DOUBLE BASS TECHNIQUE

[RudimentalDrummer]

Oh crumb. The accent marks are not centered right. Let me just quickly summarize.

For single stroke triplets. Have the accents on 2. Also try it with accent on 1, and the ever harder 1, and 3. One should be able to extrapolate from here.

Good luck!!!

Dea

When you mentioned Accent...The way to execute it means what?...(I'm new into this). Does Accenting the Bass Drum means you stamp it harder (that's all) or there is a Techniques to do it like hand techniques. for Accenting & Ghosting?...

Thks

[morphina]

NEVER get burned; I play in a progressive metal band; the other members of the band don't seem to get that drummers need special care :D . Try to play as relaxed as possible; sometimes practicing too much (double bass) will lead to burning your muscles and then you lose that "feel" and grip on the pedals.

[papabear]

keep your heels up that will help your speed and alls you can really do is practice

[snowdog2112]

Does anyone else have the problem of being able to reach one speed one day and not being able to reach it again the next day? I've been practicing a lot with a metronome and on average I can only do sixteenth notes at 138 bpm, but one day I got to 160. Now I can't get back to even 152. Does anyone else have this problem?

[Ian Ballard]

Does anyone else have the problem of being able to reach one speed one day and not being able to reach it again the next day? I've been practicing a lot with a metronome and on average I can only do sixteenth notes at 138 bpm, but one day I got to 160. Now I can't get back to even 152. Does anyone else have this problem?

I think to avoid a million threads about "double-bass issues", there is an official thread about it "stickied" to the top of the forum. Feel free to post there.

Thanks!

[Cephalic]

It might just be an issue of you being more warmed up some days than on others.

[DrumProgressive]

It might just be an issue of you being more warmed up some days than on others.

It's also a matter of being relaxed. My max is at 165bpm now playing 16ths but i don't reach this every time i want to. it mostly comes to me after warming up for about 15 minutes like cephalic said. And also, i prepare my feet seperatly, i play plain 8ths on the left foor first at 165bpm, than the left foot. After that i merge the 2 motions and get the speed.

[daddyyabjee]

well im strange i lean to one side when doing a blast beat i find i get more speed that way, well when i do i can do blasts of up to 280 bpm well.... according to my reader thats the speed

280bpm? I don't think so!

Unless you mean 280bpm quarter-notes. Blast beats are usually considered as 8th-notes. So if you're playing eighth-notes, that means you can do up to 140bpm, rather than 280bpm.

I don't think that even most death-metal drummers can go up to or past 280BPM in 8th-note blast beats!

[morbius25]

Hey MFB isnt that something danny carey does to?

Yeah Carey does that and so does Thomas Lang. I went to a Gregg Bissonette clinic and he was talking about Lang cause he lives like next door to him, but said that the guy practices his rudiments with his feet for like 8 hours (joking of course) but wouldn't doubt it.

[daddyyabjee]

To everyone: I am playing 16th notes with both feet. So, I am playing 260 16th notes per minute. I play 8th notes with each individual foot (which does go fast anyway). I'm so sorry! I didn't even realize until you guys posted giving me these crazy numbers like 1100 bpm and stuff. I can go 260, but I mixed up 16th notes and 8th notes. I timed it yesterday and it is 260 bpm, 8th notes with each foot. I got the aid of the music teacher at my school to have me go with the metronome and only one foot ( the drum set is single bass and no double pedal) and I was keeping time perfectly, but in 8th notes! I was kinda eager to just get the exercise up and didn't really read over this first part.
Sorry!
- Marc

8th-notes at 260BPM? So that would be 130BPM 16th-notes, right?

[D A D O]

Hello everybody!
I have a problem sometimes with my double bass playing. I play every day couple of times. Now, what I experienced was that sometimes I really can't play some slow tempo. It's like I lose my balance. I get frustrated because of my neighbours. I'd surely play the whole day and practice but neighbours...
And the next day I wake up, go to play drums and I play better, next day better and next day I play like it never happened to me.
I don't really know why sometimes I really suck at playing double bass. Usually I can play Scott Travis', Bobby Jarzombek's, Dave Lombardo's and many others' parts. I hate the days when I can't play like I use to.

Help please!!!

[B.G.]

Ive had double bass pedals for a month now and I can play a few songs but I want to get faster. I play heel down because I always tend to lean really far back if I play heel up. What should I do to play faster?

[jazzsnob]

Ive had double bass pedals for a month now and I can play a few songs but I want to get faster. I play heel down because I always tend to lean really far back if I play heel up. What should I do to play faster?


Practice? A lot? It's not that hard. Practice singles and doubles.

[Skitch]

Warning; long post. It's either just me rambling, or finn's long-postedness has rubbed off on me.

Yes, practicing this stuff slow really helps. Try and get it as slow as you can without losing most of the momentum. Start at level one, and just work on it. Don't rush it, this is a key point. Learn good technique, don't learn a bad one and only practice it at high speeds.

I realised last night that my foot does not accept the rebound at all (barely). Luckily, I've only been playing for about 3 years, and haven't focused too drastically on my feet, so it shan't be too hard to correct it. A huge key to success: [B]do not rush speed. Speed comes through relaxation, the notes will sound faster if they are clean, too. Just send a lot of time getting even (haha, "don't get fast, get even" - the speed demon's motto) strokes, clean strokes. Once you get this down well enough, start practicing accents for control etc. Then knock the BPM up a bit.

Don't rush it- your muscles and drumming will thank you for it. I think you will find you will have a lot more fun and find drumming a lot more fun if you are relaxed. Imagine rolling down the kit (or on the bass drum), spreading notes evenly like butter, beautiful even sounding notes, almost effortlessly. Then imagine struggling to belt out uneven, sloppy notes, all tense, at the same speed. Picture this, and then choose which method you would prefer; Rushing and tense, or taking it slowly and relaxed and even.

The reason I'm trying to emphasize this is because I know how hard it can be to resist the temptation of rushing. Just realise that going slow, means you will be cleaner and faster.

I hope that helps.

Excellent post, Chip

Yea man, have you seen his dvd's? He talks about drums while walking through forests. Some of his lyrics though make no sense at all. For example, in "Spirit of the Radio", when the song is near the end, Geddy Lee sings "Echos of the sound of salesmen, of salesmen, OHHHHHHHH SALESMEN!". Hilarious part but odd. Great lyricist none the less.
I don't mean to speak down to you here but you do realize that the preceding part of this "The words of the prophets were written on the studio walls" was a spin off of Simon and Garfunkel's Sound of Silence Lyric, "The words of the prophets were written on the subway walls".
Some of his lyrics though make no sense at all. For example, in "Spirit of the Radio", when the song is near the end, Geddy Lee sings "Echos of the sound of salesmen, of salesmen, OHHHHHHHH SALESMEN!". Hilarious part but odd.
And, I believe, this line refers to the growing commercialism of music (which would explode in the 1980s) at the time in which Rush wasn't cranking out hit song after hit song. As Frank Zappa put it in his book, "and turn up the handclaps....."

Rush and other bands like Genesis were really having to start to reidentify and reinvent themselves. "The Spirit of Radio" is basically a reminder of where radio came from and what made it great. There was a time when the record companies didn't control everything (like the playlists and radio station conglomerates) for the sake of selling commercial slots for advertising (back to Frank here, ..."to buy all the worthless crap people want to sell us")

This song was a real social commentary on where free radio was headed, for better for worse, in the not too distant future..

"One likes to believe in the freedom of music but glitter prizes and endless compromises....."

Do you see the relevance in these words?

I don't know that I even really listen to Rush much anymore, but they did contribute alot and many bands from the 1990s list them as a major influence. And at least Neil, as a lyricist, made people rethink the whole "dumb drummer" attitude. I don't know that Neil would make my top ten list, but he still has contributed quite a bit. And you have to respect a band who didn't sell out for bigger profits in the growing face of top 40 radio. I can think of one band that did and doesn't even tour anymore. Rush is probably still as popular as ever with music fans and they did this doing it their way.


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXMxJw0VnqE (”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXMxJw0VnqE”)

[rendezvous_drummer]

I did not know that Skitch, thanks for the information, I was very puzzled with that song haha. BTW, how did this come into the double bass technique thread.

[Jeremy Perfection]

Yea i just got an iron cobra double bass pedal not to long ago myself. And well its been a challenge to say the least. My problem is that my set stays at my friends house so i only can practice with it once a week so, here is my question. What is the best way to train myself to have monster bass rolls without actually having the pedals to practice with. Any help would be much appreciated.

[rendezvous_drummer]

I have finally learned the heel toe method and can perform it fairly well on the double bass!!! After watching derricks video, thought i'd try it, and it came so natural and easy! Thanks Derrick!

[jonnodrummer]

Right i can play some double bass stuff okish if i play heel down, but apparantly to get faster you are meant to play heel up, but when i play heel up i cant play anything ata all its weird any suggestions?

[(sic)]

i find it impossible to play anything heels down, but i can get about 185-190bpm heels up. i've only been playing double-bass a year now but i would definatly recommend learning heels up for speedy stuff

[mikei]

I have changed the way I practice DB for speed and endurance.

I play toe-heel, and used to get tired pretty quickly. That is changing now.

I purchased a second double bass pedal (pdp402 for $90) and set the pedal really tight. I then attached it to a gibraltar practice pad in the garage. I purchased 5 lbs ankle weights for each leg. I then set my metronome to 110 and play 16th notes for as long as I can.

The first couple of minutes are tough and the last couple of minutes are hell. Lots of burning! But, I push myself to near failure. I am at 4 minutes now with the weights on. When I am done, I have some minor trouble even walking.

I do this each day for 4 minutes. I started at 16th at 100 but slowly increase the speed each week by 2.

The difference when I get to the kit is amazing. I can play so much longer now and my left leg is much, much stronger. I am faster and more accurate now.

I am very busy, and do not get as much time on the kit as I would like. Now before bed, I practice stick control for 30 to 60 minutes on a practice pad and end with a 5 minutes db session in the garage on the practice pad.

It has paid off!

[Beat Spector]

this is for all you willing to learn the heel/toe:


A while ago i put some cry for help here on practicing my heel/toe method.
I watched Derricks video over and over, i tried and tried seemingly endlessly but didn't seem to work out, and moments when I kinda felt "oh it's comming, i'm mastering it".
I tried to speeding up or playing beats with the technique I inconciensly felt into "heel up" again...
but then...

I was soooo eager to learn in I tried practically everything. And, by trying and trying everything, i finally masterd it. OK my speed is not yet very fast, but i feel the control becomming more, and more accurate, precizer if you will (sorry for my spelling).
But I wanna share those things that worked for me...cuz I feel it mayorly important to know.

1st of all: after weeks of watching the video's over and over and trying and trying and getting frustrated i decided to place a mirror next to right feet. So I could see my feetmotion (the wave like motion they should make) FROM THE SIDE.
So you can see your own feet from the same angle as in derrick's video.
This is mayorly important. Anyone who has problems: buy a mirror. Really.With less then half the effort you get more than twice the result. Don't watch your feet directly, watch them in the mirror. Play with short pants on socks. Get your beats even. Keep looking in the mirror. Do easy patterns, include your hands, but keep watching in the mirror. Watch the wave-like motion. Get the beats nice and even.

