muscle development

[Jesvin]

My arms arent built. they are kinda thin (not much fat). let me make it clear. i am not trying be a body builder or something but i just want some flesh and muscles to build up my endurance. i believe that if i have a little more strength in my arm, that alone will take my speed a few notches up. i have a pair of dumbells(3kg) and a pair of ankle weights.
how can i put these to better proper use?

i also need some other exercises for leg muscles. . to sumarize i need exercises for the following;
1) forearm
2) biceps
3) triceps (optional, coz i dont tink we drummers use triceps much; do we? correct me if wrong)
4) calf muscles

i am turning to you guys for help and support. thanx in advance ..
jesvin

[jonescrusher]

The truth is this kind of muscle toning is needless as a means to technical improvement and speed. You simply need to ensure that your technique is correct and you practice endlessly. This will tone the fine muscle fibres that you'll require to improve speed and endurance.
A warm-up is always a good thing though, i'd say 20 press-ups isn't a bad start.

[Mr. Pasquini]

Speed will eventually develop with repetition.

P.S. I talked to my Health instructor. Extra weight will help some, but it's not as effective as you might hav thought.

[jonescrusher]

The thing that always jumps to mind when the bodybuilding argument arises is a pre-pubescent Tony Royster (ahem...). Undeniable that aged 12 he had power and speed, maybe of the calibre that your eluding to, but still had weedy little kid arms. Why? honed technique. There are no short cuts. Unfortunately.

[samthebeat]

that and the old jazzers, bellson looks like his arms a rotting in some of clips. His chops on the other hand are not rotting, they positiveley fat. I could list a hundred but i wont bother.

[jazzsnob]

Yeah, good technique is all you need. Trust me, if you spend all the time you might spend lifting weights practicing technique you will get more out of your drumming.

It's ALL about patience.

[PsYcHoTiC.DrUmMeR]

Building up muscles with weights is only good for looks...it wont improve your playing much. I would suggest doing drum arm excercises so that you get a smooth movement with the arms.. wrist excercises will strengthen the wrist which will improve your speed. Finger excercises are the hardest because they are the muscles we dont really use in everyday life but if as they develop they will certainly improve your speed. Also, for the legs you can do the heel toe action which will strengthen all of that enabling you to become faster..

[Jesvin]

Trust me, if you spend all the time you might spend lifting weights practicing technique you will get more out of your drumming.

It's ALL about patience.


Thanx for the replies.
Can you be a little more specific on what(/which) kinda techniques to practice??
Thanx
jesvin

[LayinDown]

Good question...

For drumming technique, I have started to practice out of Stone's Stick Control (see thread just on that book). Mostly single & double stroke, pardiddles, ect. I use a practice pad during the day/evening, and a pillow in bed before I hit the sack. I am told that perfect practice w/ a metronome (no matter how fast or slow) will greatly improve my chops, so that's what I am into now. Some others here my have better suggestions.

As far as lifting weights, I would only recommend it if you want to lift for health & looks. It is VERY healthy to maintain a regular weight lifting regimine (as well as cardio, but we're drummers!), so I would say go for it! Just don't lift too heavy and don't expect your speed to increase because of it.

Just my 2 cents...

[Legacyrik]

Yeah, good technique is all you need. Trust me, if you spend all the time you might spend lifting weights practicing technique you will get more out of your drumming.

It's ALL about patience.

Ofcourse your lazy ass will be dead of heart failure at 40 because you didn't excersise:) I'm kidding but you get my point.

I don't care what anyone says, I'm sure excersise in moderation will help your play. Maybe not directly as in technique but it will probably help in less visible ways. As for 12 year old tony royster, let's have him and a 40 year old version go run around the yard and see who passes out first. Comparing, energy/stamina with a kid and a grown adult just doesn't compute for me since my son could run me in the ground, he never get's tired. Me on the other hand, have to keep my stuff kept up or I'm worthless.

[spw]

Do the 2-50 exercise or a variation of it, it rocks (no pun intended).

