Joining Highschool Jazz Band- Whats It All About?

[gusty]

what is jazz all about? i just got 2 new songs that we're playing this year (and my bros playing trumpet), the only one i know is have you met ms jones. dont know how to play it yet, havent proply looked at it. but what is jazz all about? wat makes a good jazz drummer? i have very little knowledge of this, since my band plays punk rock. so any help? some other songs we will be playing is the incredibles, moondance, macarther park. sway, really good stuff. so and suggestions/tips/help would be great.

[vadrum]

i cant pimp john riley's "the art of bop drumming" enough. its an excellent primer to the world of jazz music and jazz drumming and, in my opinion, touches on the most important aspects of playing jazz. it will cover a very wide scope of material. there are comping exercises (independence which is key for jazz drumming), why you play what you play behind a soloist (how to comp, another essential element), intros to song forms, soloing/how to develop a solo, brush patterns at all tempos in 4 and 3/4, chart reading (excellent material for jazz band), plus you get some very basic patterns for samba, mambo, and maybe even a bossa. then theres a discography and listing of great drummers and recordings of that era. solid book, check it out.

[foursticks]

Like jazzsnob always says 'LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN', it's truly the way to understand what jazz is, by just listening. I've said it many times before, the first album to get you into jazz is 'Kind of Blue' by Miles Davis. That album epitomises jazz and is the best album to play along to. I suppose if your highschool jazz band is a big band, then it might differ a very tiny bit, but you need to listen to all types of jazz really to know what its all about from be-bop to swing to traditional to dixie land, just go out and buy some jazz.

[jeffwj]

It is great to know the tune, but in a big band you need to depend upon your chart reading skills as well. There is a difference between reading notes and interpreting a chart. Pick up Steve Houghten's Studio and Big Band Drumming. He does a great job in explaining chart reading.

Seek out a teacher with experience in this area. There was a time when I felt lost in a big band. After studying that style with Steve Fidyk, an amazing big band drummer, I know how to approach most big band situations. There is nothing that replaces the guidance of a teacher.

And as stated before - listen. Listen to the big bands that brought the music to where it is today - Basie, Ellington, Dorsey, and Goodman would be a good start.

Jeff

[gusty]

thanks for the replies guys.

had the first practise today, im actually the first drummer in the band for a while who can actually read music, and my chart reading skills are fairly good/decent. something i forgot to mention in the first post is that the music department got a grant from the school to buy a new kit! got to play it for the first time today. its a yamaha stage custom advantage (im quite sure) in purple/black fade, worth 2600...all new hardware which was badly needed, and new skins which are for the other drum kit so it balances out a bit...so im stuck with the yamaha stock heads...and they badly need a tune. now the cymbals, i was told we were getting a k ride, and i was like sick, but the band director decided he rathered the aa metal-x pack better...not sure if this is a great choice. and yeah, it is big band. mostly i was just swinging and reading along, and my fills sucked, im really bad at ad libbing (haha is that a word) fills.

[jeffwj]

mostly i was just swinging and reading along, and my fills sucked, im really bad at ad libbing (haha is that a word) fills.

For a big band don't think about fills as much. Think more about setting up the figures that the band is playing. That is explained in Steve Houghton's book and video.

Jeff

[gusty]

wat do u guys think about the change between the metal-x's and the k?

[vadrum]

wat do u guys think about the change between the metal-x's and the k?

i cant really say im that thrilled by his decision to go w/ the metal-x and not the k. but, he has administration and a budget to worry about.

anyway, for big band playing these are players and bands to listen to:

count basie w/ papa jo jones or gus johnson - the old testament band
this will give you a good foundation for big band playing, although the approach to the music is not necessarily "modern" (at least w/ respect to the drummer's approach)

count basie w/ sonny payne or beyond - new testament band.
better example of modern big band drumming and sonny was the guy that really brought setting up figures for the band to jazz drumming, he developed that idea thouroughly.

duke ellington - any era, fantastic band

thad jones/mel lewis orchestra - cant say enough about this band, one of the baddest bands ever put down on record.

these are my personal favourites, but there are many more:

toshiko akiyoshi, benny goodman, stan kenton, woody herman, dizzy gillespie, etc.

listen to that music a lot and it will help w/ your understanding of the task at hand

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

wat do u guys think about the change between the metal-x's and the k?

