Gibraltar Catapult

[Rockingfreakapotamus]

I Recently purchased myself a brand new bass drum pedal: The Gibraltar Catapult.

Having read plenty about this product in various drum mags I was fairly interested in it.
So yesterday(Monday) i was in Glasgow getting some stuff for the snare im making and then going to the flicks to see Shrek 3 (which is crap, incidentally), I dropped into my local drum store and seen the pedal on sale at a meagre 99 quid (about 180 dollars?)
I asked if i could give it a shot and so they threw me onto some old beat up Roland to batter away until my heart was content.
I didnt get as long trying the pedal as i wanted 'cause my girlfriend was rolling her eyes and looking mighty bored. So i decided that i might aswell stop being a tight arse and buy it, and i must say. Its awesome.
When i got it home i put it straight onto my Gretsch and gave it a whirl.
Needless to say it takes some getting used to and as far as adjustability is concerened, there isnt a wide scope for getting it perfect.
The action is not exactly tight but i have played faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar worse, and its smooth, like its made of oil or water.
It has a rediculously large footboard and no heel plate which is awesome for me as i have big feet ( ahem ) and i also play heel toe like oor JoJo.

So, verdict you ask?

Awesome pedal that takes getting used too, has nice action and is big for those who play heel-toe and are well endowed (in relation to feet). This pedal also, contrary to popular belief, does NOT cost two limbs and a pledge to the devil, it was only one hundred of the Kings Own Pounds (Sterling)

So if you are thinking of buying one, try it out first cause its not going to be to everyones tastes.

Does anyone else own one, tried one or HATE them? pics and discuss.

Heres a pic.

[fijjibo]

From what I heard they make the bass drum sound real loose and baggy....
lol, msn for ya...

Seriously, this pedal looks so awesome - I tried on in a music store and didnt fall for it, but its very unique.

[fourstringdrums]

How exactly does the pedal function? It looks like the footboard has a roller on it and it slides down the beater bar that is connected to a spring, and that pushes the beater forward, and when you let up on the pedal, the beater bar comes back and that pushes the footboard back up?

Is the spring tension the only thing adjustable on it?

[Rockingfreakapotamus]

How exactly does the pedal function? It looks like the footboard has a roller on it and it slides down the beater bar that is connected to a spring, and that pushes the beater forward, and when you let up on the pedal, the beater bar comes back and that pushes the footboard back up?

Is the spring tension the only thing adjustable on it?


Yeah it works on a "unique bearing drive" system. When you apply pressure the bearing roll's towards you, forcing the shaft away from you and striking the surface of the drum.

And yes, as far as i can tell the spring is the only thing adjustable but i aint had a propper look over it yet, so i may be wrong.

x

[jeremiah]

I played around with one. Not my cup of tea. Seemed kinda gimmicky.

[Les Ismore]

And yes, as far as i can tell the spring is the only thing adjustable but i aint had a propper look over it yet, so i may be wrong.

We see you have your spring MAXED out. When I tried one of these pedals I maxed out the spring and still it wasn't strong enough to make anything happen comfortably. Had Gibby made the pedal board bearing adjustable forward/back, that would have given at least some beater angle adjustment.

And how about the turning/clamping power of the round knob that clamps the pedal to the hoop ? Ooooouch! They should'a used a T- bolt, way more torque with less effort.

The jury is still out on the build quality of this pedal. Get back to us after you put a thousand hours on it, we're curious to see if it falls apart by (before) then. I pedict the base of the 'beater/main stalk' will give way long before then. Even new, the stalk has too much slop at the base. When the stalks pins and holes ware-out some, I can see it breaking there.

This from Gibby's site:The Catapult Linear Motion pedal is designed to provide true response from the players' foot to the playing surface of the bass drum using natural ankle motion thus avoiding muscle fatigue. The mechanical advantage of the design is in harmony with the biomechanics of how the foot wants to work.

I like the last line The mechanical advantage of the design..... Lets see, the pedal board moves 'up and down' not side to side or forward/back. Up and down, just like any pedal. They go on to say conventional pedals use 'springs' to create resistance which causes fatigue. I guess they forgot they put a spring on this pedal, or maybe they don't think you'll notice. They go on to say:The mechanical advantage of the design is in harmony with the biomechanics of how the foot wants to work.

Wow ... big words for drummers to comprehend, well probably what they're hoping anyway. Do you need med school to figure out the foot is limited to the working movement of the foot board, which is 'up and down'? No matter what the foot may 'want' its limited to the motion of the foot board. If you use the same spring tension on your conventional pedal, no fatigue. This pedal has very little spring tension, even maxed out. A lightly tensioned 'conventional' pedal is pretty easy to play, once you adapt to its limitations. Watch for a flood of peeps dumping these pedals on ebay in the comming months.

Why would anyone want to be a slave to any drum pedal that's not adjustable (save for simple spring tension and beater height)???? Please explain yourself.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

The spring tension and the pedal beater height are all I see adjustable. Cant Imagine why the technology would go backward on this. The principle is OK but without footplate angle and beater angle, I can't see it being on the market long unless it is so cheap that it becomes a beginner model. I also don't see it ever adapting to a double pedal model, not that that is necessary but the option would be nice. I have no complaints with their hardware but wonder if this was rushed to make it to the next drum show.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

QUOTE: Yeah it works on a "unique bearing drive" system. When you apply pressure the bearing roll's towards you, forcing the shaft away from you and striking the surface of the drum.

Actually the way the pedal is made, when you push down on the foot plate, the roller moves away from you in an arc, toward the curved piece, that holds the pedal beater rod. This arc pushes the bar away from you, and because of its reverse curve, causes the beater rod to also move forward. I need to study this some more but it seems that these two arcs, the one the roller travels and the one the curved rod travel, would make this pedal slower than a normal pedal. Normal pedals have a chain, strap or direct piece that works on a cam or an axle which reduces the amount of travel for the beater. I may be wrong but it seems this pedal may take a lot of vertical foot travel to get the beater to the drum head. More studying to follow.