2)Don't underestimate the importance of the (donno what's the correct english word) settings from your pedal. I got an Iron Cobra and i didn't adjust the tension of the springs and the angle of the beaters until a few weeks ago. Make the springs a bit looser. Not to much tension. Angle of the beaters to: make sure that with the bounce-back they don't hit your feet.
I know you should be able to play heel/toe with all pedals, BUT TO LEARN IT, adjust your pedals. It really, really really helps a whole freakin' lot.

If i had done those 2 things from the beginning....

So for all you willing to begin learning the heel/toe method: try this, donno if it will work out for you but I did practically a miracle for my.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Regarding heel-toe: I'm going out on a limb here but I HATE IT!!!

It usually sounds terrible on an acoustic kit. The two hits are very different and the continuous tap-dance motion is awkward while playing a song. Most of the guys using it employ triggers to smooth out the sound. Tim Waterson doesn't but he's a special case, he is the best in the world at it. (Much respect, Tim)

I have been working on legit doubles ala Lang et al. It has really helped me alot. I can only do 16ths at 160 BPM so far but that translates into 210 BPM plus for heel-up singles and 195 plus for heel down singles. (Yes heel down). I can hold these for at least 30 seconds. Not WFD champ material yet but nothing to sneeze at.

The ankle development you get from "old fashioned" doubles is second to none. Plus the sound is much more musical. Start out with 16ths at 80 BPM and go from there. Don't increase the speed until you're sounding smooth.

Yes, after a few hours you will be able to go faster with heel-toe but maybe the reward isn't as great in the long run. After all, we want to play music, not just fast notes right?

Just my opinion.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Dea

When you mentioned Accent...The way to execute it means what?...(I'm new into this). Does Accenting the Bass Drum means you stamp it harder (that's all) or there is a Techniques to do it like hand techniques. for Accenting & Ghosting?...

Thks

Lang has the best technique for accents with the feet. He plays heel-down for the regular notes and heel-up for the accents. The motion employs constant release technique as described by Steve Smith in his DVD

[drummer_dudley]

look on the dave lombardo homepage, there are some exercises which helped me build my speed...first you have to set up your two basses in a way that feels comfortable to you(as close together as possible usually), for practicing just look on the lombardo page, it`s really got me started as well. now after two years i am able to play most slayer and slipknot stuff for example with double bass, but there is also faster stuff in the extreme metal genre
i looked for that website but it doesn't work. any ideas? does it still work for u

[sloppyn9ne]

Regarding heel-toe: I'm going out on a limb here but I HATE IT!!!

It usually sounds terrible on an acoustic kit. The two hits are very different and the continuous tap-dance motion is awkward while playing a song. Most of the guys using it employ triggers to smooth out the sound. Tim Waterson doesn't but he's a special case, he is the best in the world at it. (Much respect, Tim)

I have been working on legit doubles ala Lang et al. It has really helped me alot. I can only do 16ths at 160 BPM so far but that translates into 210 BPM plus for heel-up singles and 195 plus for heel down singles. (Yes heel down). I can hold these for at least 30 seconds. Not WFD champ material yet but nothing to sneeze at.

The ankle development you get from "old fashioned" doubles is second to none. Plus the sound is much more musical. Start out with 16ths at 80 BPM and go from there. Don't increase the speed until you're sounding smooth.

Yes, after a few hours you will be able to go faster with heel-toe but maybe the reward isn't as great in the long run. After all, we want to play music, not just fast notes right?

Just my opinion.
ive been doing the heel toe thing for as long as ive been drumming. which is two years and my doubles are pretty consistant. but i only do it in my right foot. if your talking about consistency in both foot then my bad. but i use the heel toe all the time when i need fast doubles and im using my left foot on the high hat. but its really not hard to master. no offense to tim cause hes still a butt load better than me but it isnt hard to get the clean.i can almost the the "world famous tom-tom-bass-bass-tom-tom-bass-bass" fill thing with one foot. but ive have been working on the "traditional" doubles too.

i dont know what im ranting and raving about just learn both.

[Synthetik]

I am not sure what is meant by "heel toe doubles sound crappy" because when any technique is done properly, the final sound works just fine.

I'd think that the pros use a combination of techniques, and the only right way, is whatever works.

It's either sloppy technique, or cleanly done, no matter which way it's done.

[anson89]

A few questions.

1. I can do RRRR LLLL RLRLRLRLRLRL etc etc .. at 120bpm. But when I try playing a normal 16th note double bass beat at 120bpm, my feet starts to get tired and I get really unstable. I've checked it with my teacher and he says my technique is correct. Anyway to fix this?

2. What do you guys this of the Encyclopedia Of Double Bass Drumming book?

[reddrummer90]

back in august I could do pretty decent double bass, no fancy rudiments or anything like that but I could keep a steady roll going, then I joined football and by the end of two-a-days I was so tired I never touched my drums except for shows, eventually It's addes up to a few months with out double bass practice, and I can't keep a steady double bass for more than 4 beats
The way I got my dble bass started was I just went for as long as I could (or until I hit half an hour) practicing keeping my right foot beat with my left hand nonstop
so It went like this
R R R R<-on high hat
RLRLRLRL<-bass
I'm also starting lessons this saturday so I'll get some help from my teacher
but do you guys have any tips as to how I should get my double bass back, or should I start like I did before.

thanks for your time

[reddrummer90]

I'll also be spending time in the double bass thread

[jazzsnob]

Practice double bass.

[Synthetik]

...and find the chunk of kryptonite that is sapping your power and encase it in a lead box.

[Phil Maturano]

...and find the chunk of kryptonite that is sapping your power and encase it in a lead box.

Hahahaaaaaa that cracked me up. I go through the same thing w/ DB bass bro...ups and downs. Like anything...just keep doing it in a methodical disciplined way. I find it most helpful to think about life time goals and spreading the work over long periods. Not getting to caught up in the daily ups and downs ...hope that helps somehow.
peace
pm

[finnhiggins]

One think I'd like to raise is that maybe you didn't have the double bass thing as down as you thought. Generally, if I learn something properly I don't forget it fast. When I say "properly" I mean to the degree that I can play it without a trace of having to "muscle through" technique and force things to happen, and without co-ordination problems that throw me off.

For example, I learned one particular latin groove maybe six or so years ago. I haven't really played it much if at all since about 2001/2002. I had a go at it again the other day. Now, back when I learned it there were two bass drum strokes I could never quite place right without a bit of tension, I didn't quite have the co-ordination and technique down. When I came back to it this year I discovered that excluding those two strokes I could still play the part perfectly, but those two strokes were now impossible to play - I couldn't muscle them in if my life depended on it.

I think it comes down to mastery. If you actually master the ability to do something then it goes into that nice "like riding a bike" category where you just don't seem to forget it, you just get a little bit rusty and need a week or two so you can clean the dust off. But if you're tense, unsure or whatever then you tend to lose ability at a much faster rate.

If your double bass stuff is tailing off that much in that short a space then maybe you're trying to force it? I can't say that with any kind of certainty, but maybe some lessons and a bit of practice of proper bass drum technique will help you both sort yourself out in the long run and also retain form a bit better if any other distractions come along in the short to medium term.

[Boadrummer]

I know that there's an entire thread devoted to this, but I'm really having trouble with my double pedal. It's extremely hard to do. I've had my double pedal since Christmas 2004, and according to a lot of people, I've really improved, but I don't hear it. I always used to play heel down, although It gradually got to heel up, but I can't get any speed or coordination. I'm OK at playing slower beats, but as you gradually get up tempo, I start losing it. I play in a hardcore/metalcore style band, and this is really hampering our musical development. Does anyone have any tips on what I can do to get over this problem I have?

[Jeff Almeyda]

I am not sure what is meant by "heel toe doubles sound crappy" because when any technique is done properly, the final sound works just fine.

I'd think that the pros use a combination of techniques, and the only right way, is whatever works.

It's either sloppy technique, or cleanly done, no matter which way it's done.

Due to the fact that the heel has the entire weight of the leg behind it and the toe doesn't, the first hit is always louder than the second. Also the beater rebounds freely off of the heel stroke and not off of the toe stroke.

Tim Waterson himself admits that the first note sounds different. That's why he sometimes uses a Vruk attachment. The Vruk puls the beater away from the head and makes the second stroke sound fuller.

That's why I say "It sounds like crap". Imagine a double stroke roll with the hands in which the first note of each double was heavier than the second. You would say it sounded terrible.

[drummingrobot]

The very same thing happened to me a couple of weeks ago. What I did was practice at a tempo that I could control and play straight sixteenth notes on perfectly (for me that was 120 bpm). I just practiced that for about a half an hour straight, then slowly increased the tempo. Soon, my double bass chops returned to me, and i have been burning since.

[MaranaTha]

I just got my iron cobra double-bass pedal today!
I am in need of some SERIOUS practice!
I'm 15, and my brother is 16. My brother bought me the double-bass, because he has a job. (nice brother) I really do not have the greatest drum set in the world. It's an piece of crap TAMA that a friend gave me for free, because he had gotten a new drumset. I have 1 ride, a hihat, 2 toms, bassdrum, and iron cobra. I read some of the replies to this thread, and I DID get some tips I am going to try.
I hope I can get good at this!
Please, if you are going to reply to me...Remember, I am a COMPLETE beginner. I'm not even good with notes!

[kucing_maram]

if you wanna be speedy on the right job, he he he. just kidding. i have one suggest for this all. no matter how beginner are you. just rilex and keep imagine that you having a bicycle in childhood. i mean on the road at yet. imagine you have roll on by your bicycle. just doing and do not thing about job or other. just pleasure. remember, drumming is a pleasure not a job. ok? get a smile an life is roll on. peace!

[Class A Drummer]

Same happened to me too. I was never that great at double bass, but i could go crazy physco metal for a good 5-10 seconds and keep it pretty even. I kinda lost that over the summer when i went to slp. away camp for a month. I have more control now after practicing more, but i havent gotten back up to speed yet. Maybe if i got a better double pedal it would help (usin a powershifter).

[JWM]

Do as Tim Waterson does--

Practice each foot separately for long periods of time (as in months) before putting them together. Use a metronome and start at a slow tempo.

He and many other great drummers also use a practice tool called the Hansenfutz practice pedal--

www.hansenfutz.com

The pedal allows you to work the muscles in a direct way instead of expending more energy balancing the body and controlling beater rebound (which I feel is the main culprit for leg fatigue). And don't freak out when your first buy it ... it comes set at the highest tension and feels very different from a real pedal. Just find a comfortable tension and angle for the pedal and be consistent.

[finnhiggins]

Since I wrote my last post in this thread I've had reason to start practicing double pedal again. I haven't played it seriously (i.e: in front of people) in three years. Over that time I've lost about 5bpm off my comfortable speed. I'm going to stand with what I said below - if you actually learn to do something right (= with control and relaxation) you don't lose it that quickly. If you learn it wrong (with uncertainty and tension in your movements) then you lose your chops a lot faster.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Since I wrote my last post in this thread I've had reason to start practicing double pedal again. I haven't played it seriously (i.e: in front of people) in three years. Over that time I've lost about 5bpm off my comfortable speed. I'm going to stand with what I said below - if you actually learn to do something right (= with control and relaxation) you don't lose it that quickly. If you learn it wrong (with uncertainty and tension in your movements) then you lose your chops a lot faster.