It really doesn't matter. It is about how you play it....that's the scary part, in a way. I play jazz sessions these days in a den in Dumbo, New York. It is owned, and, I think, lived in, by a punk rocker drummer, and I use his kit for the sessions. The clangiest cymbals in the world, toms tuned so low they would blow the guitarist away. But because I spent years learning how to hit (with Dom), it sounds okay for what it is. And so it is with anything. The best gear won't help you that much, and the worst won't bring you down. It's what you bring to the table. And by the way, what you should bring is listening. This is where technique and gear, take a back seat to a much larger secret: After you learn to listen to the band, and not yourself, the gear, and even your technique, will not matter at all. DPS

[gusty]

thanks for those, my biggest problem with the cymbals is that they are very loud, just hitting them softly is quite loud. crash is pretty horrible, id prefer my xs20s over the metal x.

[frequencydrum]

Ey guys im in a high school big band and was wondring if you got any tips, the guy above said about not doing to many fills but i love fills :(m and thats why I do them around every 4 bars :D, they sound good and are fun so...

[aydee]

Hey Gust.. you just posed a series of question/s that I've been trying to pose on this forum lately, without much luck I might add.

I'm thoroughly enjoying my long personal journey as a jazz lover, but for guys like you who are terrific young drummers with tons of talent and and a curiosity for jazz, there should be some answers out there which are a little less philosophical / less esoteric and hopefully offer some kind of handle for you to grasp & help you move forward.

Unfortunately a large number of qualified Jazz players/lovers feel that is exactly what Jazz is NOT.

It shouldn't have a handle. It's essence lies in the undefinable and indescribable realms of improvisational playing.

I wish it was a little simpler than that.

To begin with, jazz has a history and a tradition that you could familiarize yourself with to the extent you wish.

There is tons of music out there and many different kinds of jazz, which can take more than a lifetime to imbibe & assimilate.

In terms of what you should listen to, there is a chronology of its evolution, dotted with the obvious 'Giants' of the genre which you could look up in any HISTORY OF JAZZ compilation, and study their styles.

You could start anywhere you wish to. In my view, Jazz has no prescribed entry point ( though many feel it should begin with certain landmark albums- each guy has his own set ). IMO, it could begin with whatever turns you on, and you take it from there

What makes a good jazz drummer is another awesome question in your post too. And like the others it is a difficult one to answer.

I'm not strictly a pure jazz player and perhaps Steamer, Jazzgregg, The Colonel, and some of the other cats out here can expand on this much more, but for me it is important to imbibe its history, know a lot of its music and then be skilled enough as a player to play it. Many will say that to play jazz you've go to swing. Partially true. To play jazz is to play the unexpected.

As a jazz player you are listening & reacting & creating every second your sitting on the drums. It is this interactive ability, and expressing yourself spontaneously that makes a good player, IMO. AND to be in that position, you'd better be good.
I'll probably get a lot of flak for saying this but I really do believe jazz players are more skilled than others.............. There, I said it!

Good luck with the gig.. and hook us up to it when its done.

[mrchattr]

Ey guys im in a high school big band and was wondring if you got any tips, the guy above said about not doing to many fills but i love fills :(m and thats why I do them around every 4 bars :D, they sound good and are fun so...

