music theory: a necessity for drummers

[lovemysonors]

i'm playing with a band and 2 know theory, 3 don't, including myself. of course the 2 who do can communicate together, but we all seem to put songs together fine.

just wondering how many drummers out there know theory and apply it. i know some drummers who know it but don't apply it, stating that it's more natural instinct over theory that works for drummers...

and i'm curious if a drummer studied theory, if that would noticibly improve one's part in the band as a drummer and not guitarist...i suppose as far as arranging songs it would, but how else?

any thoughts, comments?

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

As you've already noticed, knowing theory will help you communicate your musical ideas. It's not a necessity, but an extra tool to use.

[TonKpilS_657]

my friend was in a band known as strange last days.

he played guitar. He and the drummer were both music majors and knew theory well.

the other guitar player and bass player didnt know theory.

the other guitar player quit because he said that "theory limits your creativity because you're trying to do everything perfect and textbook like."

doesnt make sense to me but they made some damn good music.

theory is a must.

[fat in the middle]

Music theory can only help the bridges between other players, but isn't nessesary. the more you know about reading/ discussing harmony and grooves, the more you can save time in rehearsal situations. Your ears can also help in knowing the difference of chord structures, give you direction and points of referance. If you are in a punk band slamming it out, you may not think harmony training would help, but it can. But if you were in a punk band you can still slam it out without training. For me , the bottom line is music, and the more knowledge the better,, but it ain't gonna make you feel, it can make you a better communicator, and it may spawn ideas that might not have come otherwise. The best players are the ones that know a huge amount of theory, but throw it away on the gig.

[classic*beat]

As you've already noticed, knowing theory will help you communicate your musical ideas. It's not a necessity, but an extra tool to use.

I agree to that.
Knowing where strong / weak chords in a song can help you know where to build up the intensity of the music or where to play parts that are resolving. However, it can be all naturally heard and felt while playing with other people. As a drummer you don;t need to be thinking, "How am i going to move by minor thirds on a diminished scale chord". So you are really free from any kind of thought like that. You just got to know the form of the song and have a good time feel. It is when you want to take charge of your own group and start writing your own compositions that you are going to need to truly know your theory. Also, it really sucks when working with a quartet and the three other musicians have a strong foundation in theory and the drummer does not. I've been in that boat, and I felt like I wasn't communicating enough. So depending on what you want to accomplish as a drummer; if you are serious don't neglect spending time sitting at another musical instrument studying theory. Needless to say that most music programs are too prominent on harmonic theory and don't spend enough time with working on rhythmic ideas. It can work both ways. I can think of many players that are like that.

[khanedeliac]

my friend was in a band known as strange last days.

he played guitar. He and the drummer were both music majors and knew theory well.

the other guitar player and bass player didnt know theory.

the other guitar player quit because he said that "theory limits your creativity because you're trying to do everything perfect and textbook like."

doesnt make sense to me but they made some damn good music.

theory is a must.

He was partially right though, trying to do everything the traditional way of theory can limit your options to just play sometimes and go with what you feel. I don't know a great deal of theory but I love the way I play drums (not an attempt to sound big headed by the way) becuase I think the way I play is emotive. If someone who was strictly theoretical was watching me or listenting to me, he might say "that wasn't executed the way it should be, or hmm...you have an unorthodox aproach to facet X"

Technique and theory can get in the way, because it keeps people in certain boundaries if they feel like " I cant do that becuase its not "correct" ". I freak out and I liiiiiiike it....

[classic*beat]

Not having any knowledge with music theory or rhythmic understanding can keep you in certain boundaries. You don't want to be the musician that looks like they are solving math problems while playing. However, the musical knowledge that you do gain and the things and ideas that you've transcribed for yourself will in the long run make you more aware as a musician. It all doesn't come to you naturally. You got to work at it.
I lived in New York for a few months and worked as a cook at a vegetarian restaurant. I was the only one that could speak English. The rest spoke Spanish which I really don't know to much of. It was always awkward because I could tell that they would crack jokes about me. Anyway, my point is that you can live in America and not speak English and still be able to get by. Or you can be an English speaking American working in a Spanish speaking kitchen and still get by. Both have certain boundaries. If you are not working towards understanding the language you will never be able to transverse that boundary. So diversify yourself.

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

You're only limited by your own imagination. Theory will help you understand what you are writing and playing. It won't tell you what to write.

