Advice for drummers

[Deathmetalconga]

This was hard to read in parts and it's pretty condescending (using analogies is a sure sign of bad argumentation) but there's a lot of wisdom here nevertheless. Read the original here: http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/general_music/drums_as_the_foundation.html


I present something to you that perhaps you’ve encountered thousands of times and never really noticed it. It happens to 98% of local bands and other sub-par bands alike, and sadly, I don’t think anyone has ever tried to address it head on. A good rock band can be ruined, destroyed, and become a proverbial train-wreck because of one simple and very crucial element in rock music.

The Drums

The song writing can be inspiring, the guitars huge and loud, and the vocals captivating. But suddenly, like war planes bombarding enemy territory, the drummer pulls out an aerial assault of a drum fill, taking any kind of musicality the other musicians have worked hard to create and blowing it to smithereens, leaving the poor refugee listener’s ear drums battered and bruised. We can pin the blame on many things, such as the drummers pride, his off-kilter musical sense, or even plain old fashioned ignorance.
Perhaps, as a song writer, as a guitarist, or even as a drummer, you have recently asked yourself “Something just doesn’t seem right with the way this sounds…”

Perhaps the answer might be found in the article below. Please note that this is an article built upon opinions that I find true and solid. But, please, feel free to leave me comments about how the solo guitar is the foundation of a rock band and Ibanez guitars thru line 6 amps are the only way to go. Your opinions are just as valuable as mine. I mean that…

Here are 3 problems that I see with most drummers and how you can try to fix them.

Lets start with what I think is how the drums should play with others. The drums, first and foremost, are the foundation of any rock band. The drums give us rhythm, the drums provide a back bone, and the drums give the song a driving force and can set the song apart. Let’s use the pyramid analogy once more. We have all seem pyramids in our history books. They start large at the bottom and end up small at the top. Common sense tells us that if it were built upside down, it would topple over and fall. Without that larger and sturdy foundation at the bottom, the whole thing comes toppling over. (Just an aside, this analogy can be used in everything from education to theology.) The drums need to be the larger, sturdier base of any rock band. Never too loud, never too flashy, and always there to support what the other instruments are there to do.


Problem number 1: the drums are too busy and overactive like an ADHD 6 year old boy and have no sense of direction.

Solution: Keep it simple. Bring the rhythm to the down beat, and compliment the song. Think of it this way. You see a beautiful woman walking down the street, and you think to yourself “Wow, I would like to get her number, take her out, and maybe get a little lip action…” Then as she walks closer, you notice that her face is horribly flashy. She has bright red lipstick on, overdone blush, eye shadow that goes all over her face, and a terrible color of eyeliner. Your first thought, if you are anything like me is “wow, what a whore”. Just as makeup compliments a woman, the drums should compliment a song. The same could be said for lead patterns and solo guitars, but that’s neither here nor there.

Drummers that excel in this: JJ Johnson (John Mayer) Jon Bucklew (Copeland). If you are anything like me, you do the following at all rock shows. I walk up to the front of the stage, and depending on whether the band is setting up or already has their gear on stage, I check out the gear. I see what kind of guitars they play, what amps the use to drive them, and what kind of pedals or effects the may use. It is here that I make all sorts of inappropriate, hypocritical and very mean statements in my head, or a close friend, if they are standing next to me. These statements may include “Why would you waste so much money on that solid-state piece of crap?” or “For that money, you could have “x” guitar and still have enough money to buy some decent effects”.

Then, being a drummer with nearly 15 years of experience under my belt, I notice the drum kit. As I said earlier, 98% of the time, local bands and sub-par bands have this kit. A 7 piece pearl export series with z custom cymbals and a double kick pedal. All on a large, shiny drum rack. I almost want to turn away from the show at that point. Why? Because while there may be 20,000 kits out there assembled that way, there are only 5,000 drummers who, in my opinion, who can give that kit justice. It is my burning and driving opinion that if you reduce the kit, you will make the drummer more solid.


Problem number 2: the kit is too big.

Solution: If all drummers could have a tattoo, I would want it to be KISS…not because of the ground breaking rock band, but because it stands for “keep it simple, stupid”. Lets be honest, you aren’t going to really use toms 3-8, and if you did, it probably wouldn’t fit in the song at all. You really only need a crash, a ride, and some hats. A splash is acceptable, but anything more than that is fluff. A pet peeve of mine is the china crash. It’s excellent for a quick cut through in metal, but most drummers I know use it as a ride. I want to rip my ears out at this point.

Drummers who excel in this: Matthew Puttman (lovedrug, Living sacrifice) Weston (eisley) Most jazz drummers. Let’s face it, half of the rock drummers out there only dream that they could play jazz. Jazz music=smaller kit. Rock music=huge kit. Surely you can make the connection there…

I have met many drummers in this great land of ours, and if there was one thing in common that they all have (yes, myself included) is that we are all puffed up with pride. Something about getting behind some wood, metal, and plastic and beating it all to death makes us feel so big, so masculine, and so God-like. I’ve been there too, but what we have to realize is that we are not there to have the spotlights on us. If you have this mindset, please do your guitarist a favor and find another band to play in. I'm sure that most drummers who read this are actually pretty good. There are a lot of great players out there. However, the problem comes when the drummer thinks “I should show off some of my skills in this part of the song. That’s different!” I worked at an office for a brief period of time, and one day I noticed that every day I went in to work, the office was always very clean. The trash had been taken out, the windows had been cleaned, and somehow, there was always the lingering scent of lemon. Every evening, when the employees had left, the janitor came in, when no one was there to see, and would clean up behind the mess we had just made.

Drummers, consider yourselves the janitors of the rock world, going behind the over inflated solo guitarists, the artsy and quiet rhythm guitarists, the eccentric bassists and bleeding heart vocalists and cleaning up whatever mess they bring to the stage. It is your job to clean it, polish it, and make it presentable. Its not a glorious job, so be prepared before you get into it.


Problem number 3: Your head is too big.

Solution: Change your mindset. You aren’t the focus of the band. Who in their right mind (besides other drummers who, arguably, aren’t in their right mind) would want to sit and listen to nothing but drums drums drums? Take the time to realize that you are the solid foundation to any rock band, and though without you, everything falls apart, you still need to have the humility about you to make sure that you do indeed make some good music together.

Drummers that excel in this: Pat Wilson (weezer) Fergal Lawler (The cranberries) and Local Drummers Eric Meeks and Josh Ayres. Some of the best drummers a guitarist could ask to play with.


Random Rants about drummers: Use fills tastefully, please don’t put them at the end of every phrase, or the end of every 4 phrases. Use them when the song calls for it. Your cymbals are made of precious melodic metals. They are not your girlfriend, so don’t bang them whenever you feel like it. Make sure the moment is right. Double kick pedals should really only be used in metal or hardcore. I'm tired of hearing lousy drummers buy double kicks and then put a quick flam at the beginning of every phrase. That sounds really terrible. Please stop. Put your sleeves back on. Sleeveless drummers bother me a little. It goes back to the ego thing. Your muscles don’t look bigger, so go ahead and stop the façade. Please tune your drums carefully. This is all up to your taste, but put some serious thought into it. This makes or breaks your drumming.

I do appreciate your time in reading this article. I hope that you and your band can use it. I have one goal in this whole article writing business…to make music better. I think I have some pretty good ideas that though aren’t original to me, they could be said by me. Remember that drums can make or break the band. Don’t be scared to tell your drummer to take a chill pill, and drummers, don’t get upset if someone tells you to be quiet. Remember what I told you about people in their right mind not wanting to listen to drums all day long? It’s a burden we bare; it’s just that others bear it better than some.
Drummers, you are the foundation, you are the solid rock, and you are the janitors. It’s not a flashy job, but without you and your excellence, rock music would not be where it is today. Keep up the good work.

-Mikey Harper

[nebula821]

I couldn't disagree with this guy more! It was indeed very condescending. I hate to sound negative but....whatever.

[brittc89]

This is purely a meager attmpt satire and does not reflect any actual views of mine, well maybe sometimes, but I dont wanna offend anyone... I love guitar players! Really! Sometimes, but someone cannot love everyone all the time. I found a lot of stuff in that article to be true of some drummers, but maybe we can all agree that at some parts it was a little cutting...


One of the main issues in music today is the pretentious rantings of people who feel that they may dictate to everyone how to play their instrument (by the way, they play drums too so they definitely do know what they are talking about, the problems with the modern foundations of their instrument, and simultaneously provide answers to all the problems of god-awful music through one simple voicing...

The Electric Guitar
The song is powering down a bone crushing chorus, the bass is rumbling, the drums are charging and suddenly the lead guitar player comes in and does what he does best... bitches. He doesnt feel like thats the direction he wants his music to go in, his effects pedal is out of batteries, hes broken a string, the drums are too loud, the bass player is too ugly, and, dammitt, its just too hot for him on stage. We can pin the blame on only one person and he is definitely not too loud or ugly. Have you ever asked youself, why do we sound like something that climbed out my aunt beatrice's goiter and formed a rock band and what can we do to get people to take their fingers out from deep within their own ears but also take out the large forks they had inserted into their own eyeballs rather than endure our music? The simple answer may be well within this article.

