Practising with a tennis ball

[Nicotine__]

Hey there, my drumteacher thought me this, and i think it's useful. Grab a tennisball, put the snares off your snaredrum, and start bouncing. It will help you get more comfortable with the bounce of the snare, i helps you gain a little bit more speed. You can play things like this:

single stroke (one hand):
R R R R ect.
L L L L ect.
double stroke:
R R L L R R L L ect.
piramide:
R L R R L L R R R L L L R R R R L L L L R R R L L L R R L L R L
Paradiddle:
R L R R L R L L

You can also try these in triplets, make up your own idea, you can even try shuffle but that is hard if you begin.
hope someone finds it useful, at least it helps me, and i still do it everyday =)

[jazzsnob]

You do this all with sticks though and it'd be better practice.

[Quadruple Groove]

I think its meant to strengthen the wrists.

[Nicotine__]

You do this all with sticks though and it'd be better practice.

If you think sticks are better, then you just don't do it right, because it helps you strengten you wrist and understand and controll the bounce of the snare more easlier then the stick will.

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

I can see how it will strengthen your wrists, but I'm a bit confused about learning the bounce of the snare. Surely, the tennis ball will have more rebound than the sticks will, right? So to me, it seems it would be much easier to bounce tennis balls off of the snare than it would be to pull rebounds from a real stick.

Is that right? Or is it the opposite? I don't have any tennis balls around to try.

[vadrum]

when i first read this post my impression of the benefits of this exercise is to help the student get the feel of allowing the sticks to rebound off the drum, thus using a tennis ball that would have an exaggerated rebound would help in this instance. jmo tho

[Nicotine__]

of course the tennis ball will have a greater bounce, but it will help you to hit the drum more by using the bounce then by strenght, at the conservatrorium in holland all drummers practise it, it always keep you wrist smooth. If you don't think it works, then don't try it, but if you try it and you think it helps, just do it. it's as easy as that ;)

[jazzsnob]

Still, you are practicing "drums" right? All these things with a basketball or a tennis really seem to be distractions for beginner students who don't want to put the time in on a practice pad.

I understand how it can be useful as a one time example(similar to how Gladstone hung sticks from the ceiling by their fulcrum and played doubles with the tips of his fingers), but it's a waste of time to actually practice that stuff when you could practice with sticks, you should just mess around with it to get an idea of how much force you need to put in, and then think about that method and try to apply it while practicing with sticks. You should always practice with sticks more than tennis balls or basketballs or goofy grip thens and arm stretchers. Learning rebound is a muscle memory and doing the motions OVER AND OVER.

[SickRick]

I think I might use Tennis balls for my next gig. They sound great on cymbals. Just tried it out.

[jazzsnob]

Lutz, I have a slammin'' rock'n roll gig in a few weeks, but I have no bowling pins to practice with, do think you could suggest a replacement for bowling pins when practicing heavy moeller accent patterns? Maybe ping-pong paddles?

Seriously, this is enlightening. If I had only know 5 years ago that the best way to get stick control is to use crap other than sticks, I'd be a CHOP MONSTER by now!


damn

[tomgrosset]

(lol) Jazzsnob, take it easy on him man.

Look Nic, I would personally advise you to practice with sticks, because you will have a much better feeling for it and you will adjust to the point where it feels secure for you each time you practice it. I understand that everyone does their own thing, but you also have to understand that going about something differently can result to merely nothing compared to something that looks more effective and makes much more sense. There is no trick involved. It's practicing with the right tools and putting in the hard work.

Everyone has different routines. Some people practice only on rebound. Some practice only on pillows, some people do a combination and some go past the limit. I don't think this is the greatest idea but do what ever works for you.

Talk it over with your teacher and get some advice off of this forum too.

[nhzoso]

Yeah sounds like the instructor was giving you an example of rebound and how to anticipate it. Not sure he wants you to practice this for 20 minutes a day using just tennis balls but I may be wrong.

There are all kinds of little tricks people do to help them like the sticks from a ceiling thing that Snob mentioned.

A few weeks ago my instructor played a cool solo using paradiddles, 5-stroke rolls, and doubles on a bottle cap.

He told me to try it for a few minutes a day but not much longer than that to help my left hand get more consistant hitting the same spot.

I have however learned not to do it on an unopened bottle of beer because it seems I get very thirsty for the beer after about 30 seconds. : )

[Jeff Almeyda]

I've heard of tympanists bouncing balls off of the drum in order to learn what a correctly struck drum sounds like. I believe that Billy Ward mentioned it in an interview a while back.

As far as practicing with one, I'm not particularly convinced that it would help anyone except a rank beginner but I've never tried it. I'll give it an objective test on some drummers and see what happens.

[vadrum]

Lutz, I have a slammin'' rock'n roll gig in a few weeks, but I have no bowling pins to practice with, do think you could suggest a replacement for bowling pins when practicing heavy moeller accent patterns? Maybe ping-pong paddles?

Seriously, this is enlightening. If I had only know 5 years ago that the best way to get stick control is to use crap other than sticks, I'd be a CHOP MONSTER by now!


damn

dude, it must be an awful burden being keyed in to the one and only correct way to practice and play this instrument. thank you for taking the time to enlighten us all, bro.

youre all heart.

[drumminjohn]

dude, it must be an awful burden being keyed in to the one and only correct way to practice and play this instrument. thank you for taking the time to enlighten us all, bro.

youre all heart.

hahahah i thought the same thing when i read that... from the words of sly and the family stone "different strokes for different folks"

[samthebeat]

sounds like fun bouncing a tennis ball, but im not much of tennis player. Im much better at playing drums. If you want to strenghten your wrists through other activities...................... XXXXX.......its much more fun trust me. Anna Kournikova does it for me, shes a dam good tennis player to, bounce a ball she can.

[nhzoso]

sounds like fun bouncing a tennis ball, but im not much of tennis player. Im much better at playing drums. If you want to strenghten your wrists through other activities...................... xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.......its much more fun trust me. Anna Kournikova does it for me, shes a dam good tennis player to, bounce a ball she can.


WOW you lucky devil, How in the world did you get Anna to do it for you?? And can you hook me up? : )

[maddrummr]

Hmm well i tried this today...and I think im sticking with my realfeel.
It feels more effective working out on that rather than tennis balls, even though it was enjoyable for a while.

[jazzsnob]

dude, it must be an awful burden being keyed in to the one and only correct way to practice and play this instrument. thank you for taking the time to enlighten us all, bro.

youre all heart.

You're an educated drummer, I know that, I've seen your posts, but I'm confounded to hear that you can think of these kinds of "practice methods" as anything other than a distraction? Especially considering the kind of practice you suggest is very musical and sensible? I think you missed the joke. But after all, the internet is serious business, so maybe I should get off my damn high horse of being too goofy. apologies bro.


Seriously though, I've just experimented with this, just to make sure it completely is what I thought it was. It's an interesting way to look at rebound, but it would only help someone who spent a small amount of time on drums, and after that initial improvement it's simply less effective than using sticks.

