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NUTHA JASON
04-26-2007, 08:27 PM
new camera so why not?
here's how to play 50 ways to leave your lover and get from the chorus back to the verse.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1096241095856108602&hl=en-GB

and just for fun my first footage with the camera... a sound check with a 'broadway' jam last weekend in leytonstone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsWACVi-go&eurl=

Trommur
04-26-2007, 08:52 PM
dude, that was awesome! Really like your demonstrating technique. I really feel you as a teacher very good.

Joe

shuffle
04-26-2007, 09:09 PM
Thanks Nutha.

Unfortunatly, my streaming stops at 5:41.. Right after your crash hit on the 1... :)

I did work on that beat on numerous occasions but I never really invested the required energy to reach a good level at it. May be I will, now. I do agree with you that a big part of the challenge is to gracefully flow between each song's sections.

I've read that Paul Simon mentionned that he never played with a drummer who managed to reach the perfect feel of the original studio version

That's a big sound that you have there on your TD-8.

Thanks again for the clip

TitanSound
04-26-2007, 09:18 PM
Good stuff Jason. Love the way you demonstrate the "broken record" technique. Just keep repeating and all will become clear!

Hopefully more on the way?

NUTHA JASON
04-26-2007, 09:24 PM
thanks everyone.

yes titan. if i find the time i would like to shoot something new every week or two.

j

gr82bagn
04-26-2007, 09:26 PM
Thanks for that explanation on the flam part I USE to play as a buzz roll. Very cool.

NUTHA JASON
04-26-2007, 10:07 PM
the funny thing is that i only learned that part yesterday. my band leader just dropped 50 ways onto me last weekend and i duffed up the song a lot so i have been working on it and i wasn't satisfied with the way i had learned it.

j

driver
04-26-2007, 10:21 PM
Really really good. I hope you make more drumming videos covering all sorts of subjects for the future cos that was so easy to watch and enjoyable

Mapex589
04-26-2007, 10:21 PM
Nutha - that is cool of you to cover this. I learned the song by working out of the Rick Latham book which only covers the main groove so I was kind of on my own (I do have a teacher mind you) for figuring out the rest of the song. I was sooo excited when I finally nailed the main groove at the songs original tempo but had the "wind taken out of my sails" so to speak when I got to the transition. I have it now, but it took me quite a while to get that part down and I know this video will help those who are trying to learn this song. And what drummer doesn't want to learn that song? Great job on the video!!

drumminjohn
04-26-2007, 10:34 PM
Hah it was cool to hear you talk, accents rule.. I loved the soundcheck, that was a very Bonham-esque ending

NUTHA JASON
04-26-2007, 10:41 PM
yeah DJ i was also as surprised when i heard Dogbreath on video showing us his super kit. but funnily enough i wasn't at all surprised at bernhard's accent when i met him. he sounds what i thought he sounds like.

j

KzSgDrummer
04-27-2007, 06:59 AM
This was a great video, BUT

You're not playing 50 ways right. The snare hits in beats one and two should be on:

beat 1 -- "and"
beat 2 -- "e"

You are playing them on the "a" of 1 and the "and" of 2. The correct pattern has the hihat foot chick playing at the same time as the bass drum on 1 of each measure. I'll try to visualize the first two beats for you, with the uppercase "x" meaning hihat played with the hand:

xXSx XSX
B________b B


Hope that makes sense!

NUTHA JASON
04-27-2007, 02:38 PM
i disagree. what i play matches the track exactly. maybe i should have included a bit of me playing along with paul simon and gadd. just remember that in the studio version there is a overlaid tambourine track

j

fusssion
04-27-2007, 02:47 PM
Jason,
Nice job...

Is that your kit on the "on broadway" run through? I didn't think you had a 'white' kit

NUTHA JASON
04-27-2007, 03:05 PM
lol.its my new camera. it has an infrared mode so that it still focuses in low light - like stage situations. unfortunately and ironically infra red cannot 'see' red. this is a lion's view of my kit. all slightly grey and in contrast. believe me she's as red as my grandfather's nose. how does the new hihat sound?

j

Saiya-jin
04-27-2007, 03:37 PM
Good stuff J!

It's nice to know you're not just making up all your advice =)

It would be very cool if you put up vid's every week or so

toxegendrummer
04-27-2007, 04:00 PM
very good explanation of 50 ways...i like the fact that even you made mistakes on it so we know which parts that are tricky for everyone kinda thing...

finnhiggins
04-27-2007, 05:26 PM
i disagree. what i play matches the track exactly. maybe i should have included a bit of me playing along with paul simon and gadd. just remember that in the studio version there is a overlaid tambourine track

j

http://www.drummerworld.com/Drumclinic/stevegadd50ways.html

Both the notation and the video above disagree, J. The sentiment in putting the video together is great, but given that Gadd already has a video explaining this particular pattern I think it would be best left to him to explain. Based on the above it appears KzSgDrummer's post is exactly right in terms of his corrections, I'll have to check relative to the original recording too but if I had to choose between Gadd getting his groove wrong on his video or you on yours... I hope you won't mind if I choose Gadd as being more likely to get it right?

rendezvous_drummer
04-27-2007, 05:52 PM
Hey Nutha,
You covered this VERY WELL. A bunch of my questions and concerns were answered by this video. I had no idea the snare part was a flam-a-diddle haha. And the part where you were singing the song, then went eghhhh was hilarious haha! Keep them videos coming!!

fourstringdrums
04-27-2007, 05:59 PM
Hey Nutha,
You covered this VERY WELL. A bunch of my questions and concerns were answered by this video. I had no idea the snare part was a flam-a-diddle haha. And the part where you were singing the song, then went eghhhh was hilarious haha! Keep them videos coming!!

How can you say he covered it well when it's already been pointed out that it's wrong?

I have to add in my $.02 that I found the voice shouting off the count distracting from the groove. Also the hi-hat tone was so quiet to me that you don't quite hear or feel the hi-hat pulse which is to me, the biggest part to that groove.

NUTHA JASON
04-27-2007, 06:24 PM
sigh. i expected nothing less.

i've never been happy about that transcription though. mainly because the tom parts aren't there properly. i based my lesson on the up close description plus the live recording that doesn't have the tambourine in the way.
if you watch the up close version he opens the hat twice the first time around and once the second time on each cycle which i don't do but is also not indicated in the script but then later in the video he changes the hat pattern again when he isolates it and opens it twice each round (in fact it seems that he does it whenever he feels like)... in other words he has several ways of playing the groove and it still sounds the same. perhaps i'm guilty of choosing just one way (opening the hat twice) and making that my way of playing - and teaching -the groove

don't take my word for it watch the video carefully:

http://www.drummerworld.com/Drumclinic/stevegadd50ways.html

no doubt some of you will disagree with me...i don't really care anymore. i know a lot of guys already have taken something good from this and that's all that counts to me.

j

Flamacue
04-27-2007, 06:37 PM
Although I certainly respect someone that can dissect a beat down to every detail, I personally am not that kind of drummer.

It's situations like this that make me sure I'll always be an improvisational drummer. Steve Gadd makes a beat like this look so easy, simply because it's something that he pulsed out...concocted, what have you. For me to copy that exact beat, note for note would take hours of play and replay…where if I improvise my way through and give it my own pulse, I can own that, and move on to other songs. So what if I missed a BD beat, or forgot to close the hihat at the right time.


I did enjoy the video's though...

NUTHA JASON
04-27-2007, 06:40 PM
thanks flam. and i agree. in the end what i am playing looks right to me, feels right to me, makes sense to me, and (electric drum pad sounds aside) sounds right to me ... ipso facto ... i'm playing 50 ways to leave your lover (probably even at my gig tonight) and i am enjoying it.

if some guys want to split hairs ...

j

jazzgregg
04-27-2007, 06:45 PM
thanks flam. and i agree. in the end what i am playing looks right to me, feels right to me, makes sense to me, and (electric drum pad sounds aside) sounds right to me ... ipso facto ... i'm playing 50 ways to leave your lover (probably even at my gig tonight) and i am enjoying it.

if some guys want to split hairs ...

j

In all fairness J, I don't think anyone is trying to 'split hairs', they are just taking issue with this statement of yours, claiming it's the way to play it:
here's how to play 50 ways to leave your lover

In future, you might want to try saying things like 'this is my take on it' or 'here's how I play it' to avoid this, rather than saying you've explained it. Just some advice.

