Is this vintage Ludwig kit legit?

[Skitch]

I was perusing Ebay and saw this and wondered if it is legtimately a Hollywood kit:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130130551244&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=003

Since I had never heard of a "Hollywood kit", I wondered just what would make it a Hollywood kit? The sizes, the finish or a combination of the two?



Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[harryconway]

I'm pretty sure the "Hollywood" name was used to describe the 5 piece layout, typically 22, 12, 13, 16 with snare.

[ludwigvondrumcrazy]

As Harry already stated, the Hollywood, as well as the Big Beat, came "stock" with a 12, 13, 16, 22.
The earliest Hollywood's (early 60's) had twin 12's with the 16 & 22.................

For what it's worth, the Outfit pictured in that Auction Listing looks to date before 1977 but it's hard to tell from those "wonky" pic's..........

If interested you may want to ask the seller if the shells have re-rings or not since right around 1976 was when Ludwig switched over to the Uni-Mold process and the six ply shells that had none (re-rings.) Those six plies are some awesome shells so you couldn't go wrong with either type of shell, 3-ply w/re-rings or 6-ply without..................

LVDC

[Michael G]

Yeah it is, but don't go for it. Look for 60's Ludwigs only, unless on rare occasion a 50's one comes up in great condition. Well that is how I would look, they made good kits in the 70's, but I think the true best are in the 60's with the classy ludwig logo and 3 ply shells.

[Skitch]

So Harry and LVdcrazy,

you are saying that the Hollywood set eventually became the Big Beat set?

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[harryconway]

Ludwig had names for all their "configurations" (as did other companies). So the Classic was the basic 4 piece, the Hollywood or Big Beat a 5 piece. When the name was changed, I'm not sure. I'm relying on memory for this, since I don't have any old catalogs. LVDC could nail down years and stuff better. I see no one bid on the drum set. 76 would make it a blue/olive badge and probably is a 6 ply, since the seller is not saying.

[onemat]

It's not $1800.00 rare. It's worth half of that IMO.

[ludwigvondrumcrazy]

So Harry and LVdcrazy, you are saying that the Hollywood set eventually became the Big Beat set?

Skitch, for all intents & purposes yes. There was a time, from about 1970 or so until 1974-75 that Ludwig carried both Outfits in their Catalogs with the only difference being that the Hollywood came with the older style Stands & the Big Beat with, what were called at the time, Big Beat Stands...................

Here is the Hollywood as shown in the 1974 Catalog: 12, 13, 16 & 22
The next Catalog offered (No.'76) only listed the Big Beat with the Hollywood gone from the scene...............

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/15482309/264729149.jpg

Below is the Big Beat from the same 1974 Catalog: 12, 13, 16 & 22.................

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/15482309/264729203.jpg

Note different style Hi-Hat (Big Beat) & Atlas Snare Stand.
The Hollywood came with the older 1123 Hi-Hat................

LVDC

[ludwigvondrumcrazy]

Since the topic is the Hollywood, let's go back for a little more background information just in case someone runs across an early version and has some doubts due to the two 8 x 12 Tom's.

As shown in the 1961-62 Catalog, right about the time it was introduced..............

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/264776962.jpg

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/264776350.jpg

Note: 14 Floor Tom an Option (see above)

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/264776062.jpg

The next image shows the 1963-64 specifications.
Note, at bottom, that both Mounted Toms must be same size.....................

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/196862800.jpg

This last image is from the 1966-67 Catalog and shows it's "new" configuration, 8 x 12 & 9 x 13 Mounted Toms.
Note that the Supra-Phonic 400 replaced the Jazz Festival as the stock Snare and that it now has the second generation Bass Tom Mount (Tom Post) as well as the 1123 Direct Pull Hi-Hat.....................

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/233976616.jpg

Also note that the earlier version had round knob Tone Controls, replaced, by this time, by the "Baseball Bat" style................

LVDC

[Skitch]

It's not $1800.00 rare. It's worth half of that IMO.

I didn't think that it would be worth that much to anyone yet!



Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[Skitch]

Since the topic is the Hollywood, let's go back for a little more background information just in case someone runs across an early version and has some doubts due to the two 8 x 12 Tom's.

