John Bonham

[k_50]

On that kit I'm pretty sure he used a 12x14 (it's not a 10x14 and I don't think he used a 12x15 before the stainless steel kit), which was mounted using both a Rogers Swivomatic bass drum mount and a snare stand.

[Class A Drummer]

12 x 15 i think. its huge. maybe bigger maybe smaller.

[harryconway]

Here is where history (as recorded) is a little vague. His clear maple kit, as listed by all those people who make lists, states that drum to be a 14x12. I don't quite know how that came to be. 14x10 is the standard. 15x12 is the standard. I own a 15x12, which is what I'm gonna use in my big size drum kit. It looks like a 15x12 to me. On a Rogers swivo. tom mount (usual mod. for back in the day). My favorite Bonzo kit, regardless of what size the tom is. Love natural wood.

[dothecrunge]

It's 12x15. The tom was first placed on a Ludwig Atlas snare stand but later he added a Roger's Swivo Matic tom-mount while still keeping the snare stand there for support.

Green sparkle was 10x14.
Amber Vista Lite was was 10x14.
Steel kit-back to 12x15.

[MSTRKRFT]

^ So It's a 12x 15 eh... I wonder why Ludwig is selling the Maple Classic in exactly the same size as his drums EXCEPT the 12x15 tom? (In the maple package it's 12x14)

[Bonham to the moon]

ya but theres no snare stand....its mounted on the bass....im thinking its a 14X12.....bonham didnt use a 15 inch until later in the zeppelin days

you can obviously see that its a 15 inch drum, it doesnt take knowledge of bonham to guess that.

So It's a 12x 15 eh... I wonder why Ludwig is selling the Maple Classic in exactly the same size as his drums EXCEPT the 12x15 tom? (In the maple package it's 12x14)

well becuase as you can see he had that same kit, but with a couple of different tom tom sizes, i wouldnt think that the 15 inch would be the most popular.

[Dannar]

The one pictured is a 14x12
The Green and Amber kits has 14x10
The Stainless steel kit had 15x12

I had heard this several times, but here is the only solid "proof" I have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bonham#Gear

This kit is identical in sizes to Carmine Appice's drum set that he was using at the same time, and he has said it was 14 not a 15, that too is about as good as verification gets.

[harryconway]

So there you have it. It's obviously a 15x12, unless you believe the lists posted on the internet (and information posted on the internet is never wrong, right?), which then would make it obviously a 14x12. Glad that got cleared up. Here's a link to a picture of the new maple reissue. http://www.drumcentral.com/drum_sets_40.htm maybe someone can do computer scale voodoo to figure this out.

[MSTRKRFT]

^ The picture with Bonham looks so much shorter then the tom in that picture.

[harryconway]

Which leads me to believe that it is a 15x12. The debate over this tom has been going on for about 20 years.

[Bonham to the moon]

im telling your right now, dont go by whats posted on the internet. You can clearly see that that is not a 14 inch tom. Most of us, including me have a 14 inch tom, and clearly its not as big as that.

[franklinj]

A 15"x12"? Damn, thats a big mounted tom. I always thought his setup (tom-wise) was 13 16 18, but I guess I was wrong.

[pdp 9091]

once and for all.....i found a site with all of bonhams kits....every single one each with all the specs

now look closeley at the picture (the congas in the background)....the following info mentions the congas so this info is about this kit:::

Bonham's first Endorsement kit from Ludwig was in 1969. Carmine Appice got him a Ludwig Endorsement by personally ringing the Ludwig factory.

Ludwig, Finish-Thermo-Gloss Natural Maple
14"x26" x2 Bass Drums-model #-926L
Cymbal Mounts-model #-1372C
Bass drum spurs were 2 sets of Ludwig Disappearing spurs-model #-1303C on each drum.
12"x14" Tom-Custom Order**
16"x16" Floor Tom-model # 950L
16"x18" Floor Tom-model # 952L (this was added later on)
6.5"x14" Chrome Supra-Phonic Snare Drum-model # 402

He also used a pair of conga drums. (look in the picture...theres clearly congas)

**For years I thought his tom was a 12"x15" but Todd Trent from Ludwig told me it was 12"x14" not a 12"x15" (Thanks Todd!)

check it out for yourself

http://www.griptoad.com/JBKITS.html

[MSTRKRFT]

^ Not so sure, because this site is called " Lugwigdrummers", and they say this;

Bonham's first Endorsement kit he got from Ludwig was in 1969. Carmine Appice got him a Ludwig Endorsement by personally ringing the Ludwig factory. The sizes were as follows:

14"x26" Bass Drum x2 with Cymbal Mount
12"x15" Tom
16"x16" Floor Tom
16"x18" Floor Tom- he added this later on
6.5"x14" Chrome Supra-Phonic Snare Drum
Finish was Natural Maple Thermo-gloss

[fourstringdrums]

you can obviously see that its a 15 inch drum, it doesnt take knowledge of bonham to guess that.



well becuase as you can see he had that same kit, but with a couple of different tom tom sizes, i wouldnt think that the 15 inch would be the most popular.

Look at it in comparison to the first floor tom, it's a 14.

[pdp 9091]

^ Not so sure, because this site is called " Lugwigdrummers", and they say this;

Bonham's first Endorsement kit he got from Ludwig was in 1969. Carmine Appice got him a Ludwig Endorsement by personally ringing the Ludwig factory. The sizes were as follows:

14"x26" Bass Drum x2 with Cymbal Mount
12"x15" Tom
16"x16" Floor Tom
16"x18" Floor Tom- he added this later on
6.5"x14" Chrome Supra-Phonic Snare Drum
Finish was Natural Maple Thermo-gloss


well on the site i posted...the guy thought it was a 12X15 (kind of looks like one after i look at it more) but he contacted ludwig and comfirmed it was a 12X14 instead of a 12X15

[harryconway]

im telling your right now, dont go by whats posted on the internet. You can clearly see that that is not a 14 inch tom. Most of us, including me have a 14 inch tom, and clearly its not as big as that.
So what you're saying is it's smaller than a 14x12?

[Bonzo91]

12 x 14 That is what that tom is.

[Bonham to the moon]

beats the heck outta me, thing looks like 15 inches

[rendezvous_drummer]

that there is a cigarette in his mouth

[pcmckay]

If John Bonham were alive today I think he would be embarassed of all of this worship of him that is going on. Everything that I have read about him he appeared to be a very laid back and a humble man . He would never claim to be the greatest drummer of all time, he was absolutely amazed by Buddy Rich and Billy Cobham just to name a few. Was he a technical wizard? No. But the style that he created was incredible and only he could play like that. He was for the most part self taught, never studied but had a natural ability that was complete genius. He was my biggest influence and the reason why I became a drummer. Do I think he was the greatest of all time? Of course not, but his playing moved me and spoke to me. Considering his background of not being a trained musician and cutting out a piece of music history for himself is a great testiment of the mans talent, and skill. John Bonham along with Bill Ward of Black Sabbath and Ian Paice were pioneers of what we now consider to be hard rock/Heavy Metal drumming. Are there drummers in this style of music that have surpassed the three drummers previously mentioned? Yes, and there will be others. But they would not be where they are today without the guys like Bonham who paved the way.

[harryconway]

that there is a cigarette in his mouth
RD, priceless quote. Bravo.

[Stu_Strib]

Well I've owned 3 drumsets with a 14x12 hanging tom, and that looks to be the same proportions. It definitely ISN'T a 14x10.

Perhaps it is a 15, but you guys definitely have no credibility claiming so assuredly that it is for sure a 15. Just because you think of Bonham and his big sound doesn't mean the drum is a big 15 like you want it to be.

I watched the Zeppelin DVD with that kit, and it appears to be the same size as his snare, which I'm going to guess is NOT 15". But hey, what do I know?

Has anyone tried asking the Ochletree guy on here?

[harryconway]

Well certainly I'm not claiming anything for certain, other than this debate has been going on for about 20 years. I know in the DVD Bonham's wearing a tank top. And Paul was barefoot crossing the street so he must be dead.

[pcmckay]

Well I've owned 3 drumsets with a 14x12 hanging tom, and that looks to be the same proportions. It definitely ISN'T a 14x10.

Perhaps it is a 15, but you guys definitely have no credibility claiming so assuredly that it is for sure a 15. Just because you think of Bonham and his big sound doesn't mean the drum is a big 15 like you want it to be.

I watched the Zeppelin DVD with that kit, and it appears to be the same size as his snare, which I'm going to guess is NOT 15". But hey, what do I know?

Has anyone tried asking the Ochletree guy on here?

It's a 12" x 14" tom. I am pretty certain he did not use a 15" tom until the stainless steel kit.

[pdp 9091]

It's a 12" x 14" tom. I am pretty certain he did not use a 15" tom until the stainless steel kit.


yes exactly people....thats what ive been trying to say....i gave u guys proof before from a guy from the ludwig company...just look back at page 13.

[CooManChu]

If John Bonham were alive today I think he would be embarassed of all of this worship of him that is going on.
Maybe some the worship bothered him when he was alive too? I don't know, but things did seem to eat away at him off the bandstand.

[firesticks]

one of the most overrated drummers on earth.

[NUTHA JASON]

worst post ever.

i think there are a long line of drummers in front of john for that title. what a weird claim to make.

j

[NUTHA JASON]

firesticks sent me this PM and then dropped off the map:

first i was told that this site is built around 16 year olds
and it sure shows it. 2 i'm a pro drummer and i dont owe
you or anybody on this site any explanations PERIOD! This
site isn't for mature musicians/drummers. i simply stated my opinion: Alex Van Halen is without any doubt a better drummer than John Bonham.

smells worse than under a billy goat's bridge.

j

[pdp 9091]

one of the most overrated drummers on earth.


this is trolling if i ever saw it

a) no info to back up his opinion

b) leaves after hes shut down by nutha

[low-tech]

definately not overrated, he always played what zepplin songs needed, not using a band as a platform to show off. he changed the drumset for sure. people wanted bigger,double kit sets,gongs you name it after seeing him.

i think his influence is like hendrix, its so sublime that some people dont notice it. when you walk into the guitar center drumroom and hear someone play splits<tom,tom,bass,bass. real fast> or do a simple but loud triplet roll around the toms its like, you know bodham didnt invents these things but just stamped them into every drummers unconsious. thats the way i feel.

his playing was the impetus for metal drumming. his emphisis for a louder, more aggressive style and playing basic but incredibly solid beats and fills<for the most part, there are however moments where he rips during song> can be heard in lombardo and ulrich and alot of early thrash drummers and still carrys on to the more extreme drummers

[ewanlaing]

bonham isn't one of the MOST overrated drummers, but i do think he is a bit overratted by certain people. too many people spurt out claims like "bonham is god" and "there has never been or never will be a better rock drummer" and thats an overratted claim to make about any drummer.
but on the list of overratted drummers, bonham wouldn't make it to the top 100,000.

[intooder]

definately not overrated, he always played what zepplin songs needed, not using a band as a platform to show off. he changed the drumset for sure. people wanted bigger,double kit sets,gongs you name it after seeing him.

i think his influence is like hendrix, its so sublime that some people dont notice it. when you walk into the guitar center drumroom and hear someone play splits<tom,tom,bass,bass. real fast> or do a simple but loud triplet roll around the toms its like, you know bodham didnt invents these things but just stamped them into every drummers unconsious. thats the way i feel.

his playing was the impetus for metal drumming. his emphisis for a louder, more aggressive style and playing basic but incredibly solid beats and fills<for the most part, there are however moments where he rips during song> can be heard in lombardo and ulrich and alot of early thrash drummers and still carrys on to the more extreme drummers
Very well put. I totally agree on the analogy with hendrix, as well.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

firesticks sent me this PM and then dropped off the map:



smells worse than under a billy goat's bridge.

j

How hilarious. He's saying this website is built around 16 year olds and proves his immaturity by not being able to explain his opinion. I love people like this, they make my life worth living.

[ewanlaing]

i think theres too many peolpe here anyway that just say "yeah, well you're just a teenager. harumph!" when they can't think up a valid defence.
i was watching the zeepelin dvd again. thats a high tomtom he plays on. i don't think i could manage it that high.

[mattsmith]

i think theres too many peolpe here anyway that just say "yeah, well you're just a teenager. harumph!" when they can't think up a valid defence.
i was watching the zeepelin dvd again. thats a high tomtom he plays on. i don't think i could manage it that high.
I think its because there are a number of people our age who seem more like imbeciles than most. They're the ones who are into all this ridiculous fan boy stuff and act like they are experts on every subject, even to the point of standing down obviously more experienced people. I think one of the reasons a genius like elvin4ever left forums was because he got tired of arguing with people who should have been listening to him instead.

Now does this mean there aren't some ridiculous older people on this forum? You bet there are. But as in life they get a pass and we don't. I accepted this a long time ago and just keep going. If you know your stuff about a certain matter they have to listen to you sooner or later.

[harryconway]

That "firesticks" cat was somethin' special, that's for sure. Tried his best at rousting my ire on an Alex Van Halen thing. And it's so funny, 'cause I'm from Pasadena and only a few years younger than the Van Halen's, seen them so many times for free in the early 70's and if there's anything I know about, it's about Van Halen. I was buyin' rock albums the same time they were, and a month later they were doin' covers off that album. So I think I might know what influences Alex had. A buddy of mine was the cat who turned then on to the song "Ice Cream Man". Yeah, that "firesticks" dude, wow.