Problem One: The guitar player has no sense of time and keeps on starting his guitar intros off twice as fast as you have ever played the song in rehearsal and then slowing them down as if a little boy with ADHD who then is hit by a really really big train...

Solution: Obtain a cattle prod and keep the rhythm by giving a good jab on all four counts before the song starts. If this doesnt work, tell him his sister looks like a prostitute, I dont really think that would really help anything, but its worth a shot.

Problem two: The guitar player seems to think you are a janitor.

Solution: This is an easy one, tell him that if you really are the janitor in this band, maybe you arent the best person to be in it. He would probably be better off with a cowhand on a ranch, possibly even the same guy you borrowed the prod from, or something like that to help him clear away all the bull@$#% that seems to be dribbling out of his mouth. Watch it... ya missed a spot, right under the chin... there ya go.

Problem three: No one likes to sit behind the guitar player at the movie theater because, gosh darnit, they just can seem to get away from that gargatuan mellon that seems to rest so high upon his cute lil' shoulders.

Solution: Unless you are making a good amount of money, get outta this band, relationship, whatever it is! You dont have to play with this guy and youd probably be better off without him in your band... Or you could just also give him a quick pop in the head with a mildly sharp pin and hope that helps to slow the swelling of his ego, but then again, who knows, Im just silly janitor who missed his daily dosage of "chill pills" today.


Once again, this is all just in good fun...

[khanedeliac]

Good link DMC, thanks for the article.

Definitely some wisdom being passed on here, but it IS stuff most of us will have heard or been told before.
I think the willingness to listen to the man's opinion is somewhat undermined by the fact that he does use a condescending tone reminiscent of someone telling a 11 year old schoolboy "You are doing good, you just need to focus more, OK Champ?".

Yes, it is important for us to support the music, to act as the band's engine, driving force or whatever other motoring analogy you wish to use; BUT what about self-expression?

Why should the drummer be restricted to simply keeping time? I agree there are a number of drummers in local/unknown bands who overplay, but I have also seen a staggering amount who UNDERplay.
I would not want to be part of a band where my expression was repressed. I know that Im not just gonna be able to bust out a blur of fills all the time, but I refuse to just sit there and play 2 & 4 for a whole set. (Yes, some songs call for just a 2 & 4 with little/no fills or embellishments; but I would find playing a whole gig like that rather bland)
As with so many things in life, we have to find the fine line and walk it with care; only using fills when it adds to the music and knowing how to manipulate the rhythm of a song/piece/freak out.
Im sure most of us have noticed that lead guitarists dont (generally) apply this much discipline to their playing. Why should they not have to worry about how they are serving the song? I say if you are a drummer who likes to embellish more than the "average" (whatever that is) drummer, then you find a band that wants that from their drummer, or you start a band that will accomodate that style of playing.

His jazz drumming point is rather opaque, seeing as in Jazz, supporting the music often means 'playing-out', which is the whole point he is rallying against. Smaller kit doesnt necessarliy mean 'smaller' playing.

Conclusion : We should not be limited to being human metronomes (unless you are playing country or bluegrass), BUT we should also not be a smorgasbord of tom rolls and bass triplets (unless your band relies on you playing that way).
Self-expression on the drums doesnt HAVE to mean playing out more, sometimes its just the way you articulate yourself, with that open hi hat on the "&" of 4 and junk.

[Big_Philly]

I think he's right, though he did use lots of overstatements. Actually, the entire article was an overstatement... but it helps get the message across.
I do agree that a drum kit should be more than a $3500 metronome, and the drummer should be more than a time keeper. But I'm sure the author of the article agrees with that just as well. A drummer must serve the music, I couldn't agree more, but that does not mean doing nothing but keeping a rhythm. Anyone in his right mind knows that.

[jazzin']

Agree with you there Philly. Although a lot of drummers would be offended by reading this, and rightfully so with that tone of his, but every point he made is one I have seen performed way too much. Well, obviously some points were a bit over the top but I think overall it was a good article (if written in the wrong way) that if it could be read with an open mind and the points taken into consideration could be very useful. Then again, every drummer should already know all this stuff. But, I guess that's his point. Although every drummer probably does know this stuff, not every drummer practices this stuff. Even though they no doubt preach it.

So while it may have been written with a lot more taste I still think it should be taken into consideration, for while most drummers know this stuff there are still far too many that just don't seem to listen and feel the need to smash away and add to the ruin that may have been a good song. Certainly not always the drummers fault though as this guy seems to imply. More often than not the guitarist is as much to blame as anyone else in the band.

This reminds me how often I hear a drummer say he is influenced by Steve Gadd the most. Then you see him play down at the local and he is the exact opposite, hammering away every four bars with a monstrous fill and crashing mightily away on all his cymbals.

Although I also agree with you 100% there as well Brittc89!

Note: please don't take this as a post though that I agree with the fact that a drummer should be doing nothing but playing straight time with no fills or colour in his playing. But, it just seems that too many drummers simply don't know when to stop or what colour and taste is when playing. That's all.

I must admit I laughed a lot at the 7 piece pearl export kit statement. It's so true.

[jonescrusher]

And this was written by a guitarist? Ironic at best, offensive at worst. In my experience guitarists are by far the most difficult members of a band, pretty much for all the reasons listed below. Very lol.

[kung_f00]

This is why I hate working with guitarists.

[c-ditty]

useless article. nuff said

[joeysnare]

there were some decent points in there,but it still has that annoying tone to it,like the guitarest is trying to calm down a rambunctious child.forgive my spelling.

[Mr. Pasquini]

I say play to support the music. I think that in some music it's very important to do lots of fill work and doubles. Don't over play but even more important don't underplay. Nobody will be interested in your playing if you do a 4 on the floor rock beat your whole life. Though it's not important to be the center of attention, it's still important to make your music individual, and enjoyable.

Just don't be an idiot. Every member of a band is equally important, have no illusions.

[NUTHA JASON]

there are a lot of truths there.

i'm playing battle of the bands again this year and also from past years of BOB i can say that i know what this is all about. when the bands are setting up and sound checking i can usually tell if my band is going to win or have to work extra hard to secure the through. the first clue comes from the other drumme's kit and how they set up. this week's round the one dude showed up with factory heads. the next clue is from the guitarist ... does he plug in and start trying out various effects and tuning at top volume? how long does it take him to tune? same with the bass. meanwhile what is the drummer doing? is he practicing fills or chops (ones that he has been working on but is not ready to use yet).

its the guys that set up quietly and quickly, tune digitally in a heartbeat, count off and play 30 seconds of a song and then clear off the stage ... these are the guys you have to start worrying about in the competition.

j

[drumminjohn]

Good link DMC, thanks for the article.

Definitely some wisdom being passed on here, but it IS stuff most of us will have heard or been told before.
I think the willingness to listen to the man's opinion is somewhat undermined by the fact that he does use a condescending tone reminiscent of someone telling a 11 year old schoolboy "You are doing good, you just need to focus more, OK Champ?".

Yes, it is important for us to support the music, to act as the band's engine, driving force or whatever other motoring analogy you wish to use; BUT what about self-expression?

Why should the drummer be restricted to simply keeping time? I agree there are a number of drummers in local/unknown bands who overplay, but I have also seen a staggering amount who UNDERplay.
I would not want to be part of a band where my expression was repressed. I know that Im not just gonna be able to bust out a blur of fills all the time, but I refuse to just sit there and play 2 & 4 for a whole set. (Yes, some songs call for just a 2 & 4 with little/no fills or embellishments; but I would find playing a whole gig like that rather bland)
As with so many things in life, we have to find the fine line and walk it with care; only using fills when it adds to the music and knowing how to manipulate the rhythm of a song/piece/freak out.
Im sure most of us have noticed that lead guitarists dont (generally) apply this much discipline to their playing. Why should they not have to worry about how they are serving the song? I say if you are a drummer who likes to embellish more than the "average" (whatever that is) drummer, then you find a band that wants that from their drummer, or you start a band that will accomodate that style of playing.

His jazz drumming point is rather opaque, seeing as in Jazz, supporting the music often means 'playing-out', which is the whole point he is rallying against. Smaller kit doesnt necessarliy mean 'smaller' playing.

Conclusion : We should not be limited to being human metronomes (unless you are playing country or bluegrass), BUT we should also not be a smorgasbord of tom rolls and bass triplets (unless your band relies on you playing that way).
Self-expression on the drums doesnt HAVE to mean playing out more, sometimes its just the way you articulate yourself, with that open hi hat on the "&" of 4 and junk.


I 100% agree with all of this.

