How do you practise groove?

[gusty]

How do you do it? Just playing beats over and over to try and get a good 'feel' to them?

Or does it just come with experience?

[AlexM]

You'll really want to practice with a band, and more importantly a bass player. Its important to study Funk and attempt to replicate the things you hear, but you won't get the groove until you practice the pocket with a real player. Experience is the most important factor in anything you do in life, its what separates people! :-) Good luck man!

[gusty]

You'll really want to practice with a band, and more importantly a bass player. Its important to study Funk and attempt to replicate the things you hear, but you won't get the groove until you practice the pocket with a real player. Experience is the most important factor in anything you do in life, its what separates people! :-) Good luck man!

Im in a few bands, but, why is it important to study funk?

[khanedeliac]

Whether it is important to study funk or not is not so much the issue, rather that Funk is a style reknowned for dripping with feel and groove; I think that is why Alex suggested it.

It is a very sensible suggestion and learning Funk could definitely improve your groove, but I am one who believes that groove cannot really be taught, that it is something innate.

What makes you want to improve your feel, do you think your playing is too rigid?

Try all the suggestions Alex offered, plus play along to Hip-Hop tracks. Stuff by The Roots, Gangstarr and DJ Format all contain realistic, seriously groovy beats.
The way you have to strain to limit yourself to just laying it down between HH,BD and Snare will have you working.

Maybe cut your setup down to just those 3 components and a ride and practise on that for a while, just playing beats and a few embellishments.

[Wavelength]

Play as little as possible, but play with conviction. Listen to your hi-hat, snare and kick sounds. Is one of them too loud or too soft? Are the strokes consistent, or should they be consistent? Is the sound itself good? Does it feel good?

Groove comes with lots of practice and lots of listening. You need to feel good to groove well, and you need to listen to your playing and your body to groove well.

[gusty]

khanedeliac

But all styles have heaps of feel and groove, just depends what way you look at it. Why wouldn't you want to improve your feel? I want to get better, im just a little confused of how to.

WaveLength
Ok so...good frame of mind, consistent strokes..should i record myself just grooving? And just keep doing this, keep analysing myself and putting it up here for other to analise it? Does it just come from practising a lot? And is transcribing/learning songs good for overall playing? I'm transcribing erotomania (Dream Theater) at the moment, and im quite proud as this is the first song ive really transcribed..anyway, Im just wondering what its teaching me to do, and how its practical.

[Wavelength]

Should i record myself just grooving? And just keep doing this, keep analysing myself and putting it up here for other to analise it? Does it just come from practising a lot?

You should definitely record yourself and listen. Some things you just can't hear when you're playing, and listening to a recording helps you detatch from the actual performance and focus on the sound. Listening to your playing helps you find out what you need to change and improve through practice. Practicing grooving without listening isn't far off from being totally pointless.

Is transcribing/learning songs good for overall playing? I'm transcribing Erotomania (Dream Theater) at the moment, and im quite proud as this is the first song ive really transcribed... Anyway, Im just wondering what its teaching me to do, and how its practical.

Transcribing is very useful. You'll get very intimate with the song and its particular licks and phrases, since you'll be listening to them over and over again. When you move from transcribing to actually learning the song you'll develop a strong link between what you hear in your head and how you can create that sound with your body. Transcribing Erotomania has improved your listening skills, and learning the song will teach you new licks usable in the prog metal idiom and approaches to songs of that type.

...Then again, it's Dream Theater & Mr. Portnoy we're talking about, so you probably won't be using those 5/4 grooves and catch-22 fills in your run-of-the-mill pop song... :)

[gusty]

You should definitely record yourself and listen. Some things you just can't hear when you're playing, and listening to a recording helps you detatch from the actual performance and focus on the sound. Listening to your playing helps you find out what you need to change and improve through practice. Practicing grooving without listening isn't far off from being totally pointless.

Ok cool.

Transcribing is very useful. You'll get very intimate with the song and its particular licks and phrases, since you'll be listening to them over and over again. When you move from transcribing to actually learning the song you'll develop a strong link between what you hear in your head and how you can create that sound with your body. Transcribing Erotomania has improved your listening skills, and learning the song will teach you new licks usable in the prog metal idiom and approaches to songs of that type.

...Then again, it's Dream Theater & Mr. Portnoy we're talking about, so you probably won't be using those 5/4 grooves and catch-22 fills in your run-of-the-mill pop song... :)

You have a really good way of explaining things to a confused young drummer. Ah and I do hope to start a DT tribute band soon as me and my guitarist can find a bassist and a keyboardist who can play jordan and johns' stuff. lol, it will be hard.