[KCMcC]

Perhaps the most direct (but least obvious way) that strength training can benefit your drumming is postural stability. Strong abs, strong hips and lower back, and a strong upperback/shoulder area (particularly the scapular retractors), developed IN BALANCE with their antagonist muscles, will enable you to sit more comfortably, with better and more efficient posture, and to move around the set with less danger of putting yourself in awkward or fatiguing postions (which in the long run can lead to overuse injuries that might not seem to have anything to do with drumming).

Specifically, the exercises best suited for this, and best suited for similar reasons to ehanching overall health and quality of life are ground based free weight lifts (PROPERLY PERFORMED variations on squats, deadlifts, and the quick lifts) and bodyweight exercises (pushups, situps, pullups) combined with other exercises to ensure a complete and well balanced program.
Remember first and foremost that the body is a system of overlapping muscles and tendons, not a collection of discrete elements, and that the nervous system is as capable of being worn out as the musculature. Train and design a program with these in mind, and your drumming (somewhat directly and greatly indirectly) and health WILL thank you for it.

[handito]

It is not about muscular strenght. I am and was born disabled, meaning that I am in a wheelchair. my point is that due to my condition i am not very strong, but I have still gained speed and endurance from just practicing drums

[Jeff Almeyda]

Spend at least as much time on flexibility and range of motion training as you do on exercising so that you won't tighten up.

I would recommend training more like a martial artist or a pitcher than a bodybuilder.

Speed and endurance come from relaxation. Tight muscles will never cut it.

[rjvsmb]

Spend at least as much time on flexibility and range of motion training as you do on exercising so that you won't tighten up.

I would recommend training more like a martial artist or a pitcher than a bodybuilder.

Speed and endurance come from relaxation. Tight muscles will never cut it.


A pitcher? Pitchers are probably the least conditioned athletes in baseball.

Martial artists? Did you know that Bruce Lee was an avid weight lifter?

When training properly, there's no reason to even think about tightness. Did you know that tight muscles many times are a result of an imbalance of muscular strength as well as the shortening of muscles due prolonged static positions like sitting at a desk all day or a drum stool? In this position the hip flexors tend to shorten and can cause low back and knee pain.

Resistance trianing doesn't equal tightness. Some of the most inflexible clients I come across are thin, out of shape and never lift weights.

I agree that flexibility and range of motion are very important, but don't get body building confused with a well round exercise routine that incorporates resistance training, stability, range of motion and regeneration (massage and flexibility). Take a look at what KCMcM wrote. He is very right on point in regard to exercising the way the body functions in order to develop strength, stability and even flexibility.

By the way, some of the most flexible people I know are body builders, line backers, running backs and Olympic lifters - all pretty muscular. Now don't go and confuse this with me advocating building muscles as a means to improve drumming. I am advocating being fit and healthy for better quality of life.

Speed and endurance comes for practicing and challenging your current level of proficiency in a controlled, relaxed manner.

[Jesvin]

but what about drummers like thomas lang and virgil donati who have muscular arms. doesn't give an added power to their strokes. doesnt help for quick and continuous cross overs(like virgil always does on his crashes)?.

i know that then skinny royster did play fast. but i am just wondering, wudnt strong arms add more power to the strokes?

jesvin

[Jeff Almeyda]

A pitcher? Pitchers are probably the least conditioned athletes in baseball.

Martial artists? Did you know that Bruce Lee was an avid weight lifter?

When training properly, there's no reason to even think about tightness. Did you know that tight muscles many times are a result of an imbalance of muscular strength as well as the shortening of muscles due prolonged static positions like sitting at a desk all day or a drum stool? In this position the hip flexors tend to shorten and can cause low back and knee pain.

Resistance trianing doesn't equal tightness. Some of the most inflexible clients I come across are thin, out of shape and never lift weights.

I agree that flexibility and range of motion are very important, but don't get body building confused with a well round exercise routine that incorporates resistance training, stability, range of motion and regeneration (massage and flexibility). Take a look at what KCMcM wrote. He is very right on point in regard to exercising the way the body functions in order to develop strength, stability and even flexibility.