[Mapex589]

I am suprised you like this pedal(that is not an attack on you BTW). I tried this pedal at my local shop and was not impressed. It felt very strange and very uncomfortable, like I would have to re-learn my pedal technique. You are the first person I have heard say they liked it. I am glad you like since you spent the dough on it....I do hope it works out for you.

[harryconway]

Like i said before, if i tried it and didnt like it, i wouldnt have bought it. Simple....Anyway, i sensed that this thread was becoming hostile in a subtle way so im going to say this...


I'll probably buy one eventually, whether I like it or not, simply becaise it's so unusual. Being I own a Speed King, a Ghost, and a Tama HP55...not because I use them, but simply because they're all Direct Drive pedals. You are right, different strokes for different folks. A buddy drummer of mine has owned and played the DW 5000 and 9000, the Axis, the Iron Cobra and a host of others and he keeps going back to the Ludwig Speed King. And he's got a really fast right foot. John Bonham, Ian Paice and Carl Palmer all played Speed Kings, as well as countless 1000's of other drummers. Still in production, and if you modify it by mounting it onto a floor plate (which I'm suprised Ludwig hasn't done), it's even more effective.

[joeysnare]

hey guys just thought id throw a lil bit in here,i work in auto body,i work with metal all day,and ive tried the pedal.the way its set up no matter what its made out of this thing is a money pit,horrible design.seems like it was built for two purposes looking kinda cool and breaking down.where the spring is placed is the completly wrong spot for any type of resistance and or responsiveness,and look at how the foot board is anchored.if you have perfect techniqe it might last, if you come down perfectly straight on the pedal.but if your a newbie who has slight side push motion,or a high speed player that heel rocks you'll have that footboard ripped out in no time.honestly the materials and and design dont support the intended use adequetly.

[Rockingfreakapotamus]

I'm quite sure it would be possible to put a heavier spring on it..

I am confused they couldn't come up with a way to adjust beater angle...


You can.

And so am I.

I was thinking about putting a heavy duty spring on it, maybe from the Eliminator i have kicking about somewhere (no pun intended).

xx

[Les Ismore]

I'm quite sure it would be possible to put a heavier spring on it..

Just like I'm quite sure yor asking for trouble if you do. The black piece at the bottom of the spring between the finger nuts is plastic. What will you do if it breaks?

Good luck getting parts from Gibby, especially that one. That piece of plastic is rated for the stock spring. I honestly can't say I'm positive, but I'll bet money the plastic piece has no metal thread insert, just a screw through the bottom plate into plastic threads.

[joeysnare]

sorry if i didnt clarify.i meant and side to side motion (left to right) that it would eventually put to much strain on the singular bolt that anchors the footboard,but if this pedal is working for you,then thats great dude.i just can't see it lasting very long with out perfect up and down techniqe.

[Just Drums]

I had a demo brought in to me to try. I didn't care for it. It was smooth but didn't quite feel right. Plus, the footboard sits back about 4" further than most boards so you would have to move your BD further away.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

For 30 dollars less you can have a well built Vexdrums.com double pedal sent to your door with no shipping costs. Thats two pedals for the price of this innovative idea.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

I got this in my email today from the designer of the pedal. I'm not sure why he felt like I was looking for information because I still feel there are design flaws and really don't need to spend the money to experiment with it, but in the spirit of fairness will reprint his letter as he has requested.

His name is Mark Orr.. Which may be why he put an extra R in flexor muscles. Just a Joke there. Here is his letter.



Hey There,
I was reading your comments about the Gibraltar Catapult and would like to make a couple of pointers with you since you were looking for some info.
As the original designer of this pedal I have some valid info.

The pedal does not require adjustable componentry simply because it will not benefit the player. I carried out a lot of research to come up the geometry that plays best.
When using the pedal for the first time, try and feel the return motion (rebound)the same way we have the feeling of a drum stick rebound in our hand. Spring tension is not the problem.The larger the spring, the more resistance you create and that reduces sensitivity and playability.

Most people have developed fatigue in the flexorr muscles(at the front of the lower part of your leg) because the return springs on conventional pedal designs. This is why the pedal feels very light under the foot. If you can start to work with the rebound lifting your foot rather than expecting the spring to push your foot up for the rebound, things start to improve.

I have been using a prototype for 18 months now and it has not had any breakdown. There are no weak spots in the design. I have had many people comment on how they could break this pedal but honestly, with all the heavy playing I have done with this pedal there has been no incident.

The Hoop clamp screw was made deliberately simple because the design has proven that it does not have to be clamped to the hoop with enormous load / clamping strength. It is easy to think that since conventional designs seem as though you need to bolt the pedal to the hoop, that the Catapult requires the same clamp. This is not the case. Because of the base plate set up, there is very little clamping force required. (fact) It also prevents damaging the hoop!

The beauty of the design is also the height adjustment where you do not have to change anything but the height. I personally think that is a huge plus. The pedal plays the same through all dynamic ranges no matter what height of the beater.
As far as speed of the pedal, use both feet on the single pedal (like a double pedal and work with the rebound) and see how fast you can play . Personally I can develop the fastest playable movement of any pedal I have ever seen.
I feel people looking for more adjustments are fishing for a pedal response that does not exist. The feeling that can be achieved from endlessly adjusting components some don't fully understand helps them feel as though they are improving their playing.

There is nothing to adjust but the mind set and work on the rebound the same way you do with a drum stick and watch you playability improve in the next 6 months.
Nothing happens over night.
By the way, I am working 0n the double pedal which should follow in the next year or so.
Hopefully you can pass this info on to the world of Drum Forum readers. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time to spend talking about it online but I thought I would let you see what perspective I have.

