Paiste twenty series...cracked!!

[Thedude]

Well what can i say? My new twenty series 18 inch crash has cracked already..less than three weeks old and i bet less than 100 strikes on it, CRACKED!!! It will be on its way back to paiste on monday for replacement. Just thought i would start this thread to see if anyone else has had any issues with this series or just me so far.

[crumbdrums]

Evidently a new bronze has not solved Paiste's durability issues.

On a lighter note, how does it sound? What do you think of it?

[jazzgregg]

Paiste does not have durability issues, no more than any other company. Their B15 (Traditionals, Sigs) is a softer alloy than say a B20 ('Twenty' obviously), but if used properly, their cymbals won't break any quicker than the other companies. The 'Paiste durability issues' position is rubbish. Everyone can have bad experiences, but as a general rule, rubbish.

As for your Twenty? Who knows? A dud? What kind of music were you using it for, how were you hitting it, how tight was it clamped down, what angle was it at, etc. When a cymbal, ANY cymbal breaks, ask these questions. Where has it cracked? That will almost always tell you what caused the crack.

G

[The Ploughman]

Durability issues?


In 1979........... I aquired a Paiste 2002 set of 14" Heavy Hats, 18" Crash, 20" Ride. They came with the set. They were exactly two years old when I got them. I sold them in 2003. For more than their 1977 purchase price. I would call that durable. Since 1999, Ive used Signatures, 2002s, Traditionals, and have never, not once had a problem with durability. Cymbals break, I understand that. But I dont think nearly as many break from manufacturing defects as from player induced failures.

[the skin man]

Paiste does not have durability issues, no more than any other company.

I'd say that Zildjians and Sabians are a little more durable than Paistes, at least on average, but it's also true that cymbals should last a while if they're hit in the right way - crashing with on the bow of the cymbal instead of on the edge. I don't know what they mean by a "glancing blow" and why that's supposed to be better. I say just hit a larger area of the cymbal with the shank.

[Thedude]

As far as the sound of the cymbal i really had mixed emotions. I loved the initial crash but it had a very weird note at the end of the sustain that drove me nuts but, all in all, i hadnt even got use to the cymbal long enough to really decide if i wanted to pursue this series further. I'll say this, good crash but nothing great.

I knew i would get the " mounting, music played, angle of cymbal,blah blah etcetc. from someone. Ive played paiste's for as long as i can remeber and this is the first one in over ten years that has edged cracked on me. Some have cracked inside the body {sigs} but as many of you know signature's are notorious for that due to the b15 and manufacturing techniques, ....so there you go. Im just hoping i got a dud and the twenty's wont become "the cymbals with the crack aleady built in"...which is was what 602's became known for,..at least the crashes, so ive heard. We'll see boys. Keep me posted if anyone else runs into this problem at such a early stage of ownership.

[jazzgregg]

Thedude- my questions weren't specifically directed at you, implying you didn't play it right or anything, rather, the idea from the second poster that Paiste's are less durable than others.

The Skin Man- all do respect but when you figure out what a glancing blow is, you'll also figure out what it is that makes cymbals last longer. It will also make them sound better.

I am not personally attacking anyone's experience (though I am asking for it), rather that this idea of Paiste's being weak really pisses me off for the most part as many people seem to adopt this stance because it's something they've heard, or think they are supposed to say about Paiste. I just like to hear stuff backed up,(one reason why I am not enjoying the 'movie review thread' at the moment=). Thedude himself has extensive experience with Paistes, so there you go. I've used Paiste's since I was 13 and have had no bad experiences with them, including 602's and Sigs. Saying that 'cymbal brand X is more durable than a Paiste' is an overused phrase with as much evidence against, if not more, than there is for it, notwithstanding personal experience.

Just saying.

G

[the skin man]

The Skin Man- all do respect but when you figure out what a glancing blow is, you'll also figure out what it is that makes cymbals last longer. It will also make them sound better.

Well, if they mean not having the stick go past the position the cymbal was in before it was hit versus hitting it in a line parallel to the surface of the cymbal, I don't see why that's any better. If in both cases, the drummer is hitting the cymbal with a certain amount of force and over a certain area on the surface of the cymbal and it's the same in both cases, then it would seem that the chances of damaging the cymbal is the same in both cases. And it seems that it should sound the same in both cases. For example, I don't think the guy in this video is using a glancing blow:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZpkC80mnNDg

Maybe he is. It's kind of hard to tell. Now, it seems pretty clear why hitting it on the edge would cause the cymbal to crack because the force is concentrated in a very small place. But that's a whole different thing.

[nickg]

most of my Paistes are about close to 20 years old. 2002, Sound Formula, Signature, RUDE, Alpha, 3000.

still standing...no cracks...no keyholes...no nothing.

any cymbal is prone to breakage no matter the name. durability doesn't seem to be an issue here with my setup.

when in doubt, look first at the drummer....what type of cymbal are they using, what type of stick, what style of music, what technique when hitting the cymbal, etc.

[the skin man]

Paiste does not have durability issues, no more than any other company.

But how do you know that Paiste does not have durability issues relative to the other companies? It could be that the reason why you've never broken one is because you don't hit as hard as other people and you hit with glancing blows and such, but if you did hit harder and without glancing blows your Paistes would have broken but Zildjians and Sabians would not.

Their B15 (Traditionals, Sigs) is a softer alloy than say a B20 ('Twenty' obviously), but if used properly, their cymbals won't break any quicker than the other companies.

If one alloy is softer than the other, it would expect the harder alloy to stand up to both improper use and hard hitting proper use, so the softer one would likely break sooner than the harder one generally speaking.

[jazzgregg]

but if you did hit harder and without glancing blows your Paistes would have broken but Zildjians and Sabians would not.