Here's the thing: they don't sound good. It's a big band. There are probably three trumpet parts, three trombone parts, 4 saxophone parts, a bass line, piano part, possibly a guitarist and vocalist, etc. That fills up a lot of space, not leaving a ton more for drum fills. The term "fill" actually comes from the concept of using the drums to "fill space" in a song. When you are playing with three other musicians, there is generally a lot of sonic space to fill with stuff. When there are 20 musicians...not so much. When a drummer overplays in a big band, there isn't much that sounds worse. It's kind of like the little kid in the family shouting "Mom, look at me, look at me, I'm cool, look at me, are you watching, are you watching? Mom? MOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!" '

Listen to Krupa or Rich when they were playing with big bands. Even though those guys were masters, who could move around a kit better than most drummers of their time or any time, when they were playing with big bands, they generally laid back and just kept time until solos. People were paying to see them play, but they still spent most of their time just comping, laying back, and letting their band play. A fill every four measures? Yikes.

Being in a band is about collaborating to play the best music possible as a band. If that means swirling brushes on a snare drum and nothing else, that's what you do. If it means comping for 64 measures before you play a fill, that's what you do. You need to listen to the band, not to the little voice in your head that says "Play lots and lots of fills."

One final note: As you play jazz, especailly with older, talented high school students and beyond, you will find that a lot of soloists like to play "over the bar line," or "beyond the bar line." This means that, in the course of their solo, a player won't often accent the "1" of a measure because they are still in the middle of their run. If you are dropping fills in over this, and then accenting each "1," you are going to sound like crap playing with any soloist that does that, because you aren't going to be lining up with him at all, and you will just sound amature. Often in rock, soloists play in four, eight, or sixteen bar phrases. In jazz, it's not uncommon for a soloist to play a sixteen bar solo, but break it up so that he plays a line that's four and a half bars, then two bars, then three bars, then one and a half bars, then five bars, and possibly even carry over to beat 2 or 3 of the next soloist. If you're accenting on beat 1 of every four or eight bar phrase, you are going to sound like you have no clue what's going on.

[percusboy]

what is jazz all about? i just got 2 new songs that we're playing this year (and my bros playing trumpet), the only one i know is have you met ms jones. dont know how to play it yet, havent proply looked at it. but what is jazz all about? wat makes a good jazz drummer? i have very little knowledge of this, since my band plays punk rock. so any help? some other songs we will be playing is the incredibles, moondance, macarther park. sway, really good stuff. so and suggestions/tips/help would be great.

just listen to the masters! If it's a big band listen to some Buddy Rich or Mel Lewis to get your ears going.

[Jeremy Bender]

Some great responses here! I would also recommend the videotapes by Louie Bellson and Ed Shaugnessy. Playing in a larger ensemble forces you to listen more to all the players and to balance your dynamics, i.e. if you can't hear the guys next to you you're playing too loud. Another great thing about High School jazz bands is that they can become the breeding ground for the future great players. The books mentioned earlier are great, and see if you can find a teacher who can help you with reading charts and interpretation of styles. Here's a couple of links to explore and keep practicing. http://vicfirth.com/education/drumset/houghton_beginner_lessons.html http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/edshaughnessygoodandbad.html

[k3ng]

Listen to Krupa or Rich when they were playing with big bands. Even though those guys were masters, who could move around a kit better than most drummers of their time or any time, when they were playing with big bands, they generally laid back and just kept time until solos. People were paying to see them play, but they still spent most of their time just comping, laying back, and letting their band play. A fill every four measures? Yikes.


I always thought Buddy was a little more 'full' in his big band playing. Alot going on in there. Except that he never made it more prominent than the other musicians.

[mrchattr]

I always thought Buddy was a little more 'full' in his big band playing. Alot going on in there. Except that he never made it more prominent than the other musicians.

It depends on what you listen to. You could argue that he was more "full" at some times, but then listen to stuff like his West Side Story work, etc, and it's really laid back.

[tomgrosset]

I always thought Buddy was a little more 'full' in his big band playing. Alot going on in there. Except that he never made it more prominent than the other musicians.