I'm not trying to tell people how to play, I'm trying to shut down the immense amount of distraction a lot of drummers willingly pile on themselves. "I'm going to play matched, I'm going to switch to traditional, I'm going to switch back to matched, I'm going to play open, crossed and open again. Then I'm going to decide to practice on realfeel pads, pillows, remo pads, my knee, my thigh, my cat, a basketball, a tennis ball(I know a drummer who went through this cycle in less than a month, it's for real and it's silly) and then my own head because I could have just picked a surface and a sticking and worked on two rudiments all week and seen way more improvement. If you look objectively at questions asked to teachers, in music stores and on the internet drumming community, it could all be summed up with "suck it up, find the way you like and JUST DO IT."

I'm just talking about what I see man, sorry for hurting your feelings?

[vadrum]

You're an educated drummer, I know that, I've seen your posts, but I'm confounded to hear that you can think of these kinds of "practice methods" as anything other than a distraction? Especially considering the kind of practice you suggest is very musical and sensible? I think you missed the joke. But after all, the internet is serious business, so maybe I should get off my damn high horse of being too goofy. apologies bro.


Seriously though, I've just experimented with this, just to make sure it completely is what I thought it was. It's an interesting way to look at rebound, but it would only help someone who spent a small amount of time on drums, and after that initial improvement it's simply less effective than using sticks.

I'm not trying to tell people how to play, I'm trying to shut down the immense amount of distraction a lot of drummers willingly pile on themselves. "I'm going to play matched, I'm going to switch to traditional, I'm going to switch back to matched, I'm going to play open, crossed and open again. Then I'm going to decide to practice on realfeel pads, pillows, remo pads, my knee, my thigh, my cat, a basketball, a tennis ball(I know a drummer who went through this cycle in less than a month, it's for real and it's silly) and then my own head because I could have just picked a surface and a sticking and worked on two rudiments all week and seen way more improvement. If you look objectively at questions asked to teachers, in music stores and on the internet drumming community, it could all be summed up with "suck it up, find the way you like and JUST DO IT."

I'm just talking about what I see man, sorry for hurting your feelings?

okay fair enough, if it was a joke it was a joke. perhaps a little smiley face at the end of your post would help me realize that, because the tone of the post seemed a little harsh. you have to admit, calling that guy out and bashing his ideas can seem a little cold.

as far as me supporting this, i never came out to say that this was the best thing since sliced bread. but i dont believe that practicing this IN ADDITION to your standard run of the mill practicing could hurt. i do believe it would be MOST helpful to beginners who are having a hard time using the rebound. i know that when i was at a level when my teachers were talking about rebound and how to use it i always had questions about whether i was feeling what i should, etc. my solution was to just keep plugging away and hope for the best. his teachers solution was to bounce a tennis ball of the drum, if it helps to make the motion smooth and it gives the student a true sense of rebound then it couldnt be ALL bad right?

dude, dont get me wrong, i know you know this business of drums. ive heard the playing examples on your myspace page and ive read your posts so i dont question your ability or knowledge at all. i guess im just a little kinder when it comes to folks experimenting with learning to play drums. i know i did it. i used to practice w/ extra large sticks to improve my strength and give myself a harder "workout" when practicing, i even went so far as to use the removable bass drum "pegs" from my kit, which weighed a lot, and try to practice w/ those (just like those MA who practice kali have been known to use baseball bats during form practice to develop muscles). unfortunately, it did not do a thing except make my forearms scream in pain. my grand experiment stopped and i moved on. but i truly believe that it is possible to learn about drum technique from seemingly unrelated sources. as a matter of fact, it was the grip employed in judo that taught me a lot about how to hold the sticks (as far as matched grip goes). if the pedagogical method works to help the student truly learn the lesson at hand, why disregard it?

i have taught in my past and i recall one student i had whose father played drums for a bit in his past. at that point i gave my students options of what grip they wanted to play. i would show both matched and trad and give them a week to go home and hold the stick to see which grip felt most comfortable to them. well this student came back the next week holding both sticks trad. i kinda said "well, you may not want to go that route just for the difficulty in getting around the kit that grip would create". a week later he came back and told me he WAS going to hold the sticks that way and that he would no longer be taking lessons w/ me. instead of reading him the riot act for his decision, i smiled, shook his hand, and wished him the best of luck.

again, my reaction to your post was simply feuled by what I PERCEIVED to be a very negative attitude towards the thread starter and his idea. had i realized you were just joking, then i certainly would not have posted my reply. but, alas, things dont always translate well when expressed in 1's and 0's and i decided to jump in at their defense.

look at the stone book as an example. its not written anywhere in that book to move the exercises from your hands to your feet. granted its not a drumset book at all, it was meant for concert drummers and field drummers. further, i get the fact that moving those exercises from hands to feet is not as much of a stretch as moving to a tennis ball to improve your drumming. but, somebody, somewhere (or perhaps more than one person at given time) had to be the first guy to EXPERIMENT with that book and find a non-traditional way to use it. if the drumming community at large belittled these folks straight away and discouraged the experimentation, then who's to say we would even have drummers like tony williams or alan dawson. point is if this helps the student or students get the lesson at hand it should be regarded as a valid method of instruction. even you admitted that "It's an interesting way to look at rebound, but it would only help someone who spent a small amount of time on drums, and after that initial improvement it's simply less effective than using sticks." so therefore, i think that it should be regarded as a valid method and treated w/ respect. and just for the record i think we all agree that it is a temporary solution to a problem but not a permanent fix for hand issues.

so now that i know youre true feelings, and having read the fact that you at least tried it to see if it could at all be beneficial (my respect to you for doing so btw), i will apologize for my backhanded compliment.

[Scatman]

Why not rebound with sticks
To me this is really a silly way to waste time

[jazzsnob]

look at the stone book as an example. its not written anywhere in that book to move the exercises from your hands to your feet. granted its not a drumset book at all, it was meant for concert drummers and field drummers. fuhe first guy to EXPERIMENT with that book and find a non-traditional way to use it. if the drumming community at large belittled these folks straight away and discouraged the experimentation, then who's to say we would even have drummers like tony williams or alan dawson. point is if this helps the student or students get the lesson at hand it should be regarded as a valid method of instruction. even you admitted that "It's an interesting way to look at rebound, but it would only help someone who spent a small amount of time on drums, and after that initial improvement it's simply less effective than using sticks." so therefore, i think that it should be regarded as a valid method and treated w/ respect. and just for the record i think we all agree that it is a temporary solution to a problem but not a permanent fix for hand issues.

so now that i know youre true feelings, and having read the fact that you at least tried it to see if it could at all be beneficial (my respect to you for doing so btw), i will apologize for my backhanded compliment.