'Correct usage' of a cymbal, from every cymbal company, dictates that glancing blows should be used, simple as that. If you wail on the edge of any cymbal long enough, it will break, no matter who made it. The fact is that technically. if you aren't using glancing blows, you cannot expect to get the most out of your cymbal with regards to durability and sound. Think of it like buying a home stereo system, then wondering why it blew up when you tried to use it as a PA in an arena. Correct usage means a lot more than one might think=). Nothing is supposed to, or at least pro mised to, stand up to improper use. I know that many of the 602's that cracked were because rock guys were buying paper thin 20's and using them as crashes.

Glancing blows also bring the sound out of a cymbal whereas slamming it straight on an edge just moves the sound towards the bell (Hello Crack City too). This is bad cymbal technique, period.

The guy in the video is doing a little sweep, kinda a glancing blow but yeah, hard to tell. He's sweeping like that to get a better sound out of the cymbal.


G

[the skin man]

The guy in the video is doing a little sweep, kinda a glancing blow but yeah, hard to tell.

So it sounds like you think if he was doing more of a sweep - more of a glancing blow - he would be less likely to break cymbals and if he was hitting on the edge it would be even worse.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

So it sounds like you think if he was doing more of a sweep - more of a glancing blow - he would be less likely to break cymbals and if he was hitting on the edge it would be even worse.

Congratulations The Skin Man. That's exactly what Gregg was saying.

[the skin man]

Congratulations The Skin Man. That's exactly what Gregg was saying.

Maybe you should let Gregg speak for himself. >:o}

[driver]

Cymbals are like pet Lions. Great fun but push it too hard and bam your screwed. Moral is treat them with respect. Every cymbal makers website states about glancing blows as in this is how to play this product. jazzgregg got it right with all his posts so far.

[Thedude]

My god, its insane how these threads take on a life of their own...Very interesting. So I'll keep it going. It doesnt matter what brand you play they all crack sometimes. I dont care how you mount it, at what angle, hit it with a twig or a freakin log with or without a "glancing blow" no matter who made it, from whatever alloy they used, they all crack.
And for the record i love my paiste's and wouldnt trade em for any other brand cracked or not! Again, I started this thread just to see if anyone else has had any problems with their twentys because i addmit it looks like i got a dud. If you play long enough and buy enough cymbals ,again no matter who made them, your going to run into a few duds. But wait Lets see... ive been playing for about 27 years and i have always used paiste's and this is my first "bad" cymbal.... hell i guess ive been lucky....have you?

[jazzgregg]

Maybe you should let Gregg speak for himself. >:o}

Well, really, he was just reading my posts, and pointing out what I had already said, so yeah, he can speak for me, especially if it needs repeating=).

Driver makes an excellent point, and well put too.

It IS true, cymbals CAN break for any number of reasons, however, you don't need to be a genius to know what kinds of cracks cracks are caused by what factors (angle, tightness, etc.). I don't mean to derail your thread Thedude, not at all, I just get really sick of people always saying 'oh, Paiste has durability problems', 'Traditionals are flimsy' and stuff like that. I have always used Paiste's too (17 years or so), except for a few years where I used Sabian's (I was misguided) and I have never had a dud, nor had one inexplicably break on me.

G

[the skin man]

Well, I was trying to clarify the difference between a glancing blow and a blow that didn't hit the cymbal on the edge. A glancing blow could hit the cymbal on the edge, but that would not be a good thing at all. To me this glancing blow thing sound a little like the anal idea that you need to match your cymbals for brands and if you don't match then that's somehow wrong. But the question still remains as to why people think that Paiste's are weak compared to other brands. It could be just a rumor - kind of like the rumor that ecstacy drains your spinal fluid (it doesn't - it's just that doctors drain the spinal fluid the study the biochemical effects of ecstacy) or it could be based in some sort of fact.

[nickg]

It could be just a rumor - kind of like the rumor that ecstacy drains your spinal fluid (it doesn't - it's just that doctors drain the spinal fluid the study the biochemical effects of ecstacy) or it could be based in some sort of fact.

not something i ever needed to know for ANY reason.

dear idiot drummers - try laying off the ecstasy and spend more time learning about music. you just might live longer and become a better musician. if not, call me from your early grave a$$hole.

[the skin man]

call me from your early grave a$$hole.

I was just using that as an example, I wasn't saying anyone should ever abuse that substance. And I think the use of profanity is more than a bit inappropriate even if dollars signs are substituted for letters.

[the skin man]

Getting back to cymbals, there is the question of why people think that Paistes are less durable than Zildjians and Sabians. One reason could be that thrash drummers are more likely to use Paiste because of endorsers like Joey Jordison and others and they hit a lot harder than other drummers and they are more likely to be self taught and therefore less likely to be told to never hit a cymbal on the edge or to always use glancing blows or whatever. So Paistes might be breaking more often than Zildjians and Sabians, but only because they take more abuse, not because they are less durable. Or they really might be less durable. It's pretty much a factual question. Maybe they don't break more often at all and the whole thing is just a rumor that got started and spread by word of mouth and on the internet.

[Miggle]

Off topic again.... I like hitting my A thin at the edge. It gives a darker sound. Not too hard though.

[jazzgregg]

Maybe they don't break more often at all and the whole thing is just a rumor that got started and spread by word of mouth and on the internet.

While there are numerous possibilities and likely more than a few actual reasons (including the one I mention above about rock guys using the wrong 602's), this gets my vote for at least being the most influential factor. All it takes is one 'famous' person to make a crack (pun intended) and it's off and running, this thread being yet more evidence of that.

G

[Cymbalrider]

I want to know how you people crack cymbals in less than a month...it's a new record. Perhaps these 5B + sticks you guys use could be a contributor....

[KzSgDrummer]

dear idiot drummers - try laying off the ecstasy and spend more time learning about music. you just might live longer and become a better musician. if not, call me from your early grave a$$hole.

Whoa dude, you've got some repression issues that should get attended to. No need for that animosity around here.


About the whole Paiste durability issue, I've had a Traditional 18" thin crash for five years now (love it to death.. it's my "smoky ocean") and have been for the last two or three years using it in a piggyback/stack setup (whatever you want to call it) with it on the bottom and a cracked crash on top. Now since this is more or less the china of my kit, it gets used more during the louder parts of songs and takes a lot of beatings, but it's held up just fine. Granted, I'm not a heavy hitter to begin with, but on the other hand I'm not exactly using a glancing blow 100% of the time either..