Flamacue, I'm with you.

G

fourstringdrums
04-27-2007, 06:52 PM
thanks flam. and i agree. in the end what i am playing looks right to me, feels right to me, makes sense to me, and (electric drum pad sounds aside) sounds right to me ... ipso facto ... i'm playing 50 ways to leave your lover (probably even at my gig tonight) and i am enjoying it.

if some guys want to split hairs ...

j

How is wanting the backbeat placed in the proper spot splitting hairs? It completely changes the feel of the groove. That's my issue with it. The rolls and flams, that's different. I'm sure Gadd doesn't play it exactly the same every time either, but he atleast gets the back bone of the groove right.

I'm sorry J but that thinking of "If it feels and sound right to me, then it can't be wrong" way of thinking is what's wrong. You as a band member and a teacher should know that you have to play what feels right for the SONG, not yourself, and especially with a cover tune, especially with a song like this where the grooves MAKES the song, you have to play it as it is. Like I said, the rolls and flams, maybe not so much, but the main groove, definately.

I'll be honest, the fact that you're a teacher, but think some of these things, concerns me alittle bit. Hopefully you're not teaching your students that they should ignore the foundation of a song and displace beats wherever they feel like it, even if it throws off the feel.

NUTHA JASON
04-27-2007, 06:54 PM
i just think that sometimes we take semantics and such too far on this forum. from now on i will never again type IMO or IMHO on a post. we should all take it for granted that when someone says something here it is their opinion or 'take' on it.

but as my previous post points out even steve doesn't stick to the script. so his way also isn't nailed down like a butterfly in a museum either.

there must be ...
50 ways to play paul simon
50 ways to play paul simon
just accent the hat matt
its on the snare claire
watch the meter peter
just listen to me
your bass is wrong son
you need to relax max
tighten the head fred
the lesson is free

.........

jonescrusher
04-27-2007, 06:54 PM
My interpretation, seems to line up well to the record, no flam paradiddles:

Edit - just read Jason's last post, very good point. Unless you're going to transcribe the whole tune note perfect, any excerpt should only be considered 'in the style of'....

NUTHA JASON
04-27-2007, 06:57 PM
[QUOTE][I'm sorry J but that thinking of "If it feels and sound right to me, then it can't be wrong" way of thinking is what's wrong. You as a band member and a teacher should know that you have to play what feels right for the SONG, not yourself, and especially with a cover tune, especially with a song like this where the grooves MAKES the song, you have to play it as it is. Like I said, the rolls and flams, maybe not so much, but the main groove, definately.

I'll be honest, the fact that you're a teacher, but think some of these things, concerns me alittle bit. Hopefully you're not teaching your students that they should ignore the foundation of a song and displace beats wherever they feel like it, even if it throws off the feel./QUOTE]

this is your opinion hey.

whatever

fourstringdrums
04-27-2007, 07:01 PM
[quote][I'm sorry J but that thinking of "If it feels and sound right to me, then it can't be wrong" way of thinking is what's wrong. You as a band member and a teacher should know that you have to play what feels right for the SONG, not yourself, and especially with a cover tune, especially with a song like this where the grooves MAKES the song, you have to play it as it is. Like I said, the rolls and flams, maybe not so much, but the main groove, definately.

I'll be honest, the fact that you're a teacher, but think some of these things, concerns me alittle bit. Hopefully you're not teaching your students that they should ignore the foundation of a song and displace beats wherever they feel like it, even if it throws off the feel./QUOTE]

this is your opinion hey.

whatever

Whatever.

Professional attitude Jason.

It seems to me like there are alot more people around here lately more willing to disregard others opinions and not be open minded to that fact they may be doing something incorrectly or doing it in a way that may be harmful to others, ESPECIALLY if they're a teacher.

Flamacue
04-27-2007, 07:04 PM
I'll be honest, the fact that you're a teacher, but think some of these things, concerns me alittle bit. Hopefully you're not teaching your students that they should ignore the foundation of a song and displace beats wherever they feel like it, even if it throws off the feel.


Wow...that's a little over cynical...I appreciate over critical, but to fault him as a teacher is unfair to say the least. You're taking a few statements from a video and a thread, and applying it against the core of all of his teaching concepts. Is it not enough to be more accurate than he, you have to rub someone’s face all through it too?

I’ll be honest with you, if it weren’t for the drums this song wouldn’t have any grove what so ever. I personally found the beat to work just fine. If it’s off enough that someone with your ear is able dismantle its flaws, while the audience listening to the song still gets down and has a great time…I’ll take that every day. Because I fail to see how he’s broken the groove in such a way to destroy the song, as you implied.…

fourstringdrums
04-27-2007, 07:06 PM
Wow...that's a little over cynical...I appreciate over critical, but to fault him as a teacher is unfair to say the least. You're taking a few statements from a video and a thread, and applying it against the core of all of his teaching concepts. Is it not enough to be more accurate than he, you have to rub someone’s face all through it too?

I’ll be honest with you, if it weren’t for the drums this song wouldn’t have any grove what so ever. I personally found the beat to work just fine. If it’s off enough that someone with your ear is able dismantle its flaws, while the audience listening to the song still gets down and has a great time…I’ll take that every day. Because I fail to see how he’s broken the groove in such a way to destroy the song, as you implied.…

Again, it's all personal opinion and as far as his teaching goes, he hasn't demonstrated alot of things that I've agreed with, which after a while has given me a certain impression of himself as a teacher.

Again, personal opinion.

Flamacue
04-27-2007, 07:14 PM
Again, it's all personal opinion and as far as his teaching goes, he hasn't demonstrated alot of things that I've agreed with, which after a while has given me a certain impression of himself as a teacher.

Again, personal opinion.


Grant it, you probably know more about him from many posts I've never read, I'm new here, but it did seem a bit aggressive of you to go at him like this. He's offering free advice for anyone that wants to take it...and honing up his teaching skills to boot. Nothing wrong with that. Anything brought in here should be garnered with grains of salt, in that he's allowed a bit of inaccuracy and I’ll presume that no is perfect. You too are well within your rights to try to clear up what you consider inaccurate info. Just don’t attack his efforts. I for one appreciate both of your efforts tremendously…willing to discuss this information openly in an effort to provide instruction to anyone listening, and there are several people taking all of this in.

Thank you.

intooder
04-27-2007, 09:15 PM
Grant it, you probably know more about him from many posts I've never read, I'm new here, but it did seem a bit aggressive of you to go at him like this. He's offering free advice for anyone that wants to take it...and honing up his teaching skills to boot. Nothing wrong with that. Anything brought in here should be garnered with grains of salt, in that he's allowed a bit of inaccuracy and I’ll presume that no is perfect.
I whole heartedly agree!

Please, can we give Jason a break here. The guy just posted an educational video to help out with the song. These negative remarks are totally counter-productive. If you really think most people on here are going to need that 100% precision (even Gadd knows not, what that is!), maybe you oughta post a vid that demonstrates exactly that.

Nice videos, J. Keep 'em coming.

bromasi
04-27-2007, 09:30 PM
Just makes you think what a great drummer Steve Gadd is, to come with this lick in the studio just amazing. Thanks for the video, good work, back to the practice pad.

