How do you know when you have good timing?

[gusty]

How do you know say when you're playing when other people that you're keeping in time? I know that without a metronome i cant keep time, so how do i do it? And how long does it usually take to get good timing?

[NUTHA JASON]

there are lots of ways and cues. a frown from the bassist. the singer battles to get to their notes. talk to the guys. record yourself.

among my students i usually see a good ability to keep time when playing a beat. the problem occours when there is a change of beats (ie verse to chorus) or a fill. one preactice regime i use with them to combat that is sort of a game. they set their metronome at a comfortable speed (80 bpm) and play time then they do a fill. they must end the fill with a crash on the one and then, here's the game part, they must play the fill exactly the same every measure four times in a row. then they must change one thing about the fill (dynamics, which toms they hit, add a flam etc) and repeat that four times in a row and so on.
the next step is to get the student to play this game but with the hihat being pedalled throughout the fills.
another game for the more advanced pupil is to instruct them where in the measure the fill must start. so they have to fill up an odd length of time with rolls flams etc until they find the one of the next measure.

but here's the crunch. in any stage of these exercise games i may ask them to not use the metronome (usually to start off i'll sit and click sticks for them ...and just get softer over time until they are keeping the time in their heads) i discourage counting during fills.

j

[gusty]

Funny thing you say that about the bassist. At our last practice we were arguing about time keeping. I had a click track through headphones (this is the first time ive done this with the band, so i was expecting us to lose (or gain, but most likely lose) time.) After a few runs through he said to take the headphones off because i sounded crap with them on (not playing with emotion, not coming in on cues and so forth). I was saying that was wrong- I couldnt keep time, and the metronome proved that. He hasn't had any proper musical training, so he doesn't know these things, he just doesn't get it. Anyway, he has now left the band. Getting back on topic...

My problem is that I get a tempo, but i dont know if im slowing down or speeding up or keeping it. In out school jazz band, the instructor has been telling me im not keeping time, although i think im getting better. How do you actually develope you're internal clock? Does this occur through practise with a metronome? Wouldn't practise without a metronome just keep you at the same level time keeping? I'm a bit confused...

[funkster5TP]

It all depends on the musical situation. I've done gigs in the past at larger venues with a female solo singer. All her music had been written out and the whole rhythm section played to the click. This is alot easier in some ways but this was a session band and we had little rehearsal time.

If your playing less "popy" stuff, say with a band or in a group where there is more room for improvisation then you have to rely on your internal rhythm and sense of time.

The way i did it was to take a click track and play grooves and rudiments to certain tempos. I started at 35bpm and i moved up 5bpm at a time. I only moved up when i was confident that the one i was practicing was solid enough that i would be confident playing it at a gig or in the studio. This gave me a good sense of how fast certain tempos should be so if in a depping situation someone said a song was a certain tempo it wouldn't be a problem.

I think it's important to be able to play at all tempos not just fast medium and slow. A good marker to work from is 60bpm. You just count seconds and your perfectly in time. This means you can get a perfect 120bpm and a perfect 30 bpm. Once you have them it is easy to estimate tempos in between.

Once you are confident playing at any tempo then you have to work out a way of keeping yourself in time when playing without a click in a musical situation. Most drummers use their left foot to keep time. They play quarter notes or eighth notes on their hi-hat. I have found this is the easiest way to keep time. When you're playing your hats you can keep time with your left heel. There are co-ordination issues here but it's just practice!

Once you can take any tempo and keep time with your left foot then time keeping should become alot easier. Your question was "how do you know when you have good timing?" and the answer is you don't. You just have to be confident that you've put the hard work and your playing is solid. Then people will TELL YOU that you have good time keeping.

Hope that helps
D

[gusty]

Your question was "how do you know when you have good timing?" and the answer is you don't. You just have to be confident that you've put the hard work and your playing is solid. Then people will TELL YOU that you have good time keeping.

Hope that helps
D

Yeah it does. Thanks for that. But how do I practise getting my timing without a metronome solid?

[funkster5TP]

A good way of doing that is to play along with a click and then stop it and play without it for a while and then turn it back on and see if your still in time. Also for practice with estimating tempos you can start playing where you think a tempo is and then turn the click on and see where you are.

I think you'll find that playing with the click and just practicing lots will improve your time keeping when your not playing to a click. If you get really solid with a click when you practice your practicing in perfect time. Because you've practiced like this it will make your groove playing and time awareness really solid because your body is used to playing like this. It will become natural to play in time.

let me know how it goes, cheers
D

[Jeff Almeyda]

Yeah it does. Thanks for that. But how do I practise getting my timing without a metronome solid?

Singing is a great way of developing your clock. Set the metronome at 60 BPM. Now sing 16ths (imitate a closed hi-hat sound) to that beat while playing. You now have two layers of timekeeping. The external (what everyone hears) and the internal (what you are singing to yourself)

The trick is to keep that flow of sixteenths (or 8ths or whatever subdivision works) going in your mind no matter what you are playing "on the outside". You are not counting 1234 so it's a little more musical and natural. It also forces you to concentrate. Once you develop that ability you will be more able to play solid time with or without a click

Another exercise is to sing and/or play a measure of eighths, followed by a measure of 8th note triplets followed by a measure of 16ths. You need to be able to go back and forth between these note subdivisions at will without screwing up the time. Use a click for this one.

Check out Billy Ward's video's. He's got some great time keeping concepts. Also buy a copy of The New Breed by Gary Chester and get busy on it.

Relax. Playing WITH a click also improves your playing without one because your mind is becoming conditioned to accurate tempo. Just hearing where you naturally fall relative to the click raises your tempo awareness.

[gusty]

Thanks for your advice, its appriciated :)

I'll try out what you guys mentioned next time i have access to a drum kit (since its 11:10pm where i am)

[k3ng]

Here's what I did and it worked for me. Although don't neglect your metronome practice. This one can be done anywhere anytime if you've got a radio on or something. Just play the beats to the song, simple beats, or count your 3's or 4's. Turn off the radio, keep counting for a period of time and turn the radio back on. See if you're still in check. Slowly try extending the periods of time that the radio is off.

So you can use this as a side practice when you're not at your kit. It really works to develop your internal clock. Even better if you try listening to a song you seldom hear.