[NUTHA JASON]

ewanlaingi think theres too many peolpe here anyway that just say "yeah, well you're just a teenager. harumph!" when they can't think up a valid defence.

and in fact i really like the way teens think. they aren't always the stereotypical teenager. many teens are open minded, fresh eared, serious people who lack the crippling ego of the adult who has seen it all and will not change.



Quote from a PM:
Originally Posted by firesticks
hey man from one drummer to the next i find that alex van halen has a much better grove than bonham also his timing was and is dam near perfect, listen to the songs and you will here more than one stye of playing in his music everything from metal,jazz blues and swing, i have found that bonham mostly stays in a comfort zone of one style. there is a drum solo on van halens cd balance, listen to it. if you would put it on the site. i'm not bashing bonham i'm just stating as an all around drummer alex vh is by far the superior drummer.
great country you live in i was in london 4 years a go for 2 months.


you are entitled to your opinions. but as admin of this site i have seen plenty of hero worshippers come and go. i love alex's drumming and bonzo's. bonham plays very differnet grooves across a broad spectrum of styles. he is very versatile ... i think your knowledge, based on your earlier posts, of his playing is very limited. i think it is wrong to rank and compare drummers in the way that you do. bonham died, alex is still alive...its a bit of a disadvantage. bonham influences more drummers today than alex does.
calm down on the alex is the superior drummer stuff and accept that bonham is as great as most people say he was.

j

[pdp 9091]

Originally Posted by firesticks
hey man from one drummer to the next i find that alex van halen has a much better grove than bonham also his timing was and is dam near perfect, listen to the songs and you will here more than one stye of playing in his music everything from metal,jazz blues and swing, i have found that bonham mostly stays in a comfort zone of one style.

bonham only has one style....how is that possible...ask him this.,...

do any of the following grooves in these songs sonund similar at all
-achilles last stand
-fool in the rain
-i cant quit you baby
-the rover
-going to califronia

----------------------------------------------------------------

-achilles last stand - metal/hard rock groove
-fool in the rain- shuffle groove
- i cant quit you baby - blues groove
-the rover - solid groove
-going to california - no groove

[fixmejesus]

bonham only has one style....how is that possible...ask him this.,...

do any of the following grooves in these songs sonund similar at all
-achilles last stand
-fool in the rain
-i cant quit you baby
-the rover
-going to califronia

----------------------------------------------------------------

-achilles last stand - metal/hard rock groove
-fool in the rain- shuffle groove
- i cant quit you baby - blues groove
-the rover - solid groove
-going to california - no groove

This proves that we drummers should play more than spend time on the internet chatting about things!

[pdp 9091]

This proves that we drummers should play more than spend time on the internet chatting about things!


how do u say that....im just proving a point.....

isnt that what this site is for...chatting and discussing

[ewanlaing]

i like it when people have suggested listening posts. it's educational.
how often did bonham use his gong? are there any good examples on the led zepplin dvd? looks like it would be difficult to incorportate tastefully.

[fixmejesus]

how do u say that....im just proving a point.....

isnt that what this site is for...chatting and discussing

Heck, I agree with you, I'm just saying we drummers a better a drumming than agreeing with each other.

[pdp 9091]

i like it when people have suggested listening posts. it's educational.
how often did bonham use his gong? are there any good examples on the led zepplin dvd? looks like it would be difficult to incorportate tastefully.

in the song remains the same he lit his mallet on fire and the gong stand on fire at the end....but on the dvd he crashed it at the end of kashmir

[harryconway]

Another great example of Bonham's influence. I don't recall anyone before him lighting their kits (or pieces of) on fire. Sure, maybe somebody did. But didn't get nearly the exposure John did. But I saw Alex V.H. light his cymbals on fire many years later.

[low-tech]

aaahh. the who where kind of the pioneers of gear destruction,speaker blowing feedback endings

i think kieth moon even detonated his bass drum on a tv show, he even took out the guitarist while doing it

[bonham990]

hmm... o ok what i've noticed on here is alot of people trying to say : Bonham is overated, Bonham isnt that good blah blah blah. Let's face the fact Bonham has influenced more drummers then anyone else, maybe even Buddy Rich. Artists that played in the same time period even say he was the greatest rock drummer ever. Billy Idol said " Rock 'n' Roll died when John Bonham died". Alex Van Halen would never be able to match John Bonham, he's just not powerfull enough, his drumming just didnt have the umph! that Johns had. I have some Alex Van halen solos and John Bonham solo's. John was much more creative the Alex. Alex was a great drummer but face it he was very repititive in alot of Van Halens songs. After reading John's biography "A thunder of drums" John never used the same beat twice he liked to be as original as possible. So to get to the facts John Bonham was the greatest Rock 'n' Roll drummer ever to play and always will be, no one will ever be able to match his loud, powerfull right foot triplets. Sure people can play them but not with the same amount of power. And his creative nature is just outstanding. Listen to Led Zeppelin's songs they all have there own personality.

[harryconway]

aaahh. the who where kind of the pioneers of gear destruction,speaker blowing feedback endings

i think kieth moon even detonated his bass drum on a tv show, he even took out the guitarist while doing it
Gear distruction is one thing. Pyrotechnics something else, unless the fire happens to consume your gear, which usually happens unplanned.

[fixmejesus]

hmm... o ok what i've noticed on here is alot of people trying to say : Bonham is overated, Bonham isnt that good blah blah blah. Let's face the fact Bonham has influenced more drummers then anyone else, maybe even Buddy Rich. Artists that played in the same time period even say he was the greatest rock drummer ever. Billy Idol said " Rock 'n' Roll died when John Bonham died". Alex Van Halen would never be able to match John Bonham, he's just not powerfull enough, his drumming just didnt have the umph! that Johns had. I have some Alex Van halen solos and John Bonham solo's. John was much more creative the Alex. Alex was a great drummer but face it he was very repititive in alot of Van Halens songs. After reading John's biography "A thunder of drums" John never used the same beat twice he liked to be as original as possible. So to get to the facts John Bonham was the greatest Rock 'n' Roll drummer ever to play and always will be, no one will ever be able to match his loud, powerfull right foot triplets. Sure people can play them but not with the same amount of power. And his creative nature is just outstanding. Listen to Led Zeppelin's songs they all have there own personality.

The fact that most of the rock beats and grooves heard today, not to mention some r&b and rap, are direct ripoffs of Bonham proves the above post. We really do not hear much of Buddys stuff in these genres.

[harryconway]

hmm... o ok what i've noticed on here is alot of people trying to say : Bonham is overated, Bonham isnt that good blah blah blah. Let's face the fact Bonham has influenced more drummers then anyone else, maybe even Buddy Rich. Artists that played in the same time period even say he was the greatest rock drummer ever. After reading John's biography "A thunder of drums" John never used the same beat twice he liked to be as original as possible.
Very good point. Rock back then was not about note-per-note perfection. Sure, you had to play the song so that at least the audience recognized it, but concert crowds(fans) weren't so AR as people are now.

[pdp 9091]

So to get to the facts......no one will ever be able to match his loud, powerfull right foot triplets. Sure people can play them but not with the same amount of power.


uhh have u ever heard jojo mayer......his kick skills surpasses bonhams by far.....bonham is great at kick triplets but definatly people have matched it and surpassed it.

just watch this mayer video and ull see what i mean

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/jojomayerbasss.html

with the roll between hands and feet.....
what bonham does with 2 hands....hes does with 1 hand in this video

[Thirteen]

just wanted to chime in here.

Bonzo rules!

Powerful player.

Great use of dynamics.

[pcmckay]

uhh have u ever heard jojo mayer......his kick skills surpasses bonhams by far.....bonham is great at kick triplets but definatly people have matched it and surpassed it.

just watch this mayer video and ull see what i mean

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/jojomayerbasss.html

with the roll between hands and feet.....
what bonham does with 2 hands....hes does with 1 hand in this video

Yes, Jojo Mayer is an amazing drummer. But what I think you are over looking here is that Bonham's foot was just as fast if not faster, without using the foot slide or heel toe technique that Jojo uses. Bonham used the toe technique or the ball of his foot on a Ludwig Speed King, not one of these state of the art pedals today. Most of the pedals out there today the technology is so good that you can't help but get doubles and tripletts with almost little or no effort.

[pdp 9091]

Yes, Jojo Mayer is an amazing drummer. But what I think you are over looking here is that Bonham's foot was just as fast if not faster, without using the foot slide or heel toe technique that Jojo uses. Bonham used the toe technique or the ball of his foot on a Ludwig Speed King, not one of these state of the art pedals today. Most of the pedals out there today the technology is so good that you can't help but get doubles and tripletts with almost little or no effort.


ya i really didnt think of that at first but still...bonham had great foot speed but i think that there are a few drummers that are a little faster.

[pcmckay]

ya i really didnt think of that at first but still...bonham had great foot speed but i think that there are a few drummers that are a little faster.

I agree there are a lot of drummers out there today that in my opinon are doing mind boggling things with double and single bass drums, Jojo fits in that category. I don't mean to undermine Jojo, he is probably one of my favorite drummers out today. But this is the problem with trying to compare drummers of different decades. Considering the equipment that Bonham had it is incredible what he could do, nothing compared to the technology of today. Imagine what Bonham could have done with an Axis pedal! It's kind of like Jimi Hendrix, guitar technology today is unreal compared to the late 60's. Imagine what Jimi could do playing on a rig that we have today.

[NUTHA JASON]

which is exactly why you cannot compare jojo to john. thirty years ago he was legendary on a bass drum...given his progress and that he had lived until today one can only imagine what he could have done. he was great in his time and jojo is great in his time now.


Originally Posted by bonham990
So to get to the facts......no one will ever be able to match his loud, powerfull right foot triplets. Sure people can play them but not with the same amount of power.


it is precisely this sort of unrealistic sentimentality that causes problems. i know with certainty that there are thousands of people on the planet right now who are better in every way than john bonham at single pedal technique. if anything i think this is a positive reflection of the effect he had.

j

ps: because we all should: see further ... stand on the shoulders of giants.

[finnhiggins]

which is exactly why you cannot compare jojo to john. thirty years ago he was legendary on a bass drum...given his progress and that he had lived until today one can only imagine what he could have done. he was great in his time and jojo is great in his time now.


I'd also suggest that while Bonham's right food was great by standards at the time for rock drummers there were also a number of jazz guys around at the time who had some absolutely blazing right foot chops going. I've mentioned him repeatedly, but how many of you young Bonhamites are actually familiar with Tony Williams?

[fixmejesus]

What we can celebrate is that Bonham took Rock and Roll to another level. He took elements like those in Jazz and R&B artist you all keep talking about and integrated them into Rock and then into Heavy Metal and sparked the Gothic Rock movement. This is something the other bands and drummers at the time were lacking in.

Sure there might have been other artists as fast as Bonham with the feet, but thats not the point. Heck, tap dancers are faster with the feet supporting their weight standing up!

We elect 1 Miss USA, Universe every year even though there are still others who are just as beautiful on this planet, let alone the other planets out there.

I think it is safe to say that Bonham had the fastest right foot out there even though there might be a guy or gal or whatever from the fifth planet of cygnus that was slightly faster at the time.

[Sticktrick]

This whole debate about the speed of Johns right foot reminds me of chidren arguing about who has the strongest dad or the biggest house or something like that.

Common Bonhamides, get a break - its completely irrelevant, isn't it? Who cares, if Johns foot was faster or slower than anybody elses foot? He played good times bad times and he sounded great.

I'm sure, that thousands of drummers can play that song, but the one on the record and in the band was John. Who gives a sh*t about how fast you can move your hands or feet, if you cannot turn it into music? John could, and thats what he was all about for me.

Same goes for any drummer I know. I don't care a bit about tech, if a drummer cannot use it musically. Thats why I'm a fan of Tony, Vinnie, Steve, JoJo or John - they have/had great technique and are/were able to turn it into great music. And besides: Tech is NOT only about speed. Its about sound, groove and control. Speed is a nice sideeffect of good technique.

Just my two cents on this.