[Mapex589]

It sounds like you are looking for an effective way to practice groove. I think practicing to a metronome is a great way to improve your groove. It has helped me a ton. I am not talking about becoming a human metronome, because that can be quite stale, but having the click to build your groove around has helped me a ton. Having good time will no doubt help your groove too. Lock into a groove and play it for 5 to 10 minutes without any fills and with very little variation to the groove itself (stay disciplined, it's tough!). You will begin to feel different ways to play the same thing. It is a very fun exercise and it will improve your groove. Good luck and I hope this helped a little.

[JCM]

Nutha J mentioned this in one of his teaching articles. He said sometimes you need to isolate the different parts of a groove in order to be on your way to mastering it, for example just playing the hi-hat and the snare or the snare and the kick. First internalise the essential parts of a groove, in jazz its the ride and the hats, in rock its the snare and the kick etc. Once you have these down, you will not have a problem adding the other limbs because the essential ingredients of the groove are already ingrained in your muscle memory. Listening to that particular type of genre of music also helps greatly, I listened to a lot of jazz before I began practicing different jazz beats and it was not difficult for me to swing because my brain recognised the style I was playing. Once you feel you have reached a level of prociency with said groove, playing along with authentic music will help you develop your feel and creativity. Tommy Igoe's Groove Essentials the play along comes to mind. That being said, does anybody know any software that allows you to remove vocals and or drums/instruments from a song?

[Wavelength]

Does anybody know any software that allows you to remove vocals and or drums/instruments from a song?

Drums are prominent throughout the frequency spectrum, and removing them from a mix is impossible. Vocals can be removed, if they are panned dead center -- hence the term "center cancelling".

[jazzsnob]

Practice your grooves for an actual sensible length of time. A lot of kids have played drums for years without ever actually playing a groove for 4 minutes straight. That's a little bit longer than most pop songs, so if you can't play every single beat you know for 4 minutes straight, well, you don't really know them. Since you are down with dream theater you should probably practice grooves for 6 or 7 minutes each.

[SickRick]

And is transcribing/learning songs good for overall playing? I'm transcribing erotomania (Dream Theater) at the moment, and im quite proud as this is the first song ive really transcribed..anyway, Im just wondering what its teaching me to do, and how its practical.

Without wanting to bash anyone here, I find this interesting: You want to learn about groove, feel and time and you transcribe DT songs?

These are just two different pairs of shoes. If you listen closely to that particular record, you'll find that the timing is all over the place - actually I find it so incredibly bad, I cannot believe that any producer would ever release that record. Really, I don't want to get into arguments here and I don't want to bash Portnoy. He is a good drummer with good ideas, but that record is just really bad groove- and timingwise.
It is funny: When I was younger (15-17 maybe) and hadn't listened to a lot of stuff, I didn't hear that and was a HUGE fan of that band and that record (I must have listened to that song thousands of times and have transcribed it as well, years back). Now, after years of listening, playing, writing, recording or say: being and working as a drummer, I hear these little mess ups and they annoy me.

I'm not saying that I would do better than him - most certainly I wouldn't. Just that much - and this is to answer your original question: The first thing to do when trying to become a better groove player, is to learn to distinguish between good groove and bad/no groove. The only way to do that is to listen to a lot of stuff and many different genres. If you like rock, you should check out Zeppelin, if you're more into prog/intricate stuff maybe Tool or Porcupine Tree. Then: Learn and transcribe that.

On the other side I have to say this: You are still young and at your age it is normal to not hear differences yet. So whichever path you choose to travel - if you are persistent and good at what you do, you'll come to the same conclusions sooner or later. There was a time in my life at which my biggest heros were Portnoy, Ulrich or Barker.... things certainly have changed up until today, but at that time I already knew guys like Porcaro or Gadd, but I thought: Portnoy is much faster and better than the latter two and anything these guys have played - he could as well. Hmmm.....

Sorry to be off topic....

My final advice:
Listen to a lot of good music
Practise SLOW with a metronome
Record yourself a lot and listen back critically
Play with many bands in many styles and try to play these styles accurately.

You seem to be interested and dedicated - so you'll most certainly be doing fine in the future.

[King Of Drums]

Most important thing is playing with other musicians and listening to music often. Thinking about drumming a lot helps too I find. You've just got to practice with people a lot until you can freely express yourself. Meaning you can think of what would sound perfect with the music and play it.

[JCM]

Drums are prominent throughout the frequency spectrum, and removing them from a mix is impossible. Vocals can be removed, if they are panned dead center -- hence the term "center cancelling".

Oh okay but I have heard that there is software that can allow you eliminate some of the other instruments?

[BellsOfRhymney]

How do you practise groove?
Play along with Earl Palmer.

[gusty]

Without wanting to bash anyone here, I find this interesting: You want to learn about groove, feel and time and you transcribe DT songs?

