losing volume without losing chops.

[tamadrummer132]

we recently got a new worship leader at my church, and i apparently i play too loud. i want to be able to still add cool fills and do speedy stuff on the hi-hat and ride, but how can i practice that without blowing the ears off the old ladies in the church?

any suggestions of excercises i can do?

[jazzsnob]

Practice playing quietly? What else would you do?

[tamadrummer132]

but its like i cant get the speed without blowing the ears offa everyone... im so used to playing in my room, and not worrying bout the amount of noise, that when i play live im too loud. its not that simple......

[jazzsnob]

It absolutely is that simple. If you spend all of your practice time playing loudly, you will only be able to play loudly. If someone who never practices double bass gets on stage with band and does a bad job of it, you'd probably go, "oh, they don't practice double bass at all."

It's about playing what's called for, if you need to play double bass, you practice it. If you need to play quietly, practice. Practice whatever "chops" stuff you want, but practice quietly. I know it seems easier to motivate yourself if there's some "special quiet technique" but it just doesn't work like that.

[Latin Groover]

Absolutely right. A great to start is just doing straight 16ths as low aand quiet as you can, if you feel like you cant get them even and your speeding up and slowing down which does

happen when you first try to play low and soft, as you said, "you lose chops", then do 1 bar of 8ths then a bar of 16ths and repeat. You just need to slow things down. Being able to play

low and fast with control is not going to come easy and quick, so dont try to go quick. Just slow everything down, and just practice singles, doubles and parradidlles, all low and soft as

you can for at least 5mins each, but as you said you need to really work on this so do alot more work. Go so slow so that you can focus on each stroke, say for the parradiddles start

at like 120 1/4 notes, so each stroke is a 1/4 note, you just need to take it slow, stay loose ,relaxed and low and after 1 week, trust me, you will feel your improovement.

[sloppyn9ne]

techniquelly speaking, you dont loose chops "muscle mass" by playing quitly.

now that im done being a jerk ;)

diddles are usually easier to play dynamics with. playing with 7a's might help too.

[drummerchick435]

Instead of playing with sticks buy a pair of rods. They may not sound as good as sticks but no one else in the audience will care or notice.

[jazzsnob]

"Oh hay, you can't play well quietly? Well, get rods or smaller sticks and your problems are solved!"

Bad advice. Every drummer should be able to play quietly with sticks. It's hard work, but who really thinks you can do well with drums without hard work?


Oh wait, a lot of people.

[dizkneelande]

It absolutely is that simple. If you spend all of your practice time playing loudly, you will only be able to play loudly. If someone who never practices double bass gets on stage with band and does a bad job of it, you'd probably go, "oh, they don't practice double bass at all."

It's about playing what's called for, if you need to play double bass, you practice it. If you need to play quietly, practice. Practice whatever "chops" stuff you want, but practice quietly. I know it seems easier to motivate yourself if there's some "special quiet technique" but it just doesn't work like that.

as jazzsnob said it's absolutely that simple. practice playing quietly and with a loop track or click is you wanna work it up to speed.

[drozzy]

Play with brushes, hot-rods or chopsticks!

[Latin Groover]

Play with brushes, hot-rods or chopsticks!

?????

"Oh hay, you can't play well quietly? Well, get rods or smaller sticks and your problems are solved!"

Bad advice. Every drummer should be able to play quietly with sticks.

123456789012345

[drozzy]

It's a quick fix.

And plus the sound of rutes/rods is very cool.

[NUTHA JASON]

i agree with this. in my smaller gigs (just me and a guitarist) we still play some high energy songs that are very hard to play softly. dire straits sultans of swing is one that is particularly hard to play lightly. so i got some vic firth tala wands as suggested and demonstrated by steve smith.
http://www.adcdrums.co.uk/uploads/images_products_large/643.jpg

they stil bounce and feel pretty much like sticks but with only a quarter of the volume. they only draw back is that if you want to crash you have to use the black band section and it takes a bit of practice to learn to control the crash volume so that it doesn't boom over the dynamics of the rest of the kit nor undercrash in near silence.

j

[The.GuessWho]

i agree with this. in my smaller gigs (just me and a guitarist) we still play some high energy songs that are very hard to play softly. dire straits sultans of swing is one that is particularly hard to play lightly. so i got some vic firth tala wands as suggested and demonstrated by steve smith.
http://www.adcdrums.co.uk/uploads/images_products_large/643.jpg

they stil bounce and feel pretty much like sticks but with only a quarter of the volume. they only draw back is that if you want to crash you have to use the black band section and it takes a bit of practice to learn to control the crash volume so that it doesn't boom over the dynamics of the rest of the kit nor undercrash in near silence.

j

So what?
Two of the greatest masters of the drumset I can think of (Elvin Jones and Tony Williams) were all about dynamic control. They wouldn't think about the volume first when it came to choosing sticks/brushes/whatever, but about the colour they wanted to have.
Why should it be any different today?

[jazzgregg]

So what?
Two of the greatest masters of the drumset I can think of (Elvin Jones and Tony Williams) were able about dynamic control. They wouldn't think about the volume first when it came to choosing sticks/brushes/whatever, but about the colour they wanted to have.
Why should it be any different today?

Harsh as it may sound, I have to agree. I can't count the number of rock guys that have opted for this route, I think it actually started with the whole MTV unplugged thing. The key really is, when you want the sound of sticks, only quieter, use sticks, but learn how to play quieter. Nothing against you in particular J, but I think this is a total copout when it comes to reducing volume. On the other hand, if you WANT the sound you get from those things (I have some too), cool, but to use them as a low volume alternative to sticks is weak. My advice then, is play quieter, it really is that simple.

G

[Womble]

Why should it be any different today?

It shouldn't, but people are lazy these days, and mediocrity is accepted. More than accepted, actually, it's praised.

If you need to play quietly but you really can't keep a beat together yet at low volume, then sure, use the different implements that have been suggested. In your own time, practise the hell out of playing quietly with sticks, and as soon as you've got it comfortable, ditch the crutches and play quietly with sticks in front of an audience. By comfortable I do not mean being able to execute loads of Dennis Chambers fancy hi-hat/ride stuff; I mean being able to lay down the basic, solid beat that is required of you. Drumming should not be an ego trip. Besides, you will be amazed at the control you will gain from practising quietly, and it will benefit you in many ways. If you really want to challenge yourself, practise playing as quietly as possibly at a really slow tempo. Frustrating, but so rewarding.

[spw]

This thread really hits home for me.

One of my practice routines is to set my met to 60-70 BPM (quarter notes), then play eights and sixteens QUIETLY around my kit. Man is it hard, I have been playing less than 6 months, so i thought it was just me, to see that more experienced players have trouble doing this sort of relieves me a tad.
I really TRY to concentrate on volumn level and smoothnes, i try to get it to sound perfect (of course not even close).

On Steve Smith's DVD he does workouts like this, then i saw one of Tony Williams vids (from here) and i was complelely blown away by his ability to play quietly, in fact i oredered the dvd just to watch him more.

[tamadrummer132]

when my drum teacher first showed me paradiddles, it was all i played. i played with my hands on my pillow before i went to bed, on everything it was always paradiddles. i can FLY through my kit with paradiddles, but with simple left right left right it seems harder for me to get the speed.....lol

but ill try your suggestions and work on building speed without building volume

[Womble]

One of my practice routines is to set my met to 60-70 BPM (quarter notes), then play eights and sixteens QUIETLY around my kit. Man is it hard, I have been playing less than 6 months, so i thought it was just me, to see that more experienced players have trouble doing this sort of relieves me a tad

It's extremely admirable for someone who's only been playing 6 months to practise like that. Some people go through their entire drumming lives just smashing things as hard as they can. Give yourself a pat on the back!

i saw one of Tony Williams vids (from here) and i was complelely blown away by his ability to play quietly, in fact i oredered the dvd just to watch him more.

Tony Williams was terrifying. You might want to pick up (if you don't already, of course) Miles Davis at the Plugged Nickel. It's expensive but well worth it. Tony swings like an absolute monster at scary tempos and low volume. It's so intense.

[NUTHA JASON]

So what?
Two of the greatest masters of the drumset I can think of (Elvin Jones and Tony Williams) were all about dynamic control. They wouldn't think about the volume first when it came to choosing sticks/brushes/whatever, but about the colour they wanted to have.
Why should it be any different today?

well. first steve smith suggested the wands for precisely this use. second i would love to see you play something like sultans of swing with the speed and flair needed but at accoustic guitar volume. third this is a part of my job...now...today... i cannot wait until i have the skill of elvin (lol...perhaps never) to do the job of the moment. i need to be able to play soft tonight so the tala wands will do the job and no shame to me.

j

[jazzgregg]

well. first steve smith suggested the wands for precisely this use. second i would love to see you play something like sultans of swing with the speed and flair needed but at accoustic guitar volume. third this is a part of my job...now...today... i cannot wait until i have the skill of elvin (lol...perhaps never) to do the job of the moment. i need to be able to play soft tonight so the tala wands will do the job and no shame to me.

j

Whoa, take it easy there J, no need to get so defensive!

