The Drummer's Place In "The Band"

[zambizzi]

I've been thinking about this lately - the importance and "proper place" for a drummer in a band. This is obviously different for drummers performing different styles...but overall, I'm trying to gauge where I'd like *my* place to be in a band that I settle in with.

I've played w/ several folks over the last few months...my first time playing w/ anyone about 5 mo. ago. I've noticed that some people want the drummer to be simple, background noise...no thrills, no frills, no FILLS...just a bottom fill-in to keep simple time. Naturally, I want to play what fits the music and not "over-play"...it's obnoxious and doesn't serve to make the music better...the music just suffers overall. As much as I love drummers like Peart and Beauford...I feel their parts are over-played and a little too busy. However, there are under-players as well...I'm sure we could name dozens on both sides. What I'm definitely NOT interested in, is under-playing.

I was recently invited to play in a folk band (definitely not my forte...I usually play heaver, blusier, rock, funk, etc.) After talking with the guy for a while, he basically tells me he wants to form the rest of the band first...establish some music, and *then* bring in a drummer to provide a simple backbeat to fill in on the "bottom end". Nice guy and all...but after hearing this I basically told him that I appreciated his time...but I'm not interested in only providing simple, repetitive background noise.

Why is there such a prevalent attitude with other musicians in a lot of bands that the drums are the least important part of the music? How do these guys figure that it's OK for them to throw their chops around but on the other hand...the drummer should keep quiet and show no skill? How common is this? What are your guys' experiences w/ this?

Thankfully, I've got a great little trio going and the guitarist I'm working with is not only a great player...but he encourages good drum parts and we improvise a lot. The bassist we're playing is more of a "dumb down the drummer" type but I attribute that to him being very new to his instrument...just a few months...and he has a hard time keeping up w/ a lot of the music. He's also got it in his head that the bass carries the music and everything else is an afterthought...but he's always cool and never pushy about these things.

Just my thoughts and observations...what are yours?

[brittc89]

Well, I guess the question you need to ask youself is, do you want to work or do you want to play? If you want work, a lot of times you will just be asked to "fill out the bottom end" as you said. But if you just want to play to play, you can jam all you want and play as many notes as you want and put fills wherever you see fit, thats totally your choice. And you can of course do both, but you have to be willing to play those parts which Im gathering you see as insgnificant, maybe even not worth your time. Not long ago I found something out. If youre bored with a part, you sound bored with the part, its oozing out of your playing, and whatta you know, either youre fired or they just dont call you back again. You have to be in love with every single note you play, you have to be riveted by every strike of the hi-hat and every kick of the bass. You have to really enjoy what you are doing. This can be hard sometimes though, it sounded like it wouldve been tough for you in that folk band so maybe it is best that you didnt take the gig. I dunno, thats just my take on the situation though and some generalities Ive found to be true in my experience.

[bighaibigdrums]

The reason a lot of bands just want the drummer to provide the backbeat is because thats what thier audience usually wants.

[ledzepjb]

I say srew the people that want''backround rythim''(i didnt spell that right), i play what i want and how i want, i play what i feel and how i feel, of course theres a limit and sometimes people ''over play'' but if you know when to stop then play that way. If your band only wants you to play simple stuff and you dont want to, then your not with the right people. So bacicaly, do what feels right for you, not for the others.

Dont play like that guy from CCR, its sooo boringg

[Deathmetalconga]

People like the concept of a drummer more than the reality of a drummer. Really, if you had no toms, just a snare, bass, hihat and ride, most bands would be happy. Yet virtually no drummer plays such a minimal set.

Having any greater role than boom-chick depends on the band. In what I do, I am as much a percussionist as a drummer and I am expected to do much more than just do boom-chick. The same rules against overplaying apply to everyone else in the band. I have to remind the violinist to restate the melody as often as possible, and lay off the solos that feature lots of 128th note fills. People remember melodies and hooks and beats, not solos, yet the violinist thinks the melody is something you do between solos. I think a solo should consist mainly of variations of the melody.

Zambizzi, since you are in the early stages of forming a band, discover what role you would like to have for yourself (sounds like you have that part figured out) and then find people who are cool with that.

[IDDrummer]

Good advice so far. I especially agree with both britt89 and DMC.

I am reminded of Ritchie Hayward, the drummer for Little Feat. He said he developed his style because Lowell George didn't like a lot of drum fills. So Ritchie learned to play such that the fills just sounded like part of the rhythm.

Just illustrates the point that most people don't think about the drums like most drummers do, I guess.

[Michael G]

"We don't seem to know what a drummer really is. He is not the showman- the guy who sits the highest or has his cymbals on backwards. He's the guy who makes the band sound good.