KzSgDrummer
04-28-2007, 01:10 AM
Oye vey -- I didn't mean to light a match that would burn the whole place down!! I just wanted to add some light to the matter..

having watched the the Up Close excerpt lots of times, I can say with 100% confidence that Gadd is hitting the snare on the "+" and "e" of beats 1 and 2, respectively, never on the "a" and "+"

Jason, if it works for you, and sounds just like it, then hey why the heck not go for it. But as far as I'm concerned, there's one and only one pattern that can be called the "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" groove, and what you demonstrated in your video was not exactly it. If you haven't learned it "my" way then I'd reccomend you do, if for nothing else than to get it down, but also I imagine you can get creative with the two -- switch them up back and forth while playing and see if any cool new feels or patterns come about.. heck I think I might try this myself!

drummerchick435
04-28-2007, 01:19 AM
Nice vid, J! Whenever I'm in the UK could I have a lesson from you?

theduke86
04-28-2007, 01:39 AM
Hey J,
Sorry to "split hairs", but that's definetly not what Gadd's playing. The beat actually sounds good, in my opinion, but it's not Gadd. What jonescrusher posted is indeed the beat. I'm listening to a slowed-down version of it right now on Transcribe! and he is correct. However, if you were to play this beat in a live situation, it would be considered a reasonable facsimile of Gadd's playing on this track, and it would probably pass muster. It doesn't sound bad at all.
To be perfectly honest, I'm a little bit disconcerted about the attitude though... the one unifying trait of the great teachers (whether they be saxophone players, piano players or drummers) that I've studied under is that they all remain openminded and are willing to admit fallibillity when they are factually incorrect. Which happens to all of us.. we're all human, right? Best of luck getting your teaching chops together, J.

rendezvous_drummer
04-28-2007, 01:52 AM
How can you say he covered it well when it's already been pointed out that it's wrong?

I have to add in my $.02 that I found the voice shouting off the count distracting from the groove. Also the hi-hat tone was so quiet to me that you don't quite hear or feel the hi-hat pulse which is to me, the biggest part to that groove.

Well if it isn't right on, then it sounds very near to it. I looked at Jonescrusher's transcript but cannot make it out... I don't know how to read music. I don't understand what everyone that disagrees with Nutha's video is saying. It sounds pretty damn on. What is Nutha playing (or not playing) that Gadd does or doesn't?

http://www.drummerworld.com/Drumclinic/pics/stevegaddfifty.jpg

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 04:22 AM
Well if it isn't right on, then it sounds very near to it. I looked at Jonescrusher's transcript but cannot make it out... I don't know how to read music. I don't understand what everyone that disagrees with Nutha's video is saying. It sounds pretty damn on. What is Nutha playing (or not playing) that Gadd does or doesn't?

http://www.drummerworld.com/Drumclinic/pics/stevegaddfifty.jpg

Here's the best I can do:

Now, to explain:

IN BLUE: The snare drums. Jason clearly has these in the wrong place, as has been explained by a few posters on this thread. It's not that J is playing a variation on the groove, he's playing something that Gadd NEVER plays at any point on that Up Close video clip. Quite simply, Gadd is not playing the snares in those positions in the bar. They're wrong.

IN YELLOW: A bit more detail, with notes. The reason WHY the snares are in the wrong place is visible right at the start of the bar. You can see, if you look, that when Gadd plays the pedaled hi-hat towards the start of the bar (which J is right, he doesn't always do - sometimes he just does it on the "a" of 1) he always plays it on the "1" - in unison with the bass drum, not after it.

Because J is playing the pattern in a linear fashion, with the hi-hat pedaled AFTER the bass drum, this is displacing the hi-hat and snare hits back by a 16th. This is incorrect. Gadd never does it at any point during the Up Close video - it's not a transcription of a different bar, it's just not what Gadd is playing on that video at any point.

J is also missing the leading 16th on the bass drum each time around on the "3" of the bar, he's instead just playing a single hit as far as I can tell. Gadd has a double stroke here, with the bass drum also on the "a" of two.

Other problems... J is missing a hi-hat note after the snare drum in the second beat. And I don't think that flam/paradiddle sticking is right either, there's clearly some 32nd notes happening in that little fill that aren't fitting with how J's playing it on the video.

I think that basically it for problems with the part.

J is correct, however, that the Drummerworld transcription does seem to be missing the tom hit in unison with the bass drum, and it doesn't include the first pedaled hi-hat in the bar (on the "1" in the video). But in terms of the core ingredients of the groove the DW transcription is more accurate than J's video. I'm not sure anybody has got the little flam/32nd thing in the first bar transcribed accurately though, including me.

EDIT: Error correction goes here!

I haven't changed the original post so that Jason's response will still make sense, but he rightfully pointed out that I'd missed hearing his leading 16th bass drum notes on the "a" of two in each bar. I'll own up to that, and I've attached a corrected transcription of his performance of the groove at the bottom of this post. All the other (more major) problems described above still stand.

Class A Drummer
04-28-2007, 04:23 AM
Good stuff Jason but I learned it a little differently.

First, i have never heard of using a flam at the beggining. I just play what is written in my Gadd book, RRLL.

The other thing differently we do is, that i add a left foot on the 1 instead of a naked bass hit. I prefer doing this because not only is it written like that in the book, i feel it gives a slightly nicer sound and a nice push.

Either way you spin it, they both work and sound great, and i feel it is important to play your way and with you own style so i am all for the fact that we play it differently.

Edit- i see Jonescrusher's transcription is the exact thing i play. That is what im talking about.

rendezvous_drummer
04-28-2007, 04:38 AM
Wow Finnhiggins, that's very detailed. Thanks for that. Now I see what you guys are talking about in comparison of Gadd's and Nutha Jason's video. I now see how the two are different in some parts. Mind you, Nutha Jason's version doesn't sound bad, and for the short time he has had to learn it, it's fairly decent, but yeah, I can now see the differences. And hey, I CAN read some music haha.

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 04:44 AM
Good stuff Jason but I learned it a little differently.

First, i have never heard of using a flam at the beggining. I just play what is written in my Gadd book, RRLL.


I'm a little interested by this, I'm not sure ANYBODY has got this 100% right yet. J is certainly not correct because there are definitely more than just a flam and some 16ths in there - there's definitely 32nds happening. But I don't think just playing RRLLRL is right either - watch the "Up close" video and you'll see Gadd throws both sticks down together at that point. So I'm 99% sure that J is right about there being a flam, but I think he's just got the phrase that's being flammed a bit wrong. On that one I don't blame him, it's tricky. My transcription was my best guess, but I'm open to being corrected as it still doesn't quite seem right.

fourstringdrums
04-28-2007, 04:58 AM
Either way you spin it, they both work and sound great, and i feel it is important to play your way and with you own style so i am all for the fact that we play it differently.


When you're talking about playing a groove that is KEY to a song, you have to play it as is unless any variation is MINOR. Playing it "your way" if it is a pretty large variation as J's seems to be will be playing something different that is NOT the groove to the song.

rendezvous_drummer
04-28-2007, 05:07 AM
Does anyone know where I can find the entire song "50 ways to leave your lover"? I am thinking about playing this at my audition because I've been practicing this piece all day and have shown some improvement for sure, but I need the music to play along to. Any help?

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 07:12 AM
Does anyone know where I can find the entire song "50 ways to leave your lover"? I am thinking about playing this at my audition because I've been practicing this piece all day and have shown some improvement for sure, but I need the music to play along to. Any help?

Since it's quite a repetitive song I don't think you'll find many note-for-note transcriptions out there, most people will just cover the main groove as it's the main interesting feature of the tune for drummers. The best learning experience you could take from it would be to use it as an exercise in chart-writing for yourself, and actually count out all the bars of the verses and choruses to get the structure and then have a crack at learning to transcribe the chorus groove.

For me, the whole listen-transcribe-understand-learn process is one of the most important things you can develop as a drummer. If you get that skill to a high level then there's literally no limits to what you can teach yourself to do, and all you need to reach a higher level is an interest in music and some expert instruction on technique, touch and ergonomics.

I'm not sure that being spoon-fed particular songs or grooves is actually very helpful for somebody trying to learn the drums. You know the adage - teach a man to fish, rather than giving him a fish... You'd learn more by developing transcribing and basic notation skills - at least to the level of understanding, if not sight-reading. If you have any questions about how to approach learning those skills then I'd be overjoyed to answer - but another thread might be the appropriate venue if you want to start one!

rendezvous_drummer
04-28-2007, 07:22 AM
I was looking for the actual music.

I agree though. It is very important fer a drummer to listen to the music, work it out by transcribing it, and then performing it. It's what I always used to do when I played the Guitar, and will do it for most songs fer drumming too.


