sound engineers help wanted please

[13enson]

me and my band are at the stage now where we want some good studio quality recordings. the problem is we all ready have some some high quality kit for mixing and interfacing:

a peavey xr684 stereo power mixer.
http://http://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/acatalog/Powered_Mixers.html (http://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/acatalog/Powered_Mixers.html)
8 phantom powered tracks.

an electroharmonix 2880 super multitrack loop recording pedal.
http://http://www.ehx.com/ehx2/Default.asp?f=%2FCatalog%2F01_New_Products%2F09_28 80&q=f (http://www.ehx.com/ehx2/Default.asp?f=%2FCatalog%2F01_New_Products%2F09_28 80&q=f)
records and stores recordings digitally at cd quality.

i dont really know much about recording and this sort of thing, although i have mannaged to pick up one or two things during my days in a band and also just by scanning a few of the threads on this forum. plus i am an eletronic enginnering student so i know the od thing about capasitors and phasor diagrams.

basically recording in a studio is expensive (around £400 for all our songs). my idea would be to spend about that on some half good mic's and also sorting out acoustics in our band room to give it a good recording sound.
with that i would get a basic mic set for snare/bass/toms. then one or two good large diaphram condensor mic's used for overheads and recording other things such as vocals and the such like. would use the peavey mixer to get levels right for drums then the 2880 to save the output digitally.

i have just started thinking about this and thought i would like to know what you lot think. any information, hints, tips, anything at all. Any help would be great!

much apreciated,

J Benson

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

So you're going to record the band from the mixer into the two track (I presume) inputs on the pedal (the link isn't working)? I'd consider that you rethink a bit, although that *could* work, but the pedal really, really is not designed for that. Not at all. £400 isn't actually a bad price at ALL. In some studios, that'll be a day's work so £400 is pretty reasonable. Obviously, for that money you could get yourself a fair setup at home provided that you already had an appropriate computer.

Now then.

What I suggest you do is the following.

Buy an audio interface (minimum of four inputs really, although you could probably just about get away with two) and use the mixer to route channels into the audio interface channels, provided that your interface comes with jack inputs for the line out (no need to put that through a preamp!). So, for instance, if you had the drum kit set up as four channels you could just put that straight into the interface. Two overheads, snare and bass. If you had more on the kit, you'd have to group them on the desk and then put them into the interface. Obviously with a computer multitracking isn't an issue.

What kind of microphones do you have? That'll make a massive difference to the quality of your recordings. I'd recommend something along the lines of a pair of Rode NT5's for the overheads (or AKG C-1000), an SM57 (or equivalent dynamic) for the snare and and AKG D112 for the bass drum (although not my favourite, the Audix D6 is probably out of your price range). Obviously then you need to factor in the stands, which is probably about £15 for each stand. The interface will be about £200, or if you can stretch to £300, a Presonus FirePod would be an EXCELLENT choice. All these microphones can be used on other instruments too. Worry thee not.

Basically, my point is this. For next to nothing, your recordings will sound just like that. Next to nothing. The loops pedal looks neat, but REALLY isn't designed for recording. For £400 you could probably get yourself a fair start on recording and with enough work you could get a decent sounding demo, AND be able to record again the next time it comes around to it. For more money, obviously, you can get better gear. So far my studio has cost around £800 and I don't even have an interface or microphones yet! Just a MIDI setup.

Recording is an expensive business, but if you expect good results you have to shell out. Otherwise what you'll get a mess that sounds truly horrendous and isn't going to impress anyone. Any questions, feel free to post them up.

[Pearl Player]

Oh my... First of all the link to this pedal is not working.

So how much can it record...

You can get some decent recordings.. But match studio quality. Probably not.... Your missing gates, Compressors, Limiters and FX. Now a note in the vast majority of studios your gonna have Multi Track recording.. Were each mic goes to it OWN channel in the recorder... Then they mix it down and add the FX. Can we say BIG BUCKS? Also there is a reason most studios are rather large.. Has to do with room accoustics.. And if you have a small room the more mics you have the worse its gonna be expecially with other live amplified instruments.. There all gonna get into all the other mics... And that will kill the separation. So with a smaller room the better way to do it would be record the drum part to a click track first then add each other part to that recording... I would suggest you invest first in some sort of Studio recording book.... Check your local book store or music store for this...
Most studios also record at way higher quality than CD... like 24 bit and a minimum of 16K sampling. Usually pedals are not going to be adequate to do what you want. Your asking a system that is made for guitar to act as a studio recorder. Not a good way to do it.

Like I said you can get a decent recording. But if you want to get true studio quality I dont think this is gonna work for ya.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news... Start with a good book first on studio recording, There is great information in mics, micing technique, even good info on how to dampen the room and how to ensure separation...