[theduke86]

Sticktrick- You're a clever guy.
Who cares about John's right foot speed? He had a pretty mean right foot- but as stated already I can easily name ten-fifteen other drummers before or during his time who had a faster right foot. Technique, chops, whatever is something that doesn't matter to the quality of the drumming. If there's a technical weakpoint, okay, sure. Not like Bohnam had one. Anyways, his drumming is great- regardless of who has a better right foot (which drummers such as Tony Williams, Art Blakey, Buddy Rich, Billy Cobham, Elvin Jones or Carmine Appice or whoever did have) his drumming stands on it's own as absolutely legendary. Regardless of who had faster hands, faster right foot, shorter hair, nicer clothes or whatever.
The point I'm trying to get at is that technique is only a means to access your creativity. It's not the be all end all. You can STILL create amazing drum parts without having the godliest right foot in the known universe. This is one of the reasons why Bonzo was such a legendary drummer. Technique is really amusical- it has nothing to do with making great drum parts. Look at Steve Jordan. Has he ever played busy music? I'm not sure, I haven't heard it. He's one of the most in demand and awesome drummers today because he has great parts. Same with Bohnam. Was he technically as virtuoistic as some of the above drummers? No. Were the drummers above better drummers than him? Depending on who you talk to, yes or no, but I love Bohnam and he's right up there with those drummers (even further than most) on my favorites list. It doesn't even matter who had more chops to me.
You'll notice if someone said something like "Elvin Jones is a better polyrhythmic player than Tony Williams" I'd probably say something like "Yes, you're right, but who REALLY cares?". Then, a discussion would follow about how he was a better polyrhythmic player than than Tony. I wouldn't ever try to assert that Tony could smoke Elvin, even if Tony was a better rock drummer, had better hands, had better licks, whatever. They're both fantastic, and I love both almost equally at different times. They're different, and they stand on their own- I don't ever feel a need to defend Tony Williams, or John Bohnam. I know what and who those two, or any drummer, are. I know what they aren't as well. I have a feeling that some of these really popular drummers are greatly overhyped by some, and it doesn't do them justice.
J- That's a great quote, everyone in every field should have that attitude, I feel. Just because you're building on someone doesn't mean they're not giants. Their work stands by itself, it doesn't even need defending.

[Sticktrick]

Yeah Duke, you're right with what you say.

I'd like to stretch my point a little further and get away from Hands and Feet. If I REALLY think about the qualities that I appreciate most in all my drumming heroes, I think that the two most important physical parts are not Hands and Feet, but Ears and the Heart.

THATS what it takes to be a great drummer. You need big ears to really notice what the other guys in the band are doing and to hear what they demand from your drumming. You need to pay attention to all the small details of their playing. You need these ears to determine if you're too loud, too soft, too far laid back, etc. Also to realize if the sound you're getting from your drums is the way you want it to be.
You also need a big heart, because if the music you're playing is not touching you there and if all you play doesn't come from your heart, then you will be a brain-driven drummer that no one will want to listen to, because you will never ever be able to touch someone elses heart with your playing.

Hands and Feet are just the limbs that execute these things, but they should always come from your heart and lock in with what you hear with your ears.

And now back to John, Tony, Elvin or any other true musical great drummer: They all certainly had big ears and their playing really came from their heart. If all these crazy Bonhamides that are just talking about his right foot, reduce John to this foot, then they obviously just didn't get, what he was all about: Music, Soul, Heart and Ears. End of the Story.

...

Oh yeah... and I forgot about this: Balls. Thats what it also takes.

[CooManChu]

Yeah, I like where this is all heading. We're getting off the bull of being the fastest and getting towards the more musically complimenting.

Maybe there are quicker drummers or drummers with more chops or whatever, but who out there fits into his/her band as well as Bonham fit into Zeppelin? Actually, the whole band fit so well together, much of what they did and do outside of Zeppelin falls short in my opinion. For instance, and granted is was just a session job and an album I love, but did Dave Weckl's playing with Plant and occasionally Page on the Honeydrippers Vol. 1 album inspire anyone to rush out and pick up some drum sticks, work on vocals, or a buy a new guitar? Who would say that Bonham has more chops than Weckl (not me), but he certainly has chops: there is still alot of clean technique involved in the playing of Bonham.

Zeppelin as a band was one where each member was an excellent musician, but in addition to that, they played well together. Geez, there are so many great drummers, but not all of these guys are playing in groups where the rest of the members take care of their own individual musical business as well as the members of Zeppelin did.

BTW, I saw a post earlier that sort of bashed Plant a little. Plant is an excellent musician. His rhythm, dynamics, his feel for lyrics, the way he chops words and holds phrases out - you can tell he likes to cut his stuff from the same cloth as guys like James Brown. Plant and Bonham gave Zeppelin it's sound and feel as much as anyone has given a band anything.

Another thing I'd add is that Bonham wasn't a drummer who was out cooking a quiche when simple srambled eggs would do. First, he did what the music called for and what his band needed - throwing a little personal spice and taste in at the same time and showing off occasionally just to make sure no one forgot he was back there helping to hold down the fort with Jones.

When I think about a good drummer when compared to someone else, I don't just look at a person's playing. Most of us can move our hands and feet pretty fast in a coordinated effort over our instrument. However, how many of us and how many of the drummers that get mentioned as being "better" than Bonham can help create and sit in a pocket as tightly, be musically supportive, stand out in a group's sound without being completely dominant, and fit into the musical situations in which we find ourselves as well or better than Bonham did. If I could do that, I'd be pretty happy even if I didn't have broken bass drum triplets at quarter note = 180 or a 4 voice polythm going on.

I'm not saying that every person that plays simple stuff necessarily falls into the Bonham category as far as feel and such either. There are alot of professional recordings where the stuff is as simple or simpler than some of Bonham's playing that does not even come close to being as tight or supportive or fit into the group's tapestry of sound as well as Bonham's playing fits into Zeppelin's or give a band such a fat, comfortable, broad base over which to play. Charlie Watt's is play's pretty straight ahead ideas. Can anyone imagine his sound as part of Zeppelin? I can't, but he fits in whith the Stones very well.

Bottom Line
I wonder if a few replies to this post by could possibly give a list of drummers people think sat or sit so well with the band or bands they play/played in? I'd be much more interested in investigating and listening to drummers within groups on that list than I would a list of drummers who have faster feet or the quickest paradiddles or whatever. Who do you think fits in as well as or bettern than Bonham did with Zeppelin? Whose drum sound do you think is as signature as Bonham's and at the same time is backed up by a group where nearly every member's sound is as signature to the sound of the group without a single sound being completely dominant? Hit me...

Thanks in advance for any info you give.

[ewanlaing]

only guy i can think of is jimmy chamberlin. his parts just slide perfectly into pumpkins music. i was thinking of keith moon, but he almost seems a tad too obvious.

[Bonham to the moon]

I can easily name ten-fifteen other drummers before or during his time who had a faster right foot.
alrite, i can agree with most of what your saying but that statement is absolutely rediculous, please name 15 people that BEFORE OR DURING his time had a faster right foot. And please provide some examples of their playing. I pretty much exclusively listen to stuff before 1980, and i havent heard anybody touch bonham in his right foot speed, let alone power.

[fixmejesus]

alrite, i can agree with most of what your saying but that statement is absolutely rediculous, please name 15 people that BEFORE OR DURING his time had a faster right foot. And please provide some examples of their playing. I pretty much exclusively listen to stuff before 1980, and i havent heard anybody touch bonham in his right foot speed, let alone power.

I want to see this too.

Name and links, mp3s.

15 people I'm waiting for.

[finnhiggins]

alrite, i can agree with most of what your saying but that statement is absolutely rediculous, please name 15 people that BEFORE OR DURING his time had a faster right foot. And please provide some examples of their playing. I pretty much exclusively listen to stuff before 1980, and i havent heard anybody touch bonham in his right foot speed, let alone power.

And in one fell swoop, the discussion returns to the banal.

Serious, BTM - do you really, really think it is essential for your man Bonham to be The Fastest, The Most Powerful? Can't he just be an amazing musician? My favourite studio drummer around today is Matt Chamberlain. Does that mean I have to argue that his hands are better than Vinnie's? No! I just happen to like his stuff more.

So, I guess the ultimate answer is: Who cares? And if so, why?

[NUTHA JASON]

agreed finn.
i've said it before and i'll say it again... i've never been that impressed with bonzo's speed...look he was fast and powerful...but it was always his taste and musicality that struck me. you can hear that he is having fun drumming.

j

[fixmejesus]

And in one fell swoop, the discussion returns to the banal.

Serious, BTM - do you really, really think it is essential for your man Bonham to be The Fastest, The Most Powerful? Can't he just be an amazing musician? My favourite studio drummer around today is Matt Chamberlain. Does that mean I have to argue that his hands are better than Vinnie's? No! I just happen to like his stuff more.

So, I guess the ultimate answer is: Who cares? And if so, why?

I agree with you on that one reguarding Matt Chamberlain. Wonder stuff he does on the latest Morrissey album.

[Bonham to the moon]

And in one fell swoop, the discussion returns to the banal.

Serious, BTM - do you really, really think it is essential for your man Bonham to be The Fastest, The Most Powerful? Can't he just be an amazing musician? My favourite studio drummer around today is Matt Chamberlain. Does that mean I have to argue that his hands are better than Vinnie's? No! I just happen to like his stuff more.

So, I guess the ultimate answer is: Who cares? And if so, why?

well i didnt want to go back to this, but i couldnt let that go. I dont care if bonham did have the fastest right foot, but the fact is, is that he did have an extrmemly fast right foot and me being a a huge bonham fan, its completely false to say that at the time there were 15 guys that had a faster right foot. Im ready to be preoven wrong, if he can give names of 10-15 people and some examples then i'll shut up, but until then thats absolutely rediculous to say.

[theduke86]

BTTM and fixmejesus- I will PM you both because I don't want to talk about other drummers much more.
You guys are still missing the point. It doesn't even MATTER who's faster. Why split hairs about it? All are great!
I thought I'd return this discussion to John Bonham. I have a question. How do you guys all count the drum intro to Rock and Roll?

[CooManChu]

I thought I'd return this discussion to John Bonham. I have a question. How do you guys all count the drum intro to Rock and Roll?

I transcribed it as follows:

http://www.schuman-cook.com/tmp/RockandRollIntro.JPG

I'm not sure, but I think on the album version, he's stricter about playing a locked hands shuffle through the tune, but on the live stuff I think he cuts the snare down to just the backbeats and some ghosted, locked hands here and there.

As far as counting it, I think the above is the most logical. I've seen transcriptions and tabs that add a 2/4 bar or something right before the band comes in to make up for an entrance that starts right on 1 of the first bar and ends with a crash right on a downbeat when the band comes in. I definitely hear the crash on the upbeat (just before the band enters on the downbeat) plus I don't think that it's logical to have a bar of 2/4 before the band comes in when the rest of the tune is in 4/4.

Incidentally, I've seen published transcriptions that so something similar on Misty Mountain Hop. One actually adds a bar on 9/8 or something. For me, I don't think Zeppelin, even as rhythmically sound as they were, would do something like that on a tune like Misty or add a 2/4 bar before the band enters on Rock and Roll. It's far more logical to transcribe the intro with no barlines and begin counting backwards if necessary to figure out where the intro starts with respect to the band coming in. Then you end up with something like the above graphic: an entrance in the middle of a pick-up bar to a 4 bar intro - very logical, very straight forward, and very likely.

BYW, on the studio version during the verse parts, I hear a few different bass drum variations (which I have transcribed), but through it all, Bonham plays a heavier downbeat when riding on the hi-hat. I've seen transciptions that have him playing just quarters while riding on the hih-hat, but I don't hear it that way. Also, on some of the live videos, you can catch a glimpse of his stick and it's definately articulating two attacks (the downbeat and the upbeat), so the sort of two attacks for the price of one seems like a reasonable technique to employ on this shuffle groove.

Of course, I am probably totally wrong, but hopefully someone will correct me and I can amend my transcription and be better for it. :)

Thanks for the opportunity to bring this discussion back to music. Oh, and my feet are not very fast (yet), so I have to make up for it by studying the people whose music I enjoy so that someday I'll be a better musican AND my feet will be faster. :)

[Sticktrick]

I want to see this too.

Name and links, mp3s.

15 people I'm waiting for.


Read my first post. Think about it. I have a question for you: Why do you care about this? Does it make Johns accomplishments better if there aren't any drummer with a faster right foot? Does it make them worse if there are? Will you enjoy Zeppelins music more or less if you know exactly?

I still don't understand why so many people on this whole forum confuse drumming and music with sports. You wanna compete? Go play soccer or become a runner.

I also don't understand this whole "my favorite drummer is better than yours" attitude. Cut the crap guys, it's annoying as hell. There are so many great drummers.... there is so much great music....

Why argue in such pointless ways about such nonsense?

Maybe I also get this whole Discussion Forum idea wrong - that's why I left this forum for quite some time and it's the reason why I'm about to leave once more.

Finn - we'll stay in touch anyway!

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

That looks like a pretty sound transcription. Really the best way of counting it is to feel it, I can't think of a strict way of doing it personally but then again theory never has been my strong point.

For an interesting variation on the introduction, I play the off-beat snare hits as bass notes so it goes something like this:

(S) = Snare (B) = Bass

SbbSbSbbSbbSbSbbSbSbbSbSbbSbSbSbS

Something along those lines. It's too late to transcribe it properly but it sounds good if your right foot can keep up.

EDIT: StickTrick I entirely and utterly agree with you. Music is not a competition, stop making it one. BTTM I remember you used to do this all the time and it really got on my nerves.

[CooManChu]

For an interesting variation on the introduction, I play the off-beat snare hits as bass notes so it goes something like this:

(S) = Snare (B) = Bass

SbbSbSbbSbbSbSbbSbSbbSbSbbSbSbSbS

Something along those lines. It's too late to transcribe it properly but it sounds good if your right foot can keep up..
That's cool - I'll try it that way. At one time I experimented with it along those lines, but I couln't keep the feel relaxed. To be honest, I haven't tried it in quite a while and maybe it would be OK now.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I can't always get it down to be entirely fair, it's a tricky one and it's really high energy but it feels great when you pull it off. I only do it because it's the way I first listened (incorrectly) to the song. It's a great introduction, good luck with it.