By the way, some of the most flexible people I know are body builders, line backers, running backs and Olympic lifters - all pretty muscular. Now don't go and confuse this with me advocating building muscles as a means to improve drumming. I am advocating being fit and healthy for better quality of life.

Speed and endurance comes for practicing and challenging your current level of proficiency in a controlled, relaxed manner.

I didn't say don't lift weights. I said: Don't train like a bodybuilder. I know this from direct experience. I was an avid amateur bodybuilder. At my peak I was 5, 9" and 185 lbs at approx 6% bodyfat. I was MUCH bigger then yet I'm much faster now.

Bodybuilders train in a manner that subjects the muscle to extended time under tension so as to stimulate hypertrophy. The muscles get PUMPED. I say that the pump is the enemy of good drumming. A pumped muscle is so tight that it can't move fast.

Olympic lifters, martial artists etc DO NOT train in this manner. They do not seek the pump. They seek higher levels of performance. An enormous difference.

The pitcher's analoy is actually quite accurate becaue both a pitcher and drummer have to accelerate a small object as fast as possible. That old adage about pitchers doesn't fly today. Modern athletes are dealing with millions-dollar contracts. They have access to the BEST training tech. Today's baseball player is a highly specialized athlete unlike his beer drinking predecessor.

And you say some of the most flexible people you know are bodybuilders? That's funny because just about every bodybuilder I know is tight as all in the shoulder girdle. Most of the guys with real big arms and chests can't even get their arms behind their back to give themselves their weekly dose in the rear end (if u know what I mean). Their rotator cuffs are torn up and their front delts and pecs are way too tight.

Bodybuilders aren't even real athletes. They train solely for appearance, unlike an Olympic weight lifter or martial artists. All three lift weights but the poundages, set and rep schemes and periodization timtables are significantly different.

Go ahead and lift weights but make sure you train in a sport-specific manner.

[jarrod]

As most of the drummers here have said, your weighr lifting wont increase your endurance or speed, it will make u stronger. You dont need big guns :D because you should be relaxed and using your figners and or wrist, and to get better at something you must practise that something, in this case drumming.

Speed and endurance is acheved by good technique and loads of practise

[Raymond Bloom]

And you say some of the most flexible people you know are bodybuilders? That's funny because just about every bodybuilder I know is tight as all in the shoulder girdle. Most of the guys with real big arms and chests can't even get their arms behind their back to give themselves their weekly dose in the rear end (if u know what I mean). Their rotator cuffs are torn up and their front delts and pecs are way too tight.

Bodybuilders aren't even real athletes. They train solely for appearance, unlike an Olympic weight lifter or martial artists. All three lift weights but the poundages, set and rep schemes and periodization timtables are significantly different.

Go ahead and lift weights but make sure you train in a sport-specific manner.
I agree to everything you sayed except this!

I know some people who are bodybuilders and my brother used to be semi-pro so I know alot about bodybuilding. That's true, they have problems with flexibility and because of that it's obligatory to do stretching exercises, a good bodybuilder can do a leg-split ant stuff like that, bodybouidilng is all about having a perfect body, a body that is very strong, symmetrical and flexible


now, as for weight lifting and speed, speed is all about fast twitching muscles and if you want to gain more speed you have to actually switch to smaller muscle groups because bigger muscle groups can't contract as fast as bigger muscle groups.

A quote from Jojo Mayer speaking about Buddy Rich's push-pull: ''I think his secret , besides tha fact that he was totally relaxed while doing it, was that he could compleately isolate the finger movement from the rest of the hand. Almost no wrist action.That's cruical to get the speed: less mass = more agility /speed.''

[Jeff Almeyda]

I agree to everything you sayed except this!

I know some people who are bodybuilders and my brother used to be semi-pro so I know alot about bodybuilding. That's true, they have problems with flexibility and because of that it's obligatory to do stretching exercises, a good bodybuilder can do a leg-split ant stuff like that, bodybouidilng is all about having a perfect body, a body that is very strong, symmetrical and flexible


now, as for weight lifting and speed, speed is all about fast twitching muscles and if you want to gain more speed you have to actually switch to smaller muscle groups because bigger muscle groups can't contract as fast as bigger muscle groups.

