MD's 25 Legends who changed drumming

[LinearDrummer]

Thought I'd share this....

http://www.moderndrummer.com/itemList/accessories

My first response is I can't believe Travis and Grohl are on that list.....
SMH in disbelief....

My second response is how can Stewart Copeland and Bill Bruford NOT be on there...

And then the more I thought about it no Porcaro or Purdie...I mean these guys put the half-time shuffle on the map....or even Jabo or Clyde or Ziggy -the true pioneers of ghosting the snare and playing funk...

I know everyone can't make the top 25 but some strange choices especially two of them....but thats just me....

[cjl71178]

I wasn't even going to check this out because I knew there would be a few that should be on that list...copeland, bruford, and NO PORCARO? WTF?

Don't go throwing anything at me, but I can see why grohl is on there (because of Nirvana) and not that i'm defending him, but the queens of the stone age's "song for the deaf" album is grohl at his best. It really turned my head because i don't like nirvana.

Anyways, to call these two "drum gods"....c'mon.

25 is not enough...and I'm not inspired to buy the book either!

[Fur drummer]

No Louie Bellson? He was the first to use two base drums. I don't know why he is not on that list?

[d.c.drummer]

Ok, i am not a Barker-head, but you must admit, for modern rock, he one of the most "out there" drummers.

No one can dispute, his playing is solid, he's creative, he's an icon as far as 14 year old export playing teenagers are concerned.

Dave Ghrole is the same. I dont think anyone can say with a straight face that Nirvana isnt a very important band and that the foo-fighters and thier music are to be scoffed at.


Plus relax, do you see how far barkers' name is away from rich's? ^_^

[CVdrummer]

i must disagree with Barker and Dave grohl in that list...specially dave..i think it's tight how he's a succesful musician switchin instruments and bands and being so huge..but his drumming in nirvana was not impressive nor inspiring for me at any circumstances. and as far as travis...it's w/e to me..i wouldn't call him a drum god but i wouldnt call him a crappy drummer either

[Fur drummer]

i must disagree with Barker and Dave grohl in that list...specially dave..i think it's tight how he's a succesful musician switchin instruments and bands and being so huge..but his drumming in nirvana was not impressive nor inspiring for me at any circumstances. and as far as travis...it's w/e to me..i wouldn't call him a drum god but i wouldnt call him a crappy drummer either

I agree, they are both very talented drummers but I don't think they changed drumming. Grohl was in a band that is credited for the birth of grunge but does that make him a drum god?

[maddrummr]

YAY KEITH MOON!!!

Grohl and Barker are iffy's.
Grohls stuff is good yea but i really dont think it changed as much of drumming as some of the previously mentioned.
Barker is an idol now for drummers i guess, so i guess he's gotta be on the list.

[chuzwazza]

I think Copeland and Bruford are GREAT drummers, but i dont believe that they influenced drummers in the way that drummers like Barker and Grohl. if everyone young drummer was influenced by drummers like bruford, things would get stale, but drummers like Grohl brought a new energy to drumming. anyway, the list is legends who ''changed drumming'', not just ''legends of drumming''. this is just my opinion.

[Class A Drummer]

One more here who is surprised Barker is on it. I cant belive that Neither Thomas Lang, Jeff Porcaro, nor Jojo Mayer is on the list.

This is ridiculous, i would love to talk to the maker of that list.

[michael drums]

Go figure! Buddy Rich and Neil Peart...Drum Gods!

Hate to say I told ya so, but... I T Y S...Play On! ;-)

[michael drums]

One more here who is surprised Barker is on it. I cant belive that Neither Thomas Lang, Jeff Porcaro, nor Jojo Mayer is on the list.

This is ridiculous, i would love to talk to the maker of that list.

Hey Class A! I would agree with you about Porcaro. He inspired alot of todays' drummers AND the drummers during his time in the 70's and 80's. But I believe Lang and Mayer are STILL in the process of being "legends who changed drumming". And they're 2 of my modern day favorites right now!

I'm also surprised about Barker being on this list, as well as Dave Grohl! I believe these 2 are ALSO still in the process of "changing drumming" and shouldn't be on this list(yet)...Play On! ;-)

[jazzin']

None of the young drummers today have changed how we play today. That is absurd to think so. It is just aimed at getting the young demographic to buy it.

Travis Barker changing how we play? Grohl? Quite a few on that list I can't understand how they could be said to have 'changed drumming'.

They're just very popular and may have contributed to people taking up the instrument but to say they have changed the way we play is simply a mass overstatement and written in poor perspective.

Modern drummer has gone down hill sadly. At my Uni they have the back catalogue of all modern drummer's. Some of those early ones are fantastic, actually most were great up until a few years ago...around 2000 maybe.

Percussive notes is still an amazing resource for drumming and always have something educational and interesting in it. Without the bore of whoever is in the popular band whether they can play or not.

[tamagroove9]

Copeland not on the list is crazy! Half the interviews you see in drum magazines with drummers list Copeland as a big influence.I guess the list did it's job because wer'e all talking about it.

[tamadrummer132]

Ok, i am not a Barker-head, but you must admit, for modern rock, he one of the most "out there" drummers.

No one can dispute, his playing is solid, he's creative, he's an icon as far as 14 year old export playing teenagers are concerned.

Dave Ghrole is the same. I dont think anyone can say with a straight face that Nirvana isnt a very important band and that the foo-fighters and thier music are to be scoffed at.


Plus relax, do you see how far barkers' name is away from rich's? ^_^


im 14 and play a tama rockstar, and him and bonham are tied for most overrated drummers..


As far as grohl and barker, they werent anything amazing. But this list isnt skill, its influence. So barker should be there, not sure about grohl tho.

[d.c.drummer]

One more here who is surprised Barker is on it. I cant belive that Neither Thomas Lang, Jeff Porcaro, nor Jojo Mayer is on the list.

This is ridiculous, i would love to talk to the maker of that list.

We know them but a lot of people dont. Thier music is not as wide spread. There are some very good drummers that are known a lot in the outside world, or, rather, in certain circles of music that are not of Drummerworlds taste we don't know about (not bashing DW in any way shape or form). They, while extremly talented, are just not as well know as some of the ither guys on the list.

[d.c.drummer]

im 14 and play a tama rockstar, and him and bonham are tied for most overrated drummers..

As far as grohl and barker, they werent anything amazing. But this list isnt skill, its influence. So barker should be there, not sure about grohl tho.


Uh oohhhh, did you say bonham was overated??? I THINK SO TOO!!!! (to afraid to say it).... now lets get out of here before we get stoned..

[arsenal1189]

not that he really changed anything in particular but Sonny Payne is a great drummer as well

[nickg]

im 14 and play a tama rockstar, and him and bonham are tied for most overrated drummers..


so barker should be there.......

that's why you shouldn't pay attention to what a 14 year old drummer has to say.

[rockinrider]

I'm surprised that Ginger Baker is not on the list.

Before Ginger in Cream, most pop drumming was Ringo, Charlie Watts, Bernard Purdie, and Hal Blaine. All great and respected drummers. All groove drummers. However, Ginger changed the attitude. Because of Ginger, it is OK to NOT use your hi-hat, slam your toms when ever you felt like it, and double-bass 'til your legs fell off. It is OK to JAM!

IMHO, The drumming world is measurably different due to Ginger.

[zappafan]

that's why you shouldn't pay attention to what a 14 year old drummer has to say.
Although I don't completely agree with the "14 year old drummer", I believe your statement about not paying attention to him is a bit pompous on your part. It is an opinion, simply that. If he said Bonham is a great influence to drummer's (which I think he is), would you pay attention to that statement? Perhaps, but it seems like you may because he agrees with many (not all) others as well as yourself.

He does have a great point about Barker. Although I am not a Blink fan, he seems to have been a great influence on many kids. A custom cymbals seem to have been skyrocketing in popularity because of him, as well as his set up of drums. (low toms etc).


As for Lineardrummer's ideas of Ziggy et all being on the list. I believe he is looking at it from a "drummer's point of view". I had no idea who these guys were before I started playing drums. I would say the list is made up generally of the most popular dudes as a whole and not necessarily the most talented, if you can actually measure talent. Since a guy who doesn't do claves and all the Thomas Lang type stuff on an album, does that make him any less talented than Lang? Can Ringo play as fast as Jordison? My guess is probably. May not sound too great doing 350 bpm's on Strawberry Fields, though :)

Anyway, cool topic for discussion.

Peace.

[tamadrummer132]

that's why you shouldn't pay attention to what a 14 year old drummer has to say.

everyone my friend is entitled to his own opinion. Personally, i think bonham was a pretty good drummer. not a drum god, just pretty good.

Now you can look stupid by judging someone by their age, or read my posts with an open and unbiased mind and realize that not every 14 year old thinks that speed is the best thing in the world.

[Drum-Head]

Other than the fact that what MD did there is ridiculous. I can't believe that someone actually said that Dave Grohl and Travis Barker (no disrespect whatsoever to them) have contributed more to the evolution of our art than say, Copeland. All we need next is someone popping in and saying that Chris Adler should be on that list (no disrespect to him either) instead of Steve Gadd! Please, please read again: LEGENDS THAT CHANGED DRUMMING. not "My personal opinion on who is more famous and who everybody around me thinks is hype."

And in my opinion, the title "Drum Gods" is very badly chosen. The drummers who have changed drumming are/were not necessarily God-esque performers (you know, like virtuosos.) And they did not have to be one.

[tamadrummer132]

not "My personal opinion on who is more famous and who everybody around me thinks is cool."

Now I can't believe I just wrote this... I must be in a bad mood.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the more famous you are, the more people watch your playing, and are thereforce INFLUENCED by it. barker is famous, he influences alot of young drummers. I personally dont like him, but alot of people do. HENCE hes on the list.

[Drum-Head]

Tamadrummer,


Your answer is not in relation with my point. I'm not talking about who is influencing the young drummers of today. I mentioned Travis Barker in comparison to Copeland (who happens to be one of Travis' biggest influences by the way.) I wrote what you quoted because some here seem to be saying that those who have changed drumming are those who are simply famous amongst us today.

This list is supposed to be about those who have marked a Before *insert name here* and an After *re-insert name here* era.

[tamadrummer132]

oh, yeah i guess you got a point... it does say legends and technically travis isnt one.

[d.c.drummer]

oh, yeah i guess you got a point... it does say legends and technically travis isnt one.

travis is on his way....

Check out FIRST line from his bio on drummerworld..

"Travis Barker is quickly becoming one of the more influential musicians on the Rock scene today. "

Ahh, the irony.....

[Drum-Head]

To play the devil's advocate, a lot of the bios on Drummerworld are from other sources...

[intooder]

Apparently something went awry during the pre-printing stage. This is the editor's final version:

THE DRUM GODS
23 Legendary Talents Who Changed Drumming

Buddy Rich (Big Band Legend)
Gene Krupa (Drumming’s First Star)
Steve Gadd (Recording Giant)
Tony Williams (Miles Davis)
Neil Peart (Rush)
Vinnie Colaiuta (Frank Zappa, Sting)
Max Roach (Dizzy Gillespie)
John Bonham (Led Zeppelin)
Elvin Jones (John Coltrane)
Papa Jo Jones (Count Basie)
Billy Cobham (Mahavishnu Orchestra)
Art Blakey (The Jazz Messengers)
Ringo Starr (The Beatles)
Jack DeJohnette (Jazz Great)
Dennis Chambers (Santana)
Roy Haynes (Charlie Parker)
Terry Bozzio (Frank Zappa/Missing Persons)
Philly Joe Jones (Miles Davis)
David Garibaldi (Tower Of Power)
Keith Moon (The Who)
Steve Smith (Journey/Vital Information)
Dave Weckl (Chick Corea/Dave Weckl Band)
Dave Lombardo (Slayer)

as reported by:
Dave Grohl (Nirvana/Foo Fighters) &
Travis Barker (Blink-182/Transplants/+44)

[nickg]

everyone my friend is entitled to his own opinion. Personally, i think bonham was a pretty good drummer. not a drum god, just pretty good.