I don't thnk TGW was specifically addressing that to you, only that using those things are an excuse for many not to learn to play lightly at all. Just as an aside, I've heard TGW play stuff more intense than a Dire Straits tune at low volumes (an acoustic bass is quieter than an acoustic guitar being strummed), though I'm not certain why you felt the need to attack/question his ability personally.

G

[NUTHA JASON]

well the 'so what' was pretty abrupt. so who did what first. i was just giving my suggested alternative to the problem posted in the thread. besides my response wasn't defensive . it was just a response. (i think its you that may be a bit too sensitive... the 'lol' should have been a clue to you that i was light hearted while posting and not bitter)
if these wnads are good enough for steve smith and work when i use them then they are good for me and i will quite rightly suggest them on this forum. let that be an end of it.
back to the topic please.

j

[jazzgregg]

well the 'so what' was pretty abrupt. so who did what first. i was just giving my suggested alternative to the problem posted in the thread. besides my response wasn't defensive . it was just a response. (i think its you that may be a bit too sensitive... the 'lol' should have been a clue to you that i was light hearted while posting and not bitter)
if these wnads are good enough for steve smith and work when i use them then they are good for me and i will quite rightly suggest them on this forum. let that be an end of it.
back to the topic please.

j

Yes, I do believe that IS the topic, as in, how to reduce volume without losing chops. Mine, and TGW's suggestions are learn to play quieter with more control rather than substituting a completely different sound because one can't play like that. If that is not on topic, I will eat my shoe.

On the other hand, to be fair, I certainly took your 'I will never be as good as Elvin' as a lighthearted joke, don't worry. Excuse me if I felt that calling in to question someone else's ability for credibility was not neccesary.

Lastly, Steve Smith can burn quietly, make no mistake about that. Therefore, as per our observations, were he to use (not advocate, as you say) these routes or whatever, it would be an artistic decision which is all I'm asking for. I get pretty tired of seeing 'unplugged' bands shredding perfectly good dowls of wood in the name of volume, still playing just as hard, with different implements.

I will restate my on topic point, and TGW's and it was something jazzsnob suggested in post 2- learn to play quitley with sticks, if that's the sound you want.

G

[mind_drummer]

I agree with jazzgregg and TGW about learning how to play with the dynamic but I think the thread starter need to get a solution fast and this where the rute - tala etc... is the faster answer to his problem. Then he will have the time to practice his dynamic and low volume playing which he will be able to use (with sticks) later at the church.

[Drad-dog]

I have been saying this for years as well. Hot Rods and such are cop-out alternatives to actually learning to play well at low volumes. But some dudes use them to good effect like Adam Topol- they sound good when he does his thing. At least it sounds like he's using rods to me. They are a softer, more delicate sound than sticks. If that's what your after, use 'em. If you're a metal head playing in a coffee shop, they are still usefull in a practical sense but make no mistake: a coffee house situation does not require the soft, delicate sound of rods, it requires playing quieter. You can do it with the rods and sacrifice the sound of sticks, or do it with technique and be a more versatile, dynamically sensitive player. As an aside, if you're going to use some kind of rod, the Talawands are the best I've seen.

Example: cymbal sound is EVERYTHING to me. If I'm playing a jazz gig and the ride is not my thing I just hate it. I would also never be caught dead using wands or rods on my cymbals- sounds different. Not good. Last night I played a Jazz gig where the nearest table was litterally an arm length from my ride. I was able to play quietly enough that the people there could still talk and I didn't have to sacrifice my ride sound to do it. I did have to sacrifice dynamics (quiet only being ONE SIDE of dynamics; loud is dynamics too) but that is for another thread, maybe.

I like what Jazzsnob said early on in this thread: practice playing quietly, it really is that simple. On the other hand, if you've gotta' do it to get along, like what Jason said about not having the ability but needing to perform on the gig, go get Talawands and use 'em. No one will complain, probably. But I like being one of the few drummers in my area who can play quietly. To other players it means you *listen* better than the guys who play too loud. Everyone is appreciative of that!

[Drummer Karl]

we recently got a new worship leader at my church, and i apparently i play too loud. i want to be able to still add cool fills and do speedy stuff on the hi-hat and ride, but how can i practice that without blowing the ears off the old ladies in the church?

any suggestions of excercises i can do?

Well, that is actually just a thing of dynamics. Dynamics are important for drummers and musicians in general. And it`s control. Stick Control and Balance on the set. One thing I can recommend (what Jazzsnob also said) is to practice ALSO calm, try to develope your balance. that means to play quiet and controlled, with your body AND in your head. Before practicing, maybe a minute before, speak calmer, more "careful" and also count calmer BUT count exact and short.
Yeah, this might sound kinda stupid or so but I think that is really important because also drumming begins in head (and of course in heart). and goes into body...

There are so many good excercices which you can practice calm to improve your dynamics and balance. One classical idea would be Stick Contro/rudiments. Just take them and play them unaccented very calm, almost like ghost notes. Then try to play with crescendos and decrescendos., so play for example doubles in pianissimo, get louder, till you reach Fortissimo, and then get calmer again. This was already a pretty extreme example, the most extreme dynamic thing with crescendos and decrescendos would be from Piano Pianissimo (ppp) to Forte Fortissimo (fff) and vice versa.

Just practice those things...keep it up mate, you can do it! ;-)

Karl

[brittc89]

Can I just add something? Ive never really heard steve smith use the tala wands for anything other than the wacky indian stuff.

[zambizzi]

I agree on the dynamics comments entirely.

I practice rudiments for 1-2 hrs. everyday. I force myself to use dynamics and tempo changes once I've warmed up and settled into a nice groove so that I'm never "too comfortable" and I'm always aware of how hard I'm hitting the drums.

Try to pay more attention to the space between the tip of your sticks and the drum head...not so much how far back your're pulling...and how hard you're wailing on the heads.

Once you've gotten into a groove where you're using dynamics and changing the volume (musically) while practicing...try throwing in random accents. Use those lead hands you have now...but strictly for accents.

I don't see how you could have achieved a decent understanding of accenting if you're always smashing the heads?

[bigbang]

I grew up in a house with 8 other people living there , so I had to practice quietly or get the "boot" off the drums.
Looking back I'm glad it did happen ; it really forces dynamics upon your playing, something that is often overlooked by alot of today's young drummers ( and older drummers for that matter).
The pro-mark hot rods were, I believe, the first of these creatures out and they were intended to add different color to playing, not a quiet alternative , although it soon became apparent that one could play quietly with them.
Having said that I believe in using whatever means possible to achieve your final goal.
Using the dowel things right now will help you ,UNTIL your able to get your playing down to an acceptable level for the gig.
In other words ....do what you can to keep the gig.

[NUTHA JASON]

Having said that I believe in using whatever means possible to achieve your final goal.
Using the dowel things right now will help you ,UNTIL your able to get your playing down to an acceptable level for the gig.

great. this was my point. i cannot afford to spend ten years getting to the point of having a great time and great feel at exceptionally low (and i mean very very low- because i can play very low on drums with sticks - i was a church drummer for three years) volumes. of course i think drummers should aim to play with feel at all volume levels but when the gig is tonight you cannot show up and do a crap job with sticks because you are only on year 3 of your ten year journey to elvinhood. the gig, the job, the music comes before pride in technical skills. and the tala wands do the job well for me. that said, they take a bit of skill to use too.

j

[jazzgregg]

great. this was my point. i cannot afford to spend ten years getting to the point of having a great time and great feel at exceptionally low (and i mean very very low- because i can play very low on drums with sticks - i was a church drummer for three years) volumes. of course i think drummers should aim to play with feel at all volume levels but when the gig is tonight you cannot show up and do a crap job with sticks because you are only on year 3 of your ten year journey to elvinhood. the gig, the job, the music comes before pride in technical skills. and the tala wands do the job well for me. that said, they take a bit of skill to use too.

j

I guess I didn't see you that qualification in your initial post. The thing about the gig being more important than everything else is true, which is exactly why I wonder why people would sacrifice the sound of sticks for wands, thereby changing the sound and colour of the tune- THAT'S putting technique ahead of the gig, in other words, the musician needs to substitute something/change something that effects the gig because of his technique. I'm also glad to know that Elvinhood only takes 10 years, I just with someone had told me when I passed it.=)

Just clearing that up-that's what makes sense to me.