I agree 100%

This concept is fundamental to achieving mastery at anything. The more accurately you program a movement into your nervous system, the longer it remains imprinted upon your mental circuitry. (aka muscle memory).

[SEVNT7]

This is a long term exercise that was givin' to me in college, that I then modified to make it harder and more effective. The original exercise was. Using pg. 5 in Stick Control, play each ex. for 1 minute with your feet. It takes 24 minutes.Start at 60 bpm and increase tempo 1 beat per minute each time you do the exercise. Play with heal down to isolate calf muscle. My version is this- HANDS & FEET together. Day-1. part 1. Pg 5, (ex. 1-24 ) 60 bpm (24 min). Part-2.-pg's 5-7. (ex.1-72) straight through no repeats.( @ 60 bpm it takes 9 min.). Part-3- Ex. #1 pg.5, double time (or 16th notes).1 min. heal-down. 1 min. heal-up. 2 min. heal-down. 2 min. heal-up. 3min. heal-down. 3 up. 4 down. 4 up. 5 down. 5 up.(part 3 takes 30 min.) Day-2 Part-1 pg.6 Parts 2&3 same as day-1 ( 61-bpm). Day-3 part-1 pg 7. Parts 2&3 same as day-1 (62 bpm). Each day you do ths exercise keep rotating pg's 5,6 & 7. Intire 3 part ex. should be played nonstop. @ 60 bpm it takes over an hour. (63 Min.) If you can't make it through the intire exercise don't increase tempo. ( note's on technique. All ex. should be played w/the B.D. beater coming fully back to the resting position. Off the drum head. Just like the free stroke w/ the hands. As an added hands technique, Part-3 only, when playing heal-down, hands play w/ fingers only. Heal-up play hands w/ wrists only. I also like my pedal tension to be as loose as possible, so I'm depending on bounce to return the beater to resting position. I also set my pedal up so the resting position of the beater is 90 degrees away from the drum head, like a full stroke position for the hands. Not like most factory pedal settings at around 45 degrees.) Good luck .....T

[tama drummer 1474]

hey ive been playing drums practicly all my life(im 15).im self taught. lateley ive been trying to figure out how to use the double bass pedal. i can use it but i cant keep a continuios beat. could someone please give me some tips on how to inprove my double bass playing?

[jiltednut]

Have a look here:
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2885

Remember the search button is a useful research tool!!

[wishihadapearl]

i tried this a few times:
sit down and get comfortable behind your kit. start playin double bass at a easy tempo for you. not real easy but not hard either. have a watch and time yourself. try to keep it going at the initial tempo for say 5 minutes. if that is to easy go to 10 and so on. once you get comfortable incorporate your hands at the same time doing different things. i've done this exercise maybe 3 or 4 times and i noticed a consederable jump in indurance and speed.

[tama drummer 1474]

i tried this a few times:
sit down and get comfortable behind your kit. start playin double bass at a easy tempo for you. not real easy but not hard either. have a watch and time yourself. try to keep it going at the initial tempo for say 5 minutes. if that is to easy go to 10 and so on. once you get comfortable incorporate your hands at the same time doing different things. i've done this exercise maybe 3 or 4 times and i noticed a consederable jump in indurance and speed.

lol. if i can get any beat at all going it gets all screwed up once i try to incorperate my hands into it. im trying to play songs like live wire and red hot by motley crue.

[ajgdrums722]

lol. if i can get any beat at all going it gets all screwed up once i try to incorperate my hands into it. im trying to play songs like live wire and red hot by motley crue.

You're playing too fast. Play slow. Ridiculously slow if need be. You're not going to be able to get yourself up to 150bpm if you can't play 90bpm yet. Start very slow and gradually work your way up.

[rlestage]

Don't try to walk before you can crawl so to speak.

Work on control and technique. Watch some of the tutorials. Go really slow.

RLRLRL at say 90bpm. try that excersize for 10 minutes to see if you can gain control. As days go by and you feel you can increase speed, up the tempo a bit. ( if you have a metranome that would benefit ).

If you find yourself being able to do this easy after say a week or two of practice. Maybe try something like this:

RLRR LRLL

[tama drummer 1474]

thanks ill have to try that later and see if it helps

[DrumProgressive]

Don't rush things, i did it an regret it now. I practiced 2-4 backbeat with 16'th on bass under it from 80 to about 140. When i got to 140 it sounded liek rubbish.

I started all over again and trained each foot speratly aswell.
The result: More endurance and power.

[JWM]

Regarding heel-toe: I'm going out on a limb here but I HATE IT!!!

It usually sounds terrible on an acoustic kit.
Not really. They just take work to smooth out, and sound great in groove playing (especially for "1e").

The two hits are very different and the continuous tap-dance motion is awkward while playing a song.
But having that difference in the notes (it's not as stark if you smooth them out) gives you a dynamic feel with your feet that is similar to Moeller for the hands.

I have been working on legit doubles ala Lang et al.
"Legit" doubles? I think both ways are legit, I guess maybe it's just preference. I work on both, because I find just one way to be limiting.

Yes, after a few hours you will be able to go faster with heel-toe but maybe the reward isn't as great in the long run. After all, we want to play music, not just fast notes right?
Again, heel/toe doesn't just have to be used for trying to break records. If you really smooth them out and work them into your "everyday" playing, I think you'll find just how musical they are. They're especially great with rock, because they give you more volume, and I've found it adds a bit of dimension when using them on "e&," "&a" and "a1" for instance. And you ever notice how many programmed grooves with something like "a1&2" will have the "a" accented? I've found the best way to smoothly achieve that is with heel/toe, and the more you can simulate the programmed groove, the more viable you become in today's musical landscape.

[darth_vater89]

ok, i found the thing that helped me progress the most was to:

1) RAISE THE THRONE up higher so that the top of my legs were angling down rather than sitting level, thus raising everything as well

2) USE MY ANKLES, i cant stress enough how much this helped me, by using ankles and not moving the top half of my leg at all, it helps with endurance, speed and stops RSI (repetative Strain Injury)

3) DONT TENSE UP, the more you tense up, the more energy you use and the higher the risk of RSI. Try and play very loose.

4) after administering all the above, USE A METRONOME. just gives a clear indication of how you're progressing and helps if you ever go into a studio.


pretty much common sense, but helps tremendeously. I found improvements after just 2 weeks of light practice.


May the forks be with you.

[Dispatched]

I've been practicing double bass heel down and i feel it is much more relaxing. With playing heel up in a groove situation and not just repetetive 16th notes, i notice there is a shift in my weight and balance which is discomforting. What do you guys think about heel down double pedal? I know both Travis Smith and Dave Weckl play heel down and Smith is one of the biggest names in metal right now.

[darth_vater89]

Heel down is the best way to play double (in my opinion):

1) stops RSI
2) easier to go faster
3) Easier to do quick fills
4) Requires less energy, therefore, more endurance is made.


May the forks be with you

[Jeroen aka aksie]

I've got the dw9000 also, but it took a while before I really knew how to adjust the pedals to the way I wanted them. here's a little story of my experiences playing double-bass.

I found out that playing with heavier beaters is harder. I play double-bass with the standard DW beaters that come with the dw9000. They are pretty heavy. Now, after a lot of practicing I get more volume and it takes more strength to keep them going in contrary to playing with less heavier beaters. And it is harder to maintain the power at the same level of your kicks(at high speeds) as when kickin slower.

I also tried other beaters, from sonor, I'm talking about the beaters that Thomas Lang uses on his new dvd. They are much lightlyer than the dw9000 originals. When I tighten up the springs a little bit more and use those ones I can play faster.

But I see it like this. When you practice with heavier beaters your muscles will get stronger and you'll need more endurance. Then when you try others you'll need less energy. Bassball players regularly train with a heavier bat than the one they use in the real matches.

I know there's another side to this theory, or maybe even more. All the hours you spend on training your double-bass playing, all the days =) It's a lot of time. Maybe you want to be certain of your result because switching from heavy beaters to less heavier wasn't that easy for me.
BUT in the end you make the same motion, your kicking your pedals down so it can't also be that much different.

hope some db players will try different beaters now =)

Jeroen

[rlestage]

Thanks for the input guys.

I've had more time to learn to adjust these pedals more, I think I've found a good adjustment for them.

[paul c]

The biggest issue for me while playing double bass is that playing heel up works so much better than playing heel down. Also if you move your feet to about halfway down the pedals you will have greater speed and more control over what you play.

[Latin Groover]

I thought it was the other way around. "Stay real close to the bass drum...You get volume from back there, but the speed comes from up the front of the pedal..." Tiger Bill

[defunkt]

Excluding the heel-toe technique what are some good techniques for a little extra speed? My feet are too big to manage heel-toe and I can't afford axis pedals :)

[Latin Groover]

constant release whichis a similar motion but imo alot more consistant. This is the technique Steve Smith uses, watche Derricks video to learn it, i think that one of the guys from the drumbassadors uses this technique as well. On their clip on their DW page he starts to dbls from a low tempo and speeds it up etc but from what i can see ( not much only his legs) jit seems to be of a similar motion, although we cant really see so, yea see Derricks foot technique clip.

[JT1]

Can anyone help me out i have an iron cobra double and it is awesome but when i play my right foot is at the top of the footboard and my left is in the middle of the footboard however when i play fast my left feels much more comfortable than my right and my right knee is starting to hurt as i push down ive tried keeping my right foot in the middle but it keeps moving up, is there anything anyone can suggest. I would be very greatfull

[ChannelFish]

In an effort to get my feet in better shape, I've hooked up a make-shift practice kit basically consisting of a snare pad, a double pedal, and a carefully positioned pillow pressed against the end of my bed. Is anyone aware of any technique flaws that could be created by practicing foot work against a pillow?

[FIFTYMAN]

This is TamaDrummerBoyofDoom. I forgot my password, so I'm going to use Tamsabian from now on.

Double bassing is only as usefull as you make it. I am at 260bpm right now. In common time, I can play 16th notes with each individual foot. I other words with just my right foot i can play 16th notes (1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a), and with just my left foot I can play 16th notes (1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a). Combine them and you get 32nd notes in common time (260bpm).

How? Well there are three factors. First is your style of pedaling, second is the setup of the pedal, and third is the setup of the throne. I use a Tama Iron Cobra Junior (not the Iron cobra regular, mine has different beaters and reads TAMA on the pedals. Costs less too...haha) If you get a pedal, get one that will not burn a hole in you wallet, but will also allow for adjustabilty of the position of the beaters.

Setup of the throne: First, raise your throne so that your thighs are parallel to the pedals. Then raise it an additional 2 inches. Your legs should be pointing downward, but not hanging. Then place a piece of 1/4 of an inch of ply wood underneath the back legs of the throne so you back with be tucked in. This prevents you from leaning back, and tiring out you lower back.

Setup of the pedal: Now the pedal modifications. Lower the beaters towards the bass drum head so that the beaters are about 4 inches from the bass drum head. This will not reduce the volume when you pedal the bass drum.

How to pedal: Now that you legs are on the throne resting, pedal using only your foot. Simply tap your foot on the pedal. You'll notice that you use only your calf, rather than your whole leg. You never want to generate your power from your hips, lower back, or thighs, because they will all get sore and tire easily. Remember to make full strokes, returning back to the pedal's original position before making another stroke, and always keep your foot on the pedal. Note that you can only get above 240 bpm by this method.
YO, THIS WORKS,ARE YOU PUTTING YOUR WEIGHT ON THE BALLS OF YER FEET AND USING THAT FOR BALANCE, THE SEAT ANGLE FEELS WEIRD AT FIRST BUT SURE HELPS WITH THE LEANING BACK, BALLISTIC INDEED!