If they want you to play simple an no fills or anything, then they are just making their band sound a little worse. Fills play a huge part in the music, either subtly or dramatically. I would try to explain that next time this kind of thing comes up.

[Aquamaroon]

I've found that for bands that require the steady beat I tend to play lots of ghost notes on the snare, and it's pleasing both to my sense of musicality and the other members' sensibilities. There's ways to make the simple stuff interesting without going overboard.

[Geoff Tipps]

I wouldn't blow off the folk guy so quickly. You said you've only started playing with others 5 months ago.Learning to play steady and solid isn't a bad thing.Learning to interact with other players is not a bad thing. You can do alot with a simple beat , learning how to groove for instance or changing it'd feel by laying behind or on top of the beat.Subtlety is often overlooked by drummers and this could be a great learning situation.If you have the time , check it out, you don't have to commit , just see if you'll like it.

[Deathmetalconga]

I wouldn't blow off the folk guy so quickly. You said you've only started playing with others 5 months ago.Learning to play steady and solid isn't a bad thing.Learning to interact with other players is not a bad thing. You can do alot with a simple beat , learning how to groove for instance or changing it'd feel by laying behind or on top of the beat.Subtlety is often overlooked by drummers and this could be a great learning situation.If you have the time , check it out, you don't have to commit , just see if you'll like it.

That's a good way of looking at it. You have made me re-think the folk gig. Since he's just learning to play, it could be a very good band to start - not technically demanding, but nevertheless it would give good experience in playing with others, playing very simply and playing to fit the music. He would also get experience in the particulars of gigging, like setting up, tearing down, working with sound people, checking the acoustics of a place, etc.

[caprisun3484]

yea i hardly ever turn down playing with someone just because one i like playing but two i think that experience is the best teacher. so i would certainly play with that folk group i think it would help you add certain subtlties to your playing dynamic wise and in other ways that would help your playing all around. as far as the drummers role i think it's realy what you make it. i mean Carter Beauford could play really simple stuff in DMB but he decides adds a new component with what he plays. it's also how you play what you play Kashmir by Zeppelin is a great example of just grooving, it's one of the easiest beats to play but the way that Bonham plays makes it amazing.

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

I wouldn't say a band-mate bringing a near finished progression to you for the addition of rhythm parts is a bad thing. I actually prefer that either of my band-mates come to practice with some stuff already prepared. It is usually very easy for me to put my parts to their progressions. Some songs call for simple back-bone grooves, while others allow me to get a little more creative. I always try to fit the song- whatever it calls for. I try not to play the same grooves for each song, and when I hear a progression that is similar to another one of our songs I suggest we work on it in a different way. I know that my band-mates and I can fill an entire day of improv, but I find we are a lot more productive when semi-prepared material is brought to the table. I encourage the other guys to get together without me to work out progressions prior to bringing them to me.

[jazzin']

When people start talking about how much a drummer should play and what the exact role they can play is, I always remind myself that the ONLY reason a drummer is in any band is to provide a layer of time for the other musicians to play on. Your function, as someone already said, is to make the other musicians comfortable so that they can play their music better. If you happen to be good at that, you're a brilliant drummer.

If you can't handle the fact that as a drummer you will often be asked to not do anything more than play a simple beat with no extraneous crap then you will seriously struggle to ever make it. You must learn to think as a musician, not a drummer. For a drummer, fills sound good but sometimes they are not needed and don't add anything to a song. Or sometimes, the other muso's simply don't want the interference of a fill. All they want is a simple bed of time to play what they want in the most comfortable framework.

I must admit, I'm quite surprised by some of the answers. You start to realise why there are so many drummer jokes. The attitude that you should 'do what feels right for you, not the others' is probably the worst attitude a drummer could possibly have. You should take up guitar instead ;) In my opinion a drummer should have the exact opposite attitude. Do what feels right for the others, or band, not what you want to put in for the sake of cool drumming. Because, we all know that a drummers idea of cool drumming is not what most people would want in their band.

You should seriously take the chance to play with the folk guy. As brittc89 perfectly put it, you should play every note as if it is the greatest thing you ever played. Playing folk type music can be a great learning experience. To understand what it means to play for the music is the most important step a drummer can make towards becoming a musician.

To again quote brittc89, the question you want to ask yourself is 'Do you want to work or do you want to play?'

[Styx]

In my opinion, the band only sounds as good as the drummer. Have a crappy drummer and the whole band sounds crappy, have an excellent drummer who can interpret the music correctly and you have an awesome sounding band,regards of the style or genre. I guess it's just other musicians ignorance but a talented muso will ALWAYS appreciate what a talented drummer can bring to the music.Period.