G

[NUTHA JASON]

nah ... 10 years is just wishful thinking of mine. perhaps elvinhood only belongs to one man and he sadly passed away recently.

but back to the debate it really comes down to the lesser of two evils. sound over feel or vice versa. i believe that the wands don't have a stick sound but also are not annoying or detracting in of themselves. i'll admit that they particularly don't work well on my ride which is a heavy 22'' so it takes a bit of effort to get even a sufficient articulartion while keeping the wash down. that said when i do use them on songs like sultans of swing which has quite flamboyant exciting drumming i am able to capture that live spirit that first turned me on to the song. occasionally at a gig i will play it with the sticks or even with a wand in my left hand and a stick in my right to get the essential silvery ride sound of the original song but for me the feel of the song supercedes (spelling?) the sound particularly in the gig environment i'm playing in (low volume duo gig in a fairly drunken pub on a sunday night with a handful of dancers) for the dancers the pulse and feel of my drumming is far more important then the subtle differnce between the wand and the stick.

j

[jazzgregg]

nah ... 10 years is just wishful thinking of mine. perhaps elvinhood only belongs to one man and he sadly passed away recently.

but back to the debate it really comes down to the lesser of two evils. sound over feel or vice versa. i believe that the wands don't have a stick sound but also are not annoying or detracting in of themselves. i'll admit that they particularly don't work well on my ride which is a heavy 22'' so it takes a bit of effort to get even a sufficient articulartion while keeping the wash down. that said when i do use them on songs like sultans of swing which has quite flamboyant exciting drumming i am able to capture that live spirit that first turned me on to the song. occasionally at a gig i will play it with the sticks or even with a wand in my left hand and a stick in my right to get the essential silvery ride sound of the original song but for me the feel of the song supercedes (spelling?) the sound particularly in the gig environment i'm playing in (low volume duo gig in a fairly drunken pub on a sunday night with a handful of dancers) for the dancers the pulse and feel of my drumming is far more important then the subtle differnce between the wand and the stick.

j


I guess I'm just not one of those people who feels it's ok to choose between 'the lesser of two evils' when it comes to music. I think it's a copout no matter how you want to put it, but that's just me and my philosophy on music. Music is art, you should never 'have to choose', as I said in my earlier post. Nevertheless, I can't see this debate going anywhere, so I'll just have that said and that's it.

G

[Johnest]

Originaly on the Vic Firth site: The Steve Smith Tala Wands were conceived when Steve began playing with drummers from India and needed a way to blend with their sounds and be sensitive to lower volume levels. The result: two unique and tremendous additions to the Vic Firth line of Rute and brushes. Tala Wands feel great and naturally help to play softer – in all settings!
:TW11: Bamboo - A foam center is surrounded with bamboo dowels wrapped in thin PVC. Great balance and rebound, while naturally producing a lower volume.
L = 15 15/16”, Dia. = .585
:Birch - A foam center is surrounded with birch dowels wrapped in thin PVC. Outstanding rebound and sound. While the shaft is thicker than the TW11, the lighter weight of the birch dowels actually helps create a lighter touch and lower volume. L = 16 1/8”, Dia. =.625”

Help play softer... Lower volume... lighter touch... That's the goal no?

[jazzgregg]

Originaly on the Vic Firth site: The Steve Smith Tala Wands were conceived when Steve began playing with drummers from India and needed a way to blend with their sounds and be sensitive to lower volume levels. The result: two unique and tremendous additions to the Vic Firth line of Rute and brushes. Tala Wands feel great and naturally help to play softer – in all settings!
:TW11: Bamboo - A foam center is surrounded with bamboo dowels wrapped in thin PVC. Great balance and rebound, while naturally producing a lower volume.
L = 15 15/16”, Dia. = .585
:Birch - A foam center is surrounded with birch dowels wrapped in thin PVC. Outstanding rebound and sound. While the shaft is thicker than the TW11, the lighter weight of the birch dowels actually helps create a lighter touch and lower volume. L = 16 1/8”, Dia. =.625”

Help play softer... Lower volume... lighter touch... That's the goal no?

I read that as the goal, that's pretty clear, considering Steve can play anything at any volume, I'd guess. Think of the difference between harsh sticks and magic wands or whatever they're called when it comes to accompanying centuries old acoustic instruments.

It isn't about whether they will or will not be quieter (of course they will), it's about why you use them, as an artistic choice or a copout. Trust me, Smith ain't copping out.

G

[NUTHA JASON]

and there we have it. music for me is art but also very much my job. if i choose to indulge in my artistic ideals at the detriment to the gig then i have failed at my job and risk losing it. that said, i work continuously on my art but not so much at gigs than at home where the improvements and gains eventually find their way into the live situation.
i think cop out is a bit strong. its is more of a solution albeit a temporary one to a need that must be met even if at the expense of artistic refinement. that also said, i value the feel of drumming above the sound of the drums (to a certain degree of course) particularly in pop and rock where the idea is to move the audience rather than wow them. jazz i know is much more about the colour and the sound or perhaps much more of a balance between the feel and the sound. it is concievable for instance to play rock on a jazz kit but no so much to play jazz on a kit specifically set up for rock (ie a megabell ride and a 7'' deep snare) tho i know it can be done by a ... dare i say it ... master.

j

[bigbang]

Hey Gregg,
I agree with what your saying totally , you want guys to have proper technique and control over their instrument , and let's face it that is the ultimate goal for all serious musicians.
However not everyone comes " out of the gate " with such abilities.It just seems your asking alot from somebody that may or may not have years of experience practicing different techniques and musicallity.
I'm with you dude , there is no substitute for proper abilities but I really believe this will help him until he can get his volume down.Sort of a band-aid ,if you will.

cheers

[fat in the middle]

I too am a quiet drummer [and loud], and one suggestion i have for getting the quiet chops in order [with sticks] is practice with an acoustic guitar player,,no amps,,i did that for years because of noise restraints, and it helped in the long run.,,,one other point i would like to add is; our volume levels we play at are often influenced by the other musicians levels., and if you have a bass player beside you that plays loud, then that will affect your dynamics,[ever had a crappy monitor mix],but as drummers we are mixing boards on a stool, and we have the full spectrum of frequencies to deal with, which is hard in a church! bassist,not so much..tune to the room!
The whole hot rod issue is interesting,,i played pubs for 2 years with 'blastics', and developed a new technique with them, but had to practice on the pad with sticks during the day to keep up the 'bounce',,i started relying too much on the blasticks, but i got some interesting sounds you can't get with sticks or brushes. bottomline is; our stick bag is a tool bag, and the music, the room, the players, and the songs will tell ya what to do. Ever look in a finishing carpenters tool box? lots of neat things to work with. I like to think of sticks as the main hammer. I would hate for traditional thinking to get in the way of creativity. We are evolving,,but,,rudiments rudiments rudiments......!

www.paulclifford.moonfruit.com

[tomgrosset]

Listen to the other musicians and try and understand one another. Play what suits the music and you’ll be able to contribute a lot more without standing out.

In order to do this, you must maintain that light touch and to play with feeling when it is required for the music… Karl is prominent for stating this. It’s also important to have a powerful strike in your playing so you can maintain a loud sound and to put emphasis in the composition. Tony Williams is a good example. Tony used to play loud, because he had a great deal of power, but he had strokes that were implemented so delicately as well. A musician needs to have good technique so you can have control of the dynamic range in your performance.

[secondXheartbeat]

One of the hardest things about drumming is playing technically challenging stuff at low levels. If you can master this, it can really separate you from the pack. Everyone is used to seeing drummers bash around the kit, but if you can show sensitivity and control in your playing you'll be raised up another level.

[jazzgregg]

and there we have it. music for me is art but also very much my job. if i choose to indulge in my artistic ideals at the detriment to the gig then i have failed at my job and risk losing it. that said, i work continuously on my art but not so much at gigs than at home where the improvements and gains eventually find their way into the live situation.
i think cop out is a bit strong. its is more of a solution albeit a temporary one to a need that must be met even if at the expense of artistic refinement. that also said, i value the feel of drumming above the sound of the drums (to a certain degree of course) particularly in pop and rock where the idea is to move the audience rather than wow them. jazz i know is much more about the colour and the sound or perhaps much more of a balance between the feel and the sound. it is concievable for instance to play rock on a jazz kit but no so much to play jazz on a kit specifically set up for rock (ie a megabell ride and a 7'' deep snare) tho i know it can be done by a ... dare i say it ... master.

j

You have a very strange view of art.

Also, you may think copout is a bit strong, but it isn't at all. I have repeatedly said, you are obstructing art when you use something for a purpose other than contributing to said art. The solution to your car troubles is not to buy a bike, you know?