EDIT: found it :-D

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 07:29 AM
EDIT: found it :-D

Score! Want to post a link so we can compare-and-contrast with the transcriptions in the thread so far?

rendezvous_drummer
04-28-2007, 07:32 AM
Well, I downloaded it, so I just have to find a way to put it onto a website then I can post it...any help?

rendezvous_drummer
04-28-2007, 07:44 AM
What's your email Finnhiggins. I can send the track to you.

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 07:48 AM
Well, I downloaded it, so I just have to find a way to put it onto a website then I can post it...any help?

If it's a download of a scan from an official source that'd be dodgy in copyright terms, so I won't volunteer. If it's somebody's home-made transcription that hasn't been released for commercial purposes then I'll host it, though.

Oh, and for an email... put a dot between my first name and surname and tack "@gmail.com" on the end...

rendezvous_drummer
04-28-2007, 08:11 AM
Ahhh. You see I downloaded it off of Limewire, so I guess that's not wise!

NUTHA JASON
04-28-2007, 10:00 AM
i have not even read all the replies from last night but finns little transcription on 'my' 50 ways is wrong ...and that says it all to me ...

i am playing two bass beats finn ... check your hearing. and as already stated gadd himself does not play this transcription exactly in his video. plus as i have said a lot of times this idea of the groove it something i'm basing on two sources:

up close video

and

a live paul simon concert

and i have got to say once again that that transcription you posted is flawed. the first hat stroke and the bass drum DO NOT FALL together on the up close video. the more i watch that demo and look at the transcription from DW the more i realise that it is wrong.

i would be very interested if any of the naysayers on this thread would put up a video lesson showing me and all of us the correct way to play this beat.

Jon Cable
04-28-2007, 10:31 AM
I get very concerned about threads like this; the way ppl start to criticise and pull stuff apart upsets me. I've just had all this with a thread I started, we're all drummers and Jason helped me out with something earlier and I really appreciate it.
I haven't even looked at the video, I could play 50 ways better than Gadd anyday so I dont need the tuition, hes just an old guy whos been lucky!! Sandy Nelson, THAT was a proper drummer!!
My point is; Jason has gone to the trouble of doin this vid for all of us, and we should thank him OR post our own stuff so ppl can beat up on us!!! We're a community, misunderstood and maligned but we should be family!!
If you cant say something nice then dont say nuffing!! Oh yeah; I thought Bonham was overrated too - if ya wanna listen to where he got his 'original ideas' from, check out Bobby Elliot drummer with the Hollies! Hope everyone still loves me??? LMBFAO!!

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 10:40 AM
i am playing two bass beats finn ... check your hearing. and as already stated gadd himself does not play this transcription exactly in his video. plus as i have said a lot of times this idea of the groove it something i'm basing on two sources:


I'll retract that first point, I checked again with headphones rather than speakers and yes, you're right, you are playing the leading 16th on the bass drum. My apologies. It's just a lot quieter dynamically than the note after it, which is OK if you're after that particular effect.


and i have got to say once again that that transcription you posted is flawed. the first hat stroke and the bass drum DO NOT FALL together on the up close video. the more i watch that demo and look at the transcription from DW the more i realise that it is wrong.


Sorry J, I'm not backing down on this. You are wrong. While I was wrong in my transcription in that I omitted two notes that you played, you are wrong in that you have displaced an entire section of the groove and omitted a hi-hat note.

As for the "Gadd varies what he plays"... on that video he plays ONE variation, which is that he occasionally (seemingly at his discretion) omits the first pedalled hi-hat note in the bar. Everything else is consistently identical. The only change when he switches to the solo demonstration of the hi-hat and bass drum is that he stops occasionally omitting that note.


i would be very interested if any of the naysayers on this thread would put up a video lesson showing me and all of us the correct way to play this beat.

J, I would love to. Unfortunately I don't have a camcorder and can't drum on anything other than rubber pads (non-electronic) at home right now. So you'll have to settle for me putting my time correcting you into providing transcriptions. I will happily go back and correct my two transcriptions to insert those two missing bass drum notes that I failed to hear on your recording. But you are wrong on every other issue - you HAVE displaced the hi-hats and snare by a 16th, the hi-hat pedal does NOT fall directly after the bass drum. Ever. And that flam paradiddle thing is very dubious too.

Here's the giveaway: Watch the Up Close video. Watch Gadd's left hand on the hi-hat. You'll notice in the 2nd beat of the bar he plays this:

LRLFF

I.e, Hi-hat, snare, hi-hat, bass drum, bass drum. The second bass drum lands on the three, right?

In your transcription you are missing the second hi-hat note on the left hand. The reason for this is that THERE IS NO SPACE FOR IT. The reason there is no space is that you have added an extra note earlier, and displaced the entire pattern by a 16th.

Seriously. Watch for that last hi-hat note before the bass drum on the three, if you understand what's happening there you'll see the thread to pull that will unravel the whole problem. But for now I'll spend 30 more minutes trying to make that audio file to convince you, plus looping some of that Up Close stuff so you can actually hear him playing the first two beats more clearly.

Honestly, this isn't an attack on you. You're just wrong, and you're making statements of absolute fact that are incorrect. If you'd called this "Jamming in the style of 50 ways" or something like that I'd be right with you, as it's a good attempt at the general structure of the groove. But note-for-note, it's very wrong in some important ways: for a start you've got every single left hand hi-hat note in the wrong place in the bar. Not a single one of them is correct. For a start you're only playing two in each bar. There are three. And the two you ARE playing are in the positions that the snare drum should be.

Jon Cable
04-28-2007, 11:13 AM
I'll retract that first point, I checked again with headphones rather than speakers and yes, you're right, you are playing the leading 16th on the bass drum. My apologies. It's just a lot quieter dynamically than the note after it, which is OK if you're after that particular effect.



Sorry J, I'm not backing down on this. You are wrong. While I was wrong in my transcription in that I omitted two notes that you played, you are wrong in that you have displaced an entire section of the groove and omitted a hi-hat note.

As for the "Gadd varies what he plays"... on that video he plays ONE variation, which is that he occasionally (seemingly at his discretion) omits the first pedalled hi-hat note in the bar. Everything else is consistently identical. The only change when he switches to the solo demonstration of the hi-hat and bass drum is that he stops occasionally omitting that note.



J, I would love to. Unfortunately I don't have a camcorder and can't drum on anything other than rubber pads (non-electronic) at home right now. So you'll have to settle for me putting my time correcting you into providing transcriptions. I will happily go back and correct my two transcriptions to insert those two missing bass drum notes that I failed to hear on your recording. But you are wrong on every other issue - you HAVE displaced the hi-hats and snare by a 16th, the hi-hat pedal does NOT fall directly after the bass drum. Ever. And that flam paradiddle thing is very dubious too.

Here's the giveaway: Watch the Up Close video. Watch Gadd's left hand on the hi-hat. You'll notice in the 2nd beat of the bar he plays this:

LRLFF

I.e, Hi-hat, snare, hi-hat, bass drum, bass drum. The second bass drum lands on the three, right?

In your transcription you are missing the second hi-hat note on the left hand. The reason for this is that THERE IS NO SPACE FOR IT. The reason there is no space is that you have added an extra note earlier, and displaced the entire pattern by a 16th.

Seriously. Watch for that last hi-hat note before the bass drum on the three, if you understand what's happening there you'll see the thread to pull that will unravel the whole problem. But for now I'll spend 30 more minutes trying to make that audio file to convince you, plus looping some of that Up Close stuff so you can actually hear him playing the first two beats more clearly.

Honestly, this isn't an attack on you. You're just wrong, and you're making statements of absolute fact that are incorrect. If you'd called this "Jamming in the style of 50 ways" or something like that I'd be right with you, as it's a good attempt at the general structure of the groove. But note-for-note, it's very wrong in some important ways: for a start you've got every single left hand hi-hat note in the wrong place in the bar. Not a single one of them is correct. For a start you're only playing two in each bar. There are three. And the two you ARE playing are in the positions that the snare drum should be.
I'm sorry, but I'm in a coma. Buy a drum kit and hit it very hard for a long time, its called 'Having Fun Drumming'. Lots of love, Jon

Jon Cable
04-28-2007, 12:01 PM
In fact, Can you play it like Gadd? If so then show us, if not....enough already. I learnt by playing along with records as a kid, I dont know what a 'flamaradiddle' is, and I dont care. I broke every bone in my right hand some years ago and consider myself very lucky to be able to play at all. As I've already stated; when I had a problem and posted on here, Jason was the only one who replied and sorted it out for me,! He plays 50 ways very, very well and explains it clearly, and that should be enough.
I'm gonna post a video of me playing like Buddy on crystal meth and then wait for the criticisms; 'Ah, but Buddy would have sweated more, and probably thrown the bearded trombonist off the bus....'
Drummers are for life, not just Xmas...too many blows to the head....