Yeah, I wouldn't say Buddy is the best example to use if you're just getting into big band playing. I would suggest you listen to guys like Sonny Payne and Philly Joe Jones (from Count Basie's big band), Louie Bellson, Gene Krupa and some other cats before you start listening to Buddy, even though he was amazing at what he did.

[jeffwj]

Since I last posted on this thread, Steve Fidyk's book/CD/DVD came out. It really gets into big band playing.
http://www.amazon.com/presents-Inside-Band-Drum-Chart/dp/0786676450/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218752957&sr=8-1


and this book is great for all around jazz coordination.
http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Drum-Independence-Steve-Fidyk/dp/0786677333/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218752742&sr=8-2



Jeff

[Class A Drummer]

what is jazz all about? i just got 2 new songs that we're playing this year (and my bros playing trumpet), the only one i know is have you met ms jones. dont know how to play it yet, havent proply looked at it. but what is jazz all about? wat makes a good jazz drummer? i have very little knowledge of this, since my band plays punk rock. so any help? some other songs we will be playing is the incredibles, moondance, macarther park. sway, really good stuff. so and suggestions/tips/help would be great.

Moondance and Macarther park you say? Both great songs which i played this year.

I think you should take a look at The big Jazz Thread. Also pick up John Rileys Art of Bop Drumming or Jim Chapins Advanced Techniques for the modern drummer. Watch alot of youtube videos for those songs you named and you can hear how its played on recordings.

[blade123]

-LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN!!!!!!!!!!!
-Art of Bop Drumming
-Spang-a-lang and hats on 2+4 will get you through about 80% of the song

[caddywumpus]

-LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN!!!!!!!!!!!
-Art of Bop Drumming
-Spang-a-lang and hats on 2+4 will get you through about 80% of the song

-yes
-yes
-yes, or maybe even 95% of some tunes.

[Fett2oo5]

Wow this is probably the best suited question for this Forum, there are soooo many jazz players on here to help you out.

I don't play jazz currently but I was in my High School's Jazz band, as well as my College's Jazz Band. I would say the most valuable thing I learned was that I should listen to the other players, and listen to the song itself. For instance, when a 8-16 bar solo came up, rather than go nuts during it, I would use my instruments (drums and cymbals) to try to "recreate" the rythms and "fills" from the other members.
Another thing I really liked was learning that a really good solo took ques from the entire song so during your solo you went through the entire song, which makes your drum solo a small little song within a song.

You can learn sssooooooo much from jazz band, and that is multiplied infinately if you have a really good instructor. If you have a good jazz band director, there won't be enough time in the school year for you learn all Jazz Band has to offer.

I would say if you are interested in playing drums after school, no matter what genre, the things you learn in Jazz band are the most indispensable. And would probably be the most effective in making you a better drummer. If the choice HAS to be made of Jazz Band or Drumline, I would recommend Jazz Band. And I LOVED my Drumline experiences a lot!

My advice: Learn as much as you possibly can while you are in Jazz band, and Have Fun with it!

[Fett2oo5]

Please don't get me wrong on this post, there is no disrespect, I'm merely stating that different generations like different things...

Being of a younger generation, and having been constantly "overstimulated" with everything in life, it was hard for me to fully appreciate the "older jazz" classics. While I fully respect and I am amazed at the talent of the big bands and jazz sets of the 20s-40s. They weren't albums I would have in my car and listen to all the time - I guess is my point.

However the "New Age" or rebirth of Big band if you want to call it, in the late 90s and early 2000s was more up my alley. Bnads like the Brian Setzer Orch., Cherry Poppin' Daddies, and my favorite of all of them Big Bad Voodoo Daddy - I still pop in one of their CDs today from time to time.

So if you are having a hard time "getting into" the Jazz/Big Band world, try picking up some of these bands CD's you might find them more to your liking, and you could pick up some good drumming ideas as well.