A quote from Jojo Mayer speaking about Buddy Rich's push-pull: ''I think his secret , besides tha fact that he was totally relaxed while doing it, was that he could compleately isolate the finger movement from the rest of the hand. Almost no wrist action.That's cruical to get the speed: less mass = more agility /speed.''

I hear you. My experience has been that bodybuilders are very tight in the upper body especially the forearms and shoulder girdle. They tend to stretch their lower body much more than the upper. But, that's really up to the individual. If they decide to get flexible, they can.

I really like the less mass = more speed quote too. I think I'll use it myself when I want to look smart. :)

[Belgiandrummer]

If you train for example your forearms, they will get shorter (less flexible), and that way you won't be able to play as fast as your used to, unless you stretch them a lot.
If you don't believe me: do killers (squeeze really hard with your hands) as long as possible, and then try to play fast...You'll see. Instead of training them I would stretch them.

[Jesvin]

which exercises can i use for stretching

[KCMcC]

If you train for example your forearms, they will get shorter (less flexible), and that way you won't be able to play as fast as your used to, unless you stretch them a lot.
If you don't believe me: do killers (squeeze really hard with your hands) as long as possible, and then try to play fast...You'll see. Instead of training them I would stretch them.


This (what I bolded in the quote above) is for all effects and purposes a physiological impossibility. Unfortunately it's also a widely believed myth. Can you propose to me a reasonable physiological mechanism through which a muscle will somehow get shorter if you train it? Will the bone get shorter too? If the Bone doesn't get shorter, the only way the muscle could get shorter is if the tendon got longer.

Flex your bicep.
Now notice the gap between the end of the muscle itself, and the elbow. That is the length of your biceps tendon, and is almost entirely genetically predetermined. The same is true of tendon length at pretty much every insertion of a muscle to a joint in your body.

Is it important to do flexibility work to fix tight areas, and maintain joint mobility? Yes.
Will improper strength training, with incomplete range of motion and imbalance between antagonist muscles hurt your flexibility? Yes.
Will proper strength training with a balanced distribution of work between all muscle groups, and full range of motion in physiologically correct exercises hurt your flexibility (or your speed on the drums)? Absolutely not!

[skinny]

I don't believe a drummer should work out with anything more the 10 Lbs with many reps

[KCMcC]

I don't believe a drummer should work out with anything more the 10 Lbs with many reps

Can you provide a reasoned scientific explanation with a basis in human physiology for that position?

[KCMcC]

A little more.

10lbs is kind of arbitrary isn't it?
Life in general requires us to pick up a lot of things heavier than 10lbs:
A bag of dogfood
A bag of Mulch
An easy chair
A son or daughter
A pet other than a chihuaha or a pekingese
etc

Drumming does too:
A big metal shell snare drum
A big bass drum
A HARDWARE BAG

I could go on and on. Why would you think that picking up something heavier than that in the gym and actually working at getting stronger would somehow make you a worse drummer?

[GRUNTERSDAD]

I don't believe a drummer should work out with anything more the 10 Lbs with many reps

and that may be why they call you skinny.. Weight training can be very specific to the activity for which it is intended to improve. Ask Tiger Woods about weight lifting and flexibility. He has trained his body to be the most efficient machine it can be for the game of golf. Other routines can be used for other activities. It is true that other than moving your drum set from car to gig etc., it is not necessary to bulk up to lift a pair of 3 ounce drumsticks. What a drummer needs is extreme coordination, and endurance to play for an extended period.

I won't throw my degree in anyones face, but I have a degree in Physical Education and Kinesiology and I know of what I speak. All of the myths and old wives tales in this thread are quite funny to be truthful, but to say "don't lift more than ten pounds," exercising makes muscles shorter," and "body builders aren't flexible" are just plain bunk. If you are serious about this find an exercise physiologist and find the truth.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

A little more.

