Anti Technique ??

[Jay.B.]

I know I'll probably get shafted sideways by 99% of the members here for saying this, maybe it's been discussed before (I can't find it), but it's been eating away at me since before I can remember...

Why do people get so uptight about technique, go so overboard on technique, think that because they can nail a certain technique it makes them awesome etc. etc... Yeah , up to a point, some techniques are essential to general playing, but how about feel & groove? some of the best grooves out there are the simplest rhythms, but because of the feel they have, it makes them so totally awesome, to me at least, technique comes second, possibly third, after all it's supposed to be fun as well. If there is a certain technique that is required to pull off a certain rhythm, then maybe I'll give it a go, see if it compliments or improves my playing. The best compliment I received lately was after a gig, a guy headed straight up to me and said "you aren't the best drummer I've seen, but man have you got a good groove, you sounded great" which to me meant 100 times more than somebody questioning what I did where in a certain song like "that lick in the second chorus was awesome, how did you play that" 'cause if an audience is listening to individual parts instead of the song as a whole, then you've lost them.

Maybe I'm just being vindictive because I'm not a technical player, don't have days on end to practice doubletrippleflamadabblediddleparas or whatever the "NEW" thing at the moment is, I still think my point is a valid one from my perspective.

Sorry

[TitanSound]

Oh....big can o' worms you have opened here mate!!

hehehe...kust kidding.

I remember replying to a thread a little while ago and pretty much saying the exact same thing as above. I have also had conversations with other drummers about my views and have been totally slated for it and called lazy by some.

Laziness has nothing to do with it! In my mind I am there to support the song, not show off. I am there to provide a solid backing for the band. As I also write material for the band I have all the rhythms worked out in my head beforehand so if I know I want to put something in I cannot pull off....I practice the method needed to pull it off.

I also understand the need for practice though. It is nice to have some tricks up your sleeve incase you need them. But I only have a pad to practice on..I have been told many times before that is sufficent....but I do not think so. Playing on ONE rubber pad when you are getting stickings worked out is one thing...being able to apply it round the kit without practicing on one (which I cannot do at home) with ease is a totally different thing in my experience.

[wy yung]

Technique is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

At least that's how I see it.

Why do some people become obsessed with things in general? Who knows the many reasons people do what they do? I know I don't.

[Jay.B.]

I really should get on here more, then I might have seen that thread, mods, please feel free to delete this thread if it is close in topic to another one, I won't be offended...

I agree titan, Practice is important, as are some of the basic rudiments and stick control, it's like the whole guitar solo thing, especially in rock & metal, why do people thing that ripping up and down scales at 100 mile per hour is cool, some of the best guitar solos are on as few as 2 notes with a couple of slides, my favourite guitar solo is on one note with a dirty great big crunchy slide at the end. Like you said dude, you play what's necessary and right for the situation, doesn't make you lazy, and it is difficult to transfer ideas from a single pad to a kit, I only have a pad to practice on as well, it gets used for the bare basics to keep my internal clock up to scratch (when it finally gets there, it's not too bad getting). it's a shame that natural groove isn't something that can be taught, well not very easily any way.

[wy yung]

I really should get on here more, then I might have seen that thread, mods, please feel free to delete this thread if it is close in topic to another one, I won't be offended...

I agree titan, Practice is important, as are some of the basic rudiments and stick control, it's like the whole guitar solo thing, especially in rock & metal, why do people thing that ripping up and down scales at 100 mile per hour is cool, some of the best guitar solos are on as few as 2 notes with a couple of slides, my favourite guitar solo is on one note with a dirty great big crunchy slide at the end. Like you said dude, you play what's necessary and right for the situation, doesn't make you lazy, and it is difficult to transfer ideas from a single pad to a kit, I only have a pad to practice on as well, it gets used for the bare basics to keep my internal clock up to scratch (when it finally gets there, it's not too bad getting). it's a shame that natural groove isn't something that can be taught, well not very easily any way.

You know, I think youth and testosterone play a big part in it. You can see it in many players solos as they get older. After a while they realise that one note is just as important as 50, if it is played with feeling and soul. Youth isn't so much about that. It's about fast paced excitement and wind in the hair at high speeds. This seems to be reflected in music.