Straight beats get annoying in a song... Imagine some of your favorite songs without some of the cool fills in them... One that comes to mind immediately is Zepp's "Misty Mountain Hop".. Now imagine that song as if Bonham was just grooving. Fun groove, yes, but I personally have to hear that dynamic roll at the end, it makes the song..

I just use my judgment when approaching a drum part for a new song.. I know my judgment might not always be best or what makes the song, but thats when a band member will step in and say, "Can you calm it down a bit in that last part?" or "Can you liven it up in the intro to the solo?" or something like that.

I think if you and your band like the sound of the song, and that was the direction you wanted to take the song, then power to you, you have done your job.

[ledzepjb]

Wow, Nutha, i couldnt agree more with you. I was rencently in a competition, the guys i was against set everything up in a flash, played the intro and the chorus of the song, unplugged and left. While that was happening, my guitarist was trying to do some awful highpiched ''solo''(more of high piched noise) and it sounded like cr@p. We almost one, but the ''solo'' ruined it....

So in conclusion to my little story, i feel that guitarist should also know when and how to hold back.

[Deathmetalconga]

This article supports my belief that most musicians like the concept of a drummer more than the reality of a drummer. As I've said before, most musicians would be happy if the drummer just played with a bass, snare, hihat and ride.

The author of the article says he was a drummer for 15 years. I think he played in bands where the drummer was viewed as a simpleton. If you look at the most successful popular music over time, in most cases, the drummer (and every other musician) played very simply. So there is some truth to what the author is saying.

But there are many popular bands where the drummer has as much creative license and respect as any other musician. These bands appeal mainly to other musicians, or people with more refined tastes. In such a band, the simpleton drummer (and his bandmates) would be outclassed and viewed as barely competent musicians. They know this and they're insecure about it.

[kung_f00]

i feel that guitarist should also know when and how to hold back.

Holding back is not in a guitarist's vocabulary.

I know I've already posted my two cents on this article.. but the more I think about it, the more upset I get with it. The hypocrisy of the article blows my mind -- despite the claim that this writer makes: "Just as makeup compliments a woman, the drums should compliment a song. The same could be said for lead patterns and solo guitars, but that’s neither here nor there", he brushes off the claim that the same could be said for the guitarists by saying that it's 'neither here nor there'. However, one of the main problems within a band, as ledzepjb brought up, is that the guitarist is so ready to tell the drummer to ease up and keep it simple, but the guitarist insists that they have some sort of "mindblowing solo". In most cases, these mindblowing solos are ridden with mistakes and often detract from the song.

The writer of this article also contends: "Solution: Change your mindset. You aren’t the focus of the band. Who in their right mind (besides other drummers who, arguably, aren’t in their right mind) would want to sit and listen to nothing but drums drums drums? Take the time to realize that you are the solid foundation to any rock band, and though without you, everything falls apart, you still need to have the humility about you to make sure that you do indeed make some good music together." Of course, this is chock-full of even more hypocrisy, as guitarists have no right to be discussing issues of humility. And there should be no focal member in a good band. A good band works cohesively, as a musical unit rather than a rhythm section that syncs with eachother underlying a cocky guitarist who wants to be the next Axl Rose. And while this author believes that in his close-minded mindset that no one wants to listen to just drums alone (drum corps/line comes to mind in this instance), not every person in the audience is there to hear the guitarist 'shred'. Again, the band should be balanced. And in most cases, the imbalance is because of the guitarist, not because of the drummer. After all, the drummer is supposed to work with the bassist to provide a solid rhythm.

I'll leave my rant at this, because I've just about had it with this guy's First Amendment rights. Simply put, if you want the drummer to keep it simple, hold yourself to your own standards, and keep to power chords. Nobody wants to hear arrhythmic, effects-ridden wailing for minutes on end.

[fourstringdrums]

Thanks for posting that. It shows the ignorance that can plague musicians of every instrument, not just guitarists.

Yes, the drums can be the blame in a band not being on top of its game as much as it could be. In fact because WE'RE the rhythm, the timekepper, the foundation, we CAN sink a band faster than an Iceberg hitting the Titanic. But, any member of the band can be a blame: A singer who can't sing on key, or who would rather show off and be the center of attention instead part of the band. A guitarist who suffers from the same problems as the singer in regards to attention, but also may have the problem of insisting on being the loudest member of the band, and lets not forget untasteful guitar solos. The bass player, who holds down the bottom as much as the drummer could have horrible sense of time etc..

I think this article should have been more on educating the guitarist on what their role in the band is and should be, even if the majority of them reading it think that they're doing their job just fine. It could have possibly involved EVERY member of the band, stating some common problems with each instrument and how to resolve them. But instead it chose to be a blame piece.

[Disco Stu]

Who in their right mind (besides other drummers who, arguably, aren’t in their right mind) would want to sit and listen to nothing but drums drums drums?
This guy's obviously never been to a Kodo (http://www.kodo.or.jp/frame.html) concert. They regularly tour all over the world and I'm sure have entertained far more audiences than the author of this opinion piece.

[zambizzi]

This sort of fits w/ the thread I started recently called "The Drummer's Place In the Band"...

Like any music, genre, style, instrument, etc. - it's a matter of taste. Some of my favorite bands have drummers who are often called "over-players"....and some of my other favorites are *definite* under-players. I listen to DMB, Tool, Rush...but I also listen to bands like Weezer, The White Stripes, etc. Yes, even as a drummer, I can appreciate Meg White...even if I don't think she's a great drummer :)

The point is; your band can sound incredible if you over-play...and it can sound incredible if you under-play...because it's a matter of playing for the music and doing something that fits. A thunderous 8-tom fill sounds great in a Rush tune...but it wouldn't sound right in a White Stripes tune...for example.

Personally...I like to do both. When I practice w/ my band I like to attempt several different styles. Sometimes I'll play a straight shuffle w/ some simple fills here-and-there....sometimes I'll use the whole kit...if it fits.

I think some musicians are overly sensitive to what their band-mates are doing. There seems to be a paradigm amongst a lot of non-drummer musicians that the drummer is a machine...and should be seen and not heard. The audience is probably not as sensitive to this and appreciate some creativity.

In my personal opinion...the backbeat+guitar riff+simple vocal has been so insanely overdone in popular music....it's refreshing to hear bands who do something different...especially in rock music.

[Thin Spirits]

From article: "Drummers, consider yourselves the janitors of the rock world"

I hate the author.

From article: "Put your sleeves back on. Sleeveless drummers bother me a little. It goes back to the ego thing. Your muscles don’t look bigger, so go ahead and stop the façade."

Isn't this article about MUSIC? What the drummer looks like or is wearing doesn't matter at all.
Also, withour sleeves, your muscles DO look bigger. Sleeves hide away your arms, and if you have big, strong arms, why would you hide them away?


Nearly everything that was said in this article made me angry. It's extremely sad that guitarists think this way about drummers.

[caprisun3484]

And this was written by a guitarist? Ironic at best, offensive at worst. In my experience guitarists are by far the most difficult members of a band, pretty much for all the reasons listed below. Very lol.

ooooohhh the irony
hahaha

[Fur drummer]

The author of the article wouldn't like these great drummers...

Neil Peart- Plays a large kit and does as many fills as he can.Would be considered someone who overplays by the writer of that article.
Carl Palmer- another large kit player.
Keith Moon- Played a large kit and treated every song like it was a drum solo.
Mike Portnoy- Plays a huge kit and would be considered someone who overplays.
Billy Cobham- Jazz/fusion drummer that plays a huge kit.

Just to name a few.

[drumminjohn]

The author of the article wouldn't like these great drummers...

Neil Peart- Plays a large kit and does as many fills as he can.Would be considered someone who overplays by the writer of that article.
Carl Palmer- another large kit player.
Keith Moon- Played a large kit and treated every song like it was a drum solo.
Mike Portnoy- Plays a huge kit and would be considered someone who overplays.
Billy Cobham- Jazz/fusion drummer that plays a huge kit.

Just to name a few.

Hahah yeah the author would despise Keith Moon..

[fijjibo]

Well, Im sure the Authors Intentions are good, but what hes saying comes off very arrogant.

Mind you, there is some truth in what he says.

[Deathmetalconga]

Well, Im sure the Authors Intentions are good, but what hes saying comes off very arrogant.

Mind you, there is some truth in what he says.

I do agree. His tone is arrogant and condescending, but the basic truth is that other musicians want drummers to play more simply and plainly. For the most part, that is true. Of course, I would also like the other musicians I play with, to play more plainly. It would be cool for a drummer to turn that column on its head.

[zambizzi]

I do agree. His tone is arrogant and condescending, but the basic truth is that other musicians want drummers to play more simply and plainly. For the most part, that is true. Of course, I would also like the other musicians I play with, to play more plainly. It would be cool for a drummer to turn that column on its head.