[Wavelength]

There are different ways you can practice with a metronome. Here are a few:

1) Click on 2 and 4.
2) Click on 1.
3) Click on the upbeat of 2 and 4.
4) Click on the upbeat of 1.
5) Click on the last 8th note triplet of each quarter note.
6) Click on the last 8th note triplet of 2 and 4.
7) Click on the last 8th note triplet of 1.
8) Click on the second 16th note of each quarter note.
9) Click on the fourth 16th note of each quarter note.
10) Click on the second 16th note of 2 and 4.
11) Click on the fourth 16th note of 2 and 4
12) Click on the second 16th note of 1.
13) Click on the fourth 16th note of 1.

This sort of practice will help your internal time, because there's no quarter note pulse to guide you -- you have to keep the time steady all by yourself.

[NUTHA JASON]

all this is good advice.

playing along to cds and the radio is also good because the recorded song will not change its time with you as a real band will be forced to. that way you will in fact be forced to adjust to the timeof the record and it helps youfeel your way through the song. it helps you listen to clues or markers in the music and develop a time instinct.

j

[Spreggy]

Hey Gusty, I think one thing that should be automatic for you is whenever you practice anything, you turn on the metronome. I have pads in two rooms and both have mets by them, the drum room has one, they are always on it seems. If you are always practicing to perfect time, you will know when it's off You'll also get a feeling for what the tendancies of rushers and draggers are, the guitar guy that launches his solo like he's hitting the gas, or the horn player that makes the big, dramatic show of inhaling before he drags his butt into his solo lol. Give those guys solid time to hear for sure.

Everybody thinks they know great time, but the only one who really knows is the guy who spends tons of time with the click.

[gusty]

thanks everyone, this is good advice

[theduke86]

The answer to this question is very simple. If you don't know you have good time, you don't have good time.
Good luck to all of us trying to get it.

[gusty]

The answer to this question is very simple. If you don't know you have good time, you don't have good time.
Good luck to all of us trying to get it.

How long does it take (as a general estimation) to get good time?

700th Post

[JRH7]

How long does it take (as a general estimation) to get good time?

700th Post

Gusty,

This one takes time so be patient. It also depends on how much you practice. Also depends how good you want your timing, if you want perfect timing it could take years of intense training. There are very few people born with perfect time. It is kind of like having perfect pitch- very very few people are just born with it, both take alot of training. We as drummers have a tough job because we are expected to keep good time as soon as we start playing our instrument. Singers and guitarist can work their way around not having perfect pitch, but it is hard for us work around not having great timing.
First off, you are not the only one with this problem. There are alot great drummers out there who's timing is not greatest. So don't feel like you are on an island all by yourself. I think that there are a lot of great suggestions in this thread and I would like to add just a few more to help you out.

1. Slow your metronome down. Even as slow 40 BPM. Why, you might ask? There are not many songs you are going to play at 40 BPM. However, playing that slow helps you understand how much space is between each pulse. Count out loud and practice simple qtr. note, 8th and 16th note beats. Try and hold this for twenty minutes.

2. Change the placement of the pulse (click). Start your beat on the ONE but have the click on the &s. Once you are comfortable with this change it to the Es and the As. This helps your internal clock realize that it doesn't matter where the pulse is placed. You will be surprised how different this feels even though your not changing where you starting the beat.

Thats about the only other additions that I have. There is not one way to get great timing and you have to practice multiple ways to build internal clock. Remember, don't get frustrated most drummers who ends up putting a click in their ear go through the initial shock of realizing they don't have the great time they thought they had. Don't kill yourself by setting an intense practice schedule. Start out with a just 30 minutes a day, then turn up the intensity once you are a little more comfortable. Best of luck.

[NUTHA JASON]

Nice post jr

i think it might be useful to define the word time in terms of drumming.

for me perfect time is not only being able to hold a tempo but identify one. a person with perfect pitch can hear a note played on a piano and correctly identify it by name and also sing a named note as well. so to with drums. a perfect time individual would be able to identify BPM from hearing a track and also play a beat at a called for BPM without a metronome.

steady time implies a person who can hold a tempo throughout a song

intuitive time might be someone who can use time non-robotically but more expressively.

IMO

j

[JRH7]

Nice post jr

i think it might be useful to define the word time in terms of drumming.

for me perfect time is not only being able to hold a tempo but identify one. a person with perfect pitch can hear a note played on a piano and correctly identify it by name and also sing a named note as well. so to with drums. a perfect time individual would be able to identify BPM from hearing a track and also play a beat at a called for BPM without a metronome.

steady time implies a person who can hold a tempo throughout a song

intuitive time might be someone who can use time non-robotically but more expressively.

IMO

j

Totally, agree. I was just trying to draw a parallel with other musicians. Maybe that wasn't the best example but I think everyone gets the point I was trying to get accross.

[jonescrusher]

Your goal when using a metronome is to not hear the clicks, i.e. your strokes are so spot on that you've buried the click.
Secondly, you need to work on eliminating any flamming between limbs on the kit. Even being able to recognise that unintentional flamming is happening in your playing can take many years of listening and playing experience. Once you can hear that it is happening your job is to 'calibrate' your limbs, making those tiny adjustments to ensure that whatever voices you're sounding are being sounded in complete unison. I experience a distinguishable feeling when my limbs are playing accurately, with no flamming. Once you can latch on to that feeling (or pocket, i suppose) you're well on the road to good timing.
Being able to control each limb to the extent that no flamming occurs is likely to require parity in strength and development, so you'll likely need to work on your weaker hand and foot to ensure no one hand or foot is of dominant strength.

As per usual, these adjustments and improvements take place over years, not weeks.

[gusty]

thanks heaps everyone :)

[n2xlr8n]

How does one know if they have good time?

When they can score better than 80% on the Beatnik "expert" level at all tempos, LOL.

FWIW, my personal best is 72%....the other levels are fairly easy.

I just THOUGHT I had good meter.

SRJ

[gusty]

How does one know if they have good time?

When they can score better than 80% on the Beatnik "expert" level at all tempos, LOL.

FWIW, my personal best is 72%....the other levels are fairly easy.

I just THOUGHT I had good meter.

SRJ

whats beatnik?
20202020

[JCM]

Sorry to hijack the thread. But what does it mean when people put ' 20202020' at the end of their posts?

[Wavelength]

Sorry to hijack the thread. But what does it mean when people put ' 20202020' at the end of their posts?