Anyway my point is that I agree with Gregg when it comes to Paistes and their durability... just think of how many A Customs you've seen shredded over the years!

[ellenvannin105]

I've seen many more cracked and destroyed Zildjian cymbals than any other brand; the only Paiste that I ever saw was a severely beaten upon but-not-cracked Sound Formula china.I think the reason for this is that there are far more Zildjian cymbals in existence in North America than Paistes.I don't think it matters what brand you use,if you use the wrong cymbal for the wrong application,you risk breaking it. My info regarding the Twenty Series is that they are not for use by Metal/Punk players who hit hard,but more for Pop,Latin and Rock players; they seem to be an updated version of the Formula 602 with a more modern attitude.I am not qualified to comment on whether Thedude used faulty technique or not,I just hope that Paiste will rule in his favour and replace the cymbal should it turn out to be a manufacturing defect.Thedude: Good luck and let us know how it all turns out....

[hateplow]

Never had any durability issues with Paistes. It is generally all about technique. I had an idiot friend of mine dent a full crash because he smashed the edge with a thick pair of sticks.
Danney Carrey beats the crap out of his Paistes, granted they are mostly Power Crashes, which are very heavy. Sounds like TheDude got a rare lemon.
The only cymbals that have ever cracked on me are Wuhans.

[nickg]

Whoa dude, you've got some repression issues that should get attended to. No need for that animosity around here.

!

i just hate to see some talented person, whether it's music, sports, movies, whatever, waste their lives on how cool they think they are because they get high.

too many have died and gone to an early grave because of substance abuse....look at moon and bonham just for 2 examples. truly talented people who left us too soon.

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

gregg, and everyone else: browse through this and pay attention to our resident cymbalsmith johan's posts:

http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11637

(perhaps you're giving the sig alloy a bit too much credit gregg)

[jazzgregg]

gregg, and everyone else: browse through this and pay attention to our resident cymbalsmith johan's posts:

http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11637

(perhaps you're giving the sig alloy a bit too much credit gregg)

I don't even have to look, I know very well what Johan says. Nevertheless, we are not talking about B15 here.

G

[the skin man]

If it is the case that B15 is weaker than B20, then it seems that B20 would last longer than B15 no matter what technique is used, provided that the same technique is used on cymbals from both alloys. So a B20 cymbal will last longer than a B15 cymbal if they are hit the same way, but a B15 might last longer than a B20 if the B15 was not struck on the edge and hit with glancing blows. I'm not sure I buy the idea that any good, quality cymbal will last forever as long as proper technique is used. With things like cars and ovens I'd bet they have a good understanding of how they work and how long they are supposed to last, so if an oven caught on fire after just baking one cake, then we know that either that was a seriously defective oven or whomever was using it did something very wrong. And the people who make ovens can probably figure out what went wrong. But with cymbals, I doubt there is as much knowledge and understanding. So I doubt someone at Paiste would say "well, everytime we make a prototype we send it to XYZ laboratories in Germany and they do a test on it and they give us an equation with variables for the number of hits, the size and weight of the sticks, the angle with which the stick struck the cymbal, the force of the blow, etc., etc. and based on that we can say exactly how long the cymbal should last and it's clear that Thedude wasn't using glancing blows and that's why the cymbal broke and he's not getting his money back unless the we can detect certain defects if he sends the cymbal to us in which case he does get his money back or at least another cymbal." I imagine that they just design these things for sound quality and a certain degree of durability. I've read, but not necessarily from a real reliable source that Zildjian places more emphasis on durability when they design cymbals and some people feel that that's why sound quality isn't as good as it could be. So it may be the case that good technique isn't guarenteed by a cymbal maker to stop a cymbal from breaking, rather they just know that it will prolong the life of a cymbal, but exactly how long is uncertain. And whether anyone uses good technique or bad, some cymbals will last longer than others because of differences in alloy and design.

[the skin man]

Nevertheless, we are not talking about B15 here.

Yeah, it would be interesting to compare B20 with B8 and see which is more durable.

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

I don't even have to look, I know very well what Johan says. Nevertheless, we are not talking about B15 here.

G

i was addressing your first post in the thread where you said that paistes (also mentioning sigs) don't have durability issues.

[jazzgregg]

i was addressing your first post in the thread where you said that paistes (also mentioning sigs) don't have durability issues.

Read carefully what I said. We are talking about durability, as in, how durable they are (or are not) or how they stand up to being played. Weird manufacturing issues that may or may not exist (you'd think Paiste would notice and do something about it, no?) would be a different problem.

As for random cracking of Sigs? I don't doubt someone like Johan, but I also have faith in Paiste and can relate my own experiences. It might seem like semantics, but it isn't. Has anyone sent back a Sig that's busted to Paiste, even after the warranty period? What do they say? I see no one doing (or having done) this but if there has been, someone point me to them. What's Paiste's stance? Or even during the warranty period, what do they say? Has anyone even asked them?



G

[the skin man]

Weird manufacturing issues that may or may not exist (you'd think Paiste would notice and do something about it, no?) would be a different problem.

It could that it's not so much a problem with durability so much as it is a problem with durability consistency. The average Signature or Traditional might not get those wierd cracks, but they get them more often than other cymbals because of some strange consistency issue with B15 that does not effect the sound, just the durability.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Sorry? Strange durability issue with B15? I'm assuming that you're thinking that the B15 is a softer alloy than B20, which it is. B20 is much more brittle, making it more prone to cracking. By your logic, all drummers would have issues with B8 cymbals, so how do Paiste 2oo2's (Which are 'rock' cymbals I hasten to add) manage to survive twenty or thirty-odd years of abuse? Why didn't my Sabian B8's crack the first time I hit them with appalling technique?

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

Read carefully what I said. We are talking about durability, as in, how durable they are (or are not) or how they stand up to being played. Weird manufacturing issues that may or may not exist (you'd think Paiste would notice and do something about it, no?) would be a different problem.