Not all of them...I haven't met a guitar player yet who has complained about what I do. However, I've now met two bass players who want the drums to be as stupid-simple as can be...including the guy I'm playing w/ currently.

I don't want other musicians to dumb down what they're playing either...if it's complex and rhythmically challenging...great!....just so long as it fits and sounds good.

[Jeff Almeyda]

He thinks 5,000 out of 20,000 drummers with large kits would do well?

I have to say that 25% (5,000 out of 20,000) isn't a bad number. Personally, I find I like much less than 25% of the unsigned bands/musicians that I see.

[MissWorld1952]

Anyone read the comments posted on the bottom of the original article at ultimateguitar.com?

[Legacyrik]

If you look at the most successful popular music over time, in most cases, the drummer (and every other musician) played very simply. So there is some truth to what the author is saying.


Yes, some POPULAR bands played some real simple stuff..... If popular is what you are after have at it. However the bands people seem to remember, draw inspiration from, don't seem to be as concerned with popularity.

[neilpscuz]

"There is no lick that is more important then the groove". I am not sure who said it it,but it rings so true. Music is a very personal undertaking, it conveys our emotions, our inner-self. If you can convey them on a 3pc and 2 cyms great. Terry Bozzio has a lot more to say using many different timbres of speech. It's all very personal and there is alot of truth in all the opinions expressed. You have to find what is right for you and the group you play with. There is no right and wrong set rule, there is only what you do with it, IMHOP.

[drumminjohn]

Anyone read the comments posted on the bottom of the original article at ultimateguitar.com?

Yeah some of those made me as mad as the article did..

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Yes, some POPULAR bands played some real simple stuff..... If popular is what you are after have at it. However the bands people seem to remember, draw inspiration from, don't seem to be as concerned with popularity.

The Beatles.
The Rolling Stones.
Led Zeppelin
Pink Floyd
The Doors
Nirvana
And yes... even Radiohead.

Simple music. Popular music. Good music.

[Deathmetalconga]

The Beatles.
The Rolling Stones.
Led Zeppelin
Pink Floyd
The Doors
Nirvana
And yes... even Radiohead.

Simple music. Popular music. Good music.

I agree. Like it or not, the music that has endured the longest among the most people and remains best-selling - regardless of genre - is the simplest music. Of those bands you list above, only Bonham played in an extraordinarly creative and technically difficult way. The rest of the bands, drummers and other musicians, played basic music. The songwriting is what has given the songs endurance. Only in a few notable cases does complex, techinically difficult music capture the attention of so much of the public over decades, long after its creators have passed.

[fourstringdrums]

Only in a few notable cases does complex, techinically difficult music capture the attention of so much of the public over decades, long after its creators have passed.

Like Rush for instance...

[Deathmetalconga]

Like Rush for instance...

It wouldn't surprise me if one of the Beatles less-popular albums sold more than all of Rush's and Dream Theater's put together. There will always be a huge market for more technically demanding music. But if you're talking about the music that captures and holds the popular consciousness for decades, so far it's the simple stuff.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I agree. Like it or not, the music that has endured the longest among the most people and remains best-selling - regardless of genre - is the simplest music. Of those bands you list above, only Bonham played in an extraordinarly creative and technically difficult way. The rest of the bands, drummers and other musicians, played basic music. The songwriting is what has given the songs endurance. Only in a few notable cases does complex, techinically difficult music capture the attention of so much of the public over decades, long after its creators have passed.

I'm usually of the opinion (with a few notable exceptions, King Crimson!) that the best songs can be stripped back to just an acoustic guitar and a singer and still work. Take any one of these artists, take almost any song and you'll find this to be true. A great example is Radiohead's Idioteque. I play it on just an acoustic guitar and vocals and it sounds great (obviously, I don't sing it or play it well, but it sounds great when other people do!). That song is electronica. Yet it still works acoustically.

Pink Floyd's entire back catalogue up until A Momentary Lapse all sounds great on acoustic guitar, even songs like 'Interstellar Overdrive' right up until 'Southampton Docks' and 'Dogs'. The same is true of all the bands I just listed. The songs don't even need drums! Half the art of a drummer is knowing when NOT to play just as much as actually when you play.

[zambizzi]

Sure...let's apply that logic elsewhere. You can strip a symphony orchestra down to the cellist and you'll still recognize what piece is being played.

Does it sound *as* good w/ all of the layers stripped away?

Not everyone wants to express their art in the most simple way...record sale comparisons aside. I'd be happy to have Neil Peart's success, skills, and worldwide recognition as a legendary drummer. I wouldn't sit back and think "yeah...but man...The Beatles sold MORE albums than we did!"

[jazzin']

I'm usually of the opinion (with a few notable exceptions, King Crimson!) that the best songs can be stripped back to just an acoustic guitar and a singer and still work. Take any one of these artists, take almost any song and you'll find this to be true. A great example is Radiohead's Idioteque. I play it on just an acoustic guitar and vocals and it sounds great (obviously, I don't sing it or play it well, but it sounds great when other people do!). That song is electronica. Yet it still works acoustically.

Pink Floyd's entire back catalogue up until A Momentary Lapse all sounds great on acoustic guitar, even songs like 'Interstellar Overdrive' right up until 'Southampton Docks' and 'Dogs'. The same is true of all the bands I just listed. The songs don't even need drums! Half the art of a drummer is knowing when NOT to play just as much as actually when you play.

Indeed. All popular music (with a few exceptions) is very simple music. The melody is what captures people's attention and what keeps it. Of course drummer's are going to like fills and think they make a part of a song great. It's a cool fill, of course it makes that part good. Most listeners aren't drummers though and they really don't care if drums are there or not. If it provides a good backbeat and makes the song groove then the drummer has done his/her job very well, fills or no fills.

Using the orchestra analogy doesn't really work I think. An orchestra is made up of many, many small parts all played to create a whole. It is also much more intricate in terms of dynamics, texture, tone etc etc. It is also, like other more 'complex' music, not nearly as popular as mainstream music. If it did have a drummer in it anyway, it would be an exact written part which cannot be diverted from, probably just keeping simple time in parts to add dramatic effect, which is what a lot of guys that don't like the guitarists article don't approve of. Orchestral music is not creative music in terms of the players. It was very creative from the writers point but generally cannot be changed.

[rendezvous_drummer]

Some truths in there indeed, but some of the stuff he stated is just.....dumb.

Oh...and Radiohead is amazing...Idioteque=genious.

[Mr. Pasquini]

I'm usually of the opinion (with a few notable exceptions, King Crimson!) that the best songs can be stripped back to just an acoustic guitar and a singer and still work. Take any one of these artists, take almost any song and you'll find this to be true. A great example is Radiohead's Idioteque. I play it on just an acoustic guitar and vocals and it sounds great (obviously, I don't sing it or play it well, but it sounds great when other people do!). That song is electronica. Yet it still works acoustically.

Pink Floyd's entire back catalogue up until A Momentary Lapse all sounds great on acoustic guitar, even songs like 'Interstellar Overdrive' right up until 'Southampton Docks' and 'Dogs'. The same is true of all the bands I just listed. The songs don't even need drums! Half the art of a drummer is knowing when NOT to play just as much as actually when you play.

I hate to argue with you because I know I'll be torn apart BUT...
So much of music are the overplayed parts. Sure something may sound good or alright but what makes a lot of music are technical parts, rough parts, drums blasting, bass working, guitar smacking action.

Popular music is not all music. It's what a lot of people like but it's not all music, I wish people would quit using Beatles analogies. Ringo barely played, big whoop. It worked for his music. It's only by coincidence and the dollars of millions of girls who soak themselves in love songs that he became successful.

It almost sounds like you're saying that technical music is less than popular music because it doesn't sell as well. I'm sure you don't mean it but I think it's really important to express yourself, even if it is considered "over playing".

I'll make more sense of this later, Seattle is killing me.

[Jeff Almeyda]

It wouldn't surprise me if one of the Beatles less-popular albums sold more than all of Rush's and Dream Theater's put together. There will always be a huge market for more technically demanding music. But if you're talking about the music that captures and holds the popular consciousness for decades, so far it's the simple stuff.

PLEASE don't lump Rush in with Dream Theater. Dream Theater can't fill my backyard here in America while Rush has played arenas here for over 30 years.

BTW, Rush has sold over 40 MILLION albums worldwide.

If we are speaking of POP music then the simple stuff is what holds our consciousness for decades but the true classics by Bach, Mozart, Ludwig Van et al are NOT simple and they have held our attention for centuries.

Also, Why is simplicity SO revered in music yet not necessarily so in the other art forms? Is "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" worse than "The Red Pony" because it's more complex? Is The art work of Norman Rockwell better than that of Picasso because it's more "accessible"? Obviously, no.

So why in music? Is it just a cultural thing? There are many cultures whose native music is quite complex so maybe it's just a "western" thing. I'm not sure.