Here's what: answer to this post by typing "I see." and you'll figure it out quite effectively... :)

[Drums558]

whats beatnik?
20202020
It's a practice pad that has built in metronome, beat analyzer, etc... Roland also makes one called Rythm Coach that is similar. (I have the roland and love it)

Mike

[Class A Drummer]

I belive its when you can feel the time and improv to it without having to count in your head or use a clikc track. Also when you can do advanced fills and come back in perfectly.

[Dzionix]

same stuff to me. I play with drums 6 years, when i play with metronome, everything is ok, and the fills are cool. When i go to bigband or to orcestrer, there are about 20 musicians, they are unritmical, never played with metronome, so they drops me out of time. And sometimes drunken master is loosing scheme and rythm while conducting...

[KzSgDrummer]

You'll know when you have good timing because by that point you'll have good time!

But for you you need to work on your time first. Do two things: of course you must practice with a metronome. but the second thing is perhaps just as important - record yourself as much as possible, playing with a metronome and without. And for when you record without a metronome, take that metronome and try to keep it in time with what you played while you listen back, so that way you can hear exactly when you start to stray off course (during fills? when you play a certain triplet figure? a certain groove pattern?) and whether you ever return to the established tempo.

Doing that helped me to realize that I was rushing beat 2 coming out of a fill a lot, but by beat 4 or so I was back in the groove. So now whenever I'm coming out of a fill I take this tendancy into consideration and "drag" beat 2, when in reality I'm just keeping the beat in place.

[brittc89]

i feel like I may have developed a fairly steady internal clock by playing a lot with cds when I first began, but it may not be that and Im not sure if I would advocate it as a technique. Sit down with a metrenome and try and build it, but like the duke said, you either get it or you don't, it just has to happen I think for the most part.

[jazzin']

The post wavelength ...err... posted is a brilliant way to develop timing. Start it out simply by just having the click play only on 1 and 3, then change to 2 and 4 at a slow tempo. You'll know straight away if you have good time. Once you get it, move the click back to just every 1 and as you keep progressing follow wavelengths post.

I personally think this is the best way to improve your time. You still have a guide but it is minimal, so you have to adjust your mindset to it and of course with practice over time it will become instinctive.

[gusty]

thanks for the replies

[Echo]

A lot has got do with relaxation too and feeling/hearing the tempo. My main foucus at the moment is jazz and on two nights we had two gigs. the first i slowed almost every piece in our fist set (we had not played for a while) and then in the second set i was more conscious of it and was better.
However for the next gig i could instantly tell when the tempo had dropped just through a relaxed approached to the music and not TRYING to be a metronome.
Don't try to keep the time externally to what is being played but keep time WITH the music. I know it sounds really arty farty but that is just how i see it.

Also sing the head (the tune) in your mind, because the timing of that will be more inate if you know the tune and i think you will be surprised at how accurately you will get the tempo.
What Jazzin' suggested though for practice is great.
E

[spleen]

Hello All,

First post, though I've been lurking for a while now. Great forum!

I really like the suggestions in this thread. I would also recommend Peter Erskine's book/cd combo "Time Awareness."

spleen

[lstardrums]

i dont know if it helps, but i know im keeping good time when i cant hear my metronome click. i keep my click volume up pretty loud so when the click sound fades out i know my strokes are in the right place.

[Skynman]

Good timing is on the entire band not just the drummer! I speed up or slow down based on what the other instruments are doing sometimes! If they speed it up I speed up and vice versa they slow down I slow down! Now sometimes if you know the song you have to hold back the band from rushing the song! Rushing happens a lot in bands especially if they have not worked the song out in practice you can get a beat monitor for your drums set this will help you keep the pace within a few beats per minute it tells you how fast you are playing!

[Wavelength]

When you have a weak time, you'll follow the band almost instictively. When you have a strong, solid time, you will notice which way each member of the band is going time-wise, and you can choose whether to follow the others or LEAD the others by pushing, pulling or locking in. There are situations where you might need to conform to other people's time, and then there are situations when you really have to LOCK the tempo down and not let anyone mess with it.

Lots of solo practice with the metronome coupled with lots of band rehearsals sans metronome will hone your timekeeping skills.

[shuffle]

Lots of solo practice with the metronome coupled with lots of band rehearsals sans metronome will hone your timekeeping skills.

It is very hard for all the band to agree on the timing accuracy after a song unless you also use the metronome for band rehearsals. Our lead singer is very picky with tempo fluctuations. We ended up running a metronome over recorded versions on some songs rehearsed without a click to solve some "discussions", only to find out that nobody is actually right all the time on such issues - everyone's perception on the song is often so different.

We ended up using the metronome pretty much all the time in rehearsals, unless we are working on a completely new song. We find out this way that we almost still hear the click when we choose not to use it. It is the best way we found to improve our band's timing.

The downside of that is that everyone starts listening to the click instead of listening to each other. Ideally, only the drummer would hear the metronome, but it is very unpractical on many songs with drums pauses.

[they_call_me_diesel]

when you have good timing, everything "clicks", and flows together... u wouldn't have to ask if u had good timing... timing is something u have to feel... if u have to ask, do i have good timing... u dont

[jonot]

i discourage counting during fills.

j


Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Advice.

[NUTHA JASON]

Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Advice.


terrible terrible terrible post.

care to back your opinion up, genius?

[shuffle]

among my students i usually see a good ability to keep time when playing a beat. the problem occours when there is a change of beats (ie verse to chorus) or a fill. one preactice regime i use with them to combat that is sort of a game. they set their metronome at a comfortable speed (80 bpm) and play time then they do a fill. they must end the fill with a crash on the one and then, here's the game part, they must play the fill exactly the same every measure four times in a row. then they must change one thing about the fill (dynamics, which toms they hit, add a flam etc) and repeat that four times in a row and so on.
the next step is to get the student to play this game but with the hihat being pedalled throughout the fills.
another game for the more advanced pupil is to instruct them where in the measure the fill must start. so they have to fill up an odd length of time with rolls flams etc until they find the one of the next measure.

but here's the crunch. in any stage of these exercise games i may ask them to not use the metronome (usually to start off i'll sit and click sticks for them ...and just get softer over time until they are keeping the time in their heads) i discourage counting during fills.

j

Hello Nutha

Those last few posts brought me back to this first post of yours, which I had originally missed.

First a few comments. I do a similar routine to practice timing during fills.