Jazz is about music (and I did NOT bring this up). Jazz musicians don't really spend alot of time talking about stuff like this with each other because as musicians, it is a given. How you make that music is secondary to the music itself, this is what it means when 'music comes first'. The way I see it, rather than not going anyplace because I value the feel of sitting still, I would try to work on my comfort and skill in going places. And you know what, maybe that's what you want and that's cool. I was just trying to prevent another generation from thinking that 'quiet drumming' is a synonym for 'hot rods/blaststicks/wands'.

BigBang- yeah, I hear you and a band aid it is, but like I said, how many people ACTUALLY learn to play dynamically? This is why when I see them used as a 'volume substitute' rather than a sound choice, it's neccesary to make this point, I think.

Tom and SecondX have some good points as well. It is true, anyone can bash on a drumset, it takes real skill to not do that.
G

[murphinelli]

we recently got a new worship leader at my church, and i apparently i play too loud. i want to be able to still add cool fills and do speedy stuff on the hi-hat and ride, but how can i practice that without blowing the ears off the old ladies in the church?

any suggestions of excercises i can do?

i too play in church. most of it calls for quite play depending on the song, number of singers, number of other musicians. i use everything in the bag to try to make something interesting/artistic for the various songs at a low volume. i used to use 5A nylon sticks and have since moved all the way down to a light jazz stick. i use brushes a lot. i rarely use the hot rods because they sound like crap on both the cymbals and drums. they do work with some songs, but very few...i also use mallots to get some interesting tom and cymbal sounds.

the music we play does not lend itself to much in the way of cool fills and super speedy stuff...i am primarily there to keep a steady beat and support the singers. adding in flashy/cool fills does not support the singers very much. the more experienced singers will not have a problem...the less experienced really need the basic steady beat.

i agree with the suggestions of practicing quitely/calmly with sticks. i also agree/recommend using whatever you feel supports the music in an artistic way. for me it's more about keeping things interesting with the various sounds you can get vs. only using sticks at a low volume.

[cnw60]

Interesting discussion here. Pragmatists vs purists...

another observation I might add to the original post - if someone comments that you're playing too loud - it means you are standing out, but not in a good way, and not even necessarily that you are really too loud. Good feel is more than just dynamics, perhaps trying to be 'interesting' means that you're actually being too busy and losing the groove. You have to ask yourself whether the tricky stuff actually enhances the song (or the worship service in general) or is it really just about your ego???

I also find it interesting that nobody's even mentioned the feet - controlling dynamics on the pedal(s) can be more of a challenge than doing it with the sticks, and it does little good to play softly with sticks, brushes or rods and then have the bass drum BOOMING away underneath it all.

Practicing different dynamic levels is for me is pretty easy - when my wife is home, I practice quiet, when she's not, I practice loud ;-)

(and ten years to Elvin-hood - sign me up for that program.... can I do it as a correspondence course???)

[Womble]

(and ten years to Elvin-hood - sign me up for that program.... can I do it as a correspondence course???)

Save your money. I hear it's a complete con.

[dizkneelande]

So what?
Two of the greatest masters of the drumset I can think of (Elvin Jones and Tony Williams) were all about dynamic control. They wouldn't think about the volume first when it came to choosing sticks/brushes/whatever, but about the colour they wanted to have.
Why should it be any different today?

well because nobody i know can play like elvin or tony. you gotta realize that the guys trying to do good for his gig and playing with tala wands is easier to keep volume under control with. im not saying he shouldnt practice playing quietly or with dynamics because dynamics is half of what we have. i totally see your pov tho, i agree that he shouldnt use it as a crutch b/c thats useless but if it helps him keep the band happy what else is there to say?

[NUTHA JASON]

to womble:
yep i bet there will be a 'elvin hood secrets' DVD coming out by a certain well debated character who knows a lot of secrets about single handed rolls and bass techniques.



to greg
You have a very strange view of art.


that is your opinion greg but it is clear that you still don't understand me, or more likely are choosing not to. to make it clear to you...

A) while i accept that tala wands don't sound like sticks, they also don't sound so drastically NOT like sticks that my choice to use them is detrimental to the song/music/art.

B) when i look at the art side of my drumming i look at my ability to express. the feel of the song is already there as i have played it countless times so the expression in terms of feeling is wellcovered by me but my weakness is playing the song with the same expression but softly. this is then a target i work on at home ... a side of the art i need to work on. BUT at the gigs NOW, greg, this weekend, i need to play with the feel and rather than sounding unsure by breaking out a dynamics chop that is still very much a work in progress i choose to use a solution designed for the purpose.

C) which leads me to the design. Steve smith worked on these for playing along to the tabla on a drumkit. he told me they were designed to feel close to sticks (similar bounce etc), sound close to sticks but at a lower volume. maybe you know better than him.

you are obstructing art when you use something for a purpose other than contributing to said art

from my point of view the groove is the art ...certainly the greater part of it than the miniscule difference in sound between a tala wand and a stick. i am clearly not obstructing the art. in fact i would be obstructing it if i forced myself to play the song with sticks softly and was unsure and stiff because i wasn't ready to play at those levels with sticks. a selfish stubborn attitude that would be. i'm part of a team and feel no shame breaking out the wands to make music happen rather than live practice.

D) once again it does take skill to use the wands in of themselves and i do use them to create a little bit of variety in my quiet gigs. i only use them in about 5 or 6 songs out of the whole gig anyway. funnily enough i play all the greenday songs with sticks. but the direstraits and reef and even some beatles i play with the wands. but every gig is different anyway. sometimes the wands stay in the bag if the crowd is rowdy.


I was just trying to prevent another generation from thinking that 'quiet drumming' is a synonym for 'hot rods/blaststicks/wands'.


good. we agree on that. but i think a lot of the 'generation' needs more credit than you give them. by the time they reach the point where they need to play quiet gigs it is fairly likely that they will be mindful of these things.

j

[jazzgregg]

to womble:
to greg


that is your opinion greg but it is clear that you still don't understand me, or more likely are choosing not to. to make it clear to you...

A) while i accept that tala wands don't sound like sticks, they also don't sound so drastically NOT like sticks that my choice to use them is detrimental to the song/music/art.

B) when i look at the art side of my drumming i look at my ability to express. the feel of the song is already there as i have played it countless times so the expression in terms of feeling is wellcovered by me but my weakness is playing the song with the same expression but softly. this is then a target i work on at home ... a side of the art i need to work on. BUT at the gigs NOW, greg, this weekend, i need to play with the feel and rather than sounding unsure by breaking out a dynamics chop that is still very much a work in progress i choose to use a solution designed for the purpose.

C) which leads me to the design. Steve smith worked on these for playing along to the tabla on a drumkit. he told me they were designed to feel close to sticks (similar bounce etc), sound close to sticks but at a lower volume. maybe you know better than him.



I understand you just fine, J, I just don't agree with you. Furthermore, I felt that personal attacks against a poster's ability on page one was more than enough but you know that Smith sarcasm (in bold) won't get you anywhere with me either. Be serious, aren't we having a debate? Don't tell me I don't understand because I disgaree with you and your ideas. I will give you credit for knowing that these wands are only a band aid as BigBang said earlier, though you initially were not saying that.


from my point of view the groove is the art ...certainly the greater part of it than the miniscule difference in sound between a tala wand and a stick. i am clearly not obstructing the art. in fact i would be obstructing it if i forced myself to play the song with sticks softly and was unsure and stiff because i wasn't ready to play at those levels with sticks. a selfish stubborn attitude that would be. i'm part of a team and feel no shame breaking out the wands to make music happen rather than live practice.


You are correct, the place to practice is not on the bandstand. For me, I guess, I accept no copouts. If I want a stick sound, I need to use a stick. If I want a blastick/whatever sound, I use them. Watch carefully, this is where you think I'm misunderstanding you: a piece of bread is not a substitute for a steak, they are 2 seperate things- this is my issue. As a quick fix, I accept that non-sticks will obviously allow for quiter playing, my concept of a musician just doesn't involve things like that- quick fixes and the like. I expect musicians should be prapared to do more than they apparently are. That being said, I understand that some people's concept do include that.



good. we agree on that. but i think a lot of the 'generation' needs more credit than you give them. by the time they reach the point where they need to play quiet gigs it is fairly likely that they will be mindful of these things.
j

Do they really? Are you sure about that?

By the way, my name clearly has 2 'g's on the end. Bad spelling is one thing, but that's my name, dude.

G

[NUTHA JASON]

sigh.

sometimes you cannot demand steak in a bakery tho.

and lets leave it at that. you and i have different values.

j

[Auger]

I see I'm late to the party here,

anyway, volume stuff aside, I like rods

You can actually get a lot of good sounds out of them, you just have to know how to use 'em well. If you just try to hit as you would with a stick, I agree they sound pretty unimpressive -especially on the cymbals. Never tried the tala ones, though. I have the promarks.

