i don't get this double bass technique (flat foot)

[drummingman]

i know there is a big thread on double bass drumming,but i don;t want this post to get lost and forgotten in that thread,so thats why im here.
here is a vid of the technique http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbhAepnLT3Y
i just don;t get this technique.i don;t know how to make it work properly,i've tried.can anyone help me out with this?
also,is this technique for anything other then just continues 16ths or 32nds? can it be broken up for broken figures? is it even a good technique for double bass? and is this the technique that mike mangini uses for double bass? if not does anyone know what mikes technique is? just wondering because he feet are awesome.
thanks

[drummingman]

i guess no one else gets it either eh?

[jonescrusher]

What's is it specifically you don't grasp? As the guy said, it's a motion like that when you twitch your leg when you're nervous - you don't lift your entire foot off the pedal. GEtting control over a twitching action like that is going to take weeks and months of work. You'll have to persevere. His drums sounded rubbish though...

[drummingman]

well first,is it worth working on this technique in the first place? is it any good? and second,when i try to do this on my pedals its just so strange, it does not work well for me.i don;t know if that is because i need to work on it more or if it is just because the technique is no good.

[Drum-Head]

Is it worth it? Is it any good? Look what Mike Mangini, Derek Roddy and others have done with it. That speaks for itself. However, don't expect any magical quick fixes from trying the technique. It's just like anything else - it takes time and a lot of work to master. When you say that you don't know whether the technique is no good or if you need more work. I'm afraid the answer is you need more work.

That being said, my advice is to not waste too much time asking about a foot technique and just sit behind your kit and play. Your body will dictate what works for it. Make sure though that you are sitting properly behind your kit, that your two feet use identical motions and that you are not hurting yourself.


Good luck,
Christopher.

[jonescrusher]

Exactly. A specialised technique like that is going to require a lot of dedicated work, you can't expect to be coordinated with it after an hour or so. To me it sounded like the guy demonstrating it on the video was pretty sloppy- he still needs time spent on it, so that would suggest it's a pretty advanced technique.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I hate flatfoot because it utilizes the hip flexor muscles which, when shortened, cause low back pain. It is also better for straight runs than for more intricate patterns.

At the WFD this year, I saw Mike Machine take every single record and all he did was good old heel-up motion from the ankle.

[Drum-Head]

Actually, I know Ramon (Bosticman) from another forum, he's a very nice guy and is a good drummer. Concerning the flat foot technique, he has pretty much got it down. I use to have a video of him playing a tune with his band which had some pretty sick parts with 16th notes at 230bpm on the kicks. It came out clean.

I hate flatfoot because it utilizes the hip flexor muscles which, when shortened, cause low back pain.

I did not know this. I don't understand the part about the muscles being shortened. Could you please explain?


Regards,
Christopher.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Actually, I know Ramon (Bosticman) from another forum, he's a very nice guy and is a good drummer. Concerning the flat foot technique, he has pretty much got it down. I use to have a video of him playing a tune with his band which had some pretty sick parts with 16th notes at 230bpm on the kicks. It came out clean.

Bostic is a really good drummer. I've seen his vids and he knows where it's at. In the end, which technique you use swivel, flatfoot or heel up/ankle is probably less important than how you apply it. I'm sure there are blazing guys with all of them. For me, it's heel-up ankle.

Regarding the hip flexors: Whenever you use a muscle, it contracts (shortens). The hip flexors (in particular the psoas major) originate on the vertebrae of the lower back and insert into the top of the thigh bone (hip area) This is the muscle group that most people activate when doing a sit-up improperly. Unlike the abs which curl the spine forward (spinal flexion) the hip flexors jackknife you up by pulling on the sacral area.

So now, with shortened hip flexors, the psaos muscle is constantly pulling on the lumbar spine. That equals pain in the low back. Most people will stretch the low back because that's what hurts but the cause lies in tight hips. (add tight hamstings and weak abs to that and you've got some debilitating pain)

The fact is that most people with back pain have extremely tight hips. This is even MORE evident in the physically active since there are many activities which shorten the hip flexors.

There are some physical rehab pros on this forum so maybe they can chime in on this.

[Drum-Head]

In the end, which technique you use swivel, flatfoot or heel up/ankle is probably less important than how you apply it. I'm sure there are blazing guys with all of them. For me, it's heel-up ankle.