[Tetley]

i agree with a lot of the answers above, the folk band could be a very good learning experience in playing to the music and holding back etc.

if you do want a career in music/drumming then jazzin' has all the right answers. When you attempt to make a living as a session guy/pro drummer then you have to play what other people want, to fit with the project.

if you are not specifically looking for a career, (for instance if my band makes it then cool but if they dont then i have no plans to do session work etc.) then find a band in which the style of playing you wish to pursue is available. in one of my bands i can do what i want, The band trust me to play to the song and not overcomplicate things, but want me to put in fills and flicks and bits of this and that, the music lends itself towards it. Suits me fine as i am a busy player, but i have another group i jam with where the emphasis is different, i really just need to groove. Again suits me fine as i can learn to sit back and play gentle and more thoughtful stuff.

My point is,
session drumming/career - then do as your told and be prepared to love every note

playing for yourself/only interested in band projects - find a band that suits you and gives you the freedom to be as expansive as you wish within it. even within the band though, if you are being told that its too busy, it more than likely is. tone it down

[harryconway]

You have the power to write "your own" ticket. What do you want to be? I look at my job in the context of "me and the bass player" are the rhythm section. So is the bass player a Dusty Hill or a John Entwistle style player? I play the game as a team sport. All the cats understand the basics. I drive. They follow. When the rhythm section is locked in tight, the guitars can fight us (and always lose) or go with us (and we'll make them sound superb). No ego's either (that will always get in the way).

[zambizzi]

I appreciate all the feedback guys, thanks!

I play 2x a week w/ "my" band and this folk gig would be an extra, side thing...mainly just for the experience of playing a genre of music I typically don't play. If this were a "work or starve" situation...and I were a working, professional drummer...certainly I'd play whatever is asked of me. So, for the "do you want to work or do you want to play" question...for now...I want to play...but I'm taking it all in as much as possible to learn quickly.

I'm not entirely opposed to simple backbeats, wasn't trying to give that impression. The guys I play with every week are into several different types of music...mostly rock...but of wildly varying tastes. We usually do Back In Black as a warmup song when we first get together...it doesn't get much more simple than that...but I *do* love every note I'm playing...it's fun even though it's stupid-simple. However, once we make it through the song, we'll start to improvise. We'll groove together, do some basic soloing back-and-forth, and then return to the main groove in-between all of this. This usually carries on for 10-15 minutes...good times! We've done this for a few covers, which are usually fairly simple to play (Zep's "The Ocean") - and it's lead to some interesting original material as well.

I would have to say that *this* is exactly where I'd like to "specialize". I absolutely *love* the jam-band concept. I don't mind a 4/4 boom-crack, boom-crack if it's going somewhere...if there's something to it....even a *little* bit of accenting, at least!

However, there is a certainly "safety" level in doing this folk thing, should it end up being a (very) part time gigging situation. It would require very little of my practice time and would be nearly impossible to screw up in front of an audience. So, DMC - that's some solid advice...use it as a way to learn how to gig.

Thanks again!

[xush]

the ONLY reason a drummer is in any band is to provide a layer of time for the other musicians to play on. Your function, as someone already said, is to make the other musicians comfortable so that they can play their music better.


I'm always shocked when I see permutations of this idea expressed...

Don't other musicians have responsibility for keeping time? No one else has to even consider their sense of time-keeping? I can't accept that. We're all musicians in the band, we all have a role in building a song musically, not just tempo/time-wise.
What if the drums aren't playing for a passage or two? Is it suddenly 'free-time?'

I just can't wrap my head around that. I suppose I could be wrong, but I believe a drummer has as much musical input into song-structure and performance as anyone he's playing with. What about dynamics? Feel? Nuance? Are those needed to provide a layer of time for the other musicians?

To me, unless I'm totally misunderstanding such opinions, I don't see how drumming can be ONLY about time-keeping and that's IT- no other function. Too simple and generalized for my concept of music.

[dizkneelande]

I'm always shocked when I see permutations of this idea expressed...

Don't other musicians have responsibility for keeping time? No one else has to even consider their sense of time-keeping? I can't accept that. We're all musicians in the band, we all have a role in building a song musically, not just tempo/time-wise.
What if the drums aren't playing for a passage or two? Is it suddenly 'free-time?'

I just can't wrap my head around that. I suppose I could be wrong, but I believe a drummer has as much musical input into song-structure and performance as anyone he's playing with. What about dynamics? Feel? Nuance? Are those needed to provide a layer of time for the other musicians?

To me, unless I'm totally misunderstanding such opinions, I don't see how drumming can be ONLY about time-keeping and that's IT- no other function. Too simple and generalized for my concept of music.