[Jay.B.]

Technique is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

At least that's how I see it.

Why do some people become obsessed with things in general? Who knows the many reasons people do what they do? I know I don't.

pretty much my angle, if it's needed to be able to nail a certain groove you've got in your head then yeah, give it a go, but not for the sake of it. Obsession in general is a bad thing (spins round and realises I might look slightly obsessed myself)

it's just something that bothers me, has done since I got back behind a kit, not having a dig at anybody, just generalising.

[Jay.B.]

You know, I think youth and testosterone play a big part in it. You can see it in many players solos as they get older. After a while they realise that one note is just as important as 50, if it is played with feeling and soul. Youth isn't so much about that. It's about fast paced excitement and wind in the hair at high speeds. This seems to be reflected in music.

Good point, guess I should just leave things to be as they are, the right people will shine in time, and for the right reasons

[fat in the middle]

I will say it again, the more we are prepared with technique, when the real music comes, we can let it flow out of our limbs without thinking. Its great to be prepared. Muscles have memory, and that with life experience makes a drummer a musician. When technique is put first, the music won't come. Its harder to leave out the notes when you don't know that they are there in first place., and space is created best with people with good technique; Steve Gadd?

[wy yung]

I don't think there is anything wrong with this thread or what you've said.

There is a great post written by Gary Husband in response to learning a specific technique on his thread, and his attitude toward it. He'd rather approach things in a very individual way. Which is really reflected in his unbelievable playing style. I think what this shows is that there is an infinite way of looking at and interpreting music. Or anything else as well. I think this seemingly endless range of individual interpretations is what provides the spark in life. One guy is obsessed with a paradiddle, another wants nothing to do with it, they then do their own thing.

GREAT! :-)

[samthebeat]

tatotally hear what your saying thier dude, after re-reading your post ican see we come from the same place.

[Mr. Pasquini]

You know, I think youth and testosterone play a big part in it. You can see it in many players solos as they get older. After a while they realise that one note is just as important as 50, if it is played with feeling and soul. Youth isn't so much about that. It's about fast paced excitement and wind in the hair at high speeds. This seems to be reflected in music.
While I know I'm no wise man or great player, I know I'm not going to be amazing because I can play a flurry of notes in the time it takes you to play one. Some people can crank out 900+ bass beats in a minute but some people hit the bass drum once with passion and it just makes your heart sing. It definitely doesn't change the fact that I have the urge to stop doing rudiments "Ok paradiddle, paradiddle, paradiddle, paradiddle, single strike roll x21, over hand under hand for 30 minutes.... I'm bored, I'm gonna groove." part of it is me thinking it can't take that long for me to become great, the other part is me wanting to work something up to impress people. It's something every musician or performer of any type has to deal with. There is no true substitute for good root technique; or so is my musical experience with violin. If I get great with one technique, I can insert it properly where I want, while some people can kind of do 100 different techniques, they won't match up.

[Raymond Bloom]

technique is a tool to express your musical ideas. It's like learning a language, you can learn it so you are able to ask for directions, order a meal and say ''thank you'' or you can learn the language so you can comunicate without problems

better technique won't make one a better musician, but it will help becoming a better musician because of the fact that there aren't any technical limitations

that's my oppinion

[wy yung]

While I know I'm no wise man or great player, I know I'm not going to be amazing because I can play a flurry of notes in the time it takes you to play one. Some people can crank out 900+ bass beats in a minute but some people hit the bass drum once with passion and it just makes your heart sing. It definitely doesn't change the fact that I have the urge to stop doing rudiments "Ok paradiddle, paradiddle, paradiddle, paradiddle, single strike roll x21, over hand under hand for 30 minutes.... I'm bored, I'm gonna groove." part of it is me thinking it can't take that long for me to become great, the other part is me wanting to work something up to impress people. It's something every musician or performer of any type has to deal with. There is no true substitute for good root technique; or so is my musical experience with violin. If I get great with one technique, I can insert it properly where I want, while some people can kind of do 100 different techniques, they won't match up.

You've heard me play???