No worries man. Here's the thing about the stick control, Joe Morello and crew started screwing around with that immediately after it came out(studying with the author of the book no less) and it showed immediate improvements for everyone. If some major drummer was all like "hay guys, check it out, this tennis ball thing really works" then I would give it some more thought. But thing is, I don't think any serious drummer would give a method like this more than a passing comment, mainly because it's only note-worthy for a passing glance. You know this and I know this. You also probably realize one of the problems younger drummers have is they see some shiny practice method and think it'll give great results and then they try they "just feel like it's working" until they see something new to do. Some poor kid might see this thread and replace an hour with sticks with an hour of "balling"(tee hee). There's a drummer(a few specifically that fit this profile) on here who posts threads week by week, what grip, trad or matched, open or closed, moeller or gladstone, and they switch out constantly for a month where they could have just picked any of them and worked hard for a month and actually seen results. It's a huge problem in the community, too many good ways to practice, and I think being apologetic to ourselves about our own bad habits is bad for the art form.

But it's interesting for me too see you do judo. I did Aikido, Tae Kwon Do and boxing for a few years before I started playing and a few years into my playing(soon I was all like wtf i just wanna practice drums dogg) but if there is any type of non-drum activity that helps drumming, meditation and martial arts(especially motion/graplling based styles like judo and aikido) actually really help. First of all because you learn how to practice something RIGHT and secondly it improves your "ergonomic common sense," that's the only way I can really describe it. And before anyone says "well what famous drummer did that man?" all I gotta say is Buddy Rich, man, Buddy Rich.

So folks, if you REALLY want to practice drums without playing them, I'd strongly suggest looking into Aikido or Judo or Jui-Jitsu(sp?). Those things REALLY relate and they'll teach you to not change practice techniques every week.

And remember, everything on here is just information that people post without consequence on the internet(of course if there's any question whether this forum is good for drummers at large, it should be silenced because a smart person can get almost as much out of this forum as a decent teacher, if they know how to pick and choose) so you don't need to listen to anything I say but if you read it all I guess you have to listen to something. :)!!!!!

[jeffwj]

I often use the analogy of dribbling a basketball. I tell them that the stroke (however you wish to refer to it - natural rebounding stoke, free stroke etc...) is similar to bouncing a basketball. You put the ball in motion and the rebound brings the ball and your hand back. I don't have them dribble one since most people are already familiar with the feeling.

As I stated in another post, if a student has trouble with the moeller arm motion (the whip transferring power from the shoulder to the elbow and then the hand, ) I will have them throwh a small ball against the wall, drum or other surface. It is a similar motion. Sometimes people do funny things when there is a stick in their hand. Take the stick out and they realize the way the body works.

My thoughts
I don't see anything wrong with using analogies or alternative methods to examine the stroke. But what is learned from that examination should be utilized when you put the sticks back in your hand. And don't spend too much precious practice time without sticks, brushes or mallets in your hand.

[tamadrummer132]

iv never had experience with this, but id agree with jazzsnob, just using sticks sounds more logical.. and you build speed/timing etc while using sticks.

[morbius25]

Lutz, I have a slammin'' rock'n roll gig in a few weeks, but I have no bowling pins to practice with, do think you could suggest a replacement for bowling pins when practicing heavy moeller accent patterns? Maybe ping-pong paddles?

Seriously, this is enlightening. If I had only know 5 years ago that the best way to get stick control is to use crap other than sticks, I'd be a CHOP MONSTER by now!


damn

Wow wish I could be just like you and have it allllll figured out. Tell me that you have the meaning of life under raps. Teach me how to be like you....

[Legacyrik]

Seriously though, I've just experimented with this, just to make sure it completely is what I thought it was. It's an interesting way to look at rebound, but it would only help someone who spent a small amount of time on drums, and after that initial improvement it's simply less effective than using sticks.

and then my own head because I could have just picked a surface and a sticking and worked on two rudiments all week and seen way more improvement.

Preface: I'm just starting playing again and even when I did play I was sloppy:) No practicing rudiments, what not...

Also I'm quite sure jazzsnob can drum circles around me, at this point anyway;), and this is not an attack...


Anywho, I've been reading the forum and some things I've read from you caught my eye. Maybe it's the wisdom with age but I feel like if I knew then what I do now...

First off I would think this drill would be just as much to help feel that whipping motion with you forearm that you might use in the moller method. The one video tutorial I found on here even made reference to "throwing a ball". So perhaps this exercise could assist in finding that feeling. Having said that I do think it is a more "beginning level" exercise.

Next, just like in any other sport/hobby that requires a great deal of practice, one hurdle is always repetition and boredom. So what do they do in other activities??? They change it up! So for no other reason that to keep youself interested, I would say don't be affraid to put the sticks down and pick the ball, or whatever up, if it get's you to the set sometime you wouldn't have.

Lastly, the comment on practicing two drills for a solid week. Why? Is RLRLRL anymore important a pattern that RRLLRR? Do you need have the first down to do the second? More to the point is it actually counter productive to practice in this way? I think it is.

Once I read a comment talking about the Stick Control book for you Jazz and you mentioned how the first page was the most important and mostly drumming consists of 8th and 16th notes anyway. Well ofcourse most of your drumming would consist of that if that's what you practice! If all you ever practiced was 16th note triplets, THAT is what most of your fills would consist of. Again, is a 8th or 16th note more important than the triplet???

In summary, don't be afraid to differenciate from your normal routine, especially if you feel rundown. Sometimes you have to the opposite of what is "logical" to get where you want to be. (I'm not going to get into my practicing slow theory although it seems it would fit.. Just read that thread.. sorry)..

Anyway, no offense was meant, just honest debate.

peace!

[SickRick]

Wow wish I could be just like you and have it allllll figured out. Tell me that you have the meaning of life under raps. Teach me how to be like you....

Common man, what is that?? Let's look closer at this thread: Obviously, the suggestion, to practise with tennis balls is crap and you don't have to be a drumprofessor to realize that. It might be fun to play with tennis balls, but for practising rebound.... I don't understand why so many drummers have this whole idea of using the weirdest stuff to get better on their instrument instead of practising on their instrument itself. Hey - if you want to improve driving a car, would you consider practising in a boat or a freaking helicopter?? This phenomenon only happens to drummers - I've never heard of any other instrument players that practise on other things than on their instrument in order to improve playing their instrument. But drummers.... They use stick-weights, pillows, chairs..... and now even freaking tennis balls.

And when a guy like jazzsnob - who obviously really knows his sh*t calls out this stupidity (and does that in a very funny way also), you reply with all that harshness and in such an unpolite way.

Really, it is that simple and I tell it to all my students all the time: If you want to become a good drummer, practise playing drums. Don't practise playing the pillow or the chair or the tennis ball. Do you want to play gigs with that stuff or what?? I really believe that these strange ideas only come from unexperienced players who are not gigging regularily and who haven't realized yet, what is really important on the instrument. I don't mean to sound arrogant, harsh or something the like. It is just an observation - correct me, if I'm wrong.

[0neyellowdrum]

And when a guy like jazzsnob - who obviously really knows his sh*t calls out this stupidity (and does that in a very funny way also), you reply with all that harshness and in such an unpolite way.