I agree completely but a lot of musicians dont get this. it's what they've been told by others who think this narrowly and they think keeping time is the drummers job. the people I play with usually get what your saying and realize that the music as a whole is everyones job to propel forward. the comment about peart adn chambers I do not agree with. they're not over playing if it's what they're going for. it suits the music.

[zambizzi]

I'm always shocked when I see permutations of this idea expressed...

Don't other musicians have responsibility for keeping time? No one else has to even consider their sense of time-keeping? I can't accept that. We're all musicians in the band, we all have a role in building a song musically, not just tempo/time-wise.
What if the drums aren't playing for a passage or two? Is it suddenly 'free-time?'

I just can't wrap my head around that. I suppose I could be wrong, but I believe a drummer has as much musical input into song-structure and performance as anyone he's playing with. What about dynamics? Feel? Nuance? Are those needed to provide a layer of time for the other musicians?

To me, unless I'm totally misunderstanding such opinions, I don't see how drumming can be ONLY about time-keeping and that's IT- no other function. Too simple and generalized for my concept of music.

100% in agreement with you there. Drummers are not strictly drum machines...they're part of the music...and just as important as anyone else in the band as far as musical contribution.

I've played w/ a few different folks now...the first guitar player had a very hard time keeping time straight...when he did we sounded like crap - no matter how good my time was.

The new guy is sharp as a tack...timing is surgical...and we sound much, much better together.

[Skitch]

100% in agreement with you there. Drummers are not strictly drum machines...they're part of the music...and just as important as anyone else in the band as far as musical contribution.

I've played w/ a few different folks now...the first guitar player had a very hard time keeping time straight...when he did we sounded like crap - no matter how good my time was.

The new guy is sharp as a tack...timing is surgical...and we sound much, much better together.


Tony Williams once said that it EVERYONE's responsibilty to keep good time;

Now, the caveat is that the drummer is the foundation for the time more so than anyone else. For example, on a recording session recently, for some odd reason all had in my mix was the piano (keyboard). His time was all over the place! But, keyboard players actually have a little more lattitude than drummers do. I am not saying that the keyboard player was bad; his responsibilty was not laying down the groove - it was providing the styling for the vocalists.

I have also had other players who hired me come to me and say "I have horrible time but please follow me as best as you can. I know that it isn't your fault." This guy was great to work with because he knew going in his time was deficient, even if his time was bad his attitude kept everything in perspective.


It is the guy who thinks his time is impecable but in reality isn't, you have to watch out for!

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[Skitch]

I'm always shocked when I see permutations of this idea expressed...

Don't other musicians have responsibility for keeping time? No one else has to even consider their sense of time-keeping? I can't accept that. We're all musicians in the band, we all have a role in building a song musically, not just tempo/time-wise.
What if the drums aren't playing for a passage or two? Is it suddenly 'free-time?'

I just can't wrap my head around that. I suppose I could be wrong, but I believe a drummer has as much musical input into song-structure and performance as anyone he's playing with. What about dynamics? Feel? Nuance? Are those needed to provide a layer of time for the other musicians?

To me, unless I'm totally misunderstanding such opinions, I don't see how drumming can be ONLY about time-keeping and that's IT- no other function. Too simple and generalized for my concept of music.

The best guitar player I ever played with practiced to a metronome evey day. Most guitar players complain about even thinking about having to play to a click. One night, I wasn't keeping the hi hat going with the click, so that everyone in the band would know where the click was. This guitar player came right in on the exact spot where he should have.

Drumming isn't only about time keeping but timekeeping is the biggest part of drumming. I think that nuance and dynamics are independent of timekeeping. Neither should affect the time. Feel is another matter. If the feel is great , the time should be as well.

My bottom line is that if your time is great and feel is great, then it doesn't take long for the cream to rise to the top where you will find musicians with like-minded goals.

Back to the guitar players; my experience is that many musicians would rather complain about working with a metronome than to just sit down and do it!

A well-respected (by me at least - after all he did play with Gregg Bissonette) bass player, told me one day to forget all of the Neil Peart stuff and focus on my time and feel. Because that is where it is at. All of the Neil Peart stuff would take care of itself.

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[jazzin']

I'm always shocked when I see permutations of this idea expressed...

Don't other musicians have responsibility for keeping time? No one else has to even consider their sense of time-keeping? I can't accept that. We're all musicians in the band, we all have a role in building a song musically, not just tempo/time-wise.
What if the drums aren't playing for a passage or two? Is it suddenly 'free-time?'