Ufipman!
04-28-2007, 12:38 PM
I think I understand the argument here. Have you guys seen this? Watch and learn my friends...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZLLYEzKE8

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 12:39 PM
Jon Cable, come back when you can discuss a subject like an adult.

Jason - here's my results on this one.

What I've done here is taken the first two bars you play on your video, and lined them up to the first two bars that Gadd plays on the Up Close video. Neither video changes the placement of these notes significantly, so this isn't about which loop I picked - I just picked the first to make the experiment easier to replicate if anybody else wants to give it a shot.

I've done some clever stuff to put your playing in time with Gadd - he pushes and pulls a little inside the bar and your tempos are slightly different, so the parts won't line up without a bit of work. But I've done nothing to change the order or position of the notes in the bar.

The first thing you will hear is two repetitions of the Gadd groove in your right ear. After that, your version fades in on the left channel. Listen to the snare drums - can you hear the one in the right ear falling, consistently, a 16th note before the electronic ones in the left ear? Listen with headphones, it's very, very clear.

I'm not trying to attack you personally here, but Jason you really need to review the tone you've taken on this thread: You are saying very specifically that other people have their facts wrong and that you are playing something that fits, note-for-note, over the Gadd "Up Close" video version:

i disagree. what i play matches the track exactly. maybe i should have included a bit of me playing along with paul simon and gadd. just remember that in the studio version there is a overlaid tambourine track

You're also making very strong assertions that me, Jonescrusher, the guy who transcribed the groove for Class A's book AND the guy who transcribed the version posted on Drummerworld are ALL wrong about our transcriptions.

and i have got to say once again that that transcription you posted is flawed. the first hat stroke and the bass drum DO NOT FALL together on the up close video. the more i watch that demo and look at the transcription from DW the more i realise that it is wrong.

Here are the two overlaid, with you playing along to the Up Close video. They do not match exactly, your one is displaced exactly as KzSgDrummer described in his original post - everything is displaced by 1/16th for most of the first two beats. Funny enough, if you make the small change of playing the bass drum and hi-hat together (which you can hear on this MP3 if you have good ears, and you can see on the video) then it all fixes itself and the issue goes away.

I'd see three conclusions one could draw from this:

1) You've got it wrong.
2) Gadd got it wrong on the Up Close video and the track is different, plus four different transcribers of the same piece are all wrong.
3) I've just spent ages faking something to make you look silly.

I know for sure it isn't #3. While I am sitting at home on my own with a pile of Lemsip and a blanket I still do have better things to do with my time than that. And I don't think #2 is very likely - and anyway, you said that the Up Close video was one of your reference sources? Is the other one different? Can you post it?

If this isn't enough to change your mind, what would you need to hear or see to be convinced?

EDIT: How about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27RdEgAh3-4&NR=1

Jon Cable
04-28-2007, 12:51 PM
I think thats a little harsh, my point was that instead of appreciating what someone can do, many ppl on here then pick apart and analyse too much, Im sure you're right finn, you've gone to an awful lot of trouble to prove it BUT I still cant play it like Gadd, I'm pretty sure you can't play it like Gadd, and apparently neither can Jason.
I was just trying to lighten the mood, and to be fair, as Im a Nurse with ppl who have Learning Disabilities, I feel that I am quite adult.
I hope you feel better soon, Jon

TopCat
04-28-2007, 12:53 PM
I think the real problem here is Gadd. How many controversial threads have been caused by his superior playing abilities? (However fun some may be...You know who I'm talking about)


;)

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 12:59 PM
I think thats a little harsh, my point was that instead of appreciating what someone can do, many ppl on here then pick apart and analyse too much, Im sure you're right finn, you've gone to an awful lot of trouble to prove it BUT I still cant play it like Gadd, I'm pretty sure you can't play it like Gadd, and apparently neither can Jason.
I was just trying to lighten the mood, and to be fair, as Im a Nurse with ppl who have Learning Disabilities, I feel that I am quite adult.
I hope you feel better soon, Jon

Jon, thanks for that. This thread has a got a bit fraught, so adding to the amount of invective flying around probably isn't going to help us all sit around the campfire and hug each other. I appreciate the post above, and thanks for the best wishes.

My main concern with arguing this one is because Jason has, repeatedly, accused people trying to correct him of being wrong - and quite harshly, too, with words like "Naysayers" and so forth. That's not really fair given that they're just trying to help him improve what he's playing and teaching.

I'd just like to see Jason correct the material a bit - not because I thought his video was bad, in fact his teaching method is very good. Better than mine, I'd be crapping myself trying to do a monologue to camera. Not quite Derrik Pope, but a lot closer than me. So having teaching skills at that level coupled with incorrect material is a real shame, and a real opportunity for improvement with some constructive criticism. That's all I'm trying to do here, no attacks on anybody.

(ps: I'd get rid of the nasty comment about Gadd before Bernard sees it, Steve Gadd's one of his favourite drummers ever. Saying nasty things about Gadd or Ringo is pretty unwise around here!)

Jon Cable
04-28-2007, 01:05 PM
Jon, thanks for that. This thread has a got a bit fraught, so adding to the amount of invective flying around probably isn't going to help us all sit around the campfire and hug each other. I appreciate the post above, and thanks for the best wishes.

My main concern with arguing this one is because Jason has, repeatedly, accused people trying to correct him of being wrong - and quite harshly, too, with words like "Naysayers" and so forth. That's not really fair given that they're just trying to help him improve what he's playing and teaching.

I'd just like to see Jason correct the material a bit - not because I thought his video was bad, in fact his teaching method is very good. Better than mine, I'd be crapping myself trying to do a monologue to camera. Not quite Derrik Pope, but a lot closer than me. So having teaching skills at that level coupled with incorrect material is a real shame, and a real opportunity for improvement with some constructive criticism. That's all I'm trying to do here, no attacks on anybody.

(ps: I'd get rid of the nasty comment about Gadd before Bernard sees it, Steve Gadd's one of his favourite drummers ever. Saying nasty things about Gadd or Ringo is pretty unwise around here!)
Appreciate the reply Finn, love your teaching site too! Bernard IS Gadd! They've never been seen together, all photos are doctored....Spooky hey? Anyways, how come you're ill in NZ? I thought that the climate was real good. Take care bro, I'll be back to annoy ppl laters...

morphe
04-28-2007, 01:16 PM
If someone pointed a gun to your face and said: "play 50 ways to leave your lover like steve gadd does it", then i guess this discussion could've been useful.
Otherwise i only see it as people being to proud to say they're wrong.
And for gods sake, dont you have anything better to do?

Bernhard
04-28-2007, 01:18 PM
I think I understand the argument here. Have you guys seen this? Watch and learn my friends...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZLLYEzKE8

Please don't point to b&w youtube-Crap, the original - as always (in colours) - is here:

http://www.drummerworld.com/Drumclinic/stevegadd50ways.html

Bernhard

Bernhard
04-28-2007, 01:28 PM
If someone pointed a gun to your face and said: "play 50 ways to leave your lover like steve gadd does it", then i guess this discussion could've been useful.
Otherwise i only see it as people being to proud to say they're wrong.
And for gods sake, dont you have anything better to do?

I love to see the match between Finn and Nutha. Who will win?