I am not arguing against technique at all. What I am saying is that each person is entitled to do what they want, to have their own opinion. I am a person who has spent about thirty years dedicated to technique. So I feel strongly about it and how good technique helps facilitate one's ideas. But I am not so one eyed that I can't have a respect for another's thoughts on the matter. I can also play fast. Anyone with fast action twitch muscles can play fast if they are exercised. Big deal. Liberty DeVito made a great contribution with moderately fast twitch muscles.

[JCM]

The way I see it is, you should have a balance of both. Remember, too much of a good thing is bad for you.

[TitanSound]

You are right there Raymond.....problem is some people dont understand that and use technique as thier "trick" if you will. And when the word technique is spoken too these individuals the first thing that comes into thier mind is speed.

For me technique is to be able to play solidly, dynamically and musically. Speed to me is just a bonus. I was listning to a great track yesterday and it has kind of a loose, funky, messy rhythm to it. Nothing that challenging when listning to it and imaging how I would play it. I picked up the sticks and the pad and jesus was it hard to emulate. The reason for that was because obviously this guy had great technique but he never went beyond 120bpm on the whole album.

But as already stated its up to the individual to decide what they want to concentrate on. We are all drummers and if you are dedicated to your artform weather you are a technique or groove based drummer then more power to you

[Mr. Pasquini]

You've heard me play???

I am not arguing against technique at all. What I am saying is that each person is entitled to do what they want, to have their own opinion. I am a person who has spent about thirty years dedicated to technique. So I feel strongly about it and how good technique helps facilitate one's ideas. But I am not so one eyed that I can't have a respect for another's thoughts on the matter. I can also play fast. Anyone with fast action twitch muscles can play fast if they are exercised. Big deal. Liberty DeVito made a great contribution with moderately fast twitch muscles.

I wasn't saying that speed is like a bad thing, but I have friends who can barely hit a cymbal the right way but sit around all day on their double bass pedals LRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRL
No technique at all. That bothers me.

[Raymond Bloom]

For me technique is to be able to play solidly, dynamically and musically. Speed to me is just a bonus. I was listning to a great track yesterday and it has kind of a loose, funky, messy rhythm to it. Nothing that challenging when listning to it and imaging how I would play it. I picked up the sticks and the pad and jesus was it hard to emulate. The reason for that was because obviously this guy had great technique but he never went beyond 120bpm on the whole album.
Jojo Mayer got me into this, the importance of the sound you produce - choked, opened, staccato, singing, dry, powerfull, tight, loose etc
being able to controll the dynamics so extreme makes everything you play much more tastefull

I belive that the texture is really the most important thing to groove

[vadrum]

well, i like this post. nothing wrong w/ giving props to drummers w/ sick groove or drummers who focus on the groove. the groove and time is the main thing. w/o that element then all the one handed rolls in the world wont keep you working, except at ringling bros (right next to the bearded lady).

honestly, to me, techinque is simply a way of allowing me to play what i want to play while using as little effort possible. its not really as much about speed. although, the ability to play fast is nice, it is definitely not essential in order to work and is focused on a little too much sometimes.

anyway, good post.

[JWM]

Using an analogy from the martial arts, I think Bruce Lee said it best on the subject of technique--

"Mere technical knowledge is only the beginning of Kung Fu. To master it, one must enter into the spirit of it."

[Tama Player]

I wasn't saying that speed is like a bad thing, but I have friends who can barely hit a cymbal the right way but sit around all day on their double bass pedals LRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRL
No technique at all. That bothers me.

Maybe you should tell them abut RLRRLRLLRLRRLRLLRLRR?
Hahaha! I hate it when people are like that, my friend cant play at all and yet everyone thinks he's a beast at the set. But I usually just sit back and listen to it all and wait till the talent show...

Peace
AGR

[RMS]

As Wy Yung said, technique is a means to an end, at least for me. I seek out a lesson or advice whenever I am unable to do something I want on my kit. I find out what technique is necessary or helps, and try to learn it, incorporating it into my regular practice. Right now I am working on accenting the second note of a double stroke, so I've been reading up on a few techniques, and I started a month of drum lessons because I need someone to let me know if I'm on the right track.
As with anything, muscle memory will soon come into play, and my double stroke rolls and paradiddles (which are not techniques themselves but rudiments that I do use) should become smoother, and I will be happy until there's something else I decide to work on...