This is partly why I said that it would be better to just sit down and let the body do the talking. I also play heel-up ankle, my technique is nothing special, nor am I very fast, but the way I play the pedal came quite naturally to me. Once it was there, I gathered information about it making sure I wasn't doing anything wrong (as in not hurting myself) and then worked with it. If you ask Derek Roddy and some other guys about this, they will say more or less the same thing: "You'll get where you want to be faster by sitting behind your kit and actually playing, than spending hours talking about it."

From my limited experience I have found this to be quite true. The simple message to guys getting all worked up over hows and whys is, try to feel the way you play more than think it. If that makes any sense...

[Tim Waterson]

i know there is a big thread on double bass drumming,but i don;t want this post to get lost and forgotten in that thread,so thats why im here.
here is a vid of the technique http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbhAepnLT3Y
i just don;t get this technique.i don;t know how to make it work properly,i've tried.can anyone help me out with this?
also,is this technique for anything other then just continues 16ths or 32nds? can it be broken up for broken figures? is it even a good technique for double bass? and is this the technique that mike mangini uses for double bass? if not does anyone know what mikes technique is? just wondering because he feet are awesome.
thanks
Bostic did a gtreat job on the video BUT
he forgot to mention he uses 2 diffreent motion for each foot
this is why a lot of drummers are confused....
Bostic uses a pumping motion that is similar to my HEEL DOWN strokes but with a raised heel I found by doing this you can turn doubles into singles.
I DO NOT use my hip flexor just my ankles
The nervous pumping motion done with his left foot seems to work well for endurace and certain tempos for these guys..
I have a student who can shiver with the hip flexors so fast its scary but he cant control the speed.
I know that some drummers can do this forever once the hip flexor becomes numb...
Mike uses his ankles and then the hip flexor for enduarance. bUT MIke can control the ankles for whatever he wants to do.
Hope this helps
Tim
www.twothreeonetwomusic.com

[Tutin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaMAHphUTnk

In this video Derek's explanation seems a lot different to Bostics, which has confused me.

Although he's using the hip-flexors, it's not really bouncing the foot in a nevrous way if you get me...

[Tim Waterson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaMAHphUTnk

In this video Derek's explanation seems a lot different to Bostics, which has confused me.

Although he's using the hip-flexors, it's not really bouncing the foot in a nevrous way if you get me...
Derek is just running on the pedals and he has VERY strong legs
Once you learn the transition from one technique into another and apply the motions your bass drum playing becomes almost effortless.

Tim
www.twothreeonetwomusic.com

[Tutin]

Derek is just running on the pedals and he has VERY strong legs
Once you learn the transition from one technique into another and apply the motions your bass drum playing becomes almost effortless.


Ah yeah I thought that was the case, just that he was calling it flat foot confused me.

[drummingman]

well to me it seems that just using the ankles for fast double bass is where its at.but doing it heels up makes my balance all off at this point.i really dont know how to correct this problem so i may just stay with my heels on the pedals doing ankle double bass.unless you show on your dvd how to really get good balance when both heels are up tim.because at this point i just dont see how that is possible.
and i have to believe that a person can develop power and major speed heels down if they jusy keep working at it and let the beater come back after it hits the drum.like useing the gladstone technique for the feet.

[z0mbie]

Yo mate, the flatfoot technique used by people like Derek Roddy and other metal drummers such as John Longstreth is realy quite simple. Your not using your ankle at all, it isnt about your feet or ankles the power comes from your legs or hip flexor muscles your ankle only acts as a pivot and driver, it is a transducer for the power being exerted by your legs (it passes the power from your legs to the pedal)

To build up speed you need to relax and get a click on, I practice for 10 minutes a day at around 160-180 bpm on my legs and then alternate to push/pull on my hands to build up speed and power.

The way I do it is to sit on your stool feet flat on the pedal and raize your heel off of the floor about 1-2" (remember this isnt heel-up technique). Start at a slow tempo and instead of just your ankles moving use your whole leg to drive the ball of your foot into the pedal (your basically stomping) but dont lift your foot off the pedal, just let it rebound and instead of raising your ankle for the next hit lift the back of your foot back up (heel) to the starting point of 1-2" without moving the ball of your foot.