Now you can look stupid by judging someone by their age, or read my posts with an open and unbiased mind and realize that not every 14 year old thinks that speed is the best thing in the world.

too many young drummers today have no idea of the legacy that came before them. it's all about "who has the biggest kit" or "who can play the fastest" or who the latest emo or death metal flavor of the week is.

to say that bonham or copeland are overated is ridiculous. you may not like them, as nobody likes everybody, but to say they are overated with so many drummers who state that those guys have been an influence on their playing is, as i said, ridiculous.

i'm not a fan of neil peart at all, but i cannot deny the influence he has had on many drummers over the last 30+ years. i may not like his playing but i will give him his due.

[emmerson]

WHERES DANNY CAREY!?!?! HOW CAN HE NOT BE ON THAT LIST!?

[Class A Drummer]

Hey Class A! I would agree with you about Porcaro. He inspired alot of todays' drummers AND the drummers during his time in the 70's and 80's. But I believe Lang and Mayer are STILL in the process of being "legends who changed drumming". And they're 2 of my modern day favorites right now!

I'm also surprised about Barker being on this list, as well as Dave Grohl! I believe these 2 are ALSO still in the process of "changing drumming" and shouldn't be on this list(yet)...Play On! ;-)

idk. Although Lang and Mayer are not that as well known as John Bonham and Buddy Rich, i belive they have dramatically changed the world of drumming.

Thomas Lang- Showed so many different combonations and tricks you can do implementing the hands and feet. He gave me a whole new perspective on how you can use your feet in drumming.

Jojo- IMO a god of drumnbass/jungle/techno-like drumming.

We all have different opinions.

[jazzsnob]

Since Grohl came out with Nirvana, can ANYONE here honestly say that they've ever heard him A)Play anything that wasn't perfect for the song and B)Play anything that didn't show impeccable taste and joyous passion?

Seriously, he is an amazing, amazing drummer. Especially when people complain about over-chopped, big kitted flavors of the week, and then somehow have a problem with Grohl. I've NEVER heard him play a note that didn't fit excellently with whatever music he's playing. That's more than I can say from travis barker, stewart copeland or john bonham for that matter. Doesn't mean he's better, and I don't know if he should be on that list, but what I do know is that most younger drummers wouldn't give him the time of day over chris adler, while most older, more experienced and professional drummers just give him silent respect for being one of those guys who can just do it RIGHT.


/rant

[rendezvous_drummer]

This list is of legends right? Here's how I see it. I agree with what Jazzsnob said about being a great and unfluental drummer. He is no doubt, an influental drummer. Many drummers today name both Barker and Grohl as their influences. But I don't think they're legends....yet. I'm not going to complain about this list because THE LIST IS AN OPINION!! NOT FACTUAL!!. There is no list out there made by one person that is 100% correct in everyone's point of view. If you don't like the list or thinks that there should be other drummers on there, then make your own list and go by that. Quit your complaining, it's only an opinion.

[jazzsnob]

This list is of legends right? Here's how I see it. I agree with what Jazzsnob said about being a great and unfluental drummer. He is no doubt, an influental drummer. Many drummers today name both Barker and Grohl as their influences. But I don't think they're legends....yet. I'm not going to complain about this list because THE LIST IS AN OPINION!! NOT FACTUAL!!. There is no list out there made by one person that is 100% correct in everyone's point of view. If you don't like the list or thinks that there should be other drummers on there, then make your own list and go by that. Quit your complaining, it's only an opinion.
Everyone needs to remember this post when discussing the decisions.

[Drum-Head]

Thomas Lang- Showed so many different combinations and tricks you can do implementing the hands and feet. He gave me a whole new perspective on how you can use your feet in drumming.

On that matter I believe, if I'm not mistaken, than Virgil Donati was pushing the limits and demonstrating all that way before Lang. Therefore being the one opening doors for everybody in those domains.


THE LIST IS AN OPINION!! NOT FACTUAL!!. There is no list out there made by one person that is 100% correct in everyone's point of view. If you don't like the list or thinks that there should be other drummers on there, then make your own list and go by that. Quit your complaining, it's only an opinion.

I don't know if I am going to manage to be understood the way I'd like too but... This is where I do not get it. Personally, I believe such a list should not be purely based on opinion and should have a factual side to it. Like some sort of historical fact if you get what I mean? For example if someone made such a list and put say, Meg White, Rob Bourdon, Damian Cornolia and Daniel Erlandsson (again NOTHING against these drummers at all) on there wouldn't you think something is wrong?

Also, this this is why I think what MD did is ridiculous because if it is a opinionated list, why does it seem to stand out as some authority reference in who is a drum god and who contributed to the evolution of our art? If is an opinionated list, I think it should have been a bit more clear. So to say, I think the way it is presented is misleading. Just my opinion and view...

[Mr. Pasquini]

WHERES DANNY CAREY!?!?! HOW CAN HE NOT BE ON THAT LIST!?

Basically, he's not the person the guy who wrote the column was thinking about at the time. I like Carey but he hasn't changed drumming for anyone yet. Just himself.


The list is alright. Barker has made drumming very interesting for many young drummers today. I have friends who started playing solely because they loved Barkers style. While he may not be my favorite he is very good and does get people playing. Anyways it's just peoples opinions. This is really not that important.

Quit getting mad about this list, it's really not worth the energy we could use laying down a funky groove.

[jazzin']

This list is of legends right? Here's how I see it. I agree with what Jazzsnob said about being a great and unfluental drummer. He is no doubt, an influental drummer. Many drummers today name both Barker and Grohl as their influences. But I don't think they're legends....yet. I'm not going to complain about this list because THE LIST IS AN OPINION!! NOT FACTUAL!!. There is no list out there made by one person that is 100% correct in everyone's point of view. If you don't like the list or thinks that there should be other drummers on there, then make your own list and go by that. Quit your complaining, it's only an opinion.

Yeah you're right. But, this is a discussion board about drumming where we discuss our opinions on drumming. Everything is opinion. Everyone that talks about anything on this board is opioninised. That's the whole point of this thing. I'm sure you've disagreed with some people on here about their opinions, which is exactly the point really.
I was just looking at this from the view of the title. My opinion is that it's a little misleading. I don't disagree at all that all the drummers on that list are good and are all very influential. Jazzsnob, you're spot on to say that Grohl is an amazing drummer in that what he plays is perfect for the song. Fantastic playing in Nirvana and now with singing and guitaring in F.F.
All I'm getting at is that this a major article from Modern Drummer about '25 legends who changed drumming'. I take that as who has actually changed the way the future generation of drummers play. That's a pretty big statement and I think a number of those guys on it are amazing drummers but didn't change the way we play.
I don't think we're complaining, just discussing our own opinion on this debatable drumming article. It's cool, it's why we're here.

[rendezvous_drummer]

Yeah you're right. But, this is a discussion board about drumming where we discuss our opinions on drumming. Everything is opinion. Everyone that talks about anything on this board is opioninised. That's the whole point of this thing. I'm sure you've disagreed with some people on here about their opinions, which is exactly the point really.
I was just looking at this from the view of the title. My opinion is that it's a little misleading. I don't disagree at all that all the drummers on that list are good and are all very influential. Jazzsnob, you're spot on to say that Grohl is an amazing drummer in that what he plays is perfect for the song. Fantastic playing in Nirvana and now with singing and guitaring in F.F.
All I'm getting at is that this a major article from Modern Drummer about '25 legends who changed drumming'. I take that as who has actually changed the way the future generation of drummers play. That's a pretty big statement and I think a number of those guys on it are amazing drummers but didn't change the way we play.
I don't think we're complaining, just discussing our own opinion on this debatable drumming article. It's cool, it's why we're here.


I just find it dumb when people say "why isn't *insert name* on here!" That's complaining. Not everyone is going to feel the same way you feel, so why complain..It's a list made by one individual...it's not set in stone or proved that these 25 drummers are the legends who changed drumming. It's fine to discuss it, but when people say "WHY ISN'T THIS PERSON ON THE LIST!!", where does that get you....honestly.

[jazzin']

Yeah, true. There always seems to be a point at which it goes from discussing the merits of who is on the list and wondering if they should be there or if they have changed drumming to getting carried away with why your favourite drummer wasn't on the list, unfortunately.

I mean, it is just a list based on someones opinion and like you said that is nothing to get carried away over...they should change the name to 'most influential drummers' or something a bit more appropriate I guess.

A topic like this is always going to draw some heat, especially when some old classic drummers have been replaced by the new popular drummers of the day. Or when some of the new popular drummers aren't on there.

[Drum-Head]

All I'm getting at is that this a major article from Modern Drummer about '25 legends who changed drumming'. I take that as who has actually changed the way the future generation of drummers play. That's a pretty big statement and I think a number of those guys on it are amazing drummers but didn't change the way we play.

This is exactly what I have been trying to express from the start. And what I'd like us to talk about.

[LinearDrummer]

No Louie Bellson? He was the first to use two base drums.

Good point....Louie get no respect sometimes...

It's fine to discuss it, but when people say "WHY ISN'T THIS PERSON ON THE LIST!!", where does that get you....honestly.


Ofcourse its an opinion....but this is forum where you debate and state your opinion....
How should it be discussed then....


I've NEVER heard Grohl play a note that didn't fit excellently with whatever music he's playing. That's more than I can say from travis barker, stewart copeland or john bonham for that matter.

Kinda surprised you feel this way Jazzsnob.....

[rendezvous_drummer]

Ofcourse its an opinion....but this is forum where you debate and state your opinion....
How should it be discussed then....


Is the person who wrote the article here? No, so what's the big deal then. Sure, state your opinion but don't get angry about it. Write your own list if you don't like it.

[jazzsnob]

Kinda surprised you feel this way Jazzsnob.....



I didn't say I didn't like those guys, I love them both, but I have heard things on record from them that I don't necessarily like musicially or think is was the best thing to play. Grohl may be more limited than both of them, but he taps into the feel of the music of he's working on perfectly. He's egoless, grooves in the best way for the music(means rushing sometimes, but it's perfect for what he's doing. rushing doesn't sound good with the police to me), and his style has shown through since the earliest demos of him I've heard from Nirvana. Great, great drummer. He cuts out a lot of the stuff I don't like in modern rock drumming. Listening back to some of my more recent recordings I'm sitting wishing I had cut out some of the Copeland influence and brought it some more Grohl influence.

[LinearDrummer]

state your opinion but don't get angry about it. Write your own list if you don't like it.

Me angry Nah....I have a show tonight and I'm amped....
I just wanted to see if other drummers were surprised by some of the choices as I was....

Wasn't looking for respones like "its an opinion!" " "its dumb when people say why wasn't" yada-yada....not sure I understand where those type are responses are needed but no biggie its all good with me man....

[LinearDrummer]

Listening back to some of my more recent recordings I'm sitting wishing I had cut out some of the Copeland influence and brought it some more Grohl influence.

I feel where your commin from man...
.
I think your a more mature drummer than I am even thou i'm older than you....I'm still caught up in the "Licks" stage so I probably never was looking for that ingredeint in him....

Either way do you still think of him as someone who belongs on that list....

[d.c.drummer]

THE LIST IS AN OPINION!! NOT FACTUAL!!.
could ya type that in a bigger font, i dont have my glasses on me today... =P

[Muckster]

I take lists like hat with a grain of salt, realizing that it's all subjective.

But i must say to leave Louie and the great Kenny Clarke out is just absurd.

Klook is the reason we play time on the ride cymbal.

[Alex H]

Since Grohl came out with Nirvana, can ANYONE here honestly say that they've ever heard him A)Play anything that wasn't perfect for the song and B)Play anything that didn't show impeccable taste and joyous passion?

Seriously, he is an amazing, amazing drummer. Especially when people complain about over-chopped, big kitted flavors of the week, and then somehow have a problem with Grohl. I've NEVER heard him play a note that didn't fit excellently with whatever music he's playing. That's more than I can say from travis barker, stewart copeland or john bonham for that matter. Doesn't mean he's better, and I don't know if he should be on that list, but what I do know is that most younger drummers wouldn't give him the time of day over chris adler, while most older, more experienced and professional drummers just give him silent respect for being one of those guys who can just do it RIGHT.