I have this book http://www.amazon.com/Mel-presents-Funky-Beats-Breaks/dp/0786632720/ref=sr_1_4/102-0156137-4641775?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175024695&sr=1-4 full of one-bar rhythms and fills, and the way I use the fill portion is as following: I’ll play a simple groove, usually much less busy that the ones in the book, and I’ll pick one given fill, which I’ll insert every four bars. When I’m comfortable, I do the following variations:

1) Keep the metronome on quarters, but remove one, two or three beats from the fill, randomly.

2) Same as above, but keeping the metronome only on the downbeat

Then, if I’m really into it, I’ll move the click a few beats up or down, play 10-15 bars of groove, and do each variation again.

Now about the counting thing, I also don’t quite get why you discourage it. When I practice “variation 2”, I find it much easier to land properly on the next downbeat if I “sing” the quarter note. I don’t think I really go “1-2-3-4”, but there is some sort of pulse-keeping going on in my head which must be very close to it.

I also find counting useful when playing other time signatures. Our lead guitar often comes up with riffs in 5 or 7 (which never make it as actual songs – but that’s another story). Because I am so used to play in 4/4, I often end up relying on counting to insert fills in these, at least until I become comfortable with the groove.

[Spreggy]

When i go to bigband or to orcestrer, there are about 20 musicians, they are unritmical, never played with metronome, so they drops me out of time.
Stop the band! I've been working with a big band for a while, and if people come in late or drag it hard and don't respond immediately when I drop a loud tap or two in to help them find their way back fast, I stop the band. Then I'll say "Hey we're way off here" and everybody plays it tight next time. I guess part of it is your band has to be of the type that appreciates how important the time is. I'm fortunate that the horn section I have besides being the biggest offenders is also quick to admit they're dragging.

[NUTHA JASON]

see jonot... shuffle knows how to motivate his ideas.

to shuffle.
being self taught i never even was really aware of counting fills until i had been playing drums for more than 10 years. my fill vocabulary gradually grew in terms of their length. i developed an instinct for when a fill should start and where it's ene had to come. some fills have a built in pulse because they have bass drum or hihat going beneath the hand stuff but others are just arhythmic and full of expression, creating tension which is resolved when i crash in on the 'one'. my first fills where all just 2 quarters in length and usually only on the snare. then things grew from there. i can look on this in retrospect and i am happy that i have this facility. it is a freedom from numbers. it doesn't help much if i want to write a drum part down (almost never) but literally the only time i count at a gig will be the number of beers i might drink (although i'm quite the teatotaller now). from my point of view counting fills is the same as looking at letters rather than reading a sentence.

i try to attempt to instill that instinct for the duration of a fill and the feel for where it should go in my pupils by not getting them to count a fill but rather beat box it and play it. i use call and answer type approaches in my lessons too to great effect. i have found that counted fills can be come very regular and robotic. a little chaos goes a long way.

j

[gusty]

whats the point of counting it anyway?
unless playing in a time signature which is unfamilar to the player, or they have just started out, wouldn't you be able to just feel when to come down on one?

[NUTHA JASON]

exactly gusty. counting is like scaffolding. useful during construction but what building needs permanent scaffolding? once the support is internal the scaffolding is removed revealing a beautiful building.

j

[gusty]

another analogy! i love em
do you count a lot while playing?

[jonot]

terrible terrible terrible post.

care to back your opinion up, genius?

How about you back up your way of thinking?

[Ozzy Biz]

When people confuse your 2-4 backbeat on snare or left foot pulse on the cowbell for a click-track....


How about you back up your way of thinking?

How about you read post #44 and #46 before saying anything else. I agree with feeling the time as opposed to counting it out. Sure, I still count in my head when I'm reading from sheet music, but not when I'm playing. Read some of Gavin Harrison's posts about not getting counting and maths involved as opposed to playing from feel; he also says it really well in his interview with him in Feb 07 issue of Modern Drummer.

[C.J]

I create a click track with Audacity and then insert silences randomly into the click. Doing it randomly helps you concentrate more becouse you dont know when it's coming. You can make the silence as long or as short as you want and then see if you're still hitting it when the click comes back on.
Challenge yourself and see your improvment by making the gaps longer and longer and the tempo slower.

[NUTHA JASON]

that's goodadvice CJ

and jotnot
How about you read post #44 and #46 before saying anything else

zzzzzzzing! (thanks ozzy)

now jotnot, you're new here so i'll be nice. read whole threads before adding your two pence worth. always back up your opinions especially if they are opposed to someone who posted before you and think before posting.

j

[SickRick]

terrible terrible terrible post.

care to back your opinion up, genius?

OK, I'll back him up because what he said was right even though it wasn't especially polite. Thing is that if you don't count and don't know how to count something you are not totally aware of what you are actually doing. Counting just makes you much more in control of the pulse and the rhythm. By steadily counting (especially whilst practising) you have an ongoing pulse in your mind that you can always rely on.

If you don't count you don't know what you are playing and you are not totally in control of what you are playing. That is as if you were doing something but you don't know exactly what you are doing and you don't know exactly how you are doing it. By counting you analyze your playing and you are controlling yourself - this are the two most effective things to get better.

Of course: If I play a gig with a band that I know very well I won't count. But if the music is unfamiliar or if I have to sightread something (and in many situations this will happen) I will count even if I am on stage.

So yes: Mabye you'll have to back up your way of thinking. You should NEVER EVER discourage anybody of counting. To put this quite drastically: Only teacher that suck would do that, and mostly they would do it because they don't know how to count themselves. If i would meet another drummer who has some timing issues and he would tell me: "Well, my teacher advices me not to count during fills and rather try to "feel" the fill." I'd for sure tell him: "Get a new teacher, I have time on Wednesdays."

[NUTHA JASON]

i agree with most of what you say sickrick but that last paragraph is rubbish and actually trollish and you know it. implications aside, my original point was to move my pupils away from counting AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. so they can play a gig with a band and not count as you say you yourself do (as do i). that's what i meant with the imagery of scaffolding. i think my posts were pretty clear that i don't immediately squash counting but i also encourage feeling the fill through. i'm asking now that this doesn't become another semantics debate as i reiterate i totally agree with this...

OK, I'll back him up because what he said was right even though it wasn't especially polite. Thing is that if you don't count and don't know how to count something you are not totally aware of what you are actually doing. Counting just makes you much more in control of the pulse and the rhythm. By steadily counting (especially whilst practising) you have an ongoing pulse in your mind that you can always rely on.