[CooManChu]

Here's the intro to Mist Mountain Hop that I mentioned above as I hear it. I have the book "Best of Led Zeppelin Drums" and if I remember correctly it has a bar of 9/8 before the band comes in. The transcriber must have heard the upbeat ostenato played by Jones as coming in on the downbeat. I don't hear it that way and I think the below way is much more likely. Again, this is my own take:

http://www.schuman-cook.com/tmp/MistyMountainHopIntro.JPG

Does anyone else hear it this way or a different way?

Also, the groove Bonham plays here to me is very much like the groove he plays for Rock and Roll. The Misty groove is slower than Rock and Roll and there are no locked hands between snare and riding hi-hat, but I believe he employes that shuffle feel in riding the hi-hat where the first attack (on the downbeat) is stronger and the second attack (on the upbeat) is more of a bounce or more of a two for the price of one type thing. A very traditional thing for an R&B drummer to employ, so it's a very likely technique to be part of Bonham's repetoire in my opinion. When you watch the live stuff, you can see this attack and you can see how it's a flick of the wrist technique (sort of - it's actually easier to see or demo than to explain). His bass drum comping in both tunes is very similar as I hear it too.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I hear an anacrusis, but by definition that's the upbeat. Interesting...

[BellsOfRhymney]

It's four measures with two added beats. In your mind, you can add the two extra beats at the front, or the end. Or, if you're like me, I never count anything, ever, anyway.

[theduke86]

Coolmanchu- Those transcriptions are sweet. I never really heard rock and roll that way. I used to count it starting it on one... I think it would roll out on the and of 2 on the last bar. You're a smart guy. I dig that misty mountain hop one too.

[CooManChu]

Coolmanchu- Those transcriptions are sweet. I never really heard rock and roll that way. I used to count it starting it on one... I think it would roll out on the and of 2 on the last bar. You're a smart guy. I dig that misty mountain hop one too.
Thanks for the compliment - you said some excellent things above too - really helped get the discussion back to music which I think everyone will benefit from (oh, I sound so level headed and righteous - I'm really not!!!)

[franklinj]

Rock and Roll was transcribed in MD in a different way. It had the left and right hands playing the same thing with accents on certain notes. It also started on the and of 3. The MD one sounds pretty accurate...

[pdp 9091]

has anynody ever seen his fill near the end of achilles last stand on the dvd....amazing

[CooManChu]

Rock and Roll was transcribed in MD in a different way. It had the left and right hands playing the same thing with accents on certain notes. It also started on the and of 3. The MD one sounds pretty accurate...
I think I've seen that version or a version of that version. Personally, for me starting it on the and of 3 just doesn't seem to set as well on this intro because it doesn't come out correctly at the end without some metric adjustments being made. Plus that group of four 8th notes where the first and last are accented really seem to feel like they fall on a strong downbeat (they fall on 3 in my version).

As far as playing all the articulations in each hand (locked hands): I've played around with playing the entire intro with locked hands and accents, but it seems too weighed down that way. Plus, listening very closely to the recordings, I don't hear the hi-hat articulations on every attack like the MD transcription probably has. I really here those short spaces when he rides and accents on the hi-hat as something different than an attack made by a stick: with the partially open hi-hat, I hear a little "clatter" that could be mistaken as an attack, but sounds different than the other attacks because there is no stick articulation. This "clatter" attack comes off well to my ear when I play the intro as above.

That's not to say one is right or one is wrong - I just like mine better. I don't write for MD and I'm definitely not as qualifed to as the people who do, but I still like to think about this stuff and test it out as much as the next person.

You know, if you happen to have that transcription, I'd really like to see it. Is there a link or a way you could possibly email it or something? I can't help but wonder now... :)

Thanks franklinj.

[fixmejesus]

BTTM and fixmejesus- I will PM you both because I don't want to talk about other drummers much more.
You guys are still missing the point. It doesn't even MATTER who's faster. Why split hairs about it? All are great!
I thought I'd return this discussion to John Bonham. I have a question. How do you guys all count the drum intro to Rock and Roll?

Great, you finally got the point that we want to talk about Bonham here and not Elvin or 15 other drummers that are faster and better than Bonham. I know 15 too that are way better that I'd like to mention all from different parts of the galaxy, but we are here to talk about Bonham.

[fixmejesus]

Coolmanchu- Those transcriptions are sweet. I never really heard rock and roll that way. I used to count it starting it on one... I think it would roll out on the and of 2 on the last bar. You're a smart guy. I dig that misty mountain hop one too.

Yeah mee too. I like that too.

[fixmejesus]

has anynody ever seen his fill near the end of achilles last stand on the dvd....amazing

And then Plant does that loong oooooh which sends shivers through my body electric.

[Backbeat]

I grew up listening to and idolizing Bonham... I was in Guitar Ctr checking out cymbals on Sat and had to stop and watch dvd playing on the tv, with him going off on in my time of dying.. Bonzo rules

[pdp 9091]

And then Plant does that loong oooooh which sends shivers through my body electric.


and those thunderous fills in kashmir are great too

------------------------------------------------
by the way Bernhard....you know how you did that video clip with the aaron spears drum fill at the grammys....how you showed it and then put it in slow-mo a couple times....i suggest that u make a clip for the fill that bonzo pulls off near the end of achilles last stand on the dvd...that would be awesome if you could

[Backbeat]

What do you think of the Best of Led Zep book? I think it's a good guideline, but you have to feel it and be in total sync with your bandmates to come close to pulling it off. We don't play our medly of zep covers in front of anyone but close friends. Too much pressure. One mistake an everyone knows.

[NUTHA JASON]

lol. great posts everybody.

as a chump who reads music at the speed of a glacier i learned led zep parts differently. for rock 'n roll and also the intro fill to bonzo's montreaux i use a method i call ten pennies.
i put on the head phones (to get perfect stereo and sound) and put a pile of ten pennies on the table in front of me. then i play (on the cd - so i'm sitting still and not drumming) the target section of the song (ie the R'nR intro) with my eyes closed. each time i play it i take apenny off the pile.
next i repeat the above exercise but this time i air drum it to get a feel for the limb movement (no feet yet).
then i turn up the bass and treble and drop the mids so i can hear the bass drum as clearly as possible and do that ten times.
then only do i start trying it out on the drums. (after hearing the piece 30 times).
so its in my head by heart and my hands and feet usually follow.

j

[CooManChu]

lol. great posts everybody.

as a chump who reads music at the speed of a glacier i learned led zep parts differently. for rock 'n roll and also the intro fill to bonzo's montreaux i use a method i call ten pennies.
i put on the head phones (to get perfect stereo and sound) and put a pile of ten pennies on the table in front of me. then i play (on the cd - so i'm sitting still and not drumming) the target section of the song (ie the R'nR intro) with my eyes closed. each time i play it i take apenny off the pile.
next i repeat the above exercise but this time i air drum it to get a feel for the limb movement (no feet yet).
then i turn up the bass and treble and drop the mids so i can hear the bass drum as clearly as possible and do that ten times.
then only do i start trying it out on the drums. (after hearing the piece 30 times).
so its in my head by heart and my hands and feet usually follow.

j
That's cool - I think I try that myself too.

I just use the paper as a guide to refer back to once in a while. Also, going through the step of writing some things down (I don't write everything down) is just another exercise in seeing if what I think I'm playing or hearing is actually what I intend (in addition to recording myself playing it). The other thing the paper does is it allows me to easily communicate my understanding of something to someone else who isn't standing in front of my drums to hear for themselves what my understanding is.

People that are into writing lyrics or even prose alot of times keep all kinds of notebooks and ideas they want to try out. I think doing this on the drums works well for me personally. My notebook is more or less my laptop since I use Finale alot to write things out, but it's still the same idea.

Things I transcribe are different that my own snippet ideas that I've saved because I have the recording to trigger the memory, but still writing it down for me helps even though I usually set the paper aside and go off of sound and feel and memory as soon as possible.

There are alot of sources for these transcriptions out there (like that Best of Led Zeppelin drums) and I too just use that as a guide. There simply are alot of mistakes in these books and tabs, but they're probably 90-95% accurate and definitely catch things that I've missed. So, with the tabs and books and my own ear to correct mistakes I hear, it's not too difficult to come up with a transcription pretty close to a recording. Then working out the mechanics on and away from the kit it the real task. I wonder if I'll ever get the first verse of "Good Times Bad Times" up to speed... (transcribing it is alot easier than playing well).

[intooder]

lol. great posts everybody.

as a chump who reads music at the speed of a glacier i learned led zep parts differently. for rock 'n roll and also the intro fill to bonzo's montreaux i use a method i call ten pennies.
i put on the head phones (to get perfect stereo and sound) and put a pile of ten pennies on the table in front of me. then i play (on the cd - so i'm sitting still and not drumming) the target section of the song (ie the R'nR intro) with my eyes closed. each time i play it i take apenny off the pile.
next i repeat the above exercise but this time i air drum it to get a feel for the limb movement (no feet yet).
then i turn up the bass and treble and drop the mids so i can hear the bass drum as clearly as possible and do that ten times.
then only do i start trying it out on the drums. (after hearing the piece 30 times).
so its in my head by heart and my hands and feet usually follow.

j

Some serious dedication there, Nutha!! I'd feel like a nap after 3 pennies.

[NUTHA JASON]

well yes...it does depend on the piece. listen to the intro to 'bonzo's montreaux'.

there is a lot more going on there than initially meets your ear. listen to it thirty times and you start seeing the layers.

j

[pdp 9091]

well yes...it does depend on the piece. listen to the intro to 'bonzo's montreaux'.

there is a lot more going on there than initially meets your ear. listen to it thirty times and you start seeing the layers.

j


ya i can definatly hear layers even throughout the whole track

[stagecustom]

can anybody play candy store rock?

[CooManChu]

Hey, you know, I think I was wrong yesterday with that Rock and Roll intro. Playing through it today with the album just would not line up at the end. I think Frankinj had it correct when he said he thinks it should begin on the and of 3. The other really embarrassing mistake was that I was hearing the crash on the and of 4. It's really on the downbeat of the first bar. Sorry about that too.

Not that it matters to people who are playing the intro completely by ear, but in case anyone is using the music too, I don't want to mislead anyone. Here's what I think is a more accurate representation:

http://www.schuman-cook.com/tmp/RockandRollIntro2.JPG

Also, I experimented with playing the entire intro with locked hands and it works just fine (like Franklinj mentioned the MD transcription suggested). I still like the non-locked hands as I have it above and I still hear it that way on the recording, but you know, I could be wrong about that too...

[intooder]

well yes...it does depend on the piece. listen to the intro to 'bonzo's montreaux'.

there is a lot more going on there than initially meets your ear. listen to it thirty times and you start seeing the layers.

j

I wasn't implying that the music is in any way straightforward, just that it seems like a lot of work, hence the nap :)

[CooManChu]

Hey, has anyone worked on "Custard Pie". I really like that tune and it's technically pretty straight ahead (just a little quick footwork here and there), but definitely attainable. Musically, it's excellent as everything just fits together so well and each members' ideas compliment the others.

I was wondering if people would mind going through my transcription below and let me know what they think. I didn't transcribe the whole tune note for note; I just picked key phrases and pulled those off.

One place where I did alter what's being played is in the first kick phrases of the verses (bar 5 of each verse if you're counting). I don't think Bonham plays his bass like I have it indicated, but for me, this fits very well. Also, it's not uncommon at all for him to move things down to the bass drum that other people might play on a higher drum, so I don't think it's an uncharacteristic change for me to make.

For those few phrases, I basically just moved some attacks down to the bass drum to free up my hands for the crashes. I play traditional grip and trying to get quick crashes in on the end of a 16th note string with my left is a real weak and awkward proposition for me right now. Using my bass drum here and there gives me an extra hand to work with so that I can keep my balance and still feel like the idea is flowing and still keep my rights and lefts alternating nicely.

The other thing I don't have that I think I hear are slight ride pattern variations. I think I hear an occasional double here and there (16th notes) on the HH. He does this type of thing on alot of tunes (you can even see it on the live footage in Good Times and such) and I think he's doing it here too. It's something that you hear Clyde Stubblefield and Jabb'o Starks start doing in their later stuff that they still do today, so I think it's natural for Bonham to be doing it. I'll add those little varions later as I experiment with them myself and look at them a little closer.

If you want a full-sized version, I have a PDF file available:

Custard Pie - Physical Grafitti (http://www.schuman-cook.com/tmp/CustardPie.pdf)

Thanks for any comments/suggestions you can give.
http://www.schuman-cook.com/tmp/CustardPieP1.JPG

http://www.schuman-cook.com/tmp/CustardPieP2.JPG

[NUTHA JASON]

brilliant. when i get home i'm going to listen and read.

i wish more posts in the drummers sections were about transcripts and methods and tuning and not so much about how much a drummer is the best or fastest. well done coomanchu.
j

[CooManChu]

brilliant. when i get home i'm going to listen and read.

i wish more posts in the drummers sections were about transcripts and methods and tuning and not so much about how much a drummer is the best or fastest. well done coomanchu.
j
Hey thanks - anything you can suggest will be cool. Yeah, I agree about that fastest thing. It really gets out of control sometimes. I really don't even think the players we idolize worry too much about it themselves.