The decision i will take, when the pros step in:

- some variations from Jeff (chacka chacka bum flam dack-boom)
and the definitive version from Class A (..please)

By the way the rumour goes, that Steve can't play the groove exactly, because it was Bernard Purdie who played on the record

Bernhard

berlioz
04-28-2007, 01:39 PM
why all the arguing? This is quite simple
-Steve Gadd did an instructional video called "up close" he clearly shows us how its played AND there is a nice transcription in the book of how its played.
-The ONLY change Gadd ever makes playing this groove is that sometimes he will play only one floor tom on beat 4 of the second measure, and sometimes he plays both hands on the floor toms (thats it)
-This being said the transcription posted by Jonescrusher IS the correct transcription

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 01:49 PM
why all the arguing? This is quite simple
-Steve Gadd did an instructional video called "up close" he clearly shows us how its played AND there is a nice transcription in the book of how its played.
-The ONLY change Gadd ever makes playing this groove is that sometimes he will play only one floor tom on beat 4 of the second measure, and sometimes he plays both hands on the floor toms (thats it)
-This being said the transcription posted by Jonescrusher IS the correct transcription

I don't get all the arguing either, even though I'm a bit part of it. I'm honestly completely confused as to why I'm having this discussion because there doesn't seem to be anything to argue over - it's all right there.

berlioz
04-28-2007, 01:49 PM
By the way the rumour goes, that Steve can't play the groove exactly, because it was Bernard Purdie who played on the record

Bernhard

LOL im sure he is taking credit for that one as well :)

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 02:04 PM
LOL im sure he is taking credit for that one as well :)

No it's true! But it was actually me on "Home at last", and the guy playing with King Curtis was actually Bernhard in makeup.

Bernhard
04-28-2007, 02:37 PM
No it's true! But it was actually me on "Home at last", and the guy playing with King Curtis was actually Bernhard in makeup.

Not nice Finn, you promised me to tell it to nobody!!!

B.

berlioz
04-28-2007, 02:39 PM
I don't get all the arguing either, even though I'm a bit part of it. I'm honestly completely confused as to why I'm having this discussion because there doesn't seem to be anything to argue over - it's all right there.

we have entered "the twilight zone"

GRUNTERSDAD
04-28-2007, 02:55 PM
After all that has been said I will offer two points. First, I wish I read music better so that I could compare. Second, The skill required would take me quite a while to copy even what Jason has put on his video. I have always liked that groove and play my own interpretation of it. I find it remarkable that someone, Jason, would spend so much time and effort to help 10,000 forum members plus any visitors learn to play a very popular piece and see it picked apart like vultures. None of us I dare say will ever have to play this piece and be graded or judged on our performance. I would also bet that not even Steve Gadd plays it perfect or the same everytime. Jason I appreciate the effort putforth, and its obvious to me why you are a teacher. Thanks. G

Bernhard
04-28-2007, 03:31 PM
First, I wish I read music better so that I could compare.

He Gruntersdad, where is the problem? JUST READ IT!!

http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum2/stevegaddfifty.gif

It starts with the Snare Drum RRLL - then B is Bassdrum - L is Left Hi-Hat - next is Snare , then Hi-Hat with foot.

There is no secret and no learning, just reading....goes slow for me, but there is no other way.

Bernhard

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 03:32 PM
After all that has been said I will offer two points. First, I wish I read music better so that I could compare. Second, The skill required would take me quite a while to copy even what Jason has put on his video. I have always liked that groove and play my own interpretation of it. I find it remarkable that someone, Jason, would spend so much time and effort to help 10,000 forum members plus any visitors learn to play a very popular piece and see it picked apart like vultures. None of us I dare say will ever have to play this piece and be graded or judged on our performance. I would also bet that not even Steve Gadd plays it perfect or the same everytime. Jason I appreciate the effort putforth, and its obvious to me why you are a teacher. Thanks. G

Guntersdad... I'd just like to say that I think you're being rather rude to all the people on this thread who've given their time and energy in correcting Jason's factual errors. It's not about leaping on his video like vultures, the initial pointing-out of the error in post #12 was very polite and congratulated Jason on his video presentation. At that point there was an excellent opportunity to thank the poster for the correction and take some action to rectify the problem.

If Jason's driving motivations were honestly those of a teacher - concerned with learning and passing on accurate and true information about the tradition of drumming, and with improving his own listening and learning skills in order to do that - this thread would never have gone the way it has. Unfortunately Jason seems to be relying on some rather sub-par transcribing skills, as is evidenced by the fact that so far in this thread the only people who seem to have transcribing skills sufficient to write the groove out are to a man confused as hell that Jason isn't willing to admit an error. I'm not sure why he hasn't admitted the error, I can only conceive it must be pride.

We all understand that giving is a noble motivation, but most of us learn pretty early in life that what you give must also be earned. If you try to give away that which you don't have then few will think fondly of you, because it just creates difficulties and confusion for others. The same is true of knowledge. It would be dangerous for me to teach somebody woodworking skills - at best I'll do them little good, and at worst I could do them considerable harm. So I don't. But I do teach drumming, and I would prefer other people promoting themselves as teachers to behave like them: To be good at explaining and generous with their knowledge, but also to have that knowledge in the first place and to be willing to develop, correct and expand it as time passes.

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 03:34 PM
He Gruntersdad, where is the problem? JUST READ IT!!

http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum2/stevegaddfifty.gif

It starts with the Snare Drum RRLL - then B is Bassdrum - L is Left Hi-Hat - next is Snare , then Hi-Hat with foot.

There is no secret and no learning, just reading....goes slow for me, but there is no other way.

Bernhard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27RdEgAh3-4&NR=1

This kid seems to do it mostly* fine after "about an hour" - and his dad's counting it wrong, too. 50 Ways isn't so tricky to play, the genius is in coming up with it on the spot in a studio setting AND in playing it as cleanly and beautifully as Gadd did.

(*) - he's not quick sticking the opening fill correctly. Should be RRLL in 32nds, not RRL in 16th triplets.

berlioz
04-28-2007, 04:23 PM
He Gruntersdad, where is the problem? JUST READ IT!!

http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum2/stevegaddfifty.gif

It starts with the Snare Drum RRLL - then B is Bassdrum - L is Left Hi-Hat - next is Snare , then Hi-Hat with foot.

There is no secret and no learning, just reading....goes slow for me, but there is no other way.

Bernhard

this transcription is close Bernhard, but not exactly what Gadd plays.
so i attached the exact transcription from Gadd's "up close" book. transcribed by Steve Gadd himself and Bobby Cleall.

Bernhard has alwready posted the video of Gadd playing 50 ways from the "up close" video. I have now included "the" transcription from the accompanying book.

As stated before the only change Steve ever makes in this is on the 4th beat of the second measure. sometimes he hits one floor tom and sometimes its two (as in the video)
Everything else has always remained the same (at least from all the videos ive seen him dating back to 1976)

Case closed

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 04:38 PM
As stated before the only change Steve ever makes in this is on the 4th beat of the second measure. sometimes he hits one floor tom and sometimes its two (as in the video)
Everything else has always remained the same (at least from all the videos ive seen him dating back to 1976)


In the interests of utterly pedantic accuracy, since I've been subjecting myself to this groove an unreasonable amount today, it's worth pointing out that Gadd does sometimes omit the stepped hi-hat on the downbeat of the bar on the Up Close video.

But other than that, bravo. Case closed indeed. Gadd plays that. Jason plays this:
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12285&stc=1&d=1177761545

In other words, KzSgDrummer was 100% right in post 12.

I think the only thing left for any reasonable debate would be the possibility of a slight flam on the four in the first bar - if you watch the "Up Close" clip here on DW at around 35 seconds when the camera angle is best, that doesn't look like a pure double stroke to me, it appears he's throwing both sticks down on the four. I'm far from 100% on this though. Any thoughts?

berlioz
04-28-2007, 05:08 PM
In the interests of utterly pedantic accuracy, since I've been subjecting myself to this groove an unreasonable amount today, it's worth pointing out that Gadd does sometimes omit the stepped hi-hat on the downbeat of the bar on the Up Close video.

But other than that, bravo. Case closed indeed. Gadd plays that. Jason plays this:
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12285&stc=1&d=1177761545

In other words, KzSgDrummer was 100% right in post 12.

I think the only thing left for any reasonable debate would be the possibility of a slight flam on the four in the first bar - if you watch the "Up Close" clip here on DW at around 35 seconds when the camera angle is best, that doesn't look like a pure double stroke to me, it appears he's throwing both sticks down on the four. I'm far from 100% on this though. Any thoughts?

oh man now you opened up a whole new can of worms lol.

yeah i did notice that once in a while Gadd omits the closed hi-hat on the downbeat (but i honestly believe he just forgets about it)... I say he forgets b/c he clearly demonstrates the hi-hat part by itself, and its ment to be played on that beat.