Hope this helps
Regards
Mark

[GRUNTERSDAD]

and this was my reply...

Thanks for your email. By reading the other forum members impressions of your pedal and from what I can tell from the photos, I still have issues with the design. I play heel down and not heel up so this pedal would work for me in this regard. I don't think it would work as well nor be as fast for the heel up players since you can't adjust the amount of travel by adjusting the beater angle. That being said I don't carry a big enough wallet to afford to experiment with a new design, but if you cared to send me one, on loan, for a period of time, decided by you, I will be glad to write a truthful review of my findings and return the pedal. I will post my findings in the Drummerworld forum which has over 12,000 members so that all can benefit from my trial.

Thanks,
Johnny Getz

[harryconway]

Way to go Gruntersdad. Gibraltar and/or Mike Orr needs to get this info. out into the real world. A web site would be nice 'cause honestly this alone http://www.gibraltarhardware.com/?fa=detail&mid=2114&sid=563&cid=26 doesn't sell me.

[Les Ismore]

Hope you get a demo GRUNTERSDAD.

Well people, this is one mans interpretation of what a drum pedal can be, though the market has yet to speak.

I feel people looking for more adjustments are fishing for a pedal response that does not exist. The feeling that can be achieved from endlessly adjusting components some don't fully understand helps them feel as though they are improving their playing.

That just about said it all.

BTW I've found very desirable responce 'with' the help of adjustments, as you improve your technique, you fine tune your adjustments. In the future I'll rely on being able to make any adjustment my improved technique may require. With Catapult, its a dead end, you can only get that good, it won't let you improve.

[fourstringdrums]

Way to go Gruntersdad. Gibraltar and/or Mike Orr needs to get this info. out into the real world. A web site would be nice 'cause honestly this alone http://www.gibraltarhardware.com/?fa=detail&mid=2114&sid=563&cid=26 doesn't sell me.

What was their reasoning behind the design of that beater? I can't imagine you can get a very full sound from it.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

My concern with beater angle is that there is no cam so there is no adjustment to put the beater closer to the head when it is at rest.
You may get some of this with the Catapault by lowering the pedal beater, but then that may not be the sweet spot on your drum head, meaning it may be off center or depending on the size of the drum head, from 18 to 26 inches, you may end up with a short pedal to get the speed you want. You may be hitting 4 inches below center on a 26 inch drum.

[fijjibo]

Gruntersdad - that is so weird!!!

I just got the same email from him.....

I sent him a nice reply though - but you beat me too it posting the letter.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

I would assume he has a lot of time and money invested in his pedal and wants to see it sell. Can't blame him for that. I'm not sure if he is a Gibraltar employee or sold them the exclusive rights, but I will give him an honest appraisal of his product should he decide to send me one, and I will post that and photos if he wishes. I have field tested fishing tackle and camera gear in the past and if he wants to trust me to do the same for him I would be more than happy to. He can have the rights to my photos and appraisal also if he wishes.

[Rockingfreakapotamus]

Gruntersdad, thanks for posting on that email on this thread, its turning out to be very informative reading on such an inovative piece of technology with, seemingly, a lot of flaws.

you may end up with a short pedal to get the speed you want. You may be hitting 4 inches below center on a 26 inch drum.

At the beater length i have it on at the moment, its exactly at the middle of my bass drum, and there is still a few inches off leeway.
I take on board what your saying about speed and length of the pedal, and that would be a sacrifice on an overlarge bass drum like mine, by missing the sweet spot.

Laying any bias on my part aside, i believe this pedal to be lagging slightly as opposed to normal strap, chain or direct drive pedals.
A Friend of mine, who is doing a degree in engineering pointed out to me is that the beater is being PUSHED towards the bass drum head, whereas on traditional pedals, the various drive systems are PULLING the beater towards the bass drum head, and as many opinions and the email above state, its a biomechanical advantage to the muscles in your leg.
Also i have noticed that the sound of the bass drum changes considerably when using this pedal.
While using my eliminator pedal, the sound is more sharp, punchy, whereas with the catapult is more baggy and loose sounding. I believe this to be caused by the sheer force of the pushing motion of the leg, as i play heel up. This is a technique fault on my part, but it does affect the overall sound nonetheless.

Hope this helps, anymore comments are appreciated.

x

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Have you tried putting a beater from another pedal on this pedal. That wide flat surface intriques me into wondering if that is the reason for no punchy sound.

[Rockingfreakapotamus]

You are thinking of the beater that appears in most of the promotional pictures i am sure, the disk like beater?

The beater on the ACTUAL pedal is infact, the same beater that appears on the Intruder Series pedal, just a normal dual faced beater.

The promotional pictures are quite misleading in that respect.

x

[GRUNTERSDAD]

So its half hard felt and half hard plastic. Thanks for that bit.

[fijjibo]

I would assume he has a lot of time and money invested in his pedal and wants to see it sell. Can't blame him for that. I'm not sure if he is a Gibraltar employee or sold them the exclusive rights, but I will give him an honest appraisal of his product should he decide to send me one, and I will post that and photos if he wishes. I have field tested fishing tackle and camera gear in the past and if he wants to trust me to do the same for him I would be more than happy to. He can have the rights to my photos and appraisal also if he wishes.

Same here.

But its not an excuse for a free pedal mind....

[Rockingfreakapotamus]

In the UK it is, maybe not overseas.
The beater in the pictures does not look like an idea most of us would entertain.

x

[harryconway]

Here's a cat on eBay (music store) selling the pedal for $119 and free shipping. http://cgi.ebay.com/GIBRALTAR-CATAPULT-LINEAR-MOTION-SINGLE-BASS-DRUM-PEDAL_W0QQitemZ320140624893QQihZ011QQcategoryZ4145 2QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem No doubt, wait long enough, one for 3/4 or 1/2 that will appear.