If you don't count you don't know what you are playing and you are not totally in control of what you are playing. That is as if you were doing something but you don't know exactly what you are doing and you don't know exactly how you are doing it. By counting you analyze your playing and you are controlling yourself - this are the two most effective things to get better.

Of course: If I play a gig with a band that I know very well I won't count. But if the music is unfamiliar or if I have to sightread something (and in many situations this will happen) I will count even if I am on stage.

but that last paragraph and any like it will not be allowed

j

[SickRick]

but that last paragraph and any like it will not be allowed

j

No, it was not rubbish and I totally stand for it. I honestly believe you that you encourage your students to count and it is important that you do. But as you said in your first post: Some guys have trouble holding the time in transitions. But then ESPECIALLY in these transitions it is important to count and - as I believe - dangerous NOT to count. It is HARD to count, but drumming in itself is hard and not doing something on the drums because it might be harder is a cop out (watch the Tony Williams clinic, he sais that quite clearly).

So my last paragraph maybe was harsh - but it was true. A teacher should never ever discourage someone from counting. Especially guys with timing issues (and i believe we were talking about these kind of guys....).

You see: Students always will have a tendency NOT to count so that is something you don't have to teach them - they will do that on their own. I always tell my students this: "If you are on stage or in your rehearsal room you can do whatever you like, but as long as you are in my drumclass you COUNT. If you can do that without working on it - fine. But 99.9% of all students have to WORK on that and they realize this when they are in my class."

So mamy times as a teacher you get replys from students that are like this: "I've worked on that thing (whatever it is) and can play it." So I ask them to play and count and they can't. They then tell me that they can play it without counting - I let them do that and usually what they do is allright but not great. So then I have them play at a third of the tempo and they just fall apart. THEN I have them play at that tempo and count and boom: It works.

Really: Counting is one of the most overlooked and important issues of playing drums and playing them in time.

[NUTHA JASON]

You see: Students always will have a tendency NOT to count so that is something you don't have to teach them - they will do that on their own. I always tell my students this: "If you are on stage or in your rehearsal room you can do whatever you like, but as long as you are in my drumclass you COUNT. If you can do that without working on it - fine. But 99.9% of all students have to WORK on that and they realize this when they are in my class."

An excellent point. i agree there is a natural attrition away from counting. i think this occours particularly when a specific fill has been well learned - a part of the drummer's personal fill vocabulary.

you are obviously a teacher yourself sickrick so i know we are on the same page, as often one does need to break down a new fill for a pupil by showing them where in a bar it starts and how it can be counted for example 1 2 3e a4e& and we might also use words to describe a fill like tommy igoe's description of the 'funky chicken' fill. these scaffolds help the instruction, the memory and the mastery, and as you say they naturally disappear. in my original post i should have been more clear that i don't NOT use counting and nor do i discourage counting until i can see that it is no longer necessary.

They then tell me that they can play it without counting - I let them do that and usually what they do is allright but not great. So then I have them play at a third of the tempo and they just fall apart. THEN I have them play at that tempo and count and boom: It works.


lol, changing the tempo is always a good yardstick. (my latest group of students - a whole family - can play simple beats now but always at the same middle tempo. ask them to slow down and it all goes to pieces)

This sounds like something i would do too. the assessment of the teacher is one of the things that make getting a teacher so important. if you don't have one you have to be brutally honest with your own drumming assessment.

i also know that some of my pupils have a (probably) natural affinity for finding the 'one' and keeping the pulse. others need loads of counting work. each pupil and in some cases each fill demand a different teaching approach.

j

[jazzin']

I found learning to count the largest division or the pulse (ie. quarter notes in 4/4) of the music is in an incredible help, not only for helping to solidify your internal pulse, but also for helping to make sure your subdivisions are right on. I think it's good to count the small subdivisions while practicing or learning something new but then once thats done, counting the pulse will really help solidify your playing and when it becomes natural it's like a metronome going in your head. Saying that though, I don't do this all the time every time. I will not count when I'm playing with people and sometimes not when I'm practicing as well.
Also, when practicing and counting it's not a focus, as in I'm not focusing on the counting. It's just a soft voice or even just a noise like 'da do do da do do' (1 2 3 1 2 3). Although counting is something that has to be practiced because it's like having another limb to control. It's easier without counting but if you get really good at it, it will make your playing better imo.

[SickRick]

As far as for Tempos, I always have this curve in mind - I cannot paint it, but I'll explain:

If you practise something at extremely slow speeds you'll have lot of time to focus on timing, perfect technique, sound, groove.... everything. You hear and see every little mistake you make. It is damn hard to do that but it works.

At very fast tempos you don't have any of this, but you do work on endurance and coordination (coordination in fast tempos feels different than in slow tempos because you usually use smaller motions). So practising at these tempos is also very benefitial.

If you practise at midtempos you don't cover any aspect of these two. You don't see or hear your mistakes as clearly and you don't work on the "small-movement-coordination" or endurance either. So this tempo is a tempo that is just not suited for effective practise.

That is why I leave that tempo out of my routine up until I am totally secure in both the very slow and very fast.

I encourage my students to spend about 70% of the time in the extremely slow tempo range, 25% in the extremly fast tempos and the rest in mid tempos.

As far as counting goes my advice is to count in 16th notes in slow tempos (or triplets if you are playing swung) and to count in quarter notes when playing fast. That also adds some different aspects to drumming.


And again: This is a teaching tool like forcing guys to count: There is a natural tendency to play mid tempos that feel good. So I force students to work in tempos that are unfamiliar to them. It just adds to their playing and confidence.

[n2xlr8n]

Note to newbs: ^^^ this is how you debate politely.

Thanks for the insight, folks.