Me too on the other topic: I'm hoping to see alot more methods and transcripts because it's really cool to see what other people play and what other people think other people play. Plus I know I have mistakes all over in my few transcriptions, so if people can tear them apart, we'll all learn something.

[stagecustom]

here is a site i found it has 23 drum outtakes of Bonham

http://www.saladrecords.com/bonhamfiles.htm




....you guys are very welcome haha

[pdp 9091]

here is a site i found it has 23 drum outtakes of Bonham

http://www.saladrecords.com/bonhamfiles.htm




....you guys are very welcome haha


me and bonham91 posted this site a month ago...its a great site tho

[Ashbash]

in black dog, where is the first beat in the singing?

[NUTHA JASON]

bonham battles to find his entry during recording of black dog...if you listen very carefully he clicks a stick just before each entry during plant's singing to give JPJ and JP a count in...(typical zep it is a count in of only one but it still is a clue).

j

Ps i learned it by sheer will and hearing it hundreds of times.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

That song is a nightmare but I heard a little story that they did all that on purpose to prevent people from covering it. Each and every time I always get that break wrong, and I never quite finish on the right beat. In the end I usually end up hitting the 'next track' button and playing along to Rock And Roll baby!

[finnhiggins]

That song is a nightmare but I heard a little story that they did all that on purpose to prevent people from covering it. Each and every time I always get that break wrong, and I never quite finish on the right beat. In the end I usually end up hitting the 'next track' button and playing along to Rock And Roll baby!

If you go to Drumtech they'll make you play it in Live Performance week 10.. :)

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

IF I go to DrumTech. Actually Finn... that's not a bad idea. Pity I'm not a good enough player. Heh. Week ten? What's week thirty?

[A thunder of Coxy]

Can you send us some info on DrumTech plz Finn? Prices, entry requirements, what you get taught etc? Would be greatly appreciated.Cheers

[pdp 9091]

bonham battles to find his entry during recording of black dog...if you listen very carefully he clicks a stick just before each entry during plant's singing to give JPJ and JP a count in...(typical zep it is a count in of only one but it still is a clue).

j

Ps i learned it by sheer will and hearing it hundreds of times.



o man....i hate playing to this song....when im not sitting behind the drumset and at my desk at the computer and im listening to it im jamming on the table with my hands to it and seem to get it fine but behind the drum set i just cant....kinda weird

[pdp 9091]

and garunteed....everyone who reads this part of the thread will turn on black dog and listen to it just like im doing now

[bonham990]

Drumming seems alot easier until you get behind the kit. I can play anything when im not around a kit. When i actually get behind a kit well thats a different story.

[pdp 9091]

Drumming seems alot easier until you get behind the kit. I can play anything when im not around a kit. When i actually get behind a kit well thats a different story.

ya but i mostly mean the timing of the drums in black dog...its really tricky

[Chip]

When I'm playing listening to Black Dog, I can play it, I need those cues. Sit me behind a kit and say "play Black Dog" and I can't do it, haha. Maybe if the guitarist in my band could manage it, or if they wanted to play it, which they won't.

The start of Rock and Roll is damn hard though. Fool in the Rain I can do. That's a fun song.

For learning certain parts of songs, I use a cheap MP3 player. It has a rate (speed) option, AND it you can go to a certain song, set A-B, press a button at the start of the bit you want to learn, then press again at the end. Just repeats the section over and over. For playing to songs I use a CD player (with headphones & power adapter) though, the MP3 player will eat up the batteries otherwise.

[pcmckay]

Very cool drum outtakes stagecustom. I really enjoyed listening to them. If only I could get a drum sound like that in the studio! Bonzo's drum sound is so incredible, it's amazing that with all of this digital technology out there today people are still trying to get that drum sound from almost thirty years ago.

[CooManChu]

For learning certain parts of songs, I use a cheap MP3 player. It has a rate (speed) option, AND it you can go to a certain song, set A-B, press a button at the start of the bit you want to learn, then press again at the end. Just repeats the section over and over. For playing to songs I use a CD player (with headphones & power adapter) though, the MP3 player will eat up the batteries otherwise.
Does anyone like to use Transcribe? I use it and I think it's great. You can slow things down, speed them up, select sections of a tune to auto repeat. You can export any speed mods or selections to a separate file then burn that to a CD or keep as an MP3 (helpul if you want to play a tune at 90% tempo). It's a very solid application written by a British guitar player, Andy Robinson. It's shareware, but well worth the measly registration price. It runs on Linux, Mac, and Windows. I think it's the best tool out there for transcritions by ear: http://www.seventhstring.com/

Black Dog - I actually have not looked too closely at that one, but I will. I read in Thunder of Drums that Jones said Bohnam had trouble with that tune. What was trouble for Bonham? The band had to play it twice before he got it?

I've never caught those stick clicks - I gotta hear than now! :)

[NUTHA JASON]

Black Dog - I actually have not looked too closely at that one, but I will. I read in Thunder of Drums that Jones said Bohnam had trouble with that tune. What was trouble for Bonham? The band had to play it twice before he got it?

the trouble is that plant sings each stanza in free time blues style and then the band has to come in, all together and all at the same speed. if you listen very carefully you will notice the rest between plan'ts last word and the entry grows gradually shorter...

Hey, hey, mama, said the way you move
Gonna make you sweat, gonna make you groove.... (longest gap and then in come the drums and guitars)

Ah, ah, child, way you shake that thing
Gonna make you burn, gonna make you sting... (medium gap)

Hey, hey, baby, when you walk that way
Watch your honey drip, can't keep away.... (almost no gap)

and buried in the last words each time you will hear a stick click.
j

[Chip]

The hardest part is where the guitar kinda goes off on a tangent, leaving the drums to play at the same tempo. It's a fun, challenging song.

[CooManChu]

the trouble is that plant sings each stanza in free time blues style and then the band has to come in, all together and all at the same speed. if you listen very carefully you will notice the rest between plan'ts last word and the entry grows gradually shorter...

Hey, hey, mama, said the way you move
Gonna make you sweat, gonna make you groove.... (longest gap and then in come the drums and guitars)

Ah, ah, child, way you shake that thing
Gonna make you burn, gonna make you sting... (medium gap)

Hey, hey, baby, when you walk that way
Watch your honey drip, can't keep away.... (almost no gap)

and buried in the last words each time you will hear a stick click.
j

Gotcha - yep, I do hear the click. Wild.

Do you think that anyone would have had come into the session with a chart of at least the form for this tune or do you think it just evolved? It seems like it would be a real bear to talk someone down on this tune without a piece of paper to at least serve as a road map.

[pdp 9091]

i just recorded a video of me playing this song...ill get it up on youtube tomorrow. A couple parts i messed up with...mostly those hard timing parts.

[ClockworkOrange]

Does anyone know what size this mounted tom is pictured here?

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f33/pistolsatnoon/JB_Royal_Albert_Hall_9_jan_1970.jpg

Please answer quick, I need to know! Thanks. (Please make sure you're 100% positive)

You will note the Roger's Swivo holder? This is the 12x15. There was also a 12x14, you can see this drum as mounted on a snare stand, in various pics.
Appice's bass drums were 15x26s, not 14x26s, which were a requested size, so, if Bonham received an identical kit to appice, his bass drums would have been 15x26 on one of the maple configurations.
The green sparkle was 10x14
The amber was 10x14
The stainless was 12x15, until the latter dates when he went back to a 10x14 stainless tom.


At the time of his death, Bonham had a 14x24 bass drum on order from ludwig.

[ClockworkOrange]

. Likewise, given very hard study for an endured period of time, you can learn to play exactly like John Bohnam.


No. Sorry. He is as UNIQUE as Buddy or Elvin. Oh yes, and if you know of such a person, there are three geezers in England that would pay the chap a million pounds to go out on tour with them........

[theduke86]

No. Sorry. He is as UNIQUE as Buddy or Elvin. Oh yes, and if you know of such a person, there are three geezers in England that would pay the chap a million pounds to go out on tour with them........
Hey man, I gotta say I like your posts a lot, but you should reread the thread closer. John Bohnam is every bit as unique as either Elvin or Buddy. I never claimed otherwise.

[NUTHA JASON]

CoomanchuDo you think that anyone would have had come into the session with a chart of at least the form for this tune or do you think it just evolved? It seems like it would be a real bear to talk someone down on this tune without a piece of paper to at least serve as a road map.

you know, in all my reading on the great man i have never found any mention of whether he read or wrote charts or manuscript (that i can recall).

i think each member in the band were creative giants. john paul jones is a genius of course, jimi was already a legend from his yardbird days and plant had oodles of blues influence. i think each song was created differently.

i can imagine that for black dog jimi played the riff, bonzo put some drums to it and plant suggested doing the free singing between. jonesy probably arranged the rest of the structure with a lot of arguments with plant.

i can guess that good times bad times was inspired by bonham doing that weird beat and the rest fell into place.

songs like thank-you and the rain song might have been jones started

songs like since i've been loving you and dazed and confused are actually highly original covers of blues standards.

j

[A thunder of Coxy]

Infact Jonesy came up with the riff for "Black Dog" I learnt this from "led-zeppelin.com" with the studio outakes. Very kool stuff on that page.

[ClockworkOrange]

The best version to use to actually hear what Bonham is doing on 'Black Dog' is the one from the BBC sessions. You can clearly hear the bass drum doubles, and as mentioned by Jay, the last hihat click to make the other guys aware of the 'entry'...Bonham softpedalled the other beats on hat. The bass drum doubles puts into perspective where Bonham is 'reading' the beat on the song.

[pdp 9091]

You will note the Roger's Swivo holder? This is the 12x15. There was also a 12x14, you can see this drum as mounted on a snare stand, in various pics.
Appice's bass drums were 15x26s, not 14x26s, which were a requested size, so, if Bonham received an identical kit to appice, his bass drums would have been 15x26 on one of the maple configurations.
The green sparkle was 10x14
The amber was 10x14
The stainless was 12x15, until the latter dates when he went back to a 10x14 stainless tom.


At the time of his death, Bonham had a 14x24 bass drum on order from ludwig.


we already settled this...its not a 15 inch tom....i posted proof from a ludwig manager himself:

Ludwig, Finish-Thermo-Gloss Natural Maple
14"x26" x2 Bass Drums-model #-926L
Cymbal Mounts-model #-1372C
Bass drum spurs were 2 sets of Ludwig Disappearing spurs-model #-1303C on each drum.
12"x14" Tom-Custom Order**
16"x16" Floor Tom-model # 950L
16"x18" Floor Tom-model # 952L (this was added later on)
6.5"x14" Chrome Supra-Phonic Snare Drum-model # 402

He also used a pair of conga drums.

**For years I thought his tom was a 12"x15" but Todd Trent from Ludwig told me it was 12"x14" not a 12"x15" (Thanks Todd!)



http://www.griptoad.com/JBKITS.html

[ClockworkOrange]

we already settled this...its not a 15 inch tom....i posted proof from a ludwig manager himself:

Ludwig, Finish-Thermo-Gloss Natural Maple
14"x26" x2 Bass Drums-model #-926L
Cymbal Mounts-model #-1372C
Bass drum spurs were 2 sets of Ludwig Disappearing spurs-model #-1303C on each drum.
12"x14" Tom-Custom Order**
16"x16" Floor Tom-model # 950L
16"x18" Floor Tom-model # 952L (this was added later on)
6.5"x14" Chrome Supra-Phonic Snare Drum-model # 402

He also used a pair of conga drums.

**For years I thought his tom was a 12"x15" but Todd Trent from Ludwig told me it was 12"x14" not a 12"x15" (Thanks Todd!)



http://www.griptoad.com/JBKITS.html

I'm sorry, but, you're wrong. If the tom being referred to is the one with the swivo holder in the pic, it is from the kit that is at the bottom of page 36, in A Thunder of Drums. It's 'mate'
the 10x14 is pictured there with the two bass drums, NOTE the Swivo holders on the bass drums?
The above pic from ANOTHER maple kit has the 12x14 tom. It is placed on a snare drum stand. Also, with this pic, please note the double ludwig spurs on the bass drum. These were put on as the drum's depth is 15", the same as Appice's.

[mikec]

Does anyone know how Bonham did 'Heartbreaker' on the studio cut it sound like the hats are doubling kind shuffle like. Just curious.


Mike

[NUTHA JASON]

this is the most common tab i found for heartbreaker.

BPM = 95
.................................................. ....|----repeat 6x---|
C..|----------------|----------------|x---------------|----------------|
HH |----------------|----------------|--x-x-x-x-x-x-x-|x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-|
S..|----------------|-----------ooo--|----o-------o---|----o-------o---|
Bd |----------------|----------------|o--o----o--o-o--|o--o----o--o-o--|
Hf |----------------|--------------x-|----------------|----------------|
...|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |

i think this is what john played but then they did one of two things ...
either they laid another track of hihat or they added an echo. the reason i believe this is the case is because i have just listened very carefully to the track and i don't think the 'shuffled' hihat part have the same timbre...ie they are either another hi hat or they are the same hihat put through different effects... it could be a shaker even. funnily enough i've always played this song with two hands on the hihat and played the snare with my right...
something like this:


HH(L)|-x---x---x---x--|
HH(R)|x-x---x-x-x---x-|
S(R).|----o-------o---|
Bd...|o--o----o--o-o--|
.....|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |

j

[CooManChu]

I don't hear the shuffle at all on the two live recordings I have (one from How the West Was Won, one from BBC Sessions), but both of those are a little quicker than Zeppelin II and you can definitely hear it there. So, I agree: it could be just an effect they added or it could be the shaker that he had mounted on the top of his hi-hat too. You hear nothing like the shuffle or ghost notes when he moves over to his ride cymbal on the Zeppelin II recording even though the rest of the groove is pretty much the same.