Really, it is that simple and I tell it to all my students all the time: If you want to become a good drummer, practise playing drums. Don't practise playing the pillow or the chair or the tennis ball. Do you want to play gigs with that stuff or what?? I really believe that these strange ideas only come from unexperienced players who are not gigging regularily and who haven't realized yet, what is really important on the instrument. I don't mean to sound arrogant, harsh or something the like. It is just an observation - correct me, if I'm wrong.
OK, You're wrong. lol I guess you never practiced on a pad. It feels nothing like a drum but my guess is more practice time is spent on a practice pad than on drums. Toms feel nothing like a snare and have no similar rebound. If practicing on a pillow or other surface allows one to isolate a specific movement then it has merit. What kind of question is " Do you want to play gigs with that stuff or what?" It does sound arrogant and harsh. And if you haven't spent any time hitting furniture with your sticks then me thinks you have led a sheltered life:) The tennis ball thing though... dropping a tennis ball on the drum? I agree.. it would be a waste of time for me.
Steve

[SickRick]

OK, You're wrong. lol I guess you never practiced on a pad. It feels nothing like a drum but my guess is more practice time is spent on a practice pad than on drums. Toms feel nothing like a snare and have no similar rebound. If practicing on a pillow or other surface allows one to isolate a specific movement then it has merit. What kind of question is " Do you want to play gigs with that stuff or what?" It does sound arrogant and harsh. And if you haven't spent any time hitting furniture with your sticks then me thinks you have led a sheltered life:) The tennis ball thing though... dropping a tennis ball on the drum? I agree.. it would be a waste of time for me.
Steve

I've probably spent more time on a pad than you might think. But the only reason is that it is quieter than a drum and I cannot practise on a drumset all the time for that reason. If you have different reasons for using a pad your wrong. End of the story. You want to be able to play on surfaces like Toms or Cymbals or Snare Drums? Give me ONE reason why not to practise on these surfaces and use Tennis balls or pillows instead. Think about it. There is no reason.

What kind of question is that?? I'll tell you: The only question that matters. If you don't want to gig - fine. But on gigs in general, you'll be using a drumset and sticks (or rods, brushes and maybe Tala Wands, lol). You will not use Pillows, Chairs and certainly not tennis balls. The only reason I play drums are gigs. Gigs is what it is all about. Sure, I spend a lot of time practising on my own and I love that - I've spent weeks practising 12 hours+ every day. It is great to do that - but when you practise, you should practise getting better playing music because that is what will happen on gigs.

And for sure I've hit a lot of furniture. But that is because I love hitting things, not because I want to improve my drumming. You know that Thomas Lang clip on the airport? That kind of thing.

[NUTHA JASON]

If you think sticks are better, then you just don't do it right, because it helps you strengten you wrist and understand and controll the bounce of the snare more easlier then the stick will.

i've got to say i'm with sickrick and jazzsnob on this one. the tennisball thing is only a demonstration not a practice technique. the muscles used are different and those that are are being used in a different way. sitting at your computer look at your right hand right now...mime the tennis ball dribble, then mime the french, german and then american grip stroke. look at the orientation of the wrist and the fingers.

the tennis ball movement does look kind of like the first waving movements an instructor like dom might show you when demonstrating the moeller but that is where it ends. after that a stick needs to become involved. i tell my students about the dribbling thing but then i hold a stick (pinching it at the fulcrum) over a snare and get them to first dribble it from the front end by pushing down rhythmically then to try this from behind by pushing up and then they try it holding the stick themselves.

j

[vadrum]

Common man, what is that?? Let's look closer at this thread: Obviously, the suggestion, to practise with tennis balls is crap and you don't have to be a drumprofessor to realize that. It might be fun to play with tennis balls, but for practising rebound.... I don't understand why so many drummers have this whole idea of using the weirdest stuff to get better on their instrument instead of practising on their instrument itself. Hey - if you want to improve driving a car, would you consider practising in a boat or a freaking helicopter?? This phenomenon only happens to drummers - I've never heard of any other instrument players that practise on other things than on their instrument in order to improve playing their instrument. But drummers.... They use stick-weights, pillows, chairs..... and now even freaking tennis balls.

And when a guy like jazzsnob - who obviously really knows his sh*t calls out this stupidity (and does that in a very funny way also), you reply with all that harshness and in such an unpolite way.

Really, it is that simple and I tell it to all my students all the time: If you want to become a good drummer, practise playing drums. Don't practise playing the pillow or the chair or the tennis ball. Do you want to play gigs with that stuff or what?? I really believe that these strange ideas only come from unexperienced players who are not gigging regularily and who haven't realized yet, what is really important on the instrument. I don't mean to sound arrogant, harsh or something the like. It is just an observation - correct me, if I'm wrong.

dennis chambers attributes his hand speed to practicing rudiments on pillows. good enough for chambers, good enough for me.....

ps - you have been corrected.

[NUTHA JASON]

the pillow debate in the archive runs for several pages. unlike the tennis ball idea it does have some real applications...this cannot be denied. this is why some pros have endorsed it and why some pad companies are now coming out with 'dead' pillow like pads. any pillow talk must please continue on the thread. keep the balls here.

j

[Womble]

dennis chambers attributes his hand speed to practicing rudiments on pillows. good enough for chambers, good enough for me.....

ps - you have been corrected.

I started a thread on pillows vs practice pad a long time ago, and it got pretty huge. I suggest we take this argument there!

[NUTHA JASON]

i beat you to it womble :)

[vadrum]

ok, well, i posted a long reply about this thread on the shortcut thread so i will just summarize here.

- i agree that there are no short cuts to drumming greatness
- i agree that students need to be told that there are no shortcuts
- i agree that the most efficient way to practice would be w/ sticks in hand at the drums or pad
- i do not agree that practicing w/ tennis balls is a total waste of time, if it can help a young student w/ feeling how the rebound of the drum should work. and using an implement that exagerates the rebound (like a tennis ball) can certainly help w/ that, however it should not comprise all of your practice time
- i do not believe it was the intention of the thread starter to say that tennis ball practice should take over time spent w/ sticks, i believe it can be used in conjunction w/ a regular practice routine (again, as long as it doesnt take up 2 hrs of practice time)
- if you think its bunk, dont use it.....but if youre curious to see if it will help, try it.

pf students beat out fingerings on table tops all the time.

[NUTHA JASON]

- i do not agree that practicing w/ tennis balls is a total waste of time, if it can help a young student w/ feeling how the rebound of the drum should work. and using an implement that exagerates the rebound (like a tennis ball) can certainly help w/ that, however it should not comprise all of your practice time
- i do not believe it was the intention of the thread starter to say that tennis ball practice should take over time spent w/ sticks, i believe it can be used in conjunction w/ a regular practice routine (again, as long as it doesnt take up 2 hrs of practice time)
- if you think its bunk, dont use it.....but if youre curious to see if it will help, try it.


but if it is used to demonstrate as you say the feeling of the drum then why practice it. i take practice to mean to mean a long term planned activity with goals. a demonstration is a once off, with maybe with a reminder later but not something worth actually setting aside regular time to do. there is nothing to be gained from it further than the rebound point which then surely must be translated to sticks and then practiced ASAP.