As for random cracking of Sigs? I don't doubt someone like Johan, but I also have faith in Paiste and can relate my own experiences. It might seem like semantics, but it isn't. Has anyone sent back a Sig that's busted to Paiste, even after the warranty period? What do they say? I see no one doing (or having done) this but if there has been, someone point me to them. What's Paiste's stance? Or even during the warranty period, what do they say? Has anyone even asked them?



G

i see, i did misunderstand. and i agree: if played with proper technique sigs should last just as long as 2002s

as for the random cracking of sigs: you asked if anyone has sent back a busted sig; johan said in the thread i posted, "Actually I have talked about this with owners of music shops and even with a Paiste rep. They all confirm my findings. It appears that a great many B15 alloy Paistes are indeed returned with strange cracks or warpage that was caused by the slightest incident."

you can try contacting paiste... but if it's anything like my past experiences, you won't receive and email back.

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

Sorry? Strange durability issue with B15? I'm assuming that you're thinking that the B15 is a softer alloy than B20, which it is. B20 is much more brittle, making it more prone to cracking. By your logic, all drummers would have issues with B8 cymbals, so how do Paiste 2oo2's (Which are 'rock' cymbals I hasten to add) manage to survive twenty or thirty-odd years of abuse? Why didn't my Sabian B8's crack the first time I hit them with appalling technique?

b20 is more brittle? really? i'm not insinuating that i know otherwise, i'm asking.

[jazzgregg]

i see, i did misunderstand. and i agree: if played with proper technique sigs should last just as long as 2002s

as for the random cracking of sigs: you asked if anyone has sent back a busted sig; johan said in the thread i posted, "Actually I have talked about this with owners of music shops and even with a Paiste rep. They all confirm my findings. It appears that a great many B15 alloy Paistes are indeed returned with strange cracks or warpage that was caused by the slightest incident."

you can try contacting paiste... but if it's anything like my past experiences, you won't receive and email back.

A Paiste rep does not count. I've heard reps bad mouth their product and all sorts of stuff like that (no, not all reps are this stupid)- still, a rep does not count, that's why I mentioned that Paiste has not been asked. Furthermore, forget about that, if there was as big an issue as some are trying to make it, why wouldn't they do something about it?

You apparently read cymbalholic enough, you should know that B20 is harder and age makes them somewhat brittle, look at the Old K discussions.

G

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

A Paiste rep does not count. I've heard reps bad mouth their product and all sorts of stuff like that (no, not all reps are this stupid)- still, a rep does not count, that's why I mentioned that Paiste has not been asked. Furthermore, forget about that, if there was as big an issue as some are trying to make it, why wouldn't they do something about it?

You apparently read cymbalholic enough, you should know that B20 is harder and age makes them somewhat brittle, look at the Old K discussions.

G

huh... why would a paiste rep badmouth their own product?

i don't frequent cymbalholic often, but that thread that i posted here was sent to me after i posted a thread about paiste durability.

i don't read much of the old k threads, as they don't really appeal to me.

is b8 the least brittle? and b15 in the middle?

[the skin man]

Strange durability issue with B15? I'm assuming that you're thinking that the B15 is a softer alloy than B20, which it is. B20 is much more brittle, making it more prone to cracking.

The "strange" durability issues associated with B15 are the ones discussed in the cymbalholic thread linked to this thread. If an alloy is softer, I imagine it would be more prone to dents and dings, not cracks, which most would expect to be something that more brittle cymbals would be prone to as you mentioned. Maybe that's one reason why they are so stange. But the another reason is that the cracks occur in odd places and in odd ways and with players that don't hit very hard. As was mentioned in the cymbalholic thread, many drummers think the cracks formed when the cymbals were being stored, not when they were being played. This makes it sound like there is some defect associated with the durability of Paiste's B15 alloy that occurs more often than with others alloys, but not in every cymbals. If those problems were there in every cymbal, Paiste almost certainly would have discontinued the Signatures, New Signatures, and Traditionals by now.

[the skin man]

if played with proper technique sigs should last just as long as 2002s


This still seems a little weird to me. If an alloy is durable, that durability should protect it from both proper and improper use. It's just that proper cymbal use will stress the cymbal less over time than the improper use unless there's some strange fact about improper cymbal use that I'm not getting here. What if using a wood bass drum beater was considered improper use of a bass drum head? I don't think it is, although some may drummers use a pad on the head to protect the head in that situation. Assuming for the sake of argument that using a wooden beater is a no-no, would both durable and not so durable heads break after the same amount of use with a wooden beater? I would think not. I would think that the not so durable head would break first and then the durable head would break next. Both would likely break earlier than when a felt beater is used because wooden beaters are so much more punishing. So I don't see how it would be any different than with cymbals.

[the skin man]

I saw Thomas Lang at a clinic last night and I asked a drummer there if he thought that Paistes were less durable than Zildjians. He said "oh, I don't just think that Paistes are less durable, I know that Paistes are less durable." He said that he's played a lot of both and the Paistes break quicker. But he said he thought the reason for that was that Zildjians are thicker. So what if Zildjians and Paistes were matched for thickness, would the Paistes still break sooner because of the alloy and the way they're made? It seems like that would be a more fair comparison.

[Thedude]

As for random cracking of Sigs? I don't doubt someone like Johan, but I also have faith in Paiste and can relate my own experiences. It might seem like semantics, but it isn't. Has anyone sent back a Sig that's busted to Paiste, even after the warranty period? What do they say? I see no one doing (or having done) this but if there has been, someone point me to them. What's Paiste's stance? Or even during the warranty period, what do they say? Has anyone even asked them?
Jazzgreg,
I have had signatures that have developed angled cracks inside the body or bow before. Here's what i did. First i called them directly in ca. and told them what was up. Then i got a R.A. {return authorization number}. I packed up the cymbal with my proof of purchase and shipped it to them. When the cymbal arrives at paiste a cymbal tech , trained by the swiss guys, checks over the cymbal for obvious abuse, weight, thickness etc. If the cymbal is determined to have a manufacturing flaw it is replaced no problem.The cymbals i sent were all no longer under warranty{one year}. Also i have spoken directly to a paiste cymbal tech and asked why this occurs in sigs and i was told, loosley quoted, that the techniques used during manufacturing somtimes lead to theses "stress fractures" and only manifest over time as the cymbal is played.
Im sure they could fix this flaw but in doing so it would compromise the sonic characteristics that they strictly follow. I personally love the fact that they stand behind every cymbal they sell. I can call them anytime and have never been dismissed as unimportant. Not every cymbal company does that.