These are just two different pairs of shoes. If you listen closely to that particular record, you'll find that the timing is all over the place - actually I find it so incredibly bad, I cannot believe that any producer would ever release that record. Really, I don't want to get into arguments here and I don't want to bash Portnoy. He is a good drummer with good ideas, but that record is just really bad groove- and timingwise.
It is funny: When I was younger (15-17 maybe) and hadn't listened to a lot of stuff, I didn't hear that and was a HUGE fan of that band and that record (I must have listened to that song thousands of times and have transcribed it as well, years back). Now, after years of listening, playing, writing, recording or say: being and working as a drummer, I hear these little mess ups and they annoy me.

I'm not saying that I would do better than him - most certainly I wouldn't. Just that much - and this is to answer your original question: The first thing to do when trying to become a better groove player, is to learn to distinguish between good groove and bad/no groove. The only way to do that is to listen to a lot of stuff and many different genres. If you like rock, you should check out Zeppelin, if you're more into prog/intricate stuff maybe Tool or Porcupine Tree. Then: Learn and transcribe that.

On the other side I have to say this: You are still young and at your age it is normal to not hear differences yet. So whichever path you choose to travel - if you are persistent and good at what you do, you'll come to the same conclusions sooner or later. There was a time in my life at which my biggest heros were Portnoy, Ulrich or Barker.... things certainly have changed up until today, but at that time I already knew guys like Porcaro or Gadd, but I thought: Portnoy is much faster and better than the latter two and anything these guys have played - he could as well. Hmmm.....

Sorry to be off topic....

My final advice:
Listen to a lot of good music
Practise SLOW with a metronome
Record yourself a lot and listen back critically
Play with many bands in many styles and try to play these styles accurately.

You seem to be interested and dedicated - so you'll most certainly be doing fine in the future.

SickRick- We meet again. You probly don't remember our last encounter, but I learned a lot from that, and I've gotten A LOT more knowledge and skill on the drums, and I'm not so arogent(sp).

I think MP has a great feel for the drums. I haven't noticed bad timing on that album (i guess you can blame inexperience), and I think he grooves pretty well. But now that you pointed it out, I definately will go through and listen to it more thoughorly(sp).

You said if im "more into prog/intricate stuff maybe Tool or Porcupine Tree". Why not Dream Theater? If I had to name one band that I love to listen to, then it'd be DT. So- Can MP groove?

And I definatley can distinguish groove from no groove. It's really not that hard...or is it? I don't think so...but...could I be missing something?

Ok so...does just listening really improve your playing? And to be a bit off topic...I've got a set of TD-10's...can you groove on e-kits? Can you tell the difference between groove and no groove (on e-kits)?

[Mr. Pasquini]

You gotta get some soul. When I first started playing (a huge 9 months ago) all I wanted to do was learn to groove, so I did. I sat down and learned a 4/4 rock beat. Then I started to develop off of that. Just sit down and play a simple beat. Try to add in stuff. Vague but it's how I've learned.

[Drums558]

Just to add a thought that hasn't been mentioned, dynamics.
Groove requires good dynamic control between the limb's. Are you accenting the hat/ride correctly to create the groove? Should the kick and snare be the dominant voices of the groove? Are your ghost notes clean, quiet, and accurate. etc....

Accurate note placement with good control over dynamics are the main factors I concentrate on when practicing grooves.

Mike

[k3ng]

I haven't have had any problems with my grooving. And I suspect it's because I've been playing with as many people as possible in as many ways as possible.

Sometimes it's nice to take a same song, play it with different people and test out new ideas. You learn to find your groove within the song, and also the other musicians will help you develop the groove. Grooving can be a very subjective thing I believe. I'm not to say extremely experienced, but I do pride myself in having tried playing everything I could get my hands on. So I guess just go and play. Play with as many people as possible and play as many different things as possible. Experience will slowly build and strengthen your groove.

It is also nice to learn some of the somewhat 'famous' grooves that are littered all over the drumming scene. These will help you with your ideas to develop your grooving.

good luck and keep practising.

[khanedeliac]

Yes, all styles do have their own groove and feel,
but the dominant factor in funk playing IS groove;
therefore learning it should, improve your sense of groove.

Just as afro-cuban and latin styles might be practisced to imrpove one's inter/independance.

Then you could apply that to whatever it is you wish to do, with your new weapon added to your arsenal. I hope Im making sense....

However, If you are looking to play in a similar vein to Mike Portnoy, then I dont know if funk will help as much.
It could be the missing piece to your puzzle, who knows? Give it a shot anyway, maybe you will come back to prog and find it has aided your overall ability.

The previous comment about dynamics and voicings of each limb was right on the money.
Bonus Extra High score for you.