I see the comparison kind of like looking at an electric vs an acoustic guitar: They're different instruments. Volume issues aside, I always thought it was so boring when bands would 'go acoustic' and just play their songs exactly the same except with acoustic guitars and drum with brushes or rods. I mean, why bother? If you just play the part exactly like you would with a stick/electric guitar it's a pretty arbitrary change, in my opinion. Ditto for brushes.

Not that one needs to completely re-arrange a drum part for rods vs. sticks, it's more in altering touch and treatment of dynamics. Just like a good guitar player knows how to handle an acoustic Vs. an electric. You don't need to completely change the part, but you don't just make the same motions with a different instrument in your hands either.

Another analogy to Drummers using sticks brushes and rods and mallets that comes to mind is to think of a sax player who plays soprano, alto, tenor, and bari. Many of the techniques and fingerings translate across the bunch, but any competent player will tell you they're not all just the same instrument in different keys or octaves. Each one does different musical things and requires a different approach.

I think that rods sound wonderful with rim shots all around the set (though that puts volume control back into the drummer's hands). What also works for me is to think more of 'slapping' -hitting flat with the shoulder of the stick to get more surface area. Not sure if that's clear, but you can get a lot of sound and a nice bell-tone even on heavier cymbals that way.

[vadrum]

we recently got a new worship leader at my church, and i apparently i play too loud. i want to be able to still add cool fills and do speedy stuff on the hi-hat and ride, but how can i practice that without blowing the ears off the old ladies in the church?

any suggestions of excercises i can do?

the answers here are correct. if you need a quick fix, then find an alternative way of playing the songs w/ brushes, wands, or what have you, in order to get the volume level that you want. everything will be okay as long as it sounds good and lies within the musical context. do not feel pressured to have to play these songs w/ sticks if it will work w/ other types of "armament".

however, do not use these implements as a crutch to "band aid" your inability to play your stuff quiet. volume is about one thing. stick height. the higher you raise your stick off the drum the louder the stroke, the lower the stick height in relation to the drum the quieter your stroke will be. so step 1 is to slow down the pace, step 2 is to drop your stick levels down, step 3 is shed and work everything back up to tempo at the quiet volume. BAM - problem solved. now all you need is the dedication and time to put it together.

now, having said that, i will also say this. when you say something like:
i want to be able to still add cool fills and do speedy stuff on the hi-hat and ride, but how can i practice that without blowing the ears off the old ladies in the church?
then i have to say that you cant really play all those cool fills and speedy stuff. if you can only play a phrase loud then you cant really play that phrase at all. anything you can play loud, you have to be able to play quiet as well. so now i have thrown down the guantlet and challenged you to go back and take your vocabulary to the next level and work on all that stuff you love to play at a quiet volume.

here is a tip that i use routinely. grab some music, turn it on but keep the volume down low (NO headphones). play along w/ the track and force yourself to keep the volume of your drumming low enough that you can hear every other instrument on the cd (and watch as half the stuff you normally play fades away into non-existence). good luck and im sure you will have it together soon.

[Drad-dog]

here is a tip that i use routinely. grab some music, turn it on but keep the volume down low (NO headphones). play along w/ the track and force yourself to keep the volume of your drumming low enough that you can hear every other instrument on the cd (and watch as half the stuff you normally play fades away into non-existence). good luck and im sure you will have it together soon.


This is a really good recomendation. You can also play to your metronome with no headphones. Turn it down so that when you're right on the beat, you can't even hear the click. When you start to get off the beat, you'll start to hear the click and you can adjust- all the while
listening really hard, wich is the other half of the dynamics equation. The first half being physical control.

[NUTHA JASON]

not for the argument but its an ironic quote...

"Drums are meant to be loud. It's
like telling a piccolo player, 'Don't
play high' or telling a trumpet
player, 'Don't be so brassy' or
telling a bass player, 'Don't play
low.' Volume, physicality, and
aggressiveness are part of what
drumming is all about."

tony williams - 1991

[murphinelli]

Buddy Rich has said similar things...all depends on the context and the type of music you are talking about. Buddy played Big Band music. This required powerhouse drumming and not much room for quite/melodious playing...Of course, not the case when we start talking be-bop, church music, folk, etc.

Here's an excerpt from the Buddy Rich/Gene Krupa Interview (from 1956) which I posted in another thread....tells a story of how they felt about volume/melodious playing...

Buddy: I have a definite and very set opinions about the so-called modern school of music and drummers. Whereas in the days when it was necessary to swing a band, where a drummer had to be a powerhouse, today more or less the "cool school" has taken over, and I don't believe there's such a thing as a "cool drummer." You either swing a band or don't swing a band and that's what's lacking today.. There aren't any guys who get back there and play with any kind of guts. And I like a heavyweight. I'm not a flyweight. I like-in my fighting, I like heavyweights and in my music I like emotionally good, strong heavyweight type of jazz. And it's just lacking today.

Conover: Well, how do you feel about the idea of drums used almost as a melody instrument rather than just a rhythmic instrument?

Buddy: Well, it would be very nice if you could play a melody on it. But primarily, the drummer's supposed to sit back there and swing the band. Am I right?

Gene: Yeah. If you're going to start with melody you'll need some tympani, I think.

Buddy: (Laughs). And some tunable tom-toms.

Both: (Laugh).

Gene: That's right.

Buddy: I think the drummer should sit back there and play some drums, and never mind about the tunes. Just get up there and wail behind whoever is sitting up there playing the solo. And this is what is lacking, definitely lacking in music today.

[jazzgregg]

not for the argument but its an ironic quote...



tony williams - 1991

Not really ironic at all, considering Tony could play as quiet as he wanted and was choosing to play loud. This is a philosophical approach to drumming, not anything to do with the argument here, as you say.

G

[vadrum]

not for the argument but its an ironic quote...



tony williams - 1991

yes, but it was tony williams saying that. tony could play anyway he wanted, as could buddy, and still be able to work. most don't have that luxury.

now, some of the loudest drummers ive ever heard include ralph peterson jr, victor lewis, carmine appice (sat in the front row of a clinic of his.....bad idea), and i think the top honor is going to have to go to nate smith (i swear i left some of his straight ahead gigs around town w/ my ears bleeding). this certainly does not reflect on their musicianship at all, its just the way they played. and as loud as some of these drummers are, the vibe and energy they create when playing more than makes up for them being a little loud at times. it really depends on where you are playing, who you are playing w/, and what you are playing.

ive sat right next to ben riley at the vanguard listening to the sphere band playing and it never got loud......but the still swung ther a**es off.

anyway, if you listen to eric harland's playing you will find he can play a lot of stuff really quiet. i think this is important. some guys get depressed when they play a gig and cant play loud. all of their vocabulary disappears. but if you can work on playing all of your stuff quiet then it never matters where you are playing. you can play whatever you like within the musical context and never have volume be an issue.

[murphinelli]

some guys get depressed when they play a gig and cant play loud. all of their vocabulary disappears. but if you can work on playing all of your stuff quiet then it never matters where you are playing. you can play whatever you like within the musical context and never have volume be an issue.

this is very true. when i first started playing in church it was frustrating to play only quite stuff. it is indeed challenging. more challenging than playing rock music in some ways. i basically ad-lib in real time for every song. there is very limited rehearsal. so, you have a few seconds to determine what type of song it is and how you are going to play it and make it interesting/artistic. my listening skills, time keeping, touch playing have really improved considerably because of this experience. i would recommend it if you have the time/interest.

[jazzgregg]

yes, but it was tony williams saying that. tony could play anyway he wanted, as could buddy, and still be able to work. most don't have that luxury.

now, some of the loudest drummers ive ever heard include ralph peterson jr, victor lewis, carmine appice (sat in the front row of a clinic of his.....bad idea), and i think the top honor is going to have to go to nate smith (i swear i left some of his straight ahead gigs around town w/ my ears bleeding). this certainly does not reflect on their musicianship at all, its just the way they played. and as loud as some of these drummers are, the vibe and energy they create when playing more than makes up for them being a little loud at times. it really depends on where you are playing, who you are playing w/, and what you are playing.

ive sat right next to ben riley at the vanguard listening to the sphere band playing and it never got loud......but the still swung ther a**es off.

anyway, if you listen to eric harland's playing you will find he can play a lot of stuff really quiet. i think this is important. some guys get depressed when they play a gig and cant play loud. all of their vocabulary disappears. but if you can work on playing all of your stuff quiet then it never matters where you are playing. you can play whatever you like within the musical context and never have volume be an issue.