[jazzin']

Popular music is not all music. It's what a lot of people like but it's not all music, I wish people would quit using Beatles analogies. Ringo barely played, big whoop. It worked for his music. It's only by coincidence and the dollars of millions of girls who soak themselves in love songs that he became successful.




I think that's the entire point he's trying to make though. We all know Ringo wasn't a great player but what he did do was perfect for the music. It was simple parts played to simple pop songs. He didn't need to do any more. It was good music. That's why he was successful.

[jazzin']

PLEASE don't lump Rush in with Dream Theater. Dream Theater can't fill my backyard here in America while Rush has played arenas here for over 30 years.

BTW, Rush has sold over 40 MILLION albums worldwide.

If we are speaking of POP music then the simple stuff is what holds our consciousness for decades but the true classics by Bach, Mozart, Ludwig Van et al are NOT simple and they have held our attention for centuries.

Also, Why is simplicity SO revered in music yet not necessarily so in the other art forms? Is "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" worse than "The Red Pony" because it's more complex? Is The art work of Norman Rockwell better than that of Picasso because it's more "accessible"? Obviously, no.

So why in music? Is it just a cultural thing? There are many cultures whose native music is quite complex so maybe it's just a "western" thing. I'm not sure.

Great points. I wonder whether it has to do with when someone wants to be thought of as an individual/eccentric/intellectual he will try and make something that will be difficult for the masses to accept? It is, or can be, distinctly overboard in terms of it's complexity or intellectual value.

Of course a lot of art can be complex or simplistic but still very much revered, but I feel as though you can often figure out it's intention and if it was written/painted/played simply as an exercise in intellectual ingenuity to ostracize, then it will often be viewed as pointless or false. I think you can tell if it is an honest expression of an artist's mind whether it be particularly simple or complex.

I would also venture to say that maybe a small part of the simplicity in music can be revered because so many people don't want to think anymore. Everyone is so bombarded with life in general and having to make stressful daily choices at work, manage kids and finances, go through puberty, adolescence and all the everyday 21st century rubbish that when they want to hear a song they want it to be simple with an easy to catch hook or melody (no doubt played also by a hot blonde chick or buff guy to have an easy image in their mind as well) to hum or bop along to. Could be a small part of it. Or it may not.

[jonescrusher]

Popular music is not all music. It's what a lot of people like but it's not all music, I wish people would quit using Beatles analogies. Ringo barely played, big whoop. It worked for his music. It's only by coincidence and the dollars of millions of girls who soak themselves in love songs that he became successful.



I think there's a little bit more to it than that.

You're missing the point suggesting that Beatles were successful on the back of love songs; it's that their back catalogue has such depth and is so good that their music endures. Great songwriting will always be remembered over technically involved 'masterpieces', and usually, classic songwriting calls upon straight-ahead no frills drumming.

[gusty]

Who cares if a drum part is complex or simple? Its up to the drummer. And more importantly its up to the style of music. Last night I fell asleep to the beatles and dream theater. MP is an "overplaying" drummer, but i love it. ringo is an "underplaying" drummer, but i love it. keep in mind that the beatles and ringo were one of MP's biggest influences as a kid, and he has a beatles tribute band, along with other side projects. I like both. I'm learning erotomania with my drum teacher and its great fun to play and learn, and a few days ago i learnt an inward paradiddle groove.

Point is, who cares? Why should you care? This is like big kits v small kits. Dont bash either. Let the individual drummer decide what they want to do, and what the music calls for.

[Mr. Pasquini]

You're missing the point suggesting that Beatles were successful on the back of love songs; it's that their back catalogue has such depth and is so good that their music endures. Great songwriting will always be remembered over technically involved 'masterpieces', and usually, classic songwriting calls upon straight-ahead no frills drumming.

While I agree about classic songwriting my point is that is not all music. Technically involved 'masterpieces' are just as much music as any other type. Sure, 9x as many people know about the Beatles as know about Dream Theater; that's not in question, but I'm annoyed that it's seemingly unacceptable for someone to do really technical drumming. 4 on the floor is popular but it's not like it's all that ever became popular.

You're saying that it's remembered, but technical music will never be forgotten by musicians. If you're playing to play what's popular than do that, if you're trying to be original do that. It's just playing to the music. Don't go overboard I think is what's important.

[Deathmetalconga]

I'm usually of the opinion (with a few notable exceptions, King Crimson!) that the best songs can be stripped back to just an acoustic guitar and a singer and still work. Take any one of these artists, take almost any song and you'll find this to be true. A great example is Radiohead's Idioteque. I play it on just an acoustic guitar and vocals and it sounds great (obviously, I don't sing it or play it well, but it sounds great when other people do!). That song is electronica. Yet it still works acoustically.

Pink Floyd's entire back catalogue up until A Momentary Lapse all sounds great on acoustic guitar, even songs like 'Interstellar Overdrive' right up until 'Southampton Docks' and 'Dogs'. The same is true of all the bands I just listed. The songs don't even need drums! Half the art of a drummer is knowing when NOT to play just as much as actually when you play.

That is a good point and a good exercise. Even a song meant to be rendered by a classical symphony orchestra can be boiled down to one instrument, such as a piano or guitar. Any good song has a good hook. The ultimate test is, can the average person hum or whistle the hook to themselves, and would they want to?

Simple playing is something all musicians should value, even if a jerk like the author of that piece supports it..

[Grungydan]

Ok. Allow me to sum up that entire article, leaving out the condescension and arrogance (which the writer accuses the reader of possessing...how quaint).

"Learn to play in the pocket, and to compliment, rather than compete with, your fellow musicians."

[latzanimal]

Kenny Aronoff said all of this about 20 years ago only he said it from telling his humbling experiences. He had a video that summed up his clinics... "Laying it Down" I think it was called. This was when he was BECOMING a first call studio drummer. Oh yeah, this is AFTER he came out and played a jaw-dropping, mind blowing jazz solo that not only got a standing "O", it left most of the audience speechless. One last thing, he said all of this from the same ground I was standing on, not from high on a mountain........

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Mr. Pasquini, don't be afraid of me ripping you apart, I'm a nice guy deep down inside beyond the layers of patina and embitterment.

In modern music, there is a desire for the individuals within that music to really show off. I will admit that I listen to and enjoy technically complicated music, I've got Tool on right now and I'll probably be listening to Genesis, Yes and King Crimson before the day is out. Now, I absolutely ADORE King Crimson, and in my opinion, Robert Fripp outstrips all other guitarists in regards to technique and note selection. I also respect that he knows (or at least, used to know) when NOT to play. Throw Bill Bruford in the mix and you've got a great band with technically demanding parts; but also a sensibility to be able to hum melodies; well at least I do, atonal and angular they are! However, often the melodies are complex and do not constitute 'hooks'.

But King Crimson are NEVER going to be as popular as, say, Led Zeppelin. Whilst there are occasional bands that have relatively complex parts, say Rush, they also contrain very simple melodies. 'La Villa Strangiato' (or however it's spelt) actually has a very, very simple hook. As does 'YYZ'. You can literally play the first few notes of the song and people know EXACTLY what it is. This is true of most of Rush's more popular output. I'm no Rush fan, by the way, but whatever floats your boat. In that sense, you can argue that Rush is actually fairly simple music at the core, with some pyrotechnics and flashy bits thrown over the top. Why else would an entire crowd of fans be able to sing along to the melody of YYZ? Try getting a crowd of people to sing along to 'Fracture' by King Crimson. It's not going to happen. Unless it's me.

So where did this desire to show off come from?

Well, in the car, I mainly listen to BBC Radio 3, which is basically a classical station, with jazz thrown in and occasionally a lot of World music and ethnic styles thrown in as well. I listen to a LOT of different styles of music and I tend to find that when an instrument lacks dynamic expression, a desire to show off becomes evident. Take harpsichord music for instance, there is little sustain and no control over dynamics; most harpsichord music I've heard focuses on the speed of the player rather than the poignant phrasing of a few chords. Arguably, the drums are the same. Whilst they can be a VERY dynamic instrument, most drummers tend to ignore this and focus on what they 'can' play as opposed to 'how' they play it. The guitar as well, can lack dynamics if a player isn't very careful. When playing fast, invariably all the notes are quiet and as such, the lack of dynamics is made up for with the speed or technical virtuosity of the player. Now, I'm not saying this is always the case, but generally it's a trend I've noticed. Perhaps if people took a listen to what they were playing more, we wouldn't have a range of bands whose music consists of musical masturbation.

I'm not saying 'technical' music is any less valid than simple music, merely that simple music tends to be those songs that are remembered, and that even Rush's music is generally simple at the core.

