Moeller vs. Push-pull

[Drum101]

Here's the deal. I've essentially mastered the Freehand technique, and am quickly mastering the applications of the Moeller technique. The question I have is whether or not I should pick up on the Push-pull technique, as well. I've found that my speed with the Moeller rivals the Freehand rechnique (in some situations, even surpasses it), but a one-hand roll at that speed doesn't sound as consistent in sound as I'd like it to be. I've been looking into alternative solutions, such as the Fanning technique, but I've found that such techniques lack the kind of control I'm looking for. Which brings me to Push-pull.

Is there someone who's experienced enough with both techniques to know whether or not Push-pull is worth the time and effort? And if so, should I work on improving the technique to rival the Freehand, or should I just stick with making my moeller technique sound cleaner at faster speeds?

[Tama Player]

You should learn all techniques and spend a certain amount on time on every technique. There isn't a best technique or the fastest (even though you didn't say that, just making sure thats out in he open). You should learn the push-pull and the moeller and every technique you can possibly learn. Use them in unsion maybe, make a mixture of techniques to make one universal one (in a way). Try that and see if it works. Thats what I did, and it works miracles for me. I can even apply some of them to feet and pedal work.

Peace
AGR

[The popes love child]

Look at Joe Morello, he's mastered both to the point where he basically uses them both simultaneously.

[mosher]

That's a Jo Jo Mayer technique that's really great

[skaman]

Both techniques require a lot of coordination between both hands if you want to play single stroke rolls. I think when you master one, you wont have problems to coordinate the other. And push pull is even little easier than moeller, so when you will master moeller, you wont have problems with push pull, i guess. that is only my theoretical opinion.

I have problems to coordinate both tchs., but i really didnt practice them a lot, couse I have a lot of work with common wrist technique. I can use both tchs. with single hand or simultaneously with both hands, but playing single stroke rolls.... uf is another story. Does anybody know any shortcut, to coordination between hands in those techniques?

[Tama Player]

Both techniques require a lot of coordination between both hands if you want to play single stroke rolls. I think when you master one, you wont have problems to coordinate the other. And push pull is even little easier than moeller, so when you will master moeller, you wont have problems with push pull, i guess. that is only my theoretical opinion.

I have problems to coordinate both tchs., but i really didnt practice them a lot, couse I have a lot of work with common wrist technique. I can use both tchs. with single hand or simultaneously with both hands, but playing single stroke rolls.... uf is another story. Does anybody know any shortcut, to coordination between hands in those techniques?

Well theres really no shortcut to any technique of any kind. You must learn each one individualy and use each one for there proper purposes. There isn't a way to get super fast really quick. You can learn these technqies and use them to make you faster but nothing will simultaneously make you faster or coordinated. People get caught up with speed and see how fast they can push themselves. I mean don't get me wrong, I use speed alot, Im in a speed metal band. But you really have to understand that you can't learn speed rapidly. I know your talking about coordination between your hands but no, to answer your question there isn't.

Peace
AGR

[h3r3tic]

I find that both techniques are usefull. In my opinion you shoud learn bot. And I also agree that you should master the moeller first with BOTH HANDS :)

[Raymond Bloom]

It's pretty hard to incorporate the push pull technique into actual playing, sometimes I use it for my right hand to accent my left hand with some 16th note patterns but that's it

Moeller technique is essential, it's one of the basic techniques there is - Gladstone and Moeller, those are the basic techniques everyone should know, things like push-pull, rimrolls etc are more like gimmicks, really few people can use them musically. Johnny Rabb of course is an excellent example if talking about rimroll, and Jojo Mayer - push-pull. Those who allways answer with:''but he sayed that he uses it just to get attention in music stores''
1) that was almost 10 years ago, he wasn't playing electronic music back then, nowadays, with Nerve he uses push-pull pretty often, with his right hand mostly, playing interesting ride patterns
2) it was a joke :-)


as for gaining speed, it's not the goal, the goal is to gain maximum controll over the speed you are capable of, you will become faster as time goes, don't rush, speed isn't something you can achieve over night! Practice!

I spent 2 years working on Moeller and Gladstone, getting the basics down, figuring out my own interpretations and hybrids. Then I spent a year practicing just the single stroke roll and by that time I also switched to trad grip as my main grip. Now I have controll over 900 singles in a minute, if I go faster I loose controll and actually I don't try to push myself more, because I don't need that much speed

Good luck,
Ray

[Drum101]

I can use both tchs. with single hand or simultaneously with both hands, but playing single stroke rolls.... uf is another story.

I'm feeling you there, in regards to the Moeller technique. With push-pull, it's really just a matter of starting REALLY slowly by having the hands follow each other. Push, push, pull, pull. From there, it's just a matter of time and effort. But I find that doesn't work as well for a technique that works around rebound.

I wouldn't say that I'm looking for some magical shortcut, but it would be wise if there were some EXCERCISES that could help develop that kind of coordination. Granted, my singles are fast enough as they are (1000bpm+), but it'd be a nice thing to have in your back pocket.

And I also agree that you should master the moeller first with BOTH HANDS :)

Don't worry, no hand's getting left behind. :)

as for gaining speed, it's not the goal, the goal is to gain maximum controll over the speed you are capable of, you will become faster as time goes, don't rush, speed isn't something you can achieve over night! Practice!

I know that, that's why I'm looking into Push-pull in the first place, so that I see if there's an alternative to playing at that same speed cleaner.