[NUTHA JASON]

pf students beat out fingerings on desk tops all the time. ginger baker used tap out rudiments w/ his feet whilst away from his drums.

yes. when away from a kit sure. do anything to think drums but a tennis ball and a snare? when your sticks are near at hand? why bother with a tennisball at all.

[vadrum]

but if it is used to demonstrate as you say the feeling of the drum then why practice it. i take practice to mean to mean a long term planned activity with goals. a demonstration is a once off, with maybe with a reminder later but not something worth actually setting aside regular time to do. there is nothing to be gained from it further than the rebound point which then surely must be translated to sticks and then practiced ASAP.


why not. if it helps to get the feeling of true rebound. as mentioned b4, timpanists are no stranger to using this method to learn their instrument.

[NUTHA JASON]

i'm not disagreeing with that. but i'm saying there is a difference between bouncing a ball on a drum a few times to see how something feels (demonstration) and shceduling (sp?) time daily to practice bouncing a ball on a snare.

j

[vadrum]

i'm not disagreeing with that. but i'm saying there is a difference between bouncing a ball on a drum a few times to see how something feels (demonstration) and shceduling (sp?) time daily to practice bouncing a ball on a snare.

j


i view it as a way of focusing on 1 aspect of a techincal approach to playing drums. the particular implement provides a situation that exagerates this portion of techinque, and again, used in conjunction w/ a regminted practice routine (meaning that you are spending time practicing w/ sticks in hand) i believe that it can help to give a better understanding of how to use rebound. rumor has it billy cobham practiced single stroke rolls by playing on the rim of a glass filled w/ water, trying to get the roll so smooth that he didnt spill any water while doing so. you would probably never do that in a live situation, and the glass certainly isnt a realsitic playing surface, would this be re: as wasted practice time (given the effects it yielded)

lets do this:
give me 60 random drummers on this site. they need to have been playing rudimental drums (drumline lets say) for approx the same number of years (how bout 3 years).

have 20 stop practicing for a period of 4 - 6 weeks
have 20 practice strickly w/ sticks on a pad or drum
have 20 practice w/ sticks on a pad or drum and supplement w/ tennis ball practice for 15 mins each session

start by testing single stroke rolls for speed and endruance. say max speed for 30 secs and max speed for 2 - 3 min roll. (striving for consistency of stroke, etc.)

have them shed the aforementioned way for 4 - 6 week and come back and test them again, then let the numbers show if there's any benefit. if not, then i will happily admit i was wrong and we will all be able to put the debate to rest.

do i have 60 drummers that are game? :)

[Auger]

Ever considered a bowling ball?

Hee hee, seriously though, I think I agree with the 'demonstration' stance here to show rebound. I don't think it would be useful to do this regularly -especially if you didn't have unlimited practice time and, by doing this you were taking away from time spent practicing with sticks.

Anyway, also posted in the pillow thread on that argument.

[PBW]

I would recommend using ANY and ALL methods that work for you to achieve your goal. In order to find out what works for you, you will have to try different things out. Some will work, some won't. But the day you stop trying different things out is the day that you close yourself off to new ways of moving forward.

Just my 0.02p...

[fourstringdrums]

I think I'm more bothered that "Practising" is spelled incorrectly. Just me.

I can't believe this is so hotly debated. It should be as simple as:

1) The muscles you use in your hand/arm while bouncing a ball are different than the ones you use while using stick rebound (which I believe Nutha said already)

AND

2) Bouncing a ball off a drum and getting that rebound is not the same as finding the balance point on a stick and learning to get rebound from it.

As for playing on pillows, when you do this you're strengthing your wrist muscles and your finger muscles and learning to play more accurately without the aid of rebound.

[NUTHA JASON]

a great reply fourstrings. well summed up.
now if you wer going to make a song using a tennic ball sound then you'd best get practis/cing lol. maybe put some tennis balls on the end of sticks like mallets.

j

[vadrum]

I think I'm more bothered that "Practising" is spelled incorrectly. Just me.

I can't believe this is so hotly debated. It should be as simple as:

1) The muscles you use in your hand/arm while bouncing a ball are different than the ones you use while using stick rebound (which I believe Nutha said already)

AND

2) Bouncing a ball off a drum and getting that rebound is not the same as finding the balance point on a stick and learning to get rebound from it.

As for playing on pillows, when you do this you're strengthing your wrist muscles and your finger muscles and learning to play more accurately without the aid of rebound.


the wrist motion to bounce the ball would be the same motion used to set the stick in motion. the exagerated rebound would allow you to use these wrist strokes at a greater rate of speed and help to develop economy of motion and fluidity in motion.

these lessons could then be moved over to the sticks.

[NUTHA JASON]

i'm sorry. this is really annoying me. i've just sat down behind my kit with a tennis ball and tried bouncing it all different ways and i still cannot see how it is related to any of the stroke types (germanic etc) except a passing similarity to the moeller. maybe i'm bouncing it wrong. seems to me that what i practiced a lot was picking up the ball off the floor (lol). i just cannot agree that this skill is transferable and worth practicing. its a demo and that's all itsworth. i wouldn't use it in teaching, practice it as a drummer nor recommend it to other drummers.

j

[vadrum]

i'm sorry. this is really annoying me. i've just sat down behind my kit with a tennis ball and tried bouncing it all different ways and i still cannot see how it is related to any of the stroke types (germanic etc) except a passing similarity to the moeller. maybe i'm bouncing it wrong. seems to me that what i practiced a lot was picking up the ball off the floor (lol). i just cannot agree that this skill is transferable and worth practicing. its a demo and that's all itsworth. i wouldn't use it in teaching, practice it as a drummer nor recommend it to other drummers.

j


perhaps the reason the tennis ball is falling on the floor is because you havent spent enough time practicing w/ a tennis ball. :) (j/k)

its fine if 90% of the folks here disagree w/ it working. thats why we have public forums. i dont think this is too far a stretch for lesson supplementation....and i would not have a problem recommending it to a student that was having issues about what he/she should be feeling when using the rebound of the drum. i would not recommend it for extended practice, something they could use for a week to a month or so and then move on to using sticks full time for rebound exercises.

i also believe that younger students should feel free to experiment w/ alternative routes to learning about drums or drum technique besides the more accepted routes of practice as long as it does not get in the way of their regular practice routine. why not spend the extra time w/ sticks? okay why not, but why not try this to see if it has benefits particularly if it seems to focus their attention on an aspect of technique that they are questioning.

[wy yung]

Well I've never heard of this method before. I see no reason not to try it. If it doesn't work, I can then ditch it.

I'd like to try it using a stick to bounce the tennis ball. If my strokes are uneven or askew, the ball will shoot off to the right or left.

Is that what the teacher meant; to use sticks to bounce the ball off the head?