The timbre does sound different to me too - especially immediately after the back beat - maybe that's the shaker and it's a little more prominent there because he's hitting the hi-hat a little harder on the back beat for effect.

Probably not my final answer, but I'm going to say shaker mounted on the hi-hat. Whatever it is, it's a very nice, subtle effect that actually adds quite a nice texture to the groove.

Could it possibly not be a shaker or a studio effect?

[pcmckay]

In reference to Heartbreaker I myself always played two hands on the hi-hat also. I think there is overdubbed percussion on that track. There is that famous photo in the studio of of Jones, Plant, and Bonham playing various percussion instruments, I don't think it's a far reach that maybe they overdubbed something there. But I agree about the live recordings of this tune he is not playing two hands on the hi-hat, it's pretty straight forward. I like the live versions better, it is a faster tempo then the studio track. When I play this song out I usually play the BBC recordings version.
I have a question in reference to "Ramble On" since we are talking about Led Zeppelin II. Does anyone know what that subtle tapping noise is throughout the song? What is Bonham playing on or is it electronically produced? To me it almost sounds like a towell on top of maybe a floor tom, or sometimes it sounds like he is tapping on a phonebook (ha ha.)

[ns3476]

I wish Bonham was still alive because if he was i think he would be the best drummer there is

[NUTHA JASON]

I have a question in reference to "Ramble On" since we are talking about Led Zeppelin II. Does anyone know what that subtle tapping noise is throughout the song? What is Bonham playing on or is it electronically produced? To me it almost sounds like a towell on top of maybe a floor tom, or sometimes it sounds like he is tapping on a phonebook (ha ha.)

lol. i wouldn't be surprised if it was actually jimi doing that on the wood of his accoustic guitar. or john might be hand hitting a drum case. it is the ironic opposite to his drumsound philosophy of wide open ringing drums.

j

[MSTRKRFT]

About all this black dog talk...doesnt he just come in on an up-beat? Try it out.

[harryconway]

My 15x12 rack tom with a 26x14 kick.

[harryconway]

Does anyone know what size this mounted tom is pictured here?

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f33/pistolsatnoon/JB_Royal_Albert_Hall_9_jan_1970.jpg

Please answer quick, I need to know! Thanks. (Please make sure you're 100% positive)
I think it's a 15x12.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

My 15x12 rack tom with a 26x14 kick.

That's some good kick drum! Nice Harry, where do you get all this great gear?

[harryconway]

Thanx MFB. Mostly I eBay.

[ClockworkOrange]

I have a question in reference to "Ramble On" since we are talking about Led Zeppelin II. Does anyone know what that subtle tapping noise is throughout the song? What is Bonham playing on or is it electronically produced? To me it almost sounds like a towell on top of maybe a floor tom, or sometimes it sounds like he is tapping on a phonebook (ha ha.)

That's the sound of a drumstick on vinyl...or to be precise the sound of drumsticks on the top of his drumthrone seat.

[ClockworkOrange]

I wish Bonham was still alive because if he was i think he would be the best drummer there is

He is NEEDED more now, than ever.:(

Indeed a recording and gigging Zeppelin would be the antedote for a number of the industry's current problems.

[NUTHA JASON]

That's the sound of a drumstick on vinyl...or to be precise the sound of drumsticks on the top of his drumthrone seat.

a possible answer but you sound very sure. how do you know. is there a write-up on this song?

ps: in many ways i agree with your last post
j

[ClockworkOrange]

a possible answer but you sound very sure. how do you know. is there a write-up on this song?

ps: in many ways i agree with your last post
j

Jay, yes, I came across it in my research. It is in print, I just have so many bloody books here, it would take me a while to get the page and quote.

[Bernhard]

Live from the Bonham Soap at drummerworld:

guy a: ....That's the sound of a drumstick on vinyl...or to be precise the sound of drumsticks on the top of his drumthrone seat.
guy b: ......a possible answer but you sound very sure. how do you know. is there a write-up on this song?
guy a: ...a gigging Zeppelin would be the antedote for a number of the industry's current problem


Too much is too much!!

Hey guys...I start to make me some sorrows about your health!!!

and never bash Ringo

Bernhard

[ClockworkOrange]

You think that's bad Bernhard? You should see us after a few pints.......:)

[MSTRKRFT]

My 15x12 rack tom with a 26x14 kick.


Man...that kick drum....wow. Bonham would be proud.

[harryconway]

If I got this picture thang right, these are the usual suspects.

[pdp 9091]

That's the sound of a drumstick on vinyl...or to be precise the sound of drumsticks on the top of his drumthrone seat.


i actually think its a plastic garbage can top....i read it here

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=313

but it could be eaither...im not sure

[Dunnett]

I'm sorry, but, you're wrong. If the tom being referred to is the one with the swivo holder in the pic, it is from the kit that is at the bottom of page 36, in A Thunder of Drums. It's 'mate'
the 10x14 is pictured there with the two bass drums, NOTE the Swivo holders on the bass drums?
The above pic from ANOTHER maple kit has the 12x14 tom. It is placed on a snare drum stand. Also, with this pic, please note the double ludwig spurs on the bass drum. These were put on as the drum's depth is 15", the same as Appice's.

Here is a picture of the new Ludwig Stainless Steel Bonham re-issue kit. This was taken at the MusikMesse show in Frankfurt in March. The shells for this kit are produced by Dunnett Classic.

;)

http://www.dunnett.com/messe2006/images/lud6.jpg

[Bonham to the moon]

I don't allow you here to in any way go against my friend Ronn.

Ronn is a great guy, i frequent the drumsmith forum and hes given me numerous tips on making drums.

[LiveGoat]

Here is a picture of the new Ludwig Stainless Steel Bonham re-issue kit. This was taken at the MusikMesse show in Frankfurt in March. The shells for this kit are produced by Dunnett Classic.

;)

http://www.dunnett.com/messe2006/images/lud6.jpg

Hmmmm...They've reissued the Amber Vistalite, now the Stainless Steel kit, could an official Green Sparkle be coming in the not too distant future? One can only hope.

---LG

[Dunnett]

To be certain - there are only 100 of these kits being offered. Very limited edition.

[NUTHA JASON]

she's a beauty ronn. must be a hell to clean tho. i would have fingerprints on her within an hour. must be the loudest drumset on earth.

j

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Hmmmm...They've reissued the Amber Vistalite, now the Stainless Steel kit, could an official Green Sparkle be coming in the not too distant future? One can only hope.

---LG

I do believe they have done a re-issue of the Green sparkle kit. But I think the released version is 6 ply maple. Roll on 3 ply maple (christ, can you just imagine how thin that is?!)

[ewanlaing]

yeah, they had that green sparkle kit and some meinl mb20 (i think...) cymbals up for grabs in a RHYTHM competition. it was worth a whopping £5000!! i bet they got more entrants for that than any other kit, and it's actually the pic of that RHYTHM compo that ludwig use to advertise the bonham kit.
would have been a great prize. imagine that sound!

[foursticks]

What's that choked crash cymbal kind of like sound Bonzo uses on 'The Crunge'?

[pdp 9091]

What's that choked crash cymbal kind of like sound Bonzo uses on 'The Crunge'?



its his hi hat being swished

[pdp 9091]

but going back to the subject about Black Dog.....i noticed on the HTWWS cd, when they played it, there was an equal break after plants singing in each section unlike the record song. Like nutha said on the record recording there were short breaks, medium breaks and long breaks. but in the live version they were all the same to make it easier playing for bonham mostly i guess.

[IronSabbath]

John Bonham is an amazing drummer. There is nothing I can say that hasnt been said in this thread. I am just recently getting into Zep, but I am slowly molding my style after Bonham.

[pcmckay]

I am so glad Ludwig brought back the inlay finish on the bass drum hoops, it's such a nice touch very classy. The silver sparkle looks great with the Stainless Steel. My green sparkle kit in the Bonham sizes looks great with the green sparkle inlay on the hoops!

[RamboKnife]

^ Would the champagne sparkle kit just have regular champagne as the inlay finish? or sparkle as well.

[pcmckay]

I would think that it would have champagne sparkle inlay if it is a sparkle finish. They match it up as best they can for instance the amber vistalite kit has gold sparkle inlay on it's hoops. It looks great with the finish. As far as the champagne is concerned I don't see why they couldn't put the champagne finish as the inlay.

[infernal drummer]

a year ago i saw a concert with led zeppelin from copenhagen just before their big breakthrough.. the things he does on those drums is truly amazing..

[pdp 9091]

a year ago i saw a concert with led zeppelin from copenhagen just before their big breakthrough.. the things he does on those drums is truly amazing..



if u have the zep dvd...check out the clips on the first disc of the denmarks radio....alot of the drumming in communication breakdown, babe im gonna leave you, dazed and confused, and how many more times is so sick

[KLittle123]

Bonham is god, so it's understandable to have a religion.

[NUTHA JASON]

Bonham is god, so it's understandable to have a religion.

no no no

wrong way around...

God made Bonham possible, so it's understandable to have a religion.

j

[drumz4eva]

yes bonham is god...i am a huge fan of him....but i was just thinking that like....

u no everyone talks about how amazing his right foot was.....but if u think about it....it was mostly jaw dropping a long time ago before all these other techniques where devolped....like i was watching jojo mayers video, and my personal thoughts is his foot is truly amazing ....and is = to bonhams.......

but any how....

i am a huge led zepplin fan and i worship bonham.....so dont get me rong....bonham is still a insain and wonderful drummer

[ewanlaing]

it's nice that we can manage to have an 18 page topic actually discussing bonham rather than arguing over wether he was good or not. and he really deserves it too.
i think bonham helped encourage a lot of visual aspects to rock drumming too. he really swung his hair about during "moby dick" and "we're gonna groove".

[foursticks]

he really swung his hair about during "moby dick" and "we're gonna groove".

Everyone swings their hair to we're gonna groove, purely beacause its so damn.......... groovy

[CooManChu]

Does anyone have any ideas on the percussion and who played what on "Boogie With Stu" from Physical Graffiti? To me it sounds like hand claps, bass drum, tambourine, sticks on sticks (the break at the end of the tune gives a good, clear glimpse).

Thanks.

[Bonham_295]

Hi. Does anyone know the size of john bonham (of led zeppelin) 's drumsticks? i heard that they were 2A 's but those are small. afterall, they were once called trees weren't they?

thank you

[NUTHA JASON]

i think you got it right. i'm definitely hearing hand claps and sticks. but there is still something else there...

these guys were quite creative and also looking for unique sounds...and there was not ver good synthesized stuff at that time...could be something like a large plate of steel or a biscuit tin or even a large sheet of card hit with a stick and put through some effects...who knows.

j

[NUTHA JASON]

his sticks were large in his day but by the looks of these pictures they are average by today's standards. probably size 5

http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum43/john-bonham-df.jpg
http://www.ledzeppelin.ru/pa/im/JB_1970-02.jpg

although here we see him using much smaller sticks...


http://www.ledzeppelin.ru/pa/im/JB_eating_japanese_stuff.jpg

[NUTHA JASON]

found this quote but i'm unsure of the validity of the source...still checking:

'John used large sticks(2Bs and 3Ss) when he was younger'

[00Schneider]

Perhaps ask Marcel Vogelmann from www.trommelladen.de. It's THE source for Ludwig drums in Germany, and has many Kits in Bonham-sizes. He sells a copy of the Bonham Stick. It's an new website, on the old you could see the forepart.

I think it's close to a 3S.

[NUTHA JASON]

Ludwig 2A size drumsticks in the late 70's seems to be the concensus across a broad number of websites.

j

[00Schneider]

Ludwig 2A size drumsticks in the late 70's seems to be the concensus across a broad number of websites.
Now when you're saying it... I found it in the google-cache (the old page of the shop), actually it was a Ludwig 2A.

[pcmckay]

Does anyone have any ideas on the percussion and who played what on "Boogie With Stu" from Physical Graffiti? To me it sounds like hand claps, bass drum, tambourine, sticks on sticks (the break at the end of the tune gives a good, clear glimpse).

Thanks.
I was always under the impression that he was slapping the timpani with his fingers and it was run through some kind of sound effect.

[RamboKnife]

Not sure if this has been posted before, but it's worth a try.

Here's a funny interview with Bonham;

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PAuvNemHLsc&search=john%20bonham

And another old one;

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ery04XxqJO4&search=john%20bonham

[pdp 9091]

Not sure if this has been posted before, but it's worth a try.

Here's a funny interview with Bonham;

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PAuvNemHLsc&search=john%20bonham

And another old one;

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ery04XxqJO4&search=john%20bonham


ive seen the first one but not the second one...its pretty interesting

[NUTHA JASON]

smoking on tv. hahaha.

i've always felt a bit embarassed for john in that first one but the second one is cool.

j

[RamboKnife]

i've always felt a bit embarassed for john in that first one but the second one is cool.

j

Apparently it was supposed to go that way, it was a comedy show I believe...if I'm wrong tell me, but my dad said he was playing along.