[Wavelength]

For me, technique means effortless control over sound. Speed comes from technique, but it isn't the measure of technical proficiency. I find good technique essential, because it gives me the possibility to play those great sounding and deceptively simple grooves easily, consistently and at will.

[Jay.B.]

great input from everyone, the point I was making may have been a little extreme in my initial rant, but all so far seem to be of a similar opinion...

And in usual Jay.B. style I will now contradict myself HAHAHA

There are things I need to work on, technically, unfortunately, highlighted by this evenings rehearsal, first off I will apologise for leaving this thread for so long, after work I had to shoot straight over to the practice room to fix the PC and re-head a couple of drums, then after that I had to do a bit more work on some of the synth sounds, after nearlt 3 hours of being by my kit I actually got to play it... but the rest of the band had turned up by then so it was straight in to the songs, even in tea break I was fiddling around with the modulation on one of the sounds, there are times when I wish that all I knew was drums, but that wouldn't of helped me grow musically over the years... *sits staring at a roland JV1080* really ought to go and do more non drum related things, got to get my head around this piece of kit and start creating sounds for the latest batch of new songs... now where did I put that practice pad...

[DamoSyzygy]

some techniques are essential to general playing, but how about feel & groove?
Well, in my opinion feel and groove are the result of technique, balance, concentration and coordination. Players who cant play smoothly generally dont have good groove either, so by refining their techniq, it forces them to relax when they play, improving their timing, and eventually sense of feel & groove.

My $0.02 anyway...

[Wavelength]

Well, in my opinion feel and groove are the result of technique, balance, concentration and coordination. Players who can't play smoothly generally don't have good groove either, so refining their technique forces them to relax when they play, improving their timing, and eventually sense of feel and groove.

Exactly. Even if a person has a perfect and solid time, it will not translate into well timed playing without good technique. After all, time and timing are different things: time is universal, but timing is related to a specific technique.

[TitanSound]

You are both right....but the main issue of this thread is people who take technique too far and forget about the groove element.

Up until about a year ago my technique was terrible for somebody who has been playing as long as I have. Its a hard thing to undo 14 years of bad habits and self teaching. But once I got onto the right track a lot of things started to make sense.

The way I see it is, you should have a balance of both. Remember, too much of a good thing is bad for you.

I think JCM hit the nail of the head here.

[skippy]

You know, I think youth and testosterone play a big part in it. You can see it in many players solos as they get older. After a while they realise that one note is just as important as 50, if it is played with feeling and soul. Youth isn't so much about that. It's about fast paced excitement and wind in the hair at high speeds. This seems to be reflected in music.


thats very true. when i was just starting around 10 years old all i wanted to do was play as fast as i could. then i got maybe 13 and wanted to play just like travis barker(and that wasnt a bad thing cause thats how i learned to play) but now at 17 almost 18 im all about the groove. i mean if there is a certain part where i feel i can show my chops a little then most of the time i take it. and i have a friend who is also a drummer...well he has drums but wont learn to play them correctly or anything but thats another story and all i hear from him when im at my kit grooving is what thats it where are the fills and cymbals and im saying to him dude when you hold down a groove in a song with little flashyness that says so much more about your playing. and we have been playing the same amount of time but i just took opportunities and learned new things and widened my music collection and listened to new things.

but jay i totaly agree with you i mean somtimes ill practice the one hand roll and the push pull and maybe even the heel toe but as far as im concerned ive found what works for me and it may not work for someone else but i want to spend more time learning to play for the music than trying to get some wierd technique. but i like to have good technique for what im doin.

[Splinter]

I certainly agree that a lot of drummers and musicians are getting blind in the race for chops and the actual reason they are doing so. All this heel-toe and openclose when usually it isn't applied to change or add to the texture. Why don't drummers and musicians try and look for subtleties in the notes they play rather than trying to play more. I know Bernhard Purdie can make a very simple pattern sound very, very good and much better than I can/ever will be able to make it sound as good.