I cant agree on the flam on beat 4 (1st measure) i can clearly see his right hand coming down first. He is after all playing 32nd notes with his right hand, so i can see how it can come out sounding somewhat like a flam.

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 05:18 PM
I cant agree on the flam on beat 4 (1st measure) i can clearly see his right hand coming down first. He is after all playing 32nd notes with his right hand, so i can see how it can come out sounding somewhat like a flam.

I'm really undecided on it, and don't feel strongly either way. The first few times through the pattern I can definitely hear it as an accented double stroke, but at a couple of points later there seems to be a subtle flam beforehand - the one at 35 seconds seems like the best-example candidate if you wanted to make a case for a flam, and it might just be a one-off variation.

But in all honesty you could play it either way and it'd sound dead-on, but you'd have to make sure any flammed grace notes are absolutely minimum pp dynamic. If you don't have flams from heaven it's probably best played as an accented double though, so for the purposes of teaching it an accented double is probably the smart route. Experimenting with a flam might be a nice way to introduce some very subtle variation into the groove though.

NUTHA JASON
04-28-2007, 05:20 PM
Unfortunately Jason seems to be relying on some rather sub-par transcribing skills, as is evidenced by the fact that so far in this thread the only people who seem to have transcribing skills sufficient to write the groove out are to a man confused as hell that Jason isn't willing to admit an error. I'm not sure why he hasn't admitted the error, I can only conceive it must be pride.


sometimes other people are right. we all stand on one side or other of the line.

and talking of subpar transcribing skills, you didn't do a great job yourself in your transcribing of what i'm playing in the vid as you failed to hear the double bass strokes.

all that said i am not unhappy actually. i'll repeat myself, at the risk of being rude, there must be 50 ways to play paul simon.

and with all this debate the thread has manged to stay firmly at the top of the page in spite of matts very interesting drumming vid so my little lesson has been viewed by a lot of folks and if only half of them have learned something that they didn't have before then kudos to all of us. and here's a rare smiley from me ;-)

j

finnhiggins
04-28-2007, 05:25 PM
and talking of subpar transcribing skills, you didn't do a great job yourself in your transcribing of what i'm playing in the vid as you failed to hear the double bass strokes.


Good golly gosh, you mean I missed two very quiet notes while I was transcribing on speakers with a cellist practicing right next to me? Well, shucks. I suppose that really is just as bad as transcribing a groove with two beats displaced a 16th, learning it, making a video about it, slowing it down, lecturing authoritatively on the subject of how one should play the groove, making authoritative pronouncements on what is the "right" and "wrong" way to play the groove, getting corrected about the transcription, refusing to acknowledge it, making authoritative pronouncements about the fact that there is JUST NO WAY that the stepped hi-hat is on the one with the bass drum and then finally getting corrected by an official transcription.

I'll get my coat. Clearly we're equal in our errors.


all that said i am not unhappy actually. i'll repeat myself, at the risk of being rude, there must be 50 ways to play paul simon.


Right. But only one of them is the way that Steve Gadd played it, which is surely a key question when making a lesson on the topic? Unless you're aspiring to be the next Jeff Indyke, of course.

NUTHA JASON
04-28-2007, 05:31 PM
yes i want more than a million viewers. watch out for my bonham tutorials later.

j

Jon Cable
04-28-2007, 08:13 PM
Good golly gosh, you mean I missed two very quiet notes while I was transcribing on speakers with a cellist practicing right next to me? Well, shucks. I suppose that really is just as bad as transcribing a groove with two beats displaced a 16th, learning it, making a video about it, slowing it down, lecturing authoritatively on the subject of how one should play the groove, making authoritative pronouncements on what is the "right" and "wrong" way to play the groove, getting corrected about the transcription, refusing to acknowledge it, making authoritative pronouncements about the fact that there is JUST NO WAY that the stepped hi-hat is on the one with the bass drum and then finally getting corrected by an official transcription.

I'll get my coat. Clearly we're equal in our errors.



Right. But only one of them is the way that Steve Gadd played it, which is surely a key question when making a lesson on the topic? Unless you're aspiring to be the next Jeff Indyke, of course. FINN, do you have your own cellist??

mofle
04-28-2007, 10:57 PM
FINN, do you have your own cellist??

He bought it at a yard sale

GRUNTERSDAD
04-29-2007, 02:01 AM
He Gruntersdad, where is the problem? JUST READ IT!!

http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum2/stevegaddfifty.gif

It starts with the Snare Drum RRLL - then B is Bassdrum - L is Left Hi-Hat - next is Snare , then Hi-Hat with foot.

There is no secret and no learning, just reading....goes slow for me, but there is no other way.

Bernhard

Sorry Mr. B, I haven't had the need to read music for over thirty years so I am a bit rusty. I am happy at this point of playing again for a year to even have some skills at rudiments. The reading will come in due time.

GRUNTERSDAD
04-29-2007, 02:23 AM
"Guntersdad... I'd just like to say that I think you're being rather rude to all the people on this thread who've given their time and energy in correcting Jason's factual errors. It's not about leaping on his video like vultures, the initial pointing-out of the error in post #12 was very polite and congratulated Jason on his video presentation. At that point there was an excellent opportunity to thank the poster for the correction and take some action to rectify the problem."

Sorry Finn, but I felt that those that were picking at a few notes were being rude to Jason. I'm sorry if my remarks offended you or anyone else.

Class A Drummer
04-29-2007, 04:42 AM
this transcription is close Bernhard, but not exactly what Gadd plays.
so i attached the exact transcription from Gadd's "up close" book. transcribed by Steve Gadd himself and Bobby Cleall.

Bernhard has alwready posted the video of Gadd playing 50 ways from the "up close" video. I have now included "the" transcription from the accompanying book.

As stated before the only change Steve ever makes in this is on the 4th beat of the second measure. sometimes he hits one floor tom and sometimes its two (as in the video)
Everything else has always remained the same (at least from all the videos ive seen him dating back to 1976)

Case closed
Yup thats the one in the book that i know. There is almost no difference between this and the one on Drummerworld except the hi hat at the begining. I think it sounds so much better with it for some reason.

Ufipman!
04-29-2007, 12:15 PM
Sorry Mr. B, I haven't had the need to read music for over thirty years so I am a bit rusty. I am happy at this point of playing again for a year to even have some skills at rudiments. The reading will come in due time.

Gruntersdad you are one of the nicest guys in this forum. I just want to say that. Also, reading rhythmic notation is not beyond your grasp. I think what Bernhard is saying is just do it! I do not understand why so many drummers avoid the reading thing. I believe it's a fairly simple thing to understand.
50 ways is not too hard to read or execute. This thread may never had existed if we all read drum notation. Drummers, please do not ignore what has been handed down from other drummers of the past. We now have a clear, cohesive way of deciphering and transcribing drum music so there isn't much guess work. I would like to think most drummers actually use this to their advantage.

jazzin'
04-29-2007, 01:56 PM
Starting out reading music can be a little difficult and somewhat daunting although it shouldn't be as with a bit of patient work and consistency you can get good at it reasonably quickly.
If you haven't been taught how to read note values and rests and how to put it all together it can seem like quite a confusing mess. The 50 ways wouldn't be the easiest to read if you don't know how...if someone could put up some numbers in sixteenths (1 e and a) right above the transcription to show where each note falls in relation to the time and the rest of the notes then it would make it a lot easier for someone to read and understand then saying 'just read it, it's not hard'. If I had the stuff to do it I would, unfortunately I don't though.

SickRick
04-30-2007, 01:00 AM
Wow, what a thread. I have some further observations that I think might add to this. Hopefully it won't make that whole thing here any worse (after all, things seem to have loosened up a bit in the last few posts...).