[samthebeat]

I think if your playing jazz you need to understand changes and structure which is something that is hard to pick up from listening to jazz i think. But playing rock and pop most people know song structures just from listening to that music, its fairly simple mostly.

As far as knowing about chords and stuff being a guitar player before a drummer helped me write better drum parts i think, in that i understood the bigger picture, where the spaces are and where i can fit into those spaces.

Its just listening really though, most of what write for the band im is dictatded to by others, occasionally a rythym i play might inpire a different direction but gennerlly im listening and fitting in.

As far as commication tool it helps in that a guitarist might say "it changes to the chorus on the C" or whatever and i understand what im hearing while im sitting on my drum stool twidling my thumbs.

[Miggle]

He was partially right though, trying to do everything the traditional way of theory can limit your options to just play sometimes and go with what you feel. I don't know a great deal of theory but I love the way I play drums (not an attempt to sound big headed by the way) becuase I think the way I play is emotive. If someone who was strictly theoretical was watching me or listenting to me, he might say "that wasn't executed the way it should be, or hmm...you have an unorthodox aproach to facet X"

Technique and theory can get in the way, because it keeps people in certain boundaries if they feel like " I cant do that becuase its not "correct" ". I freak out and I liiiiiiike it....


I disagree. I hear a lot of people saying these, and these are people who don't know much about music theory and didn't havIe formal lessons. And it really shows in their playing. The guys I know who understands music more just play better (not necessary them having formal lessons, some study by themselves).

As some guys has already stated, its not something thats supposed to limit you but something to help you understand how music works.

[khanedeliac]

As some guys has already stated, its not something thats supposed to limit you but something to help you understand how music works.

Yes, its not SUPPOSED to limit you, but people let themselves get limited by these things. It is the human condition of not wanting to do something incorrectly that is the problem, I am not going to sit here and be as stupid as to say technique and proper knowledge is a bad thing. Consider Wynton Marsalis's view of this :

"Classical musicians are artisans, while jazz musicians are artists"

[sloppyn9ne]

dude yeah i highly recommend learing it. and better yet learn a pitched intrument as well, like key board or something.

after i learned about it i can express so many ideas that make my band sound better.

[=J=]

Its true, knowing theory does save time and help convey ideas (iv forgotten all i used to know!) but its not a must.

In our band we have 2 songwriters who'll do the lyrics and what I, in my infinite theory knowledge, will call 'the tune'. They then play it and i consider it my job to play something fitting and see if they agree.

The most musical communication i ever get is 'do like...32nds...sort of...two on the hi hat....then like booom, chugga-dum over the top...see?' But we hardly ever need to resort to that!

[fat in the middle]

Again,,,, my theory teacher in school told me to drop any theory knowledge once you start the gig. Theory isn't for creating, its to work on things before you play. It may however take years to get that point, or it may happen instantly/

[vicfirthtenorline]

theory isnt going to just happen overnight. knowing the material, like scales and modes, is one thing. knowing how to impliment it properly is another entirely, and that takes time. i really do think its necessary, especially in todays musical/professional environment.

[remnantdrummer]

I know theory, it helps in some areas... but in other areas you can't even use the smallest drop of it because then you will be focusing on that rather than using your imagination...

[sloppyn9ne]

i use theory to create a type of emotion that is present when we play our music.

[jazzin']

You're only limited by your own imagination. Theory will help you understand what you are writing and playing. It won't tell you what to write.

Actually it can help you a great deal with knowing what and how to write. Nor will it stifle any creative imaginings...that myth is ridiculous. If you have a creative mind and a large theoretical base of knowledge underneath that, all you have is a whole lot more options when it comes to playing and writing and thinking music. Theory will not kill creativity. Thats like the whole metronomes will make you sound like a robot. It only adds to your playing.
What you learn in theory can also open up wonders that you probably never thought would be there.
But, like fat in the middle said, the best players are those who have a great knowledge of theory then throw it away when playing.

[KCMcC]

On some level, in order to play music well, you have to "get" theory, even if you don't really "know" it in a formal sense. The thing is, if you are someone who has the ability to "get it" to feel tension and resolution, to hear how notes move within a chord progression etc, that is all the more reason TO study theory so you can really make the most of that talent. If by learning theory you suddenly magically become stiff and uncreative, then you probably weren't as creative as you thought in the first place.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I can't believe some of the posts that I'm reading here.

No one who actually knows any music theory would ever say that it forces you to play "too perfect' or that it gets in the way of imagination and creativity.