[Spec]

Yes it was a muscular skeletal joke with my name - well spotted!!!!
It is great to see the drumming community want to know more about innovation and design
In every sense, Gibraltar are an amazing Company that is willing to invent and design new equipment making untold possibilities in developing techniques for the Drumming community.
I will say that like all new things, in the beginning it needs to established if the product has merrit. I believe if a Compnay like Gibraltar get behind the product and continue to develop this, we will see a future Catapult with all sorts of variations.
I have many variations in mind for the design but discovered less is more.
Just so you know ,
The beater is not an integeral part of the pedals function. If you dont like it , change it to one that suits you. There are lots to choose from. I dont know why Gibraltar chose this large pancake beater but I tried one for myself only yesterday and did not like what it did for the rebound response and the volume of the bass drums. But its only a beater!!! Change it
How ever, they must have their reasons. I shall let you know .
A friend of mine George Vich holds the Guiness record for the fastest drum rolls etc...Played with Johnny Rabb here in Australia and has regularly involved himself with my design. He is the fastest heel up and down player I have experienced and his comments show that there are no limitations to the possibilities for dynamic precision control,speed and endurance. Other Pro drummers in Aus that like it are: Darren Farugia, David Jones, Andrew Gander ,Karl Lewis they all helped in my prototyping and are amazing proferssional players and teachers of this art.
Please understand, we have been using the prototype for 18 months now and have not had any problems.
I can seriously understand that some drummers feel that they cannot strike the drum hard or fast enough but I am speaking from experience and not to convince those to purchase.
The pedal plays so well when your flexor muscles begin to work as they should.
We tested the muscular control with MBS Fitness and results show an improvement to this group of muscles. I think we shal put a movie on youtube to show our progress with playing this pedal.
I can strike the drum so hard, I feel the head will break if I am not careful. Remember the force of your stike is directly proportional to the amount of load you can produce from your leg/ foot and that has nothing to do with spring tension , rebound or length of travel.
If you feel there would be an improvement to power by increasing the length of stroke - not really since the stroke length is determined by footboard height and placement. If the stroke was longer the footboard angle would increase and no one want a rediculous angled board.
Also the fact that there would be foot board length issues for that matter.
In prototyping, I made a longer stroke, shorter stroke, different beater angles. I had it tested by pro players until I came up with the right angles and lengths to have a NATURAL RESPONSE - no added acceleration or power.
I thought it is best to improve my playability and not use any outside influences or componentry to complicate what should be natural. The same way we use a drum stick - with no outside influence just you and the instrument.WE ALL LEARN ABOUT THE REBOUND OF A DRUM STICK AND LIFTING YOUR YOUR HAND . NOW TRY IT WITH YOUR FOOT. i FOUND IT EASY TO BURY THE BEATER BUT THEN QUICKLY LEARNED TO PLAY OFF THE REBOUND . WHAT A DIFFERENCE !
Isnt this what playing drums is about ? Being at one with your instrument and being able to express your self through experimentation and innovation.
I could build a pedal that plays accelerated or increased power but that does not offer true defined playing. I know its not for everyone however atleast there is now a choice in the mechanical aspects.
For those interested in developing the control (as we do with our hands), I can only suggest to go to your store and test it over and over. Not 10 sec tapping convinced it has no power and Lags!
How can it lag? It has direct motion nothing in between. If the rebound is not what you expect then work on those muscles. You have to learn not to bury your foot and prevent the rebound from responding naturally fast.
I hope this is true to its readers as I intended no disillusion about it being better or worse and offer my honest opinion from an engineering, anotomical and drumming background.

All the Best and Keep On Drumming!
If you have any suggestions email Gibraltar they are ready to listen....
I suggest if you want to write a review after testing a pedal, contact Gibraltar Hardware as I have no sample to offer sorry.





and this was my reply...

Thanks for your email. By reading the other forum members impressions of your pedal and from what I can tell from the photos, I still have issues with the design. I play heel down and not heel up so this pedal would work for me in this regard. I don't think it would work as well nor be as fast for the heel up players since you can't adjust the amount of travel by adjusting the beater angle. That being said I don't carry a big enough wallet to afford to experiment with a new design, but if you cared to send me one, on loan, for a period of time, decided by you, I will be glad to write a truthful review of my findings and return the pedal. I will post my findings in the Drummerworld forum which has over 12,000 members so that all can benefit from my trial.

Thanks,
Johnny Getz

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Well Mark as I previously stated I don't have the funds to buy and test your pedal, so I will rely on those that wish to give it a chance. As someone who likes to dabble with products myself, I wish you nothing but success in this endeavor and as a drummer with some Gibraltar hardware pieces that are top notch, I am sure that Gibraltar has faith in the product and I guess only time will tell. Thanks for your time and for allowing me to post your email in this forum and for your own post. Now lets go throw some shrimp on the barbie. Peace.

Johnny G

[harryconway]

I think that's very cool. That the cat who invented the pedal is reading this forum, taking note of what people say/think, and then even takes the time to post here himself.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

What better source for manufacturers to find out what drummers want and what they think of their products. Television shows are made and broken by 1200 viewers Neilson raters, and here is an audience of 12000 or so users..Companies pay big money for information like this.

[harryconway]

Companies pay big money for information like this.

Did you make any money off this? I didn't get paid! Maybe we just don't know the right people.

[fijjibo]

Did you make any money off this? I didn't get paid! Maybe we just don't know the right people.

Lol.

Reading this forum is the best source of free information of what drummers think of products.

Thats why we dont get paid......

[Les Ismore]

You have to learn not to bury your foot and prevent the rebound from responding naturally fast.