Agreed completely-very well said. Tony was never the type to hold back his opinions. Sometimes people mistook what he said and used it for evil though=)

G

[da cheese walks]

if you think about it it doesnt matter how you get teh sounds down...it doesnt matter how you get the art there...wheter your hitting a bucket with a dead fish,or a snare with sticks for your ideal sounds,its the finished product that matters...

i think that saying that wands/rutes/brushes are some sort of easy way out of playing dynamics is a tad arguable?i mean yeah ok...you've got your whole art speel...yes its impure...you should learn dynamics etc.....and i do...but the fact is as long as you get a finished piece that sounds,fits,makes the whole song sound right...then it doesnt matter how you got there....

its like arguing that Van Gogh shouldnt have used a certain type of brush/canvas/thinner/paint for "Sunflowers"(for example).....maybe to some people the materials etc. were outdated/not suited to his work etc....but he used what he used...an yet he still made a masterpiece...its undoubtadly a masterpiece....

so as long as you get your masterpiece it shouldnt matter how you achieve those sounds...art is relative..art is too broad a term to use in any arguement..art??who on earth knows what art is!?!?!?everything is art...so i dont think we should start talking about how using rods makes it any less of an "art"....

ehh....
thanks!
Sean

[murphinelli]

right on da cheese walks (whatever that means...). i agree completely. i also have a couple other thoughts on the topic...

forget about the hot rods, wands, rutes stuff. how about sticks? why are there so many different sizes of sticks, mallets, etc.? was it/is it cheating for a jazz drummer to use a lighter stick for a lighter/quieter feel? using the same logic from the technique purists in this thread, i would think yes. why? what came before jazz? concert percussion, correct? what size sticks did they/do they use? 2B's or bigger pretty much (.650"D+, 16 1/4"L+). and aren't they required to play the whole range of dynamics from pppp to ffff at slow and fast tempos? so, why do jazz drummers such as gene krupa (0.500"D, 15"L), buddy rich( .590"D, 16 5/16"L), steve gadd(.550"D, 15 3/4"L), etc. choose a much thinner/lighter stick? they should be able to play the dynamic range & speeds required for jazz with a 2B shouldn't they? aren't they cheating when picking a lighter stick? don't tell me you can't get the same sounds with a 2B wood tip vs. a 5A wood tip. with the right touch you should be able to...

here's another cheating angle (off topic, but somewhat related). wasn't traditional grip cheating for concert drummers and jazz drummers? why on earth would anyone play a drum other than an angled marching drum with traditional grip? because they were already comfortable with it and didn't feel like learning something more efficient. they should have learned how to use matched grip because it is more correct and efficient. you don't play a tympani or xylophone with traditional grip do you?

[zambizzi]

All very good points...and I'd have to agree...*how* you form the sound you want is almost purely subjective - everyone is different.

If you like 747 sticks (like I do) or 2B tree trunks...mallets, or claw hammers out of your toolbox - the point is, do what is comfortable...and then make the sounds you want. Your gear is ultimately unimportant to what you achieve. Using different sticks won't dramatically alter your playing (at least this is what I've found...again, everyone is different.)

As w/ all drumming...it comes from within.

[jazzgregg]

right on da cheese walks (whatever that means...). i agree completely. i also have a couple other thoughts on the topic...

forget about the hot rods, wands, rutes stuff. how about sticks? why are there so many different sizes of sticks, mallets, etc.? was it/is it cheating for a jazz drummer to use a lighter stick for a lighter/quieter feel? using the same logic from the technique purists in this thread, i would think yes. why? what came before jazz? concert percussion, correct? what size sticks did they/do they use? 2B's or bigger pretty much (.650"D+, 16 1/4"L+). and aren't they required to play the whole range of dynamics from pppp to ffff at slow and fast tempos? so, why do jazz drummers such as gene krupa (0.500"D, 15"L), buddy rich( .590"D, 16 5/16"L), steve gadd(.550"D, 15 3/4"L), etc. choose a much thinner/lighter stick? they should be able to play the dynamic range & speeds required for jazz with a 2B shouldn't they? aren't they cheating when picking a lighter stick? don't tell me you can't get the same sounds with a 2B wood tip vs. a 5A wood tip. with the right touch you should be able to...

here's another cheating angle (off topic, but somewhat related). wasn't traditional grip cheating for concert drummers and jazz drummers? why on earth would anyone play a drum other than an angled marching drum with traditional grip? because they were already comfortable with it and didn't feel like learning something more efficient. they should have learned how to use matched grip because it is more correct and efficient. you don't play a tympani or xylophone with traditional grip do you?

Solid wood is solid wood, a stick is a stick. Any 2 sticks will sound more alike than any stick and something else. How you think that someone might think that is cheating is pretty funny. Especially since you debate yourself and actually lose:

was it/is it cheating for a jazz drummer to use a lighter stick for a lighter/quieter feel? using the same logic from the technique purists in this thread, i would think yes.

is cancelled out by:
don't tell me you can't get the same sounds with a 2B wood tip vs. a 5A wood tip. with the right touch you should be able to...

Zambizzi- exactly, how you get the sound is subjectice and different for everyone, however, (again) when a sound is sacrificed for something else, I feel (representing the one side of the debate) that the art is sacrificed. The solution to dirty dishes is not to buy another house.

Da Cheese- I like your Van Gogh example, but I think in this case, it's more like Van Gogh did 'Sunflowers' by paint by numbers, with pencil crayon. In other words, yes, it IS about how you get the sounds, but the issue here is what sounds you want. I think the topic (take note mods) has wandered from 'rods are/are not a substute for sticks when it comes to sound and volume', to 'rods are ok, as long as you get the sound you want'. These 2 things are in fact, mutually exclusive.



G

[Auger]

Along the lines of what Gregg was saying, I think there was a jump/misunderstanding here. I don't think -at least in my reading- that it was ever asserted that using rods to play quietly isn't a good thing to do because that's cheating on the grounds that it doesn't require sufficient skill. That's the dualist argument.

What I thought was asserted is that, if what you want is the sound of sticks, but you can't play softly enough in a given situation with sticks to make that work, switching to rods and compromising the sound you wanted to attain lower volumes is the "copout."

What I was implying -though not outright stating- was that another alternative is to re-evaluate your approach to the song, rather than just using the rods as a band-aid. Make it a song for the rods, not just a song for the sticks, played with the rods to control volume.

[SickRick]

don't tell me you can't get the same sounds with a 2B wood tip vs. a 5A wood tip. with the right touch you should be able to...

Do you actually play drums sometimes, or do you just post randomly?

Different Tip/Different stick weight/size/wood etc. = different sound. Why on earth would stick companys bother to build different Tips, if they all sounded the same??

Really.... if you don't have to say anything about a topic, then don't say anything. Please. People with little knowledge about drumming might get confused if they read that kind of crap and don't realize it's crap.

[murphinelli]

What I thought was asserted is that, if what you want is the sound of sticks, but you can't play softly enough in a given situation with sticks to make that work, switching to rods and compromising the sound you wanted to attain lower volumes is the "copout."


Is it cheating to move to a lighter/smaller stick? Let's say you normally use a 5A, but find that you don't have the technique to get the lower volumes. So, you decide to move to an American Jazz stick of say 0.50 Diameter. With this stick you find you can get the low volumes. Is that cheating? You didn't improve your technique at all. You just switches sticks.

[fixmejesus]

we recently got a new worship leader at my church, and i apparently i play too loud. i want to be able to still add cool fills and do speedy stuff on the hi-hat and ride, but how can i practice that without blowing the ears off the old ladies in the church?

any suggestions of excercises i can do?

You and everyone else should praise the lord and pray that you will receive enough donations to buy a Roland V Drum.

[murphinelli]

praise the lord! lord help the other drummers in this thread understand the simple example set forth before thee. amen.

A. sticks -> rods (copout, when technique is not there for lower volumes)
B. big sticks -> light sticks (copout on the same token, when technique is not there)

if i apply your logic to myself, i am a copout. correct? i moved from a 5A to a lighter jazz stick in order to be quieter in church. i should have stuck with the 5A and worked on my technique?

[jazzgregg]

praise the lord! lord help the other drummers in this thread understand the simple example set forth before thee. amen.

A. sticks -> rods (copout, when technique is not there for lower volumes)
B. big sticks -> light sticks (copout on the same token, when technique is not there)

if i apply your logic to myself, i am a copout. correct? i moved from a 5A to a lighter jazz stick in order to be quieter in church. i should have stuck with the 5A and worked on my technique?

No murph, you're a copout because you don't really post useful information. Nor do you often understand the point, as shown by your above question concerning whether or not you are a copout. If you didn't have me on 'ignore' you would see that I already addressed this question above.

G

[Auger]

Is it cheating to move to a lighter/smaller stick? Let's say you normally use a 5A, but find that you don't have the technique to get the lower volumes. So, you decide to move to an American Jazz stick of say 0.50 Diameter. With this stick you find you can get the low volumes. Is that cheating? You didn't improve your technique at all. You just switches sticks.