I just can't wrap my head around that. I suppose I could be wrong, but I believe a drummer has as much musical input into song-structure and performance as anyone he's playing with. What about dynamics? Feel? Nuance? Are those needed to provide a layer of time for the other musicians?

To me, unless I'm totally misunderstanding such opinions, I don't see how drumming can be ONLY about time-keeping and that's IT- no other function. Too simple and generalized for my concept of music.

Of course other musicians have that responsibility. I thought that goes without saying. I'm not saying that a drummer doesn't have input with dynamics, feel, nuance etc. Of course they do. That is one of the drummers main functions as well and I generally consider that to have good time you must also have a great feel for dynamics etc. Good feel will only come from having good time and a good understanding of dynamics.

As to song structure, it depends what the situation is. If you have been asked to join a pre-existing band then you probably won't have a say in song structure. But, I don't see how a drummer having any input into song structure has any relation as to the actual function of a drummer in a playing context. That really depends on the situation of the band and where the drummer has come from etc.

It is a simple generalisation but thats what I was trying to get at. The essence of a drummers purpose is to function as a time keeper. Any good drummer should tell you that because thats what we do. Once we can do that, then if it's good for the music and band to do extra stuff then thats all good. But, you have to take care of the business first otherwise you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing as a drummer.

Quote time :) "That's what the drummer is supposed to do: keep the time. If you can do something else besides that, fine. But, the time is essential. That's non-negotiable." Elvin Jones.
"...That's why time is so important, because if you have the time feeling - the swing feeling - you can become as free as you want as long as that basic element is there." Shelly Manne.

This is what I'm trying to get at. Anyone can talk as much as they want about doing crazy stuff or just doing what they want in a band but really what it comes down to, in my opinion, is that a drummer, first and foremost, must simply take care of the time. I also think that feel and dynamics are an essential part of good time, not separate. As Skitch said, the drummer is the foundation of the time. Everyone has an equal part in a band. Some are of course more up front than others and a lot of the time a drummer will be considered the most dispensable person in it. An unfortunate truth, although some styles and musicians consider the drummer as a more important part than just a timekeeper.

If you don't get that this is a drummers main purpose (but not the only thing a drummer CAN do), what are you doing?

[zambizzi]

...If you don't get that this is a drummers main purpose (but not the only thing a drummer CAN do), what are you doing?

I also agree with you here, I never claimed that timekeeping was secondary to throwing chops around. I take timekeeping seriously and it's my #1 priority. I won't do many of the licks I know I'm capable of if I think it'll interfere w/ the groove, take the song in the wrong direction, or compromise the *entire band's* ability to keep time correctly. It's a matter of feel...and then I think to myself "yeah...I could throw a cool new fill in right here!"...but if it doesn't feel right or "seamless"...I'll hold back...do something far more simple...or nothing at all.

So yes, if a drummer can't keep time he's not a good drummer...that's the backbone of the band and should be our #1 priority.

What I was getting at, originally, is that this guy is in the process of *forming* the band right now. He contacted me first to see if I'd be interested in this style of music...I said "maybe". After talking with him...he clearly stated that he was going to find some other musicians first and pull the drums in *last* to "fill in the bottom end"....meaning he doesn't expect more than "um-pah, um-pah, um-pah, um-pah" to provide a machine-like drum sound in the background.

Would this pique your interest, at first glance?

[xush]

If you don't get that this is a drummers main purpose (but not the only thing a drummer CAN do), what are you doing?

I don't think I would have been motivated to reply if the original statement had been worded this way. But it said "the ONLY reason a drummer is in any band is to provide a layer of time for the other musicians to play on," which to me is a radically different implication.
I think I can live with the amended statement~ :-)

we all serve the song. That may mean different things for different songs.

[slingerland755]

[I was recently invited to play in a folk band (definitely not my forte...I usually play heaver, blusier, rock, funk, etc.) After talking with the guy for a while, he basically tells me he wants to form the rest of the band first...establish some music, and *then* bring in a drummer to provide a simple backbeat to fill in on the "bottom end". Nice guy and all...but after hearing this I basically told him that I appreciated his time...but I'm not interested in only providing simple, repetitive background noise.

I just watched Billy Ward's Big Time DVD. He was talking about knowing what not to play (for the sake of the song) but still being able to make it complex. The folk gig could be a great learning experience. You could lay down "simple, repetitive background noise" but you could try and make it perfect for the song yet complex without your band mates (or the audience) even knowing (ie offbeat left foot pattern or a syncopated ride/hihat pattern, etc).