The twenty series cymbal that i cracked is on its way to paiste and i know will be replaced and shipped back to me asap. In fact they will call me when it ships out. They always have.......

[jazzgregg]

As for random cracking of Sigs? I don't doubt someone like Johan, but I also have faith in Paiste and can relate my own experiences. It might seem like semantics, but it isn't. Has anyone sent back a Sig that's busted to Paiste, even after the warranty period? What do they say? I see no one doing (or having done) this but if there has been, someone point me to them. What's Paiste's stance? Or even during the warranty period, what do they say? Has anyone even asked them?
Jazzgreg,
I have had signatures that have developed angled cracks inside the body or bow before. Here's what i did. First i called them directly in ca. and told them what was up. Then i got a R.A. {return authorization number}. I packed up the cymbal with my proof of purchase and shipped it to them. When the cymbal arrives at paiste a cymbal tech , trained by the swiss guys, checks over the cymbal for obvious abuse, weight, thickness etc. If the cymbal is determined to have a manufacturing flaw it is replaced no problem.The cymbals i sent were all no longer under warranty{one year}. Also i have spoken directly to a paiste cymbal tech and asked why this occurs in sigs and i was told, loosley quoted, that the techniques used during manufacturing somtimes lead to theses "stress fractures" and only manifest over time as the cymbal is played.
Im sure they could fix this flaw but in doing so it would compromise the sonic characteristics that they strictly follow. I personally love the fact that they stand behind every cymbal they sell. I can call them anytime and have never been dismissed as unimportant. Not every cymbal company does that.

The twenty series cymbal that i cracked is on its way to paiste and i know will be replaced and shipped back to me asap. In fact they will call me when it ships out. They always have.......


RIGHT ON.
That's a cymbal company. See why rep's don't count?

Thanks Thedude.

G

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

I have had signatures that have developed angled cracks inside the body or bow before. Here's what i did. First i called them directly in ca. and told them what was up. Then i got a R.A. {return authorization number}. I packed up the cymbal with my proof of purchase and shipped it to them. When the cymbal arrives at paiste a cymbal tech , trained by the swiss guys, checks over the cymbal for obvious abuse, weight, thickness etc. If the cymbal is determined to have a manufacturing flaw it is replaced no problem.The cymbals i sent were all no longer under warranty{one year}. Also i have spoken directly to a paiste cymbal tech and asked why this occurs in sigs and i was told, loosley quoted, that the techniques used during manufacturing somtimes lead to theses "stress fractures" and only manifest over time as the cymbal is played.
Im sure they could fix this flaw but in doing so it would compromise the sonic characteristics that they strictly follow. I personally love the fact that they stand behind every cymbal they sell. I can call them anytime and have never been dismissed as unimportant. Not every cymbal company does that.

The twenty series cymbal that i cracked is on its way to paiste and i know will be replaced and shipped back to me asap. In fact they will call me when it ships out. They always have.......

that's good to know. out of curiosity, how many paistes have you sent back?

hey gregg, or anyone else, do you know the answer to my alloy brittleness question?

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

huh... why would a paiste rep badmouth their own product?

i don't frequent cymbalholic often, but that thread that i posted here was sent to me after i posted a thread about paiste durability.

i don't read much of the old k threads, as they don't really appeal to me.

is b8 the least brittle? and b15 in the middle?

That is indeed the case. The B20 alloy is a different form of alloy than the B8 alloy. Basically, in B20, some of the tin grains are not dissolved in the copper, whereas in B8, all the tin is dissolved by the copper. This means that the B20 bronze is indeed more brittle and can't be rolled into sheets like the B8 alloy can. Presumably the amount of dissolved tin is linear to the proportion of tin present in the alloy and as a result, the higher the tin content, the more brittle the bronze.

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

That is indeed the case. The B20 alloy is a different form of alloy than the B8 alloy. Basically, in B20, some of the tin grains are not dissolved in the copper, whereas in B8, all the tin is dissolved by the copper. This means that the B20 bronze is indeed more brittle and can't be rolled into sheets like the B8 alloy can. Presumably the amount of dissolved tin is linear to the proportion of tin present in the alloy and as a result, the higher the tin content, the more brittle the bronze.

well then... that's comforting to know concerning my giant beats. thanks mfb.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Well there is one concern with B8 bronze. It's much more malleable (hence being rolled into sheets) so where B20 cymbals would crack, B8 cymbals can bend and be misshapen. It's not likely though and I doubt it would happen in your case.

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

Well there is one concern with B8 bronze. It's much more malleable (hence being rolled into sheets) so where B20 cymbals would crack, B8 cymbals can bend and be misshapen. It's not likely though and I doubt it would happen in your case.

actually i have heard of an instance of this happening with the 18" giant beat. (not a 'rock' cymbal for those who would like to know)

but i think i'm fairly safe with the 20" and 24".

[Rickk]

I was at a Thomas Lang Clinic a few months ago, he was using new Meinl cymbals and about an hour into the show a huge chunk of cymbal from I believe a 16" crash went flying across the stage, he kept playing but the Meinl rep made his way out to pick up the piece.
I really don't think it was the way he struck it, It seems to have been a weak spot on the cymbal. Just my observation.