Creatvity is within you. It is not "damaged" by learning theory. Unless you feel that Mozart would have been even more creative had he not known what the hell he was doing.

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

Actually it can help you a great deal with knowing what and how to write. Nor will it stifle any creative imaginings...that myth is ridiculous. If you have a creative mind and a large theoretical base of knowledge underneath that, all you have is a whole lot more options when it comes to playing and writing and thinking music.

That's exactly what I'm saying... I studied music theory in high school and in college. I've been away from its studies for a few years and really want to find the right book to help me continue my study on my own.

Theory won't limit you- only your imagination you limit you. Theory won't tell you exactly what to write (otherwise all of us who know theory would be writing the exact same song). It teaches you relationships between melody, harmony, rhythms, structure, and textures (to pretty much quote the definition of music theory). Understanding these relationships will certainly help you write. With that knowledge, you will know how a third feels compared to a fifth, or a sixth, or a diminished seventh- for example. It will teach you how to bring a chord back to the root in the natural way our ears want to hear it, but there is nothing saying you 'have' to follow that path. Knowing what it means to resolve the root, and how to taunt the ears and build suspense... that's all great to know! Obviously, as you probably know, there is much more to theory than even that. It's up to the composer (or band) to decide how to use these relationships to create their own style. For example, much of the music I wrote in high school involved great use of minor seconds. Made some people want to go on a killing spree. hahah! I loved the harsh spookiness it imposed- lol.

Think of music theory as a pencil. It's just like learning how to draw. First, you will learn how to draw basic shapes. Then as you practice, you learn how these basic shapes create more complex figures that we see in our every day lives. If you gave a pencil to five different artists, do you think they are going to draw the same picture?

It's also just like studying rudiments for drums- which most of you already do. Those rudiments are the building blocks for the larger picture. Music theory is the same. The idea that it kills your creativity is the invisible blockade that keeps so many from even trying to learn it.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Only someone who doesn't know theory at all (or not enough) will say that it's not necessary.
Music theory is much more than pitches, harmony, chords... you know, guitar or piano stuff. Music theory is also RHYTHM, BEAT, TIME SIGNATURES, SHIFTINGS, ACCENTS, SFORZANDI, CRESCENDI, INSTRUMENTATION, POLIRHYTHMS!!!!... all those cool words and things that make music cool, but many people don't even know what they mean.
Music theory is also music antropology: middle eastern music, cuban music, brazilian music, african music, spanish music, japanese music...
Music theory is telling the guitar player: "Please, don't you hear the bass playing a D??? Why the hell are you playing A major??? It should be minor!!!! D9 should have MINOR 7th, major 7th doesn't sound funky!!!!" I promise you it's the best thing to tell to a guitar player: that you know more theory than him. LOL
Music theory is knowing that a rhythm changes is nothing new. It's knowing that dominant progressions have been done for too many centuries. It's knowing that 3rd modulations are at least 200 years old. That means that "modern" harmony needs to be refreshed and renewed; it's old fashioned!

I've studied 3 years of modern music theory and 9 of classical music theory; and I use what I learnt every time I play! THEORY IS GOOD.

[Gibbersticks]

I have been thinking quite a bit about taking some music theory classes, mostly out of just wanting to know as much as possible. I can't see how it could possibly get in the way of anything. It can only help. How could it not? In my thinking saying that it gets in the way is just another way of saying "I'm lazy and I don't care".

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

Wile, I couldn't agree with you more. Theory isn't just about the 12 tone scale even. It's a study of all music, and everything about music! I really miss my days as a music major. :)

[classic*beat]

That means that "modern" harmony needs to be refreshed and renewed; it's old fashioned!

You're opening a whole new can of worms with that quote. The way that I see it is that if you were to "refashion" modern harmony you would have to forget everything that you already know about harmony. Even if that happened, that too would become old fashioned. That is just the way things work. I guess things evolve overtime, but the fundamental steps to get there never disappear. If those steps disappeared it would be all good because all would be reconstructed again somehow.

I know that I can still take the same 6/8 Afro-Cuban bell pattern that all of you probably know and make something hip out of it. Or work with secondary dominants and still play something that is unfamiliar to most ears. I can't remember the exact quote, but Miles Davis said something like, "no one will ever play something on the trumpet that Louis Armstrong has never played ". Given that the ways Miles played the Trumpet changed so many times.