Good luck

[darknessdude16]

Having been with my band now for around 5 months or so, I feel we are finally getting into some sort of 'groove' if you like. We are a simple 4 piece (Vox, Guitar, Bass and Perc) who are experimenting with different covers until we obviously get 'our sound' but at the moment I dont really know what that sound is, everyone else seems clear on what they want, Bassist wants something rocky but not shouty, singer wants something hard sound, guitarist wants a mizture of the afore mentioned and I dont know. I feel as though I want to just go to practice and see what happens, they all seem to want to go somewhere and do something where as I'm happy to go with the groove and see what happens! This doesnt really tell about 'my place' in the band as a drummer but more of 'my place' in the group of people!

Although I feel that my role is to keep time, keep groove and enjoy myself. The trouble is that it seems all our mates are together for no time what so ever and make it somewhere very quickly, because they have the same sound of current music. I dont want that, I want to be able to play something interesting and nice sounding definately not "providing simple, repetitive background noise." Im with you on this one, where some drummers not saying any of us here, would be happy yo sit and play simple beats and keep time, where as we want to be able to express our feeling and playing through the music!

The thing with bands is that the singer, guitarist, bassist, keyboardist or whatever, STANDING roles (Where they stand up) as I will call them, they have the opportunity to move around and be what they want through movement as well as playing, we on the other hand sit down and are limited with this. I may feel this way about not wanting to play simple beats because I cannot move around, I don't want to be Lars Ulrich (I am not a monkey, no offense Lars or any Lars fans, I am a Lars fan myself so there :p ) but I would like to be heard and not just seen, we can provide th steady back beat but can also be there to provide a fronting as well, hope this makes sense, sorry for the rambling, thanks :-) x

Definitely 20 Characters!!!!

[nebula821]

Neil Peart said something about this in his book "Traveling Music". It was something like "Do you want to keep the beat or do you want to play your instrument", referring to the fact that he chooses the latter.

[Wavelength]

Instead of keeping time, I like to give time...

[aydee]

Of course other musicians have that responsibility. I thought that goes without saying. I'm not saying that a drummer doesn't have input with dynamics, feel, nuance etc. Of course they do. That is one of the drummers main functions as well and I generally consider that to have good time you must also have a great feel for dynamics etc. Good feel will only come from having good time and a good understanding of dynamics.



As to song structure, it depends what the situation is. If you have been asked to join a pre-existing band then you probably won't have a say in song structure. But, I don't see how a drummer having any input into song structure has any relation as to the actual function of a drummer in a playing context. That really depends on the situation of the band and where the drummer has come from etc.

It is a simple generalisation but thats what I was trying to get at. The essence of a drummers purpose is to function as a time keeper. Any good drummer should tell you that because thats what we do. Once we can do that, then if it's good for the music and band to do extra stuff then thats all good. But, you have to take care of the business first otherwise you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing as a drummer.

Quote time :) "That's what the drummer is supposed to do: keep the time. If you can do something else besides that, fine. But, the time is essential. That's non-negotiable." Elvin Jones.
"...That's why time is so important, because if you have the time feeling - the swing feeling - you can become as free as you want as long as that basic element is there." Shelly Manne.

This is what I'm trying to get at. Anyone can talk as much as they want about doing crazy stuff or just doing what they want in a band but really what it comes down to, in my opinion, is that a drummer, first and foremost, must simply take care of the time. I also think that feel and dynamics are an essential part of good time, not separate. As Skitch said, the drummer is the foundation of the time. Everyone has an equal part in a band. Some are of course more up front than others and a lot of the time a drummer will be considered the most dispensable person in it. An unfortunate truth, although some styles and musicians consider the drummer as a more important part than just a timekeeper.

If you don't get that this is a drummers main purpose (but not the only thing a drummer CAN do), what are you doing?

What I would add to Jazzin's view is that, often when we debate time v/s " other crazy stuff", we end up thinking of time as some metronomic, quantized, clicking of a beat.

We have to remember that we can stretch time , pull it, push it, make it very dense/ sparse, groove it,complicate it uncomplicate it ...etc, which in its own way is 'musicianship as well'.

[fat in the middle]

Instead of keeping time, I like to give time...

well said wave.....

When I am in a situation that reguires simple playing, I take the opportunity to explore the sonic diversity of the kit, you can be creative in a simple way, by playing a different part of the cymbal etc etc...What happened for me was i got into writing music, and offering situations melodic ideas, learn the guitar, or a fiddle, or what ever...singing..its all infront of ourselves. Our role and insecurities is different for each song. People that work usually play the song, and more work means diverse situations down the road...Folk music played right on the drums demands jazz chops,,brush technique,,mallets, all those things...we are creative people, not complainers..dive in!

www.paulclifford.moonfruit.com

[zambizzi]

What I would add to Jazzin's view is that, often when we debate time v/s " other crazy stuff", we end up thinking of time as some metronomic, quantized, clicking of a beat.