As shown in the 1961-62 Catalog, right about the time it was introduced..............

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/264776962.jpg

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/264776350.jpg

Note: 14 Floor Tom an Option (see above)

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/264776062.jpg

The next image shows the 1963-64 specifications.
Note, at bottom, that both Mounted Toms must be same size.....................

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/196862800.jpg

This last image is from the 1966-67 Catalog and shows it's "new" configuration, 8 x 12 & 9 x 13 Mounted Toms.
Note that the Supra-Phonic 400 replaced the Jazz Festival as the stock Snare and that it now has the second generation Bass Tom Mount as well as the 1123 Direct Pull Hi-Hat.....................

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/233976616.jpg

Also note that the earlier version had round knob Tone Controls, replaced, by this time, by the "Baseball Bat" style................

LVDC

Thanks for the excellent reference material....my question was primarily that the configuration on the tom sizes being legit...which you seemed to have dispelled.

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[drumpu]

Hello,

I just bought a Hollywood kit from 1962 with double 12x8 toms, 16x16 tom and 20x14 kick drum. I think the smaller bass drum was an option even though it is not mentioned in the old advertisements.

Best regards,
Tero

[ludwigvondrumcrazy]

Tero, sweet, very sweet indeed!!! Welcome to DrummerWorld!!!!

You are correct Tero, the Bass could easily have been ordered as a 20.......................

Here's a shot from the early 60's showing a local Group, the Sunliners, with "Pete" behind his Hollywood.
Based on the 10 Lugs per side on the Bass this one is more than likely a 22" but those may be Twin 13's.
Pictures sometimes distort sizes, depending on their angle..................................


http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/255802480.jpg


Most will remember the Sunliners by the Band's next name, Rare Earth................

Here is an example of a Hollywood with a 20" Bass showing yet another local Michigan Group.
Based on the Double Tom Post style & Baseball Bat Tone Controls this one dates a little later, to the mid-60's.
Note straight Double Bass Spurs which I have seen on a few mid-60's 20" Downbeat (Outfit) Bass Drums,
this, in spite of the fact, that most have the style shown above.............................

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/265736705.jpg

LVDC

[pcmckay]

LVDC you are the man! You always have cool old pictures of Ludwigs and great info on old Luddies! It's great to see someone who is really passionate about Ludwigs. This company has so much history, and you look at the old kits and it's no wonder they dominated the industry for such a long time. The vintage Ludwigs are awesome! I will also add that your personal collection is incredible, I'm very jealous! Very cool my Ludwig brother!

[ludwigvondrumcrazy]

Thanks for the kind words PC. It's just what I do now that I'm retired..................

I have a little "back-up" when it comes to finding Kits, or Snares. A close friend, who is my age, "grew up" in his Fathers Drum Shop (founded 1960) that he now owns so he has been a Ludwig Dealer literally his whole life.
He has worked no other place...........

I recondition his "good" trade, or walk-ins, for free and in return he gives me "stuff" at, or below, his cost, as well as first dibs on whatever comes in.
One of those you scratch my back & I'll scratch yours type of things.................

When it comes to the old Catalogs, I collected and scanned them all in as a quick reference when trying to figure out what comes into "The Shop," which also comes in handy here. I also collect old shots of Bands, as well as 1960's - 70's Garage Rock, because that's what it's all about to me.
The Drum Companies back in the day wouldn't have been making Drums in the numbers they did if it wasn't for the Drummers eh???

My wife, bless her heart, has even "gotten" used to the fact that I spend quite a bit of time hanging out at The Shop during the day and clean from midnight to around 6 or seven in the a.m.............................

Thanks again!!
LVDC

[drumpu]

Tero, sweet, very sweet indeed!!! Welcome to DrummerWorld!!!!

You are correct Tero, the Bass could easily have been ordered as a 20.......................

Here's a shot from the early 60's showing a local Group, the Sunliners, with "Pete" behind his Hollywood.
Based on the 10 Lugs per side on the Bass this one is more than likely a 22" but those may be Twin 13's.
Pictures sometimes distort sizes, depending on their angle..................................


http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/255802480.jpg


Most will remember the Sunliners by the Band's next name, Rare Earth................