Some links of the bands I mentioned:

Big Bad Voodoo Daddy (http://www.bbvd.com/index2.html)

Cherry Poppin' Daddies (http://www.daddies.com/)

Brian Setzer (http://www.briansetzer.com/)

[Class A Drummer]

-LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN!!!!!!!!!!!
-Art of Bop Drumming
-Spang-a-lang and hats on 2+4 will get you through about 80% of the song

Well thats most of the songs. If the jazz band is anything like my jazz band, i would say about 30% of the songs are some sort of latin jazz, like La Fiesta or something.

[blade123]

Well thats most of the songs. If the jazz band is anything like my jazz band, i would say about 30% of the songs are some sort of latin jazz, like La Fiesta or something.

If his director is not a douche and knows how confusing latin jazz is to new players, I foresee a lot of straight forward swing. But still, in the other 70% of your songs, spang-a-lang would get him through it.

To the OP, if you director DOES spring some latin jazz, four patterns will get you through almost any song:
Samba
Mambo
Songo
All the claves (this is a rhythm more than a pattern, but a lot of latin is based off of it)

You can play those patterns in other styles (and of course change it to make it fit a little better), and you can get through most latin songs.

[maddrummr]

Well thats most of the songs. If the jazz band is anything like my jazz band, i would say about 30% of the songs are some sort of latin jazz, like La Fiesta or something.

thats a fun one...I like On Green Dolphin Street. Its got a mix of both.

[Class A Drummer]

If his director is not a douche and knows how confusing latin jazz is to new players, I foresee a lot of straight forward swing. But still, in the other 70% of your songs, spang-a-lang would get him through it.

To the OP, if you director DOES spring some latin jazz, four patterns will get you through almost any song:
Samba
Mambo
Songo
All the claves (this is a rhythm more than a pattern, but a lot of latin is based off of it)

You can play those patterns in other styles (and of course change it to make it fit a little better), and you can get through most latin songs.
I think its important for directors to bring latin songs into the jazz band. Im certain our pal Gusty wont be the only drummer in the ensemble. By no way is a teacher a "douche" for bringing in different styles of music. All he/she is doing is bringing in new styles to learn, that are important if you want to be a well rounded musician.

[blade123]

I think its important for directors to bring latin songs into the jazz band. Im certain our pal Gusty wont be the only drummer in the ensemble. By no way is a teacher a "douche" for bringing in different styles of music. All he/she is doing is bringing in new styles to learn, that are important if you want to be a well rounded musician.
Sorry, that came off more hostile than intended, I wasn't attacking you.
And yes, eventually he'll want to work on his latin stuff, but I'm sure the teacher is smart enough to wait until he has his basic swing down before he springs latin.

[gusty]

Haha, never thought I'd see this thread again.

Aydee- "What makes a good jazz drummer is another awesome question in your post too. And like the others it is a difficult one to answer."

I posted that question almost a year and a half ago and still havent found an answer, and I dont really expect to for a number of years.

Ok, so, coming back to the present...I've come a long way since the start of last year. I was then a follower- now more of a leader (or the bus driver as one of the teachers says). I've got more of an idea of what im doing (the funk/rock/latin ones we do ive got pretty good) but still sort of struggling with the jazz. i sometimes feel like im just 'faking'- like i dont really know what im doing.

Im the only drummer in the ensemble, which is such a good thing.

Ive been talking with my teacher about jazz a lot...i mean, i naturally get confused as to what is 'good' about things. Im trying to find an answer, since its such a hard question for someone to explain in words. By listening to tony williams, im starting to think that you dont have to play the expected thing that most people think sounds good...rather, its expressive. but what if you dont nessesarily believe in, or feel like playing expressively? and what if you dont know what sounds good to most people?

Jazz is the most confusing type of music.

[Mattsdad]

Recently my son Matt Smith informed me of this thread as it appeared to contradict or omit aspects that as an educator and band leader I consider important.