By the way, my major influences include Johnny Rabb and Jojo Mayer, so "gimmicks" are kind of my thing. :)

[Raymond Bloom]

push-pull won't make your rolls cleaner, because it consists of two different motions - wrist stroke and finger stroke, they both sound different and it's almost impossible to get them at identical dynamics. push-pull is cool to mess around with one hand, but with both hands I can't see the benefit of it - getting fast singles with uneven dynamics?!

cheers,
Ray

[skaman]

I dont want to start new thread, so I will ask you folks here. Im little confused abouth moeller tech, couse I watched derick pope's video and I also watched jim chapins's video. derrick isnt controlling second and third stroke, but using full rebound and using fulcrum pressure to cotrol speed, but jim is playing triplet with first whip stroke, second tap and third up, not really rebounding second and third stroke. and jim isnt mentioning any fulcrum pressure or rebound?????

Raymond Bloom! I think you could try to accent second (pull) stroke, as thomas lang does to second stroke in his double stroke rolls. result is more even balance between first and second stroke, and in really speedy rolls the difference (if there is any) doesnt bother any more. truth is, that on quality drum there is obvius diference in color of sound between push and pull stroke, but then again in high speeds, what this technique is ment for, that shouldn't be a problem.

[Raymond Bloom]

I dont want to start new thread, so I will ask you folks here. Im little confused abouth moeller tech, couse I watched derick pope's video and I also watched jim chapins's video. derrick isnt controlling second and third stroke, but using full rebound and using fulcrum pressure to cotrol speed, but jim is playing triplet with first whip stroke, second tap and third up, not really rebounding second and third stroke. and jim isnt mentioning any fulcrum pressure or rebound?????
Derrick shows Moeller technique combined with Gladstone, Jim shows it without

Raymond Bloom! I think you could try to accent second (pull) stroke, as thomas lang does to second stroke in his double stroke rolls. result is more even balance between first and second stroke, and in really speedy rolls the difference (if there is any) doesnt bother any more. truth is, that on quality drum there is obvius diference in color of sound between push and pull stroke, but then again in high speeds, what this technique is ment for, that should be a problem.
Thomas Lang's concept of doubles is different than the push-pull, also if doing doubles it's actually cool to accent the second stroke. Single stroke is all about eveness and solid dynamics, so push-pull is just too much effort, it's much easyer with just fingercontrol

[skaman]

Well, I must agree. Finger control, I think, gives you really enough speed for any style and it is really even.

Thanks for explenation.

[RickJames]

Doing doubles with moeller technique uses 1 wrist and 1 finger stroke. Push pull is this motion except without the whip.

[skinny]

Check the Montreal Jazz festival Buddy Rich video
In Westside story solo Buddy does this push pull technique on the sock with his left hand

[mosher]

I want to get as much as I can on Jo Jo's great push and pull technique
This works best for me

[druid]

So for other examples of Push-pull technique would you consider:

Bozzio a Push pull player....Chad Wackerman a push pull player....and Vinnie a Moeller style player? That is pretty much how I would interpret their techniques....I see Wackerman and Bozzio using alot of finger control whereas Vinnie uses the whipping motion

[jazzin']

Everyone seems to be able to do more than a 1000 strokes a minute. Man, the whole world is really really fast. Baffling.

[TehMook]

I've tried both the Moeller and push-pull, granted, I havent practiced them for a very long time. Also, the push-pull is a bit better with my right hand.

I can do push-pull at a pretty average speed (which is perfectly enough for me with one hand), but my problem is with this technique, that I cant get much power out of it. The strokes stay pretty quiet and weak.

Should I just keep practicing or is this the weakness of push-pull compared to Moeller?

[jonescrusher]

Everyone seems to be able to do more than a 1000 strokes a minute. Man, the whole world is really really fast. Baffling.


What, and you can't? Dude, you're getting left behind, most guys are at that speed a week or so after starting to learn Moeller. I was touching 1250 coming up to my ninth birthday.

On a serious note, I sometimes get the feeling that younger players attach a notion to the Moeller system that it is primarily a device to achieve high speeds; as Raymond said earlier - it's a fundamental system of technique that should get your hands moving muscially and effortlessly- it can be applied to any posssible sticking pattern and covers any dynamic range. It's a must for achieving good touch on the set, and has to be practiced to the point of it being automatic.

[Scatman]

push and pull style is based on Johnny Rabb's free hand method
Jo Jo isn't using the rim but I think it's the same thing

[druid]

I work on the Moeller method and also combine finger control when working ou tof a bokk like Stick Control...I have found by combining various ideas I can improve my own control speed and dynamics. I really have been getting back to dynamic control lately playing with a classical style and approach I used in college. Now that will get your hands in good shape. Lots of multiple stroke rolls.

I have also been really watching my hands on the pad and trying to get a good flow going that is natural but thought out at the same time.

[jazzin']

What, and you can't? Dude, you're getting left behind, most guys are at that speed a week or so after starting to learn Moeller. I was touching 1250 coming up to my ninth birthday.

On a serious note, I sometimes get the feeling that younger players attach a notion to the Moeller system that it is primarily a device to achieve high speeds; as Raymond said earlier - it's a fundamental system of technique that should get your hands moving muscially and effortlessly- it can be applied to any posssible sticking pattern and covers any dynamic range. It's a must for achieving good touch on the set, and has to be practiced to the point of it being automatic.

Hehehe yeah I better get my ass in gear. I wanna be pushing 1200 within the week....errr....?
On the moeller, I was taught it not so much as a way for speed like you guys have said, but as a natural or fluid method of playing a series of dynamic strokes or accents and ghost notes with minimal effort (ie. getting more than one stroke with only one stroke motion) and I guess, ease.