We would have to do a little survey here to see how many drummers 'bury their foot' into the bass drum head, it seems that's going to be the market for Catapult. (BTW Mark, being from OZ, did you think of naming it 'boomerang' )?

Kit drumming is all about balance. When your sitting on a stool it doesn't matter if your high, low, or at knee level, your going to balance your body with one of your feet.

People who pull the beater off the bass drum head are going will have to balance with their opposite foot and that's usually the hi hat.

I myself bury the beater in the bass head. This allows me to play my hi hat with my other foot, which is critical to my playing. If my hi hat isn't keeping time (1/4 or 1/2 notes, sometimes 8's), I feel like Im not playing the drums. Involving all my limbs creates a 'free'er' feeling, a sense of completeness, every appendage is contributing to the keeping process with a sound. In order for me to let the beater come off the bass head, I would need to balance with my HH foot killing the process. I play 90% heel up.

If you watch drummers play (check out You Tube as an example), the ones that don't bury their bass drum beaters do not keep time with their foot on the hi hat, this is exclusively true when the person is playing 'heel up'. Not many drummers play the HH constantly-in-time while doing fills.

What better source for manufacturers to find out what drummers want and what they think of their products. Television shows are made and broken by 1200 viewers Neilson raters, and here is an audience of 12000 or so users..Companies pay big money for information like this.

People would be surprised what and how many drum co's are reading this and other forums.

It's nice to see Gibby taking a chance on new stuff. With the market what it is, or better yet, 'what it's become' I still see Catapult's having a hard time finding home's and getting work. Better start pumping up the artist roster. A You Tube vid may convince some buyers along with a name pro using one on tour and getting it seen in their set up in the rags. As drummers we pretty much feel insulted when we read a drum rags review of stuff submitted by the same people who pay the wage, for the most part, these reviews are always biased.

[fourstringdrums]

You have to learn not to bury your foot and prevent the rebound from responding naturally fast.

We would have to do a little survey here to see how many drummers 'bury their foot' into the bass drum head, it seems that's going to be the market for Catapult. (BTW Mark, being from OZ, did you think of naming it 'boomerang' )?

Kit drumming is all about balance. When your sitting on a stool it doesn't matter if your high, low, or at knee level, your going to balance your body with one of your feet.

People who pull the beater off the bass drum head are going will have to balance with their opposite foot and that's usually the hi hat.

I myself bury the beater in the bass head. This allows me to play my hi hat with my other foot, which is critical to my playing. If my hi hat isn't keeping time (1/4 or 1/2 notes, sometimes 8's), I feel like Im not playing the drums. Involving all my limbs creates a 'free'er' feeling, a sense of completeness, every appendage is contributing to the keeping process with a sound. In order for me to let the beater come off the bass head, I would need to balance with my HH foot killing the process. I play 90% heel up.

If you watch drummers play (check out You Tube as an example), the ones that don't bury their bass drum beaters do not keep time with their foot on the hi hat, this is exclusively true when the person is playing 'heel up'. Not many drummers play the HH constantly-in-time while doing fills.

What better source for manufacturers to find out what drummers want and what they think of their products. Television shows are made and broken by 1200 viewers Neilson raters, and here is an audience of 12000 or so users..Companies pay big money for information like this.

People would be surprised what and how many drum co's are reading this and other forums.

It's nice to see Gibby taking a chance on new stuff. With the market what it is, or better yet, 'what it's become' I still see Catapult's having a hard time finding home's and getting work. Better start pumping up the artist roster. A You Tube vid may convince some buyers along with a name pro using one on tour and getting it seen in their set up in the rags. As drummers we pretty much feel insulted when we read a drum rags review of stuff submitted by the same people who pay the wage, for the most part, these reviews are always biased.

You can unbury the beater and still keep time with the hi-hat. Many drummers do this, you just have to learn how. It's not impossible.

[Les Ismore]

You can unbury the beater and still keep time with the hi-hat. Many drummers do this, you just have to learn how. It's not impossible.

Quote us a pro example, we'll check it out on You Tube. Not impossible, though very uncomfortable, when you lift both feet off the pedals at the same time, you 'fall' either forward or backward depending how you sit on the stool.

[fijjibo]

You can unbury the beater and still keep time with the hi-hat. Many drummers do this, you just have to learn how. It's not impossible.

Quote us a pro example, we'll check it out on You Tube. Not impossible, though very uncomfortable, when you lift both feet off the pedals at the same time, you 'fall' either forward or backward depending how you sit on the stool.

Heres a few players who utilise the rocking hihat motion.

Steve Gadd
Dennis Chambers
Tommy Igoe
Dave weckl
Thomas Lang

In fact - most pro drummers, and even most drummers full stop use the technique.

It just involves rocking your foot slightly back on the foot board to open them, rather than picking your whole leg up to open them.

It gives you balance, and cuts out the need for additional motion that is unnecessary.

[drum.lad]

i use the rocking hi hat style i find it easier and allows me to focus more on what my other foot is doing

[harryconway]

Who knows where the Catapult will be in 15 years. Certainly, the Axis pedal did not take the world "by storm". The first time I saw an Axis pedal was probably 17 years ago at a NAMM show. To bury the beater or not. To me that's a style. Just like keeping time with the hi-hat. Both to be done, none, little, some, or all of the time. Seems if you bury the beater all of the time, then you certainly don't need a pedal as sophisticated as an Axis pedal. John Bonham kept pretty good time on the hi-hat, used a Speed King (patent 1914), could bury the beater or not, and was able to keep pretty good balance sitting on his drum throne. I imagine, if he was alive today, he could probably play the hell out of a Catapult as well. As much fun as being a gear-head is, I think sometimes we place way to much emphasis on the latest, fastest, most expensive, lightest, coolest looking "whatever".

