Groove Essential Jazz Question!!!!

[Mr.Echo]

Tommy Igoe's Groove Esentials Help!!
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/groove_essentials/images/18.gif

I curently working on Groove 18 - Jazz Quarter Note Comping
for over a week now. I can play this groove straight but it has
no jazzy feel to it.

I'm having trouble making the ride cymbal swing(spang-a-lang)
and keeping the bass drum playing 1/4 notes.

I CAN NOT get the ride to line up with the bass drum 1/4 notes.
When I play the Spang-a-lang, the ride falls between the 1/4 notes.

x---x----x----------x----x----x-----------x---x----x----------x----x----x----------R
x---------------x----------------------------x---------------x---------------x----------SD
x---------x----------x----------x----------x---------x----------x----------x----------BD
1-e-&-a-2-e-&-a-3-e-&-a-4-e-&-a-1-e-&-a-2-e-&-a-3-e-&-a-4-e-&-a-

OR

x-------x-x----------x-------x-x----------x-------x-x----------x-------x-x---------S
x---------------x----------------------------x---------------x---------------x----------R
x---------x----------x----------x----------x---------x----------x----------x---------BD
1-e-&-a-2-e-&-a-3-e-&-a-4-e-&-a-1-e-&-a-2-e-&-a-3-e-&-a-4-e-&-a-



In the sheet music, The ride is playing the spang-a-lang on
1, 2, &.
But it sounds like he's playing,

x---x----x----------x----x----x-----------x---x----x----------x----x----x----------R
x---------------x----------------------------x---------------x---------------x----------SD
x---------x----------x----------x----------x---------x----------x----------x----------BD
1-e-&-a-2-e-&-a-3-e-&-a-4-e-&-a-1-e-&-a-2-e-&-a-3-e-&-a-4-e-&-a-


I'm about to TOSS my Drums into the Ocean because of this groove.
I have played this groove many different ways(See Above Tab) and none of them
WORK or sounds like what Tommy is playing)!

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Steady Freddy]

You seem to counting it it straight time. It's a triplet feel.

One trip let two trip let

[jazzsnob]

How much jazz do you listen to?

[Mr.Echo]

How much jazz do you listen to?

I see some people in here shoot first and ask questions second!

[finnhiggins]

I see some people in here shoot first and ask questions second!

It's actually the right question. The only way to learn a style is to get up to your ears in it, and starting with a bunch of great jazz records (Kind of Blue never hurts) is really the best way to start. Jazz isn't a bunch of exercises, it's an expressive form - rather than learning a bunch of "catchphrases" in a new language it's really best to actually immerse yourself in the language and culture. It's initially more overwheming, but the only way to actually learn the stuff.

[Mr.Echo]

It's actually the right question. The only way to learn a style is to get up to your ears in it, and starting with a bunch of great jazz records (Kind of Blue never hurts) is really the best way to start. Jazz isn't a bunch of exercises, it's an expressive form - rather than learning a bunch of "catchphrases" in a new language it's really best to actually immerse yourself in the language and culture. It's initially more overwheming, but the only way to actually learn the stuff.

I've been listen to Jazz Music(Hard-bop and Be-bop) everyday for a year now and have
been trying to play it for 2 months. I can hear it, I can feel it, I just cant play it correctly
because I cant get the ride cymbal to swing in time with the bass 1/4 note.

What exactly does "swing" means vs. playing it straight, in tearms of music?
I must go now, the black smoke is chasing me...

[bromasi]

triplets,triplets,triplets, if you play these with the quarter note you will begin to line them up.Good Luck

[Shane G]

I've been listen to Jazz Music(Hard-bop and Be-bop) everyday for a year now and have been trying to play it for 2 months. I can hear it, I can feel it, I just cant play it correctly because I cant get the ride cymbal to swing in time with the bass 1/4 note.
Your solution is to practice the Paradiddle-diddle.

& practice it till your eyes bleed.


(tip...IF you play it as dictated by PAS, it starts on beat two.)



Dont know what Im talking about?
Try this:
www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments/19paradiddlediddle.html

[jazzin']

A basic way of trying to get the feel, apart from listening which you seem to be, is play bass quarters then play triplets on the ride. Now just take out every second note of the triplet. Then go from there.

[spw]

Like everyone has stated, TRIPLETS.

As far as getting it to FEEL, play just the ride, then add the hat, then the quarter pulse on the bass, then just play it and play it....develope the feel.