/rant
First of all, excellent point Jazzsnob. Way to think outside the proverbial box. However, I can see where other people are coming from. Also, I think the really important issue here is length of influence. Now I don't know too much about blink, but let's just go from the start of nirvana. We'll say that (rough estimate, probably needs correcting, my apoogies) Grohl has been influencing young people like myself (personally haven't been to influenced by he or barker, but just me) for 15-20ish years now. Barker I'm going to throw out the again rough estimate of 10-15ish. Now, while they are currently influencing the ranks of up and coming drummers, one has to consider that people like Bonham or Copeland have been around since the 70's or so (I'm really bad with dates, I'm really sorry guys), and are still influencing people. So 30 or 40 years later, they are still influences. I have to ask, will Grohl and Barker still be influential in this time? It's hard to tell, but I would venture to say not as much as Bonham and Copeland. Just some random thoughts for you.
Also find interesting in the lack of discussion of Slayer's drummer. While it's clear he's laid a lot of groundwork for the umpteen different genres of metal now, I'm not sure how big he is in the grand scheme of things. With all the talk of Barker being all speed and what not, I guess you kind of have to throw that point out there. Maybe I'm out of line, as I don't consider this guy an influence, but I think that maybe there could've been better choices (whoever mentioned Ginger Baker made some really good points). Sorry for the little essay I just wrote.

[Flamacue]

Funny, I can't stand Ginger Baker. I got one of his CD's, and it makes me cringe to hear him. But I do realize that he is a ground breaker for drummers, and legendary. I just can't stand his style.

I personally don't consider anything Grohl did as influential. He started big in a very influential band. Tommy Lee was HUGE in the 80's, and the Crue was topping charts and selling out every stadium for almost the entire decade. But all Tommy will be recognized for is spinning upside down as part of some elaborate visual. It appealed to all their fans, but few drummers actually consider him a solid influence. I can say that, because when I first started dissecting music and playing drums, bands like Crue, Ratt, Winger, Telsa...were all some of my early influences. But I'd never consider those drummers legends...well, Troy Luccketta definitely could be legendary...for some reason it he didn’t pop out from behind the band enough.

Anyway, my point somewhat coincides with Alex H, in that to be legendary, you have to be an influence beyond your years in the billboard hits...even so much as beyond the grave as it were for some, may those greats RIR (Rest in Rhythm).

[slavetothestix2]

On that matter I believe, if I'm not mistaken, than Virgil Donati was pushing the limits and demonstrating all that way before Lang. Therefore being the one opening doors for everybody in those domains.

nicely put my friend.

[rendezvous_drummer]

Me angry Nah....I have a show tonight and I'm amped....
I just wanted to see if other drummers were surprised by some of the choices as I was....

Wasn't looking for respones like "its an opinion!" " "its dumb when people say why wasn't" yada-yada....not sure I understand where those type are responses are needed but no biggie its all good with me man....

No man I wasn't saying you were angry haha, I just don't understand why people get angry if a drummer isn't on a list.

[Spreggy]

too many young drummers today have no idea of the legacy that came before them. it's all about "who has the biggest kit" or "who can play the fastest" or who the latest emo or death metal flavor of the week is.
Amen brother! Everybody should be sat down in high school and taught all the key players in music on the key instruments, beginning with let's say about the 18th century. One more post about speed/power/blast beats and I'm gonna start drinking, heavily. ;^ )

The list says "25 Legendary Talents Who Changed Drumming". And of course it's got Buddy on the cover, cha-ching baby. I think the only major injustice that springs to mind is the omission of Stewart Copeland. Dave Grohl, well, you know, nobody bats a thousand lol. It's probably still a good read. You coud do a "25 of" for each genre and still get some folks wrankled about it.

[mattsmith]

You know, as younger guys we tend to look at guys from 20-30 years ago as if they were pioneering trendsetters from the caveman era, while I'm always reminded that if anything, we tend to forget the real pioneers who did mega groundbreaking stuff way before videos, arena shows, television or even radio. Here's some guys I've learned more about the past couple of years.

In the 1920s there was a guy named Vic Berton who for a period between 1920 to the late 20s was considered the greatest all around drummer to ever live. He was the drummer for Paul Whiteman /the Led Zeppelin of its time/, managed the great Bix Beiderbecke, encouraged his peers to reduce the size of their bass drums to modern standards, and is often given credit for inventing the hi-hat. Again...he invented the hi-hat. If there were videos of him back in the day we'd probably be talking about him in the same breath as Bonham and Elvin Jones.

While Berton was considered the all around great, Baby Dodds was at the same time the first all around modern practioner of the drum set, and the drum set's first African American superstar with Louis Armstrong, back when that really meant something. He also more than anyone else adjusted the New Orleans flat 4 beat to the 2 beat that created every popular dance for nearly 20 years, including the Charleston.

Chick Webb was the first important 1930s drummer at a time when drummers were king, the musical director of the Savoy Ballroom which created more dances than any club in history,/back at a time when what the drummer did was almost entirely responsible for that/, and was the guy who first popularized ching, dinga, ding on the ride cymbal in 4/4 time, which is pretty much the start of everything.

Then there's a guy named Dee Dee Chandler. I know most of you have never heard of him, and there's a good reason for that. He was popular in the 1890s. Now what was the big deal about him?

As the marching band started to die out as the main source of musical entertainment in New Orleans, more and more groups were asked to reduce their number to adjust to the demand for more indoor dances. A band leader named Jon Robacieux knew that his 5 drummers werent going to cut it loudness wise indoors. So he asked Chandler to get some drawing paper and a welding torch so he could do him a favor.

Yeah you guessed it, Chandler most likely invented the first drum set.

Now...tell me again about Grohl, Carrey, Copeland, and Travis?

[maddrummr]

Amen brother! Everybody should be sat down in high school and taught all the key players in music on the key instruments, beginning with let's say about the 18th century. One more post about speed/power/blast beats and I'm gonna start drinking, heavily. ;^ )



Actually i find this stereotype a bit misleading. I do agree that most of drummers in my school have a close to obsession with metal, speed and stuff. BUT there are the select few; me, one buddy i jam with, and all the jazz band drummers. Well we share our latin grooves and our jazz fills. Its too bad its only the select few of us.

[jazzin']

But Matt, why would we want to know about those guys? They're not in cool bands..hehe

Seriously, that was a very cool post. If we are talking about guys who changed drumming, actually changed the way we play, we simply can't overlook those guys. Unfortunately you're right that with no real records it is difficult for a widespread acknowledgment of their contributions.

To have changed drumming the way some of these guys did was huge, I mean huge!, it is like Parker or Armstrong. What they did was mind-blowing. Listen to recordings before Armstrong and then after and it is difficult to imagine how they did it. Where did it come from?

So when talking on changing drumming we should always remember these guys. Great post!

[Spreggy]

You know, as younger guys we tend to look at guys from 20-30 years ago as if they were pioneering trendsetters from the caveman era, while I'm always reminded that if anything, we tend to forget the real pioneers who did mega groundbreaking stuff way before videos, arena shows, television or even radio. Here's some guys I've learned more about the past couple of years.

In the 1920s there was a guy named Vic Berton who for a period between 1920 to the late 20s was considered the greatest all around drummer to ever live. He was the drummer for Paul Whiteman /the Led Zeppelin of its time/, managed the great Bix Beiderbecke, encouraged his peers to reduce the size of their bass drums to modern standards, and is often given credit for inventing the hi-hat. Again...he invented the hi-hat. If there were videos of him back in the day we'd probably be talking about him in the same breath as Bonham and Elvin Jones.

While Berton was considered the all around great, Baby Dodds was at the same time the first all around modern practioner of the drum set, and the drum set's first African American superstar with Louis Armstrong, back when that really meant something. He also more than anyone else adjusted the New Orleans flat 4 beat to the 2 beat that created every popular dance for nearly 20 years, including the Charleston.

Chick Webb was the first important 1930s drummer at a time when drummers were king, the musical director of the Savoy Ballroom which created more dances than any club in history,/back at a time when what the drummer did was almost entirely responsible for that/, and was the guy who first popularized ching, dinga, ding on the ride cymbal in 4/4 time, which is pretty much the start of everything.

Then there's a guy named Dee Dee Chandler. I know most of you have never heard of him, and there's a good reason for that. He was popular in the 1890s. Now what was the big deal about him?

As the marching band started to die out as the main source of musical entertainment in New Orleans, more and more groups were asked to reduce their number to adjust to the demand for more indoor dances. A band leader named Jon Robacieux knew that his 5 drummers werent going to cut it loudness wise indoors. So he asked Chandler to get some drawing paper and a welding torch so he could do him a favor.

Yeah you guessed it, Chandler most likely invented the first drum set.

Now...tell me again about Grohl, Carrey, Copeland, and Travis?

EXCELLENT post Matt!

maddrummr: you're right, I shouldn't have said it, I violated my own rule of never criticizing other musicians.

[jazzsnob]

I feel where your commin from man...
.
I think your a more mature drummer than I am even thou i'm older than you....I'm still caught up in the "Licks" stage so I probably never was looking for that ingredeint in him....

Either way do you still think of him as someone who belongs on that list....

I don't know if he should be on that list, but I don't even really think the list needs to exist. It's a bunch of arbitrary choices that most people will agree with for the most part. I don't care about it really.

For all the people going "well, it's unfair that they made an opinionated list seem like it's the only one that matters"

That's the point, their job is to convince YOU that they are the authority on drums you need to listen to. Now I love MD, but their success depends on people believing they are the authority on drumming. Same with any drum magazine.

They're good people, but remember that it's all advertising and and if you forget that then they have a hook in your mind and they'll tug whenever they want.

Sorry to get all tinfoil hat there, but seriously, advertising is so scary.

[Disco Stu]

Usually a list like this is prefaced with the criteria they used to make their selections. It would be helpful if we could see this, then some of the choices might make more sense. But all we have to go on is the title and the list. I agree that some of these drummers shouldn't be on a list of those who "changed drumming," at least not ahead of some others. See mattsmith's post above for examples of who really changed drumming. But how many magazines will they sell covering Vic Berton and Dee Dee Chandler as opposed to Travis Barker and Dave Grohl? And that's really the problem. Modern Drummer could have produced a great piece with this premise by really delving into the history of drumming and highlighting the real key evolutionary changes. Instead, it appears they chose the names that are big sellers and ended up half-educating the reader on the topic. But that kind of compromise probably occurs at any publication where journalism is beholden to profit.

[jazzin']

That's the point, their job is to convince YOU that they are the authority on drums you need to listen to. Now I love MD, but their success depends on people believing they are the authority on drumming. Same with any drum magazine.

They're good people, but remember that it's all advertising and and if you forget that then they have a hook in your mind and they'll tug whenever they want.

Sorry to get all tinfoil hat there, but seriously, advertising is so scary.

Haha right on Jazzsnob. We do sometimes forget that these guys are a business. The main goal of business is to make money. To do that, as you said, they have to convince us they are THE authority. As Discostu said, they would also have criteria they must meet. 'Ok guys, you have to put in Barker somewhere. All the kids love him!'.

Sad but true.

[Ploum©]

But that kind of compromise probably occurs at any publication where journalism is beholden to profit.

Those lists are completely useless and cost zero work from the "journalists".
It's a costless way to fill blank space, to get something controversial on the front page and to get the Internet all riled up for free advertising.
Music journalism shouldn't be taken that seriously in the first place, especially in magazines who only appeal to musicians.
Most drum magazines I see are poorly written and presented, and the actual content is disposable in the age of the Internet.
The gear and album reviews are always positive, too.
I'm really considering dropping music mags to only buy instructional methods.

[jazzsnob]

Those lists are completely useless and cost zero work from the "journalists".
It's a costless way to fill blank space, to get something controversial on the front page and to get the Internet all riled up for free advertising.
Music journalism shouldn't be taken that seriously in the first place, especially in magazines who only appeal to musicians.
Most drum magazines I see are poorly written and presented, and the actual content is disposable in the age of the Internet.
The gear and album reviews are always positive, too.
I'm really considering dropping music mags to only buy instructional methods.

Well, just because I know MD is a business that needs to make money doesn't mean I hate them. It's just good to look at the big picture. I was reading MD and a guitar player friend of mine made an awesome point, "So Zach, what kinds of music are drummers supposed to listen to this month?"

He has a valid point. I enjoy the reading but I always remember that MD doesn't equal success, and someone who isn't in MD isn't a failure. It's just a business that put's out a publication with information I generally like but can easily ignore.

[Muckster]

[QUOTE=mattsmith;300479]
In the 1920s there was a guy named Vic Berton who for a period between 1920 to the late 20s was considered the greatest all around drummer to ever live. He was the drummer for Paul Whiteman /the Led Zeppelin of its time/, managed the great Bix Beiderbecke, encouraged his peers to reduce the size of their bass drums to modern standards, and is often given credit for inventing the hi-hat. Again...he invented the hi-hat. If there were videos of him back in the day we'd probably be talking about him in the same breath as Bonham and Elvin Jones.QUOTE]

He Invented the Hi Hat?