No, I don't think that's cheating. If you can get the sound you want, there's no wrong way to do it IMO. (I didn't read anyone saying otherwise ...unless I'm mistaken?) So, again, I don’t think anyone implied or said that sticks to rods is the same thing as switching from big sticks to small sticks before you asserted that.

Also, repeating what I said in my last post, switching from sticks to rods is not cheating (or a copout) because it’s easier technique-wise in terms of playing softly. Sacrificing sound to accommodate lacking technique: that’s the copout.

Rick's point is a good one too. But, to me that's kind of a grey area. I mean, I think Rick's absolutely right about different tips, but I think those differences all fall within the realm of still 'sounding like sticks' where rods don't. ...and I think there's more of a player skill factor there too: you have to be able to take advantage of the differences between sticks to really make that noticeable. Kind of like getting the most out of any one pair of sticks by knowing how to use different angles to get different sounds -why I think round tips are a little limited. But, yeah, that is a valid point to consider.

[cnw60]

You and everyone else should praise the lord and pray that you will receive enough donations to buy a Roland V Drum.

.. and the truth shall set you free!!!!

[NUTHA JASON]

Sacrificing sound to accommodate lacking technique: that’s the copout.


Yes, perhaps so, but as i have said too many times here, the 'cop out' is justified if the skill is lacking but the gig demands quiet playing in the present and cannot wait a few years for the skill to grow (to the level demanded right now). i have never advocated NOT learning to drum softly but i have said that these wands are a good solution if i need to drum extremely softly tonight.

and i can drum very softly by the way. it is just that songs with edgy speed like 'sultans of swing' feel more comfortable to me if played with more force ... hence the wands.

i don't call it a cop out. i call it a solution to a temporary problem.

i'm always practicing dynamics where feasable and advise anyone to do the same but my own drumming progress/pride/skill or whatever you call it must come second after the needs of mt band and the gig. so i will use the wands unashamedly and would advise anyone else to do likewise in the same circumstances.

j

[murphinelli]

mrcooljazzgregg,

i'm always a copout to you. that's why i tend to leave "ignore" on...every once in a while i'll check in on the babbling...smooth jazz, master, rods...all the same crap nonsense to me.

thanks.
murph

[jazzgregg]

mrcooljazzgregg,



I'm actually not a big fan of much 'Cool Jazz', though Chet Baker with Gerry Mulligan is good.

G

[vadrum]

no one is cheating at anything by moving to wands, brushes, or whatever.
that is a logical solution to a problem, particularly if time is of the essence.
however, if you want to play the songs w/ sticks, then you need to adjust
your technique and shed playing quiet.

i say this again. no one should ever feel pressured to play a song,
or portions of a song, a certain way unless the composer is giving you
the "furry eyeball" for not playing it they way they requested. if it sounds
good, use it. just dont give up on technique because switching from sticks is easier.

the issue that i find w/ switching to smaller sticks is that it usually
doesn't do enough to overcome the technical issues. if you cant play quiet, you
cant play quiet and switching from sticks to fingers or socks on your hands is not
going to help you address that issue.

i love purists. they are are necessary, kenny washington is a fantastic example.
however, i dont think the purist attitude is always healthy. thats just me.

[fat in the middle]

a little rant here,,,the other night i was playing [quietly], and the manager came up to me and told me to be more quiet,,,[i was playing solo guitar/singing at a restaurant] , then the staff started doing the cutlery behind my head on the bar while having a loud conversatiton,,very rude, They made twice the noise i did, and i was playing a little walking blues! It was one of those gigs where the owner wanted a token musician, rather than music. I am not going back there unless i have a big bill to pay! lol
Point being, often the intent of the owners is not about the music,,thanks for that, feel much better

[Johnest]

I want to know something...

If someone buy a Roland V-drum for quiet practice in is appartment, is it a cop-out? If so, i'm a total cop-out man.

Let's say this, maybe it's not every drummer in the world who have 8 hours a day to practice quiet drumming to reach an acceptable technique for a live performance where quiet drumming is required. So, rods and talla-wand seems a solution (short term solution maybe), not a cop-out... Like the v-drum in an appartment... a solution.

[centralzeke]

It doesn't take 8 hours of quiet practicing a day to get quieter.......

[bigbang]

I want to know something...

If someone buy a Roland V-drum for quiet practice in is appartment, is it a cop-out? If so, i'm a total cop-out man.

Let's say this, maybe it's not every drummer in the world who have 8 hours a day to practice quiet drumming to reach an acceptable technique for a live performance where quiet drumming is required. So, rods and talla-wand seems a solution (short term solution maybe), not a cop-out... Like the v-drum in an appartment... a solution.

Heh Heh,
I think these are two different beasts : you can still practce dynamically on an e-kit

[Womble]

Thank God this guy hadn't heard of tala wands:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHeI68KFGm0

Thanks to Auger for this one.

[HardcoreLogo]

If you look in any working drummers stick bag, you will see a range of different sticks, tips, mallets rods and brushes. Different tools for different jobs! Yes it's true that you should explore all the dynamic and tonal aspects of, say, a standard 5a stick, but if the "sound" you require is a soft cymbal swell, or a brush raking across a cymbal with a quarter taped on it(which sizzles), then use the right tool for the job! I think any decent drummer will agree that, if for example, your playing in a small church or club, trying to play dynamicly with a set of 2b's is just silly.......use what works, but practice hard to utilize what each tool has to offer, thats my 2 cents anyway.........

[da cheese walks]

Da Cheese- I like your Van Gogh example, but I think in this case, it's more like Van Gogh did 'Sunflowers' by paint by numbers, with pencil crayon. In other words, yes, it IS about how you get the sounds, but the issue here is what sounds you want. I think the topic (take note mods) has wandered from 'rods are/are not a substute for sticks when it comes to sound and volume', to 'rods are ok, as long as you get the sound you want'. These 2 things are in fact, mutually exclusive.

but if the sound your looking for is one of decreased volume and/or a ligther sound,then the rods are ok!ill admit i agree that dynamics are insanely vital to anything in drumming,but still i dont feel a person is a "copout" for using brushes/rods to get a lower,lighter sound?

hmmm...i bet even if Van Gogh had done "Sunflowers" in crayon,he would hav still made it a masterpiece!!haha!

[bigbang]

If you look in any working drummers stick bag, you will see a range of different sticks, tips, mallets rods and brushes. Different tools for different jobs! Yes it's true that you should explore all the dynamic and tonal aspects of, say, a standard 5a stick, but if the "sound" you require is a soft cymbal swell, or a brush raking across a cymbal with a quarter taped on it(which sizzles), then use the right tool for the job! I think any decent drummer will agree that, if for example, your playing in a small church or club, trying to play dynamicly with a set of 2b's is just silly.......use what works, but practice hard to utilize what each tool has to offer, thats my 2 cents anyway.........

Not trying to be difficult or anything but i play and endorse Los Cabos rock drumsticks.These are longer and thicker and almost as heavy as a 2b( in fact it would be hard to spot a weight difference ) and I can play so quietly you would have to strain to hear me.On the opposite end , I can bash so loud you would have to leave the county ( lol). These are the only things in my stickbag ( I mostly play pop and country ).Not trying to blow my own horn but I 'm just saying that proper technique can carry you a long way.

[jazzgregg]

If you look in any working drummers stick bag, you will see a range of different sticks, tips, mallets rods and brushes. Different tools for different jobs! Yes it's true that you should explore all the dynamic and tonal aspects of, say, a standard 5a stick, but if the "sound" you require is a soft cymbal swell, or a brush raking across a cymbal with a quarter taped on it(which sizzles), then use the right tool for the job! I think any decent drummer will agree that, if for example, your playing in a small church or club, trying to play dynamicly with a set of 2b's is just silly.......use what works, but practice hard to utilize what each tool has to offer, thats my 2 cents anyway.........

Your first statment actually encompasses both sides of this discussion!

Yes, you should play dynamically with sticks.
Yes, if you want the sound of a brush, use a brush, the right tool. This is not what some others are saying, at least to the affect for example, if their brush chops aren't good a subsitute is in order. In other words, the 'right tool for the job' issecondary to the ability to play with that tool.

It's totally possible to play dynamically with 2B's, just difficult.

bigbang- but aren't los Cabos maple (much lighter)? I play Firth maple 5B's and they are lighter than any other non maple stick.

G

[TheSteve]

But using a brush doesn't always mean you're playing soft. Why do most think you have to play with brushes during a bass solo and sticks on a sax solo? You can always do the opposite. Look at Joe Jones, there's many times he would play with brushes during a part that didn't consist of "soft playing." Some drummers also use heavier or thicker sticks and can still play soft. So, if you think about it then you should choose your sticks and learn how to play at every dynamic range. Is that off topic?