[sloppyn9ne]

yeah dont type in all caps thanks.

[FIFTYMAN]

Hey all, how's everyone doing? Thanks to all who have posted, there has been some really helpful insight on this thread. I've been working on the double bass thing since October and it has been frustrating to say the least. One day I'm playing 16ths at 230(sloppy as hell) the next day my co-ordination is shot at 130. I'm convinced that there is no substitute for extremely slow and deliberate practice. I'm talking 16ths at 40 bpm. This gets pretty boring, but the body is alot slower than the mind and needs very clear and simple to understand instruction if any progress is to be made. I've found this to be useful with the ankle only movement that guys like George Kollias use. I also belive in the three P's. PATIENCE, PERSISTENCE, POSITIVE( attitude ) Thanks again and never stop playing!

[Timbo]

Hey drummer guys....

I am physiotherapist and drummer .
My tip :

Every individual person will adept in another way to speed.


I would practice : heel up and heel down : single foot and both together.



Dont waste much energy in analysing technique of one of your favourit drummer or of someone else .

It leads to NOTHING ! and yes I have tried many many things out ... I think all :)
The spring tension : some fast drummers tighten it uo some loose it up .


I came up with this : If you playing heel up only : tight playing heel down : more loosely



Just try it

[Big_Philly]

I play heels down, yet I tighten my pedal up quite a bit, gives me more feedback. The left side of my twin pedal (not two bassdrums, can't afoord it and personally I think a twin pedal is more tasteful but that's just my opinion) is a little looser than the right side, but I believe I will tighten it up in the future when I get the left foot coordination better.

I do think it's not good to just rush into metal beats from the start, it is a good idea to do some basic rudiments (as was already said in the beginning of this thread), first using 8th notes. I have a book called Leonardo Euro Drums, there's a section containing rudiments that are meant for your hands but you could choose to do them with your feet. But there's also a section with about 85 patterns for double bass playing. Starts with 4-limb rudiments for basic coordination and limb independence, sequences that are hard to apply in most musical situations but really challenge your coordination and limb independence. After the rudiments there's a dozen grooves involving double bass.
It is very hard to play 16th notes constantly throughout a song (I get sloppy after 2 or 3 measures already), begin with patterns like the "under a glass moon" groove explained by mike portnoy (video here on drummerworld).

I also agree with the three P's of fiftyman: Patience, Persistence, Positive attitude. Keep those 3 P's and you'll be playing along to sonata arctica in 4 months (means I have 3 more months to go, I'll see if I can back it up by then :) )

[FIFTYMAN]

Hey all, fiftyman here, wassup? The thing I just realised is that the left foot has to learn how to bounce. I was practicing all these ankle and heel down methods, but could not get a nice powerful flow at say 120 to 140. Just practicing a full leg drop/ bounce with my left leg seemed to provided the missing link in the co-ordination that was eluding me. Who knows maybe the next time I sit down it won't work but I think/hope I'm on to somethng, hmmmm...........


THE ENEMY OF THE GREAT IS OFTEN THE GOOD!

[tresenddrums]

If you want to make your double-bass drum dreams come true there are only two words:

STICK CONTROL

After years of failed attempts and practice methods, this I have found to be the best tool for achieving great technique and ability.

Set your metronome to a speed that you feel comfortable playing pattern 13 on pg 5 at, (RRRR LLLL). Now take that metronome setting and take it down 5 bpm. The key is to practice at a speed that you can do anything at, and have completely mastered. What I do is go through stick control to the end of the flam section on this comfortable tempo, then once I have gone through half of the book to this point, which has covered a wide arrange of various patterns (singles, doubles, triplets, flams), I feel I have completely mastered this tempo. Then I bump the metronome up 2 bpm. It is a slight change, but so slight that it isnt terribly noticeable and is just out of your comfort zone. I then repeat the same routine of going through stick control. It takes me roughly 2 weeks per tempo, but after a month of this method I noticed dramatic improvement and control I never had with my feet before.

I also get awesome results using this method with my hands as well.

[rlestage]

This has probably been said before...but if it hasnt.....

STRETCH!

always always stretch after drumming

[Exident]

Hey,
could someone help me to find the derick healtoe video?
I need it but i don´t find it.

.Tobi

[burgess-123]

my fend told me this and i hav thoguth about this and if you want to increase ur bpm on the bass drum then when after u hav pressed down with the front off ur foot then kick it with the ur heel and then bring the toes forward again and hit and continually do this

[hawk9290]

sounds like the reverse of heel-toe technique your talking about. You're right though, it does work, and I've used it, but for me it is more natural to kick the heel then press down the toe (this is generally more common as well). It depends on the style you play the bass pedal too, like I play heel down most of the time, so for me its easier to press heel then toe; heel up playing though would work to go from toe to heel. You have to watch with a double pedal that all the double strokes come out even, or else it will sound like your playing a bunch of really fast flams though.

[Deathmetalconga]

Ur was an ancient city in southern Mesopotamia, located near the mouth (at the time) of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers on the Persian Gulf and close to Eridu. It is considered to be the earliest known civilization in world history. Because of marine regression, the remains are now well inland in present-day Iraq, south of the Euphrates on its right bank, and named Tell el-Mukayyar [1], near the city of Nasiriyah south of Baghdad.

The site is marked by the ruins of a ziggurat, still largely intact, and by a settlement mound. The ziggurat is a temple of Nanna, the moon deity in Sumerian mythology, and has two stages constructed from brick: in the lower stage the bricks are joined together with bitumen, in the upper stage they are joined with mortar. The Sumerian name for this city was Urim.[2]

[Tama Player]

Yea dis teckniqe seams 2 werk goode wit speead i yuse it sumtimes cuz it helps wit u going faste. i like it alut.

I'm sorry I just couldn't help myself!

Peace
AGR

[h3r3tic]

You guys are talking about the heel toe technique right?

[Jivi]

Derek Roddy and George Kollias use the flat foot technique or slight variations of it. Search around for it, its what i use and i find very effective for speed and power.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Ur was an ancient city in southern Mesopotamia, located near the mouth (at the time) of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers on the Persian Gulf and close to Eridu. It is considered to be the earliest known civilization in world history. Because of marine regression, the remains are now well inland in present-day Iraq, south of the Euphrates on its right bank, and named Tell el-Mukayyar [1], near the city of Nasiriyah south of Baghdad.

The site is marked by the ruins of a ziggurat, still largely intact, and by a settlement mound. The ziggurat is a temple of Nanna, the moon deity in Sumerian mythology, and has two stages constructed from brick: in the lower stage the bricks are joined together with bitumen, in the upper stage they are joined with mortar. The Sumerian name for this city was Urim.[2]

Where's Hammurabi?! Bring him to me!

[emee]

I want to improve my doudle bass technique without using pedals, is there any exercise???

[Deathmetalconga]

Where's Hammurabi?! Bring him to me!

I believe one of the laws in the Code of Hammurabi said you shouldn't type in all caps and you should spell out words, unless you want to confuse people.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I believe one of the laws in the Code of Hammurabi said you shouldn't type in all caps and you should spell out words, unless you want to confuse people.

Absolutely, unless you want to face 'extreme manipulation of the limbs.'

[Big_Philly]

I recently noticed how the muscles in my lower left leg, next to the shin bone, tense up differently than the ones on my right. I noticed that when I was practising without a pedal, I noticed how the strokes of my right foot were perfectly coordinated whereas my left foot would just plummet into the ground. Trying to make both legs do the same thing immediately helps, or so it seems. Today I was able to play heel-up at 120bpm (16th notes, so actually delivering 480 strokes per minute), which is a first-time and also a record for me. My absolute record in speed is at about 130bpm now (16th notes once again), but that was luck since the next day I couldn't even keep a straight beat at 105...

The morale: monitor the muscle contractions of your "strong" leg, and try to copy-paste that to your weak leg.

[Psycalamaro]

i watched a derek roddy video time ago
he says that practicing slow is not the right way to get speed
if you want a certainly speed you'ii have to practice that speed,beacause if you play at 120 bpm you use a tecnique and a 200 you're playing another,it's not the same movement.
i found this in part true ,in fact you practice both,qhen you practice slow,i mean VERY SLOW for long periods of time,it will rinforce your muscles and it allows you to play fast for oong time

[tomtomz]

Some ideas...

First, decide whether the batter head rebound will factor into your pedal method. If you've got coffee can sized holes in the resonant BD head, you won't get the same beater bounce off the batter head. Looser springs (leading to more speed in many cases) may be possible with a better rebound off the batter head. Positioning the beater near center will also increase rebound.

Second, throw out or EBAY cheap BD pedals and replace them with something good. Not trying to start a war here, but there is a threshold of quality that many pedals don't meet. Cobras, DWs, etc. are good. The best Pearl pedal is good enough. Good beaters (like ajustable Cobra beaters) help by providing a sliding weight to adjust beater.

Third, figure out how to make the L and R beats sound a bit different. On double pedals, try mixing wood and felt beaters. With two separate BDs, tune one BD a little lower. The brain learns faster when it hears a difference - my own experience. I often use my Left foot for ghost notes, similar to ghost noting my snare. My left BD is lower pitched for that reason.

Fourth, read and follow a good book/DVD. Joe Franco's book Double Bass Drumming really helped me get started, and I've moved on to tougher material in the 10 years since I worked through that book.

Finally, practice. Same drills you built hand skills with. Joe Franco has a few nice, simple rudiments for the feet that build into patterns. Bass rolls are cool but not needed most of the time. Keep it in your pants, enuff said.

Patience and practice. There are no shortcuts, but you can learn some easy stuff to use and build upon, developing strength, speed, and skill as you go.

Learn to play a slow triplet shuffle with all six beats for a change. "Soulshine" by Allman Brothers Band is a good starter to play along with. Then speed up to "Some Kinda Wonderful" by Grand Funk RR. Those are but a few suggestions to get your feet started.

[tomtomz]

Drumming is not about how many notes spread across how many drums in how many seconds. Try getting paid on that basis - more notes, more money.

Ringo and Charlie Watts proved that the most money was earned with the fewest notes.
Neither are my favorites.

Musicianship is what we're developing, and the taste to make the decisions about what to play or what not to play. Good chops are part of that, but freaky fast feet are seldom musically appropriate - ask any Bass player worth his sand for an opinion about your pedal work. Too much is simply too much.

That said, strong fast chops can be fun to practice, show your girlfriend, or help sell a pedal at NAMM. Stick twirling is in that same category - looks good until you drop a beat and the band gives you that look.

Plenty of guys on this forum can do more with one foot than we can do with two, and keep it musical.

[EternalArcadia]

Drumming is not about how many notes spread across how many drums in how many seconds. Try getting paid on that basis - more notes, more money.

Ringo and Charlie Watts proved that the most money was earned with the fewest notes.
Neither are my favorites.

Musicianship is what we're developing, and the taste to make the decisions about what to play or what not to play. Good chops are part of that, but freaky fast feet are seldom musically appropriate - ask any Bass player worth his sand for an opinion about your pedal work. Too much is simply too much.