We have to remember that we can stretch time , pull it, push it, make it very dense/ sparse, groove it,complicate it uncomplicate it ...etc, which in its own way is 'musicianship as well'.

Exactly, well said. I was really inspired by Dave King last Friday...caught The Bad Plus downtown at an outdoor gig...they were just awesome.

The whole band flowed with him...and sometimes *without* him. Sometimes the bass would anchor the tune...sometimes piano...and obviously he often would. However the whole band would flow and alter the tempo, the time signature. They would eventually meet back at some point. It was truly fantastic music. Their "prog" CD hasn't left my car since Friday.

Anyhow, this inspired me to think about this even further. I definitely see myself in more of a "progressive" setting than the steady backbeat style of playing. I've got a guitar player that thinks a lot like I do...and we respect each other's instrument and style enough to do what we want and not step on each others' feet.

I think if a band can flow together like this...it's definitely good to go outside of the boundaries and explore the music. In the end, for me, it's all got to groove...and groove well...regardless of how abstract it becomes.

[dale w miller]

it really comes down to the song-writer's taste. hopefully you will find that song-writer in your life that works well with you so you play the way you wish. whatever that way may be. if not, you have to learn and just take "it" a bit until you find the one you need. think of it this way, the who have gone on without Keith Moon for years who himself has influenced and entire generation and more to play. if that can be, it pretty much shows you our place.

Here (http://www.dalewmiller.com/vent2.html#11-02-00) is an article a wrote some years ago when singer-songwriters were really getting on my nerves.

[zambizzi]

it really comes down to the song-writer's taste. hopefully you will find that song-writer in your life that works well with you so you play the way you wish. whatever that way may be. if not, you have to learn and just take "it" a bit until you find the one you need. think of it this way, the who have gone on without Keith Moon for years who himself has influenced and entire generation and more to play. if that can be, it pretty much shows you our place.

Here (http://www.dalewmiller.com/vent2.html#11-02-00) is an article a wrote some years ago when singer-songwriters were really getting on my nerves.

Great article, thanks for sharing!

[Erik Lund]

"Why is there such a prevalent attitude with other musicians in a lot of bands that the drums are the least important part of the music? How do these guys figure that it's OK for them to throw their chops around but on the other hand...the drummer should keep quiet and show no skill? How common is this? What are your guys' experiences w/ this?"


Well, without pulling any punches, I would say this is because there are a lot of absolutely terrible drummers out there who totally overplay and do it badly - so many people/singers/songwriters who have dealt with these drummers so they start out with "Just play the beat" not wanting another horrible drummer who think he's Keith Moon. I find (not always) that the drummer is the least..."musical" of the group.

Meaning:

- they are the last ones to realize that their fills are not helping the vocals
- they think riding on that china cymbal is really making the song exciting (when it's actually just annoying...even to other drummers)
- they throw some bombastic fill into a place where it totally doesn't fit, but they are hoping some cute girl at the bar might have noticed and will suddenly feel compelled to talk to the drummer after the show
- they don't realize the girl is already in love with the frontman...


If this is not you, then you can prove them wrong with your playing. Once they TRUST your musicianship - you will have more free reign - but I've been to so many shows where the drummer is the weak link...Good songs - happenin' vibe - then "What the hell was that?!" Due to Los Angeles' population, I'm sure there's more of that here, but ratio-wise it's probably pretty "across-the-board"...

Call me a cynic.

[fat in the middle]

"Why is there such a prevalent attitude with other musicians in a lot of bands that the drums are the least important part of the music? How do these guys figure that it's OK for them to throw their chops around but on the other hand...the drummer should keep quiet and show no skill? How common is this? What are your guys' experiences w/ this?"


Well, without pulling any punches, I would say this is because there are a lot of absolutely terrible drummers out there who totally overplay and do it badly - so many people/singers/songwriters who have dealt with these drummers so they start out with "Just play the beat" not wanting another horrible drummer who think he's Keith Moon. I find (not always) that the drummer is the least..."musical" of the group.

Meaning:

- they are the last ones to realize that their fills are not helping the vocals
- they think riding on that china cymbal is really making the song exciting (when it's actually just annoying...even to other drummers)
- they throw some bombastic fill into a place where it totally doesn't fit, but they are hoping some cute girl at the bar might have noticed and will suddenly feel compelled to talk to the drummer after the show
- they don't realize the girl is already in love with the frontman...