Always thought that was developed by Krupa with Zildjian's help. Please enlighten me.

[mattsmith]

[QUOTE=mattsmith;300479]
In the 1920s there was a guy named Vic Berton who for a period between 1920 to the late 20s was considered the greatest all around drummer to ever live. He was the drummer for Paul Whiteman /the Led Zeppelin of its time/, managed the great Bix Beiderbecke, encouraged his peers to reduce the size of their bass drums to modern standards, and is often given credit for inventing the hi-hat. Again...he invented the hi-hat. If there were videos of him back in the day we'd probably be talking about him in the same breath as Bonham and Elvin Jones.QUOTE]

He Invented the Hi Hat?

Always thought that was developed by Krupa with Zildjian's help. Please enlighten me.

Well I know that you're knowledgable of old school guys, so these names will be familiar to a guy like yourself.

Krupa helped to bring flexibilty to the hi-hat pedal and popularized its height elevation to present standards to where it could be played with a stick if desired. That was his cooperation with Zildjian and others. And Krupa took his idea about stand height from Dave Tough, who was a little older than Krupa and his more enlightened peer with the Austin High Gang. As you know Tough not Krupa was supposed to be on those famous Chicago recordings, but he was supposed to be doing something else. For all practical purposes Tough was the first fully enlightened jazz drummer. He studied every kind of academic pursuit, wrote articles on many things unrelated to music and was a kind of gadget freak. He was always looking at ways to improve his gear.

All of the Krupa and Tough crowd were worshippers of local legend Bix Beiderbecke, and his manager was the alchoholic, disorganized but genius Berton, who was really a gadget freak. He had thought about the idea of the 2 cymbals clamped together by a pedal while he was in the army during WWI.

See at the time Berton was putting together a concept where he was going to try to play jazz tympani if you can believe that. I think he called it Hot Tympani. But he didn't want to use a bass drum to keep tempo because he thought that would be too much vibrating sound. When he would practice he had gotten into the habit of having an army cymbal guy play with him on cymbals when he practiced. He liked how the cymbals cut through the tympani sound. Berton was given these kinds of luxuries because he worked for John Phillip Sousa, who thought Berton was the greatest classical drummer in the world. So if Berton wanted something silly like a cymbal accompaniest, he got it, even during war time.

This cymbal idea stuck with Berton, and he knew that a day would come when there wouldn't be a cymbal player around. So he got to thinking how to do it all himself. The result was a hi-hat looking deal that was only a few inches off the ground, since the idea of using drumsticks on it wasn't part of his concept, so it never occured to him. Now my dad and others claim that many people were coming up with a hi-hat idea at the same time for one reason or the other. But in Berton's case, he often gets the credit because he was who he was, and he heavily influenced other future greats, including Tough, and Krupa who knew him as a local drumming god.

Krupa and Tough supposedly first saw Berton playing his invention at a Chicago dance hall when they were just very young kids probably around 1925. Berton had already realized that his new invention was going to be great with a drum set. The story was that there was this line of drummers who had heard about the hi-hat and had showed up to the gig to sit in and try it out for themselves. Supposedly it was so addictive to the drummers there that they didn't want to leave so Berton could play his gig. After that everybody wanted one. So I guess it would be obvious why Krupa and Tough would be important in the development of it. Seeing the great Berton play that pioneer hi-hat must have made a big impression on a couple of kids with the talent of those two guys.

I was helped with this post, by my dad who is a known expert of 1920s Chicago Jazz.

[Muckster]

Matt,

Thanks for the history lesson, very cool.

[LinearDrummer]

Modern Drummer could have produced a great piece with this premise by really delving into the history of drumming and highlighting the real key evolutionary changes. Instead, it appears they chose the names that are big sellers and ended up half-educating the reader on the topic.

Yeah! somebody gets IT....

Jazzsnob - I don't think they are an authority but Modern Drummer has such a big voice that this should have been a platform to give credit to some of the over-looked drummers who deserve credit for their contributions to drumming community....

If Berton is truely the one credtied for development of the hi-hat as Mattsmith stated then he is truely a "Legend who changed drumming".....that is opinion based on facts...

If the drummers of James Brown were the first to record using ghost strokes (not 100% sure but just in theory) or Louie being the first to perform with two bass drums or Cobham playing open style then they should be honored....

No hating - they are good players but I don't see anything Grohl or Barker changed in the way we appraoch drumming...

[rendezvous_drummer]

Where the hell is Joey Jordinson!? He rokz!

[LinearDrummer]

Where the hell is Joey Jordinson!? He rokz!

SMH in disbelief...

Thats a low blow man :P

[nickg]

great stuff matt...thanks for a lot of that info!!!

[the gayge]

I can't say that I know of anything that Travis Barker did to change the way everyone plays drums, but he created a legion of clones whether they admit it or not. Bill Stevenson is the grandfather of pop-punk and as far as I can see Travis Barker is the dear old dad.

Mattsmith, incredible posts. Thank you.
-aj

[rendezvous_drummer]

SMH in disbelief...

Thats a low blow man :P

Hahaha I love the tool of sarcasm...you know i'm joking! But what does SMH mean?

[michael drums]

Hahaha I love the tool of sarcasm...you know i'm joking! But what does SMH mean?

Hey rendezvous! How are ya? The answer to your question is...Shake My Head. That's what SMH stands for...Play On! ;-)

[khanedeliac]

Amen brother! Everybody should be sat down in high school and taught all the key players in music on the key instruments, beginning with let's say about the 18th century. One more post about speed/power/blast beats and I'm gonna start drinking, heavily. ;^ )


Sorry buddy, I have become so dilusioned with that subject matter, I beat you to the spiked punch... 'hiccup'

Mitch Mitchell anyone?
Sorry but no one was playing drums in rock setups like that before him.

[jazzin']

Yeah! somebody gets IT....

Jazzsnob - I don't think they are an authority but Modern Drummer has such a big voice that this should have been a platform to give credit to some of the over-looked drummers who deserve credit for their contributions to drumming community....

If Berton is truely the one credtied for development of the hi-hat as Mattsmith stated then he is truely a "Legend who changed drumming".....that is opinion based on facts...

If the drummers of James Brown were the first to record using ghost strokes (not 100% sure but just in theory) or Louie being the first to perform with two bass drums or Cobham playing open style then they should be honored....

No hating - they are good players but I don't see anything Grohl or Barker changed in the way we appraoch drumming...

Of course if they went along that line of 'who truly changed drumming', nearly all of the modern guys on that list wouldn't be on it. They haven't done a whole lot in terms of dramatically changing the instrument. Steve Smith etc. wouldn't be on it. Shouldn't be on it. If those guys weren't on it everyone would go nuts. 'Hey, this list is stupid *so and so* isn't on it and he totally kicks ass!' are probably what some of the letters the editor would be reading.
As has already been mentioned by a number of people, that would be a bad business strategy.

[gusty]

'Hey, this list is stupid *so and so* isn't on it and he totally kicks ass!' are probably what some of the letters the editor would be reading.

That kind of sounds like a comment off youtube...

[Ploum©]

I was reading MD and a guitar player friend of mine made an awesome point, "So Zach, what kinds of music are drummers supposed to listen to this month?"

That's nicely put. It's still sad that those magazines (I can't speak for MD, but the French mags for mainstream musicians) can't hire people with good writing skills.
There's probably no money in this.

It always reads like either:
A: some overly excited kid trying to give props to his favourite new drummer, complete with hyperbolic praise.
B: an extremely normative, consensual and cynical viewpoint on music based on what's popular. This can actually be useful for the younger ones, but with all the resource on the Internet that's available for free...

[NUTHA JASON]

by putting such a list together MD have really ...

http://www.barkers-int.co.uk/images/shootft.jpg

[Spence]

Well, Grohl was the reason I started playing drums. I still love his style and musicality to this day. However, I think inspiring people to take up the drums is something completely different from 'changing drumming' forever. I guess the same can be said about Travis Barker. Both have influenced a lot of young people to take up the drums, but it's not changing drumming.

Maybe Grohl should be high up on this kind of list, but not in the top 25. I suppose one could compare him to Ringo, in that he plays what is needed for the song, they are just different kind of songs. And I know Ringo didn't play the drums on some recordings, before someone mentions it.

[LinearDrummer]

nearly all of the modern guys on that list wouldn't be on it. They haven't done a whole lot in terms of dramatically changing the instrument. Steve Smith etc. wouldn't be on it.

You got a point there....
As incredible as Steve Smith is has he really done anything that changed the way we approached drumming ala Elvin and Tony....


By posting a Top "Whatever" drummers list I think I -


http://www.barkers-int.co.uk/images/shootft.jpg

I give up.....
Its ALL too subjective....

[Drum-Head]

That's nicely put. It's still sad that those magazines (I can't speak for MD, but the French mags for mainstream musicians) can't hire people with good writing skills.
There's probably no money in this.

It always reads like either:
A: some overly excited kid trying to give props to his favorite new drummer, complete with hyperbolic praise.
B: an extremely normative, consensual and cynical viewpoint on music based on what's popular. This can actually be useful for the younger ones, but with all the resource on the Internet that's available for free...

True, Batteur Magazine is a joke. They just recycle the same damn stupid questions in every interview.

"You play really fast doubles on the intro of that song. So, how do you get so fast, and moreover how long have you been playing double pedal?"

Argh!

[druid]

no Peter Criss..?!?!....Peter Criss....????????

[Legacyrik]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the more famous you are, the more people watch your playing, and are thereforce INFLUENCED by it. barker is famous, he influences alot of young drummers. I personally dont like him, but alot of people do. HENCE hes on the list.

That's not exactly true. There is plenty of popular crap out there, actually most of the popular stuff is crap. Hey go knock yourself out with that as your influence.

Also, are you trying to say someone like Stewart Copeland, from The Police, didn't touch quite a few people in his day.

Also whoever said something to the fact that a person was looking at it from a drummers perspective.... Uh, wasn't this in a drummer's magazine.

you know it's like the basketball all-star game. Popularity contest to some extent.

[Muckster]

I agree that the list should actually only be made up of a few drummers. Influencing is one thing but changing drumming is quite another. I think MD fubared here.

By the way, Stewart Copeland should not be any more prevalent then Travis Barker as far as "changing" drumming. Neither one of these guys "changed" drumming.

[Muckster]

The only thing Peter Criss changed was Anton Figg's financial status.

[anp27]

What makes a 'drum god' anyway? Popularity? Wealth? Talent?

[rendezvous_drummer]

What makes a 'drum god' anyway? Popularity? Wealth? Talent?

A drummer who can cover White Stripes tunes.

[anp27]

A drummer who can cover White Stripes tunes.

Really? So I guess none of the 25 drummers on the list qualify..

[rendezvous_drummer]

Ye got that right!! Gadd has nothing on White.

[anp27]

Ye got that right!! Gadd has nothing on White.

rendezvouz_drummer, I like you.

[rendezvous_drummer]

rendezvouz_drummer, I like you.

I'm honoured man haha

[anp27]

I'm honoured man haha

haha well.. I'm not actually a man..

[michael drums]

haha well.. I'm not actually a man..

And I'm NOT actually surprised!! Hee...hee...Play On! ;-)

[michael drums]

A drummer who can cover White Stripes tunes.

The WHITE STRIPES???

Hee...hee...You are funny!! ;-)

Good sense of humor, rendezvous...Play On!

That chick drummer blows away Gadd...Yea right!!!!

SMH in disabelief!!

laughter continues....

[rendezvous_drummer]

haha well.. I'm not actually a man..

MAN! That's the second time i've done that now. I made the same mistake with Bradydrums haha.

[joeysnare]

man i wonder who picked this list,im a huge slayer fan and even i don't think one of my all time fav's (dave lombardo) belongs on that list. go figure.

[photon]

A list is a list....for what they are worth they at least generate a great deal of discussion and controversy...no two peoples lists would be the same. I would think they do sell magazines though. Personally I love those list issues...

[Mr. A.C. Perkins]

Hey Class A! I would agree with you about Porcaro. He inspired alot of todays' drummers AND the drummers during his time in the 70's and 80's. But I believe Lang and Mayer are STILL in the process of being "legends who changed drumming". And they're 2 of my modern day favorites right now!