[Legacyrik]

I can strike the drum so hard, I feel the head will break if I am not careful. Remember the force of your stike is directly proportional to the amount of load you can produce from your leg/ foot and that has nothing to do with spring tension , rebound or length of travel.
If you feel there would be an improvement to power by increasing the length of stroke - not really since the stroke length is determined by footboard height and placement. If the stroke was longer the footboard angle would increase and no one want a rediculous angled board.


1) Length of throw doesn't affect power... hmmm, I don't buy that.
2) My ICs enable me to adjust board angle and beater throw independantly also...
3) Some people prefer very steep footboard angles. Just check out our resident DB burner Tim... From his video he seems to have a very drastic incline, I don't prefer that but some people do....


I had it tested by pro players until I came up with the right angles and lengths to have a NATURAL RESPONSE - no added acceleration or power.
I thought it is best to improve my playability and not use any outside influences or componentry to complicate what should be natural. The same way we use a drum stick - with no outside influence just you and the instrument.WE ALL LEARN ABOUT THE REBOUND OF A DRUM STICK AND LIFTING YOUR YOUR HAND . NOW TRY IT WITH YOUR FOOT. i FOUND IT EASY TO BURY THE BEATER BUT THEN QUICKLY LEARNED TO PLAY OFF THE REBOUND . WHAT A DIFFERENCE !

Yes learning to operate a bass like your hands is beneficial.. One point I think you may have forgotten is how bass drums are tuned... Largely, very loosely and have very little rebound, comparitively to other drums. I feel like begin able to adjust tension probably helps counter the lack of bounce off the bass drum.

Finally, I really liked the idea, but in the end it's lack of adjustability was the deciding factor.

[Rockingfreakapotamus]

Hello chaps and chappette's

Drummer Magazine (UK) Done a review on the catapult in the newest issue and it got absolutely slayed.

I am therefore inclined to admit that this product is drastically lacking in favourable opinions, on the mostpart, from drummers.

I must have been one of the lucky ones who bough this pedal who can work with it and find it comfortable.

This just proves the tried and tested method of TRY BEFORE YOU BUY.

If i have time i will put up the review, copyright permitting (Any long-time members or Admin's - Will copyright of reviews be and issue?)

Thanks guys

X

[DogBreath]

I'm intrigued by the design and I will for sure give it a try the first chance I get. Too bad there wasn't one at winter NAMM this year (or if there was then it's too bad that I didn't see it!).

[fijjibo]

If i have time i will put up the review, copyright permitting (Any long-time members or Admin's - Will copyright of reviews be and issue?)



Go Ahead, just as long as it stays on the forum and you make it very clear where you got the review from, like in big bold letters.

[Spec]

For those interested here is a link to view the Catapult in action
http://www.youtube.com/xinovatorrx

Cheers!

[Les Ismore]

For those interested here is a link to view the Catapult in action
http://www.youtube.com/xinovatorrx

Cheers!

Not convincing enough. George is a 'lite' player, we want to see the bass drum move.

I liked 'Jaska from Children of Bodom' and his blue cam'd Elim's even though I couldn't understand what he was saying.

[Spec]

Actually George amongst other things plays Iron Maiden covers for a well known outfit here in Melbourne Aus.
He also holds a Guiness record for the single stroke roll here. I doubt whether you would be aware or interested but those are representative of George.

[Les Ismore]

Actually George amongst other things plays Iron Maiden covers for a well known outfit here in Melbourne Aus.
He also holds a Guiness record for the single stroke roll here. I doubt whether you would be aware or interested but those are representative of George.

George is a good player, no disrespect to George. Its not about George, its about Cartapult. Would like to see some heat on the Catapult.

I had trouble with the roller bearing on the foot board separating/loosing contact with the beater stalk when using heavy, short strokes, this caused a 'clack' when the two meet up together again. You mentioned 6 months to get used to Catapult. This is not reality, most pro drummers would need only 6 hrs to burn in a new pedal, along with 1 gig to call it done.

A bass pedal should offer enhancement to a players technique, not limit it, at least that's how it is here in america. Catapult needs to convince the market to insure its survival, not any one drummer. I like the attempt at something new, but will bite only if it can support and ultimately enhance an old dog's tricks.

[n2xlr8n]

For those interested here is a link to view the Catapult in action
http://www.youtube.com/xinovatorrx

Cheers!


Wow. He has fabulous technique.

I'd try the pedal, for sure....and I own DW 9000 series.

[Spec]

George is a good player, no disrespect to George. Its not about George, its about Cartapult. Would like to see some heat on the Catapult.

I had trouble with the roller bearing on the foot board separating/loosing contact with the beater stalk when using heavy, short strokes, this caused a 'clack' when the two meet up together again. You mentioned 6 months to get used to Catapult. This is not reality, most pro drummers would need only 6 hrs to burn in a new pedal, along with 1 gig to call it done.

A bass pedal should offer enhancement to a players technique, not limit it, at least that's how it is here in america. Catapult needs to convince the market to insure its survival, not any one drummer. I like the attempt at something new, but will bite only if it can support and ultimately enhance an old dog's tricks.