SRJ

[NUTHA JASON]

an excellent post sickrick. thanks for the advice. playing mid tempos is so natural because pupils are hearing these all the time. there are very few songs which are at the kind of slow tempos which to the practicing drummer is beneficial and playing a pattern fast is very hard without first organising the limbs at slow tempos. pupils gravitate to tempos they are aurally used to. nice one. that's why i take a rhythm watch to every lesson, but i never thought of it like this.


at the moment i'm working on stanton moore's new orleans stuff and while it is fun to play them at the tempos he's playing them with his band and although the feel really seems to kick in at that tempo it is hard to play the RRLRRLRL pattern effectively at slow beneficial tempos. but i had to do it if i was going to get all the footwork in place and get the accents and clave unisons dead on.
as a subnote i tried speeding up the pattern to use in a solo over the toms and recorded it. then when i slowed the tempo down using my module i discovered that i had completely straightened the pattern out and the swing was gone. it still sounds good at thos speeds as a chop but it bears the point out... speed can certainly kill the feel if it hasn't been well established at slow tempos.

j

[SickRick]

Note to newbs: ^^^ this is how you debate politely.

Thanks for the insight, folks.

SRJ

Polite but with passion.

[shuffle]

my original point was to move my pupils away from counting AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. so they can play a gig with a band and not count as you say you yourself do (as do i). that's what i meant with the imagery of scaffolding. i think my posts were pretty clear that i don't immediately squash counting but i also encourage feeling the fill through.
j



He Nutha, a last thing abouth this, and the scaffolding imagery...

This somehow sound to me similar as “A groove played on a click will always sound mechanical”, which I believe is so untrue. By the same token, I don’t think you must stop counting to achieve a good feel. You can groove while counting, just as much as you can groove with a click.

I disagree with the Scaffolding imagery, because it makes counting sound as a bad habit that must go away. I’d be more inclined to go with “keep counting until you do it naturally, internally, and unconsciously.

Sorry if I fall in the semantics area here. My English limitations are often quite frustrating when I write something here. You know what? I’m quite sure you always count. You’ve just achieved that comfort level where it is done without you noticing.

[NUTHA JASON]

fair enough. i guess if you have learned to count while filling then counting while filling works for you. many of my fills are totally unplanned. i literally feel my way into one, play something that feels right and feelmy way out. i don't know that i would have the freedom to do that if i was counting. of course i have a stock of tried and tested fills but its the risk and resolution of the unplanned fill that excites me and often produces the best musical results in me. but that is me.

j

[Auger]

interesting discussion!

I think counting is huge and very relevant to timing. I try to always count when I practice -always. But, unless I'm working on a snare study or doing something analytical, I don't count "one two three..." etc. I'll count with melody -either singing a rhythm sort of along the lines of what jazzin' talked about, or humming what you could almost call a 'mantra' ...like, a little one measure repeating loop of melody.

One of the things I think about counting -and keeping time in general- is that it's all about where your focus is. It's along the lines of what Rick was saying about knowing where you are. People talk a lot about developing a 'sense of time' but I think that that's not really what practicing with a metronome and counting is all about (and, consequently -sorry to reference another thread, but this is why sleeping with a metronome on is absurd, IMO). That's missing the point. It's about teaching your self to pay attention to that sense of time that you already have. If you can clap your hands with a metronome in the most basic way, you have all the sense of time you'll ever need, IMO. The reason that beginners will commonly loose the tempo in a fill is not because their sense of time isn't good, it's because they stop paying attention to it and concentrate on what they're trying to play. To me, it's exactly what rick said in terms of being able to count ...or, being able to pay attention to the time -it's not easy at first. Practicing with a metronome is practicing keeping your focus on where you are, not what you're doing. You can think of it like dancing -professional dancers always know where they are on the dance floor. They can't get so caught up in the move that their making that they stop paying attention to where they are and go flying off the floor. Saying a drummer needs to develop their sense of time is like saying the dancer needs to try and improve their eyesight. Chances are, if you can dance at all, you can see well enough to know where the edge of the dance floor is. You just have to remember to watch that and not just look at your feet and go running into a wall at full tilt.

Here's a twist. What it's also not is just learning a lick: learning a fill to the point where you don't have to count through it or think about it to play it anymore. If the dancer does a move on the same dance floor enough times, they'll be able to do it blindfolded and not go flying off of the floor / know exactly where they are. That's great and all, but not really useful outside of that specific move/drum fill on that specific dance floor. The dancer needs to develop the ability to pay attention to the dance floor all the time. Especially if you have any desire to improvise. J, I don't mean to come across like I’m picking on you here, but I just want to point out that a lot of people would see what you do with teaching a fill and then eventually removing the metronome in favor of ‘feeling through it’ as that it's important to learn licks that you can 'do blindfolded' rather that to become aware of the time in a song. It's the whole give a man a fish / teach a man to fish thing.

So, as a drummer, not a dancer, what exactly are we paying attention to? rhythm isn't "click click click" that's just the metronome stating the passage of time. And, even if you're trying to pay attention to the time, once you get past the beginner level, the situation and, sometimes even the song itself, can also be very distracting -kind of like a darkened dance floor with lots of flashing strobe lights and stuff. Remember, Rhythm is motion, as my teacher says. Pay attention to the movements of your body -Billy Ward's mechanisms concept is awesome for this (not to be confused with pay attenton to what you're doing as opposed to the time ...this is complicated and I'm sorry I'm not really explaining it well here -the dancer analogy is not perfect). And, also, think of the melody of the song. Another thing that my teacher taught me is that you should let the melody be like a lighthouse. If you're in a boat near a rocky coastline, instead of on a dance floor, or a drumset, it's really important you know where you are so you don't sink and, like, die and stuff. You can use the melody of the song to guide you -it's why non-musicians can all sing "happy birthday" in perfect time with each other and always around the same tempo -how often have you ever heard someone rush happy birthday? They're not thinking "click click click" they're thinking of the melody. The melody will lead you to the time. -and don't get frustrated, this is hard stuff. Often, you end up taking something you feel you've already mastered and realizing that you actually haven't …or, along the lines of what Tony Williams said, it’s about taking something that seems easy and making it harder for the sake of doing it well.

Anyway, I hope that wasn't utterly confusing -I probably tried to put more in there than I should have and just skimmed over most of it as a result. ...and I do actually have a day job, so it's time to go do it. have fun!

[gusty]

some really great replies...thanks a heap everyone

[brittc89]

I think its pretty common knowledge that nearly all instrumentalists in symphonies and big bands keep an internal system of small subdivisions going through their head because the smaller the subdivisions the more accurate the note placement. When you talk about just feeling a fill, I think you would definitely fare well in a jazz combo or classic rock setting, where, to be perfectly honest, accuracy is not key, but more emotion. But in today's modern pop/ rock, heavy metal, hip hop, etc etc genres that have managed to so successfully dominate every mainstream media, accuracy is vital to the player, playing it right and playing it exactly to a click (every single note of every single groove and every single fill lines up more than perfectly is what gets you paid in a studio. If you dont know how to count and subdivide in music, especially while playing to a click, this is simply so much more difficult. If you cant play it right, whats to stop them from getting a machine to do it who can? Plenty do.