First of all: I didn't read the thread and just watched the vid. My first thought was: "This is not 50 Ways to leave your lover because the backbeat is displaced." Now - this is not a problem at all. Everybody makes mistakes and that is good as long as you learn from them. What I found much more interesting is that J didn't take any of the (partially) constructive critique that was given and instead called the guys critiquing him wrong and "naysayers" (which I didn't find to be very polite). My thought is that if you make a vid that has the purpose of teaching someone something, it should strive to be correct. If any mistakes occur it would be a better way to admit it, laugh about it and maybe make a repost with a correction. Sadly, nothing of this happened but instead a thread evolved that reminded me of the thread in which Class A was "playing" a Gadd groove.

My final advice on this topic is for Jason not to be that touchy and sometimes admit mistakes. That is not a bad thing at all. This whole debate doesn't need to be lead as heated as it has been lead - that also goes to some of the "naysayers". Everybody chill out.

Well, I had some more thoughts and I want to share them - they are some things about the vid and your playing.

I think you are a quite entertaining guy, so I liked how you were getting your points across. This is probably the most important part of making tutorial vids, so keep that up.

About your playing: I have some things that came to my mind (that have nothing to do with the pattern).

1.: You don't really match the feel of Gadd (nobody does), I think you are hitting way too hard, especially in the chorus section. That destroys the feel of the groove and song, so you should play a little more relaxed and gentle.
2.: Your fills are quite out of place both timingwise and in terms of dynamics. Try to stay in the feel of the song even when your playing fills.
3.: Your overall timing seems to be a bit shaky, especially in the verse pattern. The 16th notes are just not even at all and you might want to spend some time playing it really slow. This reminds me of a test I had to pass in Mark Schulmanns Rock Class at LAMA where I had to play a Bozzio Groove (that also was a mostly linear pattern). I failed that test and Mark made me play that groove for him at 25% of its original speed for hours and weeks. He really insisted on getting the timing perfect and he told me a lesson I will never forget: "Respect the space in between the notes. That space is far more important than the actual notes themself". 6 weeks later I passed the test (and trust me, I never sweated that much before playing drums like on that day).
Overall, you should not only try to play the notes, but also try to imitate Gadd - his feel, his timing and his dynamics. There is much more to a groove than the notes.
4.: Your hand technique looks nice but might be even better - it is hard to tell, but from what I saw, I'd say that there could be more space in between your stick and your hand (you seem to wrap your index finger around the stick - to me the perfect place to grab sticks is the first joint of the fingers - as far away from the hand as possible while still maintaining a good and safe grip). Also, your motions (like Moeller strokes for example) could be a bit more fluid and smooth - that would reflect positivly in your timing as well. Watch some Dave Weckl for that (even though I don't like his playing, he looks damn smooth on the set).
5.: Switch to traditional - it just looks soooooo much cooler.....

All that said I want to make clear that this is critique on a high standard. But you are a mod at drummerworld and you gave this out as a teaching tutorial, so I think it is OK for me, to go into detail here.

Last advice (I promise): Loosen up a bit. You seem to be getting defensive quite fast lately. which I think is really sad. It is much more fun to argue with each other if you don't have to worry too much that someone might get offended easily. Well.... that also goes to some other guys in this thread I guess.

NUTHA JASON
04-30-2007, 06:36 AM
thanks for that rick.... actually this thread had lightened up quite a lot at the end.

on a point by point basis:

1. i wish i had gadds feel. on the chorus section ... listen to the live version of the song...gadd rocks it. and plus...i really am not trying to be gadd...i am a hard hitting drummer...that is me.

2 in your opinion of course. my fills once again are more aimed at the exciting live version of this song that i am basing them on ... it had a horn section.

3 this is true... i was to be honest, nervous of the camera and trying to get it right for all of you, which ... as is so often the case, the perfect way to get something wrong.

4 i don't think you can tell this from the video. my hands are very relaxed trust me, the stick is quite loose in there of that i am confident. i don't think i would be able to play the gigs i do at the volumes and durations that i do every week if i were tightened up.

5 this is silly. i hope you are joking. i know bart elliot would have a field day with you on this point over at drummercafe. if you are serious about this it kind of negates a lot of the more professional judgements that came before.


on your last point i do sometimes feel a bit er, crowded. its hard being a mod and a poster. i am determined to be both and enjoy both. but i won't always get the mix right because as agent smith would say:

'...only human'

j

SickRick
04-30-2007, 10:27 AM
1. i wish i had gadds feel. on the chorus section ... listen to the live version of the song...gadd rocks it. and plus...i really am not trying to be gadd...i am a hard hitting drummer...that is me.

4 i don't think you can tell this from the video. my hands are very relaxed trust me, the stick is quite loose in there of that i am confident. i don't think i would be able to play the gigs i do at the volumes and durations that i do every week if i were tightened up.

5 this is silly. i hope you are joking. i know bart elliot would have a field day with you on this point over at drummercafe. if you are serious about this it kind of negates a lot of the more professional judgements that came before.

j

Just some more thoughts on these points:

1.: Sometimes it is good to be trying to someone else on the drums in order to progress. Being yourself is really easy..... A lot of great drummers spend an awfull lot of time trying to play as accuratly as possible like their idols. Tony Williams for example spent years to sound like Max Roach or like Art Blakey. Look at it that way: Someone has something that you haven't got - the only way to get it, is by imitating and making it your own. Every drummer should always try to be as open for everything as possible. Don't limit yourself. By saying "I am a hard hitter, that's it", you are limiting yourself. (Being a hard hitter is fine btw, not saying anything against that.). I think that even what Gadd does live is still different from the way you played it. Even when he rocks out, it has some kind of earthiness to it while still being loose.

4.: I wasn't really talking about being tightened up, I'm sure you can play for hours like that. I was more talking about fluidness and sound. The more your hands touch of the stick, the less it will sound. But as you said: It is hard to tell from that vid so it was just a general advice.

5.: Of course that was a joke. Sometimes this forum really should allow the usage of smilies. (Huh... now I will get my ass kicked by Bernie).

Bernhard
04-30-2007, 06:29 PM
Sometimes this forum really should allow the usage of smilies. (Huh... now I will get my ass kicked by Bernie).

No, don't worry Rick -- loved and love your posts and comments!!!!


"Nutha: You seem to be getting defensive quite fast lately. which I think is really sad. "

Marriage Marriage.....

Bernhard

NUTHA JASON
04-30-2007, 08:27 PM
okay everyone ... time to fess up. i know what i'm playing is not exactly right ... not exactly Gadd. finn, rob and co were right. the problem with my version if you want to play it spot on with gadd is glaringly obvious in that in my version i end each pretom section on the snare while gadd fits in a hihat stroke more. at 101 bpm this is so barely discernable that it is not worth, as i said, splitting hairs about if you want to play the song generally. hey check out how bermuda plays it in '50 ways to get benladin'. my version is close enough to fool most people including drummers ... which is good enough ... unless its an audition for paul simon. the way i play it grooves wonderfully with the band and i will record it at a gig on video one of these days for you.

so to set the record straight .... this is my version of 50 ways. i'll be putting some sort of preamble on my website that says something similar perhaps with transcriptions of the two versions when i make a page dedicated to this lovely beat.

love you all

j

ps: bernhard ... you got it in one.

SickRick
04-30-2007, 10:30 PM
For the celebration of this day I have decided to change my Signature.

Take Care, Play on!

Drum-Head
05-01-2007, 01:13 AM
Wow this thread was a real roller coaster ride. I'm glad to see everything went back to normal. And lol at SickRick for the sig.!

drflam
05-01-2007, 11:45 PM
Think I'll get around to learning that groove today. Never really bothered before!

Jason, your accent has me perplexed. At times it sounds Australian (I'm Aussie), at others it sounds South African, and then the rest of the time is the English accent.
Where have you lived over the years?

rendezvous_drummer
05-02-2007, 06:04 AM
He was born in South Africa eh

NUTHA JASON
05-02-2007, 06:20 AM
and lived my formative years in the ex british colony of natal in south africa. so some brit is from there. plus i'm now learning hungarian so its all going to get more exotic

j

KzSgDrummer
05-04-2007, 05:55 AM
"Respect the space in between the notes. That space is far more important than the actual notes themself"

Quote of the millenium as far as I'm concerned. That's what makes Gadd so special - he knows how to shape space just as well as he does actual notes.