[DrummerEven]

I totally agree with all that you have replied here.
Think if he had lived today, maybe he had been much better, simply said, in his own class.

As bonzo said before Led Zeppelin's live concert in Royal Albert Hall, 1970:
"If my fills won't work today, I will quit drumming"
This shows that he was bloody serious with his dooings!



(Sorry for bad english, but my teacher sucks-bigtime)

[dothecrunge]

I haven't seen that first interview in years. Those two had been friends for years and years. He was John's guest at the Melody Maker awards in 1976. John was nervous about the interview, and was drinking heavily before it as well. Billy sugested that they completely spoof it by him asking long confusing questions, and John just shrugging them off. Which is what exactly happened.

There's an article about it in the October 2005 issue of Mojo Magazine, the one dedicated to the 25th anniversary of John's death.

[pcmckay]

Apparently it was supposed to go that way, it was a comedy show I believe...if I'm wrong tell me, but my dad said he was playing along.

I think you are right because if I am not mistaken Billy Connolly is not only a actor but a Irish comedian. By the way he was great in BOONDOCK SAINTS! The greatest movie of all time!

[NUTHA JASON]

och nee...ee wus scotush. buh ee wud be greetful of yer comunts.

billy is known for his chance taking and off the cuff humour. you can't get it right all of the time...and in the bonham interview the gag fell flat.

j

[drumonit]

On the intro to Rock & Roll:

Bonham starts it with a pick up like the familiar Elvis guitar lick on Jailhouse Rock which starts on the "an" of beat three in the pick up measure. Knowing Bonham's sense of humor maybe he had that idea in his head and then change it in the 3rd bar.

Accent story for Rock & Roll (accents in bold)

Pick up
|(1 + 2 + 3) + 4 + | 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |


| 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + | 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |


| 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + || (1) Songs starts on "1" not a pick up

[MindEveryNotes]

Zeppelin rules.
John The greatest.

[NUTHA JASON]

why?

.

[CooManChu]

Just wanted to share a transcription of "Rock and Roll" that I put together for myself as a practice aid/study tool. It's very straight ahead and helped me get the tune down so that I feel pretty comfortable playing it with the record or with a group (if someone were to ever call for it)

It would be great if someone else were to get some use of of this or if anyone had any comments or suggestions. Putting it together was very helpful, so maybe some of the benefit is lost by just using the PDF below as is. Still, at the very least, it can be used to compare to your own ideas about the tune if nothing else.

Thanks,
Scott

Rock and Roll: Super Straight Ahead (http://www.schuman-cook.com/tmp/Rock_and_Roll-StraightAhead.pdf)

[CooManChu]

FYI: I edited to the above PDF: Fixed a couple typos and a notation error (5-11-06)

[NUTHA JASON]

that's very neat. thanks manchu.

now go and do 'bonzo's montreaux'...kidding...unless you can?
j

[CooManChu]

that's very neat. thanks manchu.

now go and do 'bonzo's montreaux'...kidding...unless you can?
j

:)

Well, that would be a good one - maybe at least the basics of it. Isn't that one pieced together from various studio stuff he played? You'd almost need a score with the various instruments - sounds fun to me!

[CooManChu]

Hey, here's another transcription I'd like to share. It's the first chorus of "I Can't Quit You, Babe" from Coda.

This has always been my favorite recording of the tune and in just the first chorus it shows most of Bonham's signature slow blues phrasing style: broken trips in the bass, subdividing the 8th note into 2s and 3s, extended phrase ending fills, great sound and great rhythm. One thing he doesn't do in the first chorus that he does on other tunes is keep the 8th note pulse going with his foot during extended fills. Other than that, it's got alot of the Bonham spice.

I don't think there's tab out for this particular recording (maybe there is), so that's another reason I thought it would be nice to share it.

I excitedly picked this album up when I was in high school when it originally came out on vinyl. That release of the album attributed this tune to a sound check before a gig. Until it was corrected recently to be attributed to an actual concert at Royal Albert Hall (and is included in the DVD boxed set), I had always thought, "Damn, for a sound check, these guys are really leaving it all on the bandstand!" Who knows? They probably did play soundchecks like that.

ICantQuitYouBabe.pdf (http://www.schuman-cook.com/tmp/ICantQuitYouBabe.pdf)

[CooManChu]

Hi. Here's another transcription I'd like to share with the forum:

GoodTimesBadTimes.pdf (http://www.schuman-cook.com/tmp/GoodTimesBadTimes.pdf)

It's just the intro and first verse going into the first chorus. I can't play it anywhere near tempo, so I'm working on getting it down better before moving further into the tune.

Anyway, the thing I added to this transcription that I don't see in any tabs or any other transcriptions are Bonham's bell pattern variations. He changes the pattern up and adds little embellishments beyond just pinging out 8ths all day on his bell. In my opinion, it adds a very nice, perceptible spice to the groove and gives it alot of life beyond the basic pattern people probably learn for this groove. For me, it aso gives insight into additonal possibilities that can be tested out on the groove as well as material for variety so things don't get stale.

Another thing I added was notating the 1 bar fill going into the verse in triplet form. This fill really feels and sounds like medium/up-tempo swing to me (if you consider the 8th note subdivision in the hi-hat as a quarter note in medium/up-tempo swing), so I notated it as 16th note trips to emphasize this impression.

I play a 4 piece Ludwig kit, so this is adapted for my intrument. The notation might not be 100% standard, so please don't hesitate to ask if something looks weird or if you see another way something could have been played or notated.

Thanks.

[DrummerMom]

When you guys talk about Bonham's triplets, are you referring to the "broken triplets" he does on like Good Times, Bad Times or something else?

I have the sheet music and he does do broken triplets on Good Times, Bad times.

[rd4drumz]

This was and is good. He paved the way for live rock drumming. Zep was the first true jamband.

[KLittle123]

anyone know where to get any zeppelin bootlegs.

[JohnLittle]

Google :)

Try this site for a nice index:

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~qr6y-ykt/index.html (http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~qr6y-ykt/index.html)

and it looks like there are tons of sites (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=zeppelin+bootlegs&spell=1) with people trading and stuff.

[wontgetfooledagain]

This was and is good. He paved the way for live rock drumming. Zep was the first true jamband.
I'm going to have to say that on that last detail you are wrong. I think Cream beat them to that title.

[Bonhamfan]

I'm going to have to say that on that last detail you are wrong. I think Cream beat them to that title.


Grateful Dead could take the title to IMO.

[KLittle123]

ya know what I realized, if like Vic Firth or Pro Mark made Bonham sized sticks and marketed them as those I think those would be highly profitable, I know I'd buy them.

[kaptainsteve]

1. Zep's over-rated.
2. Bonzo is MORE talented than page or plant put together.
3. Most of Zep's songs were plagarized... google it if you don't believe me or just listen to the
small faces "You need lovin'" for one blatent example and you will see who plant tries to
sound like, but sounds like a ridiculous parady of.
4. Plant was real creepy looking, still is. He gives me the willies.

[NUTHA JASON]

you are entitled to your opinions of course. a lot of bands in those days were expert cover bands. ever read a rolling stones anthology? so i don't think you should judge them too harshly.
bonzo had a different talent topage and plant so i don't see how you could make that sort of statement. all 4 members of the band were immensely talented...just the ego's were different. it was the done thing for the singer to wolf the share of the lime light and page was a success before zep so he was also up there. bonzo and jones stood back and let their musicianship do the talking.
i also truly admire robert plant. he is a unique guy. creepy looking? alice cooper is creepy looking. looks have nothing to do with it. do me a favour and look up robert'ssolo projects post zep. he is a superb musician. 29 palms, ship of fools, what you trying to do to my heart?

j

[CosmicKeys]

In my opion one of the greatest drummers of all time, Fool In The Rain, When The Levee Breaks, Poor Tom all great grooves. Moby Dick...out of this world and Good Times Bad Times with all the triplets and his lightning fast foot. And D'yer Maker the very first Zeppelin song i could play. One thing i loved about John Bonham is that all his drums seem to fit in the song. Any other comments on John Bonham


p.s. My first post :)

yeah! I totally agree with you man!!! My all time favorite drummer, and the Led Zeppelin songs are really fun to play! :)

[A thunder of Coxy]

Im still getting bog'd down trying to replicate his sound. The most annoying thing is that reading sources telling me he tuned both heads tight and then I apply this to my heads and they sound like hitting a glass. I love the sound from his Maple Kit from the DVD in the Royal Albert hall, so deep and powerful. Another example is the intro to "Thank you" absoloute gorgeous sound. I have a Tama Rockstar custom and although the drums are not as big as Bonzo's I want to get a similar sound instead of this glassy sound. I currently have EC2's on the batter and Pinstripes reso (thought I'd give it ago instead of the crappy tama stock reso). Im eventually gonna get Emporers or Aquarians Response 2 heads for batter and amassadors for reso. Rant finished.........so yea any feedback :p

[cdrums21]

To try and cop Bonham's sound, which many people try to do, you have to know a few things. One, his style of playing and the way he struck the drum was an important part of his sound. The sizes of his drums and what they were made of (maple on his most famous recordings) are also of extreme importance. A 26" bass drum with both heads intact with felt strips for muffling like he had sounds NOTHING like a 22" kick with a hole in the front head and blankets for muffling. His toms were tuned similar to his snare drum in that the bottom skin was tuned pretty high while the top skin was tuned to a medium tension. He used 14" 16" and 18" toms for the majority of his career, so he had some leeway on being able to tune them a bit higher without losing some balls. Finally, head selection is also key. On his kit, he played coated emperors on all batter heads with coated ambassadors on the bottom of his toms and the front of his bass drum. Ambassador snare side. The resonant head should be a single ply for maximum resonance. The rest of his sound was just the skill he had both in tuning his drums and playing. It was truly an awesome sound and one that many drummers try to copy but seldom do.

[Auger]

Just heard on the radio that today's Bonzo's Birthday.

Happy birthday John Bohnam wherever you are!

[DrummerMom]

John Bonham would be 58 today.

[Sar]

We all know of Bonham's amazing power and feel. Ah, gives me chills thinking what a drummer he was. But at first bonham was known as the Loud Studio Drummer...

. In 1964, Bonham joined his first band, Terry Webb and the Spiders, meeting his future wife Pat Phillips at a dance in Kidderminster. He also played in other Birmingham bands such as The Blue Star Trio and The Senators, who released a moderately successful single "She's a Mod". Bonham enjoyed the experience and decided to take up drumming full-time. Two years later, he joined "A Way of Life" however the band soon became inactive. In desperation for a regular income, he joined a blues group called Crawling King Snakes whose lead singer was a young Robert Plant (Led Zeppelin's lead singer). During this period, Bonham developed a reputation of being the loudest drummer in England, often breaking drumheads and being asked by clubs to stop playing. Asked to leave one Birmingham studio because he was too loud for the owner, he was told that there was no future for a drummer as loud as him. Ten years later, the owner received a note reading "Thanks for the career advice..."; and accompanied by a Led Zeppelin gold record. By 1967, A Way of Life asked Bonham to return to their group, during this period Plant kept in constant contact with Bonham and when he decided to form Band Of Joy, Bonham was first choice as drummer. The band recorded a number of demos but no album. In 1968 American singer Tim Rose toured Britain and invited Band of Joy to open his concerts. When Rose returned for another tour months later, Bonham was formally invited by the singer to drum for his band which gave him a regular income.

I just thought I had to share this for all of those drummer out there that get bashed for theyr stile of playing. Bonham could've payed attention to them and changed his stile, but that wasn't him. He just had to wait for the right time. Just remember to have the feel and groove, but most importantly the music in you... Ah, bonham what an amazing example and drummer for us all.

But now for the goodies! :)
(Later on I'll see if I can put up some other ones. Oh, and some of these might not have been used in the actual record.)

[Ufipman!]

Nice that you did this on what would have been his 58th Birthday. Thanks for the drum tracks too, very interesting.

[KLittle123]

I baked him a cake, I'll post a pic if I can...eventually.

[kstailey]

Bonzo..The reason I started playing drums seriously in the first place..I started playing on cardboard boxes in my parents bedroom..pie pans nailed to broom handles for cymbals..we were poor..that was in 1965..in 1969 after playing snare drum in school for 2 years I herad Led Zep I..WOW..I wasnt able to afford my own kit so I played on a few friends until 1976 when I was in the Navy and bought a Ludwig Blue Vistalite 8 piece kit..still have it today..I immediately started learning Zep songs and realized right away that I had an offbeat rhythm..Bonhams style of playing came quite easy for cause of that but man he was fast and I remember when I was trying to learn Moby Dick the live version I kept smacking my left wrist really hard with the right stick..I developed a knot the size of a golf ball from hitting so hard and so many times but I eventually got the whole solo down and loved every second of learning it including the pain.. AS for his sound if you tune the resionant heads a couple complete turns higher that the batter head which is set at medium tension then the drums really come to life..Acrylic drums are a little touchy to tune but are by far the best sounding drums I have ever played.. Years ago I took all the bottom heads off all my toms and things really opened up.. I loved John Bonham and I miss him greatly.. Like I said he has been my inspiration for 40 years of drumming..whenever I feel my head swelling a little and get a little cocky..I play Moby Dick Live and I humbly bow in retreat..Yeh I'm good..Real good..But Bonham if he was still alive would still kick my ass..then smile and say..try that!!!