I'm also surprised about Barker being on this list, as well as Dave Grohl! I believe these 2 are ALSO still in the process of "changing drumming" and shouldn't be on this list(yet)...Play On! ;-)

Some people are more known for their impact on the drumming community, than on their actual physical abilities. Travis Barker's more a celebrity to the non-drummer, but a great player. DAVE GROHL IS A LEGEND. Nobody made more people want to be a drummer in the 90's (and believe they could) than Dave Grohl, and I'm not even a Nirvana fan, in the slightest.

[Mr. A.C. Perkins]

no Peter Criss..?!?!....Peter Criss....????????

LOL hate to rain on the parade, but ALL of the players in Kiss were not very good players, that band is a shtick, a good one, albeit.

LOL Meg White, I'd be a drum god if I could stay awake long enough to play that set *yawn*

[the skin man]

Nobody ever raised the question of whether or not Dave Lombardo should be on there or not I don't think. I'm not saying he shouldn't because a lot of really fast double bass stuff is really popular - but wasn't he just one of many? I'm really not sure because I'm not into death metal very much although the drumming is fun to watch.

actually, I just noticed someone did:

man i wonder who picked this list,im a huge slayer fan and even i don't think one of my all time fav's (dave lombardo) belongs on that list. go figure.

But yeah, I'm not sure why they put him on there.

[King Of Drums]

Umm I definitely don't think you can call Barker or Grohl drum gods... I don't see how they had a big impact on drumming either. They were just members of important bands. I think that Louis Bellson, Ian Paice and Ginger baker should be on that list for sure. Stuart copeland too. Wow that list is missing a load of great drummers.

[fourstringdrums]

Umm I definitely don't think you can call Barker or Grohl drum gods... I don't see how they had a big impact on drumming either. They were just members of important bands. I think that Louis Bellson, Ian Paice and Ginger baker should be on that list for sure. Stuart copeland too. Wow that list is missing a load of great drummers.

Considering how many kids looked up to Dave Grohl in the 90's and how many look up to Barker now, they both had a big impact in the drumming world. Any time you're people around the world for whatever reason while playing your instrument, you're making an impact.

[King Of Drums]

Considering how many kids looked up to Dave Grohl in the 90's and how many look up to Barker now, they both had a big impact in the drumming world. Any time you're people around the world for whatever reason while playing your instrument, you're making an impact.

Well I mean a big impact when it actually comes to playing the drums. I don't really find anything all that interesting or inspiring about their playing. I agree they had a huge impact when it came to inspiring people to play the drums. But to call them drum gods.. putting them in the company of Buddy Rich, Billy Cobham, Steve Gadd, John Bonham etc...IMO I don't see how they could be viewed as legends by drummers. As I said their are a lot more great drummers who had an impact on the instrument as well as inspiring others to take up the drums.

[fourstringdrums]

Well I mean a big impact when it actually comes to playing the drums. I don't really find anything all that interesting or inspiring about their playing. I agree they had a huge impact when it came to inspiring people to play the drums. But to call them drum gods.. putting them in the company of Buddy Rich, Billy Cobham, Steve Gadd, John Bonham etc. I find that sickening. As I said their are a lot more great drummers who had an impact on the instrument as well as inspiring others to take up the drums.

I guess MD just wanted to be diverse and include as many different styles as they could. They couldn't very well put 70% jazz drummers, 20% funk and 10% rock. If they did then there would be people complaining that people from the neglected styles weren't mentioned. It's a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation.

[Mr. A.C. Perkins]

Although I don't completely agree with the "14 year old drummer", I believe your statement about not paying attention to him is a bit pompous on your part. It is an opinion, simply that. If he said Bonham is a great influence to drummer's (which I think he is), would you pay attention to that statement? Perhaps, but it seems like you may because he agrees with many (not all) others as well as yourself.

He does have a great point about Barker. Although I am not a Blink fan, he seems to have been a great influence on many kids. A custom cymbals seem to have been skyrocketing in popularity because of him, as well as his set up of drums. (low toms etc).


As for Lineardrummer's ideas of Ziggy et all being on the list. I believe he is looking at it from a "drummer's point of view". I had no idea who these guys were before I started playing drums. I would say the list is made up generally of the most popular dudes as a whole and not necessarily the most talented, if you can actually measure talent. Since a guy who doesn't do claves and all the Thomas Lang type stuff on an album, does that make him any less talented than Lang? Can Ringo play as fast as Jordison? My guess is probably. May not sound too great doing 350 bpm's on Strawberry Fields, though :)

Anyway, cool topic for discussion.

Peace.

Tony here puts it best... good thing he doesn't have a haircut to block his thinking processes :P

[jangus]

It's a real shame how Joe Morello is overlooked. Buddy Rich's favorite drummer.

[LinearDrummer]

For what its worth I beleive they did a follow up list....
Probably from e-mails sayin "I can't believe (----------) isn't on that list!" :-)

Here's the list (in order of number of votes): Louie Bellson, Stewart Copeland, Jeff Porcaro, Bill Bruford, Joe Morello, Simon Phillips, Mike Portnoy, Carl Palmer, Danny Carey, Charlie Watts, Carter Beauford, Ian Paice, Kenny Aronoff, Chad Smith, Bernard Purdie, Steve Jordan, Virgil Donati, Shelly Manne, Zigaboo Modeliste, Josh Freese, and Thomas Lang.

[MilfordCubicle]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the more famous you are, the more people watch your playing, and are thereforce INFLUENCED by it. barker is famous, he influences alot of young drummers. I personally dont like him, but alot of people do. HENCE hes on the list.

I think this discussion went wrong somewhere. This list displays some people who are influential like Barker because of aesthetics, or band popularity/fame. That does not make you a God by any means.The list should contain people who are famous in the drumming community. They may not be famous among non-drummers, but what does that matter. Non-drummers aren't exactly changing drumming, are they.

So what if you didn't know who Modeliste, Stubblefield, or Porcaro were before you started drumming? You know who they are now and they influence your playing. Isn't that what the list should be about, those who are famous in the drumming community, not a list containing some obvious Drum legends, and then adding a few by asking random people who their favorite drummer is, because that seems to be how Barker and Grohl got on that list. Nothing against them, they are great drummers, but I don't see how they changed drumming. The list isn't about who got you to buy A Custom cymbals or set up your kit a certain way. I really don't see how that changes drumming.

MC

[Kirsh]

i agree with milfordcubicle, this is a drumming magazine it shouldn't focus on popularity. "legends who change drumming" i think they would need to add "in a positive way" as i don't see anything new that barker and grohl, and by new i mean some evolution in the art of our instrument. they may have attracted many people to their popular music but lets be honest here blink fans dont know who the hell was krupa or garibaldi they remain shut in their music style, i have no problem with that but this drummers dont seem to have opened any doors at all. on the otherside you have Morello, Copeland, Louie Bellsom, Jeff Porcaro,
Bill Bruford and others. definately they have been a bigger influence and far more innovative that those 2

[timebandit]

Dave Grohl...........a drummer, oh please tell me your joking!

[balboa]

THIS LIST IS A POPULARITY CONTEST. they might as well said eddie vanhalen, hendrix, ozzy, steve tyler, george bush, john f kennedy etc...

[wy yung]

MD is not what it once was. I began collecting it around 1979 and it was tremendous. Especially during the early 80's. Now it's all about product placement. Some issues are ok. But when Ron died and the focus went to money more so than drumming, it took a dive.

That said I do like the Jojo issue. Some good stuff in there.

As for the book? It is incorrectly named. It should read "influenced drumming" as opposed to "changed drumming". Barker certainly has not changed drumming. Nor have others in the book. But they have influenced other and especially younger people to become drummers.

[Old Doc Yak]

Well, I wasn't going to write anything on this topic but I just couldn't help not doing it. I'm an old guy and I'll probably get a lot of flak for this but.... If you're gonna talk about someone who changed drumming not just for drummers but for all musicians and the publlic, there is only one - Gene Krupa. When I was a kid growing up in the 40's, almost everybody knew who Krupa was. Didn't matter if they loved or hated music or jazz, they knew his name and his face. My dad, who didn't like jazz, always got a kick out of listening to records and broadcasts with Gene. He always said he never heard anyone play drums like that before. He always laughed about how the audience would go nuts the minute Gene would raise a stick. After Gene, nothing about drumming was the same. Buddy RIch said it perfectly on the Tonight Show when Gene passed away: "Every drummer in the world should stand, turn toward Yonkers and bow, because if it wasn't for Gene we'd all just be timekeepers."

[dale w miller]

i must disagree with Barker and Dave grohl in that list...specially dave..i think it's tight how he's a succesful musician switchin instruments and bands and being so huge..but his drumming in nirvana was not impressive nor inspiring for me at any circumstances. and as far as travis...it's w/e to me..i wouldn't call him a drum god but i wouldnt call him a crappy drummer either

I agree, they are both very talented drummers but I don't think they changed drumming. Grohl was in a band that is credited for the birth of grunge but does that make him a drum god?
Dave Grohl...........a drummer, oh please tell me your joking!

i can't believe that any of you truly appreciate Grohl's playing and not think he belongs on that list. he was this generations Bonham.

no stewart is just wrong in my opinion.

[king fail]

much as i despise him and his playing, travis barker belongs on this list.
this isn't the "best drummers" list, no, travis has certainly influenced drumming. you now have 12 year olds running around hitting everything hard with sticks and wanting to be covered in tatoos. and while i'm barking up that tree, you might as well through jordison up there too; the number of angsty teenagers who refuse to believe that he is anything but the god of speed and music defies belief.

golly, what a depressing world we live in.

[jay norem]

Why isn't Kenny Clarke on this list? Now there's a guy who actually did change drumming!

[paramac]

[QUOTE=mattsmith;300479]

In the 1920s there was a guy named Vic Berton who for a period between 1920 to the late 20s was considered the greatest all around drummer to ever live. He was the drummer for Paul Whiteman /the Led Zeppelin of its time/, managed the great Bix Beiderbecke, encouraged his peers to reduce the size of their bass drums to modern standards, and is often given credit for inventing the hi-hat. Again...he invented the hi-hat. If there were videos of him back in the day we'd probably be talking about him in the same breath as Bonham and Elvin Jones.


Hmm.. I was always told from many older guys that it was Papa Jo Jones who invented the hi hat and that he took his idea of raising up the "Low Boy" which I believe it was called before the two cymbals were raised up and got it pantented and then hooked up with the Camco Company and with his idea and their technology, the hi hat was born.. Hmm.....Gotta wonder.. Update..I was checking a bit online and I found this on Wikipedia....News to me..........


Initial versions of the hi-hat were called clangers (well good puppet cartoon), which were small cymbals mounted onto a bass drum rim and struck with an arm on the bass drum pedal. Then came snow shoes, (must be cold to wear) which were two hinged boards with cymbals on the ends that were clashed together. Next was the low-boy(no comment) or low-hat, similar to a modern hi-hat stand, only with cymbals close to the ground. Hi-hats that were raised and could be played by hand as well as foot may have been developed around 1926 by Barney Walberg of the drum accessory company Walberg and Auge.[1]

[aydee]

So who would be considered the drummer who most influenced double bass drumming?

Louie Bellson is the only one can think of, but he was in the jazz idiom and probably had little to do with the evolution of Metal music???

[ledzepjb]

Hey guys,i dont wanna spend my whole day reading this thread, so im not sure if this has already been posted but here I go:

there are a bunch of things that i agree with but even more that i dont. But I must admit that I bought both magasines(the second version) because i found it intresting to read their biographies(the drummers) and why the writers thought that they should be on the list etc. And to be honest with you,i wouldnt really enjoy having all of my favorite drummers of that list because i already know everything about them hence i wouldnt learn anything new by purchasing the magasines.

Also, the point of publishing the magasine is so it can sell, not so it can satisfy everybodies opinion. So of course their gonna put Barker and Grohl 'cause they want the younger drummers to buy it!

[Ian Williams]

Hello, All.

Someone said: "Carmine Appice set the foundation for heavy drumming ... before Bonham,
before Ian Paice... before anyone else." - Rick Van Horn, 1999 ModernDrummer magazine.

Cheers,

[The Levee Breaker]

that's why you shouldn't pay attention to what a 14 year old drummer has to say.

I think it's a bit harsh Nickg, as everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I don't agree with his comment either.