Why don't we just concentrate on playing for the music, not ourselves, the drummers, the musicians or the cute chick up the back ;). Do as much as you can through the subtleties, through rhythm. Stop focusing on playing something that sounds "cool". If it doesn't fit the music, don't play it.

And that's why I dont like Dave Weckl ;). I kid, don't get upset.

When I play, I don't care for flashyness.

[foursticks]

Joe Morello:

"Technique is only a means to an end," Morello stresses. "The more control you have of the instrument, the more confidence you will get and the more you will be able to express your ideas. But just for technique alone - just to see how fast you can play so you can machine-gun everybody to death - that doesn't make any sense. Technique is only good if you can use it musically."

Amen.

[dea]

Speed, technique, and musicianship are all three completely different.

However, one must master technique to some extent to get nice sounding grooves.
One does not need good technique to acquire tremendous speed.
One must have some sort of musicianship if you want to play music with people. Note the operative word, "with", as opposed to against.

I have come across some musicians that are so into themselves, its impossible to create any sort of musical connection with them. These guys were not musicians. They may have killer guitar technique and speed, but so what. I would rather play with a slow guitar player that has killer musicianship and has made some effort to to acquire technique than the fastest, highly trained guitarist with zero musicianship.

[secondXheartbeat]

Technique can only get you so far.

But it's comforting to know going into a difficult part in a song that youve got the chops to lay it down with out looking like a fool, so in some sense technique is my "fill insurance."

I always want to be sure that I won't have a botched fill.

[ledzepjb]

I think that technique is less important than feel. I'm not saying that im anti-technique just that for me it comes second.

[Mcbrain]

Brilliant thread !!!!

I am not one to post on many threads here. But DANG....WELL DONE......
I am very impressed with the responses to this point, Technique is very important to some and not very important to others. Take me for example... I am 110% positive that there are 20 billion better drummers out there better then me, But i am not sure there are many that have more fun then i do when i step behind my set. Do i have killer chops ??? at times MAYBE ??...is my timing perfect...NOOOOOOOOO...Can i groove ???...i hope so and my band mates say i do..At 40 yrs old with a wife and kids, mortgage and a full time job...I just do not have the time or the drive to perfect any of my techniques...But damn when i play Limelight or La Grange and nail it.........WOOHOO......It's like i WON THE LOTTO.........

Cheers all................................

[jackothedrummer1]

A jazz horn player, I believe Charlie Parker (I could be wrong on the artist), held the idea of technique from this point. He said something to the effect of learning all the technique he can while practicing, and forgetting it all when he played.

By that he meant that he played what he felt. This feeling is the art and emotion of music, the technique just simply allows him to play all that comes into his mind to express himself. This is DIRECTLY related to drumming.

Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. ~ Charlie Parker

[JWM]

I also think that there is an assumption that, because a drummer is "technical," that he/she is always "flashy."

Chuck out this clip of Virgil Donati playing live with Tina Arena--

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5QwdGPhbyZk

IMHO, Virgil sounds very musical, and shows great restraint.

Working very hard at technique (which for many does lead to the ability to be flashy) can actually instill a certain patience in the player. If you really WANT good technique, you have to sit down, focus and work very slowly for long periods of time. There are so many valuable lessons that can come from that that apply to actually playing music and serving the music.

And my thoughts are that, the more we free ourselves technically, the more we are able to play from the heart... this is because we aren't THINKING about the physical process so much: our limbs become an extension of our feelings about the music.

['groover']

hi man. i can see where your coming from and it is, all about groove, if you dont have it then why play drums? BUT what if the music calls for fancy fills, very complicated grooves, odd time, busy notes...they all need good technique to pull of well. so it depends if you want to be able to groove a song, or be open to anything? you said you only got a pad to practice on, there is more than a lifetimes worth to work on, on a pad, so why not instead of the same old. thats my view anyway, cheers

[sloppyn9ne]

Well yeah I understand the groove aspect of it, which is very important but not bothering to learn goodr techinque is like not changing your oil in your vehicle, its just not a good idea.

For being able to groove the way I can came from technique, but like what one of us said about forgetting what they practice and just play, I turn the mechanical technique into just groovein from the soul.

But for cryin out loud technique is important in anything you do.