[Womble]

I think I'm more bothered that "Practising" is spelled incorrectly. Just me.

Sorry to stray off-topic a sec but this really interests me. American English doesn't differentiate between the verb and the noun: it's always 'practice'. In proper English ;) we do indeed spell the verb with an 's' - "I'm going to practise now". Rob, how comes you spell the English way?

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

As for playing on pillows, when you do this you're strengthing your wrist muscles and your finger muscles and learning to play more accurately without the aid of rebound.

At the risk of learning "pulling up", which is the opposite of using rebound. Not being argumentative, just a note of caution not to pillow practice too much, and not until you have a good understanding of the rebound. Your other two points are well taken. DPS

[SickRick]

dennis chambers attributes his hand speed to practicing rudiments on pillows. good enough for chambers, good enough for me.....

ps - you have been corrected.

Actually I do love Chambers and I am a big fan of his playing. But you have to realize that probably he spent soooooo much more time on drums vs. pillow that it is OK for him to do that. Hell, that guy decided to become a pro drummer when he was 6 years old. And he was already giggin regularily at that age.

And to be quite honest about his view on the pillow thing - I think he is wrong. And so do many many others. I also don't particularily like his technical aproach to the drums. If I would play like that, I'd hurt myself for sure. But it works for Dennis, so that's OK. And he said that on all the clinics I attended with him (which were a few):

"Guys, I practised on pillows and I practised without a spring on the BD-pedal. I don't read music, never did, never will. But that is just the way that I do it and must not apply to other people."
Something like that.

But as stated by Womble: Lets not discuss this here. We will never ever agree on it anyway. Like Mike Shapiro once told me, when I was still dumb enough to practise with stick weights on a pillow (which is what I did for quite some time): "Man, what the hell are you doing there?" I replied "I am working on my chops, to get faster hands". He just said: "You might have the fastest hands in the world. But if we both would audition for the same gig, I would kick your a** so hard that you would never ever be able to sit on a drumthrone again after that. And that will keep on happening until you realize that your instrumt are the drums and if you want to become a better drummer you'd better be off to practise drums. And even better if you'd started to practise MUSIC. But it is up to you, I'll be happy to have one guy less on the watchlist for drumauditions."

You know - having a guy who is probably a zillion times better than you are tell you that is kind of eye-opener. But that kind of thing doesn't work on the Internet - it has to be real life. That is probably the main reason, why so many of these arguments evolve here.

I've seen the most insane chop guys get ripped apart on stage be Mike after playing in a band that it really came to my mind that chops are just completely overrated.

[NUTHA JASON]

hehe...that's a great quote.

j

[Womble]

"You might have the fastest hands in the world. But if we both would audition for the same gig, I would kick your a** so hard that you would never ever be able to sit on a drumthrone again after that. And that will keep on happening until you realize that your instrumentt are the drums and if you want to become a better drummer you'd better be off to practise drums. And even better if you'd started to practise MUSIC. But it is up to you, I'll be happy to have one guy less on the watchlist for drumauditions."

Hahaha, love it. I wish Shapiro's knowledge and attitude could reach more people. I never had to be taken down by Mike because the only goal I ever stated at LAMA was, "I want to be able to groove like Jeff", and he approved of that. Well, apart from telling me that I should want to groove like me.

[vadrum]

i think youll get varying opinions from the pros too.

my former instructor at VCU, howard curtis, had his hands together better than anyone i have met to this day. and ive been able to study w/ some great drummers including jim chapin and justin dicciocio at MSM. he always encouraged me to use larger sticks, play on pillows, use brushes, anything to make the job a little more challenging.

now i know his name isnt anywhere as big as mike shapiro, but as i said b4, to this day i have not met anyone that can rival his knowledge of the drumset, or drums as an instrument period.

best wishes.

[fourstringdrums]

At the risk of learning "pulling up", which is the opposite of using rebound. Not being argumentative, just a note of caution not to pillow practice too much, and not until you have a good understanding of the rebound. Your other two points are well taken. DPS

No it shouldn't be done too much or you'll put strain on your muscles. I just personally agree with it for part of a practice routine so you don't really on only playing on surfaces with rebound like a pad or a snare, because that's not reality for the whole drumset.

[Legacyrik]

But on gigs in general, you'll be using a drumset and sticks (or rods, brushes and maybe Tala Wands, lol). You will not use Pillows, Chairs and certainly not tennis balls. The only reason I play drums are gigs. Gigs is what it is all about. Sure, I spend a lot of time practising on my own and I love that - I've spent weeks practising 12 hours+ every day. It is great to do that - but when you practise, you should practise getting better playing music because that is what will happen on gigs.

And for sure I've hit a lot of furniture. But that is because I love hitting things, not because I want to improve my drumming. You know that Thomas Lang clip on the airport? That kind of thing.

Seriously though, this argument about I plan on playing drums, to make music, in a band, with drumsticks so that's what you practice with... just doesn't hold up.

You look to ANY sport and PROFESSIONALS are all the time doing crazy drills, not necessarily with their equipment... Although I'm sure they play with their equipment a lot too;)

For example, take Rocky... Mick had him chasing a damn chicken... A chicken! But look what the result was.......... GREASY SPEED!

Debate over, next:)

[wy yung]

I've played on pillows for over 20 years and have never once experienced any problems resulting from this form of practice. I can't speak for others of course. I do have the benefit of a 1/4 century of martial arts experience and as a result I have a high degree of flexibility. Even so, as a fully qualified martial artist, I honestly cannot see why problems would arise from this form of practice. The wrist movement used in drumming should be a natural movement. As such, the movement itself should not cause harm. I would guess that those experiencing problems have done so through overwork without first performing an appropriate warm up followed by a warm down at the completion of practice..

There is a very good book on the subject of warm ups used for sport called Stretching scientifically. By Thomas Kurz. I have used this book ever since it was released some years ago and can highly recomend it.

http://www.stadion.com/column.html

In the old days we martial artists would warm up through static stretching and I have to say that I tore many muscles as a result. Since using this book the injuries have certainly decreased. I think drummers can also benefit from it. Aside from posting on this site today, I have done nothing but practice. That's nearly 6 solid hours on a pad. I began slowly in order to get blood into the area to be used, then while staying relaxed I played at various tempos and dynamics. I will now play on a pillow. I may do this for 2 hours before I have to teach. I don't expect any physical injury as a result of this.

At least that's my experience. I hope this lengthy post is valuable to someone.

[SickRick]

now i know his name isnt anywhere as big as mike shapiro, but as i said b4, to this day i have not met anyone that can rival his knowledge of the drumset, or drums as an instrument period.


You see - the name don't matter at all. If someone can really teach you something it doesn't matter if he is a big name or not. Like you, I've also had various teachers and some of them just had sick hands - I could put some really funny stories up here about some of them, but that would mean I had to mention some names of DW featured drummers and I don't want that. ;)

What I realized from all these guys is that everybody needs to find their own ways in technique - I use many of the same concepts like my teachers, yet, my hands look totally different.