[bigbang]

Hey Gregg , your right , they are lighter and I should clarify.They probably would'nt feel any lighter to someone who just picked up a pair of 2b's and a pair of the Los Cabos Rock if you've been playing on smaller sticks. If someone has been already playing 2b's and moved to the rock ones, they would notice a weight difference.
cheers

[vadrum]

But using a brush doesn't always mean you're playing soft. Why do most think you have to play with brushes during a bass solo and sticks on a sax solo? You can always do the opposite. Look at Joe Jones, there's many times he would play with brushes during a part that didn't consist of "soft playing." Some drummers also use heavier or thicker sticks and can still play soft. So, if you think about it then you should choose your sticks and learn how to play at every dynamic range. Is that off topic?


not off topic at all. i remember victor lewis used the firth 5Bs when he played, and he is one of the most dynamic players out there. i never understood how he could use a stick that big and get the sound that he does, except to say that he has a fantastic touch on the instrument.

[Miggle]

i'm learning to play quietly (i'm used to playing at a moderate volume) since I get home at 8PM and at times want to practice till 10pm (but don't want to bother my neighbors).

Some things I learned is to let the stick drop about 1.5-2 inches from the cymbals and bounce. Its a bit different with the drums, you let it drop but before it hits the head, pull away. The stick should hit the head lightly this way and with a nice tone. Once you're able to control that, its a leap forward. I'm still having trouble with stick control with my left, unfortunately.

[tamadrummer132]

well i have good news... after a few hours practicing with the band, i played at a perfectly fine volume level, and i still played the same stuff, just a little less pop in the snare.

btw... this thread wasnt supposed 2 get that many replies lol

[Latin Groover]

Good for you it was the aim.

[jazzsnob]

Wow, someone actually practices and gets results! Awesome! Good job tamadrummer! Keep working on it.

[Womble]

I've just had a good old session playing d n' b patterns as quietly as I possibly could. Seriously, barely audible. I'd forgotten just how strangely fun this is, and I really, really recommend it. I found that at such low volumes I'm far quicker to notice the slightest tension anywhere in my limbs, and because I'm playing so quietly I know there's even less excuse for it than usual.

TRY IT!

[jazzgregg]

well i have good news... after a few hours practicing with the band, i played at a perfectly fine volume level, and i still played the same stuff, just a little less pop in the snare.

btw... this thread wasnt supposed 2 get that many replies lol

Hmm, thought I had posted here. Anyway, nice job, it prooves you don't need years or substitutes to play quieter, just actual practice. No (what are) copouts (to me) either. Yeah, go figure.

G

[deltadrummer1]

we recently got a new worship leader at my church, and i apparently i play too loud. i want to be able to still add cool fills and do speedy stuff on the hi-hat and ride, but how can i practice that without blowing the ears off the old ladies in the church?

any suggestions of excercises i can do?

Well Jazzsnob had the right advice. All you can do is practice quietly to become quieter...how else? Also, Nuthajason gave good advice too..pertaining to your situation. Grab some wands or hot rods or whatever they're called and use those at the church gigs . In the meantime, practice to play quieter.. It doesn't come over night so don't expect it to. Good luck

[Legacyrik]

You have a very strange view of art.

Also, you may think copout is a bit strong, but it isn't at all. I have repeatedly said, you are obstructing art when you use something for a purpose other than contributing to said art. The solution to your car troubles is not to buy a bike, you know?

Jazz is about music (and I did NOT bring this up). Jazz musicians don't really spend alot of time talking about stuff like this with each other because as musicians, it is a given. How you make that music is secondary to the music itself, this is what it means when 'music comes first'. The way I see it, rather than not going anyplace because I value the feel of sitting still, I would try to work on my comfort and skill in going places. And you know what, maybe that's what you want and that's cool. I was just trying to prevent another generation from thinking that 'quiet drumming' is a synonym for 'hot rods/blaststicks/wands'.

BigBang- yeah, I hear you and a band aid it is, but like I said, how many people ACTUALLY learn to play dynamically? This is why when I see them used as a 'volume substitute' rather than a sound choice, it's neccesary to make this point, I think.

Tom and SecondX have some good points as well. It is true, anyone can bash on a drumset, it takes real skill to not do that.
G

So what should he do? He believes the song in question sounds better currently when he plays it with the rods.

What should he do?

A) Not play it until he get's it down.
B) Use sticks and play it the worse.
C) Use the rods and play it best (currently).

[Eric]

I agree with jazzgreg-one should use sticks if they want the sound of sticks, and then learn to play more quietly. I would literally have about half as many gigs as I do if I couldn't play quietly-and I'm talking really really quietly. It takes a light touch and excellent stick control, but my sticks aren't actually that light. (Peter Erskine ride stick) Wanna know my secret? Here it is;
ERIC'S PATENTED CHICK-SINGER SNARE DRUM TUNING TECHNIQUE
1. tune both heads tight enough so that the drum doesn't resonate. It should not sustain.
2. loosen the snares as much as possible without losing clarity.
That's it. The sound takes some getting used to, and it may feel strange to play a head that tight. This will give your snare a darker sound and elimate the frequencies that cause problems in a live room. When I show up to an obviously live room, or I get a volume complaint, I just tighten the head and loosen the snares and problem solved. I swear by it, give it a try.

[IDDrummer]

I watched this "debate" with some interest and amusement the first time around.

There seem to be two schools of thought - the purist, who says play with sticks only, and the pragmatist, who says use whatever tool achieves a result that satisfies.

While I certainly agree that a person should be able to play with a wide dynamic range, I think the purists are overlooking something. Playing a drum very quietly produces a different sound from the drum that playing loudly! I've found this to be especially true with drums that are tuned low for rock/pop playing, and not so much when drums are tuned tightly, which may be why so many jazz guys seem to be advocating the purist point of view. Just saying "use a stick when you want a stick sound" doesn't really address the whole picture, I don't think.

Anyway, when you play a drum part quietly that was originally performed or conceived at a higher volume, the part is going to sound different than the original, no matter whether it is played with sticks, brushes, tala wands, etc. One poster even advocates changing the tuning of the drum - an effective solution, but again, it changes the sound from the original conception. How is that different than using an alternate striking implement?

People who are talking about not being true to the art are missing the point, it seems to me. Art is about the expression, not necessarily the means or the tools used. Nobody told Jackson Pollack "No, No, you have to use a brush because that's the proper tool! You can't just splash the paint on there!" (Or if they did, I'm glad he didn't listen!) It's one thing to take the art of drumming seriously, but it's another to think we can define it, especially for someone else.

Oh well, I know that tamadrummer132 solved the issue long ago, but since it was brought up again I thought I'd add my $.02.

[n2xlr8n]

So what should he do? He believes the song in question sounds better currently when he plays it with the rods.

What should he do?

A) Not play it until he get's it down.
B) Use sticks and play it the worse.
C) Use the rods and play it best (currently).


LOL. Right. You posted what I was thinking.

My 20+ years of playing and studying tell me to choose "C"....because it's all about the music; Not about what some mouthpiece thinks of my technique ; ) No offense, of course.

SRJ

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Back in the day in high school we had to learn dynamics. Playing both snare and tympani, it is possible to do fast single stroke rolls quietly. We didnt change mallets
to play quietly, we played softly. Same with the snare. When playing that type of music, classical etc, double and single stroke rolls were played, and practiced quietly. Give it some time and reward yourself with a new skill.

[bonzolead]

You're just gonna have to learn to play softly.it's all about dynamics.

Keep Swatting(softly),

Bonzolead

[Eric]

Anyway, when you play a drum part quietly that was originally performed or conceived at a higher volume, the part is going to sound different than the original, no matter whether it is played with sticks, brushes, tala wands, etc. One poster even advocates changing the tuning of the drum - an effective solution, but again, it changes the sound from the original conception. How is that different than using an alternate striking implement?

Yes, it won't sound like the original. In these situations, the ideal snare drum sound is off the menu, plain and simple (unless you're playing electronic drums). But sticks on a snare drum with the brightness tuned out is obviously closer in sound than non-sticks. I'm not a purist at all-I also use other devices, but if the snare drum is tuned too brightly, you will be stuck using brushes or rods ALL NIGHT- not a very flexible option. By the way, for a backbeat in a quiet room, I find a brush pushed into the snare drum to be effective as well. It's all a personal choice.

[IDDrummer]

Eric - I agree with you. You weren't really one of the "purists" I was referring to. Your approach seems totally practical, and sounds like good advice. I just meant that changing the sound of the drum via tuning is not that much different than changing the sound of the drum via striking implement, if both achieve the desired result.

I suppose the point some people are trying to make is that a drummer should not rely on hot-rods (or any other equipment adjustment, such as tuning?) in place of decent technique. I understand their point, but I also think it's totally valid to make equipment changes to serve the music, as well.

I think some folks are a bit too rigid, but it comes down to personal choice, ultimately.