I'm working out of the Chapin book, and i will just do the ride-hat-bass for 5-10 min just to warm up and try to develope the feel, then i will start adding the snare.

[Wavelength]

Steve Smith: Exercises for developing swing style, part III (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/smith.html)

Check it out.

[jazzsnob]

I see some people in here shoot first and ask questions second!

Even though finn explained exactly why I posted what i did, it's pretty funny that I, you know, asked a question first.

I strongly suggest you quit worrying about the bass drum. It's true that 4 on the floor is an important part of jazz, but you need to remember that the ride cymbal is more important. However much jazz you listen to, start listening to twice as much, get a fairly quiet practice pad and play along with just the ride cymbal. Don't worry about the bass drum for now. Just try and match the ride cymbal. And also work on double strokes twice as much as you do now.

[Bad Drummer]

Even though finn explained exactly why I posted what i did, it's pretty funny that I, you know, asked a question first.

I strongly suggest you quit worrying about the bass drum. It's true that 4 on the floor is an important part of jazz, but you need to remember that the ride cymbal is more important. However much jazz you listen to, start listening to twice as much, get a fairly quiet practice pad and play along with just the ride cymbal. Don't worry about the bass drum for now. Just try and match the ride cymbal. And also work on double strokes twice as much as you do now.

On another note, who uses 4 on the floor these days? I rarely hear it ever.

[jazzsnob]

You're right, but 4 on the floor is really useful with a big band, and it's a part of our history so it's something to know about.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

On another note, who uses 4 on the floor these days? I rarely hear it ever.

The reason why you don't hear it is because it is mostly feathered. The rule of thumb for feathering is that if you hear it you are too loud. I use feathering quarters on the bass drum in small combo playing all the time, and it really grounds the sound. Check it out. Jazzsnob says it is part of history, and that is completely true. But it is more than that, because the original, readily audible thump has a modern interpretation, so it really meshes well with modern jazz. DPS

[jazzsnob]

It's true I should have thought of the dynamic issue. With how modern drums are tuned and record, lots of players don't even understand the concept of playing light on the bass drum, because they only know volume to play bassdrum at: out of control.

If you're practicing 4 on the floor, practice it so quietly that you can barely hear the attack of the pedal, and you can only hear the tone of your drum. It would be helpful to take any pillows out of your bass drum.

[lochday]

Even though finn explained exactly why I posted what i did, it's pretty funny that I, you know, asked a question first.

... the ride cymbal is more important...

Quite right! Also very important is to practice steps by steps for a long time!
Seven Steps to heaven
1 Listen to Mack the Knife by Ella Fitzgerald (best of). The ride cymbal is clearly heard on this record and it is great swinging. Try to concentrate on listening just the ride cymbal.
2 Play the record on your ipod or whatever you have and play along just the ride cymbal, (nothing else) unisono with the drummer on the record. several times/days... Do not worry if you can't do it on the whole song. The idea is to feel the swing pulse. Adopt the French grip for playing the ride.
3 listen again (in car, at home)
4 play along again but this time try to add the hi hat on 2 and 4 while playing the ride (spang a lang) several times/days... Be accurate:hi hat and ride are at the exact same time!
5 You should know the song almost by heart at this stage. Be careful not to get fed up with the song, you have to like it! Listen to other things as well. Very important!
6 play along again but this time try to add the bass drum while playing the ride (spang a lang) and the hi hat (2 and 4) several times/days... Steps again: do not attempt to play the bass drum on every 1/4 note yet. Remember cymbals come first. So cymbals and BD on the one, then add the BD on the 2, the 3 and finally the 4th beat. On 2 and 4 the BD, the ride and the hi hat are unisono.
7 Time now to add your left hand. It was lasily waiting for something to do. A lot of work is still awaiting you here. You could start by just hitting the snare in betwen the one and the two (the "andof") and then devise a step by step programme just for it: left hand on every beat, on every "and", etc.
Good luck
NB Forget about 1e+a2. Prefer 1+a2+a3+a4 more akin to the triplet feel in jazz.