If this is not you, then you can prove them wrong with your playing. Once they TRUST your musicianship - you will have more free reign - but I've been to so many shows where the drummer is the weak link...Good songs - happenin' vibe - then "What the hell was that?!" Due to Los Angeles' population, I'm sure there's more of that here, but ratio-wise it's probably pretty "across-the-board"...

Call me a cynic.

Just to add to your well designed rant......with drums, the sonic impact is more defined, when a drummer makes a mistake its more obvious than a lead guitarist for example.
We as drummers have to really master the art of restraint. Other wise we won't work. A good musician as my friend said, should be able to make music with a wrench!

[gusty]

Just to add to your well designed rant......with drums, the sonic impact is more defined, when a drummer makes a mistake its more obvious than a lead guitarist for example.
We as drummers have to really master the art of restraint. Other wise we won't work. A good musician as my friend said, should be able to make music with a wrench!

Well said...I guess some guitarist/bassists/singers don't realise that getting that big whole bar fill with 16th notes around the kit at 180bpm is actually kinda tricky to get sounding really good...maybe a bit of a bad example but you get what i'm saying?

[rockinrider]

...Once they TRUST your musicianship - you will have more free reign - ...

Well said...I guess some guitarist/bassists/singers don't realise that getting that big whole bar fill with 16th notes around the kit at 180bpm is actually kinda tricky to get sounding really good......

I feel these two statements go together:

Other musicians do appreciate the big 16th note fill at 180bpm...When it's done well and successfully. When done poorly, it's a musical disaster! Most musicians want the job done well. (Picky, aren't they!)

My question is: why do we perceive that drummers get the least appreciation? Are drummers really the worst offenders? Or are we, generally, overly sensitive? Is it true that most drummers are musically ignorant (i.e. do not read music, understand musical structure and theory, etc)?

I don't have the answers to these questions. I have had mostly good band experiences and relations over the years.

Of course, we all would be well served if we just understood Eric's insight:
"- they don't realize the girl is already in love with the frontman..." LOL!

[Erik Lund]

I don't want to sound like I'm saying "Don't put those fills in there" 'cause I'll put the kitchen sink in if I can - but by the time I get to that point of knowing the song - I know where that sink's gonna go and where it'll work:

The kitchen. Duh.


The band I moved to LA with - first time I played the guy said "Okay - real simple beat - bass drum throughout" - So I played it bare-bones, how he expected it to sound (in his head) and then said "Can we play it again, and I'll just try some stuff?"

So we play it again and I'm doing more to build the chorus, or changing it up so the 3rd verse is the same, but different - more tension (more notes!) etc.

He says "okay - from now on you can do whatever the hell you want and that's fine by me!"

But I'm still PLAYING THE SONG.

I'm auditioning with a band this week that is touring (US/Europe! Hooray maybe I can quit my day job! : ) and the music is very cool, the drumming is on the minimalist side, perhaps - but I'm already thinking about how to shape it/make it better so I can stand out from the other drummers. (Singer heard my weird/out myspace sax/drum duos and absolutely loved them, so maybe it's meant to be!)


As for the drummers getting the shaft in terms of respect - in jazz lately, the drummers have been putting out the more interesting albums - and critics have started pointing that out. So that's good...

[gusty]

I feel these two statements go together:

Other musicians do appreciate the big 16th note fill at 180bpm...When it's done well and successfully. When done poorly, it's a musical disaster! Most musicians want the job done well. (Picky, aren't they!)

My question is: why do we perceive that drummers get the least appreciation? Are drummers really the worst offenders? Or are we, generally, overly sensitive? Is it true that most drummers are musically ignorant (i.e. do not read music, understand musical structure and theory, etc)?


Yes. My band loves to see me "go off", and certanly does our (and other similar bands) audience. But you've really got to nail it on the head, this goes back to practising slow etc...if you dont then a lack of skill can easily show...this is because drums are the backbone of a band, drums screw up, mostly the band screws up.

[fat in the middle]

Bottom line is we hit things! You walk into a primary school classroom, and 1 kid is playing with blocks [piano player], another is drawing [singer] another is playing with playdough [bassist] and another is whacking things with sticks [drummer], you would watch the kid whacking things, hoping he/she ain't wrecking the place. We have a powerful instrument, and people take note. I was just practicing my timbales, when a lawn mower was making a horrible racket next door, and guess who got told to shutup?
Maybe we need a new reality tv show where musicians swap roles, like wife swap. Just to see what its like.

[drumtechdad]

Call me a cynic.

You're a cynic. I used to be but I just can't keep up anymore. ;-)

When a band needs a drummer, they don't sit around thinking to themselves, "Boy I wish we could find a drummer who can do polyrhythmic fills." They sit around thinking, "Boy I wish we could find a drummer who can groove and make the music feel good."