Mike

[hawk9290]

The problem I see is that you say "half good"
Don't go for half good if it would cost the same to have it done professionally at a recording studio. Recording is not something you want to skimp on.
I would strongly recommend a Pro Tools System- it will cost you more, but it gives you all the features of professional recording studios without losing quality.
To start, I would say get either the M-Audio Firewire 1814 Pro Tools system or the 410. That will probably be £400 and £200 respectively. With the 1814, which I would recommend, you could run the outputs on your mixer into the line inputs on the 1814, as well as the 1814 has two XLR preamps on the front. This setup will give you whatever your mixer is capable of plus two more mic inputs, all on separate digital tracks with the same software the professional studios use. Plus, as you grow, you can the get more pre-amps such as the PreSonus Digimax, M-Audio Octane, etc and run them through the ADAT Lightpipe and expand your pre-amps to 8 more, 16 more, etc...


As for mics, any of the ones MFB mentioned, but also I was very suprised with the quality of the MXL 993 Condenser mics, and they are cheaper than the AKG C-1000, but those are also amazing mics.

[13enson]

that's great, thanks for all your comments.
sorted the links, the http bit was in there twice.

maybe i was a bit naive saying i want studio quality recordings, i apreciate we have no chance of that, all we really want is a solid demo that can 'impress' people. i also get what your saying about the loop pedal but, for completely bog standerd recordings, it has some usefull features. for some recordings we did using that pedal alone, follow the link in my signiture (i used a roland td-6). we recorded drums and then recorded the rest seperately playing along with the recording of the drums. caused some timing issues in some places but i put that down to beeing inexpierienced as musicians and not being patient enough to re-do things when we cock up.

you mention having a big room is important. what kind of size would you say is too small? the one we had in mind is about 4.3m*4.3m*3m but there are bigger and smaller rooms available if need be. also, can what is in the room effect acoustics? like a sofa and TV.

i think just being able to record music without worrying about wasting time/money in a studio would be an infinately usefull thing for a band in our posistion. i guess it comes down to how much recording quality we are willing to sacrifice for it. being students in a band we naturally dont have any money and will spend time on not spending money.

i guess my question is quite simply is "does £400 + no expierience - a studio = a worthwhile recording venture?..." i think i will buy a book of somesort.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

May I recommend 'Modern Recording Techniques' (Sixth Edition) by David Miles Huber and Robert E. Runstein. ISBN 10:0-240-80625-5

It's my standard recording textbook I use for my Music Technology/Sound Engineering course and it has pretty much everything you could care to imagine in it. Good textbook for sure, you could teach yourself a LOT of the material in here without the need for outside help.

I'm just not convinced on those Pro Tools setups Hawk. But then again I'm used to Logic and probably stuck in my ways just a bit. I just think that a FirePod might be an easier choice, but I do appreciate the fact that you'll probably have to get the DAW software separately. I've never really used Pro Tools mind, it's just not my thing and I've not been given the chance. Ultimately though, I like the idea of fully integrated and complimentary hardware and software, I just worry about flexibility. Although I'm willing to listen. More than willing.

As for acoustics, talk about a kettle of fish. Basically... a large room with flat walls will have a very high reflectivity level and you'll have a lot of ambient reverberation and due to the size of the room, all these sounds will reach you at different times, which could cause phase issues in very sensitive microphones. Parallel walls are generally to be avoided if possible (can double up certain wavelengths that are mathematically corresponding to the size of the room). Having objects like a sofa in the room can be a fairly good idea if you want to soak up some of the extra noise, but really a lot of acoustics is very subjective. High ceilings can be good for natural drum sounds. The room size you describe sounds fairly good, but there's so much that goes into room acoustics that it's hard to say.

[hawk9290]

I'm just not convinced on those Pro Tools setups Hawk. But then again I'm used to Logic and probably stuck in my ways just a bit. I just think that a FirePod might be an easier choice, but I do appreciate the fact that you'll probably have to get the DAW software separately. I've never really used Pro Tools mind, it's just not my thing and I've not been given the chance. Ultimately though, I like the idea of fully integrated and complimentary hardware and software, I just worry about flexibility. Although I'm willing to listen. More than willing.


I wasn't convinced on the Pro Tools until I began using it a few weeks ago. There really aren't any compatibility issues as long as you have a Digidesign or M-Audio interface- everything else can be run through the ADAT In or Firewire In on those, so expansion is relatively easy. For basic recording, a Pro Tools system probably is more than necessary, and to start out, something like a FirePod or DigiMax is just fine and you can use that with other software. Whats great is that if you do then go to a Pro Tools setup, just plug your FirePod of DigiMax into the Pro Tools interface and your off! Before I used it, I always thought it was superfluous and overpriced, but now that I've used it, I don't think I'll go back- its very solid and, well, professional. I haven't used Logic to much, but what deterred me from that is that Logic Express could only do 12 simultaneous tracks while Pro Tools LE can do 32, and I need at least 16. I'm sure Logic is good, but the specs for Pro Tools sold me, as well as the expandabilty of the software as well as hardware. I'm curious what you see in Logic better than Pro Tools?