I do encourage my students to practise with brushes, mallets and all types of sticks - big, snmall, heavy, light.... whatever. I do that myself. But I do it, because I USE this stuff when I play. I don't use Tennis Balls and Pillows though - and as said: I did practise with some really weird stuff like wights, moongel pads and so on. I just came to realize that there is no point in doing that. AND - far far more important: You might hurt yourself. I did and still suffer from that even though it happened 5 years ago.

The thing about "having your hands together" is a different issue though. Let me think: I've had at least two teachers with much better hands than Humphrey or Shapiro (who were teachers of mine as well). MUCH better indeed. And trust me: Shapiro and Humphrey have insane hands already. But I am 100% sure that both Shapiro and Humphrey would kick the butts of the other two guys in any audition for any band, even if it was Extreme Metal (which they would never audition for anyway). That is because these guys are not drummers. They are musicians. And that is something that you will never ever achieve using tennis balls.

[SickRick]

Seriously though, this argument about I plan on playing drums, to make music, in a band, with drumsticks so that's what you practice with... just doesn't hold up.

You look to ANY sport and PROFESSIONALS are all the time doing crazy drills, not necessarily with their equipment... Although I'm sure they play with their equipment a lot too;)

For example, take Rocky... Mick had him chasing a damn chicken... A chicken! But look what the result was.......... GREASY SPEED!

Debate over, next:)

I don't PLAN to do that. I do that. How about you? Got some clips?
So you are one more guy to confuse drumming with sport. Ever heard of the term "music"? Please. Grow up.

Next:)

[SickRick]

I've played on pillows for over 20 years and have never once experienced any problems resulting from this form of practice. I can't speak for others of course. I do have the benefit of a 1/4 century of martial arts experience and as a result I have a high degree of flexibility. Even so, as a fully qualified martial artist, I honestly cannot see why problems would arise from this form of practice. The wrist movement used in drumming should be a natural movement. As such, the movement itself should not cause harm. I would guess that those experiencing problems have done so through overwork without first performing an appropriate warm up followed by a warm down at the completion of practice..

There is a very good book on the subject of warm ups used for sport called Stretching scientifically. By Thomas Kurz. I have used this book ever since it was released some years ago and can highly recomend it.

http://www.stadion.com/column.html

In the old days we martial artists would warm up through static stretching and I have to say that I tore many muscles as a result. Since using this book the injuries have certainly decreased. I think drummers can also benefit from it. Aside from posting on this site today, I have done nothing but practice. That's nearly 6 solid hours on a pad. I began slowly in order to get blood into the area to be used, then while staying relaxed I played at various tempos and dynamics. I will now play on a pillow. I may do this for 2 hours before I have to teach. I don't expect any physical injury as a result of this.

At least that's my experience. I hope this lengthy post is valuable to someone.

That is a great point about stretching AND about martial arts. I am myself into martial arts so you definetly have my sympathy here. But what you said in the second to the last sentence is really important: YOU made that experience. I've done the pillow thing and seriously got hurt doing that. I think wether this works or not strongly depends on each and everybodys individual body. And I can only advice anybody, not to find out if your body (your hands) is made for that or not. Because if you'll find out that it is not made for that, it will be already too late. That is my own experience.

[Legacyrik]

I don't PLAN to do that. I do that. How about you? Got some clips?
So you are one more guy to confuse drumming with sport. Ever heard of the term "music"? Please. Grow up.

Next:)


Yeah drumming isn't a physical activity or anything like that.

How good I am really is irrelevant. People of skill levels are on both sides of this so obvously that isn't the deciding factor on who is right. What is a factor is common sense. Who the hell said this drill was for permenant practice anyway, not I. It just seems like a way to help someone get the feeling of something not natural by giving them a similar task that is more likely to be natural to them.

[wy yung]

That is a great point about stretching AND about martial arts. I am myself into martial arts so you definetly have my sympathy here. But what you said in the second to the last sentence is really important: YOU made that experience. I've done the pillow thing and seriously got hurt doing that. I think wether this works or not strongly depends on each and everybodys individual body. And I can only advice anybody, not to find out if your body (your hands) is made for that or not. Because if you'll find out that it is not made for that, it will be already too late. That is my own experience.

Oh I agree. Everyone has their own individual physicality. There's no disputing this. I do feel though that if a proper warm up is performed it does lessen the chance of injury. But even then muscles can get torn. I have pulled a hamstring whilst performing a high kick while fully warmed up. So it can and does happen. I should also point out that I personally believe certain drum techniques are dangerous. For example the very popular Moeller method. To me, as a martial artist, it is a dangerous physical movement. For example, when I was studying single and double edged sword technique, there is no way a movement like that would be tolerated. It's a muscle waiting to be torn.

That is of course only a personal viewpoint. I do know it has helped many players, including luminaries like oe Morello. ut to my eye it looks exceedingly dangerous.

We're all different I suppose.

[fourstringdrums]

Yeah drumming isn't a physical activity or anything like that.

Physical activity does always equal sport. If so, sex, brushing your teeth, eating, walking up and down the stairs, and even breathing would be considered a sport.

Drumming is physical activity but it's not a sport. Yes, you practice and "train" to get better, but for it to be a sport you'd have to do it for competition. Actually in that instance WFD COULD be considered a sport as people train for it and then compete furiously. But on it's own, drumming is not.

And btw, sex should be a sport so it can be in the olympics :D

[Legacyrik]

And btw, sex should be a sport so it can be in the olympics :D

Trust me, what I do... is althletic;)

Anyway for giggles I was just checkin out Jazzsnob's myspace... Says there the one of the song's consists of a solo on "pots and pans".... Guess you never know what you'll be hitting on these gigs;)

Heeeee Hawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[vadrum]

i think it was sturtze that wanted drumming to be included in the olympics. drumming, to me, is very atheletic. all 4 limbs moving at one time. it may not get the heart rate up too high but i would definitely be willing to call it moderately atheletic.

as a matter of fact, john riley recommends sprint training to develop one's ability to play up tempo jazz. start w/ 120 bpm and play 16 measures of time, then play 8 meas at 240 bpm. rest and repeat. interval training, just like running.

[0neyellowdrum]

Drumming is physical activity but it's not a sport. Yes, you practice and "train" to get better, but for it to be a sport you'd have to do it for competition. Actually in that instance WFD COULD be considered a sport as people train for it and then compete furiously. But on it's own, drumming is not.

And btw, sex should be a sport so it can be in the olympics :D

For those professing that there is no competition in music, I disagree.

But if we both would audition for the same gig, I would kick your a** so hard that you would never ever be able to sit on a drumthrone again after that. and

I'll be happy to have one guy less on the watchlist for drumauditions."
At every level of music I have participated it has always been a competition. Competition to get to the next chair in band or orchestra, competition in marching band even as a band to compete for honors. Is drumming sport? I don't know but I do know it is athletic and competitive.
Steve

[Auger]

I think part of the pillows Vs. Pads debate is that, behind these two practice techniques are two completely different approaches to technique. I guess I shouldn't have bothered to jump over to the other thread, haha, seems like almost no one else bothered.