[jAZZpLANTS]

Music theory is wonderful, but you cannot teach musical "feel' as both a performer and song writer. This only comes with experience applying theory to your own compositions. Every practice I have with my band, I make an effort to think musically, i.e. time signatures, syncopation, accents, etc. and it is enormously beneficial even in a thrash metal/punk setting in my case. In fact, I plan to take some music theory courses before i graduate from NC State.

As for "modern" harmony being old fashioned, you have to consider that the human brain has been conditioned for thousands of years to find certain sounds appealing (the major harmonic scales?? is that what you call it?) and trying to modify human nature is tedious, arduous, and often frustrating.

[Wile E. Coyote]

You're opening a whole new can of worms with that quote. The way that I see it is that if you were to "refashion" modern harmony you would have to forget everything that you already know about harmony. Even if that happened, that too would become old fashioned. That is just the way things work. I guess things evolve overtime, but the fundamental steps to get there never disappear. If those steps disappeared it would be all good because all would be reconstructed again somehow.

I know that I can still take the same 6/8 Afro-Cuban bell pattern that all of you probably know and make something hip out of it. Or work with secondary dominants and still play something that is unfamiliar to most ears. I can't remember the exact quote, but Miles Davis said something like, "no one will ever play something on the trumpet that Louis Armstrong has never played ". Given that the ways Miles played the Trumpet changed so many times.

Don't get me wrong!! I'm not saying modern harmony is something worthless and stupid! Not at all... What I'm saying is that, for example, try to write a neapolitan 6th chord in the modern system, or a modal 4ths chord... you won't be able to play it! Man, modal chords, polychords, Nap 6th, lowered VI chord (is it the english name for it??) and so on... started to be used in the 17th and 18th centuries, and you cannot even write that in an understandable way using modern harmony terms!
Modern harmony is a world of chord progressions, dominants (and substitutes) and modulations; and that's very very very far from being something new. Tonality doesn't exist anymore.
Even Debussy's harmony is far more interesting and complex that any jazz piece you can think about; not to mention Stravinky's or Berio's, or Boulez's...

All that makes me think that it showld be refreshed!

[jazzin']

That's exactly what I'm saying... I studied music theory in high school and in college. I've been away from its studies for a few years and really want to find the right book to help me continue my study on my own.


Hey man, I agree with you 100%. On the book thing though, probably one of the best books or book to get would be Mark Levine's 'The Jazz Piano Book' or his other one, 'The Jazz Theory Book'. Both are brilliant and absolutely not just for jazz. They cover all basic theory (and more) and are written in a very agreeable and easy to pick up manner.

I guarantee you will use these again and again and get really good use out of them.

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

On the book thing though, probably one of the best books or book to get would be Mark Levine's 'The Jazz Piano Book' or his other one, 'The Jazz Theory Book'. Both are brilliant and absolutely not just for jazz. They cover all basic theory (and more) and are written in a very agreeable and easy to pick up manner.

Thanks for that! Seems like Barnes and Noble doesn't have them new. That's my favorite book shop, but maybe I can find them new somewhere else. Do both books cover overlapping material? If I had to choose one, which would you recommend?

One of my favorite books on the related subject is 'Orchestration'. It talks a lot about the ranges of different instruments and how to write for them correctly on the staff, etc. It's been on my wish list for a while.

[JCM]

I have just started learning to play the guitar and have realised the importance of music theory in that area. However, I also feel that you can apply it to drums because anything that makes you a better player is a good thing right?

[jazzin']

Thanks for that! Seems like Barnes and Noble doesn't have them new. That's my favorite book shop, but maybe I can find them new somewhere else. Do both books cover overlapping material? If I had to choose one, which would you recommend?

One of my favorite books on the related subject is 'Orchestration'. It talks a lot about the ranges of different instruments and how to write for them correctly on the staff, etc. It's been on my wish list for a while.

Ooh, difficult to choose between them. I would probably go for the piano book. It's got lots of applicable material that you can really dig into. Check them both out though, see what you think. Depending on where you are, you might like to go into more straight up theory with some piano basics or you might prefer theory with a focus on practical piano. Check 'em out.

[jazzin']

I have just started learning to play the guitar and have realised the importance of music theory in that area. However, I also feel that you can apply it to drums because anything that makes you a better player is a good thing right?

Well, I like to look at it this way. If you can read and play your chords, scales blah blah on piano you have an infinite number of charts and songs etc at your disposal. You can go into a music store and pick up any sheet music that would look like an utter confusion to someone who can't read and you can take that home, play out the basic chord changes and you have that song in your head to be able to transfer over to the drums. When you do transfer over and maybe play it with someone, you'll know where to change it up, kick back, go nuts and you'll be able to listen so much more effectively and hear the subtle changes and ride with them to create that music that gives you goosebumps.