Rick

[the skin man]

I was at a Thomas Lang Clinic a few months ago, he was using new Meinl cymbals and about an hour into the show a huge chunk of cymbal from I believe a 16" crash went flying across the stage, he kept playing but the Meinl rep made his way out to pick up the piece.
I really don't think it was the way he struck it, It seems to have been a weak spot on the cymbal. Just my observation.

Thomas Lang wasn't always using glancing blows when I saw him the other night : -)

[Thedude]

[QUOTE=radiofriendlyunitshifter;296168]that's good to know. out of curiosity, how many paistes have you sent back?

Four signatures if memory serves me, over the course of ten years or better, But i have owned at one point or another 15 or so. Only one now though. I mostly have dark energys and 2002's and a few discontinued models 3000's and 2000's. Never had a problem to date with the dark energys and trust me i have put them to the test. As you may know they are , like signatures, made from b15. I really cant say enough on how good i personally have been treated by the people at paiste. It kind of bums me out that this thread in some way has turned into a debate of which alloy is better or worse. Durable not durable...whatever, I always judge my cymbals on how they sound to me. I really couldnt care less what alloy they are made from.

[Rickk]

Thomas Lang wasn't always using glancing blows when I saw him the other night : -)

I guess your right but he sure is a great drummer, these were new cymbals, I have hit my cymbals many times and hard on the edge and still no breaks, But I see your point.

Rick

[the skin man]

I guess your right but he sure is a great drummer, these were new cymbals, I have hit my cymbals many times and hard on the edge and still no breaks, But I see your point.

Actually, I'm still not convinced that the whole glancing blow thing is for real and that it really saves cymbals. Also, whether or not someone is hitting with a glancing blow for any given crash stroke seems to be a matter of degree - it's not an either/or thing. Maybe it's a little like the Paiste durability thing: it's something that people claim to know is true, but they can't necessarily back it up. Although it looks like the Paiste durability thing has been proven true: Paiste does have durability problems when it comes to the B15 alloy.

[jazzgregg]

Actually, I'm still not convinced that the whole glancing blow thing is for real and that it really saves cymbals. Also, whether or not someone is hitting with a glancing blow for any given crash stroke seems to be a matter of degree - it's not an either/or thing. Maybe it's a little like the Paiste durability thing: it's something that people claim to know is true, but they can't necessarily back it up. Although it looks like the Paiste durability thing has been proven true: Paiste does have durability problems when it comes to the B15 alloy.

The glancing blow thing has for sure been proven, by science in fact. Not sure if I can explain this in words, but here it goes:

A cymbal struck straight on will fire all the sound waves back across the cymbal to the tip of the stand. The stand will impede their travel, jarring the waves, causing stress on the cymbal. A glancing blow on the other hand will send the sound waves with the cymbal grooves (if it has them) going away, uninterrupted from the cymbal and out into the air, causing little stress on the cymbal itself. Think of getting punched in the face, vs. a glancing blow- the more your face absorbs the punch, the more damage it will do.

Does this make sense?

G

[the skin man]

Does this make sense?

Well, physics and visual/spatial stuff isn't really one of my strong points, but if what everyone means by a glancing blow is what I think everyone means by a glancing blow, then a glancing blow is just like a regular blow accept the stick strikes the cymbal at less than a 90 degree angle relative to the surface of the cymbal whereas with a regular blow the stick strikes the surface at a 90 degree angle. I'm not sure it really makes sense to speak of a 90 degree angle with a curved surface, but that's generally the way I was looking at it. Now, if the stick strikes at less than a 90 degree angle or more if you're counting the angle from the other side, it seems like the shock wave would go with the direction that the stick hit the cymbal around the cymbal to the left or to the right side of the cymbal with less vibrations going directly to the bell and the hole? And that's a smaller space and the vibrations stop directly at the hole and get reflected directly back and the creates a large amount of vibration in a small space which stresses the cymbal more. I guess that makes sense. But I don't think key thing is the stand. I think the key thing is the bell and the hole and the fact that cymbal has a circular shape. So I guess that could account for the circular cracks on the bow of the cymbal closer to the bell. But then how do you account for the cracks that form on the edge and point directly toward toward the center of the cymbal? Those could come from hitting the cymbal on the edge. What if someone did really weird glancing blows directed toward the center of the cymbal? Would those be more likely to break the cymbal than regular non-glancing blows? I'd imagine that would have to be the case if your explanation for why glancing blows are better is true.

[the skin man]

If the thing about the shock waves being reflect back at the hole is true, then I'd imagine that a cymbal like a Sabian o-zone crash would break sooner than a regular crash. But I've never heard of them lacking durability.

[tomtom]

I want to know how you people crack cymbals in less than a month...it's a new record. Perhaps these 5B + sticks you guys use could be a contributor....


Well, I don´t know if I dare to tell you, but I cracked TWO brand new sig´s on the same gig. I got them that same day, brand new. That was the beginning of the end. I had been playing Paiste (602´s 2002´s, 3000´s, Sound Creation´s, Rude´s, Sig´s) since I started playing and in 20 years time, I broke around 40 of them. In 1994 I switched to a mix of Bosphorus, K Zildjian, Sabian HHX, all thin weight cymbals and in the past 13 years I´ve broken ONE 8" splash. Glansing blows? I learned to use them about 25 years ago and do so all the time.

But Paiste was my first love and they allways have a special place in my heart, but I will never gig them again out of fear of breaking them. Unless... I get a full endorsement deal (feeling very optimistic ;=}

[teejcombos]

man think about it, if you punch a wall with your fist and follow through it will break. if you punch it just enough to make the initial contact it won't break. bad comparison but man, it's bloody obvious how a glancing blow is effective in comparison to hitting the cymbal with your stick and putting follow-through force into it.
man, go look up glance in the dictionary. it has nothing to do with angles.

[the skin man]

man think about it, if you punch a wall with your fist and follow through it will break. if you punch it just enough to make the initial contact it won't break. bad comparison but man, it's bloody obvious how a glancing blow is effective in comparison to hitting the cymbal with your stick and putting follow-through force into it.
man, go look up glance in the dictionary. it has nothing to do with angles.

Thanks for that real straightforward, commonsense explanation, man.