Anyway, I think there's the athletic approach which builds speed and power by developing muscles. These are the people who find practicing on pillows / using very heavy sticks and that sort of thing helpful to develop speed. I think there are many successful drummers who have developed their technique this way. The other side of the coin is the form based approach -trying to develop speed by finding the best way to move your body and the sticks, not through developing or conditioning muscle. This side also has many very successful drummers who advocate it.

Like Rick, I used to be in the athletic camp and practiced on pillows / with heavy sticks, all that fun stuff. But, also like rick, In the last couple of years I've moved away from that. For me personally, this has yielded more results. I started re-evaluating a lot of my technique and practicing very differently, concentrating more on developing form and efficient motion rather than strength and power, so practice isn't like working out now, it's more like practicing a golf swing than lifting weights. ...or, I should say, like I imagine practicing a golf swing goes because I don't play golf.

One of the things that changed my mind, aside from my teacher, was the realization that the athletic approach probably wouldn't age all that well. I mean, at a certian point, we begin to physically decline. This is going to affect someone with an athletic technique much more strongly than someone with a form based technique that doesn't rely on strength. Like I said over in the pads vs pillows thread -take those joe morello vids bernhard posted. At 80+, I seriously doubt he's muscling through that stuff on the pad.

Also, and I don't want to name names for fear people will just start throwing rocks at me and miss the point, but I could name several drummers with a more athletic approach who I've seen decline pretty notably as they get older.

But, as was also stated here, none of this means anything outside of a musical context. Technique isn't good music or the ability to create it.

[SickRick]

For those professing that there is no competition in music, I disagree.


I never said there is no competition. But it is no sport. That is something completely different. And in order to succeed in the competition that you have in auditions, practising chops won't help. Practising playing music certainly will. At lest that is my experience.

[0neyellowdrum]

I never said there is no competition. But it is no sport. That is something completely different. And in order to succeed in the competition that you have in auditions, practising chops won't help. Practising playing music certainly will. At lest that is my experience.

I agree and I disagree. I agree it isn't a sport but can be sport-like in practice. Is martial-arts a sport or an art? What makes it either one? I disagree that practicing chops won't help. You said, yourself, and I have read in many a thread, the dedication to practice you endure. You even inform us that your instructor/teachers have incredible chops.
And trust me: Shapiro and Humphrey have insane hands already. Maybe for you, now, the concentration on technique isn't needed because you have developed a high state of facility and, as such, can now concentrate more on the musicality. You have both and that is always better IMO.
That they/you are musical, I agree, is most important but that they have insane hands did not occur without concentrating on technique/chops as well.
I agree practicing music will help. This is an under-statement. I think it is a must!
I agree, even more...And that is something that you will never ever achieve using tennis balls.
Steve

[jazzsnob]

Anyway for giggles I was just checkin out Jazzsnob's myspace... Says there the one of the song's consists of a solo on "pots and pans".... Guess you never know what you'll be hitting on these gigs;)

Heeeee Hawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

oh man, you got me!

Thanks for looking out for me lutz and jason and auger. It's funny that all the people on the "anti-tennis ball" camp have all posted their playing and they all have good rebound control and wrists. I'm sorry, but this whole thing is just another stupid roadside attraction on the freeway of drums. Sorry, that's the best I could come up with.

And hard work and honor equal gas in the analogy I think. I don't know.

[Auger]

OK, I have a story that just happened to me this evening that applies here.

I had a lesson tonight -it was great ...as if anyone cares haha. Anyway, one of the things I've picked up in the last year with my current teacher is what's usually referred to here as push-pull technique and, a few lessons ago, my teacher showed me how to apply it to play the signature tony williams ride cymbal pattern with that 5-note grouping. It's not a major focus and we don't usually spend time on licks or how to play specific parts, but we spent a few minutes on it just for some fun from what was nearly a three hour session.

Well, I live in a condo and, as a result of that, I have to spend much of my time practicing on pads unfortunately -which is how I practiced this particular skill exclusively: Actually, I practice this in my car while commuting. I drive a long way to work and if I could spend that time practicing in earnest with both hands, this is not something I'd be spending time on. (Note to self: make sure your next car has cruise control). Anyway, I can pull this off with a quarter note around 144 bmp on the pad no sweat. -I'm not saying this to toot my own horn and I know many can do this much faster than that, it's just part of the example ...besides, the humility part is coming :)
So he asked me show him what I'd done with this at a turning point in our session -he gets a kick out of the fact that I practice while stuck in traffic- and was pretty enthusiastic about the results I'd gotten, so he went over to a drum set, grabbed a ride cymbal and brought it over to the pad where we were sitting and said that, for him, it's actually much easier to do this on a real cymbal than on the pad ...but when I tried to play it on the cymbal I struggled. I wonder why? hahaha. but, the thing is that a pad is pretty close, and after a few minutes of messing around I was able to adjust my technique and it started to come together. but some of the more eccentric techniques probably would not be as easy to adapt. ...and then there's the bit about my teacher saying this was much easier for him on a real cymbal. probably because he'd spent so much time playing it on one.

We also had a great discussion about the value that all the effort spent learning technique is perhaps most valuable not for the sake of learning the technique itself, but that it lets you put technique in perspective -along the lines of what Lutz was saying. When you have no technique, seeing someone with great technique is dazzling and you might mistake that technique itself for art. Going through all the work of learning technique shows you that technique itself is not really an end goal and that, on its own, is really nothing all that special. The irony is that, you have to put in all that work to learn that what you're working for isn't really the goal, but until you do that, it can be hard to think otherwise. ...but some people just get this without having to go through the struggle and some never do figure it out and that's why there are some great, great drummers who have little technique, and some guys with tons of technique who I'd say aren't really anything noteworthy. At least, that's just my thinking.

Alright, I'm beat. good night peoples.

[k3ng]

Let me say this.

There is no one universal practice route that you can take (Tennis balls pillows whatever) that will work for every drummer EXCEPT practising on drums with your drumsticks.

Sure it'll work out for some or another, but that doesn't mean it's a guarantee that it'll work for you. Maybe someone did that exercise for 20 years and improved say 50%(just for numbers sake). You might be able to do that as well, but let's say you do that and you don't improve at all? Perhaps if you had practised on your drums you might have improved maybe 35%? Wouldn't that be better than nothing at all?

Seriously, there isn't a universal thing that'll work for everyone. It might work for you, but why take the risk? I'd much rather spend my time doing something that I'm sure will bring benefits rather than trying some new an revolutionary practise method that has worked out for SOME drummers.

Just what I think.

[cwignall]

does that mean that practicing on a pillow will not make you anybetter because theres no rebound?

seems that the tennis ball is, as has been said, a demonstration of the theory of rebound. if you practice that you will get very good at bouncing balls of a drum!

but spending time studying the motions and response of your body and the ball will give you an idea exagerated (sp?) of what to expect when an object hits a skin!