[Jaden]

singing the songs lyrics (or say if I only know one verse I just repeat it over and over) under my breath in a semi babble (one couldn't even tell my lips were moving has helped me tremendously when Im playing with other people (not just myself with a metronome).

Also, If there are no lyrics in a certain part, sometimes using this same technique I would just say a cool line that fits the song that would go there....100 % inaudible and with my lips not moving or anything but enough that I can keep the melody going..important part

[gusty]

i have learned something about timing today. maybe not learned, but realised just how hard it is to play at 34bpm

[aydee]

Isn't that the truth, Gust..! : )

[gusty]

Isn't that the truth, Gust..! : )

Haha.
although i can't believe the last reply in this was nearly about 10 months ago. Time flies (no pun intended).

[PQleyR]

Record yourself at band practise! Then you'll hear if the tempo starts to rocket off in one direction or another. I used to find this a great help.

[kellycurrie]

Has anyone experimented with sleeping with the metronome on? I've always thought about it but never have.

...then agian batteries dont come cheap.

[gusty]

Has anyone experimented with sleeping with the metronome on? I've always thought about it but never have.

...then agian batteries dont come cheap.

I think drummerchic (or someone else off the forum) did. I remember a thread in the off topic lounge a while ago?

[aydee]

"Has anyone experimented with sleeping with the metronome on? I've always thought about it but never have.
..then again batteries dont come cheap ."

I slept with a metronome once... it was a wild & crazy night!

Exhausted, I finally collapsed at 210.........( bpm)

[djlouis]

I used to sleep with the metronome for some months,(that was common among drummer in my college years) no need to say that i had no girlfriend at the time. I was so freak about my timing that i don't know if it help cause I had a metronoeme running at all hour of day; during practice, during meal, during everything and then I started to get a life. My time's got a lot better but my bandmate paid the price because I was always talking about their time . I don't recommend it though practicing with a metronome is a must. I play mostly to a click track in the gig (lots of sequence and drum loop) I got now and I have no problem at all . The good thing about it is that I can count a tune at 70, 80, 90, 100,112,120,126 & 144 without the help of the metronome, I just know where those bpm are .

[Ailmour]

Hi everyone, I was going to ask how to practise my timing when playing without a metronome - but I guess you already told me the answer: counting. It's pretty easy for me to play with a metronome but when I play without it (this is how I play usually) I have noticed that my time isn't so good.

[spleen]

"Has anyone experimented with sleeping with the metronome on? I've always thought about it but never have.
..then again batteries dont come cheap ."

I slept with a metronome once... it was a wild & crazy night!

Exhausted, I finally collapsed at 210.........( bpm)

Nice one Aydee! :-)

Never been an objectophile myself, though I do confess that I'm completely in love with my MCAs!

spleen

[gusty]

Nice one Aydee! :-)

Never been an objectophile myself, though I do confess that I'm completely in love with my MCAs!

spleen

MCAs?
20202020202020

[spleen]

MCAs?
20202020202020

Hi gusty,

Sorry I didn't specify--Yamaha Maple Custom Absolutes (MCAs)...my beautiful membranophones!

spleen

[Alexdrum75]

How do you know say when you're playing when other people that you're keeping in time? I know that without a metronome i cant keep time, so how do i do it? And how long does it usually take to get good timing?


Record yourself!
That's the only "friend" that will tell you the thruth.

Second: practice makes perfect!!!

[Alexdrum75]

Has anyone experimented with sleeping with the metronome on? I've always thought about it but never have.

...then agian batteries dont come cheap.

OMG, that must have been a chinese torture!!! :-)

[Jimothy]

Practise to a click and counting are all very essential and needed to develop your time keeping and control. In band rehearsals and live it is good to play with a click but not always as you need confidence to play without it too.

I think the biggest factor is concentration. I'm doing a lot of work currently on clearing my mind of anything not to do with the song being played. You may start out good but mid song you check out a mate / babe in the audience, you laugh at the guitarist for being a dawk, you start thinking about work tomorrow, the tax return, how much you need a piss etc. This is often where time can be lost. Practise your focus, concentrate on the song and how you are playing it, relax and just become a part of the song.

If you have electric metronome that is programable, as mentioned before i believe, set gaps in it and play along. It's scary how much you can lose over 2 bars! 3 bars on 2 off is good fun and moves the gap around.

The last thing you want to do is get paranoid about it though! The more you think about it the more you go a little mad during songs and can end up sliding the tempo about as you are constantly worrying and adjusting.

Practise, be confident and work closely with your bass player! (Providing he/she is good)

[schist]

How do you know you have good timing?

When The Shaggs fire you from their band. =D

[OldSpice]

yeah, I've been going back to basics and practicing easy beats with a click track. I discovered that as I've moved to more advanced techniques I let this part of my playing suffer.

[cantstandyourfunk]

"I know that without a metronome i cant keep time"

put on that iPod, play to songs

[Green and Mean]

Very much great information here!
A great drummer said me some months ago, that the more you concentrate to time when playing a song, the more better you'll get. The point is simple: listen yourself all the time. Helped me alot!

[don strandberg]

After reading the entire thread. I have to ask. Is everything recorded with a click track? Are all the cd,s perfect in time?
In a live setting. Is there anything wrong with picking it up a bit say going in to the chorus. Or into a smoking solo. I believe sometimes an increase in dynamics goes hand in hand with a tad of extra speed. And I meen a tad. It can be effective.
I am new to the forum and I am glad I ran into this thread. Just recently I bought an e-kit. Yep it has a click and pre set tunes all at perfect time. Well I dont have the perfect time I thought I had. And it has been a great help in my short comings. I am sure I will be a better drummer now that I am aware.
Saying that. Doesnt great music have its ebb and flows. Kinda like a tension and release. Playing off of one another hearing what your mates are doing. And working as a band.
I think you can be locked in to a hell of a groove. But if you clicked it, the grooze could be lost.
Don//

[loki83jcg]

Simple advise that I was taught:

If you are wondering if your time is off in the first place, then you have taken the largest step towards great time.