Bonham an over rated drummer.!? Hmmm? Are you serious?

Travis Barker is THE most over rated drummer in the world, by a long stretch, and believe me, he couldn't touch Bonham, Ever.

People say "Travis is so cool! He's so creative because he uses a small kit" etc. Rubbish!

People like Bonham used 4 and 5 piece kits thirty years ago and came up with some much more creative, unique ideas.

So that's why Bonham is a Drum God, and also why Travis IS NOT

[jay norem]

CHANGED drumming, right? Not who's your fave-rave.
Meaning: drummers played a certain way, had a certain approach to the kit, then this guy came along and radically changed that approach, to the extent that everybody pretty much started bringing his innovations into their own playing. And the first guy who springs to my mind in that regard is Kenny Clarke. ALL jazz drummers play how they play now because of what Kenny Clarke innovated in the early days of bebop.

[wy yung]

Explain, please.

(Edit) And from this very site:
"Kenny Clarke was a highly influential if subtle drummer who helped to define bebop drumming. He was the first to shift the time-keeping rhythm from the bass drum to the ride cymbal, an innovation that has been copied and utilized by a countless number of drummers since the early '40s."
Now I would definitely call that CHANGING drumming.

I agree 100%. The problem is that his name does not sell copy. And that is the bottom line, money. I think this is why we see the same drummers across the covers of a variety of drum mags during certain periods. They have record company backing and publicists selling them in support of recent record releases. Kenny, being long dead, does not enjoy the same. It's a great pity to see what is happening. Oh well, we can't avoid change I suppose.

[jay norem]

I agree 100%. The problem is that his name does not sell copy. And that is the bottom line, money. I think this is why we see the same drummers across the covers of a variety of drum mags during certain periods. They have record company backing and publicists selling them in support of recent record releases. Kenny, being long dead, does not enjoy the same. It's a great pity to see what is happening. Oh well, we can't avoid change I suppose.

Yes, maybe, but really. Everybody knows what Kenny Clarke's contribution to drumming is and was. Well, obviously not everybody, because why should they? It's jazz that doesn't sell copy. I mean let's be real here. Jazz doesn't matter much in the very country where it was originated.
Europe, Japan, man they love jazz. America? It's a dead duck.
Why would anyone even want to pursue a career as a jazz drummer? I mean, you'll never be a big star, rich, famous and getting free drum kits as a jazz drummer.
Still the music somehow keeps living. But the people who appreciate what Kenny Clarke and his contemporaries brought to jazz drumming are dying out. And maybe that's just the way it goes. Hell, that is the way it goes.

I'll just say one more thing. Travis Barker has done nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, to change drumming. He does what everyone else does, what every rock drummer has done for decades. He plays what the style is now. Maybe he's very good at it, but Travis Barker is not an innovator.

[RobertM]

I agree that the list should actually only be made up of a few drummers. Influencing is one thing but changing drumming is quite another. I think MD fubared here.

By the way, Stewart Copeland should not be any more prevalent then Travis Barker as far as "changing" drumming. Neither one of these guys "changed" drumming.

If you seriously believe Stewart Copeland did not do anything to change drumming, then you know *very little* about rock drumming history, influences, and styles. Several well-known drummers, including recently Jojo Mayer, have noted how Copeland's snare sound and hi-hat work changed rock drumming as it transitioned from '70s era rock through post-punk into new wave/pop rock.

Note: Travis Barker is nowhere near Copeland's league.

[Steamer]

I'm always pleasantly surprised that the younger players coming up who fall in love with jazz and jazz drumming do know who contributed what to the instrument from starting with Baby Dodds then moving ahead to Kenny, Art, Elvin, Max, Tony etc.. the real innnovators.

I've never followed the commercial press on the subject of drumming so personally speaking I could care less who they think the real innovators are since i'm only interested in the recorded history and playing aspects regarding the instrument. People interested in following the history of jazz drumming in direct relation to the music doing their homework to see what and who made it what it is today will unravel the truth like many of the younger drummers i've had contact with over the years have done for the love of the understanding the history of the craft.

Not a hopeless situation yet in my view especially if you ignore following the commercial press and trends on the subject and focus on the incredilble body of recorded music and drum related musical performances at one's disposal as a guide to discover the legends who changed drumming.

[percusboy]

Explain, please.

(Edit) And from this very site:
"Kenny Clarke was a highly influential if subtle drummer who helped to define bebop drumming. He was the first to shift the time-keeping rhythm from the bass drum to the ride cymbal, an innovation that has been copied and utilized by a countless number of drummers since the early '40s."
Now I would definitely call that CHANGING drumming.

maybe the problem is mine in that I'm just not interested or fascinated enough with history to try to distill 'THE FIRST' guy to play on the ride. I just don't agree. I think what happened, as it does with MUSIC, not DRUMMING, is that the instrument matured, the music matured and MANY of the great jazz drummers started experimenting with expanding their pallet of what was considered time. I've read articles where the indisputable evidence that Klook played FIRST on the ride was indeed disputed.

To me this is much too binary a discussion.

[percusboy]

I'm always pleasantly surprised that the younger players coming up who fall in love with jazz and jazz drumming do know who contributed what to the instrument from starting with Baby Dodds then moving ahead to Kenny, Art, Elvin, Max, Tony etc.. the real innnovators.

I've never followed the commercial press on the subject of drumming so personally speaking I could care less who they think the real innovators are since i'm only interested in the recorded history and playing aspects regarding the instrument. People interested in following the history of jazz drumming in direct relation to the music doing their homework to see what and who made it what it is today will unravel the truth like many of the younger drummers i've had contact with over the years have done for the love of the understanding the history of the craft.

Not a hopeless situation yet in my view especially if you ignore following the commercial press and trends on the subject and focus on the incredilble body of recorded music and drum related musical performances at one's disposal as a guide to discover the legends who changed drumming.

I think this is the exact attitude of why jazz sells less than 1 percent of the recorded music in the world. So focused on the past, so obsessed with history. The young players of today have to play with such a feeling of 2 strikes with a third on the way if they don't pay homage to to every player who came before. Credit every lick... That came from Tony, That came from Elvin... Here's one from Jack!

It's a done debate. jazz is now modern classical music. We're praying to dead people all the time just like the classical musicians do and look what's happening there. The only genre in worse shape than jazz...

fetishism for the dead... It's killing the music.

Why can't we just acknowledge the great players of long ago and not PRAY in reverence?

[Drumsword]

How come I didn't make the cut?..*Shakes head in disbelief*

[intooder]

How come I didn't make the cut?..*Shakes head in disbelief*
Now you too can become a drum god for two simple payments of $5.99 (http://www.moderndrummer.com/books_detail/d//400002196) and $29.99 (http://www.amazon.com/Photoshop-Digital-Photographers-Voices-Matter/dp/0321501918/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219084058&sr=8-1) each.

[Steamer]

I think this is the exact attitude of why jazz sells less than 1 percent of the recorded music in the world. So focused on the past, so obsessed with history. The young players of today have to play with such a feeling of 2 strikes with a third on the way if they don't pay homage to to every player who came before. Credit every lick... That came from Tony, That came from Elvin... Here's one from Jack!

It's a done debate. jazz is now modern classical music. We're praying to dead people all the time just like the classical musicians do and look what's happening there. The only genre in worse shape than jazz...

fetishism for the dead... It's killing the music.

Why can't we just acknowledge the great players of long ago and not PRAY in reverence?

Boy you missed my point by a ROYAL mile. All the great players young and old pay homage to the forefathers of the instrument and it's innovators which does not mean they are stuck in the past only moving forward into new ground based on carrying on with what has been laid down as a firm foundation and starting point to spring off of from the past. Nothing comes out of a nowhere so learn to walk before you run for any pursuit especially if you want to have a deep understanding and concept of jazz drumming in this case.

I live and perform jazz professionally in the present based off a knowledge and respect and understanding of what came before me not for licks but to have a good conceptual foundation of approaching the music and for continually breaking new ground within it. Work's for me. Other's mileage may vary on the subject.

[jay norem]

Why can't we just acknowledge the great players of long ago and not PRAY in reverence?

I would definitely hope that this is exactly what we're doing. The whole point of playing jazz is to "find your own line," not to mimic someone else's.

[Steamer]

I would definitely hope that this is exactly what we're doing. The whole point of playing jazz is to "find your own line," not to mimic someone else's.

Exactly Jay but you have to have a firm grasp of the key elements and reference points to start with or your doomed to failer having no depth to your "new" jazz concept having nothing to spring new fruit from at present. Very empty and hollow jazz barrel in my view.

Walk before you run....

[jay norem]

Exactly Jay but you have to have a grasp on the key reference points to start with or your doomed to failer having no depth to "your" jazz concept and nothing to spring new fruit from at present. Very empty and hollow jazz barrel in my view.

Walk before you run....

True, true...we agree.

[percusboy]

I would definitely hope that this is exactly what we're doing. The whole point of playing jazz is to "find your own line," not to mimic someone else's.

but thats exactly what isn't happening in jazz... jazz is all about the past. You can point out any musician you want. I know there is talent happening now... i know i know...
It's the culture I'm talking about. even the great players of today can't stop yapping about the past. I got this from Tony! blah blah... I'm so sick of it. Read Tony interviews, I have. He doesn't just blow on and on about Max and Papa Jo. It's so disfunctional that I can't bear to read any interviews anymore.

[percusboy]

Boy you missed my point by a ROYAL mile. All the great players young and old pay homage to the forefathers of the instrument and it's innovators which does not mean they are stuck in the past only moving forward into new ground based on carrying on with what has been laid down as a firm foundation and starting point to spring off of from the past. Nothing comes out of a nowhere so learn to walk before you run for any pursuit especially if you want to have a deep understanding and concept of jazz drumming in this case.

I live and perform jazz professionally in the present based off a knowledge and respect and understanding of what came before me not for licks but to have a good conceptual foundation of approaching the music and for continually breaking new ground within it. Work's for me. Other's mileage may vary on the subject.

with all due respect, and I mean that. I don't think I did. I respectfully suggest you ready what you wrote again. It's all in there I think. I doubt you'll agree, nobody changes their own opinions around here I've noticed. Just an observation, not an attack.

[percusboy]

Boy you missed my point by a ROYAL mile. All the great players young and old pay homage to the forefathers of the instrument and it's innovators which does not mean they are stuck in the past only moving forward into new ground based on carrying on with what has been laid down as a firm foundation and starting point to spring off of from the past. Nothing comes out of a nowhere so learn to walk before you run for any pursuit especially if you want to have a deep understanding and concept of jazz drumming in this case.

I live and perform jazz professionally in the present based off a knowledge and respect and understanding of what came before me not for licks but to have a good conceptual foundation of approaching the music and for continually breaking new ground within it. Work's for me. Other's mileage may vary on the subject.

one more point... paying homage is fine. obsessing about the past to the detriment of the future it not. I play jazz professionally too. I don't like what I see. I see a bunch of musicians and even the clubs.. it's all about dead people. I'm sorry but it's like jazz is the "sixth sense"... i see dead people!

We get it.. they were great. lets celebrate some people who are around now...

[jay norem]

but thats exactly what isn't happening in jazz... jazz is all about the past.

I really don't think you listen to much jazz, do you? Sorry, I may be wrong. Jazz is no more "about the past" than rock music is.
I play and write jazz music and what I do is entirely in and about the present. It's here, now. The guys in my band have their "own lines" they bring in and we sound like a jazz band in the year 2008.
Of course I studied the drummers from the old days, just as rock drummers study John Bonham. Does that mean that they are "all about the past?" Of course it doesn't.
And to be perfectly candid, I don't hear anything innovative happening in rock music at all. If anything, all I hear (and to be fair I don't hear all that much) just sounds like re-hashed ideas dressed up in new outfits and haircuts (and a lot of tattoos), and with better recording technology.
Everything, to an extent, is about the past. Unless you have some totally new and unique concept that is entirely of your own devising and that owes nothing to anything that came before you, in which case I'm sure we'd all very much like to hear it.

[Steamer]

with all due respect, and I mean that. I don't think I did. I respectfully suggest you ready what you wrote again. It's all in there I think. I doubt you'll agree, nobody changes their own opinions around here I've noticed. Just an observation, not an attack.

Quite right my opinion on the matter won't change soon but for all the right reasons as stated in my view as a long time professional player of the music thinking "out of the box" but knowing where, what and who made it happen and where it's going today. You first learn to walk before you run....