That said, strong fast chops can be fun to practice, show your girlfriend, or help sell a pedal at NAMM. Stick twirling is in that same category - looks good until you drop a beat and the band gives you that look.

Plenty of guys on this forum can do more with one foot than we can do with two, and keep it musical.

just because many drumming icons never used many notes or didnt have a double bass, doesnt mean at all that they are better then anyone else, no one can be better than anyone else at their own style. By saying "too much" that is by each and every persons opinion. too much to me could be 16th notes on the bass drum the whole song, too much to you could be double bass every other measure. double bass doesnt quite take away ones ability to be musical.

[tomtomz]

double bass doesnt quite take away ones ability to be musical. That is why I use mine, it adds another tool to my creative musical toolbox. Admittedly, I overuse my DB - flams, flamacues, paradiddles, double stroke rolls.

Then I get that look from the Bass player which says "stay in the pocket, showoff, and leave some space for the rest of the band." Charlie Watts does that better than I ever could - I don't have his ability to simplify a groove and to drive it with minimal notes.

Often "too much" is decided by the band, not the drummer accused of playing "too much."

[IAChoquette311]

im guessing this is gonna sound stupid and maybe its even been discussed in this thread. 589 posts cant read them all. I just bought a double bass pedal and im god awful, but its only been a weak and i am seeing improvement so i guess all i need to do is keep playing. Anyways, I've read that people can really feel it in there legs when they play db like working out and feeling your muscles burn. I haven't felt that at all and like i said i can already feel myself getting faster and more comfortable with my dbp's. But when im sitting at my computer like now and im listening to music and doin i guess a mock db, where im just sitting with me heels down and lifting the toes of each foot repeatedly real fast, it burns like crazy and i can only do it for a minute or two. If i do this alot can this somehow help? By the way i play heal up but if this will build muscles in my leg and i can achieve a faster speed heel down ill play it that way. Thanks for any answers or opinions. I guess its wishfull thinking but i wouldn't mind getting better at db by just sitting at the computer and lifting the front of my feet real fast.

[STICKLER]

true i totally agree u dnt need speed or fast licks on the pedals but having the option is always gud!drums is no way about speed if u can keep a decent beat constant in time that makes a gud drummer but it is still vital that u develop ur feet skills and technique 2!even using ur hi-hats instead of ur left double pedal can give huge dimention and dinamics to ur playing!
practicing rudements on the feet is just as important as ur hands!play singles,doubles,triplets,ratamucue,double and triple ratamacues, paradiddles, double paradiddles,paradiddlediddle,paradiddle with the diddle in the middle,flam,ruff,rolls anythin u could possible imagine is playable on the feet as it is on the hands!it is critical to develope this technique. yes ur right fast foot work is not critical but a smooth patern is!and this requires a decent set of pedals!
Speed is only developed after ur basic technique skill timing and rhythm is perfect!if u cnt get that basic perfect then playing it quick will sound even worse!
U will barly ever need 2use fast feet but u must develop a steady constant rhythm at any speed!pedals d play a huge part in this just like sticks do wen playing with the hands!

no offence but the "great ringo star" is hardly a drumming icon in my eyes!yes he kept in time but thats as far as his drumming went!no imagination!
he is only know because of the beatles NOT his skill or talent as a drummer!

[dw D]

i watched a derek roddy video time ago
he says that practicing slow is not the right way to get speed
if you want a certainly speed you'ii have to practice that speed,beacause if you play at 120 bpm you use a tecnique and a 200 you're playing another,it's not the same movement.
i found this in part true ,in fact you practice both,qhen you practice slow,i mean VERY SLOW for long periods of time,it will rinforce your muscles and it allows you to play fast for oong time

True!

Stay slow and hit hard. Speed will come with time.

[LostRythym]

anyone knows anything about the flatfoot technique? ive watched videos but am still not sure about the concept of it.

[KevinKeiser]

is there anybody who plays double bass heel DOWN? i'd like to do it that way, but since half a year, i'm losing my motivation because i can't see any success.

(sorry if someone already wrote that, but i read the first 3 pages of this thread and nobody wrote about it there, so i thought nobody has did it yet. =)

[Tim Waterson]

is there anybody who plays double bass heel DOWN? i'd like to do it that way, but since half a year, i'm losing my motivation because i can't see any success.

(sorry if someone already wrote that, but i read the first 3 pages of this thread and nobody wrote about it there, so i thought nobody has did it yet. =)
1/2 a year is not very much time so have patience.
Steve Smith dedicated 6 months to learning the constant release motion and were talking one of the greatest drummers to ever live....so have patience.
I try to develope my patterns heel down as this is where you get the most CONTROL after you learn its a simple transition to heel up..
Good luck and keep us posted
Tim

[drummingman]

is there anybody who plays double bass heel DOWN? i'd like to do it that way, but since half a year, i'm losing my motivation because i can't see any success.

(sorry if someone already wrote that, but i read the first 3 pages of this thread and nobody wrote about it there, so i thought nobody has did it yet. =)
i just read that the dude from trivium plays double bass heels down.his name is travis smith and from what i know his feet are fast.

[z0mbie]

I dont know about you guys put i gotta have a click going. Especially for double bass drumming, you dont wanna be fluctuating between 180-200 bpm if a song is at 190. Luckily for me i have a TD-3 Roland Kit and its sweet for practicing bass skills with the click on the brain. I've been playing with a double pedal now for a while and it took me about 2 years of hard practice to get the right technique for me, thank god for Derek Roddy thats all i can say lol

[deltadrummer1]

Excluding the heel-toe technique what are some good techniques for a little extra speed? My feet are too big to manage heel-toe and I can't afford axis pedals :)

Then you must not be doing something right man.. I have some big feet myself and I can pull of the heel toe just fine.

[Therma lobsterdore]

Great thread you lot! I know that I'm probably going to be reiterating what's already been said here (it's inevitable with a thread this huge!) but stick control and rudiments are the key to getting good on the double bass. I do page 1 of stick control on my hands and feet everyday (sometimes together, sometimes separate depending on much time I have), along with alot of paradiddles (and the various variations), double/triple/quad strokes and that kind of thing.

Another thing that can help is simply doing triplets with your feet, but doing them in 16th's and leaving a 1 beat rest in between each triplet, so it would look like this (all on the kicks of course):

RLR-LRL-RLR-LRL

If you add 8th note hats/ride and some snare work into this pattern it can sound really sweet, lots of metal drummers use it. Start slow and build up of course, I'm still struggling to get this at a reasonable speed after 4-5 months of double bassness.

Ok and finally, I used to struggle with moving my left foot in between the kick pedal and the hat pedal when doing fast double bass rolls. What helped me out was to do single footed paradiddles between the kick pedal and the hat pedal, I usually do this for 5 mins a day at 100bpm in 8th's (haven't been doing it too long). This can be applied to both feet of course if you have hats on both sides.

[amba]

Hello all!
Great thread but i didn't see anything about this...perhaps someone can help...

I've been working with the Thomas Lang DVD Creative Coordination and advanced foot technique...great stuff and I am on track with it...I pretty happy with my feet...

Basically I have narrowed my foot techniques to this:
1: One...total heel up...lots o leg...cool... got it...
2: Heel slightly off the heelplate...hover the heel and swivel at the ankle...(I like it but this is the culprit and source of this post...)
3: and all heel down...good for speed and low volume...however this technique is getting stronger...

I have been only playing dbl bass seriously now for only a year or so...I love it and besides...that is what the modern drummer is doing...

I find that I am ok with all the above ways but I have a weird thing going on with the second way...the "heel hover." When I want to "twitch some speed" or just spaz out...I can get that happening on both feet...lots of swivel at the ankle and little leg movement...it's not all that loud or strong yet but the speed potential is there...anyway, here is what is happening...I can twitch...but most of the time both my feet are twitching at the same time! Not alternating...they do sometimes...and when they do, it's fast...I want this all the time...it's fast...and this is a bit beyond staring slow and working my way up...there's slow and working it up and then there's spaz speed...not something I can work up to...at least not that I can tell...

Is this or has this happened to any of you? And how do I get my damn feet to alternate?! I love this potential but I'm afraid the more I work on Spaz Speed, the more I will just engrain or muscle memory the simultaneous playing...make sense?

This kinda sucks...makes me mad!!! I hit my legs and yell "STOP!!" hee hee Help.....

Peace to you all......

Michael P. Barton

www.ambadextro.com

[drummingman]

i find that with the "heel hover" technique where you just hold your heel justb a little about the pedal and just use the ankle is very uncomfortable for me. so i have been working on heels down just using the ankles. this way im working the ankles for the speed and i do believe that i can build up the power over time.i mean, when the heel is just a bit up or when the heel is on the pedal the volume is just about the same anyway.
when im going slower and doing double bass i do heels up using legs. but the whole holding both legs up using just the ankles is not a comfortable thing for me. and a lot of guys use this technique, dom famularo, tiger bill, flo mounier to name a few. i just dont know how they ever got it to feel comfortable.
for me when im using just ankles i just feel so much better heels down. and for getting the power that way i just let the beater come back real far before i push down again.
so, are there any heel down double bass players here?

[drummingman]

well i just had a lesson with tiger bill yesterday and he gave me some great insites about playing double bass just from the ankles. first, you need to sit back farther away from the pedals so that you legs are at an angle slanted. so that you feet are not right nder your knees. then you dont just lift your heels you push into the pedals with the ballss of your feet and toes to raise your heels, but you do it so lightly that you are not pushing the beaters into or neer the head. after that you make the stroke very fast with the ankles.
from there he has me doing just quick wacks 1 foot at a time. and between wacks he has me resting my heels because im doing just 1 beat per time. he is having me build in the fast reflexes at this point to do the strokes.
so its not lifting the heels and freezing that position at all.

[johnhavart]

Drummingman,

Thanks for your info about tiger. As I'm French, could I ask you what do you nmean by wack ?

Thanks John

[schist]

My practice routine for double bass consists of:

Stone Killer:

RRRR LLLL (1 min)
RRRR RRRR LLLL LLLL (2 min)
RRRR RRRR RRRR LLLL LLLL LLLL (3 min)
RRRR RRRR RRRR RRRR LLLL LLLL LLLL LLLL (4 min)
32nd note single strokes (1 min)

Repeat 3 times.

Then I do paradiddles and double paradiddles for 1 minute each.

I originally started at a slow tempo (60BPM), then moved it up by 5BPM each week. Be careful - it starts to get tricky at around 80BPM.

[II xMETALx II]

Anyone checked out 'Joe Franco Double Bass Drumming' DVD?

Is it worth getting? I was thinking about it the other day...

[djlouis]

I don'y know if anyone has this problem but it's very frustrating . I can do single stroke roll 16th from 170-210 bpm but i can hardly do it at 110 bpm . When my legs are involved at slower tempo I always lose my balance and my feet's going out of control . I tried different seat height, spring tension and i tried leading with my left (like Vinnie Paul) and nothing seems to work . I know it's a balance problem that make me loose control but I don't know what to do anymore . Any help?

[djlouis]

Seems like I'm the only one with that problem!

[Big_Philly]

Well I have something that looks like it, it's fading now that I have a better training method... but I used to be comfortable at 110bpm but not at 80 or so. I now am comfortable anywhere below 110 bpm. How long have you been playing double bass? And what exercises do you do to train your double bass skills?