[Pearl Player]

Pro Tools is great software and really stable.. We in the studio have a Roland Digital console and an outboard 24 track digital recorder... So for the basic work its all done with that. Then we have Pro Tools on a couple of other computers that we have interfaced to the 24 track... So at those times we can use pro tools unfortunatly pro tools wont control the roland board... But at least we can work offline... Pro Tools is kinda pricey but I think in the long run really worth the money...

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I suppose I've just never given it a go. I'm sure my Logic Express can do more than 12 tracks simultaneously, out of interest Hawk, which version were you using? The top PC version is 5.5 and the top version on Mac is now 7, which is what I run. Pro Tools does seem like a good idea, but I'd still need a lot of convincing.

[khanedeliac]

I suppose I've just never given it a go. I'm sure my Logic Express can do more than 12 tracks simultaneously, out of interest Hawk, which version were you using? The top PC version is 5.5 and the top version on Mac is now 7, which is what I run. Pro Tools does seem like a good idea, but I'd still need a lot of convincing.

Hey MFB, long time no word, its because Im knee deep in MAX/MSP projects due this tuesday...what a headwarp of a program.
It seems like you will be doing what Im doing now In a couple of years....except I never got the chance to study music tech. at school. (you lucky trout!)

The Pro Tools setups are better for recording live instruments, where as I find Logic (Pro 7 is what Im using) is better for MIDI and sequencing, and more user friendly. Therefore, its really depends on one's needs.
I am a Logic fan too (plus I dont have the money for both setups!)

For this fellow who posted first about getting decent recordings, where are you based? Think of contacts one of you might have, if any of you have access to educational facilities of some sort, (usually universities) they will have a setup in the music dept. or media dept. which you may be able to record in. My university has a full studio with Pro Tools setup and drum booth and all the mics I would need thanks to being mates with the Technician.
Friends in low places, it is key to success.

O.P., What exactly worries you about getting the recordings done professionally? or is that not in your financial range?

[hawk9290]

The Pro Tools setups are better for recording live instruments, where as I find Logic (Pro 7 is what Im using) is better for MIDI and sequencing, and more user friendly. Therefore, its really depends on one's needs.

I'd agree with that. I use Band In A Box to do all my midi and then I put that into Pro Tools, so that is a downside, although the PT is getting better at that part i heard in their new update. Logic Express 7 I never had a chance to run more than 12 simultaneous instrument track to, but I saw that in its specifications.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Well Khan, I studied music tech for a year at school and now I'm at college, hoping to study at university, but I would also LOVE to do acoustics of some sort. Just what I'm into. I'm just getting into sequencing and I actually enjoy editing in Logic, whereas I've had horrible experiences before in Cubase and Cubasis. Not a whole lot of fun for me, it really put me off MIDI for a while.

[khanedeliac]

Yeah, the system for those who want to pursue the arts is much better here in the UK. In Spain, the main focus is on so-called "academic" subjects (moneyspinners) I envy you for being able to study it at various levels before going to Uni.

Sorry if what I said before sounded weird, I read it afterwards and thought "What did I even mean?" Basically, I thought you would also go to university to study something to d0 with Music Technology. Didnt want to sound like a condescending prat though, so I hope I didnt.
Cubase is all too limiting, Logic 7 really does hit a lot of nails on a lot of heads.
We should definetely continue this conversation in a couple of days. (after Im done with this current project, and IM SORRY I havent mailed you my dissertation but it will be done soon), I dont want to hijack a man's thread, however.

To the Original Poster, good luck with your quest to record a good demo and remember to exhaust all possibilities. Keep in mind that buying your own equipment means you can have quite a few goes at getting that perfect take with no sound engineer getting pissed off....as many goes as you like!

[13enson]

this thread has kind of turned into a debate about software. this isnt really a problem as i am learning but this content would probalby be best off elsewhere...

thanks everyone for taking the time to share with me what you know. i dont know what i would have ended up doing if you didnt.

i will post up some results of what we end up doing, although it is more than likely i will need some more information off you guys before then.

thanks again,
J Benson.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

No problems mate. Good luck with it, recording can be a lot of fun or the most terrible drag you've ever experienced, purely depending on what happens. Learning a few basics definitely helps get rid of most of the tedium though.

Khan, chill mate. I would very much like to read it, but I want to make sure you do the best you can! The email you sent me a while back was endlessly fascinating and I'm still chewing a lot of it over.