[LunarNote]

everyone here seems to have their own approach, so i guess i'll throw in mine. there are a few basics to jazz time keeping. first, the "spang-a-lang", the jazz ride cymbal pattern. if you were having any confusion over what it is, it is a quarter note, two eighth notes,another quarter note, and another 2 eighth notes, so, 1, 2 and 3, 4 and. im hoping im not confusing you, but just make sure your 8th notes are swung. the technical definition of a swung 8th note is that it like taking a grouping of 3 8th note triplets, and taking out the middle one/replacing it with a rest. this can also be written as a quarter note triplet and an 8th note triplet. this probably sounds way more complicated than it really is....unless you have no rhythm whatsoever, you should be able to pretty much feel swung 8th notes without too much problem. just play ding ding da ding ding da ding on the ride cymbal. number two, 2 and 4 on the hi hat, this of course, like everything in jazz, is variable, but the basic starting point is keeping it on 2 and 4. try and make it sound crisp and tight when you bring it down. jimmy cobb is a great example of crisp hi hat playing. also, like mentioned before, feathering the bass drum. this is quarter notes on the bass drum, PLAYED REALLY REALLY QUIETLY. most people dont grasp how quiet. you should be bringing the beater MAYBE an inch off of the head. this is NOT an old school or outdated technique...philly jo jones did it, tony williams did it, art blakey did it, jimmy cobb did it....etc. make sure everything you play locks in with everything else...i.e, when you play 2 with your hi hat it locks in with the corresponding bass drum feather and ride cymbal stroke, etc. if you can play the basic jazz groove with perfect consistency like that at a good variety of tempos, you'll be ahead of most other people trying to play jazz on the planet.

[blade123]

Just leave the bass and snare out for right now. Just get the splang-a-lang with hats on 2+4. Try to perfect that feel. A lot of drummers leave the 4 on the floor out (I do). Then add the snare in, and think in triplets, not 8ths.

[Vinnysimmo]

Just play the ride pattern and the 2 and 4 on the highhats. Concentrate on that. Dont even try to add anything else until you got that solid.

[Jimothy]

Your solution is to practice the Paradiddle-diddle.

& practice it till your eyes bleed.


(tip...IF you play it as dictated by PAS, it starts on beat two.)

100% agree, so on beat two it is: RLLRLR keep repeating thinking 123123 RLLRLRRLLRLR

When you get comfy playing it. Notice what your right hand is playing....It should be fairly near the swing you're after. Just develop from there
I was shown this about a year a go and it really helps!

And dare I mention how Moeller can help with swing..... *Runs before Moeller debate kicks off* :-)

[LunarNote]

Just leave the bass and snare out for right now. Just get the splang-a-lang with hats on 2+4. Try to perfect that feel. A lot of drummers leave the 4 on the floor out (I do). Then add the snare in, and think in triplets, not 8ths.

DONT leave out the bass drum. all the great jazz drummers feathered, except for elvin jones and roy haynes, pretty much. a lot of people don't understand how quiet feathering is.....you basicallly shouldnt be able to hear it. when i feather i dont bring the beater back more than 1 inch, approximately. philly joe feathered, art blakey feathed, tony williams feathered, jimmy cobb feathered.....its important. just practice the jazz ride pattern along with 2 and 4 on the hi hats, and quarter notes feathered on the bass drum. thats REALLY all you need.make it sounds good. like, really good.

[Bossa Nova]

OK, you've never played jazz before, so I'm going to slow down the explanation.

To answer your original question: Tommy IS NOT playing the groove as it is written on the poster. Let me repeat: HE IS NOT playing it as written on the poster. OK?

The way it is written, the eighth notes are straight, but in jazz, there is an implied "swing" to these notes. What do I mean by this? What this means is that the eighth notes are not straight eighth notes (aka 8 notes in a 4/4 measure), but eighth note triplets (12 notes in a 4/4 measure).

I will use your own drum tab to show what Tommy is playing:


x-----------x-------x--x-----------x-------x---x--Ride
-------------x-----------------------x----------------Hi-Hat
x-----------x-----------x-----------x-----------x---Bass Drum
1-trip-let-2-trip-let-3-trip-let-4-trip-let-1


Do you know what triplets are? This is essential if you want to play jazz.

I would suggest starting with four on the floor. Play very quiet quarter notes on the bass drum, playing along to some slow or medium tempo jazz tunes. Then play quarter notes on the ride, and play 2 and 4 on the hi hat. At this point you will only be missing (not playing) two notes on the ride. Listen to the placement of the triplets on the ride cymbal in the music and when you get the timing, start playing them... I hope this helps. Please ask follow up questions if you don't understand.