[djlouis]

I'm playing double bass for about 2 years now and my speed is increasing really slowly . I used to do a lot of jazz with the hi-hat on 2 & 4 and i often do quarter or eight notes with the hi-hat when i play beat, so my left foot is used to lead in a certain way but when i try to do double bass i loose control (none of my foot really wants to lead...lol) . I know that the problem is in my brain (for double bass at least) cause I have no problem doing 8th notes with both my feet in a wide range of speed, but when i'm putting the two together (alternating to do 16th notes) it falls appart . I loose control, balance and i don't really know where the pulse is ( I really have to be careful of my feet to put the backbeat at the right place), so my feets just speed up . I always practice with a metronome and i do mainly 16th notes and 8th notes triplet under different ride pattern . I don't get that problem at higher speed (180 and above) cause my legs are barely moving at that speed and i keep my balance because of that . But what's the utility of going fast if ican't go slow? I practice double bass for about 1 or 2 hour a day and it does't seem to go better . Oh i forgot to say that i've tried different seat height and different spring tension . I will appreciate to hear about some exercises or tips to help me if you got some . Thanks

[Big_Philly]

I started a thread on specific double bass exercises a few days ago, the first post contains an exercise (attached file) that you might find helpful. That exercise is developed for bass drum coordination at different timings around the beat. It also helps develop quick foot twitches so it's an allround way to develop your left (and right!) foot. The thread is here (http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34883)

[Drummerboy30]

I just finished reading an article with Jason Bittner and he said that he's not as fast as he used to be on the double kick due to his age.

I have to say that's a load of crap. I'm older than him and I can play faster than ever. Tim Waterson is older than both of us and he's the world record holder!!!

If you rely on muscular strength as the backbone of your technique then of course, you will slow down with age. That's why you need to learn proper techniques and get the work done with half the effort. The faster I go, the less I rely on brute force.

It's like a horse: It has several gaits for several speeds. A horse "switches gears" from a trot to a gallop in order to go faster. If the horse tried to trot fast it would never get too fast and it would be exhausted from the effort.

Above 200 BPM you'd better get some serious technique going or you will always rely on muscles to get you through. You need to switch gears from the big leg muscles over to the ankle muscles. Smaller muscles are faster and deplete you less.

Don't always believe someone is right just because they're famous also.

I couldn't agree more with this. This is exactly the way I look at it.

[Tim Waterson]

I couldn't agree more with this. This is exactly the way I look at it.
I am surprised JASON would say that
[I] just turned 47 and I am faster than I ever was....LOL
its all in the Technique Motions and applications.......
Tim

[Devin]

I don't know if anyone's said this yet because I'm too lazy to read all 18 pages.
Something you could do with paradiddles is do a right paradiddle with your hands and left with your feet...or the other way around.
RLRRLRLL
LRLLRLRR

[branflakes992]

Who here knows what a wobble board is? You see them at gyms. My question is, they are made to improve your twitch muscles to improve balance so they would probably improve bass drum speed right?

[kevin]

I'm playing double bass for about 2 years now and my speed is increasing really slowly . I used to do a lot of jazz with the hi-hat on 2 & 4 and i often do quarter or eight notes with the hi-hat when i play beat, so my left foot is used to lead in a certain way but when i try to do double bass i loose control (none of my foot really wants to lead...lol) . I know that the problem is in my brain (for double bass at least) cause I have no problem doing 8th notes with both my feet in a wide range of speed, but when i'm putting the two together (alternating to do 16th notes) it falls appart . I loose control, balance and i don't really know where the pulse is ( I really have to be careful of my feet to put the backbeat at the right place), so my feets just speed up . I always practice with a metronome and i do mainly 16th notes and 8th notes triplet under different ride pattern . I don't get that problem at higher speed (180 and above) cause my legs are barely moving at that speed and i keep my balance because of that . But what's the utility of going fast if ican't go slow? I practice double bass for about 1 or 2 hour a day and it does't seem to go better . Oh i forgot to say that i've tried different seat height and different spring tension . I will appreciate to hear about some exercises or tips to help me if you got some . Thanks


hey dj.. i think you can do 16th notes with 1/8 hi-hat and snare at 2 n 4 in a very slow tempos.. try to get balance your feet in 75 bpm.. if it still not balance, try lower bpm until you get your balance.. after that, take practice more and more until you get balance in all tempos,

[hitman050]

Started taking double bass seriously about 6 weeks ago.

I started at 40BPM 16th notes, trying to make all the notes as even as possible. Alternating between left foot lead and right foot lead. Practiced playing continously at a given tempo for 10 mins almost everyday.

Now, I'm at 75BPM 16th notes, and am fairly comfortable for a few minutes, until my legs pain a bit, but I guess my muscles need to get used to the speed. I have also started 8th triplets at 75BPM, but I am comfortable with that. Also, trying to improve my coordination by adding the hi hat and snare drum. Play 16th notes at 60BPM on the bass drum, with 8th notes on the hi hate, and snare on the 1 and the 3. I will also start working on hand feet combo from now. Will do the simple linear pattern of right hand-left hand-right foot-left foot. Will extend my sessions to 20 minutes now.

Can anyone give me any advise at this stage on how I can improve. Should I keep going like this? What about the technique. At the moment, I'm using Iron Cobra Power Glides, with loose spring tension. My technique is to just let the beater bounce off the head. Is there any type of Gladstone technique for bass drum, so I can get continuous notes going on my feet?

And about the motion, I am using a full motion of my legs, and not only my ankles to play the stroke. Is that something I should change?

Thanks

[Big_Philly]

Who here knows what a wobble board is? You see them at gyms. My question is, they are made to improve your twitch muscles to improve balance so they would probably improve bass drum speed right?

That might just work. But you can also stand on one leg on a soft surfece (a couch, or a matress) and try to keep in balance. That wat you wont have to go to the gym.

[schist]

Anyone else out there finding it a challenge to keep balance when playing 16th-notes at 80BPM? (RLRL alternating)

[Big_Philly]

Anyone else out there finding it a challenge to keep balance when playing 16th-notes at 80BPM? (RLRL alternating)

No, not particularly. Though I tried it from my office chair. Maybe try playing less loud, using less of your legs. Though I have no idea if that makes sense, I don't know what sort of motion you use.

[gkdrummerboy]

Anyone else out there finding it a challenge to keep balance when playing 16th-notes at 80BPM? (RLRL alternating)

Well not 80bpm, but at higher speeds like 110-120 I lose balance which means I can't keep the 16th's steady for more than a few measures. This is because I'm lightweight, it's a lot easier if your upper body is heavy to have a good balance/ foundation for your pedaling.You don't wobble around as much. It's really frustrating, 3 years and I can't even play 16th notes at 120bpm consistently.

[gkdrummerboy]

Started taking double bass seriously about 6 weeks ago.

I started at 40BPM 16th notes, trying to make all the notes as even as possible. Alternating between left foot lead and right foot lead. Practiced playing continously at a given tempo for 10 mins almost everyday.


Thanks

What I do is I play 16th notes at 100bpm everyday and add 5 bpm every time. Instead of timing it though, I count 1000 beats of playing instead of setting a timer. I find that when you concentrate on something else, your body naturally begins to drum as if the legs were PART of your body. Because most people practice with the thought that the legs are separate from the hands and such, but when you think of everything as a whole it helps. So don't isolate your thought when it comes to leg work.

-GK

[gkdrummerboy]

I don'y know if anyone has this problem but it's very frustrating . I can do single stroke roll 16th from 170-210 bpm but i can hardly do it at 110 bpm . When my legs are involved at slower tempo I always lose my balance and my feet's going out of control . I tried different seat height, spring tension and i tried leading with my left (like Vinnie Paul) and nothing seems to work . I know it's a balance problem that make me loose control but I don't know what to do anymore . Any help?

How did you get that fast in 2 years, I practiced the hell out of myself (5 hours in one day once) and I can't even play 16th notes at 120bpm consistently. There were like there period though, like every few months I would have excellent control and speed, but then it would die, as if my legs have a mind of their own.

[gkdrummerboy]

I recently noticed how the muscles in my lower left leg, next to the shin bone, tense up differently than the ones on my right. I noticed that when I was practising without a pedal, I noticed how the strokes of my right foot were perfectly coordinated whereas my left foot would just plummet into the ground. Trying to make both legs do the same thing immediately helps, or so it seems. Today I was able to play heel-up at 120bpm (16th notes, so actually delivering 480 strokes per minute), which is a first-time and also a record for me. My absolute record in speed is at about 130bpm now (16th notes once again), but that was luck since the next day I couldn't even keep a straight beat at 105...

The morale: monitor the muscle contractions of your "strong" leg, and try to copy-paste that to your weak leg.

Yeah I get that too, I try practicing my left foot only for that, since I played a year of single pedal with my right foot first, I'm trying that with my left leg now. But you have consistency because I everyone once in a long long while can play really smoothly at 180bpm (16th notes) and now I can't even play 16th notes at 120bpm smoothly.

-GK

P.S. I had a 1 month period where I didn't play for 6 weeks and was on crutches, I was using my left leg so much, when I got back on the kit, the results were amazing. This only lasted a few weeks before my right foot caught on again though, I'm hoping to break my right foot again in another Parkour accident (which shouldn't happen if you know what Parkour is all about).

[jarrod]

Well first to get faster you need to change you technique and what i mean is, when i started double bass i had some werid technique as i got faster it changed and i changed it and since then ive changed it about 6 or 7 times and now i can keep 230-235 (16th notes) for a long period of time. Also change the hieght of your throne so that you thighs are ither straight or on a small ankle down and change you peddel settings a bit. But really you could be sitting to high or to low or even to close. oh and it took about a year of serious practise to get to what i am at. luckly i am only 17 :D. I practised for about 3 hours a day on weeks days and up to 7 during the holiadys and some weekends. I have slowed down and only play an hour or 2 a day because of year 12 and study ect.

[Buddy9832]

I've been playing double bass for about 2 years now. I'm not even going to begin to say that my double bass drumming is excelent but I have definatly noticed an increase in speed and comfortability while playing double bass. Many of the fills I use these days have double bass in them, much like the mike portnoy fills.

Anyway an exsersise that my drum teacher wrote out for me wayback then is this:

20234

It definatly helped me increase my speed in drumming. It was very useful and also helped me become more comfortable on it.

I suggest you start of very slow when doing this exercise. It is very difficult to play anything past six tuplets at even 120 bpm.

I usually can't play everything in this exersise but it definatly helps. Practice it over and over.

[gkdrummerboy]

I have officially decided to walk on crutches to strengthen my weaker leg, regardless of a broken foot or not. Because when I did break my foot and walk on crutches, when I got back on the pedals, it was awesome.

[Big_Philly]

I'm gonna do that Stone Killer thing that Schist talked about, playing a double pedal on my couch, along with playing along to double bass songs. I'm trying to play some Sonata Arctica, three of their songs to be precise: Black Sheep, Land of the Free and Victoria's Secret. Black Sheep and Land of the Free are going pretty well. I've been playing double bass for nearly two years now and though I haven't been practising very consistently I am a little disappointed being able to do about 125bpm 16ths consistently, 150bpm for short bursts.