Here is an example of a Hollywood with a 20" Bass showing yet another local Michigan Group.
Based on the Double Tom Post style & Baseball Bat Tone Controls this one dates a little later, to the mid-60's.
Note straight Double Bass Spurs which I have seen on a few mid-60's 20" Downbeat (Outfit) Bass Drums,
this, in spite of the fact, that most have the style shown above.............................

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/13274424/265736705.jpg

LVDC

Hello LVDC,

thank you for your informative answer and great pictures!

Best regards,
Tero

[swiNg]

when ringo used a ludwig in television, EVEREYBODY wanted them, i guess this was 1963 or something.becouse of this massproduction ludwigs quality never was the same again until 68 when they changed the manufacture. If i was bying a ludwig i would choose pre 63 or the golden era between 68-77something.This was ludwigs true prime. The shells was not that good between 63-68.

[Michael G]

when ringo used a ludwig in television, EVEREYBODY wanted them, i guess this was 1963 or something.becouse of this massproduction ludwigs quality never was the same again until 68 when they changed the manufacture. If i was bying a ludwig i would choose pre 63 or the golden era between 68-77something.This was ludwigs true prime. The shells was not that good between 63-68.

Source? and define "not that good." Do you mean construction wise or sound?

[swiNg]

Source? and define "not that good." Do you mean construction wise or sound?

Well i cannot judge soundwise, havent heard all sets ;) its a matter of opinion right?

But, the Fact is, that after ringos apearring on american national television with his ludwig bop kit, ludwigs orders increased treamendously over night. Ludwig became the largest drum manufactuary in the 60´s with a huge massproduction. that is the reason the quality dicreased. between 64-67 ludwig glued the venner with the wrap OUTSIDE the form that shapes the drum, in 68 they changed to do it when the drum was on the form, just like slingerland and rogers had done all the time, this makes for a much more homogeneous drum (roundess). You can tell it by the bump where the veneer is glued together, the latter (68-) has a much smaller bump than the former.

Hope you could understand my crappy english.

/Tobbe

[Michael G]

Well i cannot judge soundwise, havent heard all sets ;) its a matter of opinion right?

But, the Fact is, that after ringos apearring on american national television with his ludwig bop kit, ludwigs orders increased treamendously over night. Ludwig became the largest drum manufactuary in the 60´s with a huge massproduction. that is the reason the quality dicreased. between 64-67 ludwig glued the venner with the wrap OUTSIDE the form that shapes the drum, in 68 they changed to do it when the drum was on the form, just like slingerland and rogers had done all the time, this makes for a much more homogeneous drum (roundess). You can tell it by the bump where the veneer is glued together, the latter (68-) has a much smaller bump than the former.

Hope you could understand my crappy english.

/Tobbe

Good English, understood well.

It makes sense I just wanted a source to confirm, but meh it is not needed you seem know to what you are talking about.

I'm just all jumpy because after waiting 7 months and 1500 dollars, I want my old Ludwig to be perfect :)

[swiNg]

Good English, understood well.

It makes sense I just wanted a source to confirm, but meh it is not needed you seem know to what you are talking about.

I'm just all jumpy because after waiting 7 months and 1500 dollars, I want my old Ludwig to be perfect :)
Oh, i missed that part, i spend much time on a swedish drumforum, reading a thread about ludwig, and this person kept telling us that ludwig was no good in the 60`s. and i asked if someone with knowledge could tell us the ludwig history, and i got this reply from one of swedens most famous vintage drum restores Niklas K. He has restorded ludwigs, slingerland, rogers and i can totally trust him.

good luck with your luddies, i´m sure it will be a wait worthwhile.!


/Tobbe

[ludwigvondrumcrazy]

just like slingerland and rogers had done all the time, this makes for a much more homogeneous drum (roundess).

Slingerland also used the "Ludwig" method in their past, creating almost a "4th-ply," with Rogers the only one of the three that just used an overlap on the wrap alone throughout the years.............

LVDC

[swiNg]

Slingerland also used the "Ludwig" method in their past, creating almost a "4th-ply," with Rogers the only one of the three that just used an overlap on the wrap alone throughout the years.............

LVDC
very good to know. do you know wich year they switched?

[ludwigvondrumcrazy]

Not off hand swiNg, sorry.................

LVDC