Improving kick

[MadJazz]

I'm trying to play faster and cleaner doubles with my right foot on kick. I'm not keen on the heel-toe thing. The reverse, toe-heel, is more sensible to me since I always play heel up. When I need a double hit, I just add the heel after the toe. I used to do both doubles with the toes. Now I'm trying to do the 2nd strike with the flat of my foot / heel. It's a slight improvement but I'm getting frustrated. I have no prob doing a single double strike in a groove, but continuous doubles are hard to keep clean. The continuous flow of doubles would be great in a solo.

How can I learn faster?

I've been messing with the pedal settings and can't find the ideal config.

[Wavelength]

How can I learn faster?

How about practicing some more?

[Class A Drummer]

I play heel up too, but heel toe is much more natural i figure than toe heel. I thought as you did, but then after like 2 days of messin around with heel toe i realized how much easier it was and more natural it felt.

Just practice, but dont practice too hard with your feet because you dont want to hurt yourself.

[Johnny from the block]

The reverse, toe-heel, is more sensible to me since I always play heel up. When I need a double hit, I just add the heel after the toe.

don't you feel like your second beat (with the heel) is a bit less loud then the first one. I use heel-toe, and the way I see it, the 2 beats sound equally loud because with the forst one I kick a bit harder (possible because it's the first one and I have the time) and the second one is a normal kick.

But perhaps I'm wrong ... or maybe you found a way to undo it. (I play heel down btw)

[MadJazz]

don't you feel like your second beat (with the heel) is a bit less loud then the first one. I use heel-toe, and the way I see it, the 2 beats sound equally loud because with the forst one I kick a bit harder (possible because it's the first one and I have the time) and the second one is a normal kick.

But perhaps I'm wrong ... or maybe you found a way to undo it. (I play heel down btw)

My 2nd strike is always louder or at least as loud as the first. The heel produces more force than the toe.

[jayp]

Dont mean to chime in on your post but, I got a question...

When performing the "heel-toe" method is it performed right toe then heel then left toe then heel or...

right toe left toe right heel left heel?

[d.c.drummer]

Drumming doesnt sound right on paper (whi was the goon who decided to cross his arms to play drums) while you play heel up like me, i think heel toe would be an easier and more effective method to do doobles. Heel up doubles are very good to learn though, beause then you can do triples and quads.

[MadJazz]

How about practicing some more?

Thanks for your constructive advice, smarta$$.

Honestly, how do you people practice kick speed and how do you improve? If speed goes at the expense of consistency or volume, it's of no use to me.

[sshu]

FWIW - I recall seeing Steve Smith's DVD where he talked about heel-toe ... I think he mentioned close to a half year of work just to get the motion down. He practiced real slowly from what I recall to get the mechanics down.

The trouble I encounter when trying to do heel toe is that it is a big step backwards for me speedwise from heels down. Probably need to invest enough time to get over that hurdle.

I remember switching from matched to traditional grip - took me easily more than 6 months until one day it really clicked. I wonder whether switching or augmenting bass drum technique takes just as long.

Steve

[el presidente]

(whi was the goon who decided to cross his arms to play drums)

Before hi-hats were invented jazz players only used the ride cymbal. So the snare was worked with the left hand and the ride with the right. When the hi hats were invented they had to be placed on the left so they could be opened closed with the free left foot. Hence, the cross your arms technique.

[II xMETALx II]

How about practicing some more?

hmm yeah i agree thats all you can really do

[LimaBeans]

The constant release (which is essentially push/pull with the feet) can produce cleaner doubles at high tempos than heel-toe, but for mid-tempos, normal heel-up is the way to go.

JiltedNut has a good video for the constant release (combining heel up and heel down)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDp1wYOaObY
It's basically goes like this:
1. Strike the pedal in heel-up position (stroke 1)
2. Instead of bringing your foot back up (and leaving your heel up) to strike again, let your heel fall down into heel-down position.
3. Strike the pedal heel-down (stroke 2) (the second stroke IS NOT produced as soon as the heel goes crashing down, it's a normal heel-down stroke)
4. Instead of leaving your heel planted on the footboard in heel-down position, bring it back up into heel-up position.
5. Repeat the process, this might make more sense if you watch the video. It takes a little longer to get, but it seems more practical.

It also doesn't require that you slam your heel onto the pedal. That's always a good thing. However, I recommend building up for heel-up and heel-down doubles as fast as you can by doing rudimental-type exercises with your feet. RRRRRRRRLLLLLLLL (continuously), Paradiddles, Paradiddlediddles, RLLRLLRLL, LRRLRRLRR, RRLLRRLLRRLL, blah blah blah without using a special technique. Work stuff like that with heel-up and heel-down, since the constant release uses both muscle groups. You'll also gain a great deal of control. I've recently started this and I'm improving more in a few weeks than I have in months of practice (with double kick). Doing these exercises instead of simply doing singles or doubles non-stop helps out when I have a short attention span...