10lbs is kind of arbitrary isn't it?
Life in general requires us to pick up a lot of things heavier than 10lbs:
A bag of dogfood
A bag of Mulch
An easy chair
A son or daughter
A pet other than a chihuaha or a pekingese
etc

Drumming does too:
A big metal shell snare drum
A big bass drum
A HARDWARE BAG

I could go on and on. Why would you think that picking up something heavier than that in the gym and actually working at getting stronger would somehow make you a worse drummer?

...a 22 inch ride cymbal....

[skinny]

I think a drummer can be slowed down with heavy weights
heavy weight training can cause muscle boundness and stiffness
A drummer should want speed and flexability
by the way
I know a bald headed guy they call curly
The name stuck after he lost his hair

[GRUNTERSDAD]

I think a drummer can be slowed down with heavy weights
heavy weight training can cause muscle boundness and stiffness
A drummer should want speed and flexability
by the way
I know a bald headed guy they call curly
The name stuck after he lost his hair

Heavy weights may caused some problems, but you said 10 pounds. Second there is no such thing as "muscle boundness" which is my whole point. This term is probably 50 years old and has many times been disproved. The perfect body for any male would be that of a gymnast. Big strong upper body, but EXTREMELY flexible, if you have ever watched a summer olympics. I will guarantee you that someone with a gymnasts body would have no problem learning how to play the drums. I will agree that a drummer would want speed and flexibilty, but to think that because one lifts weight would cause he or she to lose either is just wrong. The skinny part was a joke.

[d.c.drummer]

For the large part, endurance doesnt com from muscle mass (look up any olympic cross-country runner and you would swear they are starving). The twitch muscles and your shoulders will beuild up naturally to deal with your playing if they are not already there.

[KCMcC]

I think a drummer can be slowed down with heavy weights
heavy weight training can cause muscle boundness and stiffness


Above, I asked you a very simple and specific question:


"Can you provide a reasoned scientific explanation with a basis in human physiology for that position?"


Can you?

[KCMcC]

...a 22 inch ride cymbal....

Inspite of being perhaps the most vocal advocate in favor of serious strength training for people in every walk of life (including drummers) I do have to admit the following:

My 22" weighs 2108g
that's about 4.6lbs

[Ozzy Biz]

well how about one of those stagg 30" rides then?

[Jesvin]

my question is to KCmcc and gruntersdad (ofcourse anyone can answer)

can u guys tell me each exercises are apt for drummers ?( try to be a little specific, i dont know much terminology in body building). wat kinda exercises do gymnasts do?
i wud greatly appreciate your replies. u guys seem to hav real gud knowledge abt these kinda stuff
thanx

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Last months DRUM Magazine had some exercises listed for the legs(it was a double bass drum issue), some of which were squats with light weights, again to increase endurance, and I would say step exercises to help build calf and the muscles in the front of the legs. For your arms you dont need much, again you are only lifting drum sticks, but anything that will help develope your forearms, which can be small hand weights. You will build most of your upper body just by playing, and don't forget to breathe. I would worry more about rudiments at a young age, than exercises and the like. If you are fairly active and have a normal life you will probably get the stretching you need. Also it helps to warm up if you plan on playing gigs or long practice sessions, and this can be done by slow stretching.

[druid]

actually I thinklifting biking and other types of activities can be very beneficial to drumming....I recently read somewhere an article that summed up something that I had been discovering for myslef abou tthis...lifing and creating some strength with a variety of machines helps with a persons overall body awareness and control...this can only help your playing if done in moderation... I was lifting for awhile there and conditioning myslef rather than trying to 'bulk up' and found not only did my motor ability improve ( even if slightly) but a confidence and stamina increased as well and I no longer felt tired after a three hour gig...and I am talking from when I was younger compared with now. Alos loading equipment is helped and my lower back was strengthened...I will agree really only practicing and focussing on technique will really 'improve' your playing ...but excersise in general I feel is a good contributor to the overall picture as far as health, body awareness, confidence and overall strength and stamina.