[teejcombos]

Thanks for that real straightforward, commonsense explanation, man. by the way i smell.

LOL, i only said it three times, come on. plus i'd only just woken up.
and for the record, were you being sarcastic? because honestly, i don't find it to be that complex of an action. hit your cymbals, retreat and don't follow through with force. avoid the edge because it's the most brittle part of the cymbal, unless one's cymbals have a reverse taper or something. but, if you're using um, wait for it, glancing blows, the risk is lower of cracking the edge of the cymbal as opposed to slamming the cymbal and pushing into it.
i use/used rock sized sticks and i've never cracked a cymbal since i've learnt how to hit them. the only cymbal i've ever cracked was a ZXT trashformer, and that was when i was hitting the cymbal on the edge with great force, without glancing.

and sorry about the end part of your quote, i'm feeling childish. hahahaha

[the skin man]

i'm feeling childish. hahahaha

Well, at least your being honest. I don't think anyone would disagree with you when it comes to avoiding the edge, and the reason for that seems pretty clear but I'm still not sure the "retreat and don't follow through with force" is the same as what jazzgreg is saying when he says this:

A cymbal struck straight on will fire all the sound waves back across the cymbal to the tip of the stand. The stand will impede their travel, jarring the waves, causing stress on the cymbal. A glancing blow on the other hand will send the sound waves with the cymbal grooves (if it has them) going away, uninterrupted from the cymbal and out into the air, causing little stress on the cymbal itself.

It may be two different things or it may be the same in some way. But the whole glancing blows thing really is a topic for a different thread, so maybe someone should start one if they want to keep going with this.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

It's the same thing. You're asking why there are sometimes issues with cymbal breakage, your question got answered. Not the topic for another thread.

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

that's good to know. out of curiosity, how many paistes have you sent back?

Four signatures if memory serves me, over the course of ten years or better, But i have owned at one point or another 15 or so. Only one now though. I mostly have dark energys and 2002's and a few discontinued models 3000's and 2000's. Never had a problem to date with the dark energys and trust me i have put them to the test. As you may know they are , like signatures, made from b15. I really cant say enough on how good i personally have been treated by the people at paiste. It kind of bums me out that this thread in some way has turned into a debate of which alloy is better or worse. Durable not durable...whatever, I always judge my cymbals on how they sound to me. I really couldnt care less what alloy they are made from.

goodness. more than a quarter of the sigs you've owned have broken. add that up with

tomtom's testimonial... it's hard to say that the sig alloy doesn't have any inherent flaws

just from those numbers.

and as far as glancing blows go...

straight from paiste (http://www.paiste.com/faqs/default.php?faqcategoryid=3&faqid=78):

Correct Playing Technique
Avoid Undue Shock Circular Cuts Example The cymbal's edge is the thinnest and most delicate part so how you strike it and at which angle is very important. It is generally best to angle the cymbal at a downward position so you will be able to hit it with a glancing blow. You can also strike the cymbal using a pull back stroke technique (see fig. 14 a & b), which avoids undue shock and stress to the cymbal. Hitting the cymbal dead on in a mounted position (see photo 3), will cause unnecessary stress and breakage. This stress does not allow the cymbal to vibrate correctly, and often a player will tend to overplay the cymbal because of incorrect angles and heights.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/radiofriendlyunitshifter/glancing.gif

Sometimes drummers prefer mounting their cymbals all flat, usually for visual effect. If you choose to do this, we suggest you mount your cymbals low enough to strike them with glancing blows. This will make them last a long time while achieving the look you want.

Remember to choose the right cymbal for the situation. An example of a poor choice would be a small, light cymbal for Heavy Metal music. Overplaying a cymbal will not give you more sound, it will only cause the cymbal to break before its time. Overplaying also makes you work harder than necessary. Spend time getting familiar with your cymbals and their dynamic ranges. The more you know about them, the better you will play them.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

The B15 alloy isn't inherently flawed, it's more likely to be a consistent issue with Paiste's manufacturing. It's been pointed out here that the processes which create their unique sound may also contribute towards slight weaknesses in the cymbal. The alloy itself is not at fault.

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

The B15 alloy isn't inherently flawed, it's more likely to be a consistent issue with Paiste's manufacturing. It's been pointed out here that the processes which create their unique sound may also contribute towards slight weaknesses in the cymbal. The alloy itself is not at fault.

yes, i see. i wonder then what the techniques are that are utilized for b15 alloy that makes

them more susceptible to 'stress fractures' than any other alloy?

can anyone offer any insight? i'm assuming it's an integral part of the process, or they obviously would have eliminated it.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I don't know, but I assume it'll involve some sort of high pressure formation. Paiste say that it's an integral part of the process, but it's not the alloy that's weak. It's merely the manufacturing method.

[jazzgregg]

them more susceptible to 'stress fractures' than any other alloy?

can anyone offer any insight? i'm assuming it's an integral part of the process, or they obviously would have eliminated it.

You probably won't get too much info, being that it's a secret process, making cymbals.

G

[Thedude]

[QUOTE=radiofriendlyunitshifter;297196]goodness. more than a quarter of the sigs you've owned have broken. add that up with

tomtom's testimonial... it's hard to say that the sig alloy doesn't have any inherent flaws

Yea it really sucks, they crack and then they send me a brand new one. What a bummer.


Its not the alloy , its the process, and who cares? As long as you dont abuse the cymbal and keep your reciepts more than likley you"ll get it replaced.

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

You probably won't get too much info, being that it's a secret process, making cymbals.

G

making cymbals isn't a secret process. yes, there are certain steps of the process that are

kept hidden from others, but the entire process, no. so i didn't think it would hurt for me to ask if anyone had any ideas.

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

Yea it really sucks, they crack and then they send me a brand new one. What a bummer.


Its not the alloy , its the process, and who cares? As long as you dont abuse the cymbal and keep your reciepts more than likley you"ll get it replaced.

well i guess i care or else i wouldn't be asking? no need to get defensive, i was just asking.

i've got nothing against paiste. i own their cymbals as well.