Since you mention Tony he always talked about Max and Philly Joe extensively in interviews and their influence on him and his approach/concepts and modern jazz drumming. Jack always mentions Baby Dodds and Papa Joe etc...Brian Blade mentions EVERYBODY... see the connection from past to the present? My feeling is you seem to feel you can create something new without recognizing what has been achieved in the past and having a working understanding of it. Correct? I don't subscribe to this mindset personally and professionally speaking in relation to jazz. At worse you may feel nothing new is happening because people are stuck in the past. Wrong.

Jazz is very much vital in the hands of those embracing and understanding the past AND moving on to new chapters in the history of jazz music and drumming RIGHT NOW TODAY.

Ever heard of the Dave Holland Quintet as one of countless examples of what I speak as one of the more recognized names. That's not to mention all the countless piss and vinegar youngbloods in NY in the underground scene making waves based on extensions on the traditions of jazz music and it's drum innovators. Just heard from my NY contact that Roy Haynes young grandson is the most original sounding drummer making waves in jazz since Tony based on the opinion of the guys playing and working the leading edge scene. Ever heard of young blood drummer Dan Weiss? Holy mother god new approach to playing off the jazz tradition in odd meters.

Jazz is only dead and a museum piece for those not checking out the current scenes around the world and the current directions of the music that the commercial media never talks about and knows nothing about. It's up to the musicians to search out what is going on. Don't rely on hearing about in the press or in the pages of Modern Drummer.

Jazz the first punk and underground music :}

[percusboy]

Everything, to an extent, is about the past. Unless you have some totally new and unique concept that is entirely of your own devising and that owes nothing to anything that came before you, in which case I'm sure we'd all very much like to hear it.

Maybe since this post will be short, you'll read what I'm saying this time. I never said to trash the past. I never said don't study your history. I never said don't be a student of the instrument.

I said, jazz has a death fetish. It's disproportionally focused on the past to the detriment on the future. It has already become like classical music. That's what I said and I'm sticking to it.

Dont' agree? Fine. But don't make it seem like I don't know my history. I do. I just keep it all in perspective. I just don't think jazz is healthy. And I think that you'd have to have blinders on to think jazz is healthy in the 21st century. And stop bringing up great musicians now. That's not the point. It's the overall product of jazz that has the problem.
I want to see jazz get MORE popular, not less.

[The Colonel]

I wonder if he'll name any of my friends in that list of 10 drummers... (or drummers who play with my other friends) - can't wait!


There are some drummers doing wonderful things, under [possibly] the banner of "jazz". I throw that "possibly" in there because more people I play with/listen to/etc have thrown out the word "jazz" in favor of "improv" or "music" as in "I play music".

And NYC isn't the only place where interesting drummers can come from. Sure there's a few who stand out (I haven't heard Haynes' grandson in 6 years. Hope he's gotten better) but there are other scenes around the world that are developing great drummers. I would take drummers (in general) from Vancouver and Tokyo over drummers from NYC. Those scenes have some great stuff going - really interesting musicians pushing the envelope (mostly the younger guys coming up admiring the "big cats" from those cities. London too. Eddie Prevost has helped cultivate some really amazing drummers, stylistically. (Dylan van der Schyff for Vancouver and anyone in Otomo Yoshihide's crew on drums from the past 15 years)


I sort of agree with everyone (all three of you) - a little bit of what each person is saying, I totally agree with. Percusboy sounds like a good friend/musician from NYC (Chris, is that you?) with the whole "jazz is dead" thing - which I disagree with - but agree in the sense that most people talk about "jazz". THAT part of it - that I agree with - *is* museum/classical music. But there *are* people bringing new elements to it. Some of them even "straight-ahead" guys (by today's standards)

I keep telling people - if you think jazz is dead - go listen to any piano trio from the 50's on up - and then listen to the Jason Moran trio. Still "straight-ahead" for comparison reasons - but honestly - if you listen to them and think there's no progression - both with the trio as a whole and with the drummer and his role (didn't mean to rhyme but I *am* Hip-Hopapotomus) then you have your ear-muffs in and don't want to bother. But you could go avant-garde and bring up Marilyn Crispell (for instance) and now you have young musicians coming from her repertoire with less Bud Powell. You have drummers who love Hamid Drake more than Tony or Elvin. You have Peter Brotzmann fans skipping out on Rollins and Gordon... You have people starting out with the AALY Trio and Merzbow and Evan Parker and Radiohead....

Jazz is progressing. There *are* ways to make it more enjoyable to people. I do shows here in LA in a few "trendy" places where I get to do adventurous things BECAUSE the owners don't want "old jazz" - I get to really mess stuff up and people really like it. I don't have the band go all atonal for 20 minutes each piece - but a more melodic mashup of different approaches with some a-rhythmic elements and complete noise surrounded by interesting melodic invention. THAT's what keep people interested - that and some DJ Shadow-ish hyper-beats thrown in among the noise. : ) It's all about PRODUCTION these days - and the older crowd seems to not understand that. That's a big reason why the younger generations don't seem to care about their dads' and grandads' jazz.


As for the 25 list....I find most of them not worth my time. Good for others - but I've done okay completely skipping more than half that list. Maybe I've picked up a bit of them through others' playing - honestly doubt that - but anyway - I don't think anyone needs to check out EVERYONE. Not enough years in my life or money in my wallet to invest in people who don't grab me within one song or less. I just got back from seeing a band (The Drones) that all my friends really like. After their first song I thought "Meh" - by song 3 I was in the other room playing pool having way more fun than I was earlier.

Percusboy - do we know each other?

[percusboy]

Well I'm not buying it. You say, on the one hand, that you can name ten amazing young jazz drummers in New York. That's good, isn't it? I'd say it's great. Yet on the other hand you say that jazz is all about the past, it worships dead people and so on. So are these ten amazing young jazz drummers obsessed with the "current mindset of the art?"
Which is it?
By the way, I lived in the village in the late 60's, briefly. When I went to music school in New York in the 70's I lived on the lower east side, 4th Street between 1st and 2nd. I loved it, but I was poor as a bastard. So how do you afford living in the village as a professional jazz drummer? See what I mean? If you're dedicated to playing jazz to the extent that you can make enough money playing it to afford to live in a pretty damn expensive part of a pretty damn expensive city then I don't understand your attitude at all. Seems to me that you'd be happy as a clam! I know I would.


There are cheap places to live in the village. You should know that if you lived there.

You don't understand my attitude, true. Because we're just seeing the same thing completely differently. You just aren't really reading what I'm saying or I'm doing a poor job of writing it. Maybe both are true.

This discussion started with Klook... and now it's the about my view on the sad state of jazz and how it got here, why it's here, and why it's too late to save it. Jazz is what it is... Hey, love it or hate, doesn't matter to me. I just think it's got too much baggage now to ever be what it was. And the players and fans and press all, every single one of them, are too focused on the past to ever have a healthy future.

[percusboy]

I wonder if he'll name any of my friends in that list of 10 drummers... (or drummers who play with my other friends) - can't wait!


There are some drummers doing wonderful things, under [possibly] the banner of "jazz". I throw that "possibly" in there because more people I play with/listen to/etc have thrown out the word "jazz" in favor of "improv" or "music" as in "I play music".

And NYC isn't the only place where interesting drummers can come from. Sure there's a few who stand out (I haven't heard Haynes' grandson in 6 years. Hope he's gotten better) but there are other scenes around the world that are developing great drummers. I would take drummers (in general) from Vancouver and Tokyo over drummers from NYC. Those scenes have some great stuff going - really interesting musicians pushing the envelope (mostly the younger guys coming up admiring the "big cats" from those cities. London too. Eddie Prevost has helped cultivate some really amazing drummers, stylistically. (Dylan van der Schyff for Vancouver and anyone in Otomo Yoshihide's crew on drums from the past 15 years)


I sort of agree with everyone (all three of you) - a little bit of what each person is saying, I totally agree with. Percusboy sounds like a good friend/musician from NYC (Chris, is that you?) with the whole "jazz is dead" thing - which I disagree with - but agree in the sense that most people talk about "jazz". THAT part of it - that I agree with - *is* museum/classical music. But there *are* people bringing new elements to it. Some of them even "straight-ahead" guys (by today's standards)

I keep telling people - if you think jazz is dead - go listen to any piano trio from the 50's on up - and then listen to the Jason Moran trio. Still "straight-ahead" for comparison reasons - but honestly - if you listen to them and think there's no progression - both with the trio as a whole and with the drummer and his role (didn't mean to rhyme but I *am* Hip-Hopapotomus) then you have your ear-muffs in and don't want to bother. But you could go avant-garde and bring up Marilyn Crispell (for instance) and now you have young musicians coming from her repertoire with less Bud Powell. You have drummers who love Hamid Drake more than Tony or Elvin. You have Peter Brotzmann fans skipping out on Rollins and Gordon... You have people starting out with the AALY Trio and Merzbow and Evan Parker and Radiohead....

Jazz is progressing. There *are* ways to make it more enjoyable to people. I do shows here in LA in a few "trendy" places where I get to do adventurous things BECAUSE the owners don't want "old jazz" - I get to really mess stuff up and people really like it. I don't have the band go all atonal for 20 minutes each piece - but a more melodic mashup of different approaches with some a-rhythmic elements and complete noise surrounded by interesting melodic invention. THAT's what keep people interested - that and some DJ Shadow-ish hyper-beats thrown in among the noise. : ) It's all about PRODUCTION these days - and the older crowd seems to not understand that. That's a big reason why the younger generations don't seem to care about their dads' and grandads' jazz.


As for the 25 list....I find most of them not worth my time. Good for others - but I've done okay completely skipping more than half that list. Maybe I've picked up a bit of them through others' playing - honestly doubt that - but anyway - I don't think anyone needs to check out EVERYONE. Not enough years in my life or money in my wallet to invest in people who don't grab me within one song or less. I just got back from seeing a band (The Drones) that all my friends really like. After their first song I thought "Meh" - by song 3 I was in the other room playing pool having way more fun than I was earlier.

Percusboy - do we know each other?


great post... interesting ideas.

I dont' think jazz is dead! Jeez, it's alive, I friggin' play it daily! I'm not one of those dark (even though it sounds it here because of writing styles and you can't hear the delivery...) depressed assholes feeling sorry for his art.

I should make clear of how proud i am of the musicians of my generation for their talent. I just wish they would assert themselves more. take more credit for being who they are instead of so quick to be modest and say they "owe it all to X".

That's true some of the time but christ get over it! Younger generations are supposed to learn from their fathers. It's natural... now acknowledge it once and go forth and create with a clear conscious and stop cow towing...

[mattsmith]

Actually, I agree with some of things percusboy says, it's just that this dark writing style maybe casts out a different vibe than he's intending.

Yep, most of the NYC jazz, outside of some village shrines, is retread under glass. Right now there is too much of a put down and not enough welcoming going on about new strains of jazz in the city, and you can point your finger at a number of reasons for why that's so. Most of them have been listed on this forum at one time or another. That used not to be the case, with Ornette Coleman's 1959 Five Spot invasion coming immediately to mind.

Still percusboy, regarding the other stuff, there are plenty of other issues worth picking at. New Yorkers are notorious for believing that the only jazz on the planet is the stuff they play, performed by their guys at their places. I always find it interesting to listen to New York guys talk in terms of their 10 miles being all there is, and don't get me wrong, they're still the center, But all you have to do is drive 5 hours north to discover that the largest concentration of high end jazz talent per square mile isn't your place, but Boston. And a lot of those guys think it's the NYC guys who are the backwards ones, not understanding that there is this big world out there of outstanding and innovative jazz musicians that aren't always neccesarily them.

Then there's the whole international scene almost entirely ignored by New Yorkers. While the city has spent the past 30 years lecturing the world on what is and what isn't, they really haven't been paying much attention to all the European forward movement, which in many ways has passed us. Now I know a lot of us Americans don't believe that, but that's not my problem. And it's popular too. People ask my family all the time why we spend so much time in Eastern Europe? Well, when our plane taxis up at the Bucharest airport, there is always a group of fans waiting for my dad at the airport. If Sonny Rollins were to come to Atlanta right now, there wouldn't be 50 people in the terminal clapping for that, like they do for my mid level name rec old man in Buc. And the jazz clubs and concerts there remain packed to the gills with screaming fans who demand 4 and 5 encores.

