

07-23-2007, 01:19 AM

I've shipped a lot of drums UPS and a 4 octive concert marimba (what a nightmare that was). UPS destroyed a set of acrylic octobons and an 18" rototom on me. How you break a rototom, I don't know, but they did. Probably the damage to your box was during transit, and a load shift. A fall inside the truck or sudden braking. When you ship UPS, you're atomatically insured for $100. After that, the sender has to buy insurrance. $1 per hundred is the rate. So first question...was the kit insured for the full transaction amount? If you file a damage claim with UPS for the amount of the entire kit, UPS will pick up the entire kit. You get a check from UPS, you refund your eBay buyer his money, UPS keeps the broken drum set. If all you want is $100 refund because of damages, then it's up to your eBay buyer to be a good enough salesman to convince UPS that they, and not you, are at fault. I'd say be prepared to take the hit, but don't give up and hope for the best.

ermghoti

07-23-2007, 02:30 AM

Good for you, FSD. Even though it is not really your fault, it is not the buyer's fault in any way, and he would be justifiably angry if he were made to accept a damaged drum.

In the future, refuse to ship anything without insurance. Make it a condition of sale in the auction listing.

fourstringdrums

07-23-2007, 02:30 AM

The kit was fully insured for the entire amount paid....over $700. I insure EVERYTHING. If it's over $100, I make them buy the insurance because I don't want to be responsible in any way if I don't have to be. I spoke to the buyer and decided that I was only going to file a claim for the bass drum, valued at $200. I know a new bass is more than that, but because I shipped the kit in two boxes, each valued at like $385, and that was the only damaged drum, that seems most appropriate. He'll either have the $200 for his trouble, or that should be more than enough to get one on Ebay. Individual drums sell for ridiculously low prices on Ebay.

The tom was separated from the inside of the bass with bubble wrap, and enough cardboard to provide sufficient padding and limited movement inside the box, provided that the packaged wasn't severely mishandled, which it sounded like it was.

I'm hoping with the fact that I wrote "This End Up" on the box, that it will help the claim be issued because I indicated that the box is to only be transported facing one way, and by the damage it was obvious that it wasn't.

As for me paying back shipping charges if the claim doesn't go through, I know the consensus is that I shouldn't have to pay anything, but I really don't feel like I have an option unless I want to have a bad rep and have the buyer be screwed in this situation. It's not his fault either.

The Ploughman

07-23-2007, 07:30 AM

Last year, when I purchased the 1964 Red Wine Ripple Rogers kit, with hardware and a COB dynasonic, from a seller in Regina Canada, we worked out a shipping deal with Epek in Regina, and they shipped my drums. Everything was well wrapped, fully padded, all hardware had scads of bubble wrap, the drums were rolled in it, well packed in double heavy boxes. You could literally stand on the boxes. Shipping was 320.00. UPS had my drums for almost 3 weeks before they made final delivery. I sweated it the whole way. We paid the extra to insure them for 3,000. USD. The guys at Epiarch did an excellent job, I was very grateful to my seller for his coordination and the effort and time he spent to ensure the product arrived safely in California. UPS employees are not at all careful with the packages entrusted to them. Boxes are dropped, thrown, rolled off loading docks, allowed to fall 4+ feet........ they did probably damage your BD. Theres not a crap load you can do about it except file a claim.

fourstringdrums

07-23-2007, 07:07 PM

So I guess I'll just wait it out and hopefully UPS honors the claim. As much as it's doing a good thing, I really don't want to have to refund anything, but I don't see any other option.

Garvin

07-23-2007, 07:18 PM

You are a good person for even going through all this with the buyer. I don't like having bad feedback either, but I always specify that once they open it, it's theirs. Ebay can be such a hassle. I don't do my own packing either, I let the shipping folks do that and buy insurance. This is a very well documented case that you have. I don't think it's your fault either way. You obviously didn't do it. It was damaged in shipping. It's his kit now though. Good luck!

fourstringdrums

07-23-2007, 07:33 PM

Just Drums

07-23-2007, 08:08 PM

fourstringdrums

07-23-2007, 08:50 PM

I won't use UPS unless I absolutely have NO choice. The crushed a $1000 bass drum that was shipped to me. After weeks of phone calls from me and the seller, they only paid PARTIALLY of what it was insured for. I took the loss. I'll never use them again unless I have no choice.

I've shipped probably close to 100 things over the years through UPS and this is the first problem I have had. Never a damaged or lost package, and always delivered on time to where it was going.

I can't believe they only paid partially of what it was worth. You bought they insurance, you should get the money. I'm only claiming $200 so it shouldn't be an issue.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

07-23-2007, 11:09 PM

I think UPS should be responsible since you paid for insurance, but if they gave you flack, it would be the awesome seller sort of thing to offer a bit of a refund. I don't think it's your fault though.

Just Drums

07-23-2007, 11:31 PM

I've shipped probably close to 100 things over the years through UPS and this is the first problem I have had. Never a damaged or lost package, and always delivered on time to where it was going.