Count the sub-divisions each beat:
1-e-and-ah-2-e-and-ah-3-e-and-ah-4...
1-trip-let-2-trip-let.... (or) 3-la-la-4-la-la....

Check out this book. Its called "It's About Time!!!"
Location:
http://www.amazon.com/Its-About-Time-Fred-Dinkins/dp/0757914101/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204607675&sr=1-5
I can attest to its effectiveness.

Fiddle with some ostinado with your high-hat foot. Have the limb keep time on 2 and 4.

Never use the same metronome tempo. My friend would write down each tempo he used each day and changed them daily.

Experience what a difference a shift of 1 bpm will make.

[schist]

"I know that without a metronome i cant keep time"

put on that iPod, play to songs

I don't think that this method is a universal solution to the oft-frustrating situation of "not being able to keep time well without a metronome". Sometimes I'll play along to a song at a certain tempo, then when I play along to a click at that tempo, sometimes I'll notice myself speeding up a little, and have to bring myself back down. Furthermore, a lot of players out there don't have perfect timing.

[jonescrusher]

I don't think that this method is a universal solution to the oft-frustrating situation of "not being able to keep time well without a metronome". Sometimes I'll play along to a song at a certain tempo, then when I play along to a click at that tempo, sometimes I'll notice myself speeding up a little, and have to bring myself back down. Furthermore, a lot of players out there don't have perfect timing.


It's important to choose carefully which songs you're playing along to. If you choose polished pop productions you can be reasonably sure that the drum track is metronomically accurate, so you can 'nail' the drum part like you would the metronome. I find early Michael Jackson albums goood for this. Stevie Wonder tracks are less useful unless you want to explore a specific time-feel.

The Ipod is a great tool, as it is far more appealing to work with than a click. Anything that encourages practice is good.

[MoeDrummer]

A lot of very good information here. I've been playing for about 8 years now and just recently have begun to dive into the world of the click track. Generally I've played along with songs when practicing, but the click has certainly opened up some new avenues for my playing. Thanks for all the info, guys... even if it wasn't intended for me. ;)

Moe

[ImDaDrumma]

Drive to store
Buy AC/DC Back in Black
Grab Sticks
Go hog wild!

Alternative Method:

Sit in chair
Download AC/DC Back in Black
Grab Sticks
Go hog wild!

:)

[oldrockdrummer]

when the crowd just can't stop dancing !!!!

[don strandberg]

Old rock. You hit it right on the head. It might not be perfect time. But they can feel it.

[S E Slick]

HELLO FELLOW MUSICIANS,

THANKS EVERYBODY FOR YOUR ADVISE AND KNOWLEDGE, IT SUPPORTS MY BELIEF AS WELL...BUT, I'M A GUITAR PLAYER IN A 3 PIECE, HEAVY, ROCK, ORIGINAL, PWR TRIO BAND, WE ALL ENJOY JAMMING AND GIGGING TOGETHER AND WRITING SONGS AS WELL. WE ARE ALL COMFORTABLE AND COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER. UNFORTUNATELY AS TIME HAS GONE BY OUR DRUMMER HAS GOTTEN TOO COMFORTABLE WITH PLAYING OUR SONGS "HIS WAY, HIS TIMING." THE SONGS HAVE DRIFTED AWAY FROM THEIR ORIGINAL TEMPO, FEEL
AND GROOVE. ME AND MY BASS PLAYER/SINGER BOTH HAVE THE SAME CONCERNS. HIS BEATS, HIS LICKS, ROLLS, KIT, CREATIVITY AND PERSONALITY ARE NOT AN ISSUE. OBLIVIOUS FLUCTUATION IS...FROM INTRO TO VERSE TO CHORUS TO BRIDGE TO LEAD TO VERSE TO CHORUS TO OUTRO.
HE'S A COOL DUDE AND WORTH CONSIDERATION. THE AVERAGE LISTENER MOST LIKELY WOULDN'T NOTICE ANY DISCREPANCY (SO WHAT!) ACCOMPLISHED MUSICIANS LIKE US WOULD, AND DO. THE SONGS ARE LOSING THE FIRE, THE IMPACT AND THEIR SOPHISTICATION (YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN) IT'S KILLING ME...MY DIPLOMATIC SKILLS LACK FINESSE AND COMPROMISE TOLERANCE.
THE MUSIC MUST BE PLAYED CORRECTLY...IN TIME, EVERY TIME, ALL THE TIME!
OR THE SONGS WILL LACK THEIR TRUE POTENTIAL AS WELL AS BEING A HINDRANCE ON THE CAPABILITIES OF THE MORE MATURED MUSICIAN.
HOW SHOULD I APPROACH OUR DRUMMER ABOUT THIS SITUATION AND GET HIM TO JOIN US WITH UNDERSTANDING TOWARDS OUR MUSICAL GOALS?
I HAVE SPILLED MY GUTS, AND I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO ANY AND ALL ADVICE MY FELLOW (PROFESSIONAL) MUSICIANS...THANKS!

........LIFE WOULD SUCK WITHOUT MUSIC...S. E. S L I C K..................

[kettles]

Run a metronome thru the PA at practice. That'll sort you guys out.

Do you record your practices/gigs?

Another thing that might help is the Beat Bug or Tempo Ref, a little device that tells you what tempo you're playing, however it's not suitable for all styles of drumming.

[StephensDrumShed]

When the band stops throwing things at you, lol!

Seriously though...you need to record yourself and your band. Then get the metronome out and try to sync it up to the recording. See how consistent the live timing is. Warning: It's not gonna be NEAR as good as you think it is!

[reso-shell]

i think practising without a metronome can be a benefitial as practising with one.
by speeding up and slowing down purposely i feel like i can recognise a steady tempo better. make any sense?

having a friend choose a tempo on the metronome and have you guess it's bpm is good.

recording youself helps so so much.

work with the motion of your body. if you lift your hand at the same height everytime you strike the drum, you are more likely to keep a solid tempo. if you widen the gap and lift your hand higher you will probably play slower.

i often play to a click at 50 bpm and bearly lift my sticks off the drums at all. then i will play to the same click but lift my hands as high as they can go.

just try and feel it out. when playing a song, just remember the word "metronome" in the back of your mind. make sure your not just thinking "hot chicks in the front row". that might make you show off and change tempo.