To put it simply your twitching yout legs. Like when tou get nervous your leg bounces up and down, your doing that but using more of your hip and thigh muscles instead.

Its a difficult technique to get used to because your basically running on the sport but if you do any kind of running sport this technique is really good. I began (at speeds of 205bpm) to integrate my ankles because my legs would begin to tense up.

I would not recommend the flatfoot technique to new drummers to the double-bass because you need to develop your ankles to get past the 200bpm plateau. If you want to learn good double bass tachnique fast looke at George Kollias of Nile.

[Drum-Head]

But doing it heels up makes my balance all off at this point. I really dont know how to correct this problem so i may just stay with my heels on the pedals doing ankle double bass.

Like Jeff said, balance is very overlooked. It sounds like an easy answer but it really is just like anything else - practice. Everybody had to get used to being balanced when playing double pedal. It does take some time. Start of playing simple things, and slowly, you body will eventually get the hand of it.

And concerning heel down, you will NEVER have equivalent power to heel up no matter how much you work on it. It's physics.

All the best,
Christopher.

[Legacyrik]

I hate flatfoot because it utilizes the hip flexor muscles which, when shortened, cause low back pain. It is also better for straight runs than for more intricate patterns.

At the WFD this year, I saw Mike Machine take every single record and all he did was good old heel-up motion from the ankle.

flat foot pretty much is just heal up, with no leg involved other that holding it up in the air.... Or for that matter not much different than keeping your heal down.. The thing is to get to that point where the motion switches over to not using the leg takes a lot of time. much strength, endurance and coordination needs to be built up. I know, I'm in the same boat, it's slow coming but you just need to be patient.

If you are going to get fast speeds pretty much this motion or the heel / two motion I think. I would say the heel tow would come in to play more for accenting. My two cents.

[Legacyrik]

Yo mate, the flatfoot technique used by people like Derek Roddy and other metal drummers such as John Longstreth is realy quite simple. Your not using your ankle at all, it isnt about your feet or ankles the power comes from your legs or hip flexor muscles your ankle only acts as a pivot and driver, it is a transducer for the power being exerted by your legs (it passes the power from your legs to the pedal)

To build up speed you need to relax and get a click on, I practice for 10 minutes a day at around 160-180 bpm on my legs and then alternate to push/pull on my hands to build up speed and power.

The way I do it is to sit on your stool feet flat on the pedal and raize your heel off of the floor about 1-2" (remember this isnt heel-up technique). Start at a slow tempo and instead of just your ankles moving use your whole leg to drive the ball of your foot into the pedal (your basically stomping) but dont lift your foot off the pedal, just let it rebound and instead of raising your ankle for the next hit lift the back of your foot back up (heel) to the starting point of 1-2" without moving the ball of your foot.

To put it simply your twitching yout legs. Like when tou get nervous your leg bounces up and down, your doing that but using more of your hip and thigh muscles instead.

Its a difficult technique to get used to because your basically running on the sport but if you do any kind of running sport this technique is really good. I began (at speeds of 205bpm) to integrate my ankles because my legs would begin to tense up.

I would not recommend the flatfoot technique to new drummers to the double-bass because you need to develop your ankles to get past the 200bpm plateau. If you want to learn good double bass tachnique fast looke at George Kollias of Nile.

I don't agree at all, first off like you even say, after a certain speed these guys legs don't move, just the feet. The hip flexor is keeping the leg up though.

Even at slower speeds, it still feels more right to have the ankle control the motion to me, with the hip flexors assisting to keep the weight off the foot.

[k3ng]

AHAKS! So I'm not doing something wrong... this actually works for other drummers too! Sorry for off-topicness, but I just happened to develop the flatfoot usage automatically by myself. I don't use it often.. usually for endings when I'm smashing all my cymbals and banging all my toms... You know, noisy endings...

Anyways... you learn something new everyday.

[drummingman]

Like Jeff said, balance is very overlooked. It sounds like an easy answer but it really is just like anything else - practice. Everybody had to get used to being balanced when playing double pedal. It does take some time. Start of playing simple things, and slowly, you body will eventually get the hand of it.

And concerning heel down, you will NEVER have equivalent power to heel up no matter how much you work on it. It's physics.