Finally percusboy, on the personal end you're kind of a mystery. I think you know your stuff, but your opinions are stark and harsh enough to demand a reaction. You also pretty much taunt those who see the old masters as the center, but tell high school jazz drummers to study Buddy Rich and Mel Lewis. Now I think I know where you're going with that, but I also think you can see why that's confusing.

Then there is the personal confusion angle. The guys you're going after on this thread are hardcore players, and I know this to be true. I think you also fully understand what Jay was trying to say about Kenny Clarke , but you kept ramming your point home in this put down kinda way, as if to make drum forum points and not really forward the discussion.

I'm also confused why an epicenter New York jazz drummer with obviously hundreds of available musicians, goes on the Craigslist thread, stating that he's looking for people to jam with and that he plays on an intermediate level. And look man, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact it's cool. But again, it's just confusing that's all.

[Steamer]

Okay I see what's really going on here finally... again...

So much agenda,.baggage and contradictions put forth by a certain individual unless your a member of his "new club" and then magically jazz is alive and happening after all,what a joke. Been down this route and story line here before. The old jazz pros get put into a "one size box" for being just that and the ridiclous generalizations in that regard show there ugly head yet again. No thanks. Back to playing everything from dixie to intense leading edge free jazz and those who wish if it makes them happy can think and believe whatever they wish in regard to the "older" generation of jazz players and how they play and think.

Have fun guys i'm out.

[Steamer]

Actually, I agree with some of things percusboy says, it's just that this dark writing style maybe casts out a different vibe than he's intending.

Yep, most of the NYC jazz, outside of some village shrines, is retread under glass. Right now there is too much of a put down and not enough welcoming going on about new strains of jazz in the city, and you can point your finger at a number of reasons for why that's so. Most of them have been listed on this forum at one time or another. That used not to be the case, with Ornette Coleman's 1959 Five Spot invasion coming immediately to mind.

Still percusboy, regarding the other stuff, there are plenty of other issues worth picking at. New Yorkers are notorious for believing that the only jazz on the planet is the stuff they play, performed by their guys at their places. I always find it interesting to listen to New York guys talk in terms of their 10 miles being all there is, and don't get me wrong, they're still the center, But all you have to do is drive 5 hours north to discover that the largest concentration of high end jazz talent per square mile isn't your place, but Boston. And a lot of those guys think it's the NYC guys who are the backwards ones, not understanding that there is this big world out there of outstanding and innovative jazz musicians that aren't always neccesarily them.

Then there's the whole international scene almost entirely ignored by New Yorkers. While the city has spent the past 30 years lecturing the world on what is and what isn't, they really haven't been paying much attention to all the European forward movement, which in many ways has passed us. Now I know a lot of us Americans don't believe that, but that's not my problem. And it's popular too. People ask my family all the time why we spend so much time in Eastern Europe? Well, when our plane taxis up at the Bucharest airport, there is always a group of fans waiting for my dad at the airport. If Sonny Rollins were to come to Atlanta right now, there wouldn't be 50 people in the terminal clapping for that, like they do for my mid level name rec old man in Buc. And the jazz clubs and concerts there remain packed to the gills with screaming fans who demand 4 and 5 encores.

Finally percusboy, on the personal end you're kind of a mystery. I think you know your stuff, but your opinions are stark and harsh enough to demand a reaction. You also pretty much taunt those who see the old masters as the center, but tell high school jazz drummers to study Buddy Rich and Mel Lewis. Now I think I know where you're going with that, but I also think you can see why that's confusing.

Then there is the personal confusion angle. The guys you're going after on this thread are hardcore players, and I know this to be true. I think you also fully understand what Jay was trying to say about Kenny Clarke , but you kept ramming your point home in this put down kinda way, as if to make drum forum points and not really forward the discussion.

I'm also confused why an epicenter New York jazz drummer with obviously hundreds of available musicians, goes on the Craigslist thread, stating that he's looking for people to jam with and that he plays on an intermediate level. And look man, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact it's cool. But again, it's just confusing that's all.


Good observations on the subject and other related {?} issues Matt.

[jay norem]

I just don't agree with Jay... sorry. But I don't. If I was heavy handed I apologize. I do think that there is a fetish for the past. I'm sorry if that is hurtful but it's so painfully obvious that if you can't see it, I can't help you. It is, in my view, non-debatable. The evidence is everywhere.

I don't care if it was Kenny Clarke who began developing the ride cymbal, but that is how the story goes. I wasn't around so there's no way for me to know.
"Fetish for the past." I agree with you there actually. But for me this fetish is with the songs, the "standards." Here in Atlanta it's all about those dreadful old tunes and the same old way they're played all the time. Now that's museum music.
Monk is the main influence on how I write but I write like me. I don't use functional harmony. This causes my players to have to come up with their own lines, because the old II V7 turnaround cliches just won't work here.
I really think that jazz needs to stop being analyzed to death in the classroom, where it's like something encased in amber. Harmonically jazz needs to lose all the theoretical by-the-numbers rubbish that's been piled upon it. Most young jazz players these days owe more to their music teachers than they do to the so-called giants. And they all sound the same. Well not all, but most.
I think we probably agree a lot more than we disagree. But I still say that there's no way you can find a cheap place to live in Manhattan, especially in the village. Of course, we may have different ideas of what cheap is...

[murphinelli]

Damn, I missed this jazz thread since the title didn't have jazz in it! Crap. Too late to join in, but interesting stuff to read. Some new and some old. I think you need a mix of both. It is important to understand what came before you...to understand what is happening today. Listen to everybody.

The whole New York vs. Boston thing has been debated before on this forum. Not sure where Matt is getting his numbers from other than the fact that there are tons of jazz students and graduates here and playing here. Yes, tons of talent. But, are they planning on staying here?! Doubt it. Unless you are independently wealthy or have a rich significant other...good luck making a living.

[dmb_drummer]

i can't find this "list" that's suppose to be on the provided link.
all i see is merchandise.
can somebody puhlease help me out?

[DogBreath]

Many posts deleted, one member banned. Do not use vulgar language, no not quote those who do, do not make personal insults, and stay on topic. Discuss jazz in an existing thread or start a new one, discuss the joys and tribulations of living in New York in the Off Topic Lounge. Thanks.

[The Colonel]

... to intense leading edge free jazz


Oooo! Is there somewhere online I can hear this? Would love to maybe trade some stuff.

[wy yung]

but thats exactly what isn't happening in jazz... jazz is all about the past. You can point out any musician you want. I know there is talent happening now... i know i know...
It's the culture I'm talking about. even the great players of today can't stop yapping about the past. I got this from Tony! blah blah... I'm so sick of it. Read Tony interviews, I have. He doesn't just blow on and on about Max and Papa Jo. It's so disfunctional that I can't bear to read any interviews anymore.


I can see how you may have come to this perception. The recent Cindy Blackman interview in MD was ALL about Tony. But I think it important to recognize that often one's perception of things is not alwaysan accurate reflection of reality. As far as I am able to tell, ALL human knowledge is based upon what came before. The English language has roots in German, Latin and other languages. Latin had elements of Greek in it. A modern sculpter owes a great deal to Phidius, no less than a musician owes to those who came before. Jazz, along with many other styles, uses the music of the past as its base and destination. Whatever that may be. Has Beethoven influenced jazz? Yes.

In my opinion wishing to obtain a thorough understanding of one's chosen craft is not a negative, but a positive thing to do. Rock drummers use techniques derived from jazz drummers. And rock drummers often speak of those who came before them. Just look at how many Bonham threads there are on the net, and how often he is mentinoed in the press in interviews with modern players. Is this disfunctional?

I think there are problems within jazz. No doubt. But most of these problems come from without. People like Ken Burns, Wynton Marsalis etc seem to have dragged jazz back into the depths while others are trying desperately to keep it afloat. Contrary to popular belief, jazz is a vital musical form. But it is again the perception, rather than the truth of it that is clouding the public's eye.

These problems affect modern players who are unable to get press. Many people know who Dave Brubeck is, but not many know either of the Avashai Cohen's. So of course Brubeck still sells more recordings. And jazz is not easy for the average person who grew up on 2 and 4. Earl Palmer said himself that rock was invented because jazz wasn't selling. But does and art and it's growth only depend on popularity? I hate to think that is the case. But it may well be because the bottom line is as it always was, bums on seats. That is why classical orchestras play the same standards over and over again.

I think each musician should find their own way. If another's way is to research and understand those who went before, it is not for others to bag them for it. Just be concerned with your own way.

My perception as to what is correct in the study of music: I believe whole heartedly that one must study the history, the "why" of where things came from. As a drummer and percussionist I have found it absolutely vital. Especially with regards to the world of percussion, based as it is in so many cultural backgrounds. The drumset is a smaller world and I tend to see individual musicians as different cultural influences. I think that a superficial understanding is a point of weakness. And moving as I do amongst professional players and teachers, I know that anyone who is seen as superficial and lacking in knowledge is simply not respected. I have been questioned at length by excellent drummers about people such as Max and Tony. I had to pass certain tests to be accepted as a teacher working alongside these drummers and percussionists. I doubt had I not had a clue I'd stilll have my job.

Bottom line is it's up to each person. Do you want to know what you are talking about or not?

That's my story and I am sticking to it. ;-)

[jay norem]

Jazz, along with many other styles, uses the music of the past as its base and destination. Whatever that may be. Has Beethoven influenced jazz? Yes.

Interesting. Could you explain, please, how Beethoven has influenced jazz? Specific examples would be most illuminating.

[wy yung]

Interesting. Could you explain, please, how Beethoven has influenced jazz? Specific examples would be most illuminating.

Hang on, Jay, the influence of western classical music is all through jazz. This is surely a given??? I'm using Beethoven simply as an example.

There are many interviews with people such as Duke and Art Tatum where they spoke of how the classical composers influenced them. Jay you seem experienced so I thought you'd know this?

[jay norem]

Hang on, Jay, the influence of western classical music is all through jazz. This is surely a given??? I'm using Beethoven simply as an example.

There are many interviews with people such as Duke and Art Tatum where they spoke of how the classical composers influenced them. Jay you seem experienced so I thought you'd know this?

Hey, you're the one who said that Beethoven influenced jazz. I just though that maybe you had something specific in mind to back that up. I would have found that most interesting.
Yes, lots of jazz musicians came up through studying classical music. Of course they did. My piano player did. I guess, in a way, we all do to some degree.
But, "the influence of western classical music is all through jazz" is something that just doesn't ring completely true to me. You'd have to show me where and how, see. Like I said, it's an interesting argument, but it needs to be followed up on with specifics.

[wy yung]

Hey, you're the one who said that Beethoven influenced jazz. I just though that maybe you had something specific in mind to back that up. I would have found that most interesting.
Yes, lots of jazz musicians came up through studying classical music. Of course they did. My piano player did. I guess, in a way, we all do to some degree.
But, "the influence of western classical music is all through jazz" is something that just doesn't ring completely true to me. You'd have to show me where and how, see. Like I said, it's an interesting argument, but it needs to be followed up on with specifics.


http://cnx.org/content/m11421/latest/


http://en.allexperts.com/q/Musical-Composition-Theory-652/Scale-composition.htm

My point now and in the previous post was to show that all knowledge is built upon the backs of what went before. There are countless articles on the web alone detailing the history of western music. Is western musical theory the only influence on jazz? Of course not. The influences are many. But a knowledge of European music even at its most basic should be enough.

Influences come in all shapes and sizes too. Any jazz drummer who worked through Anthony Cirone's book has been influenced by a classical tradition.

[jay norem]

http://cnx.org/content/m11421/latest/


http://en.allexperts.com/q/Musical-Composition-Theory-652/Scale-composition.htm

My point now and in the previous post was to show that all knowledge is built upon the backs of what went before. There are countless articles on the web alone detailing the history of western music. Is western musical theory the only influence on jazz? Of course not. The influences are many. But a knowledge of European music even at its most basic should be enough.

Influences come in all shapes and sizes too. Any jazz drummer who worked through Anthony Cirone's book has been influenced by a classical tradition.

Well, okay.

(Twenty characters trying to figure out what this cat's talking about...)

[wy yung]

What I am talking about is the large picture. I am not speaking about specific songs. I am speaking about notation, scales, harmony, counterpoint etc etc. Art Tatum playing Beethoven. It's all linked.