[Tool Guy]

I don’t think this post really needs another opinion, but I guess I’ll add mine anyway! LOL

I think there is too much analyzing going on here with the simple vs. complex music discussion. I think you need to just look at people in general to understand why a lot of simple music is more popular that complex music. At the risk of sounding very pessimistic, I think that most people don’t really care how complex music is, or have an appreciation for the work that goes into it. Many people out there go to work, do a job that almost anybody could be trained to do in a relatively short period of time, and then go home and watch T.V. until it’s time to go to bed. Many have never mastered a trade, learned to play an instrument, or learned to do anything that takes years or a lifetime to master. They don’t look at complex music the way we, as musicians look at it. What most people are looking for is what I call “sing-along” songs……that is “music” that they can turn on and they can relate to the lyrics, or simply sing along with the song. This is why country music is so popular, in my opinion. Not to put down any country musicians or country music, but it’s the lyrics that hook most people, and the music is just in the background for them. They can relate a cheating girlfriend/boyfriend, or a hard day at work, or any of that stuff that country lyrics are made up of.

As for music, when most people listen to it they just hear some drums, and not a complex fill that blows them away. They are not amazed at the coordination required to play an awesome groove that has four limbs doing four different things. They just hear a guitar playing, and aren’t even phased by the intricate fret board work that goes into a song’s guitar solo section.

We, on the other hand, are a minority in that we appreciate all of this, and we listen to music for the music. We love and appreciate the music for the talent required to play it. Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that simple music is bad, or that only simple-minded people listen to it. There are plenty of very simple songs that I love, because I love the sound or feel of the song. I’m just saying that complex music is often beyond what many people can relate to and appreciate.

I think most things in life are this way. One of my other hobbies is building motorcycles. Like drumming, I am impressed with the true craftsman who build bikes and cars from scratch just as I am impressed with master drummers. I was inspired to learn how to shape metal, TIG weld, run a lathe, a mill, and educate myself in the history and correct way to do many of these skills. I have a lot of respect for true craftsmanship and talent. To me, a bike built completely by hand equates to complex music….the are few who really appreciate and understand what it takes to have the skills to do it. Then on the other hand, there are the store-bought “custom” bikes like Big Dogs, Titans, etc that to me kind of equate to the simple music. There are many more of them out there than there are TRUE custom bikes, and people love them. To me they are just cookie-cutter bikes with flashy paint jobs, but that’s what most people relate to. They don’t care that the sheetmetal was stamped out by a machine in seconds, and not made by hand over the course of weeks. They don’t care that most of the components are store-bought and just bolted on, rather than fabricated individually, engineered one at a time and made just for that one bike. The end result is the same to most people……a motorcycle. Just as in music, the end result is just a song to them, and they like the one’s that they can relate to.

With all this being said, it is not such a surprise that complex music, for the most part, is not as popular as simple music. The people who have a a finer taste in anything, be it music, cars, wine, art, etc. are very much the minority compared to the general public.

There are certainly other things that affect music’s popularity. For the Beatles, I think you have to look at when the music came out, how it compared to existing music, and the political climate of the world at the time. It wasn’t just about the music itself.

Just my humble opinion!

[JCM]

I don’t think this post really needs another opinion, but I guess I’ll add mine anyway! LOL

I think there is too much analyzing going on here with the simple vs. complex music discussion. I think you need to just look at people in general to understand why a lot of simple music is more popular that complex music. At the risk of sounding very pessimistic, I think that most people don’t really care how complex music is, or have an appreciation for the work that goes into it. Many people out there go to work, do a job that almost anybody could be trained to do in a relatively short period of time, and then go home and watch T.V. until it’s time to go to bed. Many have never mastered a trade, learned to play an instrument, or learned to do anything that takes years or a lifetime to master. They don’t look at complex music the way we, as musicians look at it. What most people are looking for is what I call “sing-along” songs……that is “music” that they can turn on and they can relate to the lyrics, or simply sing along with the song. This is why country music is so popular, in my opinion. Not to put down any country musicians or country music, but it’s the lyrics that hook most people, and the music is just in the background for them. They can relate a cheating girlfriend/boyfriend, or a hard day at work, or any of that stuff that country lyrics are made up of.

As for music, when most people listen to it they just hear some drums, and not a complex fill that blows them away. They are not amazed at the coordination required to play an awesome groove that has four limbs doing four different things. They just hear a guitar playing, and aren’t even phased by the intricate fret board work that goes into a song’s guitar solo section.

We, on the other hand, are a minority in that we appreciate all of this, and we listen to music for the music. We love and appreciate the music for the talent required to play it. Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that simple music is bad, or that only simple-minded people listen to it. There are plenty of very simple songs that I love, because I love the sound or feel of the song. I’m just saying that complex music is often beyond what many people can relate to and appreciate.

I think most things in life are this way. One of my other hobbies is building motorcycles. Like drumming, I am impressed with the true craftsman who build bikes and cars from scratch just as I am impressed with master drummers. I was inspired to learn how to shape metal, TIG weld, run a lathe, a mill, and educate myself in the history and correct way to do many of these skills. I have a lot of respect for true craftsmanship and talent. To me, a bike built completely by hand equates to complex music….the are few who really appreciate and understand what it takes to have the skills to do it. Then on the other hand, there are the store-bought “custom” bikes like Big Dogs, Titans, etc that to me kind of equate to the simple music. There are many more of them out there than there are TRUE custom bikes, and people love them. To me they are just cookie-cutter bikes with flashy paint jobs, but that’s what most people relate to. They don’t care that the sheetmetal was stamped out by a machine in seconds, and not made by hand over the course of weeks. They don’t care that most of the components are store-bought and just bolted on, rather than fabricated individually, engineered one at a time and made just for that one bike. The end result is the same to most people……a motorcycle. Just as in music, the end result is just a song to them, and they like the one’s that they can relate to.

With all this being said, it is not such a surprise that simple music, for the most part, is not as popular as complex music. The people who have a a finer taste in anything, be it music, cars, wine, art, etc. are very much the minority compared to the general public.

There are certainly other things that affect music’s popularity. For the Beatles, I think you have to look at when the music came out, how it compared to existing music, and the political climate of the world at the time. It wasn’t just about the music itself, in my opinion.

Just my humble opinion!

Could not have said it better myself!

[drumbuddy105133]

did you guys read some of the posts at the bottom of the page at the link? jeez, some of the posts act like the ONLY THING that makes a band terrible is the drummer. One of the posts said that they throw things at their drummer to keep him in line, and threaten him when he hit's his china cymbal :( Any member of the band can screw it up, and in my experience, its the guitar player. Even though he's my best friend, no sense of time, even when I'm playing.

[PeartWeckler]

I see time as more of a participation and groove thing. Keeping time is not just hitting things on tempo. It's dynamics, and not so much for every hit you make, but more the volume and energy you produce from measure to phrase. And that energy has to lift the other band mates to "participate" with the groove you are generating.

And all of this depends on the type of music your playing, and yes there are styles that are distinct out there - like jazz, country, rock, etc - that demand players know and play within the boundaries of. There definitely are places where the guitarist's version of a drummer is needed. Slow waltzes come to mind, among others.

Seriously, I think the drums as foundation paradime is a bit overused. Again, I think it depends on the style of music that's being played. Jazz definitely requires everyone to play with improvisation as well as together in time/groove.

Steph
P.S. I can't count the number of times a guitarist has asked me to keep the tempo, and all I did was add some volume with the cymbals and everyone felt the groove come together.

[Skitch]

This was hard to read in parts and it's pretty condescending (using analogies is a sure sign of bad argumentation) but there's a lot of wisdom here nevertheless. Read the original here: http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/general_music/drums_as_the_foundation.html


I present something to you that perhaps you’ve encountered thousands of times and never really noticed it. It happens to 98% of local bands and other sub-par bands alike, and sadly, I don’t think anyone has ever tried to address it head on. A good rock band can be ruined, destroyed, and become a proverbial train-wreck because of one simple and very crucial element in rock music.

The Drums

The song writing can be inspiring, the guitars huge and loud, and the vocals captivating. But suddenly, like war planes bombarding enemy territory, the drummer pulls out an aerial assault of a drum fill, taking any kind of musicality the other musicians have worked hard to create and blowing it to smithereens, leaving the poor refugee listener’s ear drums battered and bruised. We can pin the blame on many things, such as the drummers pride, his off-kilter musical sense, or even plain old fashioned ignorance.
Perhaps, as a song writer, as a guitarist, or even as a drummer, you have recently asked yourself “Something just doesn’t seem right with the way this sounds…”

Perhaps the answer might be found in the article below. Please note that this is an article built upon opinions that I find true and solid. But, please, feel free to leave me comments about how the solo guitar is the foundation of a rock band and Ibanez guitars thru line 6 amps are the only way to go. Your opinions are just as valuable as mine. I mean that…

Here are 3 problems that I see with most drummers and how you can try to fix them.