[the skin man]

I don't know, but I assume it'll involve some sort of high pressure formation.

If by "high pressure formation" you mean a hydraulic press applied to the whole cymbal blank at the Paiste plant, then guess again, bad boy. That only applies to the bell. The rest of the cymbal is hammererd into shape either with a manually controlled analog machine hammer or with traditional style hand hammering.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

If it hasn't escaped your notice, rolling the cymbal after formation from the furnace would also be a high-pressure function performed on semi-molten alloy. At that point, the alloy could potentially be at it's most brittle (due to the rapid cooling that occurs from the second it is withdrawn from the furnace) and if the manufacturing process involves a higher than usual number of rolls, then there's a potential that the alloy could become inherently brittle, or that stress fractures are put into it at the time of manufacture. That's before we even go into the pressing of the bell.

Do Paiste even totally hand hammer any more? I thought it was all hydraulic, with the difference being that the location of the marks was manual.

[the skin man]

If it hasn't escaped your notice, rolling the cymbal after formation from the furnace would also be a high-pressure function performed on semi-molten alloy. At that point, the alloy could potentially be at it's most brittle (due to the rapid cooling that occurs from the second it is withdrawn from the furnace) and if the manufacturing process involves a higher than usual number of rolls, then there's a potential that the alloy could become inherently brittle, or that stress fractures are put into it at the time of manufacture. That's before we even go into the pressing of the bell.

It sounds like you're thinking of single-cast B20 cymbals, not B15 "sheet bronze" cymbals. Even in the case of single-cast B20s, I don't believe the any "formation from the furnace" takes place. Rather, the ingots are heated in the furnace, then the rolling takes place and this rolling results in a much flatter shape. The B15 blanks that Paiste orders from the metal supplier have been punched into circular shapes from a large sheet of bronze made at a large facility the probably makes many other types of sheet metal. They are not rolled with any high pressure equipment after they arrive at the Paiste factory, as far as I know, although the bell is pressed after they have been heated, either in the furnace or perhaps manually with a blow torch. After the bell has been formed, the rest of the cymbal is made with hammering and lathing, at least for the professional models. The most likely source of inconsistency with the B15 Paistes might be the hammering itself. Slightly different hammering patterns used to compensate for inconsistencies at particular stages of the manufacturing process can likely be used to create a consistent cymbal profile and sound, but they may inadvertently create differences in durability. Otherwise, it would seem that the mostly likely source of durability inconsistency would have to be something coming from the metal supplier itself.


Do Paiste even totally hand hammer any more? I thought it was all hydraulic, with the difference being that the location of the marks was manual.

It depends on what you mean by hand hammer. If by hand hammer, you mean striking the cymbal with a hand held hammer, then yes that still is used, I believe on all the professional models. But most of the hammering is hydraulic in which both the location of the marks and the degree of force is manually determined. The force is not supplied by human muscles in this case, although the amount of force the machine will exert is under manual control.

[schist]

Well, really, he was just reading my posts, and pointing out what I had already said, so yeah, he can speak for me, especially if it needs repeating=).

Driver makes an excellent point, and well put too.

It IS true, cymbals CAN break for any number of reasons, however, you don't need to be a genius to know what kinds of cracks cracks are caused by what factors (angle, tightness, etc.). I don't mean to derail your thread Thedude, not at all, I just get really sick of people always saying 'oh, Paiste has durability problems', 'Traditionals are flimsy' and stuff like that. I have always used Paiste's too (17 years or so), except for a few years where I used Sabian's (I was misguided) and I have never had a dud, nor had one inexplicably break on me.

G

I think he's just looking for an excuse to say "OMG ZILDJIANS R BETTER!!!11"

[Thedude]

well i guess i care or else i wouldn't be asking? no need to get defensive, i was just asking.

i've got nothing against paiste. i own their cymbals as well.

Sorry for the late reply, been traveling. Anyway, i didnt mean to come off as defensive just being sarcastic. And for those of you interested{if any} my new twenty series should be back to me in a couple of weeks. Unfortunantly right now its on a boat somewhere in the pacific ocean but should be in port by the 16th. Ooooops, now this thread may turn into who has a better distribution and inventorys......oh well, dont care about that either.

[Thedude]

We can put this thread to sleep now.My replacement got here today, once again the people at paiste were super cool and very efficient with my R.A. I am now fully convinced that my first twenty sereies was somehow a dud because the new one is clearly better sounding. My first one just didnt sound right to me. There was something messed up about the sustain of the cymbal almost like part of it was trapped...I dont know. Anyway im going to get to know this cymbal and post a new thread with my review. Later

[PHIL2007]

Durability issues?


In 1979........... I aquired a Paiste 2002 set of 14" Heavy Hats, 18" Crash, 20" Ride. They came with the set. They were exactly two years old when I got them. I sold them in 2003. For more than their 1977 purchase price. I would call that durable. Since 1999, Ive used Signatures, 2002s, Traditionals, and have never, not once had a problem with durability. Cymbals break, I understand that. But I dont think nearly as many break from manufacturing defects as from player induced failures.I was about to say..how hard are you hitting? I see this more often than not,drummer smacking a thin crash mercilessly and wondering why it cracked.
Guys top big name pros have said it over and over again,If you play hard,you need cymbals that can take the punishment,i mean, you dont see Joey Kramer of Aerosmith playing thin crashes? no, because if he did, he would...what?....crack them!
I know, heavy crashes do not sound as sweet as thin-med-thin crashes do,but their durability factor is way higher!!

[jazzgregg]

We can put this thread to sleep now.My replacement got here today, once again the people at paiste were super cool and very efficient with my R.A. I am now fully convinced that my first twenty sereies was somehow a dud because the new one is clearly better sounding. My first one just didnt sound right to me. There was something messed up about the sustain of the cymbal almost like part of it was trapped...I dont know. Anyway im going to get to know this cymbal and post a new thread with my review. Later

Cool man. See doubters, we told you so.

Looking forward to the review.

G