All the best,
Christopher.

well when im doing foot to foot slow using legs i have no problem.but its when the heels are up using the ankles that i have the problem.
and,is it not just the same thing just using the ankles weather the heels are down or just lifted up a little off the pedal? i mean,its still just ankles with no leg. if it is then it seems that the power will be the same.as opposed to when you are doing heel up dropping your whole leg on the pedal,which is what i have no problem doing foot to foot at slower speeds.

[z0mbie]

Im just commemting on the way i play and what feels natural to me, maybe its the way i explained it cuz im not very good at explaining lol. And no Legacyrik the hip flexor muscles do not just 'suspend the leg' they are an integral part of the technique, your legs dont simply hang there in mid air or keep it up lol and you can get alot of power from this technique. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaMAHphUTnk thats the demonstration of it.

[Drum-Head]

well when im doing foot to foot slow using legs i have no problem.but its when the heels are up using the ankles that i have the problem.
and,is it not just the same thing just using the ankles weather the heels are down or just lifted up a little off the pedal? i mean,its still just ankles with no leg. if it is then it seems that the power will be the same.as opposed to when you are doing heel up dropping your whole leg on the pedal,which is what i have no problem doing foot to foot at slower speeds.

Now now, a bit of common sense. Think about it for a second. With heel up the whole weight of the legs come into action as opposed to only ankles when one plays heel down. Just sit behind your kit and compare the two. There is no way you are going to have as much power. And it's obvious that you will have a to deal with balance when you are heel up - that is what I've been going on about.

Choose a technique, and stick to it. Practice, practice and practice it until you get it.


Regards,
Christopher.

[z0mbie]

drummings all about individuality choose what feels right for you mate and stick too it, i was just saying what works for me Drum-Head is right, choose a technique (the one which feels best for you) and stick to it :)

[dea]

Learn them all. In order to achieve a wide variance in your dynamic range you must employ all methods to some extent.

Use your flat footed placement as your resting, or pulse point. Then change it up when the intensity of the song changes, or you need some accents, etc.

Note that heel-up has an, "amount of heel up" associated with it. What I mean is that I don't always have my heel all the way up, but rather I am dangling it off the back end of the pedal and then employing it only when I need a strong accent. You'll also want to employ sliding your foot forward as you go from flat to toe ( heel-up ) in order to gain even more variance with your accents. You can even follow up your forward foot slide, with a back slide for a lesser accent.

I must be brutally honest. This is not what people want to do. They want to stick with one way so that they can gain the most satisfaction. However, in the long run, your playing will sound a thousand times more musical.

Good luck!

[Drum-Head]

Learn them all. In order to achieve a wide variance in your dynamic range you must employ all methods to some extent.

I must admit I do not do this - I stick to my actual technique, but in the long run, you are right than one will have more tools to use if mastering many techniques. However, I do not advocate giving such advice to someone who is starting out and having all the issues our friend here is experiencing. In the beginning you need some foundation to build on top of. For instance, when you teach a beginner basic technique, you do not, right at the start, tell him to learn Moeller, Gladstone and Finger technique etc. You'll just teach him to use his wrists at first. Get my drift?

I say play what suits you, and once you've got that down, experiment some other ways if that's what you want/need. But you have to have some sort of base to build the rest upon.

Just my view of the picture.


Regards,
Christopher.

[Vixus]

The nervous twitch is how I actually learnt to kickdrum. I pretty much leave the ball of my foot on the pedal and just use my ankle. You can also do a toe press with the 'twitch.
It just takes lots of practice to build up speed... I'm no good at speed.

[DreamTheater4life]

I use to have a video of him playing a tune with his band which had some pretty sick parts with 16th notes at 230bpm on the kicks. It came out clean.


yea he put that video up himself on youtube. his youtube name is Bosticman71

Edit: Found it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbBXKJysNpA

[Drum-Head]

That's the one. Thank you for posting it.

No matter how many times I see Ramon, I just love the way he looks like he could just fall asleep behind the kit and keep going. Ramon IS what you call relaxed.


Regards,
Christopher.

[DreamTheater4life]

That's the one. Thank you for posting it.

No matter how many times I see Ramon, I just love the way he looks like he could just fall asleep behind the kit and keep going. Ramon IS what you call relaxed.