[JCM]

Well, I like to look at it this way. If you can read and play your chords, scales blah blah on piano you have an infinite number of charts and songs etc at your disposal. You can go into a music store and pick up any sheet music that would look like an utter confusion to someone who can't read and you can take that home, play out the basic chord changes and you have that song in your head to be able to transfer over to the drums. When you do transfer over and maybe play it with someone, you'll know where to change it up, kick back, go nuts and you'll be able to listen so much more effectively and hear the subtle changes and ride with them to create that music that gives you goosebumps.

Exactly. No use being an excellent drummer when you have no idea how to make music as opposed to playing it. Not saying that if you do not understand theory you cannot play it but it gives you that extra edge!

[Wile E. Coyote]

One of my favorite books on the related subject is 'Orchestration'. It talks a lot about the ranges of different instruments and how to write for them correctly on the staff, etc. It's been on my wish list for a while.

Walter Piston has a good Orchestration book. His harmony book is also very good; but if you are more advanced, go for Schoenberg's!!
If you really want to learn about orchestration, get all Stravinsky's works, he could really take every instrument to its limits. Also Ravel was a fantastic orchestrator.

[JWM]

Drummers are natural arrangers, and are often arrangers on major tours for big acts.

Having a good grasp of theory (especially ear training) will only help your band to have more focused and creative material. The people writing the music will usually be so "inside" of the music that they'll fall prey to doing the same ideas over and over again. As a drummer, you are the voice of reason and objectivity... let theory be your guide.

Before he passed away, Ron Spagnardi from Modern Drummer wrote a book on theory and keyboard for drummers. I haven't looked into it, but I imagine it's a good place to start...

[Latin Groover]

http://www.musictheory.net/

This is a great site for theory. I personally have no use the lessons but the ear trainers are great. All the trainers are great. Do this site for 10mins a night and trust me you'll be picking modes and scales with ease.

This site covers so much for your VCE (victorian year 12's). Do this often and you'll ace your exam. And the Dulcie Holland books are good too, although i think they only have them in Aus, not sure.

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

Walter Piston has a good Orchestration book. His harmony book is also very good; but if you are more advanced, go for Schoenberg's!!
If you really want to learn about orchestration, get all Stravinsky's works, he could really take every instrument to its limits. Also Ravel was a fantastic orchestrator.

The book I had used in the past was 'Principles Of Orchestration' by Korsakov. Piston's book looks nicer. I also like that it is a hardcover. I'll have to add Piston's to my wish list.

http://www.musictheory.net/

This is a great site for theory. I personally have no use the lessons but the ear trainers are great. All the trainers are great. Do this site for 10mins a night and trust me you'll be picking modes and scales with ease.

That is a great site! I found that before. For someone who doesn't know any theory, that is a great place to start if you are looking for a website to learn from. I agree that the ear training exercises are nice. I was using them several months ago. Thanks for reminding me about that site!

[Wile E. Coyote]

The book I had used in the past was 'Principles Of Orchestration' by Korsakov. Piston's book looks nicer. I also like that it is a hardcover. I'll have to add Piston's to my wish list.


Nice to know!
Well, Korsakov was a good orchestrator himself; maybe his book is as great as him! Never saw it before. But yes, Piston is a garantee. Also Schoenberg!

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

Nice to know!
Well, Korsakov was a good orchestrator himself; maybe his book is as great as him! Never saw it before. But yes, Piston is a garantee. Also Schoenberg!

I know Korsakov's book is good, but based on the reviews over at Amazon people seem to like Piston's better. They say Korsakov only used examples from his own music, and didn't go into as much detail as Piston. One reviewer said Korsakov's book didn't even talk about basics like instrument ranges, but I'm pretty sure it did. That's the main reason I was using that book when I was in college- it was on my composition teacher's shelf.

[ledzepjb]

Theory can only help you, but when you're on stage, dont pay attention to theory.

[d.c.drummer]

you absolutly dont need theory training to play the drums well. But the thing is, you neeed to know theory. while dennis chambers may have never taken formal lessons, he could teach a master class at Berklee. you develop your own.

But for some, developing it on your own can take a little more time. And knowing notations like you would learn them in a music theory class would help you communicate musically

i would suggest taking music theory, it definitely doesnt hurt