I hope this helps

Good ol George : this was the first time he actually sat down with the pedal and used it for a length of time.
The doubling up part was in the first half hour of using it.
So it was even a test play for him. Unfortunately I can only load bits and pieces up on youtube but we plan to put up some more this weekend.
Your points are valid. I understand your predicament with the seperating movement.
It would not take you 6 months to get that under control. Give it a chance and give your muscles a chance to adapt to moving with the footboard. The pedal can be sooo fast if your foot movement is with the footboard and not trying to catch the board making your clack sound. I too can make that sound if I think about it like a conventional pedal.
Consider it is not suppose to limit or work like a rotary shaft design. Its mechanical design has different physical and geometric comps.
MBS Fitness results show that conventional style pedals have actually caused fatigue in the flexor muscles. Over the years this has become the norm. The conventional pedal alters what you do and you have to fight against it(resistance).
With resistance comes fatigue.
The Catapult action doesnt alter the natural movement of your foot (less resistance)Less fatigue but at the beginning it may feel weak because you need to retrain.
Yes you need to retrain but its for a better overall performance.
Since when does a pedal offer the player improved performance without having to work on your own ability?
How many years does it take to learn to use your trusted rotary shaft style pedal properly? I am sure it was not over night.
When anything new comes along, expect a lot of resistance and to see a loyalty to the past products that have existed for so long. If it was not for the rotary shaft / bell cam and the complications that go with it, an alternative would not be now on offer.
Designers and inventors of 100 years past that give the players the opportunity to express their talent in different forms. www.youtube.com/xinovatorrx
I have all the respect in the world for engineers that give up all their time to invent. Play your bass drum how you want and enjoy it!

[Les Ismore]

The pedal can be sooo fast if your foot movement is with the footboard and not trying to catch the board making your clack sound. I too can make that sound if I think about it like a conventional pedal.

I would think a stronger spring might help the stalk stay in contact with the foot board, otherwise wasted long motions of the foot with a downward motion are necessary to keep contact. There's 'a lot more beater travel' with this design compared to cam on shaft, add in the fact the foot board height is not adjustable and long foot strokes, which could be seen as waste full are needed. With traditional, the short motion of beater travel allows one to make short concentrated strokes. Beater distance can be between 3" from bass head to 5" comfortably.

MBS Fitness results show that conventional style pedals have actually caused fatigue in the flexor muscles. Over the years this has become the norm. The conventional pedal alters what you do and you have to fight against it(resistance).
With resistance comes fatigue.

I know this to be true, but only in the traditional 'heel down' position of playing. Most drummers adapt a 'heel up' style, also a resurgence of 'heel toe' where the heel strikes first, then the ball of the foot like a natural walking motion which is virtually free of fatigue whilst employing double strokes. A lot of drummers 'run' on their pedals, this means loosing contact w/foot board for a split second in 'heel up' position.

The Catapult action doesnt alter the natural movement of your foot (less resistance)Less fatigue but at the beginning it may feel weak because you need to retrain.
Yes you need to retrain but its for a better overall performance.

I may argue when a conventional cam on shaft pedal is set to the same light load as Catapult, resistance is at the same minimum. Granted this may not be the case for one who is just 'starting out' on a bass drum pedal, they may find Catapult less resistant, or at least that's what you hope. Catapult needs to offer 'more' than what's currently happening.

Since when does a pedal offer the player improved performance without having to work on your own ability?

If it be the same design, your looking at 'slight' adjustments to an 'already learned' technique. Catapult is asking a whole new approach be learned, to which the end results have yet to be scene. Unless you yourself post a vid, since it seems you have the most time in on Catapult its full potential is nothing but speculative theory. No ones going to bow down to MBS fitness results.

When anything new comes along, expect a lot of resistance and to see a loyalty to the past products that have existed for so long. If it was not for the rotary shaft / bell cam and the complications that go with it, an alternative would not be now on offer.

True and this is your biggest hurdle. I would think you would want beginners, promising younger types who have a chance at making the scene to be given the Catapult in hopes they make it their own, reach a level of acceptable performance, then have a shot at convincing the younger market Catapult is better. Until someone reaches an acceptably consistent 'Bonham-like' performance level (or beyond) with Catapult, its going to be a hard sell.

Its almost like trying to reinvent the drum stick. Everyone is conditioned and 100 years is a long time. We also have the "Smart Pedal' design to consider, a natural walking motion where the heel makes first contact.

[Spec]

.

I may argue when a conventional cam on shaft pedal is set to the same light load as Catapult, resistance is at the same minimum. Granted this may not be the case for one who is just 'starting out' on a bass drum pedal, they may find Catapult less resistant, or at least that's what you hope. Catapult needs to offer 'more' than what's currently happening.

I have just completed a modification which should help the masses take another look.
I have designed an adjustable head for the beater angle. It offers more power and a feeling of more weight behind the movement. Its all to do with weight position and balance at the opposite end of the fulcrum. A variation of beater distance from the head can now be chosen as well as full height adjustment up to 13.5" from the base. Remember you only have to adjust height and angle without having to adjust a cam or spring.
I understand speculation will continue but I am listening to what people want to see and feel. I also modified a beater to improve the note produced. I have achieved great results so stay tuned after testing we may see some integration.

[Les Ismore]

Catapult needs to offer 'more' than what's currently happening.

Actually what I meant here was...'Catapult needs to offer more than the competition.'
Improvements are good, we're proud of you Mark. Its not like I don't want Catapult to succeed. A devil's advocate, a fire under your ass so to speak I hope is one of the things you came looking here for.

If you can make Catapult convincing enough, I will buy it. It needs to be able to do what I want it to do though, not what it wants me to do. I am willing to make allowences 'within reason' so to speak.

Another thing I question is the rubber strip connected to the stalk the bearing rides on, Will this come apart after ozone, sweat and wear challenge its existence awhile? Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Steel threads (or change to a solid piece of steel) in the spring retainer on the foot plate so I wouldn't be afraid to use a stronger spring would be nice too. Ever tested that little black piece of plastic for load strength? Nice with the beater adjustments, this also 'fakes' foot board angle adjustment, can't wait to see it. What is the minimum beater height?

Also tell us what's the deal with different beater head types for UK and America?

[Spec]

Thanks for your enthusiasm.
Yes I am inspired by all that are looking for new ways and alternatives.
Dont worry about the rubber strip. I havent worn out a strip yet. Actually they dont even wear..... so far thats over 18 months ago.
The black spring retainer block is actually aluminiun. So it wont give out.
About 10.5" min height.
Dont know anything about beater types being different. I will ask Gibraltar.
I will have more info for you in about a month so i will be in touch.
Regards.