Lets start with what I think is how the drums should play with others. The drums, first and foremost, are the foundation of any rock band. The drums give us rhythm, the drums provide a back bone, and the drums give the song a driving force and can set the song apart. Let’s use the pyramid analogy once more. We have all seem pyramids in our history books. They start large at the bottom and end up small at the top. Common sense tells us that if it were built upside down, it would topple over and fall. Without that larger and sturdy foundation at the bottom, the whole thing comes toppling over. (Just an aside, this analogy can be used in everything from education to theology.) The drums need to be the larger, sturdier base of any rock band. Never too loud, never too flashy, and always there to support what the other instruments are there to do.


Problem number 1: the drums are too busy and overactive like an ADHD 6 year old boy and have no sense of direction.

Solution: Keep it simple. Bring the rhythm to the down beat, and compliment the song. Think of it this way. You see a beautiful woman walking down the street, and you think to yourself “Wow, I would like to get her number, take her out, and maybe get a little lip action…” Then as she walks closer, you notice that her face is horribly flashy. She has bright red lipstick on, overdone blush, eye shadow that goes all over her face, and a terrible color of eyeliner. Your first thought, if you are anything like me is “wow, what a whore”. Just as makeup compliments a woman, the drums should compliment a song. The same could be said for lead patterns and solo guitars, but that’s neither here nor there.

Drummers that excel in this: JJ Johnson (John Mayer) Jon Bucklew (Copeland). If you are anything like me, you do the following at all rock shows. I walk up to the front of the stage, and depending on whether the band is setting up or already has their gear on stage, I check out the gear. I see what kind of guitars they play, what amps the use to drive them, and what kind of pedals or effects the may use. It is here that I make all sorts of inappropriate, hypocritical and very mean statements in my head, or a close friend, if they are standing next to me. These statements may include “Why would you waste so much money on that solid-state piece of crap?” or “For that money, you could have “x” guitar and still have enough money to buy some decent effects”.

Then, being a drummer with nearly 15 years of experience under my belt, I notice the drum kit. As I said earlier, 98% of the time, local bands and sub-par bands have this kit. A 7 piece pearl export series with z custom cymbals and a double kick pedal. All on a large, shiny drum rack. I almost want to turn away from the show at that point. Why? Because while there may be 20,000 kits out there assembled that way, there are only 5,000 drummers who, in my opinion, who can give that kit justice. It is my burning and driving opinion that if you reduce the kit, you will make the drummer more solid.


Problem number 2: the kit is too big.

Solution: If all drummers could have a tattoo, I would want it to be KISS…not because of the ground breaking rock band, but because it stands for “keep it simple, stupid”. Lets be honest, you aren’t going to really use toms 3-8, and if you did, it probably wouldn’t fit in the song at all. You really only need a crash, a ride, and some hats. A splash is acceptable, but anything more than that is fluff. A pet peeve of mine is the china crash. It’s excellent for a quick cut through in metal, but most drummers I know use it as a ride. I want to rip my ears out at this point.

Drummers who excel in this: Matthew Puttman (lovedrug, Living sacrifice) Weston (eisley) Most jazz drummers. Let’s face it, half of the rock drummers out there only dream that they could play jazz. Jazz music=smaller kit. Rock music=huge kit. Surely you can make the connection there…

I have met many drummers in this great land of ours, and if there was one thing in common that they all have (yes, myself included) is that we are all puffed up with pride. Something about getting behind some wood, metal, and plastic and beating it all to death makes us feel so big, so masculine, and so God-like. I’ve been there too, but what we have to realize is that we are not there to have the spotlights on us. If you have this mindset, please do your guitarist a favor and find another band to play in. I'm sure that most drummers who read this are actually pretty good. There are a lot of great players out there. However, the problem comes when the drummer thinks “I should show off some of my skills in this part of the song. That’s different!” I worked at an office for a brief period of time, and one day I noticed that every day I went in to work, the office was always very clean. The trash had been taken out, the windows had been cleaned, and somehow, there was always the lingering scent of lemon. Every evening, when the employees had left, the janitor came in, when no one was there to see, and would clean up behind the mess we had just made.

Drummers, consider yourselves the janitors of the rock world, going behind the over inflated solo guitarists, the artsy and quiet rhythm guitarists, the eccentric bassists and bleeding heart vocalists and cleaning up whatever mess they bring to the stage. It is your job to clean it, polish it, and make it presentable. Its not a glorious job, so be prepared before you get into it.


Problem number 3: Your head is too big.

Solution: Change your mindset. You aren’t the focus of the band. Who in their right mind (besides other drummers who, arguably, aren’t in their right mind) would want to sit and listen to nothing but drums drums drums? Take the time to realize that you are the solid foundation to any rock band, and though without you, everything falls apart, you still need to have the humility about you to make sure that you do indeed make some good music together.

Drummers that excel in this: Pat Wilson (weezer) Fergal Lawler (The cranberries) and Local Drummers Eric Meeks and Josh Ayres. Some of the best drummers a guitarist could ask to play with.


Random Rants about drummers: Use fills tastefully, please don’t put them at the end of every phrase, or the end of every 4 phrases. Use them when the song calls for it. Your cymbals are made of precious melodic metals. They are not your girlfriend, so don’t bang them whenever you feel like it. Make sure the moment is right. Double kick pedals should really only be used in metal or hardcore. I'm tired of hearing lousy drummers buy double kicks and then put a quick flam at the beginning of every phrase. That sounds really terrible. Please stop. Put your sleeves back on. Sleeveless drummers bother me a little. It goes back to the ego thing. Your muscles don’t look bigger, so go ahead and stop the façade. Please tune your drums carefully. This is all up to your taste, but put some serious thought into it. This makes or breaks your drumming.

I do appreciate your time in reading this article. I hope that you and your band can use it. I have one goal in this whole article writing business…to make music better. I think I have some pretty good ideas that though aren’t original to me, they could be said by me. Remember that drums can make or break the band. Don’t be scared to tell your drummer to take a chill pill, and drummers, don’t get upset if someone tells you to be quiet. Remember what I told you about people in their right mind not wanting to listen to drums all day long? It’s a burden we bare; it’s just that others bear it better than some.
Drummers, you are the foundation, you are the solid rock, and you are the janitors. It’s not a flashy job, but without you and your excellence, rock music would not be where it is today. Keep up the good work.

-Mikey Harper

Thanks Deathmetalconga, he does have a few words of wisdom!


Now I will post my pointers to all of the guitarists out there, some who may not need this advice because they are actually great players and well-seasoned in the trenches - obviously, Mikey Harperis not one of these!


1.) When you have your rig plugged in and set up, turn your amp off, put your guitar on the stand and help the rest of the band set up for soundcheck. Don't start into some low-rent version of Jimi Hendrix and annoy the audience so that they leave because:

2.) your amp is too loud! Marshalls are always way too loud and most other amps are too loud too often. Don't complain about tone - Johnny A gets great tone in any room because he has learned how to get great tone in any room. It goes beyong the Mikey Harper method of plugging in, turning it up to 11 and then whinning about the drummer!

3.) You are not the focus; the music is.

4.) The drummer may be the janitor of the band (I prefer to call the drummer the lineman or the blocking back which I will explain later). We are the janitor of the band because somebody has to flush a piece of sh!t like Mikey Harper down the toilet! Thanks for the rmeinder of our vitality to society! The drummer ids the lineman of the band because when the drummer doesn't do his job correctly, everything falls apart!

5.) Mikey, remind all of your guitar player friends to get a metronome and practice to it every day! The best guitar player I worked with does and he never needs me to tap out where the beat is (sequences or not) for him when I am not playing in a break!

6.) Learn the value of tuning!

7.) Turn your distortion pedal down - you sound like a beginner when you have so much distortion that you can't even tell that it is a guitar that you playing! Less is more, Mikey Harper! Use the least amount that you can get by with. The cleanest amount is usually the best!

8.) Remember that your solos should have a point and not just be every lick you coped from Steve Vai! Also, most people don't enjoy watching you get your jollies playing thru a slow blues chord progression 9 times; 2 times is plenty. One would suffice, but your ego is just too big for that, Mikey!


9.) I love Warren Cuccurullo as he is great guitar player but he made his money by playing in bands such as Missing Persons and Duran Duran which afforded him the ability to put out his Thanks to Frank cd without a record company complaining that too few units will be sold. The lesson here is to keep yourself humble and you may yet someday get to show how great of guitar player you are!



Mikey Harper, the size of my drumkit depends on what kind of band I am playing in and how many eras of music I am covering. When I play in a retro band that covers songs like Jessies' Girl and Footloose, I going to use three toms (much to your chagrin) because those songs where recorded with at least a five piece kit. Playing those songs with just two toms does suit the feel and attitude of those songs and it definitely detracts from the star of the show - the music. Let's not forget the china hit on the end of Footloose. Without these crucial elements, the songs would not be the same. Kind of like a guitar player playing the whole night with just two strings.

Mikey Harper, strapping on a guitar doesn't make you smarter or more insightful than any drummer. Turn your amp down, turn your distortion down and keep it simple stupid, when it comes to solos!