[schist]

playing a double pedal on my couch, along with playing along to double bass songs. I'm trying to play some Sonata Arctica, three of their songs to be precise: Black Sheep, Land of the Free and Victoria's Secret. Black Sheep and Land of the Free are going pretty well. I've been playing double bass for nearly two years now and though I haven't been practising very consistently I am a little disappointed being able to do about 125bpm 16ths consistently, 150bpm for short bursts.

Dude, do it. Pretty much all my double bass practice happens on a couch/bedside. I usually spend at least 1 - 1.5 hours a day playing along to double bass songs.

My current song schedule consists of:

Morbid Angel - "Dominate" (~212BPM)
Anata - "Downward Spiral Into Madness" (~216BPM)
Anata - "Entropy Within" (~220BPM)

I normally spend about 10-20 minutes warming up beforehand with slower "fast" double bass songs ("Hammer Smashed Face", "Disciple" etc.) before leaping into it. Even when fully warmed up, though, "Entropy Within" is still a f**ker to get down consistently.

As of now, I can hold 16ths at 210-215BPM for about 1 minute (probably even faster/longer on an actual bass drum - haven't had the chance to use one for a while). They aren't 100% consistent as of yet, but it's still not bad for someone who's been playing double bass for just over 1 year! :D

As for that Stone Killer exercise, I haven't done for a fair while, and to be honest I only do it now and again. The best solution I've found though is to just play along to songs, and keep pushing yourself physically.

[Big_Philly]

Dude, do it. Pretty much all my double bass practice happens on a couch/bedside. I usually spend at least 1 - 1.5 hours a day playing along to double bass songs.

As for that Stone Killer exercise, I haven't done for a fair while, and to be honest I only do it now and again. The best solution I've found though is to just play along to songs, and keep pushing yourself physically.

That's a lot of practise... kudos for the discipline!!
About the physical pushing: do you tense up at all when you play double bass? I notice that I tense up a lot...
And do you practise the hands part on a pillow or what? Because playing isolated double bass is quite different from double bass in a somg context where you gotta work with your hands as well.

[schist]

That's a lot of practise... kudos for the discipline!!
About the physical pushing: do you tense up at all when you play double bass? I notice that I tense up a lot...
And do you practise the hands part on a pillow or what? Because playing isolated double bass is quite different from double bass in a somg context where you gotta work with your hands as well.

No, I do not tense up. My left foot will occasionally "short out" after a while and I will have to readjust it, but I don't tense up.

I just practice the double bass part on its own. Practicing the hands part on a pillow is probably something I should do, but I've become more concerned with getting the double-bass even and consistent at this point ...

[Big_Philly]

Another thing that I have noticed is that my right foot, being a strong foot (if it were up to my right foot I'd be working on Raining Blood already), twitches more when hitting the bass drum, while the left foot is in more of a harmonic motion, in other words the angle of my left beater varies like a cosine function with respect to time. Much like a pendulum, for the geeks among us. This results in my left foot being less loud on the bass drum than my right, unless I really make the beater travel long distances, which messes up my timing. The key to better timing on double bass for me at the moment is not just pushing my physical boundaries, but also copying the twitch of my right foot to my left. I have a feeling that I might not be the only one with this issue. Hence I posted it ;)

[schist]

I tried practicing the hands part of the song on a pillow today (regular-size pillow), and it all went pretty much swimmingly until I got to playing "Dominate", at which point the size of the pillow was cutting off my left foot motion, and causing the double pedal to "flam" at times. So I moved to a smaller pillow/cushion, and while this was marginally better, the cushion kept moving/falling off my snare stand every 5 seconds.

Bit of a stupid question, but can anyone offer any help here?

[Big_Philly]

maybe clamp it down with your snare stand by tightening it? Simplest solution I can think of.

[6o66er]

I sit at work....12 hour (+) help desk shifts, 4 days a week....with Futz pedals under my desk, and a ProMark XPad. Playing along to Lamb Of God and a couple other bands.

All. Night. Long.

Then on my days off, I work it into the kit. So far, so good. If you work in an office environment, those Futz pedals are GREAT! And if you work night shifts like me...the practice is definitely noticeable when you jump back on the kit.

I practice alot with RLRL/LRLR patterns in 4's, 8's, 10's, and 12's....usually 5 minute to 10 minute intervals each, and like I said....this is for about 8 to 10 hours out of 12 total depending on how UN-busy our desk gets, lol. I switch it up once in a while and do Paradiddles, too.

I also practice 8th's on the pad, matching 8th's with the right foot doing just singles, then add the left foot in for 4, 8, 10, 12, etc. and just keep counting up then back down again. I also alternate between heel up, heel down, and heel toe (yes, I can actually play heel-toe on a Futz pedal...it took some time but I got it down).

After about a month of playing my kicks are becoming even, strong, FAST and are not limited to just infinite RLRL beats.

*note - I keep time with click tracks at home, but at work...I just use the songs I play to. I ripped a bunch of LOG, Devildriver, Hatebreed, Bury Your Dead, etc. to my windows media player at work. Not necessarily my favorites, but definitely good for practice. I have about 25 songs that I've been practicing, and with windows media, I can slow them down to half speed (or less) to learn them.

[stabmasterarson]

Hey, how far away are your beaters from the batter? Mine are 5", I'm using pearl 2 sided beaters using the hard side, on Iron cobra rolling glides, 2 bass drums.

[6o66er]

Hey, how far away are your beaters from the batter? Mine are 5", I'm using pearl 2 sided beaters using the hard side, on Iron cobra rolling glides, 2 bass drums.

Mine are 5" away, too...I have quad beaters, and I use the rounded, more flattened plastics as opposed to the more pronounced oval shaped plastics.

[Tutin]

I tried practicing the hands part of the song on a pillow today (regular-size pillow), and it all went pretty much swimmingly until I got to playing "Dominate", at which point the size of the pillow was cutting off my left foot motion, and causing the double pedal to "flam" at times. So I moved to a smaller pillow/cushion, and while this was marginally better, the cushion kept moving/falling off my snare stand every 5 seconds.

Bit of a stupid question, but can anyone offer any help here?

Put some towels over your snare Jojo style, it's a really good way to go.

Good luck man, sounds like your playings coming along well. I remember giving you tips on double bass last summer, now your playing speeds like me!

Just remember, if you hit a wall lay off for a while. It's so effective.


T

[schist]

Put some towels over your snare Jojo style, it's a really good way to go.

Good luck man, sounds like your playings coming along well. I remember giving you tips on double bass last summer, now your playing speeds like me!

Just remember, if you hit a wall lay off for a while. It's so effective.


T

Yeah, got back on the kit today, and pretty much all my flaws came out at once! LOL

First of all, I need to find an allen key small enough to be able to loosen the spring tension on my Axis X double pedals. They've had the same tension since I bought them (fairly tight), and I can't get any faster than 200-205BPM on an actual bass drum like this. Which is strange, considering I can hit 210-220BPM on a mattress, because I can set the pedal up closer to the surface (so that there is less beater distance during each hit, if that makes sense.) So, by loosening the spring tension, it would require less effort to make each hit at those high speeds.

I've also told myself that by the end of this year I'm getting a new kit (I've had the same Pearl Forum since I started 3 years ago), and it will have 2 bass drums. I just cannot get the right centre of gravity with a double pedal - I find my left foot hanging half way off the pedal at times! I need the pedals/bass drums further apart to be able to play double-bass effectively.

[schist]

Okay, I have a problem.

I can play both feet fairly evenly and consistently on their own, but when I put them together it all goes to shit.

All the weight shifts to my right foot, leaving almost no weight/power in my left. Consequently, my left foot slides up the pedal with no weight to hold it in place, and the roll is pretty much over in 10-15 seconds.

Once again, when playing both feet individually, I don't have this problem.

Can anyone seriously offer any advice? Once this is solved, the puzzle will be pretty much complete.

[Big_Philly]

You may need to slow things down a notch. Playing each foot separately helps a lot but is not the same as playing alternating strokes with both feet. You need to develop a sort of feedback mechanism to correct timing and balance and usually that comes from slowing down a bit - not too much though.

[Derek Roddy]

I have mixed feelings about working each foot in preparation for DB playing.
The reason is.... with exercising" each foot, both are playing the down beats. When playing double bass....one of those feet are playing on the up's.
Now....doesn't sound like it would be a big deal but, if you work on each foot and don't work on them together as well.....you'll end up with flammy doubles.

Work on this stuff "equally"

D.

[Therma lobsterdore]

I agree completley derek, you want to get better at the single stroke roll with both feet, so you should practice a single stroke roll, makes sense really! It's not just a case of having two feet that can 200bpm, it's a case of having two feet that can roll together at 200bpm, your brain has to figure out how to move both feet in an alternating fashion and you'll only learn this by doing it.

So Schist, yes your feet can go at speed x individually, but your brain doesn't know how to control your feet at speed x when alternating. Just keep at it man.

[SEVNT7]

This is a long term exercise that was givin' to me in college, that I then modified to make it harder and more effective. The original exercise was. Using pg. 5 in Stick Control, play each ex. for 1 minute with your feet. It takes 24 minutes.Start at 60 bpm and increase tempo 1 beat per minute each time you do the exercise. Play with heal down to isolate calf muscle. My version is this- HANDS & FEET together. Day-1. part 1. Pg 5, (ex. 1-24 ) 60 bpm (24 min). Part-2.-pg's 5-7. (ex.1-72) straight through no repeats.( @ 60 bpm it takes 9 min.). Part-3- Ex. #1 pg.5, double time (or 16th notes).1 min. heal-down. 1 min. heal-up. 2 min. heal-down. 2 min. heal-up. 3min. heal-down. 3 up. 4 down. 4 up. 5 down. 5 up.(part 3 takes 30 min.) Day-2 Part-1 pg.6 Parts 2&3 same as day-1 ( 61-bpm). Day-3 part-1 pg 7. Parts 2&3 same as day-1 (62 bpm). Each day you do ths exercise keep rotating pg's 5,6 & 7. Entire 3 part ex. should be played nonstop. @ 60 bpm it takes over an hour. (63 Min.) If you can't make it through the entire exercise don't increase tempo. ( note's on technique. All ex. should be played w/the B.D. beater coming fully back to the resting position. Off the drum head. Just like the free stroke w/ the hands. As an added hands technique, Part-3 only, when playing heal-down, hands play w/ fingers only. Heal-up play hands w/ wrists only. I also like my pedal tension to be as loose as possible, so I'm depending on bounce to return the beater to resting position. I also set my pedal up so the resting position of the beater is 90 degrees away from the drum head, like a full stroke position for the hands. Not like most factory pedal settings at around 45 degrees.) Good luck .....T

Schist, Try this, It works. Slooow down and have patience..........T

[jonty1992]

I don't know if anyone's said this yet because I'm too lazy to read all 18 pages.
Something you could do with paradiddles is do a right paradiddle with your hands and left with your feet...or the other way around.
RLRRLRLL
LRLLRLRR

thats not a bad idea i shall try that when i get to my kit next
thanks for that buddy

[SharkyBait911]

Hey guys with the whole bass drum technique....
When i play double bass my right foot has a good technique but my left is awfull !!
Any exersises that can inprove my left foot drumming??