[Les Ismore]

This from a UK buyer: Rockingfreakapotamus


Member Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 45


Re: Gibraltar Catapult

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are thinking of the beater that appears in most of the promotional pictures i am sure, the disk like beater?

The beater on the ACTUAL pedal is infact, the same beater that appears on the Intruder Series pedal, just a normal dual faced beater.

The promotional pictures are quite misleading in that respect.

Gibby might be changing parts on you Mark. I swear the spring retainer (USA version) is made of plastic, I gave it a good look. I will verify tomorrow and get back to you.

Beater USA is the flat disk type. Rockingfreakapotamus claims above UK issue is a 2 way design. Which beater was your choice for Catapult?

Dont worry about the rubber strip. I havent worn out a strip yet. Actually they dont even wear..... so far thats over 18 months ago.

Not so much worried about wearing out as it becomming detached from stalk. Rubber has a way of shrinking as it dries out, or/and gets wet from being exposed to everything in the atmosphere after awhile. Add to it the fact that its getting 'worked' constantly by the bearing and gravity is working against it, I question if it will have issues with becoming 'detached' and/or 'deformed'... we're talking years here, not months.

[mddrummer]

it looks cool but i would'nt get one.

[Les Ismore]

Gibby might be changing parts on you Mark. I swear the spring retainer (USA version) is made of plastic, I gave it a good look. I will verify tomorrow and get back to you.

So the spring holder is aluminum and not plastic as it looks. I literally had to take the bolt out and scrape the threads on the inside of the hole to verify that it was anodized aluminum. It looks so much like a hard plastic you can't tell by looking at it or touching it, or a least I couldn't, had me fooled. Its the same material that anchors the beater stalk and pin assembly to the foot plate.

The beater on the USA model I see is the single pancake design.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

it looks cool but i would'nt get one

If Catapult doesn't get launched, you'll still be picking up a nice piece of drumming history. Its already made history by being the first bass drum pedal released by a major modern drum co that follows a different mechanical principle than the norm (foot board rotating on an axle between two posts). This un-adjustable first run model is an instant collectors item. For $110 its a bargain investment.

http://home.hetnet.nl/~winnie-/gallery/pedals/speedmaster.html

http://home.hetnet.nl/~winnie-/gallery/pedals/frisco.html

[Jeff Almeyda]

I hereby vote for Les as the unofficial drum gear historian/consultant.

You must have devoted some time to this. To not only know about current equipment but also the relevant history is no small feat. Do those old pedals in the photos belong to you? If so, you are one serious collector as well.

BTW, if that spring holder looked like plastic then it was an excellent anodizing job. I actually own an anodizing shop and I know what it takes to get that look.

[Les Ismore]

No, not my pedals. Here's the link to 'Crazy Pedals'

http://home.hetnet.nl/~winnie-/gallery/pedals/pedals1.html

Like it or not, we are witnessing drum hardware history unfold here with Catapult. Any tweeks Mark makes to the design (assuming they make it to production) will create a collectable In the years to come. Hold on to your first run piece, in years to come it will be worth more than $110.

[Les Ismore]

Anyone 'burn'n with a Catapult yet?

I sent Mark (the designer) a PM asking for an update, we'll see what he has to say.

[motojt]

Well, I'm gonna raise the dead here. I originally saw this thread back in October of '09 when I was looking for info on the Catapult. I ended up getting it as a Christmas gift and have been using it ever since. I gotta say, I love the thing. I'd been shopping around for a few months back then, and it seemed like all these other new pedals were coming out. That sexy dark grey and orange Pearl, a slick looking Taye, they were all over the place. I tried out tons of double and single pedals at all price ranges at Guitar Center. Of course they never had a Catapult for me to try out, so I was pretty skeptical. If I hadn't gotten it as a gift I'd probably still be using my old pedal.

Anyway, I'm glad I got it. To me, it's every bit as smooth as the high end Pearl and DW's I tried out, and has a slightly different feel. The conventional pedals seem to have a whippy kind of feel on the upstroke. Especially the chain drives (I'd always used a direct drive). The Cat' just feels more solid to me. I use heel up and heel down depending on what I'm playing and it feels very "natural" with both. I don't know how else to explain it except to say that it doesn't really feel like a pedal to me anymore. With my old pedal, I was always fully conscious of the fact that I was stomping a metal object. With the Cat', I'm just tapping my foot to the beat.

Believe it or not, I'm also noticeably faster with it than my old direct drive. I could never do a fast, Bonham-esque one-footed bass triplet before. Not on my old pedal, and not on any of the ones I tried out. Right after I set this one up I just started goofing around to see if the hype about it being faster was true. Five to ten minutes later my wife heard, "Holy shit! C'mere, check this out!" I learned two lessons that day. 1) Don't interrupt my wife to show her a "stupid bass triplet or whatever." 2) I'm faster on a Cat'.

I don't really fiddle around with settings on anything so I honestly haven't noticed any of the aforementioned limitations. It didn't take any getting used to either. I just set it up and started playing. I did have to adjust my ride since the bass drum has to be a little further away due to the extra length of the pedal.

All in all, I think it's a great little pedal. I'd say it's easily worth the $132 they charge for it at MF, and would definitely recommend anyone on the market to give it a fair try.

[pbassdrums]

I [also] realize this thread is older than dirt, but just wanted to share.

I love this pedal. Completely agree with everything motojt said especially..

With my old pedal, I was always fully conscious of the fact that I was stomping a metal object. With the Cat', I'm just tapping my foot to the beat.

What really works for me is that it basically merges a solid footboard (with it's forward pivot point rather than a hinge) with a longboard with a direct drive pedal that has none of the rebound lag.

Awesome pedal!

Beater sucks. Replaced it with a Tama felt something or other.