Son or Rhumba clave in salsa and samba?

[abe]

Which clave is basic for samba and salsa beats - son clave or rhumba clave?

[Wavelength]

"Salsa" is an American blanket definition for general Afro-Cuban music such as son, mambo, songo etc. Stick with the son clavé when playing Afro-Cuban styles. The rhumba clave is usually best left alone, unless you are playing an actual rhumba or guaguanco.

Samba is a Brazilian style of music. Use the bossa clavé and its variations. You can really stretch the clave around so long as you remember to keep it in the right direction (2-3 or 3-2).

[Paradiddle my snizzle]

I've heard that salsa means "sauce" and is a specific style where you blend everything together, hence the name sauce. Have i been BS'ed?

[Wile E. Coyote]

I've heard that salsa means "sauce" and is a specific style where you blend everything together, hence the name sauce. Have i been BS'ed?
Hej på er finskar och danskar!

Well, I don't think the comparison with "mixing everything together" is very good.

Anyway, I like rhumba clave quite much for "latin" music. I think it's a bit funnier than son clave.

By the way, guaguancó IS rhumba. There are basicaly 3 kinds of rhumba: jambú (spelling?), guaguancó and columbia, all played with rhumba clave.

[KCDrummer]

"Salsa" is an American blanket definition for general Afro-Cuban music such as son, mambo, songo etc. Stick with the son clavé when playing Afro-Cuban styles. The rhumba clave is usually best left alone, unless you are playing an actual rhumba or guaguanco.

Samba is a Brazilian style of music. Use the bossa clavé and its variations. You can really stretch the clave around so long as you remember to keep it in the right direction (2-3 or 3-2).

Not sure I agree on either point. The rhumba clave fits with the Montuno pattern usually played by piano, as well as with the Songo beats that have become so popular in the States because of cats like Weckl and El Negro.

For the Brazilian stuff, the term "clave" is not really used in Brazilian music. "Clave" is Spanish for "key". "Partido Alto", the rhythm that Samba and Bossa Nova are based on, has been referred to (by Americans) as "Brazilian Clave", but this leads one to believe that the 5-note Cuban clave pattern can be applied to Brazilian music, which is not the case. Clave and Partido Alto are two completely different rhythms with different histories from different corners of the world.

[Deathmetalconga]

Not sure I agree on either point. The rhumba clave fits with the Montuno pattern usually played by piano, as well as with the Songo beats that have become so popular in the States because of cats like Weckl and El Negro.

For the Brazilian stuff, the term "clave" is not really used in Brazilian music. "Clave" is Spanish for "key". "Partido Alto", the rhythm that Samba and Bossa Nova are based on, has been referred to (by Americans) as "Brazilian Clave", but this leads one to believe that the 5-note Cuban clave pattern can be applied to Brazilian music, which is not the case. Clave and Partido Alto are two completely different rhythms with different histories from different corners of the world.

Both Cuban and Brazilian music have their roots in west Africa, from the Yoruba people in what is now Nigeria. There are many similarities between the music and the religions (Santeria and Candomble) and also many differences.

Salsa does cover a broad range of music but the son clave is used most often (tap-tap--tap-taptap) in Cuban music.

www.terrasonus.com

[KCDrummer]

Both Cuban and Brazilian music have their roots in west Africa, from the Yoruba people in what is now Nigeria. There are many similarities between the music and the religions (Santeria and Candomble) and also many differences.

Salsa does cover a broad range of music but the son clave is used most often (tap-tap--tap-taptap) in Cuban music.

www.terrasonus.com

Of course there are similarities, I just meant that these two rhythms are not interchangable. I know they both have roots in West Africa, but they mixed and mingled with different traditions and influences--Afro-Cuban with Carribean and Mexican and Brazilian with Portugese and Western European. With modern notation, some of the patterns may appear similar on paper, but their inflections and articulations and articulations are very different. They each have a "swing" all their own.

Also, when you play these rhythms on drumset, you are trying to emulate the sounds and timbres of the instruments that are traditionally used, which are different for each--timbales, cowbells, congas and claves for Afro-Cuban and ganza, tamborim, surdo and cuica for Brazilian.

[abe]

Sorry for my mistake!
Well, generaly my question is what to play on samba or on most popular types of salsa...
but I have seen that other guys get this kind of answers:'' Listen a lot of this music and by the time you'll feel it'' or ''it's not possible to write it''
I need just some basic info of what accents are most popular in those styles.

