John Riley's Beyond Bop Three Voice Comping

[tim1987]

Hi all,

I'm new here and just wanted to know if anybody has had any experience with the above book.

I've got most of the three voice exercises going, but what I'm really struggling is the last few exercises on Page 11 and 17- in eighth notes and triplets. They involve splashing the hi hat and then using your stick to play a closed hi hat note.

Does anybody know how to approach these phrases and have any advice to give? I don't know what they are supposed to sound like. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Many Thanks

[SickRick]

Very simple: The HiHats you play with your left hand are open HiHats if they follow a Left Foot splash HiHat. You let the open HiHat ring until the next HiHat with the foot is played.

Hope that helped.

E.G.: In the second to the last exercise on page 17 the first two left hand hihats are closed because they follow a regular left foot HiHat. The HiHat on beat 4 is open because it follows a left foot splash HiHat.

Keep it up man - great exercises!

[theduke86]

One more thing to add: you should do these exercises very very slowly at first, particularly those tough last ones! If I were you, I'd repeat them over and over and over instead of running through them.

[tim1987]

I get it, I think. So, when I have foot splashed, the next sticked Hi Hat left hand note will be open?? And when I play a closed Hi Hat note with my foot, the next sticked left hand will be closed?? It all depends on the foot.

Thanks for the help here. The problem I think would be to put these into musical situations which is i suppose the next step by using the play along that is provided with the book to practise the three voice comping.

[SickRick]

I get it, I think. So, when I have foot splashed, the next sticked Hi Hat left hand note will be open?? And when I play a closed Hi Hat note with my foot, the next sticked left hand will be closed?? It all depends on the foot.

Thanks for the help here. The problem I think would be to put these into musical situations which is i suppose the next step by using the play along that is provided with the book to practise the three voice comping.

Both points are exactly right. I found it really hard to use all of this stuff in musical situations at first. But then - after working on it for quite some time - it just builds up your vocabulary and your coordination extremely and you are "free" to do and play whatever comes to your mind.


What the Duke said applies to any exercise in existance: Repetition and taking it really slow are the two key points in practising. Plus I'd like to add focusness as the third one.

[jazzin']

Great replies so far. One thing that helped me, although this might be hard to understand over internet and also it might sound king of obvious but is actually quite hard to 'get', is making sure you are looking for the flow of the phrase or melodic/rhythmic pattern because once you can hear that pattern/idea it will be much, much easier to play. You'll really notice when you get it as well. It'll go from a technically difficult pattern which is hard to memorize to a beautiful singing, musical phrase that you can't get out of your head. They are great comping exercises.

Like Duke and Rick said though...repeat them over and over slowly trying to hear how it fits together. Have fun!

[tim1987]

Thanks for all these informative answers!! Bit of an essay I know but-

My next questions include:
Where can I hear these types of foot splash phrases in a recorded musical situation. Does anyone know of any albums?? Are we talking of players like Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, Jack Dejohnette etc.

Another question is, when I feel comfortable playing the three voice examples with the standard ride pattern, will I then have to break up my ride patterns so that I am playing broken time? I think for me that this would be a long term goal.

I am studying this book along with Gary Chaffee's time functioning book which goes through Jazz independence from playing Melodic/Linear Patterns, through to Two Voice Harmonic and Three Voice Harmonic Independence.

He also writes about the four standard methods of playing time in Jazz, from Straight, to Semi-Straight, to (I think) Semi-Broken and finally Broken Time which outlines the history and progression of jazz time functioning. He says that not one type of time playing is better than the other.

But if I were to play in Broken Time, wouldn't the other musicians think that I'm a bit self-indulgent as most people want to hear an ostinato in the ride or on the hi hat so that they can hear something that they can hook on to???

These books are amazing, along with "Art of Bop Drumming", it's taken me nearly a year to go through all of the comping exercises alone and I still have so much to learn, got to learn uptempos, but my right hand technique is atrocious as I struggle to know whether I am playing with my fingers correctly!! Then I have to learn how to solo!

[Wavelength]

But if I were to play in Broken Time, wouldn't the other musicians think that I'm a bit self-indulgent as most people want to hear an ostinato in the ride or on the hi hat so that they can hear something that they can hook on to?

So long as you do it with good taste and in the right place, your band mates should have no problems with it. In a jazz setting the drum kit isn't just a glorified metronome, but rather another melody instrument. I'd go so far as to say that playing repetitive spang-a-lang and 2&4 hi-hat in a modern jazz band will sound dull and out of place. Playing interesting rhythms and broken time is not only expected, but will inspire the other players to explore the unexplored.

[theduke86]

Well, it really depends on the musical situation in question. In particular, what the rhythm section and the soloist are doing is determinant on what you should be doing. For example, if the bass player is playing a walking line and the soloist is playing lines, you should be playing some solid straight up time. If the vibe is more floaty and spacey, you can break it up more and more. The only way to know when is to play with different people as often as possible and determine what works. Having great knowledge of records is essiential as well- if you know where a player is coming from because you've heard something like it before, it'll be easier to react to.
A very important thing to remember when you play these exercises is to completely forget them when you're playing with actual people!
As for the examples, Elvin, Tony and Jack play a lot of these things. A great track to check out (probably where John was inspired to write these examples) is Nefertiti by Miles Davis on the album of the same name. On any of those old second quintet recordings actually, you can hear those ideas and more like them in action. However, the important thing to listen for is not those ideas themselves, but why Tony/Jack/Elvin play them and how they relate to shaping the phrases, hooking up with the rhythm section, or complimenting the soloist. The why is the most important thing!

[SickRick]

Great replies so far.

Very simple: Great question = Great answers.

I can answer all your questions about broken time and all of that with one word: LISTEN.

Listen to the other players and reply with tastefull playing. It sounds simple but it takes a lot of experience and confidence. Also listen to many recordings - early ones and more recent ones - there is a lot of great playing out there, just check the Jazz Thread for recommendations.

As far as I can tell from your posts I have to say that I think your on the right track. Keep it up and eventually things will fall into the right places.

Good luck!

[jazzin']

Check out Elvin with John Coltrane (Ballads, A Love Supreme, Crescent etc) and Wayne Shorter (Speak No Evil, Juju, Night Dreamer etc). Inception by McCoy Tyner is brilliant, one of my favourites.
As Duke mentioned any of the second Davis Quintet stuff with Williams.

I wouldn't bother yet with the time variations, although that is completely up to you.
Maybe wait until this stuff is just second nature then go back to Art of Bop and start from the beginning with some ride variations.

Check out Paul Motian for some really cool broken time type playing...any with Bill Evans through to all the stuff hes still doing. Fantastic!