Thanks,

Tris

[diosdude]

here's the link to one of my old bands from like '94. I had been DB drumming for about 3 years at that point. I don't have a metronome handy but i think i was probably around 160-170 bpm back in the day. Now i'm up to about 212 bpm sixteenths over an 8 bar phrase or longer, heel down.

http://www.myspace.com/torquemetal

The way i learned db is i just basically forced myself to practice longer, single stroke sixteenth note rolls TO A METRONOME. i started around 96 bpm and gradually worked up, playing long hours, 2-3 hours a day, 4-5 days a week for 6 months. You have to develop those fast twitch muscle fibers to gain speed and accuracy and that involves playing through the burn.

For those of you who can't play slow, change your technique. Try a "Steve Smith" bass stroke, with your foot parallel to the ground, lift from the hip and stomp straight down, like you're squishing a cockroach. I find when needing a db roll at a very slow tempo, this is the only way i can get consistent, even single strokes.

[schist]

These days, I practice holding single-stroke rolls on a pillow with my feet for about 2 minutes each, left foot leading. First I warm up, then set the metronome to 100BPM and play 32nd-notes, then go up to 104, 108, 112, 116 and finally 120.

I'm also happy to say that in a few weeks I will be the proud owner of a Roland HD-1 "V-Drums Lite" electronic kit, which means I can simulate the drumset experience by actually playing along to songs, as opposed to setting up a pillow on a snare-stand and putting my double pedal up against my mattress! :D

[weezybaby226]

okay. ive been playing drums for about 8 years now if i can say so myself ive gotten pretty good. i love metal and rock etc. blah blah blah

okay heres the dillema ive been playing double bass for about 2 years but i am not getting ANYWHERE. ive watched many diff videos read books, listened to music etc. anytime i try to go to any decent speed my feet speed up and get retarded. i play heel up on pearl eliminators. im going to get that stick control book that everyones talking about but i dont know if its going to help. its like my brain wont allow me to play steady streams of double bass notes. someone please help before i give up playing the music i love

i wouldnt even think about playing this precise or fast http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6oa1GkYNk6w

[Big_Philly]

I have that same problem. Just hang on and have patience. I gave up focussing practise on my double bass technique though, I just try to use it often so it'll come sooner or later.

[SeveringDozza]

Hey guys.

I'm desperately trying to get my double kick faster because I'm in a Thrash Metal band but it seems to be taking a VERY long time and to be honest I am getting pretty impatient with it.

I've got a question about a double kick exercise which I've recently started doing. It has 4 parts each 10 mins:

The first part consists of me playing RLRLRLRL for 10 minutes, starting at 85bpm on my metronome raising it by 2bpm every 2 minutes.

After that, I then do the exact same thing but lead with my left foot (LRLRLRLR)

After that I then do the first exercise again but also add in basic beats with my hands on the hihats + snare or ride + snare.

The last exercise is the same, but leading with my left foot.

I play heel up.

What do you guys think? Is this exercise a good idea? Will it help much?

Cheers.

[Daphfz]

Sounds like a very good practice excercise, i think i might start doing it :P< allthough, i just play double bass at any bpm, while doing a basic beat or blast beat and i seem to be getting faster and faster :)

[Derek Roddy]

Hey guys with the whole bass drum technique....
When i play double bass my right foot has a good technique but my left is awfull !!
Any exersises that can inprove my left foot drumming??

Thanks,

Tris

Use your left foot more.
Anytime you can execute a pattern or part of a song with your left foot....you should be using it.

D.

[Derek Roddy]

Hey guys.

I'm desperately trying to get my double kick faster because I'm in a Thrash Metal band but it seems to be taking a VERY long time and to be honest I am getting pretty impatient with it.

I've got a question about a double kick exercise which I've recently started doing. It has 4 parts each 10 mins:

The first part consists of me playing RLRLRLRL for 10 minutes, starting at 85bpm on my metronome raising it by 2bpm every 2 minutes.

After that, I then do the exact same thing but lead with my left foot (LRLRLRLR)

After that I then do the first exercise again but also add in basic beats with my hands on the hihats + snare or ride + snare.

The last exercise is the same, but leading with my left foot.

I play heel up.

What do you guys think? Is this exercise a good idea? Will it help much?

Cheers.

Yes, this is a good exercise for learning to control your playing but, It will not help you gain the type of speed you're looking for.
The only way you're going to get that type of playing down.... is to tackle it head on. Doesn't matter if it's sloppy at first...(that's why you continue to work on the exercise you posted below.)

Only by doing it...are you going to get there. Trust me.

I see you have Pete in your avatar....play to "Chapel of Ghouls" at least 10 times a day. I think you'll find that.... you'll get it much quicker than "wishing" you could play it or working on an exercise that will not help with the "tempo" factor.
If you're playing the tune and can't finish a double bass part at full note value...drop down to half time and continue the song. DO NOT STOP PLAYING THE SONG.
The next time you do it...you should be able to push a little longer than the previous time and so on.
It works. Another good one is Angel of Death.

Make yourself do it.

Cheers,
D.

[SeveringDozza]

Thanks for the help Derek.

My double kick speed is no where near the speed of it in Chapel of Ghouls. It would be sloppy as hell and most likely all over the place haha.

I just physically can't get that speed. How would it help my double kick speed if I can't physically get that speed in the first place?

[theindian]

Thanks for the help Derek.

My double kick speed is no where near the speed of it in Chapel of Ghouls. It would be sloppy as hell and most likely all over the place haha.

I just physically can't get that speed. How would it help my double kick speed if I can't physically get that speed in the first place?

You have to push yourself to get there, if thats too fast then find another song thats slower than chapel of ghouls but still fast enough to push your top playing speed. I started out with really slow songs like Exciter (judas priest) and then worked up to stuff like Morbid Angel. Like Derek said it will be sloppy at first but you learn to control speed as you progress.

[Derek Roddy]

My double kick speed is no where near the speed of it in Chapel of Ghouls. It would be sloppy as hell and most likely all over the place haha.

Haha...that's the entire point.
What drummers don't realize is that....this type of playing doesn't come to you unless you are actually doing it.Force yourself through it...and you'll be playing it much faster than...."working on playing it". Your body... will figure out how to do what you're asking it to do. If you don't ask it.....it doesn't know. If you don't show your body what you want it to do...you'll never get it.

This is entirely a different ball game than working on single stroke on a pad with your hands or feet.

You'll get it...just go for it.
Yes, it will be sloppy at first but, like I said.....You have to show your body what you expect of it.
While pushing yourself to do this....you also work on the other exercises that will give you control. You have to do both.
Cheers,
D.

[SeveringDozza]

Alright cool.

Thanks a lot for the help Derek.

You have to push yourself to get there, if thats too fast then find another song thats slower than chapel of ghouls but still fast enough to push your top playing speed. I started out with really slow songs like Exciter (judas priest) and then worked up to stuff like Morbid Angel. Like Derek said it will be sloppy at first but you learn to control speed as you progress.

You too man, thanks.

[JT1]

Can anyone give me any advice on doing fills with the hands over the top of constant 16th notes? I find i can do rolls over the top of double bass no problem at home but in a band situation my feet will go out of time when i try it, it's really frustrating. I also feel when i am doing double bass quite quickly, that i can't really feel each stroke that i play on the pedals and i believe this may be the problem. Can anyone help me out with some excercises or possible ideas to stop this from happening? Thanks.

[JT1]

Haha...that's the entire point.
What drummers don't realize is that....this type of playing doesn't come to you unless you are actually doing it.Force yourself through it...and you'll be playing it much faster than...."working on playing it". Your body... will figure out how to do what you're asking it to do. If you don't ask it.....it doesn't know. If you don't show your body what you want it to do...you'll never get it.

This is entirely a different ball game than working on single stroke on a pad with your hands or feet.

You'll get it...just go for it.
Yes, it will be sloppy at first but, like I said.....You have to show your body what you expect of it.
While pushing yourself to do this....you also work on the other exercises that will give you control. You have to do both.
Cheers,
D.

That's awesome advice Derek, i found that i used to throw myself into the deep end and it worked after a while. You couldn't possibly help with my other query could you? By the way i've been looking at some of your exercises on youtube for double bass, really interesting stuff that i will try out. Cheers!

[Tim Waterson]

I've been playing double bass for about 2 years now. I'm not even going to begin to say that my double bass drumming is excelent but I have definatly noticed an increase in speed and comfortability while playing double bass. Many of the fills I use these days have double bass in them, much like the mike portnoy fills.

Anyway an exsersise that my drum teacher wrote out for me wayback then is this:

20234

It definatly helped me increase my speed in drumming. It was very useful and also helped me become more comfortable on it.

I suggest you start of very slow when doing this exercise. It is very difficult to play anything past six tuplets at even 120 bpm.

I usually can't play everything in this exersise but it definatly helps. Practice it over and over.
I still STAND by my one foot at a time cause if you cant do exactly 1/2 the speed in 1/8 notes with with each foot then you CANT do it in 16ths with both of course it will still take practice and control to put it into to a roll.
IMHO This exercise SHOULD be standard practice for double bass as it s the same thing we do with our hands one of the reason so MANY drumemrs FLOAT with their feet after a certain speed is because they have not learned to transition from triplets into 16ths and so on.....
Tim

[10105547]

I've gotten my double bass pedals for about 7-8 months and now im sitting at about 215-220 max speed
when i first got the pedals i went berzerk about foot technique. i basically searched up and tried out every foot technique available on the web. what i found most effective for myself were ankle motion and swivel technique. i could never get around the flat foot technique but it seems that it works for some people too.
i remember i started practicing at around 170 bpm single foot 8th notes for 2 measures then swapping over to the other foot. after 12 minutes i would switch to 4 measures on each foot and so on. then after a buildup to 8 measures i would put it together and do a workout for 170 bpm 16ths, then gradually build up the bpm maybe every 2 days. the downside to this style of practising is that i get so used to playing fast that mid ranged and slow tempos get very sloppy, so after reaching 200+ bpm speeds ive also worked alot on getting clean hits with low and mid ranged bpm tempos. i then played around with single foot double strokes and did routines where i incorporated them in a consistent double bass pattern. im still having alot of trouble with my left foot double strokes though! anyways i would definetly suggest checking out top metal drummers like tim yeung and G kollias and watch their videos. it helpd alot for me. hope this helps

[stasz]

So I just recently starting getting serious about my double bass. I've actually been practicing leading with the left foot-- playing 1e+a2e+a as LRLRLRLR and so on. I got the idea because I've practiced that same foot pattern before between the hi-hat and bass drum for some of Bonzo's playing. I'm pretty sure that's the pattern bonzo plays on Four Sticks: Sixteenth Notes between the hi-hat (with the foot) and the bass drum but with the left foot leading. I also hope that over time it will help strengthen my left foot because it will have to start all the phrases. Has anyone else tried this approach before?

[yesdog]

What I have been doing to develop my feet is RLRLRLRL for 3 minutes then LRLRLR for 3 minutes at 120 BPM's. Then I do RLRLR LRLRL for 3 minutes at 80 BPM. Then sevens
RLRLRLR LRLRLRL at 70 BPMs. then nines RLRLRLRLR LRLRLRLRL at 60 BPM.
My goal is to be able to play 5s,7s,and 9s at 80 BPM. The five note groupings are comfortable at 80. It starts to get difficult when playing sevens and nines, more notes to put in between beats. I have been doing this for two weeks and has helped a lot.