[Wavelength]

Sometimes it's nice to take a same song, play it with different people and test out new ideas. You learn to find your groove within the song, and also the other musicians will help you develop the groove. Grooving can be a very subjective thing I believe. I'm not to say extremely experienced, but I do pride myself in having tried playing everything I could get my hands on. So I guess just go and play. Play with as many people as possible and play as many different things as possible. Experience will slowly build and strengthen your groove.

Yep. Playing different music in various situations and with different people will do wonders to your confidence, and confidence is one of the key factors of sounding good and grooving well.

[drumtechdad]

You said if im "more into prog/intricate stuff maybe Tool or Porcupine Tree". Why not Dream Theater? If I had to name one band that I love to listen to, then it'd be DT. So- Can MP groove?

I love MP's playing, but I would never add him to a list of drummers who have great groove. In any case, hardly any of their songs has a "groove" that lasts more than a few bars anyway.

Gavin Harrison, on the other hand, has a groove with one of the deepest pockets around.

[gusty]

Can you groove on e-kits?

And thanks for the help everyone.

[Wavelength]

Can you groove on e-kits?

Yes, and a drum machine can also groove.

[khanedeliac]

Yes, and a drum machine can also groove.

Very true, Its all down to the sequencing and programming on a drum machine though, and learning when NOT to use the quantizing functions.

An electric kit wont stop you from grooving, the groove comes from the person, not the kit after all. While soome more refined touches wont have the same impact on a e-kit, you can still groove NQA.

[gusty]

Ok thanks.
20202020

[jazzin']

Many great replies with some food for thought. On a purely practical note I would say really concentrate on getting all of your strokes perfectly in unison. No flams whatsoever. Now you might think you're already doing this...but examine it in a micro sense first. Really try to develop exact strokes. Second would be dynamics. Dynamics play a much larger role in groove than a lot of people think. As a few people have already mentioned focus on your dynamic control. Groove can be learnt.
I would also agree with Sickrick that MP is probably not the greatest way to go if you want to get your groove happening. Do you like The Roots? Or some other new band with a hip drummer?

[gusty]

Many great replies with some food for thought. On a purely practical note I would say really concentrate on getting all of your strokes perfectly in unison. No flams whatsoever. Now you might think you're already doing this...but examine it in a micro sense first. Really try to develop exact strokes. Second would be dynamics. Dynamics play a much larger role in groove than a lot of people think. As a few people have already mentioned focus on your dynamic control. Groove can be learnt.
I would also agree with Sickrick that MP is probably not the greatest way to go if you want to get your groove happening. Do you like The Roots? Or some other new band with a hip drummer?

Wouldn't timekeeping be infront of anything else? But yeah thanks, definately will :D

Umm I'm now getting to really like the stuff on Porcupine Tree's myspace (get their new album maybe?)

[jazzin']

Yes of course timekeeping is first but I take that as a given that everyone would realise that is first. Talking of getting great timekeeping: practice with the metronome (of course) until you can no longer hear it. I know this is oft said but I don't think a lot of people actually practice it. By 'no longer hear it', I mean that your precision is so on the beat that it buries the click.

[Drums558]

[QUOTE=jazzin';339444]Many great replies with some food for thought. On a purely practical note I would say really concentrate on getting all of your strokes perfectly in unison. No flams whatsoever. Now you might think you're already doing this...but examine it in a micro sense first. Really try to develop exact strokes. QUOTE]

So true! When I am having trouble getting a new groove, pattern, or exersize to sound and feel good the problem is usually an alignment or accuracy issue. Slowing the pattern WAY down with a metronome helps me find the problem, then I can fix it.
I had touble playing samba's for years, the problem was an alignment issue. (unison notes)
I guess the answer to "How to practice groove" is practice slowly with a metronome and pay attention to all the little details, and be prepared to get very frustrated.(lol)

Mike

[jazzin']

Hehehe yep I'll agree with you on that!

[cwignall]

Start of with the most basic beat you can within the chosen time sig - say 4/4.

Single bass and snare hits (cos of playing fast i automatically double the bass and put off beats in but i force my self to simplify)

then every 4 bars ADD something small but new - like an off beat or choke or something. I highlted ADD cos to me a groove has the same underlying beat with funky bits added in.

When you have exhausted the options on hats bass and snare add a cymbal, exhaust the option then add toms and other cymbals.

eventually (after say an hour) the final peice is often very complex and groovy.

[dairyairman]

if you can, i'd recommend recording yourself grooving to a click. it's always amazing what you can hear on the recording that you don't notice while just playing. if you have any faults with your groove they will become glaringly obvious when you play back that recording.

[millerdakiller]

the better question is how do you spell practice? Seriously though just try and find other people to play with. Or play with recorded music, especially funk.