[CooManChu]

Hey, a while back someone posted a question about Bonham's HH riding on Heartbreaker from Zeppelin II. At the time I think the general agreement was that the skip/ghost notes we're hearing were a studio effect.

I was wondering if maybe those could in fact be genuine ghost notes, possibly even in the snare (to give the different timbre we were hearing). I'm thinking about something along the lines of some super basic Clyde Stubblefield who at the same time this Zeppelin recording was made was pulling off some very cool ghosting.

Just wondering if anyone thinks you could play the general groove in the hands something like following and come up with a sound fairly close to the original:


HH:|x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-|
_S:|-g--xg---g--xg--|
___|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |


Leaving the stick close to the head after the backbeat so it connects as a ghost is something I think I hear Clyde do alot and I hear it in some of Bonham's stuff too (like on "When the Levee Breaks" where he also uses ghost attacks in the bass). I've been working hard on "I Got the Feeling" where Clyde employs his ghosting technique extensively, so maybe I'm just extending it to this "Heartbreaker" groove. However, I would imagine that Bonham would have listened to Clyde quite a bit too and employed some of the things the other guys of the time were doing around him.

Just as an aside: If you listen to Dread Zeppelin's "Heartbreaker (At the End of Lonely Street)" you'll hear the same ride pattern as above with the ghost notes:


HH:|xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx-|
___|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |


The other thing I was thinking was that is doesn't seem characteristic of Bonham to use a studio effect to give his drumming the sound of additional technique or a sound he can't come up with on his own. His stuff isn't layered upon layers like Page's stuff was and I think if he had the opportunity to add studio effects to his playing, he generally declined. I don't know for sure, though.

Anyway, this is probably a little geeky for some people, but I get into the little embellishments that people do. I think it's like a subtle spice people use to make their cooking special or different and also gives me more options to consider in my own playing.

Any thoughts?

[bonham990]

Any one have tips on his triplet fills in stairway to heaven?

[pdp 9091]

To try and cop Bonham's sound, which many people try to do, you have to know a few things. One, his style of playing and the way he struck the drum was an important part of his sound. The sizes of his drums and what they were made of (maple on his most famous recordings) are also of extreme importance. A 26" bass drum with both heads intact with felt strips for muffling like he had sounds NOTHING like a 22" kick with a hole in the front head and blankets for muffling. His toms were tuned similar to his snare drum in that the bottom skin was tuned pretty high while the top skin was tuned to a medium tension. He used 14" 16" and 18" toms for the majority of his career, so he had some leeway on being able to tune them a bit higher without losing some balls. Finally, head selection is also key. On his kit, he played coated emperors on all batter heads with coated ambassadors on the bottom of his toms and the front of his bass drum. Ambassador snare side. The resonant head should be a single ply for maximum resonance. The rest of his sound was just the skill he had both in tuning his drums and playing. It was truly an awesome sound and one that many drummers try to copy but seldom do.

you basically repeated every single thing in this video

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/johnbonhamtech1.html

[CooManChu]

Any one have tips on his triplet fills in stairway to heaven?
I've been working on my trips between hand and feet (where the first is in the left or right and the last two are in the bass drum), and I haven't found any great secret yet. I'm also not very consistent with pulling them out until they get going. I need to keep working on them and do as part of my daily warmup.

I did find that playing the bass with my the ball of foot (as opposed to flat footed) works best and the attack being made using the foot moving like a pendulum from the ankle as well as a little leg movement up and down. It also seems like using the rebound from the drum head helps, so keeping the foot and leg firm but relaxed (like we do our hands when playing the snare) makes a difference. Also making sure that the beater comes up while the hand is playing the first of the triplet articulations helps tremendously and is ready for it's attack. The beater's readiness can be assisted by using the rebound as much as possible when a string of bass notes are being played. When I started this effort of improving my bass, I noticed that I was leaving the beater on the head of the drum and not raising it in time to make its first attack (oddly, this was never a problem when I was just playing singles between the bass and hands - it only krept up when I went to a single in the right or left and a double in the bass drum).

This is one technique I really want. For me, it's hard to play any of Bonham's ideas true to form without the bass drum integrated and coordinated into my playing and working as well as another hand. I think that my hands (like everyone's) are more naturally coordinated together and to get them to work in sync with either of my feet is simply going to take some work. Integrating the HH as another voice and having it as smooth and readily available as any hand would be is another project I have in my mind to be working on soon.

Anyone else have some ideas on this topic?

[Class A Drummer]

This is an awsome live video of Led Zeppelin playing "Achilles Last Stand." This is IMO one of the greatest performances i have seen of them. At the end Bonham does a cool timpini Solo.

Who knew he even used a timpini :D

Edit- i left out the link, here it is http://youtube.com/watch?v=DbQz14Jr7L0&search=achilles%20last%20stand

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Most of us knew. Unfortunately there also seems to be an imaginary link.

[fanagel]

I'm giving myself a headache imagining a link...

[finnhiggins]

Let's imagine it was this instead:

http://www.somethingawful.com/index.php?a=3888

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Loving the article. Even though I disagree... Well with the Yorke bit at least.

[finnhiggins]

I just liked the picture/caption under the bit about Muse...

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Yeah I'm not too happy with their latest single either. Perhaps that's microphone w***kery?

[finnhiggins]

Yeah I'm not too happy with their latest single either. Perhaps that's microphone w***kery?

I just thought it was quite a good caption because of the whole Rube Goldberg type implication, like he'd somehow managed to finally hit upon the perfect solution to his digitary manipulation problems by means of an SM57, tens of thousands of dollars worth of rackmount FX, a guitar and a very, very large P.A.... The expression on his face helps, too.

Also:

"22% of the letters in Thom Yorke’s name are superfluous."

Hah!

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I'm starting to like that website Finn. It's like how Maddox would be if it's funny. I can just see you there reading it for hours. Rude Goldberg indeed, although the piano isn't superfluous... or the microphone. Maybe Mr. Bellamy is having a mid-life crisis and needs to quell his desires by buying lots of outboard reverb and delay units?

22% seems pretty accurate...

[Class A Drummer]

hmmm i guess i left out the link my fault :D here it is guys...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DbQz14Jr7L0&search=achilles%20last%20stand

[jazzsnob]

I knew it Finn, I just knew it!

[NUTHA JASON]

link works for me...tho i have the DVD. my favourite part is at 6:45


j

[intooder]

my favourite part is at 6:45
j
Yep! Sheer Bonzo Power.
Thanks for sharing Class A. I have the DVD as well, but it's nice to watch that song separately, anways.

[Class A Drummer]

link works for me...tho i have the DVD. my favourite part is at 6:45


j
everyone was saying the link didnt work because i actually for got to copy and paste it lol.

[dothecrunge]

link works for me...tho i have the DVD. my favourite part is at 6:45


j

I think that's everyone's favorite part. ;)

[ewanlaing]

that performance really stood out on the dvd. it seemed like they were really pushing themselves that night, with spectacular results.

[Chip]

anyone know where to get any zeppelin bootlegs.
Anywhere on the 'net, haha. My teacher was telling me a story aout how his brother had huge collections of Zeppelin's stuff, bootlegs, albums everything. I think he said there was about 4 different versions of Moby Dick. He turned religious, and burned them all because of their 'affiliation' with satan.. Shocking, ain't it?

[foursticks]

more heartbreaking if you ask me..

[chickdrummer]

Click "Play video" button and wait for audio to load.

[NUTHA JASON]

i'm sorry but i followed your link and it took me through pages of adverts for premium memberships... i suspect spam. put a link to a different video host that is genuinely free if you are for real.

j

[chickdrummer]

Try this one:



I tested it, and it worked fine for me.

[NUTHA JASON]

still not working please do not use that site. badongo is no go here thank you.

[chickdrummer]

Nutha Jason,

I have downloaded the file to another host

http://media.putfile.com/01trackjb

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

theeere you go. that one definitely works. where did you get that from?

[MOONCHILD]

great one thanks 20

[NUTHA JASON]

now that's better.

well its hard to authenticate this. the bass drum and tom sounds are not really dead on with the sound of john. even the snare timbre is a bit of a stretch at times. the figures being played are very much as i would imagine he would sound while stuffing around or warming up. hard to tell really. in all bootlegs of bonzo you hear him grunting and shouting while he drums... here there is nothing.
on the other hand if someone were trying to make a fake bootleg they would play the very obvious bonham trademarks...the foot triplets, phrases from zep songs. this one is more like something from the middle of an early moby dick.

all that said i am 80% sure this is what it says it is.

so thanks
j

[chickdrummer]

Glad everyone can hear it now...I found this at some other site, can't remember where, and was wondering if it really was Bonham noodling around....

[NUTHA JASON]

here's a few stats from the us sales figures:
Number Artist Sales 1 The Beatles 106,530,000 2 Garth Brooks 92,000,000 3 Led Zeppelin 83,620,000 4 Elvis Presley 77,280,000 5 Eagles 65,000,000 6 Billy Joel 63,250,000 7 Barbra Streisand 62,750,000 8 Elton John 61,620,000 9 Aerosmith 54,370,000 10 Pink Floyd 52,600,000

just look at which band occours over and over again in this list counting down album sales in all categories.
Millions Sold Title Artist's Name 28 Their Greatest Hits (vol. 1) The Eagles 26 Thriller Michael Jackson 23 The Wall Pink Floyd 22 Led Zeppelin IV Led Zeppelin 21 Greatest Hits VOL I & II Billy Joel 19 The Beatles The Beatles 19 Come On Over Shania Twain 19 Back In Black AC/DC 19 Rumours Fleetwood Mac 17 Boston Boston 17 The Bodyguard (soundtrack) Whitney Houston 16 The Beatles 1967 - 1970 The Beatles 16 Hotel California Eagles 16 Greatest Hits Elton John 16 Jagged Little Pill Alanis Morissette 16 No Fences Garth Brooks 16 Cracked Rear View Hootie & The Blowfish 15 Physical Graffiti Led Zeppelin 15 The Beatles 1962 - 1966 The Beatles 15 Saturday Night Fever The Bee Gees 15 Born In The U.S.A. Bruce Springsteen 15 Dark Side Of The Moon Pink Floyd 15 Appetite For Destruction Guns 'n Roses 15 Double Live Garth Brooks 14 Supernatural Santana 14 Bat Out Of Hell Meat Loaf 14 Ropin' The Wind Garth Brooks 14 Backstreet Boys Backstreet Boys 13 Frampton Comes Alive Peter Frampton 13 Greatest Hits Simon & Garfunkel 13 Purple Rain (soundtrack) Prince & The Revolution 13 Whitney Houston Whitney Houston 13 Baby One More Time Britney Spears 13 Millennium Backstreet Boys 13 Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band Live Bruce Springsteen 13 Metallica Metallica 13 Greatest Hits 1974 - 1978 Steve Miller Band 12 Abbey Road The Beatles 12 Led Zeppelin II Led Zeppelin 12 Hot Rocks The Rolling Stones 12 Slippery When Wet Bon Jovi 12 II Boyz II Men 12 Kenny Rogers Greatest Hits Kenny Rogers 12 Breathless Kenny G 12 Hysteria Def Leppard 12 The Woman In Me Shania Twain 12 No Jacket Required Phil Collins 12 Yourself Or Someone Like You Matchbox Twenty 12 Forrest Gump Soundtrack Various Artists 12 Wide Open Spaces Dixie Chicks 12 Ten Pearl Jam 11 Dirty Dancing Soundtrack Various Artists 11 James Taylor's Greatest Hits James Taylor 11 Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band The Beatles 11 Crazysexycool TLC 11 Pieces Of You Jewel 11 Houses Of The Holy Led Zeppelin 11 Titanic Soundtrack Various Artists 11 No Strings Attached 'N Sync 11 Falling Into You Celine Dion 11 Eagles Greatest Hits Volume II Eagles 11 Devil Without A Cause Kid Rock 10 The Stranger Billy Joel 10 1984 Van Halen 10 Aerosmith's Greatest Hits Aerosmith 10 Best Of The Doobies The Doobie Brothers 10 Can't Slow Down Lionel Richie 10 Daydream Mariah Carey 10 Dookie Green Day 10 Eliminator ZZ Top 10 Faith George Michael 10 Fly Dixie Chicks 10 Greatest Hits Journey 10 Human Clay Creed 10 Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin

[pdp 9091]

Doesnt sound like him at all. As nutha said no grunting from him, doesnt sound like his snare at all and none of his playing style is reflected in this. Its definatly a fake

[jangus]

Its pretty cool but I have some doubts.

[dizkneelande]

thats not bonham! BOOO

[tmc]

in all bootlegs of bonzo you hear him grunting and shouting while he drums... here there is nothing.


Jeez, and I thought I was the only one that grunted while drumming... phew. At least I haven't worked my way up to shouting.

-Michael

[chris--byrne]

I'm not sure about this one, although the drums don't sound quite right I think like Nutha said it could be some kind of warm up, maybe before recordings or a practice session. Some parts do sound like his earlier playing.