I can't believe they only paid partially of what it was worth. You bought they insurance, you should get the money. I'm only claiming $200 so it shouldn't be an issue.

That's what surprised me. The rim and reso had was crushed on the BD. No damage to the shell at all but the rim and a new new came to about $150. They only paid $55 and REFUSED to pay anymore. It was very frustrating. Yet, it was insured for $1000.

GRUNTERSDAD

07-23-2007, 11:54 PM

I found this statement on their website with their packing tips and instructions.

Just for info's sake.

Note: UPS does not provide special handling for packages with "Fragile", package orientation (e.g., "UP" arrows or "This End Up" markings), or any other similar such markings.

fourstringdrums

07-24-2007, 06:07 AM

fourstringdrums

07-24-2007, 05:27 PM

Ok, the buyer forwarded me an email with pics and description that he sent to UPS. As you can see by the pics, this was in no way my fault. I did a sufficient enough packing job where this should not have happened under normal shipping scenarios (unless normal is dropping packages).

You can see the bubble wrap and cardboard I used. The cardboard on the inside has alot of scrapes and dents, but no tears like I thought the buyer had described...nothing that should have inflicted the kind of damage that it did. The box in the one picture also looks stressed like it had been handled roughly and dropped. It's obvious to me by the pictures that the package was dropped and handled very roughly. Even given the damage, I still can't imagine how the dent and scuffs could have been possible unless the box was thrown around.

http://www.handidrummed.com/cardboard6.jpg
http://www.handidrummed.com/cardboard1.jpg
http://www.handidrummed.com/cardboard2.jpg
http://www.handidrummed.com/cardboard3.jpg
http://www.handidrummed.com/cardboard4.jpg
http://www.handidrummed.com/cardboard5.jpg

The Ploughman

07-25-2007, 01:04 AM

I have received square boxes before that became round by the time they were delivered.

mickeyman

07-25-2007, 07:16 AM

UPS always blames someone else. I bought a marimba that was damaged (it was part of the frame and would have had to have been dropped on something sharp for the type of damage that was caused or done purposely). UPS claimed it was not packed well enough and wouldn't pay.
Incidentally, I've heard the same stories about the carelessness, neglect and downright meanspirited behavior of some employees. I'd say go FedEx and if you have to UPS, never write "Fragile" on the box. It's like an invitation for these unprofessional a$$wipes.

I know why RMC Audio packed my Harts again in more boxes after they received and before shipped to me. They want to make absolutely sure UPS couldn't damage them.

fourstringdrums

07-25-2007, 08:04 AM

never write "Fragile" on the box.

I probably guaranteed the damage then by writing "This End Up" on the box. I knew never to write "Fragile" on the box as that's invitation for guarnteed mistreatment...and I heard that originally from a UPS driver.

Like I said, I'm hoping that because we're not asking for the full insured value, and only $100 over the automatic insured amount, that it will go through. Hell, even if they only offer him $100, that's still something. I have a feeling he'd probably try and get it fixed more than replace it.

dwlover

07-31-2007, 07:37 AM

Thats why I would and will never but anything used from ebay or anywhere that does not give 100% money back.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

07-31-2007, 02:21 PM

Any updates on this fourstring?

spleen

08-01-2007, 06:43 AM

I read fourstring's initial post last week and with my Yamaha MCAs en route, I thought "damn, I hope that doesn't happen to my kit."

Well, I just took delivery of my Yamaha MCAs yesterday and guess what? The box with the kick drum arrives with a big hole that had been punctured in the side of it! Un-freakin-believable! And while there was no major damage, there is a small gouge/scratch on the beautiful cherry wood finish that clearly came from whatever impaled the box. Needless to say, my excitement was quickly tempered by anger and disappointment.

The seller is now filing a claim with UPS and fortunately, he has promised to make it right with me regardless of how that turns out.

I'm just curious, do these kinds of things occur with all shipping companies or does UPS specialize in abusing packages?

spleen

The Ploughman

08-01-2007, 07:22 AM

i would rather ship post office than with anyone.

DestinationDrumming

08-01-2007, 04:14 PM

I'm just curious, do these kinds of things occur with all shipping companies or does UPS specialize in abusing packages?

In the UK our postal service will leave a parcel out in the rain on my doorstep and in full view of anyone who passes my house...we live on a busy main road where it oculd easily be stolen. When you ring and complain they say you need to write in and apply for a compensation form...can they send one out as a result of my telephone call...no! They need to have all correspondance logged in writing!

The only parcel carrier I have dealt with who do seem to give a hoot is DHL...but I'm sure there are stories out there to contradict!

fourstringdrums

08-01-2007, 06:18 PM

Any updates on this fourstring?

Yea...I was away for a few days, I just got home. I got a call last week from UPS saying that my claim was approved. Now I have to file a request for claim payment, indicating how much a repair or replacement would cost. The buyer is probably going to have it repaired. He knows someone who does repair work on guitars with finishes and what not, and was told that it would probably cost about $200.

I think at the least he'd get the $100 that the package was automatically insured for, but we'll see. I'll fill out the form and send it off tomorrow most likely.