In my years of running big bands I have often discovered that drummers, much like lead trumpet players, live in a unique subculture of concepts and ideas that are contrary to what is deemed essential by the band leader, who in his position as front man can hear things that you guys do not hear in that rhythm section.

In my estimation, the most ignored primary goal of a big band drummer other than the obvious to "keep time" is to outline tutti sections, which is full ensemble performing an identical melodic sequence, and off beat patterns, especially those played by the trombone section.

For that reason I must disagree with young Mr. Grosset in stating that Buddy Rich is indeed excellent entry level big band material, in that he was in my mind the best big band outline artist, followed by Jo Jones, Louie Bellson and Mel Lewis. If you pay attention to how he outlines an ensemble, you will surpass 99% of all the big band drummers out there. That is why Rich's "West Side Story" is in fact excellent entry level listening tool, in that it explores numerous key outlining strategies. Of greatest significance, by doing so you will work in bands of quality. Leaders value the outlining big band drummer because that person can fill up a sound where unattractive scarcity previously existed.

I am aware of this rather new "less is more" trend being incorrectly exercised by some school band leaders, which includes drummers performing combo style independence at almost any juncture as a way of peripherally latching on to some of the newer big band concepts out there, Maria Schneider et. al. But in my estimation that is not the way to succeed in most school ensembles. In the majority of cases, those particular school band leaders usually come right back around to outlining concepts when their brass section gets a little thin. In high school or collegiate ranks especially, the big bands that do "best" in competition (yes it really does exist in music) follow these guidelines. Of greatest significance it helps your bandmates, who by natural selection do not play the drums.

With respect, please also notice how I have no problem stating "best" because it is part of the reality of band leading. Before I contract a functioning big band I first consult the drummer I judge best for the job. If that person cannot play the gig, I then contact the drummer I consider second best and so forth. Some of you may in theory forward the premise that there is no such thing as "best." But in my pragmatic role as band leader I do it anyway. I also believe in my rating system or I will not honor my contract, which puts me in the position of not producing the "best" possible music, and in turn makes it more difficult for me to pay my son's tuition at AIM.

A drummer's attention must also be focused towards the lead trumpet, in an almost symbiotic fashion. In the "best" big bands the lead trumpet runs the show. That includes phrasing and especially dynamics that many drummers believe do not pertain to them. Therefore if the lead trumpet immediately takes the ensemble from fortissimo to pianissimo, it is your job to fortify that demand. Unfortunately there are a new generation of big band trumpet players being told to view their roles as equal parts in a brass choir, devoid of intensity. If such a lead trumpet exists in your band, then the role of symbolic leader rests on your shoulders.

I would also like to briefly mention a point previously made about playing on beat one. As a band leader, if the bass player is weak I expect to hear enough beat one to keep that rhythm section from faltering, regardless of what the horn soloist is doing. In the spirit of this methodology, if the horn soloist states a particular like that is contrary to the greater good of the band, then he can take it up with me. It has been my experience that most big band musicians devote most of their hearing time listening to themselves. As the leader my perspective is more a collective gesture. This relates directly to this new "boxiness" term being bantied around by drummers to describe a big band drummer who occasionally hugs beat one to honor his role as a tutti leader, or in his previously mentioned selfless role of bass player savior.

I am aware of my status as someone who does not play your instrument. But I thought I could share another perspective than the one you were used to hearing as a group of mostly like minded individuals. I have come to the realization that some of this music forum culture tends to be driven by ego and peer pressure, when reality dictates that your sound as a drummer within the context of a large ensemble often falls on the shoulders of a non drummer who is hearing sound from a more expansive totality.

[jay norem]

No less than Phil Kelly himself saw this clip and said "Now THAT'S how you play that stuff!"

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/petererskinerhythmmethod.html

And Mattsdad: wonderful stuff you said there. Much appreciated and most worthwhile. Do you know Phil by any chance?

[The Colonel]

Ah, good ol' greypencil.