[ledzepjb]

I think a drummer can be slowed down with heavy weights
heavy weight training can cause muscle boundness and stiffness
A drummer should want speed and flexability
by the way
I know a bald headed guy they call curly
The name stuck after he lost his hair

Sorry to say, but your little comment at the end''I know a bald headed guy they call curly
The name stuck after he lost his hair'' doesent have to do with anything that we are talking about and i dont find it very funny(dont take it personnaly)

[Zumba_Zumba]

Above, I asked you a very simple and specific question:


"Can you provide a reasoned scientific explanation with a basis in human physiology for that position?"


Can you?

Sure! It all has to do with strength imbalances between the agonist and antagonist that you mentioned elsewhere in this thread. Here is a prime example of a muscle (group) physiologically shortening: your pectorals. Do a ton of bench press and neglect the scapular retractors and you will develop more strength on the pect side. The pects pull the scapulae forward and you have a nice rounded shoulder look. Over time (say a few weeks or a couple of months) your pectoral muscles are positioned in a shortened and disadvantaged position. Physiologically, the muscle fibers lose sarcomeres (the contactile units of the muscles) to compensate and restore a more advantageous resting length so they can contract more forcefully. They are physiologically shortened. Stretch muscles and they gain sarcomeres and physiologically lengthen to maintain an optimal resting length.

[crazyhorse]

If you've never played long enough to feel like you just worked out then you need to practice more before you worry about how to work out. I marched snare in school and it was pretty funny when we're compare our forearms to people that didn't play drums. At the time I really wasn't doing anything as far as weight lifting yet all the playing I was doing was toning my muscles to a point.

Practice your rudiments... push the limits of your speed... you'll get faster. The playing into a pillow thing has always been a classic way to get your speed up. If you want to "lift weights" for drumming try playing with heavier sticks when you're doing your practicing. I used to use a pair of Delucia marching sticks before they went to a lighter weight version a few years back. After playing with those you'd lose control of lighter sticks if you weren't careful lol I've got some Tama sticks that someone gave me that I use for practice purposes because of their weight.

[thebrza]

Despite all the back-and-forths, I still feel like posting this:

I think excercising the right way CAN help your playing, but many are right that certain methods of excercise won't help (training just to bulk up) and some elements of drumming won't be given any additional edge by doing some crazy high-resistant training (speed)

Without ranting on about why, cause I think we're all smart enough to know, if you're out of town for, say, a month, and you aren't able to play your drums, doing some calisthenics a few days/week can, I would think, help keep your muscles toned. Otherwise, after a few days, they'll start to get 'lazy' again.

I think the only thing you can really help, though, is endurance. I agree with others who said proper technique and regularly practicing is all you need to develop skill and speed. However, in the last 2 months, since I started regularly excercising, I've noticed much MUCH more endurance in my shoulders (which is where I feel fatigue the most. the kind of fatigue that comes after you're just completely burnt and have to rest. not the kind you get in your forearms that just means take a minute break and go back)

Hope this all makes sense.

[thebrza]

Although, does anyone know what kind of cardio workout drumming gives? I'm sure some will say "good" and some will say "great" but has anyone actually ASKED a health professional? You are sitting down, after all... swimming, for example, seems like something that would be intense, but it's actually not terribly high in terms of cardio (you're floating, don't forget)

[ghuyuiq]

This (what I bolded in the quote above) is for all effects and purposes a physiological impossibility. Unfortunately it's also a widely believed myth. Can you propose to me a reasonable physiological mechanism through which a muscle will somehow get shorter if you train it? Will the bone get shorter too? If the Bone doesn't get shorter, the only way the muscle could get shorter is if the tendon got longer.

Flex your bicep.
Now notice the gap between the end of the muscle itself, and the elbow. That is the length of your biceps tendon, and is almost entirely genetically predetermined. The same is true of tendon length at pretty much every insertion of a muscle to a joint in your body.

Is it important to do flexibility work to fix tight areas, and maintain joint mobility? Yes.
Will improper strength training, with incomplete range of motion and imbalance between antagonist muscles hurt your flexibility? Yes.
Will proper strength training with a balanced distribution of work between all muscle groups, and full range of motion in physiologically correct exercises hurt your flexibility (or your speed on the drums)? Absolutely not!
Your muscles do get 'shorter' and that's why younger people that are not fully grown shouldn't do powertraining.