The most truthful reply was this though:
How about practicing some more?
A lot of people tend to enjoy reading, watching, and thinking about great technique but never spend the time practicing it. If you have trouble with your attention span (like I do) always practice in a groove or rudimental setting. Mix it up, but always keep the idea the same. As long as you're playing, you're working the muscles. You'll also gain the benefit of coming out of practice with new groove ideas as well as better technique.

[Wavelength]

A lot of people tend to enjoy reading, watching, and thinking about great technique but never spend the time practicing it.

Exactly. I've found that plain old woodshedding will work wonders, and those "special" techniques sort of evolve all by themselves. When I started playing the drums, I played both heel up and heel down. I had never heard of the heel-toe techique, but when I tried to get two quick consecutive strokes out of the bass drum, after some hours of failed attempts my foot just "found out" that I could accomplish those strokes with a heel-toe motion. The "new" technique was just an amalgamation of the heel up and heel down motions.

Similarily I've realised that I use the "flat foot" and "swivel" motions and some "constant release" to play a stream of fast strokes. I've never really practiced those things -- rather, my foot has developed these motions through an adaptative "trial and error" process. The only thing you really need to work on is letting the beater rebound off the head when playing heel up and heel down, and changing seamlessly from heel up to heel down (and vice versa). Anything else is just derivative from those to fundamental techniques. The motions change when the rate of notes changes, but the underlying technique concepts stay the same.

[MadJazz]

Limabeans, that's exactly what I'm doing, except point 5 is hard to realize. I have no prob in doing a fast & clean double. I get into trouble when playing continuous doubles. The strikes become less clean or I miss a strike from time to time. What I played until now was this, only not so fast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o0B7OlrGdQ&mode=related&search=

What about pedal settings? I thought heightening the board will gain more swivel. I then compensate by placing the beater closer. Now you can gain more momentum but the pedal feels harder, especially at the end of the strike. So I compensate by having the springs a bit looser (not fully loose).
Anyway, this didn't help me improving and I switched back to default settings (I only place the beater closer so it isn't 6" from the head).

[LimaBeans]

Limabeans, that's exactly what I'm doing, except point 5 is hard to realize. I have no prob in doing a fast & clean double. I get into trouble when playing continuous doubles. The strikes become less clean or I miss a strike from time to time. What I played until now was this, only not so fast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o0B7OlrGdQ&mode=related&search=

What about pedal settings? I thought heightening the board will gain more swivel. I then compensate by placing the beater closer. Now you can gain more momentum but the pedal feels harder, especially at the end of the strike. So I compensate by having the springs a bit looser (not fully loose).
Anyway, this didn't help me improving and I switched back to default settings (I only place the beater closer so it isn't 6" from the head).

The video looks like normal heel-up doubles...I'm not sure though. Watch some gospel drummers, it's amzing what they can achieve with normal heel-up.

The constant stream of notes sort of just evolved for me. One day I couldn't do it, the next I was just messing around and I somehow did it. Try doing 4's at first, and try incorporating the foot slide technique along with the constant release (actually move your foot back and forth while doing the constant release). It seems like my feet sort of just started doing that naturally.

For my pedal settings, I like the beater around 6" away from the head to reduce the chances of losing power in each stroke. Jojo Mayer likes to have his spring tension as loose as he possibly can, and so do I, but it can be done either way. It also helps if the ends of your beaters can adjust so that they lie flat on the surface of the bass head (like iron cobra beaters, I've tried it on different pedals). Experiment and you'll find what works best for you. Good luck!

[jazzin']

Limabeans, that's exactly what I'm doing, except point 5 is hard to realize. I have no prob in doing a fast & clean double. I get into trouble when playing continuous doubles. The strikes become less clean or I miss a strike from time to time. What I played until now was this, only not so fast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o0B7OlrGdQ&mode=related&search=



I dont really get it. If you can do fast clean doubles but have trouble doing them continuously then you simply, as wavelength said, need to practice them more. Do endurance stuff like this: one minute of alternating single strokes with doubles on the foot in between each hit. Then move onto doubles with the hands with doubles on the foot in between each hand double. Then move onto 3 strokes with hands (RRR FF LLL FF) then 4's (RRRR FF LLLL FF). Start it out slowly with clean technique because if you can't do it continuously you're technique is not as good as you think it might be. Slowly move it up from there. Once you feel you've mastered this (it could be anywhere from 3 to 6 months) move onto different combo's with different bass drum hits.
Wavelength wasn't being a smartass, he was just saying what most people don't want to do. Practice. Don't try more fancy techniques. Get the ones you've got down perfect. Simple.