Regards,
Christopher.

No problem. Yea i totally agree. He's so relaxed behind the kit it's actually creepy at times hehe.

[drummingman]

Now now, a bit of common sense. Think about it for a second. With heel up the whole weight of the legs come into action as opposed to only ankles when one plays heel down. Just sit behind your kit and compare the two. There is no way you are going to have as much power. And it's obvious that you will have a to deal with balance when you are heel up - that is what I've been going on about.

Choose a technique, and stick to it. Practice, practice and practice it until you get it.


Regards,
Christopher.

i think that you missed what i was saying.i was saying that when im going slow im using my whole leg with the ankle dropping the leg,not just using the ankle.i know that in this way of playing i get more power,im trying to do the same as much as i can by just using the ankles heels down because using the smaller muscles will alow a person to go faster.its just like using the fingers instead of the wrist.

[drummingman]

i have asked about dereks flat foot technique amd he has told me that its just running on the pedals. so i have a question about this. my question is how in the world can he and you other guys that do this technique get up to like 220 just running on the pedals without feeling like your killing yourselves? it just seems like its a lot of work to have to pump your whole leg so fast. it would seem that using an ankle technique would not be so hard to do because you are using smaller muscles, kind of like using the fingers instead of just the wrists for speed.
i know that everyone is different but all of our bodies are basically the same. pumping the whole leg is just a lot of mass to move and it seems that is what keeps people that play the flat foot way from reaching very high speeds.
but, doing the flat foot has tons of power. so is the trade off with it? and how are you guys getting a good bounce off of the head doing the roddy flat foot being that you are having to plow the beater into the head so hard when you are playing so fast?
derek , bostic, please feel free to give your thoughts if you wpuld.

[Jeff Almeyda]

i have asked about dereks flat foot technique amd he has told me that its just running on the pedals. so i have a question about this. my question is how in the world can he and you other guys that do this technique get up to like 220 just running on the pedals without feeling like your killing yourselves? it just seems like its a lot of work to have to pump your whole leg so fast. it would seem that using an ankle technique would not be so hard to do because you are using smaller muscles, kind of like using the fingers instead of just the wrists for speed.
i know that everyone is different but all of our bodies are basically the same. pumping the whole leg is just a lot of mass to move and it seems that is what keeps people that play the flat foot way from reaching very high speeds.
but, doing the flat foot has tons of power. so is the trade off with it? and how are you guys getting a good bounce off of the head doing the roddy flat foot being that you are having to plow the beater into the head so hard when you are playing so fast?
derek , bostic, please feel free to give your thoughts if you wpuld.

Why don't you try playing these different techniques and make a decision for yourself? You really are asking WAY too many questions and trying to make a bigger deal out of it than it actually is.

Here's the hard truth: None of the guys that you talk about in this thread ever approached it the way you are doing right now. They just played for hours and hours and hours over years and they gradually built up their musculature so that they can do this stuff. You will never get around the fact that the essence of improvement is focused hard work.

If your balance bothers you while your heels go up then either you back or abs are weak. Playing heel down to avoid this is incorrect. The correct way is to do it and suffer through the soreness and aches and pains and build yourself up. Double bass is an athletic endeavor and it requires muscluar development.

I don't mean to be harsh or judgemental. I am just trying to point you in the right direction. If you wanted to get stronger you wouldn't look at the strongest guy in the world and say "which technique is he using to lift that bus?". You would say "Damn, I'm weak. I need to start lifting."

There are really only 4 ways to hit a pedal. Heel down, Heel up. Whole foot, and toe down while pumping the heel. (This is right out of Mike Mangini's mouth). Sit on a throne and try playing each one on the floor. Notice the balance shifts required. If you cannot easily pick BOTH feet off of the grund while comfortably remaining upright on your throne then your abs/low back are weak.


Good luck

[brennenlesser]

What's is it specifically you don't grasp? As the guy said, it's a motion like that when you twitch your leg when you're nervous - you don't lift your entire foot off the pedal. GEtting control over a twitching action like that is going to take weeks and months of work. You'll have to persevere. His drums sounded rubbish though...

His bass drum heads sounded finger tightened. which is good for micing situations with metal if EQed correctly