[Paradiddle my snizzle]

I'm currently reading through Tito Puente's "Drumming with the mambo king" and he says: "The Rumba...people confuse that word with Rhumba with an 'H', a slower commercial style that Xavier Cugat used to play-tunes like Begin the Beguine"

And i just saw this now as i was going to close the book after getting the above qoute. The salsa is a american made up brand name, but it does mean sauce in spanish, and Tito used to tell the audience; now were going to play salsa, and the audience went uuuhh WOW uhuuh, and then they played a mambo like they always have, lol...

[Paradiddle my snizzle]

Something more from the book - Son clave is used in Son, Danzón, Mambo, Son Montuno, Bolero and other styles. Rumba clave is used in the Guanguanco and Conga styles, among others.

That's what it says in the book.


PS, og hej til svenskeren!!!

[PBW]

Which clave is basic for samba and salsa beats - son clave or rhumba clave?

There's no official "samba clave" but there are some very common timelines.
eg this pattern is called "partido alto" and functions very well as a clave:

- x - - x - x - x - x - - x - x

You can also reverse the direction to suit the tune if required:

x - x - - x - x - x - - x - x -

Sometimes it's played on multiple sounds, eg agogo bell, or neck and mouth of cowbell, or tones and slaps on conga:

x = high o = low

- x - - o - o - o - x - - o - o

Another really common timeline is bossa clave, which can also be played forward or reverse:

x - - x - - x - - - x - - x - -

or

- - x - - x - - x - - x - - x -

The bossa is identical to 3/2 son clave but with the last note shifted 1/16th later - it's this syncopation that helps give it a funky "brazilian" edge that you can't get from using the son clave.

Or here's a really common tamborim line from samba batucada that also functions well as a timeline:

- x - x - x x - x - x - x x - x


As for salsa, most tunes use son clave either in 3/2 or 2/3 direction

x - - x - - x - - - x - x - - - (3/2)

- - x - x - - - x - - x - - x - (2/3)

[Wile E. Coyote]

Something more from the book - Son clave is used in Son, Danzón, Mambo, Son Montuno, Bolero and other styles. Rumba clave is used in the Guanguanco and Conga styles, among others.

That's what it says in the book.


PS, og hej til svenskeren!!!
Yes, well, guaguancó is only one kind of rhumba, but of course it is on rhumba clave.

P.S. Jag är fakstiskt inte svensk, bara bor där. Läser på musikhögskolan i Gbg.

[PBW]

Yes, well, guaguancó is only one kind of rhumba, but of course it is on rhumba clave.


Rumba Columbia uses a clave derived from the 6/8 bell as clave

the 6/8 bell.: x - x - x x - x - x - x

the 6/8 clave: x - x - - x - x - x - -

The "rumba clave" is originally derived from this 6/8 clave - it's the same pattern, but in "4" rather than "6".

Rumba clave: x - - x - - - x - - x - x - - -

Rumba Yambu uses son clave.

btw "rhumba" with an "h" is actually a dance (as in tango, or foxtrot, or waltz) , not in the slightest bit connected with the Cuban "rumba" that I'm talking about here.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Rumba Yambu uses son clave.

btw "rhumba" with an "h" is actually a dance (as in tango, or foxtrot, or waltz) , not in the slightest bit connected with the Cuban "rumba" that I'm talking about here.

Thanks for those ones man! I would have bet my life that yambú was on rumba clave.

I thought "rhumba" was the english spelling for rumba :)

[Garvin]

Which clave is basic for samba and salsa beats - son clave or rhumba clave?

Yes there are losts of different claves and lots of history behind them. Your actual question of "which is basic" for the named styles tells me that you may be approaching this music for the first time, or have limited experience with it. Samba and Salsa are two different things. There are a range of "Samba Clave" just as there are a range of "Salsa Claves". If you are actually playing with a group that can tell the difference, then they should be able to tell you. I asked Phil Maturano (on his thread) about how serious the drummer should be about clave when playing with outsiders. He basically said that if you are the only one that knows what it is, then it's a waste of time to be the "clave police" among an entire band. If you want to play clave in the music, just don't let it get in the way of the song. I think that implying clave helps when there is some consciousness of it among the rest of the band, but if you are just forcing it to be there then right or wrong, it's just going to sound bad.

If you listen to lots of modern Salsa (not latin jazz) for dancing, you actually hear that they switch between 2-3 and 3-2 in the montuno sections. It's actually kind of funny to watch inexperienced dancers get confused when that happens, but it's kind of a hip thing that the modern composers have been doing (for like 15-20 years). Same goes for the rumba/son thing as well. Don't let the clave concept over power the music! It's a simple element, don't make it too complicated.