9.) I love Warren Cuccurullo! He is great guitar player but he made his money by playing in bands such as Missing Persons and Duran Duran which afforded him the ability to put out his Thanks to Frank cd without a record company complaining that too few units will be sold. The lesson here is to keep yourself humble and you may yet someday get to show how great of guitar player you are!





Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[Deathmetalconga]

Thanks Deathmetalconga, he does have a few words of wisdom!

Now I will post my pointers to all of the guitarists out there, some who may not need this advice because they are actually great players and well-seasoned in the trenches - obviously, Mikey Harper is not one of these!


EXCELLENT!

This should be required reading for guitarists: http://www.rockandrollconfidential.com/hall/index.php

[Skitch]

EXCELLENT!

This should be required reading for guitarists: http://www.rockandrollconfidential.com/hall/index.php

DMC,

I don't know if any other drummer here have ever noticed that most guitar players set up their rig and then start playing and piddling around while the rest of the band is still working furiously to set up the PA and drums. I have noticed that most do and at times I have seen the other band members noticing it as well. There have been a few who are confident in their tone and playing abilities that just walk in, dial in their amp by sight (!) and they are ready to go! These are the great pros that I have had the pleasure of working with.

And I didn't categorize ALL guitarists needing these pointers.

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[Skitch]

This guitarist sound quite a bit like a guy I auditioned for last winter.....

The guy was a keyboard player, which should pretty much say it all - ha! I say this because musical instruments become like tribes or clans and keyboardist behave in ways that drummers or guitar players do not.

My story with this keyboard player goes something like this:

I responded to a tip that I got about a band in a nearby, but bigger city. They were in need of a drummer. So I contacted “Bruce”, the keyboard player and the apparent bandleader. A few things which were warning signs with Bruce was that I would be on break on a gig on a Friday or a Saturday Night and Bruce would keep talking as though I had nothing to do (or maybe HE didn’t have anything to do). I would start the conversation that I was on a gig and he knew immediately that I was on a gig and wasn’t available for a lengthy conversation. It just didn’t soak in.

Bruce also brought up as venue in his city that I was very familiar with and started saying things like, “Bands who go in there just don’t go in there and play like it is the usually gig…they go in there and play, knowing that they MUST be well rehearsed and a top level musician because everyone who goes to that venue knows music and will know bad musicians or an unrehearsed band that isn’t at the peak of refinement.” I knew the venue, had played there and I knew the bands that went in there were good, professional bands with good musicians. They weren’t always at their top level of performance. The venue was more of a hang spot for the local pro sports teams’ athletes’ to pick up women. They didn’t care about my ability to play linear or the proper acoustic tone.

I had all of the warning signs, but did I listen?

Then Bruce set up an audition time at his studio. When I got the directions, I was looking them up on Mapquest when Bruce started demanding in a phone conversation that I use Google Earth. He also called me up and told me that his bass player had just quit. He called the bass player (to me) a mercenary because the bass player needed to take a gig which was paying more – a financial decision Bruce called it.

So I still plodded away with all of the warning signs going off!

I went to the audition and when we started doing the music, it was just Bruce and I in his studio. Bruce was in another room and talking to me via the talkback mic, when he said, “Now, the proper acoustic tone for drums on all of these songs is for you to play the ride cymbal on the introduction and then you will play the hi hats on the verses than switch back to the ride on the choruses.”

“For this particular song?” I asked. “No…every song we play,” Bruce replied. Then after we had plodded thru a couple of tunes he brought up a tune that I knew very well. He said, “now the ride cymbal in the intro….” I asked him “Why use the ride cymbal?” and he said that it was that way on the record. When I said I don’t think that it is used on the intro of that song, he got huffy and said, “The proper acoustic tone for a song is the ride cymbal.”

Yeah….

At that point, I made my mind up, stood up from behind the drum kit and stated that I didn’t think that his project was a good fit for either of us and I didn’t see any point of going any further as I didn’t want to waste anymore of his time or anymore of my time.


Bruce got huffy and started defending his arrangements of the songs. I just stated my position again and left. Bruce then got on his computer and sent me a few lengthy emails, telling me off.


Funny, I have been to that venue he and his band were going to conquer, cut heads and let everyone know how much of a bad ass arranger and keyboard player he is. They have yet to book a gig there. They are probably waiting for Bruce to give the big thumbs up that everything is perfect, and that now, after four months of preparation, they have no more gigs lined up than they did in February.

The point is, is that we all have to deal with the expression of what I call the little league coach syndrome which is the need to abuse what little authority some people get when everything else in their life is out of control. Bruce had it; and I have run across many of these people. It sounds as if this guitarist is just another one.



Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[emmerson]

i would have to disagree with this about the amount of toms. if you have 3 toms ... that is the standard of what a drumkit comes in and everyone perfers their own setup however big or small it may be. Live within your means, and by that i mean only have it if you use it and stick to that instead of changing your perfered setup because someone thinks its overkill.

[Skitch]

i would have to disagree with this about the amount of toms. if you have 3 toms ... that is the standard of what a drumkit comes in and everyone perfers their own setup however big or small it may be. Live within your means, and by that i mean only have it if you use it and stick to that instead of changing your perfered setup because someone thinks its overkill.


Agreed! It falls under common sense!


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[elpol]

I love your story, Mike. I was nodding my head all the way thru... Sometimes you just have to see how it through, even though you had a pretty good idea!

I just wanted to toss in my 2.10 cents Canadian...

All of us have probably experienced "little coach" syndrome through various situations. Sometimes, everybody is an expert. Smile and nod and learn to recognize how to appease "coach" if it makes your life easier. Or, stick to your guns and walk out the door!

The only suggestion from my own personal experiences, that I would like to throw into the ring is that we drummers, as musicians, need to remember that the music is #1. We have to be responsible to the other musicians in an appropriate way, playing to the venue/situation, even taking into consideration what tools we use in various situations. I, for one, definitely tailor my set-up to fit the situation I've been hired for. But that's just me.

We have to be strong and confident in dissuading non-drummer meddlers who would have us believe they know our job better than we do. We also need to know when to keep our egos in check when and if we're working with players of a higher caliber than we are: It could be a learning experience coming that you didn't anticipate. Stay open!

We also need to know when to bite our tongues if it is the guy or girl who is signing the cheque. You just never know where those referrals are going to come from...

[Skitch]

I love your story, Mike. I was nodding my head all the way thru... Sometimes you just have to see how it through, even though you had a pretty good idea!

I just wanted to toss in my 2.10 cents Canadian...

All of us have probably experienced "little coach" syndrome through various situations. Sometimes, everybody is an expert. Smile and nod and learn to recognize how to appease "coach" if it makes your life easier. Or, stick to your guns and walk out the door!

The only suggestion from my own personal experiences, that I would like to throw into the ring is that we drummers, as musicians, need to remember that the music is #1. We have to be responsible to the other musicians in an appropriate way, playing to the venue/situation, even taking into consideration what tools we use in various situations. I, for one, definitely tailor my set-up to fit the situation I've been hired for. But that's just me.

We have to be strong and confident in dissuading non-drummer meddlers who would have us believe they know our job better than we do. We also need to know when to keep our egos in check when and if we're working with players of a higher caliber than we are: It could be a learning experience coming that you didn't anticipate. Stay open!

We also need to know when to bite our tongues if it is the guy or girl who is signing the cheque. You just never know where those referrals are going to come from...

You have echoed my sentiments exactly! It wasn't that I showed up with a bad attitude. Also, I defintely try to show up with the least amount of gear possible for any given situation. And you are definitely right about maintaining your composure and the guy who is signing the check!

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[bluesquaresound]

I agree a drummer needs to play what appropriate, but if the drums are part of band, then just like the guitars, vocalist and keyboard, then occasionally they can play lead and be the feature of a song (and I don't mean a drum solo.)
JD

[elpol]

I agree a drummer needs to play what appropriate, but if the drums are part of band, then just like the guitars, vocalist and keyboard, then occasionally they can play lead and be the feature of a song (and I don't mean a drum solo.)
JD
well, every situation would have it's own flavour that makes it tasty or not. definitely there are going to be times where drums can and do lead, and not be a solo.

the true jazz greats, just for example, have showed us how drums can be all three basic musical elements: rhythm, harmony, and melody.

unfortunately, you can't just show up at a r&b casual and be the show! you gotta support, and take on the very important task of making booty shake!

[elpol]

You have echoed my sentiments exactly! It wasn't that I showed up with a bad attitude....

Mike

I gotta give you props for having the serious patience to see it through, and knowing when the time was right to say "no" to psycho-band-leader-keyboard-guy and run. not to mention, being pro and not dissing the guy behind his back.

[Skitch]

I agree a drummer needs to play what appropriate, but if the drums are part of band, then just like the guitars, vocalist and keyboard, then occasionally they can play lead and be the feature of a song (and I don't mean a drum solo.)
JD


After all, the music is supposed to be the star!

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw