Fastest Double Bass Player?

[Speedy]

If you had to pick one drummer, who would you say the fastest double bass player is? On which song? cd?

[Anth]

Fastest ever double bass player I have ever seen is Thomas Lang. Truely awe-inspiring.

Or if I had to pick one from my metal collection, would be a toss up between Steve Ashiem of Deicide or Pete Sandoval of Morbid Angel. I'm most fond of Dave Lombardo of Slayer aswell, but he's not so much about speed, but brutal power and technique.

[meshuggah1324]

Gene Hoglan of Strapping Young Lad is damn fast. And he keeps it fast for long periods of time and records without splicing any parts. Dude weighs like 350 lbs, but he can double bass like a MOFO.

But it's not about speed. For me it's about the double bass patterns and tricks here and there like Tomas Haake of Meshuggah plays on the Meshuggah song "New Millenium Cyanide Christ" from their Chaosphere CD. Check that one out for some cool double bass...

[XevKai]

I second the Gene Holgan....

Though he's even better in Death....

In fact any drummer for Death was phenominal. Richard Christyu ruled!

[Anchein Vouivra]

Meshuggah's 21minute long EP "I" has the longest and most regular double bass rythms. MR HAAKE once again.

MAIK from the swiss grindcore band Nostromo is my all time favourite double bass beast. "Unwillingly and Slow" on the album Ecce Lex shows off the most angry blastbeat.

Not the flashiest, but I love the work of JIMMY DEGRASSO on the Suicidal Tendencies song "Lost Again" from Lights, Camera, Revolution album.

[onggie]

The fastest I have heard is Travis from Trivium. But I don't to much of the fast double bass etc stuff. Eg a lot of the heavy metal stuff.

[pascal-paiste]

i think the fastest double bass drum is dennis chambers and neil peart

[Dyaxe]

hmmm..i gotta say thomas lang sure has some speed.

others like Pete Sandoval (Morbid angel) and dave lombardo (Slayer, but the one album (The Gathering) he played with Testament has incredible double bass, not to mention incredible overal drummer) are pretty fast with double bass. theres definetly others, but those ones firstly come to mind

[Elemental Nausea]

well in the technical section, i think it would be virgil donati and maybe thomas lang

but as the constantly smashing double bass is more common in metal, I think, some drummer dudes of malevolent creation or death are very fast, or the berzerker drummer , or nick barker, or also joey jordison, or lombardo, lol there would be so many who can play really fast, but you cant exactly tell who is the fastest
@speedy: but it is for sure not lars ulrich :D

[Fendi]

Derek Roddy has fast pedal works.. Most death metal bands i listen to have a fast feet works.. Hate eternal.. And tim yeung from vital remains has incredible speeds too.. :)

[Ambiguous Arson]

first of all, Im Matt, im an 18 year old jazz/funk drummer from PA...



If you want fast double bass and incredible precision, you want Flo Mounier of Crytopsy...

http://www.vicfirth.com/artists/mounier.html

check out his videos...can't say i've seen anyone play faster singles in my life

[CartersChops]

suprising none of you have heard of hellhammer, the legendary scandanavian black metal drummer......as sinister as his band mayhem may be, his double bass is by far the fastest ive ever heard..rumor has it he is recording with DIMMU BORGIR, as their master metal skinsman nick barker stepped aside. hellhammer also drums with thorns and arcturus...look them up and you will be amazed. next to him its dimmu borgir's old drummer nick barker.

[CartersChops]

the guy from morbid angel is fast...but not as fast as hellhammer, nobody is

[Doom]

Tim Waterson has got to get a mention. In the metal ranks theres also Dave Mclean from Machine Head and Van Williams from Nevermore who never seems that fast till their Enemies Of Reality album.

[thinkintriplets]

I'd have to agree with the Flo comment AND the dude from Nile. On the new Nile, I think the speeds are something like 250-270 bpm....

Marc.

p.s. - Cool Flo Vid. :D

[Tyrnox]

That flo mounier solo on the vic firth website is horrible in comparison to his other solo's, and believe me I've seen alot. Seen cryptospy live 2 times, and the two times he did jawdropping solo's ( I was RIGHT besides the set ), I also have a solo on video of him, that doesn't seem to be on the net anymore because I can't find it anywhere.

To be honest fast double bass to me, doesn't mean anything if its not tastefull. Some of the best double bass work i've heard would probably be from Gene Hoglan with the work he did on the Death albums.

[CartersChops]

I'd have to agree with the Flo comment AND the dude from Nile. On the new Nile, I think the speeds are something like 250-270 bpm....

Marc.

p.s. - Cool Flo Vid. :D

250 bpm is really really slow, you can do that on one foot if your decent... not metranome speed but actuall bpm, the faster double bass players are over 850's

[Bonham to the moon]

Jo Jo mayer and John Bonham, ooo wait they didnt and dont need one.

That aside, i dont think that the double bass should be used to up for the drummers lack of hand speed. Not all drummers are like this, but a lot are.

But the person who uses the double bass as it should be, the best would have to be Dennis Chambers.

[toteman2]

250 bpm is really really slow, you can do that on one foot if your decent... not metranome speed but actuall bpm, the faster double bass players are over 850's


He is talking about 16th notes played at 250BPM....That is really really fast...270 is insane!

[krazykenny5150]

derek roddy has my vote! you forgot Aurora Borealis! awsome band he drummed for! also the drummer for Origin is insane!!! for pure speed these are drummers you have to stand in awe to!

http://www.thesicness.co.uk/krazykenny/Derek_Roddy_-_Drum_Lesson_01.mpeg video of derek

http://www.thesicness.co.uk/krazykenny/origin-portal.mp3 - most insane origin song

[LDGuy]

According to WFD, Tim Waterson is the supposed fastest. However that's only of the people who participate in the competitions, and there are probably woodshedders everywhere who can do 2000 bpm on the feet, but dont know about it.

His scores were Double Pedal Single Strokes - 1,030, Double Pedal Double Strokes - 1,407, Single Pedal (One Foot) 650. These are all bpm.

[Big Evil]

I would say Tim Waterson i saw his video off the axid pedals website and the speed he gets is amazing and its really smooth. I would also say Virgil Donati.

[Stevis]

Jaska Raatikainen the drummer from Children of Bodom.

OR

This kid I have no clue who he is but someone from Harmony Central posted this kid he knows playing and this kid is fast with sticks and bass plus he has control. He's a pretty good drummer.

Clickety (http://www.vornagar.com/hyperionvid.wmv)

[Lambo]

Hmmm....where do you start???? Derek Roddy, Tony Laureano, George Kollias, Hellhammer. Roddy mentioned once that he got 1,068 with singles once, and something like 633 in 30 seconds.

[K!lly]

Humm..

Because somtimes there are much more difficulties than druming fast with double bass,
I forgot to mention Herve Torcheux, a french drummer so amazing: Fla, ghost note and a wird technique stoll from brazilian percussion: baita
no secret for him....
a must seen :)

[larkin42]

When it comes to double bass, i wouldn't go for fastest, but more for style and technicalities. Cause with the triple bass pedals and what not out there, any body can get them moving pretty quick.

[devilfreshmaster]

I guess maybe George Kollias is not the absolute fastest but he's a good example of the speed the best are around. I personally think his control is amazing. Check out his video to give your opinion. George Kollias Drum Solo (http://www.metal-empire.it/public/kollias/clinic_solo.avi)

[timpanigrip23]

I don't know about speed, but the cleanest chops I've ever heard are by Carter Beauford and their pretty fast.

[Wreijman]

The #1 fast double bass player is Tim Waterson. period. He's also in the Guinness Book Of Records...

[Blue]

There's some kid on this forum who is now touring with vital remains. He posted under "extremely fast-drumming." It's pretty amazing. I can't remember his name. H'es only in his early twenties, I think. There's a video on that thread.

[Blue]

Yeah, but what does 650 BPM mean? Does that mean if you set to 650 BPM, you hit it every beap, or more than one time between beaps?

[fourstringdrums]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Raymond Hererra from Fear Factory.

I checked out the Flo Mournier video...worst snare sound I've heard since St. Anger.

[jonescrusher]

Curtis - BPM stands for Beats Per Minute, so the numbers quoted by LDGuy for Tim Waterson are the number of individual hits, i.e 650 individual bass drum hits with one foot in a minute.

[toteman2]

I have a feeling alot of people are not too sure just what BPM represents...BPM is Beats Per Minute and this represents the TEMPO you're playing at...When sombody says something like "Hey i just played 16ths on the bass at 200 BPM" it does not mean they played only 200 stokes in the minute...If somebody plays at 200 BPM for 1 minute and kept perfect time, they would've hit exactly 800 strokes in that minute...Now take Mangini for example...He played over 1200 single strokes in 1 minute, that is a tempo of just over 300 BPM...Now if any of you have a metronome handy, put it on 300 BPM and just listen to how insanley fast you have to play...Over 20 stokes per SECOND...I have no idea how anyone is able to play that fast...

[SkankinMetalhead]

360 bpm by pete hammouri, the nile drummer. my friend saw em live when they opened for king diamond

those are sixteenth notes by the way. so i guess multiply that number by 4

[YAHAHA]

According to WFD, Tim Waterson is the supposed fastest. However that's only of the people who participate in the competitions, and there are probably woodshedders everywhere who can do 2000 bpm on the feet, but dont know about it.

His scores were Double Pedal Single Strokes - 1,030, Double Pedal Double Strokes - 1,407, Single Pedal (One Foot) 650. These are all bpm.
I checked out the WFD (http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/index.htm)website. Mr. Waterson holds 2 of the foot-speed records. Mr. Mike Mingini holds the foot endurance record. He also holds other WFD records as well; more of an all-around fast drummer as far as WFD records that is.

Current WFD Records:
Matched Grip Singles - 1,247,
Bare Hands Singles - 1,138,
Traditional Grip Singles - 1,126,
Endurance 13,222 Feet Singles in 15 Minutes

Like LDGuy mentioned, this information is only on people who actually participate in the World's Fastest Drummer competitions. I would agree that there are others in the world who are at least close to these guys!

[YAHAHA]

I have a feeling alot of people are not too sure just what BPM represents...BPM is Beats Per Minute and this represents the TEMPO you're playing at...When sombody says something like "Hey i just played 16ths on the bass at 200 BPM" it does not mean they played only 200 stokes in the minute...If somebody plays at 200 BPM for 1 minute and kept perfect time, they would've hit exactly 800 strokes in that minute...Now take Mangini for example...He played over 1200 single strokes in 1 minute, that is a tempo of just over 300 BPM...Now if any of you have a metronome handy, put it on 300 BPM and just listen to how insanley fast you have to play...Over 20 stokes per SECOND...I have no idea how anyone is able to play that fast...
All this seems confusing; especially since you are implying playing 16th notes played in a 4/4 time signature.

I think that it would be less confusing if we just compared using strokes per minute like WFD does.

[ThomasDee]

All this seems confusing; especially since you are implying playing 16th notes played in a 4/4 time signature.

I think that it would be less confusing if we just compared using strokes per minute like WFD does.
I agree, and if I remember correctly BMP is the pulse marking on a metronome. Example if you set the metronome at 120 in 4/4 you will egt 120 pulses in 60 seconds, so forth and so on. With the drumometer it is DM's or 'drumometer markings'. Which is the actual amount of stroke played within a given time. With drumometer it is not limited or based on 60 seconds.

The new drumometer has a built in metronome and goes to something like 15 min. which is great for working on both technique and timing. Plus the 15 minute workouts adds the whole endurance factor, which is what Mike Mangini just set with his feet. Over 13,000!

Back to the poster's orginal question, it is Tim Waterson of Canada and following is his 1407 WFD World Record fro doubles. It opens in windows and can be viewed at:
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/WFDTV/Timwindowmediabroadband.wmv

[NaturalRaz]

Dave Lombardo

Carter Beauford

Dennis Chambers

They are all psycho in thier own way. But Carter and Dennis seem to be much cleaner than most metal drummers.

[Derek Matthews]

there are many fast drummers, my favorite is vinnie paul. coupled with dime (rip) they are awsome to listen to.

[alienworkshop227]

Jordan Mancino, As I Lay dying, 94 hours, off of Frail Words Collapse.. pretty fast

[Kevinm]

Steve Smith early Journey live album!

[DW_DRUMMER0301]

the fastest double player i have ever heard is jordan mancino from as i lay dying he makes thomas lang look like nothing.cheek out the song 94 hours. http://www.myspace.com/asilaydying. so sick!!!!

[finnhiggins]

All this seems confusing; especially since you are implying playing 16th notes played in a 4/4 time signature.

I think that it would be less confusing if we just compared using strokes per minute like WFD does.

You're wrong there - 800 strokes/min from "200bpm 16ths" does not require any assumption of time signature. 16ths = each beat subdivided into four, so to get the number of strokes in a minute you need to multiply the tempo by four. Similarly:

Quarter notes = 1 stroke per beat
8th notes = 2 strokes per beat
8th note triplets = 3 strokes per beat

... etc.

And it makes much more sense to talk about tempo than strokes/min, because you could achieve 1000 strokes in a minute by playing both slower and faster than 250bpm. That measures an average of your top sustained and top burst speed, depending on how you phrase during the minute. Of course, in real life those WFD guys keep a pretty even tempo. But if you want to talk about music, you measure how many BPM you can play a phrase at because that's what matters. Not how many you can play rubato in a minute.

[nemo]

i have seen the king of dubbel bass drumming: tim waterson

[jonescrusher]

@FinnHiggins -


"And it makes much more sense to talk about tempo than strokes/min"
- Disagree with that in this context, given that WFD uses the drumometer as ThomasDee said, which counts the individual strokes made within the time limit, regardless of any reqular time division. Necessarily, Tim Waterson et al. will not be playing perfect subdivisions of a certain tempo. since when was WFD concerned with music?

[x86zero]

This guy has awesome singles: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=410FJCS7

[finnhiggins]

@FinnHiggins -


"And it makes much more sense to talk about tempo than strokes/min"
- Disagree with that in this context, given that WFD uses the drumometer as ThomasDee said, which counts the individual strokes made within the time limit, regardless of any reqular time division. Necessarily, Tim Waterson et al. will not be playing perfect subdivisions of a certain tempo. since when was WFD concerned with music?

We're pretty much on the same page then there, eh? I don't disagree with you - that most certainly is the method WFD use, and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with music. But personally if I'm listening to drummers I really only care about it in a musical context. What use is speed if you can't sustain it at a fixed tempo?

The strokes/minute measure is useful for a competition like WFD in that it doesn't require more than one pass - you just set them playing and in one minute you know the answer. Checking the ability to play fast and in time requires multiple passes with a metronome... so for practical reasons I can see why they do it, but it's really an inferior measure because there are additional demands when it comes to playing to time at fast tempos.

(of course, if you go read the WFD thread you'll know that I don't think anybody should work on technique as something divorced from music... but that's not really that relevent here)

[DamageInc]

suprising none of you have heard of hellhammer, the legendary scandanavian black metal drummer......as sinister as his band mayhem may be, his double bass is by far the fastest ive ever heard..rumor has it he is recording with DIMMU BORGIR, as their master metal skinsman nick barker stepped aside. hellhammer also drums with thorns and arcturus...look them up and you will be amazed. next to him its dimmu borgir's old drummer nick barker.

Reno is taking over for Nick.... Reno Killerich.


and Trym from Emperor is fast. Watch Emperial Live Ceremony and watch "Night Of The Graveless Souls." The intro is insane.

[Bad Drummer]

Tim Waterson is the fasted double base player in the world. Isn't that what this thead is about?

[Luminoth]

sounds n00bish - i agree. but no one is mentioning joey of slipknot?

[Luminoth]

also, i quite like the snare on st. anger. :/

[Speedy]

Ambassador of Pain by Kataklysm. Very fast double bass..faster than 94 hours. Jordan Mancino is awesome though! I have their Frail Worlds Collapse and Shadows are Security. Great Albums!

[mediocrefunkybeat]

sounds n00bish - i agree. but no one is mentioning joey of slipknot?

Nope; no-one is mentioning Joey, because although he is a fast double player, he is nowhere NEAR the level of the drummers we are discussing here. He is a good drummer though; don't get me wrong. Just maybe a little overrated...

[drumbastard]

here's a video of georg kollias..http://www.metal-empire.it/public/kollias/clinic_speed_workout.avi
pretty fast.. i would choose flo though..

[DoubleBassUrFace]

Inferno, from Behemoth, he plays so fast in like, all there music, plus he keeps it steady.

[BigBeatsBoutique]

Yeah, I'd have to go with Dirk Verbeuren. Listen to him play on Soilwork's album "Stabbing The Drama". He's got the ability to play both technical AND fast. And most and important of all, you can nod your head to it.

[Rocky64]

Well, just to quote from Tommy Aldridge's Drummer World "featured drummers" page, " Tommy Aldridge has set the standard for double-bass rock drumming." Not sure if he's the fastest but he is a monster double bass drummer for sure.

[nadslaing]

Raymond Hererra from Fear Factory is very good. Perhaps he isn't the fastest around, but I like his use of double bass.

[Kevinm]

Just looked at the georg kollias vidieo as posted by one member, all he has is fast feet, his time and creativity on the top end was pitiful!

[Tim Waterson]

We're pretty much on the same page then there, eh? I don't disagree with you - that most certainly is the method WFD use, and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with music. But personally if I'm listening to drummers I really only care about it in a musical context. What use is speed if you can't sustain it at a fixed tempo?

The strokes/minute measure is useful for a competition like WFD in that it doesn't require more than one pass - you just set them playing and in one minute you know the answer. Checking the ability to play fast and in time requires multiple passes with a metronome... so for practical reasons I can see why they do it, but it's really an inferior measure because there are additional demands when it comes to playing to time at fast tempos.

(of course, if you go read the WFD thread you'll know that I don't think anybody should work on technique as something divorced from music... but that's not really that relevent here)
There are SO many FAST drummers nowadays it is hard to keep track.
THE NEW DUMOMETER has a metrenome built into it and this will be very helpfull But
Locking in at WFD speeds and maintaining it for 60 seconds is VERY difficult to do.
I took a LOT of flack on how sloppy the record was but yes I was just trying to last the 60 seconds without Spontaneously combusting.
There are only a few drummers that can maintain 250+ for 60 seconds and not fall out of time.I find it easier to play fast on a drumset keeping a groove rather than just doing the feet for 60 mseconds.
PS FLO and Gene are of my Favs
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[finnhiggins]

There are SO many FAST drummers nowadays it is hard to keep track.
THE NEW DUMOMETER has a metrenome built into it and this will be very helpfull But
Locking in at WFD speeds and maintaining it for 60 seconds is VERY difficult to do.
I took a LOT of flack on how sloppy the record was but yes I was just trying to last the 60 seconds without Spontaneously combusting.
There are only a few drummers that can maintain 250+ for 60 seconds and not fall out of time.I find it easier to play fast on a drumset keeping a groove rather than just doing the feet for 60 mseconds.
PS FLO and Gene are of my Favs
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

Hey Tim, nice to see you here!

I think the difficulty you're referencing there with the whole 60 seconds thing is probably quite in line with the more "athletic" nature of WFD versus real world musical requirements. As musicians we don't normally have to think about pacing ourselves - you play what you need to play, and if you can't do it then you work a bit more on endurance until you can. But if you're competing on an athletic level then the whole ideal is that you're constantly pushing the top of your game, and pacing then becomes vital so you can last the distance. There's no point starting a marathon at full sprint, you'll wear yourself out. But equally, take off at a nice brisk walk and you'll be arriving a day after everybody else.

But this is the danger, for me, of making deliberate comparisons of who is the "fastest". How do you measure? Do you want the guy who can do the fastest group of six strokes in the context of a fill, or the guy who can keep up singles for a minute? After all, the former is easier to get to a much higher speed and is more useful in the majority of music. But then, it's not as hard as lasting the full minute, as you've done. For me, I just care if it sounds good in context - speed can come a very distant second.

[mlehnertz]

Every time I see this thread I can't help but think of a guy standing in the back of the orchestra, bow in hand, trying to set a double bass speed record.

I wonder which grip he'd use, the French or German...

[finnhiggins]

Every time I see this thread I can't help but think of a guy standing in the back of the orchestra, bow in hand, trying to set a double bass speed record.


You're not alone there. It's a good image...

[Tim Waterson]

Every time I see this thread I can't help but think of a guy standing in the back of the orchestra, bow in hand, trying to set a double bass speed record.

I wonder which grip he'd use, the French or German...

Good to see a sense of humour on the site.
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[Bernhard]

I just have the strong feeling, that my lawnmower beats them all....

Listen the sound and the acceleration near the end.....

Bernhard

[DoubleBassUrFace]

ive probably already said him, but what about Inferno from Behemoth, somebody prolly already mentioned him, oh well, i brought him up again. Anyways, he keeps really fast steady beats in alot of songs.

[W.O.A.]

Those 3 canadian drummer are truelly awesome, listen to Kataklysm, Quo Vadis and Cryptopsy. Crypstopsy have one of the best metal drummer : my opinion (is name is Flo Mounier for the ones who dont already know...) .

[DrumSetMan19]

i think the fastest double bass drum is dennis chambers and neil peart


haha i dont think they play double bass that much but they are most amazing

but i think virgil donati is most accomplished at keeping basic rudiments with speed


WFD top 20 for double bass (http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/battle%20of%20the%20feet.htm)

[rendezvous_drummer]

didn't tim waterson win the fastest double bass player?

[DMNofDSTRCTN]

Raymond Hererra from Fear Factory is very good. Perhaps he isn't the fastest around, but I like his use of double bass.


yeh I agree, raymond herrera might not be the fastest of em all, but he keeps very clean beats and keeps them synchronized in all his songs. If you have heard slave labour their is some awesome double bass speed in that

[DMNofDSTRCTN]

the fastest double player i have ever heard is jordan mancino from as i lay dying he makes thomas lang look like nothing.cheek out the song 94 hours. http://www.myspace.com/asilaydying. so sick!!!!


jordan mancino f**kin rocks man! the double kicking in 94 hours is insane!!! by far the fastest i have heard since joey. also travis smith from trivium is pretty quick

[DrumGod]

but it is for sure not lars ulrich :D
He faster then mine.
Vinne paul is preety quick for a fat dude

[fasthands]

Im not sure if its really all about being the fastest.

Drumming of any genre is an art form and should be played at all times with full musical notation.

Fastest is not always the best.

[Derek Matthews]

Im not sure if its really all about being the fastest.

Drumming of any genre is an art form and should be played at all times with full musical notation.

Fastest is not always the best. for this thread it's all about being fastest... but I agree the musical aspect in the speed needs to be apparent.

[Tim Waterson]

christy is the s*** dude, but pete sandoval has the fastest damn feet on a track (opening of the gates - morbid angel)

Pete is great and so is Richard but I hate to burst your bubble on opening of the gates but that has already been revealed by DEREK RODDY one of Petes best friends that the song was not PETE but a machine AGAINST PETE's wishes Trey quantized the pattern with a drum machine. I also Hear Pete refuses to play the song Live in retaliation.
IMHO.....PETE IS WAY TO GOOD FOR M.A. anyways.
watch out for George Kollias NILES New drummer most of their NEW material is 260 bpm.
God Bless
Tim
www.timwateson.com

[The Rev #2]

If Mike Mangini can do 1,205 single strokes a minute. I wonder wat he could do with his feet with some time, and I bet i could do pretty damn good.

[TeddyParker]

I'm getting better at double bass, it's so fun. It can sound so good once you finally get it right and it stays consistent. Once you get it down messing with metal riffs is easy but real fun.

[rendezvous_drummer]

not too sure who is the fastest double bass player but one question. WHAT DOES IMO MEAN?

[DogBreath]

WHAT DOES IMO MEAN?

"In my opinion." Check out Wikipedia's list of Internet slang. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_slang) It's rather comprehensive, so some of them are derisive, insulting, or otherwise offensive.

[Nunner]

hey guys, i dont really know who the fastest bouble kick player is, but really do u have to be fast there is alot more to double kick than just kicking 16ths all the time. i personally think that 16ths are good but it is the easy way out, if u can think of a good bass riff u just go with double kick, think more and come up with a kick ass bass line do do with ur double kick. dont take the easy way out.


nunner

[diddlefreak]

Just looked at the georg kollias vidieo as posted by one member, all he has is fast feet, his time and creativity on the top end was pitiful!

dude, he wasn't trying to be creative, it was a clinic and he was obviously demonstrating double bass technique. His drumming on the new Nile record is awesome.

[jackothedrummer1]

Fastest, Tim Waterson, 1,407 strokes in 60 seconds.

I have never heard Mr. Waterson play however in a musical situation. Derek Roddy takes a lot of it very well in musical situations. I'm not sure what you can do with double bass over 300 bpm, hahaha!

[Quick.sticks]

Virgil and Thomas (cuz they have different techniques)...

End of this thread !....

[DrumNut]

Tiger Bill has some of the fastest feet, just watch his videos on DRUM!

And he doesnt need to focus on it like those speed metal guys, yet is faster

[toteman2]

This thread has been here a long time, so what the hell i guess i will join it for fun...The name of the thread is "Fastest Double Bass Player"...Now if the thread had been named "Most musical drummer" I could understand it going on for so long, with tons and tons of drummers names thrown out there...However this thread is about "speed", which is something that can be measured...The FASTEST DBL BASS player in the world is Tim Waterson...NOBODY has been recorded doing anything with greater speed than Tim...

[JT1]

hey guys, i dont really know who the fastest bouble kick player is, but really do u have to be fast there is alot more to double kick than just kicking 16ths all the time. i personally think that 16ths are good but it is the easy way out, if u can think of a good bass riff u just go with double kick, think more and come up with a kick ass bass line do do with ur double kick. dont take the easy way out.


nunner

Totally agree with you! Double bass doesn't have to be constant some of the best double bass players are more concerned with technique over speed i mean look at Joe Franco he has excellent technique with his feet.

[jake]

he's prolly not the fastest double bass guy, but nickelback fired their little readhead drummer and they have the old 3 doors down drummer and the intro to the first track on their new album has some pretty cool double bass

[east]

How about Charli Benante, I recall reading somewhere that in recording sessions his double bass play would be so fast that the recording would come out as one single long sounding hit instead of loads of double bass hits. He is also extremely fast live.

[melodicspeed]

Jörg Michael from Stratovarius is pretty much the fastest double bass player ive heard. i strongly recommend listening to a song called Holy Solos live verison. About 7:40 mins into the song it blows your mind. All of their songs are awesome.

[Jookbox]

the fastest double bass players are probably tim waterson and tiger bill

[sonor master]

i think the best double pedal is dennis chambers!

[DamageInc]

suprising none of you have heard of hellhammer, the legendary scandanavian black metal drummer......as sinister as his band mayhem may be, his double bass is by far the fastest ive ever heard..rumor has it he is recording with DIMMU BORGIR, as their master metal skinsman nick barker stepped aside. hellhammer also drums with thorns and arcturus...look them up and you will be amazed. next to him its dimmu borgir's old drummer nick barker.


Yeah Hellhammer's touring with them or something

[Thinshells]

Bernard M Snyder is the fastest double bass player. Here he is in action:

http://www.onemanband.org/omb-photo/beach.jpg

[mediocrefunkybeat]

Bernard M Snyder is the fastest double bass player. Here he is in action:

http://www.onemanband.org/omb-photo/beach.jpg

Damn straight. Thinshells: the board's lateral thinker.

[Darmikalus]

arent we all forgetting someone namd virgil donati? sure he may not be the fastest, but do you knoew how hard it is to do 32nd double bqassnotes, for liek a minute straight... but QUietly? its neaar impssible!

[mdterps1042]

george kollias is the fastest. end of story.

[jhomer]

The world record holder for fastest double bass playing is Tim Waterson, 1407 beats in 1 minute. Beat that!!! But for drummers who really play fast music, I have to go with Hellhammer (Dimmu Borgir, Mayhem, Kovenant, Arcturus ... )

[avengedxdrummer]

SOMEONE HAVE ANY ADVICE 4 me with the double pedal , im so scared well nervous that i wont get the hang of it, ANY ADVICE????

[(sic)]

practice. honestly, i felt the same way, but i've been going for about 4 months or so with the pedal, and i'm OK with it now. Start slow and speed up when you feel comfortable

[Symbolic]

The fastest record for double bass is Tim Waterson, I'm not sure of the exact number but it was very high, around 255-265bpm. The bpm thing people are talking about, what it is that alot of people who are into metal drumming say for example 215bpm. They mean 16th notes at 215 bpm. The fastest double bass in a musical context that I am aware of is for George Kolias of Nile that has a song with 16th notes at 264bpm. Derek Roddy of Hate Eternal has some songs that are 16th notes at 250+bpm.

[Symbolic]

For someone to be able to play 16th notes at 300bpm the ankle or leg( whichever the player uses) would have to change direction something like .0175 seconds. I believe that is the correct number, there was a debate on another forum about this that had all the math. That is insane how fast the human body would have to change. I'll try to find it.

[ThomasDee]

Pete is great and so is Richard but I hate to burst your bubble on opening of the gates but that has already been revealed by DEREK RODDY one of Petes best friends that the song was not PETE but a machine AGAINST PETE's wishes Trey quantized the pattern with a drum machine. I also Hear Pete refuses to play the song Live in retaliation.
IMHO.....PETE IS WAY TO GOOD FOR M.A. anyways.
watch out for George Kollias NILES New drummer most of their NEW material is 260 bpm.
God Bless
Tim
www.timwateson.com
Hi Tim, it's Tommy. I hate to tell you and I have seen thousands of WFD releated threads especially fastest feet and the absolutely worst 'bubble burster' is to see the name TIM WATERSON. haha!

Dude, we know each other, but come on, you have held the two top WFD World Records for like 5 years in a row. right? Insane!

There's tons of metal threads and I have even edited clips for some of these sites and they have been betting on all these metal guys for years that were going to knock you off. Where are they? First before you answer let me say 1030 single strokes in 60 seconds is not a monkey in training. Try 1/16ths at 200 and I think you are at 800 which is pretty close to 'DogBoots' by Virgil. right?

Are you going out to do the WFD at NAMM, if so what can we expect? I know you are not eligible to compete for the $12,000 in prizes, but also what hot young gun with the feet can we expect to come out of this WFD?

How about Thomas Lang? What's up with that?

TD

[greygoose]

kevin biggs........................

[riffraff]

I say the three fastest is Tim Waterson, Derek Roody and Virgil Donati

[roll_model]

I've seen Thomas Lang is he's gotta be one of the quickest double bass players without a doubt. Also technique wise, he's amazing. An upcoming drummer that's pretty sick too is Benny Greb.

[averypoordrummer]

the drummer for chimaira is insane, but im not a fan of them at all. what about virgil donati?

[Looking_For_A_Band]

i just recently signed up here. i myself dont play drums, but that doesnt mean i dont enjoy hearin drumming. im surprised to see that nobody in this forum has mentioned jason bittner from shadows fall, though he might have been mentioned else where. id say he is the fastest. he can keep time and technique. if anyone else thinks otherwise, please let me know.

[Nogoodnature]

#1 fastest drummer is Rory Koff, (No Use For A Name) on the song "on the outside"
also smelly from NOFX is pretty good. The Decendents are fast as well.

[Alucard]

Yeah! Hellhammer(real name Jan Axel Von Bloomberg) are the fastest metal drummer alive today, no one is like him, trust me... I am a professional drummer, and i know what i say, Hellhammer are unique, because first, he's a jazz-drummer... Who agree whit me?

[Alucard]

For DamageInc, Hellhammer is more more faster than Reno, in fact, Dimmu Borgir have chosen Hellhammer... Listen to Stormblast Re-Mastered... I have Emperial Live Ceremony, and Trym Torson it's a normal black metal drummer, nothing special... Hellhammer is unreachable, remember this...

[Tamadrummer778]

Tim Waterson is runnin about 1400 beats per minute

[rendezvous_drummer]

Daniel Adair man! Awesome double bass work.

[Lil' Drummer Boy]

You should hear Ron Tutt right here on drummerworld on his solo with Elvis himself!!! Sweetest doublebass i've ever heard!!!

[stapes2260]

that flo mournier guy is fast as hell, but then again, who cares who the fastest is? The important thing is using speed in a musical context.

[AKAM_DRUMS]

raymond herrera he is a fast dubbel bas player he plays in a band called fear factory. then you can listen to hate eternal derek roddy plays in hate eternal go to www.derekroddy.com and chek out for your self

[TonKpilS_657]

sorry to bring back an old thread, but Kevin Talley has to be the second fastest double bass drummer ever. Listen to the song Everything You Love off of Chimaira's self titled album. Incredible double bass speed around one minute into the song.

[toxegendrummer]

George Kollias of Nile has a bit of pace behind when it comes to feet.

Chris Adler may not be the fastest but his got some of the most technical bass drumming ive heard in a while

[jitepes]

there are 100's of gore/grind core drummers that are faster then anyone who ever took part in a fastest drummer comp. or are in a popular band(slipknote, morbid angel, dimmu borgir, ect.). they just dont boast it because they simpley dont care.

[SilentKnight]

Dave Holland.............. Not...

[dr.drum]

the drummer from Dragon Force is insane when it comes to playing db

[mario_H]

Tim "Silver Feet" Waterson has the fastest feet
1,030 - Singles in 60 sec
1,407 - Doubles in 60 sec
650 - Single pedal one foot in 60 sec

[p.thompson]

Tommy Aldridge is awesome

[ad9898]

i think if your talking WFD then tim holds these records both singles and doubles, however from a musical point of view i think what derek roddy said on his forum is true that playing these beats in isolation for a certain amount of time (60 seconds) bares no resemblence to doing it in a musical situation,, and from a musical point of view the only people he has seen doing 255+bpm are george kollias and tony laureno. For sheer speed Annhilation of the Wicked by Nile has to be heard to be believed.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Mayhem's first minute of their song DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL from CHIMERA ALBUM (by HELLHAMMER) and Morbid Angel's GATES TO ANNIHILATION Album (by PETE SANDOVAL) can give you a nice/accurate example of ULTRA fast double bass work. Believe me... as fast as Waterson or FASTER (just not officialy...). I wouldn't recommend these specific tracks if I didn't know this music... some Black and MANY Death metal bands are, obviously, quite known for their fast double-bass players. Hellhammer and Pete Sandoval stay from equal to above ALL of them (all the main guys I've ever heard inside the xtreme metal domain). For the believers: enjoy ;)

[xXMETALCOREDRUMMERXx]

Yes, tim waterson won the fastest feet record but, if you watch the video he is leaning over the bass drum. i dont think he can play that fast with the hands

[The_Chaotic_One]

Jordan Mancino, As I Lay dying, 94 hours, off of Frail Words Collapse.. pretty fast

I'd like to ask what part of the song you think was fast?

[The_Chaotic_One]

I believe Tim Yeung now holds the record for the most single bassdrum strokes in one minute at 872!

I think the fastest musically would have to be some of these dudes...

George Kollias, Derek Roddy, Gene Hoglan, Tony Laureano, Flo Mournier, Hellhammer, Pete Hammoura, Tim Yeung, Dave Haley, Dave Culross, Mark Simpson, Alex Marquez, James King, John J. Longstreth, Martin Maurais, Pete Sandoval, Frost, Horgh, Richard Christy, Sean Reinert.

[Tim Waterson]

Yes, tim waterson won the fastest feet record but, if you watch the video he is leaning over the bass drum. i dont think he can play that fast with the hands

Yes but Tim Waterson was getting tired maybe he's getting OLD too LOL
No my feeet are faster but my hands are getting there.
I Have still run over 1000 with my hands in singles not bad for an OLD tired guy LOL
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[toteman2]

Alright. END OF THREAD!

The thread really only needed to be 1 post long, because there is a correct answer and only 1 correct answer. Speed is something that can be measured. Nobody has ever been recorded playing faster than Tim.

[Stu_Strib]

Fastest "Double Bass"?

Charles Mingus?

Stanley Clark?

heheh

[tambian89]

Yeah! Hellhammer (real name Jan Axel Von Bloomberg) is the fastest metal drummer alive today, no one is like him, trust me... I am a professional drummer, and i know what i say, Hellhammer is unique, because first, he's a jazz-drummer... Who agrees with me?

I definately agree. Von Bloomberg studied jazz to get his double bassing and hand speed up to par, and from there, he practiced really hard until he reached over 200 bpm. Next to Tim Waterson and George Kollias, I think he has the fastest feet.

- Marc

[Bad Drummer]

Alright. END OF THREAD!

The thread really only needed to be 1 post long, because there is a correct answer and only 1 correct answer. Speed is something that can be measured. Nobody has ever been recorded playing faster than Tim.

I agree. This is like saying who has the fastest hands in the world. There is only one real test we can go on, and that is the WFD competition. Tim Waterson has the fastest feet, end of story.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Yeah! Hellhammer(real name Jan Axel Von Bloomberg) are the fastest metal drummer alive today, no one is like him, trust me... I am a professional drummer, and i know what i say, Hellhammer are unique, because first, he's a jazz-drummer... Who agree whit me?

Maybe a little too obvious (specially for real Mayhem fans - me included). His drumming on De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas is creepy... he adds a sublevel (a whole LEVEL, actually) to the already added guitar riffs and the result is oddly phenomenal: one of the best metal drumming performances to ever be recorded on tape (ok, in studio...;). The drums almost speak dark words to the listener.. it's almost like if he (HH)'s playing in a cave (or something similar). The guy's great, a true legend in Norway (for both talent-wise and "cryptic" reasons).He plays on a great Pearl white kit (nowadays, at least) and has great speed mastery and technical proficiency (he's too good for a metal drummer, sometimes...). I'd put him next to Sandoval, Kollias, Roddy and Waterson, as far as double bass velocity goes.

[UltimateDrummer55555]

Alright. Now George Kollias is the fastest I've heard and yes i herd tim waterson, he's fast, but not as fast as george IMO. Jason Bittner is coming out with some new stuff and its said to be his fast double kick by far so watch out for that. I think that by the end of the summer I could beat that record for one foot and 2 ft with one foot.
As mentioned before listen to that Annihilation of the Wicked by Nile becuasse that is pretty insane.Dennis chambers is the best one footed player I've seen. I haven't seen him try to play fast with his double bass but his one foot is insane. Gene Hoglan is in the running but not there IMO. There are prolly some drummers out there that might possibly faster than george or tim but there is noway of knowing until we hear it.

[Tim Waterson]

Alright. Now George Kollias is the fastest I've heard and yes i herd tim waterson, he's fast, but not as fast as george IMO. Jason Bittner is coming out with some new stuff and its said to be his fast double kick by far so watch out for that. I think that by the end of the summer I could beat that record for one foot and 2 ft with one foot.
As mentioned before listen to that Annihilation of the Wicked by Nile becuasse that is pretty insane.Dennis chambers is the best one footed player I've seen. I haven't seen him try to play fast with his double bass but his one foot is insane. Gene Hoglan is in the running but not there IMO. There are prolly some drummers out there that might possibly faster than george or tim but there is noway of knowing until we hear it.
Yes,
GEORGE is GREAT also SUPER fast and a VERY cool drummer!
I can play at 260bpm so can George, he also has a drum tech that can play at 260 .
Orifist can play at 260 Derek and Tony can probably reach that as well
The 270 is super hard to hold arrrggghhhh.
I give George extra credit as he plays at those tempos everynight and makes it look almost effortless.
NO don't RULE out Mean GENE HOGLAN he is an amazing drummer also and one of my favorites!
I love Dennis but, JO JO MAYER is the best single footed player I have ever seen........
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[zildjian_dude101]

George Kollias, Tim Waterson, Joey Jordison, And the Rev. For single foot, I think JoJo Mayer is the fastest I've seen.

[TheAnalogKid]

in 'straight double bass' technique:

Raymond Herrera
Joey Jordison
Virgil Donati

in 'heel-toe' method
Virgil Donati
Thomas Lang

[Tim Waterson]

in 'straight double bass' technique:

Raymond Herrera
Joey Jordison
Virgil Donati

in 'heel-toe' method
Virgil Donati
Thomas Lang

Sorry to correct you BUT Vigil and Thomas DO NOT use heel toe.
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[RickJames]

Is it possible to do moeller technique with the feet?

[Tim Waterson]

Is it possible to do moeller technique with the feet?

Years ago I was told The motion I was doing but a group of drum instructors in Vancouver.
You simply whip your ankles to the side and control how many hits you want.
Hope this helps and PS This will all be on my NEW DVD.
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[UltimateDrummer55555]

Yes,
GEORGE is GREAT also SUPER fast and a VERY cool drummer!
I can play at 260bpm so can George, he also has a drum tech that can play at 260 .
Orifist can play at 260 Derek and Tony can probably reach that as well
The 270 is super hard to hold arrrggghhhh.
I give George extra credit as he plays at those tempos everynight and makes it look almost effortless.
NO don't RULE out Mean GENE HOGLAN he is an amazing drummer also and one of my favorites!
I love Dennis but, JO JO MAYER is the best single footed player I have ever seen........
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

I agree with tim about this except for the JO JO Mayer is Faster one footed player than Dennis because Jo Jo uses a heel toe method along with sliding his feet with is like cheating IMO, unlike dennis and i think that dennis does play it faster watch his salute to buddy rich video fron the 90's and his clinic solo from In the Pocket.

[finnhiggins]

I agree with tim about this except for the JO JO Mayer is Faster one footed player than Dennis because Jo Jo uses a heel toe method along with sliding his feet with is like cheating IMO, unlike dennis and i think that dennis does play it faster watch his salute to buddy rich video fron the 90's and his clinic solo from In the Pocket.

Mate... nothing is "Cheating" if it gets you more notes out of one foot. That's just like saying that it's cheating to use your fingers to get a faster single-stroke roll, or that it's cheating to play from the wrist instead of the shoulder.

[T-1000]

haha, Finns, is the dualist cheating? (gets you more hits out of one foot...)

Yes, I know Dogbreath, I should have gone to 'the dualist debate' forum to ask that question...

[Tim Waterson]

I agree with tim about this except for the JO JO Mayer is Faster one footed player than Dennis because Jo Jo uses a heel toe method along with sliding his feet with is like cheating IMO, unlike dennis and i think that dennis does play it faster watch his salute to buddy rich video fron the 90's and his clinic solo from In the Pocket.
I live Dennis and Have Seen him MANY times watch whe\at dennis does up close as I have and you'll see....
I have seen JO JO up close as he demonstrated it for me when we were trading technique tips doing the Single foot swivel (you'll see George and other death guys do this)
JO JO was doing this faster than his heel toe stuff just for FUN.
There is probably someone else doing it faster on the other side of the world.....
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[The_Chaotic_One]

Didn't Tim Yeung win this years WFD comp in fastest single strokes?

[Tim Waterson]

Didn't Tim Yeung win this years WFD comp in fastest single strokes?
Yes
Tim won this year at NAMM he blistered 872 powerful strokes to win this years competition..
NOW before ALL the other drummers come out and say What? I can do blah blah blah faster that that.........
TIM's feet were solid and powerfull and he was not squeezing the hip flexor to create a shiver..
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[The_Chaotic_One]

Yes
Tim won this year at NAMM he blistered 872 powerful strokes to win this years competition..
NOW before ALL the other drummers come out and say What? I can do blah blah blah faster that that.........
TIM's feet were solid and powerfull and he was not squeezing the hip flexor to create a shiver..
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

Yea I watched his vid on his website man he was tight as! it wasn't just hit the pedals as fast as you can it was actually in time!

[Tim Waterson]

Daniel Adair man! Awesome double bass work.
Too many Great drummers to keep up with LOL
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[sonor master]

i hate this drummer but i think faster db bass player is joey jordison look to war up video of im in drummerworl

[sonor master]

warm up* video!!!!!!

[sonor master]

of im* ...................... im bad

[The_Chaotic_One]

i hate this drummer but i think faster db bass player is joey jordison look to war up video of im in drummerworl

Man read the thread from the start there are plenty of drummers who have faster bass drum technique that bloody JJ!

[Tim Waterson]

Hi Tim, it's Tommy. I hate to tell you and I have seen thousands of WFD releated threads especially fastest feet and the absolutely worst 'bubble burster' is to see the name TIM WATERSON. haha!

Dude, we know each other, but come on, you have held the two top WFD World Records for like 5 years in a row. right? Insane!

There's tons of metal threads and I have even edited clips for some of these sites and they have been betting on all these metal guys for years that were going to knock you off. Where are they? First before you answer let me say 1030 single strokes in 60 seconds is not a monkey in training. Try 1/16ths at 200 and I think you are at 800 which is pretty close to 'DogBoots' by Virgil. right?

Are you going out to do the WFD at NAMM, if so what can we expect? I know you are not eligible to compete for the $12,000 in prizes, but also what hot young gun with the feet can we expect to come out of this WFD?

How about Thomas Lang? What's up with that?

TD
Hey Tommy
Thomas is checking out the drumometer and he will let us know how he plans to use it.
After recieving criticism about my world records being sloppy...........
This year at NAMM I really tried to focus on playing accuately with the metrenome my best run was 956 with the click at 240 should have read 960 I can hardly ever get it right on.LOL
I also used the same pedals as everyone else ,
not MY SUPER DUPER TURBO CHARGED MIDGET POWERED NITRO AXIS special edition PEDALS................
As for having the record for 5 years well luck is on my side as a matter of fact.
I spoke to drummer the other day who swears at least 14 drummers will wipe my doubles record off the map so we will have to wait and see.....
As for the 1030 I have broken that unofficially at home and I hear others are doing the same thing....I want to have a CLEAN run over 1050 I will keep you posted.....
Tim

[flyerorange]

The late Eric Carr of KISS. Listen to any of his live stuff, or Carr Jam from the Revenge album.

[tambian89]

Years ago I was told The motion I was doing but a group of drum instructors in Vancouver.
You simply whip your ankles to the side and control how many hits you want.
Hope this helps and PS This will all be on my NEW DVD.
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

JoJo Mayer uses this in the video I saw (on this site), and he goes amazingly fast.

- Marc

[drumz4eva]

jesus, you guys no nothing

tim waterson has the fastest feet, he still holds a record of 1,030 singles and 1,407 doubles.

[hardhitter]

If you had to pick one drummer, who would you say the fastest double bass player is? On which song? cd?


I think we are all off point here? I think the question was in a song not sitting at the WFD.
Tim you got the fastest feet theres no fighting that. But in a song I have to say it's Derek Roddy.(Nile) as speed goes. Nile now has Pete Hammoura as there drummer who is also fast. If you want to talk about speed and skill I would say that's Adler. His beats are hard to play.

This is all just my opinion. I'm sure there are bands and drummers out there that are fast. Well I know there are. There just not out there yet. Like the drummer for If hope dies.

[The_Chaotic_One]

I think we are all off point here? I think the question was in a song not sitting at the WFD.
Tim you got the fastest feet theres no fighting that. But in a song I have to say it's Derek Roddy.(Nile) as speed goes. Nile now has Pete Hammoura as there drummer who is also fast. If you want to talk about speed and skill I would say that's Adler. His beats are hard to play.

This is all just my opinion. I'm sure there are bands and drummers out there that are fast. Well I know there are. There just not out there yet. Like the drummer for If hope dies.

Derek only played on SOME of 'Black Seeds Of Vengeance' by Nile, and their current drummer is actually George Kollias whom I would say is the fastest drummer in a song to my knowledge, correct me if I am wrong on the song bit :)

[hardhitter]

Derek only played on SOME of 'Black Seeds Of Vengeance' by Nile, and their current drummer is actually George Kollias whom I would say is the fastest drummer in a song to my knowledge, correct me if I am wrong on the song bit :)


Yes George Kollias was on the last one Annihilation Of The Wicked. Derek did play on Black seeds of vengeance. The first drummer for nile was Pete Hammoura. I got them mixed up there sorry.LOL I wish they would just keep one. LOL


Derek has played with Hate Eternal ,Council Of The Fallen ,Aurora Borealis ,Nile ,
Imperial Crystalline Entombment and Dead Syndicate .




check out the video of Derek( Behold Judas Studio Video ) it's under media.. thats fast!!

http://www.derekroddy.com/

[beatsMcGee]

why dosnt tim waterson's info say that "DW pro" stuff, hes qualified as pro right ? sorry for the off topic post

[mattsmith]

why dosnt tim waterson's info say that "DW pro" stuff, hes qualified as pro right ? sorry for the off topic post

I think there are probly a bunch of drummers on this forum who are pros and just don't want the label, so they can be more like one of us and not be in all those goofy "what kinda sticks do you use" conversations. I think its a stand up thing for Tim to do.

[Backwards Marathon]

the guy from morbid angel is fast...but not as fast as hellhammer, nobody is
Any specific song that hes the fastest in?

[MSUMetal]

Chad Kent of Atomship with his songs Mothra, Aliens, and Whitfield. That guy is an amazing all around drummer. He's my vote, only problem with Mothra, even though it's the fastest, is that it's hard to hear unless you have a nice system in your car or something.

[Tyrnox]

I'm surprised Hellhammer hasn't been mentioned much in this thread... Then again I don't like him just because hes a fast drummer, but the work he does...wow...

Winds is such an amazing breathaking band, every listen sends shivers down my spine, it's just amazingly beautfifull music.
Arcturus is also exquisite stuff, took me a little bit to get used to but I would consider any album off Arcturus to be amazing material.

I also liked The Kovenant, another, yet completely different band, in a complete different style.

Hell the only work I don't particularly like from Hellhammer much is Mayhem...

[The_Chaotic_One]

Any specific song that hes the fastest in?

Yes there is also Pete Sandoval, from Morbid Angel! how the hell did I forget him haha, he was one of the first to play that fast though!

[The_Chaotic_One]

Yes George Kollias was on the last one Annihilation Of The Wicked. Derek did play on Black seeds of vengeance. The first drummer for nile was Pete Hammoura. I got them mixed up there sorry.LOL I wish they would just keep one. LOL


Derek has played with Hate Eternal ,Council Of The Fallen ,Aurora Borealis ,Nile ,
Imperial Crystalline Entombment and Dead Syndicate .




check out the video of Derek( Behold Judas Studio Video ) it's under media.. thats fast!!

http://www.derekroddy.com/

Yes, I also have his first video as well, the exercise one, it's bloody awesome I say, done wonders for my endurance and independance etc, Derek also played in a band called Deboning Method which are awsome IMHO but as far as I know only ever released an EP or Demo, love that stuff :)

[beatsMcGee]

I think there are probly a bunch of drummers on this forum who are pros and just don't want the label, so they can be more like one of us and not be in all those goofy "what kinda sticks do you use" conversations. I think its a stand up thing for Tim to do.

yea i agree, just maing sure that he turned down the offer, instead of the offer never being offered...... (confusion)

[Ramsh]

I think we all are fast, it's only a question of practice and improvement
You can't ever say who's the fastest one today or tomorrow

[jamsjr44]

Checkout - Martin Lopez from the band Opeth he is pretty sick! Deliverance is the song to check out!

[ThomasDee]

Great thread. The foot story or battle of the WFD feet is between the two Tim's. Tim Waterson and Tim Yeung. Legend has it that Tim Yeung won the WFD Battle of the Feet at this past World Finals after having the Drumometer to work with for ONLY one day.

So, by the time he gets to next World Finals just think of what he's going to be doing?

One can only imagine ????

Dude made $6,000.00 in one minute. That's $100.00 a second.

TD

[Ashton Drum's]

Check this video out of the nile drummer at A clinic pretty crazy
(Note may take A few minutes to load)

http://www.metal-empire.it/public/kollias/clinic_speed_workout.avi

[ThomasDee]

Check this video out of the nile drummer at A clinic pretty crazy
(Note may take A few minutes to load)

http://www.metal-empire.it/public/kollias/clinic_speed_workout.avi
Is it a video of Tim Yeung playing with Nile or in clinic etc? I'm still waiting on it to load, been awhile.

[Bernhard]

Again and again:

When I look at pictures from Picasso and Rembrandt:

I watch the pictures and don't ask, which one had the faster paint-brush.....
For machine gun sounds my solution is my old Milwaukee Lawn-Mower. But again also: when mowing - saison starts now - I plug in my i-pod and listen to music

Bernhard

[pimp_my_RIDE]

I think George Kolialos from nile wicked fast in some songs and so is the drummer from murderdolls if youve ever sen one of his solos

[osamasgoat5467]

Tim Waterson holds the world records for double bass.

[ThomasDee]

The story of the WFD Fastest Feet is building between the two Tim's. That's Tim Waterson current fastest feet and Tim Yeung who just won the Battle of the Feet at last WFD World Finals.

HAHA! funny stuff about the lawn mower and I think I know what you are trying to say. Beauty is often in the eye of the beholder, some like mowers others like double bass at 1000 dm's. HAHA!

[Cap'n Sith Park]

The Q posed by Speedy was pick one drummer who you would say is fastest, song, CD

There are many ways to look at achieving a proper answer

- 1) This is Relative to one person's opinion (favorite, from their knowledge Etc.)

- 2) A scientifically approached technical study on who simply has the fastest foot speed (do other factors enter: Power, Technique, Speed, Style, Pattern and Endurance - for how long of a period of time is the solution based on)

- 3) A judgement based from a recorded piece of music, solo or performance that is, in a way 'frozen' in time

Because there are so many transient factors - Who may be the fastest during any given period of time: month, day or year will always be in a state of change (past, present or future)

IMO all of these drummers (ranging from amateur to professional) mentioned above (and some that haven't been mentioned yet - why, as jitepes states there are those fast-footed drummers who don't even care to be recognized) are all deserving of props & recognition for their practice, dedication & efforts

CHEERS 2 U ALL!

[The_Chaotic_One]

The Q posed by Speedy was pick one drummer who you would say is fastest, song, CD

There are many ways to look at achieving a proper answer

- 1) This is Relative to one person's opinion (favorite, from their knowledge Etc.)

- 2) A scientifically approached technical study on who simply has the fastest foot speed (do other factors enter: Power, Technique, Speed, Style, Pattern and Endurance - for how long of a period of time is the solution based on)

- 3) A judgement based from a recorded piece of music, solo or performance that is, in a way 'frozen' in time

Because there are so many transient factors - Who may be the fastest during any given period of time: month, day or year will always be in a state of change (past, present or future)

IMO all of these drummers (ranging from amateur to professional) mentioned above (and some that haven't been mentioned yet - why, as jitepes states there are those fast-footed drummers who don't even care to be recognized) are all deserving of props & recognition for their practice, dedication & efforts

CHEERS 2 U ALL!


I still think George Kollias is the fastest.

[ventor]

Im not sure if its really all about being the fastest.

Drumming of any genre is an art form and should be played at all times with full musical notation.

Fastest is not always the best.
you are damn right, look at the former Kataklysm drummer (forgot his name, the guy who drummed on serenety in fire for example), he was just fast but I dont like that way of playing, it is boring

[ad9898]

I think reading what was asked in the first post on this subject....the fastest double bass drummer and on which song.....i think at the moment its fairly common knowledge that on a record it is George Kollias, i'm pretty certain this is a fact rather than an opinion.......and the song....well take your pick off Annhilation Of The Wicked....but again i think in actual fact its Suffer Unto Sebak clocking in at 265bpm.

[MOONCHILD]

ok im not a big fan of double pedals i think it only makes your job easy and i dont like it easy but if i have to it would be dave lombardo

[AvengedDrummer]

LORD MARCO!!!! blahblah20202020

[jollymosher]

ide say derek roddy, or a member of our very own drummerworld "Lord marco" that kid is insane.

[The_Chaotic_One]

ok im not a big fan of double pedals i think it only makes your job easy and i dont like it easy but if i have to it would be dave lombardo

Make the job easy? maybe if you are playing really slow stuff, watch a video of George Kollias and then say it's easy! lol

[MOONCHILD]

Make the job easy? maybe if you are playing really slow stuff, watch a video of George Kollias and then say it's easy! lol
well when you talk about doubles all you can think is speed and someones condition,what about music and tehnique.What about combinations and contras between bas and fus(im not sure is this a right word in english-left foot).Melody is important.

[Metaldrummer]

JASON COSTA's double bass playing is awesome he's playing in the band DIECAST and he's one of the fastest double-bass player i know. Listen to the tracks "Sacrifice" and "Rebirth" from the album TEARING DOWN YOUR BLUE SKIES.
Visit Diecast's site www.bhcdiecast.com
And TRAVIS SMITH from TRIVIUM is very fast, HEIKKI MALMBERG from DIABLO and of course THOMAS LANG.

[ThomasDee]

Tim Waterson has got to get a mention. In the metal ranks theres also Dave Mclean from Machine Head and Van Williams from Nevermore who never seems that fast till their Enemies Of Reality album.
I agree, you can't talk about Fastest Double Bass or Fastest double pedals without mentioning Tim Waterson. Another WFD guy to look out for is Tim Yeung. His technique is so cxool to watch. I think it's called swivel (?) whre he is moving left and right with both feet, side to side like on the pedals. I'm editing some stuff on him in the next week or so and it so visually cool to see him pull this off.

TD

[weezybaby]

virgil donati of course

[MayleneSDisaster]

Jordan Mancorli or whatever his name is of As I Lay Dying. He is insane!!!!!! Especially on the song 94 Hours
http://purevolume.com/asilaydying

[Lingenfelter Twin Turbo]

Jo Jo mayer and John Bonham, ooo wait they didnt and dont need one.

That aside, i dont think that the double bass should be used to up for the drummers lack of hand speed. Not all drummers are like this, but a lot are.

But the person who uses the double bass as it should be, the best would have to be Dennis Chambers.

I agree. All of this "who is the fastest crap" is terrible. Buddy Rich could play faster with one foot than most of these guys play with two. Being the fastest drummer is meaningless!

[ThomasDee]

I agree. All of this "who is the fastest crap" is terrible. Buddy Rich could play faster with one foot than most of these guys play with two. Being the fastest drummer is meaningless!
HAHA! "Being the fastest drummer is meaningless!" lol.......

Unless of course you are at WFD!

TD

[KLittle123]

Did an admin delete my post on here I take it?

[Cap'n Sith Park]

Since Speedy, who started this thread uses a pic of good Ol' Lars

I thought I'd mention 'Dyer's Eve' (...And Justice for All) is probably the fastest his feet were ever travelling

That's if it's not a drum machine, loop or a Bit O' creative editing

[lordmarco]

This kid I have no clue who he is but someone from Harmony Central posted this kid he knows playing and this kid is fast with sticks and bass plus he has control. He's a pretty good drummer.

Clickety (http://www.vornagar.com/hyperionvid.wmv)

that's me. thanks stevis.

[Tim Waterson]

I just spoke to a drummer named Mike MAchine another canadian who has Smokin fast feet as well and Marco says he is running over 1000 so the WFD should be interesting this year we'll see what happens.
Tim

[Mike Machine]

WOW!! thanks so much for the shout out Tim!!

Anyone interested in me and my work.. goto www.mikemachine.blogspot.com which is a great spot until i get www.mikemachine.ca launched and ready for action!!

Stay Crazy!!

\m/ Mike \m/

[mattsmith]

Hey everybody. I'm gonna post this on the latest WFD thread and the double bass thread. It's the same stuff, but IMO it applies to both threads.

I'm just wondering why the double bass virtuosos of metal don't just take the drumometer test and get it over with. I think there is something kind of fishy here when Tim Waterson goes out on the limb and proves his point with a machine that measures all this exactly, while some of these guys seem to take a different road by letting their fans go out and brag for them instead.

If one guy is supposedly faster post a drumometer vid, then actually attend the contests like everybody else.

If I have learned anything watchin' musicians all my life its how they handle their public images. For instance, some of these guys have people who are kind of like publicity people pass around rumors to get somethin' started.

Now alot of metal guys for instance have strong and good fans but they don't have super gigantic audiences. So alot of these guys aren't rich or anything, so they get some close friends, or a girlfriend or some loyal fans to get things started. Then the guy just says "oh I don't have time to be thinkin' about such things." When this happens alot, its usually them who are feedin' the frenzy. Then when you have a group of fans who are really loyal, its very easy to keep talk like this going.

This isn't just about metal either. They do this in jazz too. It's just the way business is in music that is not at the very top of popularity.

Now, despite what people want to say about how speed isn't important, measurable fast speeds and such are very important in metal. So don't think these big guys don't think about it. After all it really is a big part of what they do.

Not long ago, I was lurking on the Virgil Donati site and saw some guy asked if this known metal drummer ever tried a drumometer since he's one of those guys whose fans insist is the fastest metal drummer. Now this drummer hangs out at that site alot and many of those guys hang on his every word and that's cool. Well, one day he talks about how when he was in top shape he could get 1080 with hands on a drumometer, then said "but WFD and speed times really aren't important to me." I thought this was kinda strange. After all, if its no big deal, why did he quote a drumometer score in the first place?

Well then over several more posts he makes these issues about how music isn't a contest and his fan base from the site supported that. Then I notice a new guy from Detroit chime in and assume that those speed runs probably are important to him since he had mentioned exactly how fast he was before. Then the famous drummer goes off on this guy screaming how WFD wasn't important and how he didn't think in those terms. This was followed by the obvious fan backup.

In other words, speed is not important to me in my metal music, but just in case you want to know here's my speed. Hmmmmm. That came off like code to his fans to please spread this rumor even if I don't officially support it.This kind of stuff is less than honest to me.

Metal guys do care about their speeds and exact speed numbers make them more important in the eyes of their fans which helps them sell stuff, mostly themselves and their bands. There is nothing wrong with being this way.

I just feel that some of these guys should just step in front of their fans for a change and settle the issues once and for all in a measurable way like Tim Yeung did. But you know I don't think this will happen in most cases, since its easier to keep this mystery going and nobody gets hurt except for guys like Tim Waterson who actually stick their neck out.

So until that happens, how can anybody say that the fastest double bass drummer isn't Tim Waterson? He has an actual score and until the rest of these metal guys acheive a score as well, its all just alot of talk. Isn't this the right thing to do?

I have always thought that WFD is often disrespected more by those who are afraid of it and not those who are digusted by it. How many times have we seen on this site a guy say he plays ten million beats a minute, then gets on a drumometer, and instead turns out closer to average.

Is this discussion important within the bigger world of all music? No, of course not. But again, it is a big deal in some outside cases. I mean you go to some of these threads and its like the major topic. So why the mystery? Hey guys, Tim's just standing there and I have never seen him discorage anyone from going after his records a single time.

So why isn't there a line forming? No offense to the heroes of metal, but I wouldn't want to face him either.

[D3AN TH3 DRUMM3R BOY]

i think the fastest double bass player is chad smith

[Symbolic]

Ah the arrogance in this thread. But anyway mattsmith makes a great post, the guy he is talking about (if I get the right impression) is Derek Roddy, he is blazingly fast but is more concerned about using drums to add to a song than just playing fast.

[mattsmith]

Ah the arrogance in this thread. But anyway mattsmith makes a great post, the guy he is talking about (if I get the right impression) is Derek Roddy, he is blazingly fast but is more concerned about using drums to add to a song than just playing fast.
It was not my intent at all to be arrogant in case its me your talkin about, but I don't think you are. I'm just wondering out loud. And I'm sure this drummer I'm talkin' about is more concerned with his music. He certainly has some major skills. But again, why make the drumometer statement in the first place, then flame WFD while you wink as your fans just pass the story along?

He knows that when he says something like this, its gonna show up in a hundred different posts around the Internet. So you go to this other site and some guy is saying "hey man this drummer could win WFD anytime he wants to, did you hear that once scored 1080 on a drumometer, so I know he's the fastest."

For most of history it was easy to keep this who's the fastest stuff going forever. Now you can find out for real. So why not find out? Again and again you see people on these threads claim I can do this or that because when I work with my metronome such and such happens. And again we try to nicely say that when you work at very fast speeds you can fool yourself even with a metronome. And unfortunately you always fool yourself on the low side.

When metal virtuosos whose skills I respect keep comin up with other reasons, you start thinking about the more obvious ones. I think thats a fair thought to have.

[ThomasDee]

Believe me, IF someone is 'TRUELY' blazingly fast they are not going to turn down a WFD World Record Title, 1000's of dollars in prizes, the championship belt and the international exposure/publicity that goes along with winning the WFD World Finals or setting WFD World Records. No Way!

No One if they are 'TRUELY' blazingly fast. Why would they, just ask Tim Yeung. See http://www.axispercussion.com/NAMM_06_WFD.html

Who wouldn't want to do what Tim Waterson and Tim Yeung have done, to be endorsed by Axis pedals and their face plastered all over ever site in the world that deals with 'speed drumming' only by simply stepping up to the plate and proving what he's got!

Seems like a 'no-brainer' unless one is not 'TRUELY' blazingly fast. Then I can see why it is much easier to simply talk about what you could do. Talk is cheap. A WFD World Title is not!

TD

[ThomasDee]

I just spoke to a drummer named Mike MAchine another canadian who has Smokin fast feet as well and Marco says he is running over 1000 so the WFD should be interesting this year we'll see what happens.
Tim
Tim, Marco as in Marco Minneman?

TD

[ThomasDee]

Ah the arrogance in this thread. But anyway mattsmith makes a great post, the guy he is talking about (if I get the right impression) is Derek Roddy, he is blazingly fast but is more concerned about using drums to add to a song than just playing fast.
Guess what? I hate to bust anybody's bubble here, but I happen to work off and on for WFD in their video department. There's a huge stack of videos from back when WFD used to accept videos as World Records. Dating back to Tim Waterson in the year 2000. And guess what? Derek Roddy has submitted videos of his record attempts to WFD. Is Derek saying he has not submitted videos as a WFD attempt? Why would he submit a 'flat out fastest run' video to be approved for the world record by WFD if he was not interested what so ever in being the WFD? Puzzling………………

Maybe we are not talking about the same Derek Roddy. Are we?

TD

[Tim Waterson]

Tim, Marco as in Marco Minneman?

TD
thomas
The marco is the guy with the Lordmarco monicker.
Tim

[ThomasDee]

thomas
The marco is the guy with the Lordmarco monicker.
Tim
Tim, thank you, now I get it. While logging some old WFD videos I ran into some of your older stuff you had sent them back in the day. Cool Stuff! There's a couple of post on here about some site where Derek Roddy is making statements about no interest in WFD. I'm not sure yet where they are, but I was wondering if you knew if this is the same Derek Roddy that sent in his double bass record attempt to be viewed as a WFD Record back in 2000-2001?

TD

[Tama_Man]

Derek Roddy uses heel-toe

[Symbolic]

It was not my intent at all to be arrogant in case its me your talkin about, but I don't think you are. I'm just wondering out loud. And I'm sure this drummer I'm talkin' about is more concerned with his music. He certainly has some major skills. But again, why make the drumometer statement in the first place, then flame WFD while you wink as your fans just pass the story along?

He knows that when he says something like this, its gonna show up in a hundred different posts around the Internet. So you go to this other site and some guy is saying "hey man this drummer could win WFD anytime he wants to, did you hear that once scored 1080 on a drumometer, so I know he's the fastest."

For most of history it was easy to keep this who's the fastest stuff going forever. Now you can find out for real. So why not find out? Again and again you see people on these threads claim I can do this or that because when I work with my metronome such and such happens. And again we try to nicely say that when you work at very fast speeds you can fool yourself even with a metronome. And unfortunately you always fool yourself on the low side.

When metal virtuosos whose skills I respect keep comin up with other reasons, you start thinking about the more obvious ones. I think thats a fair thought to have.

Sorry if it came off as I was calling you arrogant Matt, I wasnt. It was more of some of the other posts in here.

[Symbolic]

Derek Roddy uses heel-toe

No, he uses flatfoot. Tim Waterson plays heel-toe.

[Symbolic]

Guess what? I hate to bust anybody's bubble here, but I happen to work off and on for WFD in their video department. There's a huge stack of videos from back when WFD used to accept videos as World Records. Dating back to Tim Waterson in the year 2000. And guess what? Derek Roddy has submitted videos of his record attempts to WFD. Is Derek saying he has not submitted videos as a WFD attempt? Why would he submit a 'flat out fastest run' video to be approved for the world record by WFD if he was not interested what so ever in being the WFD? Puzzling………………

Maybe we are not talking about the same Derek Roddy. Are we?

TD

There is only one Derek Roddy that I know of. My post was in reference to MattSmith's post of how Derek has been posting on both his forums and Virgil's forums about how he and other people should not be focused on speed but on using drums to add to a song. That doesnt mean that speed is bad, it is just another tool in the box. However, when speed is the only component in a drummers ability then it is bad.

I dont see what is wrong when someone who has the ability to play fast tells others that speed isnt the only thing that matters about drums. Please inform me if think otherwise.

[lordmarco]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=735fKZSMR5U&eurl=

[NUTHA JASON]

phwoar!


.

[AvengedDrummer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=735fKZSMR5U&eurl=
i am totally speechless.....wow.......

[mattsmith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=735fKZSMR5U&eurl=
Now this to me is a more upfront thing to do. Marco you are indeed fast, and I think this should be obvious to all. Now that guys know you have these skills you have to go to a contest to make it official and as I can tell you first hand from my own world finals screwup, after havin' good success earlier, you must do it in public.

Just so you know, from what my dad and I found out sometimes, the bass drum sensor will double count until you haven't seriously padded the bass drum and tested it with your drumometer several times. After alot of experimenting, my teacher Jim Coviak of Mott College cut out a six inch piece of foam to fit snugly inside the bass drum. After this we had an honest counter. Craig and Boo even tell you to do this before you go for official counts. I'm not sayin' this happened, but the chance exists if your drum is not insulated right. Tim I know is more on top of this side of WFD than i will ever be. But I think I'm right here.

You also have to use Axis pedals so everybody's on the same playing field.

Also nothin' is official until you have a referee. You have also probably heard that Tim Waterson has anilhilated his official times at home and times usually go way down when the contestant knows its all official. But IMO, none of this should discourage you. You are obviously alot more than talk and this is very impressive. Thanks for showin' this.

[Class A Drummer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=735fKZSMR5U&eurl=
Ur fast. how far from the record are you?

[ThomasDee]

Now this to me is a more upfront thing to do. Marco you are indeed fast, and I think this should be obvious to all. Now that guys know you have these skills you have to go to a contest to make it official and as I can tell you first hand from my own world finals screwup, after havin' good success earlier, you must do it in public.

Just so you know, from what my dad and I found out sometimes, the bass drum sensor will double count until you haven't seriously padded the bass drum and tested it with your drumometer several times. After alot of experimenting, my teacher Jim Coviak of Mott College cut out a six inch piece of foam to fit snugly inside the bass drum. After this we had an honest counter. Craig and Boo even tell you to do this before you go for official counts. I'm not sayin' this happened, but the chance exists if your drum is not insulated right. Tim I know is more on top of this side of WFD than i will ever be. But I think I'm right here.

You also have to use Axis pedals so everybody's on the same playing field.

Also nothin' is official until you have a referee. You have also probably heard that Tim Waterson has anilhilated his official times at home and times usually go way down when the contestant knows its all official. But IMO, none of this should discourage you. You are obviously alot more than talk and this is very impressive. Thanks for showin' this.
Very good post, yes by all means make sure there are no overtones double triggering your kick drum. Run some test like real solid 5's or 4's. Like do 5 sets of 4's and see if drumometer goes to 20 etc...Sounds like you have a real decent run going. Just keep in mind a 1000 in you bedroom doesn't always equate to 1000 at WFD. OK?

Do some accuracy test just to check yourself. Remember if you are at 1000 playing 1/16th notes, just set the drumometer's (model II) metronome to 250 and nail the click. If it is dead on 1000 at the end of 60 seconds all is well. If it is 1160 then there's a problem.

All in all a very decent run, just check your triggering as Matt said to be sure.

TD

[mattsmith]

Tim, thank you, now I get it. While logging some old WFD videos I ran into some of your older stuff you had sent them back in the day. Cool Stuff! There's a couple of post on here about some site where Derek Roddy is making statements about no interest in WFD. I'm not sure yet where they are, but I was wondering if you knew if this is the same Derek Roddy that sent in his double bass record attempt to be viewed as a WFD Record back in 2000-2001?

TD
Well knowing that Derek Roddy scopes many drum forums, maybe he wouldn't mind so much coming to this thread and just politely answering our very polite question. I mean after all nobody's tryin' to flame here. Right now we are only showing some concern no more, no less.

Here's the question: Have you Derek Roddy submitted fastest double pedal videos to WFD for world record approval?

Seems like a fair enough question.

[ThomasDee]

There is only one Derek Roddy that I know of. My post was in reference to MattSmith's post of how Derek has been posting on both his forums and Virgil's forums about how he and other people should not be focused on speed but on using drums to add to a song. That doesnt mean that speed is bad, it is just another tool in the box. However, when speed is the only component in a drummers ability then it is bad.

I dont see what is wrong when someone who has the ability to play fast tells others that speed isnt the only thing that matters about drums. Please inform me if think otherwise.
Symbolic, I never said "speed is the only thing that matters about drums" Ok? In fact out of all the '10's of 1000's' of WFD threads I have strained to read, no one has ever said "speed is the only thing that matters about drums" EXCEPT the detractors of WFD.

No where in the history of WFD has anyone from the WFD ever said this or proclaimed the WFD should be in any way remotely conceived as a MUSICAL ART FORM!

All I was asking is this the same Derek Roddy that submitted his videos as a WFD World Record contestant? That's all!

If as you say there is only one Derek Roddy, then I guess he is interested in being the WFD. That's all I was saying. Sorry for any confusion about the whole "speed is the only thing that matters about drums"

I just wanted to know if it was the same Derek Roddy.

TD

[ThomasDee]

I just found this video here on DW if you want to see what WFD Battle of the Feet is really about check out Tim Yeung's winning run at http://youtube.com/watch?v=sMOj9tHdhhY&search=Tim%20Yeung

It's a pretty big file so let it take it's time on first download, but this says it all. What great foot work. Tim is a true WFD Champion.

Much Respect!

TD

[lordmarco]

THOMAS DEE and MATTSMITH, yes i have competited OFFICIALLY in WFD, when i was 15 years old. i did 811 for feet: http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/tour/warp/daily/dates/18/feet.html and 813 for hands: http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/tour/warp/daily/dates/18/hands.html
i am well aware 1000+ in my bedroom does not mean 1000 @ WFD....i have used my Drumometer on a few different types on DRUMS and pads. I still get same results. i believe the next WFD that i can do is in California @ NAMM 2007, if there are any sooner ones i'd like to know. anyways thanks for the feedback guys i appreciate it. ..

[DogBreath]

I've decided that at NAMM 2007, I'm setting up camp at the WFD booth. I only stopped by a few times this year and I missed way too much. It was great meeting Tim Y., Tim W., Craig, and Boo, but more pics, videos, and reports next year. Plus everyone will know where to find me. Lord Marco, I've been a fan since you fist posted here last Summer. Great to have you posting again.

[mattsmith]

THOMAS DEE and MATTSMITH, yes i have competited OFFICIALLY in WFD, when i was 15 years old. i did 811 for feet: http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/tour/warp/daily/dates/18/feet.html and 813 for hands: http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/tour/warp/daily/dates/18/hands.html
i am well aware 1000+ in my bedroom does not mean 1000 @ WFD....i have used my Drumometer on a few different types on DRUMS and pads. I still get same results. i believe the next WFD that i can do is in California @ NAMM 2007, if there are any sooner ones i'd like to know. anyways thanks for the feedback guys i appreciate it. ..
Yowww...sorry I didn't know Marco. 811 for feet at 15 is incredible. I'm glad I'm not a big feet guy. I wouldn't want to see you coming around the corner. But you know it's still probly good for people to know about all the stuff that is done to make these contests work. I am always shocked by all the ones who think the rules are made up as you go along.

And you know, what your doing here is so much more upfront than one or two bigger names who I still think want to hide behind their fans so rumors can keep flying. I agree with all thats being said here. Of course its not ALL about bein' the fastest. The music comes first. But these same one or two shouldn't be saying WFD means nothing while tapes are sent to WFD by the same people. Does this make sense? When you do this then the emporer wears no clothes.

[mattsmith]

Well, I just found out that Derek Roddy was privately contacted and he has responded to this person about the stuff we are talking about. I hear there is still some back and forth going on. So hopefully we will know his take on what has been talked about very soon.

[Tim Waterson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=735fKZSMR5U&eurl=
Hey Marco Nice try....and no offence but but I can see the drumometer is miss triggering .

This is WHY the WFD does NOT accept videos anymore just to test your video against this one mine is only a speed of about 1040 in this clip if your was 1160 you would a lot faster than this clip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEwLs8OWyAc
Keep blastin
Tim

[mattsmith]

At our house, we took Marco's run and slowed it down, and counted the first 200 beats. It was already something like 45 off already.

Now, after the bass drum padding is done, the drumometer will work fine. The rumor that goes around sayin that drumometers never work are just deceptions spread around by some drummers who never want anything that can actually measure them. IMO if you run around calling yourself a speedy guy, and you actually aren't as fast as people think, then you got no credibility.

There is currently a famous metal drummer out there who plays this game about putting down the drumometer all the time, when he knows it works just fine. I have learned an amazing amount about this guy the last couple of days. But thats probably best discussed on another place like the WFD thread.

IMO, Marco is a real competitor. I just think he is hitting around 900 instead, which is still great.

[Sawdust]

hi there

in my opinion georg kollias (nile), dereck roddy (hate eternal) and conny peterson (anata) are some of the fastest double bass players.

[Tim Waterson]

At our house, we took Marco's run and slowed it down, and counted the first 200 beats. It was already something like 45 off already.

Now, after the bass drum padding is done, the drumometer will work fine. The rumor that goes around sayin that drumometers never work are just deceptions spread around by some drummers who never want anything that can actually measure them. IMO if you run around calling yourself a speedy guy, and you actually aren't as fast as people think, then you got no credibility.

There is currently a famous metal drummer out there who plays this game about putting down the drumometer all the time, when he knows it works just fine. I have learned an amazing amount about this guy the last couple of days. But thats probably best discussed on another place like the WFD thread.

IMO, Marco is a real competitor. I just think he is hitting around 900 instead, which is still great.

Tigerbill clocked it at about 840+
It is great to see more and more extreme drummers comming out to try the drumometer unfortunately someone needs to teach them how to set it up and test for accuracy before making a new record claim.
Marco and Mike the machine should be competing next year in LA it sounds like a double bassathon LOL
\Good Luck to ALL the competitors
As for Derek yes he did try the drumometer unfortunately he hooked it up wrong and got a rediculous score just like Marco
I spoke to him on the phone and he was going to do it again but now he does not care about SPEED anymore.LOL
fastest Extreme double bass players out there include George Kollias,Orifist,Derek,Tony and a few others.
Tim

[mattsmith]

As for Derek yes he did try the drumometer unfortunately he hooked it up wrong and got a rediculous score just like Marco.
I spoke to him on the phone and he was going to do it again but now he does not care about SPEED anymore.LOL
Tim
I received several copies of messages from my guy in Detroit of letters that Roddy wrote him all through the Easter weekend, that came from my original concerns on this thread.
I was debating whether to share them. But now I'm startin' to feel like I should let it go.
Points were made. Lessons were learned. Now probably time to move on.

[ThomasDee]

Tigerbill clocked it at about 840+
It is great to see more and more extreme drummers comming out to try the drumometer unfortunately someone needs to teach them how to set it up and test for accuracy before making a new record claim.
Marco and Mike the machine should be competing next year in LA it sounds like a double bassathon LOL
\Good Luck to ALL the competitors
As for Derek yes he did try the drumometer unfortunately he hooked it up wrong and got a rediculous score just like Marco
I spoke to him on the phone and he was going to do it again but now he does not care about SPEED anymore.LOL
fastest Extreme double bass players out there include George Kollias,Orifist,Derek,Tony and a few others.
Tim
Tim, great post. You are truly the WFD diplomat. Yes Derek did submit videos to WFD as a new World Record. Did he know how to set up triggers or make the Drumometer spike and cause false triggering in order to beat your record under false pretenses? No one really knows except Boo. I ask Boo about this tonight and his only comment was "We had tons and tons of those kinds of tapes back then and guys were trying everything to break WFD records, one guy even sent in a video with the camera shot of only his hands, but he had put two palm vibrators which were out of the shot, on his fore arms that caused the sticks to vibrate and therefore causing a buzz effect even though it looked like singles. It took me and Johnny Rabb hours to figure out what was going on. The dead give away was in the audio, we kept hearing this buzzzzzzzzzzz sound and called the kid on it and he ‘fessed up."

Maybe Derek simply doesn't know that much about triggering. One thing for sure is the Drumometer when hooked up properly does not lie. There are many more tapes with unhappy drummers other than Derek. So I would simply see it for what it is and if Derek wants to actually do it right all he has to do is come to WFD as Tim Yeung did.

There is really no mystical hook up, smoke and mirrors to the WFD as Derek seems to want folks to believe. To prove it I asked Boo is Derek welcomed at WFD? His reply "sure as everyone is, why not?."

Pretty much settles that.

TD

[ThomasDee]

'but now he does not care about SPEED anymore".LOL

Now that maybe the funniest thing ever written on any forum or message board. LOL

Truly Amazing!

TD

[low-tech]

"Maybe Derek simply doesn't know that much about triggering"

i think this guy regularly triggers his kicks for recording and live shows. that nile record he definately was using triggers. remember that triggers are a mainstay to playing metal and most drummer in the genre have been triggering the kickdrum for some time now, so i think he may know about triggers and how they are setup and so forth. im not entire sure if he does tho, but it seems most likely

however i dont doubt that the drumometer can be set up in a way that can have misleading results, even if you have people who are familiar with triggers,e-kits and so forth recording themselves. home video are good as demo but not conclusive.

i just think more and more of the competion for the doublekick records are gonna come from the extreme metal crowd of musicians in years to come. the requisite of playing this genre of music demands drummers to play songs at speeds close to the records that have been set before.

[Tim Waterson]

Tim, great post. You are truly the WFD diplomat. Yes Derek did submit videos to WFD as a new World Record. Did he know how to set up triggers or make the Drumometer spike and cause false triggering in order to beat your record under false pretenses? No one really knows except Boo. I ask Boo about this tonight and his only comment was "We had tons and tons of those kinds of tapes back then and guys were trying everything to break WFD records, one guy even sent in a video with the camera shot of only his hands, but he had put two palm vibrators which were out of the shot, on his fore arms that caused the sticks to vibrate and therefore causing a buzz effect even though it looked like singles. It took me and Johnny Rabb hours to figure out what was going on. The dead give away was in the audio, we kept hearing this buzzzzzzzzzzz sound and called the kid on it and he ‘fessed up."

Maybe Derek simply doesn't know that much about triggering. One thing for sure is the Drumometer when hooked up properly does not lie. There are many more tapes with unhappy drummers other than Derek. So I would simply see it for what it is and if Derek wants to actually do it right all he has to do is come to WFD as Tim Yeung did.

There is really no mystical hook up, smoke and mirrors to the WFD as Derek seems to want folks to believe. To prove it I asked Boo is Derek welcomed at WFD? His reply "sure as everyone is, why not?."

Pretty much settles that.

TD
I would say DEREK is somewhat of a genious when it comes to triggers!
i spoke to him on the phone so he knows what he is doing.he wanted to prove the drumometer could be fooled and believed that if it was not working for him why would it be working for me.LOL

I told him that Boo and Craig and I did numerous 10-60 second runs at NAMM at the Axis booth with a metrenome and the drumometer working one foot at a time with CRAIG gettting closeups of the drumometer .The WFD was watching my feet like a hwk to make sure i was not geting extra bounces.LOL
One of the reason the vdl is set all the way forward for WFD is that for drummers that stomp or push into the head with the vdl set back you can get a buzz.
This year when i ran 956 in warm upd Boo made me do it again to make sure it was not false triggering.LOL
Hope this helps
Tim

[ThomasDee]

I would say DEREK is somewhat of a genious when it comes to triggers!
i spoke to him on the phone so he knows what he is doing.he wanted to prove the drumometer could be fooled and believed that if it was not working for him why would it be working for me.LOL

I told him that Boo and Craig and I did numerous 10-60 second runs at NAMM at the Axis booth with a metrenome and the drumometer working one foot at a time with CRAIG gettting closeups of the drumometer .The WFD was watching my feet like a hwk to make sure i was not geting extra bounces.LOL
One of the reason the vdl is set all the way forward for WFD is that for drummers that stomp or push into the head with the vdl set back you can get a buzz.
This year when i ran 956 in warm upd Boo made me do it again to make sure it was not false triggering.LOL
Hope this helps
Tim
HAHA! Tim great post as always. "I would say DEREK is somewhat of a genious (sic) when it comes to triggers!"? "he wanted to prove the drumometer could be fooled"? PROBABLY!

You know these guys maybe even better than I do, as Boo always says, "Hey Hoss, this is not my first Rodeo!" If you bring Boo crap he's the first to not only call it crap BUT then YOU the crapper. It's simple, believe me I have been there and it is not an ego inflated/romantic place to be. I have turned in crap. HAHA!

If as you say Derek knew he was doing something to fool these guys, then he should have packed a much larger lunch. If he wants to somehow ‘save face’ and do it correctly as you, Tim Yeung and many other great WFD Champs have then he needs to simply have as much backbone as he does MOUTH. You have to at least show up at the ball park in order to be a player.

“It is much easier to shoot the king than to be the king” -Boo McAfee

TD

PS I apologize for the original language, after so much of this crap I just got a little T'ed. Sorry. The feeling is still there, just less harsh words. Sorry!

TD

[Tim Waterson]

For those of you are unfamilar with ROMAINE THE MIGHTY ORIFIST
One of the fastest drummers hands and feet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8OK1KQ8XaA
Not MY favrite music but his drrumming is TIGHT
Enjoy
Tim

[ThomasDee]

For those of you are unfamilar with ROMAINE THE MIGHTY ORIFIST
One of the fastest drummers hands and feet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8OK1KQ8XaA
Not MY favrite music but his drrumming is TIGHT
Enjoy
Tim
"ROMAINE THE MIGHTY ORIFIST" Tim thanks, This dude is awesome! Definitely a contender for WFD. Do you know if he's going to compete any time soon?

Man, I got so mad at all this anti WFD 'stuff' last night. I don't know why, I guess because it has been going on for so many years. I usually can hold it together, but just finally came unglued. Not good to let something get to ya that much. Feeling better now after watching that clip. thanks!

TD

[mattsmith]

Man, I got so mad at all this anti WFD 'stuff' last night. I don't know why, I guess because it has been going on for so many years. I usually can hold it together, but just finally came unglued. Not good to let something get to ya that much. Feeling better now after watching that clip. thanks!
TD
I have been sick of it. I mean I can understand a guy like Ozjazzer for instance, who I think means well but doesn't really understand that WFD is not tryin' to destroy the world. But stuff like what Roddy tries to pull. His game is to keep his house of cards standing up at all costs, while he hypnotizes a bunch of guys into believein' something that isn't true.

A guy like that is definately running around tryin' to get people to believe he is the phenom of fast. But he encourages others to do it for him. Then he goes around saying "Oh I'm only in this for my art. Speed doesn't matter to me." Give me a break.

He will never go to a WFD because he fears how it might turn out. But then he has his safety net by sayin' drumometers don't work if he gets beat. Irony is he could probably win the feet competition doin' things the right way. Hands? no way can he win. And I'm not talkin' about the record, I'm talkin' about the actual walk on contest.

Too bad it's come down to this.

I agree with all his fans. He's a really good metal drummer. But he got busted on this, plain and simple.

[ad9898]

This thread was started by asking this "fastest double bass player is? On which song? cd?", so why has it been hijacked by WFD supporters ?, i think their is another thread elsewhere on that subject.

Let me say one thing, i have a lot of respect for the physical prowess of these guys but in my opinion it doesn't have anything to do with music, bashing very talented guys like Derek is a joke, this guy as well as many others sits down and writes and composes extremely good drum parts for the music they play

Now i haven't heard one piece of music with a 60 second rolling double bass or single stroke hand roll, if i've missed it please can someone tell me on what cd i can hear this. Take Mike Mangini's "hands record", an excellent physical effort their is no doubt, but can this be put into any kind of musical situation???, i dont think so it sounds like a 1000 ants with microphones on there feet, no power or feel, in a real world situation, totally useless.

So lets try and answer the guys original question, that Orifist video was extremely impressive as is Georges "feet video", both of which are set in a musical composition, so these guys get my vote.

[mattsmith]

This thread was started by asking this "fastest double bass player is? On which song? cd?", so why has it been hijacked by WFD supporters ?, i think their is another thread elsewhere on that subject.

Let me say one thing, i have a lot of respect for the physical prowess of these guys but in my opinion it doesn't have anything to do with music, bashing very talented guys like Derek is a joke, this guy as well as many others sits down and writes and composes extremely good drum parts for the music they play

Now i haven't heard one piece of music with a 60 second rolling double bass or single stroke hand roll, if i've missed it please can someone tell me on what cd i can hear this. Take Mike Mangini's "hands record", an excellent physical effort their is no doubt, but can this be put into any kind of musical situation???, i dont think so it sounds like a 1000 ants with microphones on there feet, no power or feel, in a real world situation, totally useless.

So lets try and answer the guys original question, that Orifist video was extremely impressive as is Georges "feet video", both of which are set in a musical composition, so these guys get my vote.
FYI, The name of the thread is Fastest Double Bass Player. How do you avoid not speaking of the governing body that actual makes that designation, based on a competition? Hijacked by WFD supporters? One of the hijackers you describe is the world record holder for fastest double bass speed. Did I miss something?

The first post reads as follows:
If you had to pick one drummer, who would you say the fastest double bass player is? On which song? cd?

This question has three parts, that can easily be judged seprate of the others.

BTW, the first post that got this conversation started was also copied for the WFD thread. It just happened to connect here first.

Look man, I am not even going to begin to get into it with you regarding the same ridiculous "put it in a musical situation" garbage. Everytime a new person arrives at a forum, it's assumed we are supposed to go through this all over again as if five years of discussions never happened. Well, this time it aint gonna happen. I stand by all of this, especially Roddy. He writes drum parts? Have we lowered the bar so much now that we give awards for that? Besides, no one is bashing Roddy for his musicianship. Again actually read the posts.

Also, I welcome any and all WFD slammers who would like to engage in discussion of musicianship issues.

In the spirit of all that, let's deal with the music question you ask:

Now i haven't heard one piece of music with a 60 second rolling double bass or single stroke hand roll, if i've missed it please can someone tell me on what cd i can hear this. Take Mike Mangini's "hands record", an excellent physical effort their is no doubt, but can this be put into any kind of musical situation???, i dont think so it sounds like a 1000 ants with microphones on there feet, no power or feel, in a real world situation, totally useless.


You know, I was going to let your question go. But know what? I'm gonna play along.

BTW, I apologize for getting a little off the thread, but the question was asked.

Hmmmm....Let's examine this, because it's fair. I just spent the last hour talkin' to a university drum professor about this and he played alot of examples for me, including one that I had already played. Now some of these things are either close to a minute or more and often started out as double stroke rolls, or had to be played by more than one person to keep the roll going. Now the choice is single strokes alot of the time because of the different sound it produces. Many of these parts have been added or extended to original scores because drummers of today are capable of the endurance.

Very extended rolls, either snare, tympani, bass drum or cymbal.

1. Bydlo, from Pictures at an Exhibition by Mussorgsky

2. Haydn's "Drum Roll" and "Military" symphonies.

3. The very famous part in the last movement of the Symphony #9 of Beethoven. Not
quite a minute but long enough.

4. Act II, Siegfried by Wagner

5. The steady cymbals mounted on the top of a bass drum in the opera Pagliacci.

6. Symphony Fantastique, Berlioz

Hold up a minute. I just thought of something. You might not have been thinking about this kind of music right? Like you said, you must have missed it, just like I missed how this question was supposed to be only about metal.

Any more questions?

[ad9898]

i have an opinion ok and i'll stick to it, just because i dont have a thousand posts behind my name doesn't mean that my opinions are suddenly worth less than if i did, I respect Tim Waterson's achievements and judging by his posts on here he's a very nice and knowledgble guy, and i'm sure so are all the other WFD guys, i am not knocking them ok, but my take on the thread starter was which guy is the fastest DB player and on which song of which cd, just out of curiosity i'm interested to who this is.

Tim, with you possessing a lot of knowledge on this subject do you know the answer.

Thanks

[mattsmith]

i have an opinion ok and i'll stick to it, just because i dont have a thousand posts behind my name doesn't mean that my opinions are suddenly worth less than if i did, I respect Tim Waterson's achievements and judging by his posts on here he's a very nice and knowledgble guy, and i'm sure so are all the other WFD guys, i am not knocking them ok, but my take on the thread starter was which guy is the fastest DB player and on which song of which cd, just out of curiosity i'm interested to who this is.

Tim, with you possessing a lot of knowledge on this subject do you know the answer.

Thanks
You know man, I didn't think your opinion was worthless. But you did think mine was or you wouldn't have taken the original tact you did. You came barreling in thinking this was some forum that makes a path for that when this is a pretty smart group. I just think that was an old argument, and as an active WFD participant who has been lucky enough to get to the upper end of it, I really cannot abide by it bein' implied that I don't know what I am talking about when it comes to drumset playing when I do just fine for my age. And talkin' over me to talk to Tim is part of that.

And man, I don't really think having 126 posts makes me a forum lifer. I actually spend most of my time on music.

I'm sorry I went a little overboard there, but I have been getting really sick of this WFD bashing when every drummer I know in it is top of the line and smart. Your letter here proves your a good guy. We can learn to disagree and keep it peaceful.

[Jeff Almeyda]

No one can get far in WFD without being serious about the drums. Whether they are "musical" or not has nothing to do with WFD and everything to do with them as musicians.

I used to diss the WFD too but I've changed my tune. I tried the drumometer the other day and I came in at 743. I have a new respect for these guys. I'm fast but Jeez. I'm determined to crack 800 now. I figure if you can play for 1 minute at 200 BPM you should be able to play 10-20% faster for shorter (as in a song) bursts.

Tim Waterson is the fastest until someone beats his competion numbers.

[finnhiggins]

I have to say, this whole thread leaves a bitter taste in my mouth and IMHO is a part of what is wrong with WFD. Oh no, here we go again, you all cry. But indulge me. Here's an analogy for my thoughts on WFD:

It's like a competition to see who has the most money.

I think the analogy is sound. Money, like speed, is something that can be put to many uses and can make your life considerably easier if you have it. Money, like speed, is something that takes focused effort to accumulate. And money, like speed, is something of which you either have enough or not for a particular scenario.

But back to this imaginary competition. OK, it might be entertaining. OK, it might encourage people to develop their wheeler-dealing tactics and skills. But on the other hand, I don't see why a competition is necessary to achieve either of these goals. And given that it focuses so much attention on money and money alone as merit in life I don't see that it would have a practical or positive social benefit.

I'm sure most of us here would agree that there are finer things in life than having a very large bank balance. I certainly don't - I have enough, and not a lot more. But on the other hand, I do have a lot of time free to focus on music or other things in life which interest me.

Now, that's not to say that by opposing the idea of a money-making competition I oppose the idea of being making money. Look at somebody like Mark Shuttleworth, who made himself enough cash from selling his company (Thawte) that he could afford to pay to go into space with the Russians. I'd love to do that! But the thing is, Shuttleworth had all that money because he focused on doing something technologically innovative and marketed it successfully. Not because he hung around get-rich-quick seminars and ripped off old ladies. He got rich by doing cool stuff, and after he got rich his motivation was not to get richer - after all, you can always get richer - but to keep doing cool stuff. Have a read up on the guy, he's extremely impressive.

An analogy from a musician's point of view would be somebody like Vinnie Colaiuta. He's fast, but that speed is just a function of the technique he has developed to play some really mind-bending, original ideas. Or somebody like John Coltrane or Charlie Parker - very fast for their time, and indeed inspiring to musicians to develop their speed. But that speed was not developed in isolation or for competitive purposes - it was developed hand-in-hand with a concept of music that required such speed.

You see my point? Speed as a property is universally good. Speed as a tool to achieve a goal is universally good. Speed AS a goal without any higher purpose is bad, because all it leads to is squabbling over who is faster than who, who isn't playing by the competition rules and blah blah blah.

Who honestly cares?

Seriously?

Do you care if Derek Roddy is faster than Tim Waterson? I don't think there's any reason to, even if you're Derek Roddy OR Tim Waterson. That is, unless you've got no goal which actually uses the speed you have, and the speed itself is your only goal. And I've not met many WFD supporters or participants who would assert that is a positive thing.

This whole thread rather depresses me, personally. It's sort of like the complete antithesis of everything I'm seeking as a player, particularly after reading Kenny Werner's book "Effortless Mastery". The whole idea of competing for technique and speed seems to be directly in line with all the things (attachment of self-worth to performance, pressure to be better than "the other guy") that Werner describes as being detrimental to musicians in growing and improving as artists, and his arguments are extremely sound in my eyes.

[Jeff Almeyda]

This whole thread rather depresses me, personally. It's sort of like the complete antithesis of everything I'm seeking as a player, particularly after reading Kenny Werner's book "Effortless Mastery". The whole idea of competing for technique and speed seems to be directly in line with all the things (attachment of self-worth to performance, pressure to be better than "the other guy") that Werner describes as being detrimental to musicians in growing and improving as artists, and his arguments are extremely sound in my eyes.

Well thought out post, my friend. That book should be required reading for all musicians.

What we have to remember is that WFD is actually an athletic and not a musical competition. That puts it in perspective for me. Even though I respect what these fast guys can do, I don't associate that with the actual emotional experience of music at all. If someone uses speed to great musical effect then I'm moved.

There's a big difference between being awe-struck at extreme physical prowess and being emotionally moved by a musical masterpiece. As long as you understand that, then you can take it for what it is.

[mattsmith]

I have to say, this whole thread leaves a bitter taste in my mouth and IMHO is a part of what is wrong with WFD. Oh no, here we go again, you all cry. But indulge me. Here's an analogy for my thoughts on WFD:

An analogy from a musician's point of view would be somebody like Vinnie Colaiuta. He's fast, but that speed is just a function of the technique he has developed to play some really mind-bending, original ideas. Or somebody like John Coltrane or Charlie Parker - very fast for their time, and indeed inspiring to musicians to develop their speed. But that speed was not developed in isolation or for competitive purposes - it was developed hand-in-hand with a concept of music that required such speed.

You see my point? Speed as a property is universally good. Speed as a tool to achieve a goal is universally good. Speed AS a goal without any higher purpose is bad, because all it leads to is squabbling over who is faster than who, who isn't playing by the competition rules and blah blah blah.

Who honestly cares?

Seriously?

Do you care if Derek Roddy is faster than Tim Waterson? I don't think there's any reason to, even if you're Derek Roddy OR Tim Waterson. That is, unless you've got no goal which actually uses the speed you have, and the speed itself is your only goal. And I've not met many WFD supporters or participants who would assert that is a positive thing.

This whole thread rather depresses me, personally. It's sort of like the complete antithesis of everything I'm seeking as a player, particularly after reading Kenny Werner's book "Effortless Mastery". The whole idea of competing for technique and speed seems to be directly in line with all the things (attachment of self-worth to performance, pressure to be better than "the other guy") that Werner describes as being detrimental to musicians in growing and improving as artists, and his arguments are extremely sound in my eyes.
Finn, from the higher side I can see your view. You know that I have other interests and my eye is on music. But I'm in development. I'm still workin' on my chops. But just so you know, if you had heard some of the stories of how Kenny Werner shorts the pay for musicians on his gigs, you might wonder about that book of his. Funny, in the three dimensions he seems alot like folks you don't want to hang with.

WFD is glorified practice you should be doing anyway and you get recognition for it. As I said in the jazz thread there is no Lionel Hampton band for people like me anymore. You try many different things to get out there now and this is one. I get an insane amount of pub for what I have done in that organization and I'm the one who blew the world championship. My playing is alot better because of my time in it. And I think Boo, Tim W., Art Verdi are great musicians.

Besides my life isn't wrapped in it. I work an average on this a half hour a day, tops.

But here is the part that I think requires honesty for some people. Even though at 16, I suck at mallets and my tympani playin' could use a ton of work, at my best times, I am about 30 strokes from breaking Mangini's traditional grip record. Right now Mangini gets more drum clinics than anybody and I know you understand why. Are you going to tell me that if you were that close, you wouldn't be looking at that bigger picture? I ask this about anybody who says this, you being one of the smartest. Look, in order to make the music you want there has be a place to live and food to eat.

I transfer this over to Tim Waterson, who has actually done the work to have his place.

Finn, no talented drummer sees WFD as an ends. But it sure as heck aint the second coming of Satan. It is what it is. And when people just slam it without providing the thought you just provided, then its usually for other reasons.

[finnhiggins]

Finn, from the higher side I can see your view. You know that I have other interests and my eye is on music. But I'm in development. I'm still workin' on my chops.


I almost wish I'd posted this over in the jazz thread now, because this almost seems directly in parallel with what we're arguing over with Stu there at the moment. I'd ask the same question I'm asking there: When are you done? When are you finished working on your chops? If the answer is never - which strikes me as the right one - then surely the sensible way to let your chops develop is to let your musical ideas motivate them, rather than a competition?


But just so you know, if you had heard some of the stories of how Kenny Werner shorts the pay for musicians on his gigs, you might wonder about that book of his. Funny, in the three dimensions he seems alot like folks you don't want to hang with.


Actually, from reading his book he seems a lot like folks I don't want to hang with. But he does describe a lot of things I have experienced in my life, and he attributes causes to them that I can see in myself and his logic seems sound. And by working with some of his suggestions I've found my practice time has improved vastly in terms of results and in terms of the meaning it gives me in life - which wasn't something I had considered it could contribute before.


WFD is glorified practice you should be doing anyway and you get recognition for it. As I said in the jazz thread there is no Lionel Hampton band for people like me anymore. You try many different things to get out there now and this is one. I get an insane amount of pub for what I have done in that organization and I'm the one who blew the world championship. My playing is alot better because of my time in it. And I think Boo, Tim W., Art Verdi are great musicians.

Besides my life isn't wrapped in it. I work an average on this a half hour a day, tops.

But here is the part that I think requires honesty for some people. Even though at 16, I suck at mallets and my tympani playin' could use a ton of work, at my best times, I am about 30 strokes from breaking Mangini's traditional grip record. Right now Mangini gets more drum clinics than anybody and I know you understand why. Are you going to tell me that if you were that close, you wouldn't be looking at that bigger picture? I ask this about anybody who says this, you being one of the smartest. Look, in order to make the music you want there has be a place to live and food to eat.


That's fair enough. I'd just like to clarify here, I do actually differentiate between the merits of things:

1) Being involved in WFD as a competitor.
2) The existence of WFD itself.

I can see good arguments for #1. Yes, it could offer motivation to practice. Yes, it could offer some great opportunities to learn from some very technically accomplished people at a fraction of the cost of what it would be to approach them the traditional route. Yes, it can give you some great exposure as a player - although I must admit that I would be wary of hiring ANY musician who was primarily known as a "speed guy". I've played with enough guitarists who had astonishing speed but the musical maturity of a 2-year-old not to trust the idea that speed always develops hand in hand with musicianship. But if you're getting exposure that lets you present your actual playing (BTW, I saw a TV spot of yours before you showed up on the forum - good stuff!) then that's not going to be bad for you if there is something else there.

But on the other hand, I don't think that the existence of WFD is beneficial to the drum community as a whole. You've read around plenty of forums - you know the drill. How many kids out there are there who're actually taking conscious steps to improve as musicians, versus those who just want to involve themselves in cheap "My guy is the best" one-upmanship? While I'm sure the intentions of guys like Boo are entirely pure, the net effect of something like WFD is to be an extension of such arguments. I've seen people trying to prove technical arguments about trad grip versus matched by using WFD rankings. Then you see people arguing over the merits of double-kick-heavy drummers by pulling out WFD rankings.

You know what? I don't care about any of that stuff any more than I care whether Joey Jordison is better than Travis Barker. Things have their merits in and of themselves, and they should be judged on that basis. I actually DISLIKE the idea of giving exposure to people purely on the basis of speed because - as you stated above - it is something of a short cut that requires none of the musicality or expressive communication that would normally land a musician in the public eye. I can see why you might want to take advantage of that, but I don't think it benefits drummers as a whole.

With developments like the various versions of Drumkit From Hell, the ability to extract and store "groove quantise" patterns from existing recordings, developments in loop-slicing software and so forth we're rapidly approaching a time when you don't actually need a live drummer to get a live drum sound. Once that technology arrives, what is going to keep us getting hired? Is it:

a) A public image of having a deeper creative knowledge of rhythm, sound and orchestration than other musicians, making it worth hiring a drummer to get a great part quickly rather than spending all week messing around with a computer.

b) A public image of being obsessed with speed and technique.

Listen to the last Meshuggah album (Catch 33). I know it's not your regular cup of tea, but it's educational as to where certain styles may go. Meshuggah have an excellent drummer in the form of Thomas Haake, but due to time constraints the last album was realeased with DfHS-programmed drums instead of live recorded ones. Even for me, as a drummer, it's hard to tell the difference between some of Haake's more hurried recording work (say, Chaosphere) and the programmed stuff on Catch 33.

Don't you think that if we want to save our instrument from being a live-show-only novelty and keep a place for ourselves as serious musicians we as a community need to be making a conscious effort to develop and present ourselves as serious musicians? WFD aint that image, I'm pretty much certain of that.

[mattsmith]

Finn, my grandfather used to tell me that the hardest thing he ever did with beginner percussionists was to get them interested in rudiments. Now suddenly kids everywhere want to do it. Now you know why that is. Kids aren't going to WFD competitions playing wrong. That's part of it. When your stuff looks bad, Art Verdi takes you in a corner and straightens you out. Tim takes you over to the side to show you how to use less stress.
Too much is spent looking at the goofy part of it. It's the smallest part. I don't like that part either. I don't think they need it.

Everybody slams a single stroke roll like its easy, but most people are terrible at them. Why is that? The answer is they got bad fundamentals. And the single is where you get your endurance. Sometimes we forget that we have to play with other instruments, and to a man they all say the worst kind of drummer to them is one who gets tired and drags. It's like my old man says, "its too bad that drummers and lead trumpet players don't ask us about their point of view."

Look I see this absurd argument about groove all the time and its pretty much an argument without an outcome and I think some lazy musicians who don't want to do the work like it that way. To me alot of these so called groove experts are people who drag and try to call it a style. Behind the beat is a style? Give me a break.

Honestly, is anybody really going to say that a drummer with strong technique is not going to make a good groove needed for that particular music? That would be a crazy thing to say and I'm surprised by all the people who get a free pass when they do say it.

IMO the best and freshest grooves are from smoothly delivered independence that is almost like mind reading. This is like your Effortless Mastery. But the problem is alot of people read that book and think if they burn some inscense and chant then they don't have to practice. When you have chops, you can then get in that zone and everything that comes to your mind is there, as long as you did your listening and payin' attention. IMO That's what establishing a groove is.

In my case I had already gotten in the top two of the Louie Bellson contest and I had recorded Colrane tunes the year before. WFD helped me get on top of that alot better, and again nobody who is any good at this knows what it gives you if you are smart about it. And every ranked drummer on both the hands and the feet side are on top of it.

Finn, there is this crazy thought out there that drummers are jokes to everybody else. My family members all roll their eyes when they hear that. My grandfather is one of the best brass players on the planet and he can play amazing stuff for an hour and nobody gets it. We play two bars of nothin' fills and a thousand people cheer. I think our so called disrespect is a myth started by drummers with complexes.

Most of the world is amazed by the drum. I don't see how WFD kills all that.

This is a great talk. But maybe we should take it to the WFD thread, if dogbreath hasn't already thought of that anyway.

[finnhiggins]

Finn, my grandfather used to tell me that the hardest thing he ever did with beginner percussionists was to get them interested in rudiments. Now suddenly kids everywhere want to do it. Now you know why that is.


Well, I've narrowed it down to three possibilities: Travis Barker, Joey Jordison or Danny Carey... which one do you reckon it is ;)


Kids aren't going to WFD competitions playing wrong. That's part of it. When your stuff looks bad, Art Verdi takes you in a corner and straightens you out. Tim takes you over to the side to show you how to use less stress.


I get this. I really do. And as an environment I can really, really see the merits of this. But similarly, I think that the structure for the whole enterprise is just plain wrong. As you said, you've got an insane amount of attention for this. Why? Because it's an easy hook - the World's Fastest Drummer! - and it's pretty memorable. That hooky concept is what people remember, and what people think of.


Honestly, is anybody really going to say that a drummer with strong technique is not going to make a good groove needed for that particular music? That would be a crazy thing to say and I'm surprised by all the people who get a free pass when they do say it.


I'm going to say it.

Let's try to turn this around. Are you going to say that a guitarist with strong technique isn't going to come up with a great part to fit any piece of music? I certainly am. You wouldn't believe how many "shredders" I've played with in my time - particularly at music school. You see them in the practice room and all they do is practice blazingly fast double-picked scales and arpeggios ALL DAY. Eight, nine hours... they're still at it. Then you do a live performance with them and something like "The thrill is gone" by BB King gets called. They fluff the entire tune, rush incessantly, miss chord changes, forget their place, and then when the solo comes along... they undo that top button on their shirt and SHRED - horribly, inappropriately, and until they realise that they've over-run the solo by four bars and the singer has already come back in.

Don't get me wrong, their fingers look great flying everywhere. And while they're busting out the stuff they've actually practiced then they have a lot of fire and energy. But as expressive musicians they utterly, utterly suck. And I've seen some guys like that in bands, too, and the parts that they write are hideously sophomoric - chord progressions are tailored to whatever they can shred over in the most impressive manner, and their understanding of rhythm is frequently just plain dodgy.

Sorry, but technique is a very, very small part of what makes up a musician. Sure, without good technique it's hard to play a good-sounding consistent groove. And sometimes I find timing or co-ordinational issues that are down to technical problems and I have to practice to correct them. But technique alone? Useless.


IMO the best and freshest grooves are from smoothly delivered independence that is almost like mind reading. This is like your Effortless Mastery. But the problem is alot of people read that book and think if they burn some inscense and chant then they don't have to practice. When you have chops, you can then get in that zone and everything that comes to your mind is there, as long as you did your listening and payin' attention. IMO That's what establishing a groove is.


Anybody who takes away the idea from the Kenny Werner book that they don't need to practice is clearly illiterate. The whole idea of the book from my reading was to present an approach to practicing that negates common obstacles caused by ego or depression sourced from an excessive personal entanglement with your own playing, and therefore delivers more effective results. OK, it was a touch heavy on the hippy claptrap, but that didn't stop it having some excellent points.

And if you think that establishing a groove is a function of chops alone then I'm going to have to feel a little sad about that. Building a groove requires control of your limbs - that's the chops bit - but beyond that it's all about ears, taste and musical understanding.


Finn, there is this crazy thought out there that drummers are jokes to everybody else. My family members all roll their eyes when they hear that. My grandfather is one of the best brass players on the planet and he can play amazing stuff for an hour and nobody gets it. We play two bars of nothin' fills and a thousand people cheer. I think our so called disrespect is a myth started by drummers with complexes.


I don't believe people lack respect for drummers. But if you haven't noticed whole styles of music evolving with drummers replaced by machines then I'd suggest your jazz background may be affecting your perspective. Quite simply, drummers are *expensive*. At a time when the trend in the recording industry is away from major studios and towards a lot more home-based recording drummers are becoming a very expensive thing to accommodate - we're basically the only thing in a home studio that requires more than four good preamp channels and a couple of nice microphones.

If we can be replaced for many recordings by software costing less than it costs to buy the gear to record us then it absolutely will happen. Here's the thing, while people enjoy watching drummers I don't think generally speaking we deserve a lot of respect from a general musicianship point of view. Outside jazz, how many drummers are there who are renowned band leaders or songwriters?

We have to keep ourselves valuable to other musicians, and basically my view is that as the technology evolves we have to keep on top of that - we have to be able to use it, and to do what it does ourselves. That does require a lot of technique, but we also have to convince other people we're not just obsessed with spending years learning to do something they can program in 30 seconds flat.


Most of the world is amazed by the drum. I don't see how WFD kills all that.


It doesn't. But I do feel it cheapens the image of drummers as creative musicians, which is already a pretty poor one to be honest. This at a time when drummers need to be raising our profile in this respect to avoid losing yet more paid work to keyboard players and software developers.

The next big style will be along sometime soon. I don't know what it will be, but I hope drummers are involved in it - unlike so many times in the last 20 years. We really, really missed the boat with hip-hop, similarly there's very little live dance music featuring drummers. If you're worried about where YOU are supposed to earn income from then WFD might have some potential, but if you're worried about where drummers as a whole are going to be earning it from then having us publically represented by a competition for who can wiggle their fingers the fastest is probably a go-nowhere idea. You reckon that's going to entice any aspiring hip-hop acts to go "Hey, why don't we get one of those drummer guys?".

It's not. If they get one it's probably more down to somebody like ?uestlove, who would probably lose a WFD singles drum-off with ME, for crying out loud. And last time I checked I don't clock any faster than 820. No offence to Mike or Art, but I think he's a much more positive force for drummers as a whole standing a chance of getting profitable gigs in a popular style than they are - he makes drummers cool to a whole lot of people who might actually hire us.

[mattsmith]

Finn, my answer is on the WFD UK thread. Its more appropriate there, and I don't want to be accused of hijacking this thread.

[theduke86]

I thought I'd weight in with some well deserved (or not so well deserved) opinions.
Derek Roddy is a really, really, really good drummer. He's not just playing metal, he's playing some cool latin stuff, he's got some fusion chops, and his swing actually isn't half bad either. His music isn't my cup of tea- the guy certainly has some mad abillities, no doubt, but I think when these people (not just Derek) come in and slam WFD like speed's not important when he can't even play on a drumometer that fast is lame.
WFD isn't this alien terrible concept, or the second coming of Satan like Matt says. I actually think a lot of good can come from WFD. We got a drumometer at school, and it pushed my peers and even my teacher harder. It turned into a little competition to work on hand rudiments, not just singles. The first time, I went in there with my bud who's a drum corps guy and played singles and doubles for a minute. For singles, I tested around 930 in a minute, he tested in the low 800's. For doubles, he was almost at 1000. I don't want to give public description of my score because I didn't score as well. My endurance isn't where it should be.
Anyways, the central point is that after that, I went home and shedded doubles a little while, went back three weeks later and scored quite a bit better. That sort of thing is very healthy. I didn't kill myself with trying to get better than my bud, but it was nice for a little healthy competition. That's why I think WFD can be healthy in some ways. Matt, it certainly hasn't hurt you. Or Mangini, or Rabb, or Jotan or whatever ape-freak drummer man! Those guys are all great players. I think the bad thing is when people become totally consumed in speed and use it just to be speedy. I have known guys who just blastbeat all day. I hate that sort of stuff- they're just trying to get past 250 bpm or whatever, it's pretty ridiculous. nevermind playing any sort of music, they're just shedding metal speed chops. I don't like that kind of jibber-jabber. As Finn said, this turns into the same thing with metal guitarists. I hate it.
Now Finn, in regards to the Werner book (which I read and liked) it seems that everyone takes something from it. I think you, as an example, would get much more out of it- you're a more mature musician and person than most people and you'd definetly benefit from it. Some of the ideas discussed in the Werner book seem very esoteric to me. I don't know if anyone's familiar with Abraham Maslow, but it seems like his hierarchy of needs idea... Before you worry about say, self actualisation or something, it makes a lot more sense to worry about getting food to eat for dinner. Same thing applies here. If you don't have the chops... let me rephrase. If you don't have the abillity (who gives a shite about fast snare technique or whatever) it's not going to matter if you truly realise that competition is a weakness among musicians. I think Effortless Mastery is more a philosophical treatise for the already strong musician. Like Matt said, there are SO many people I know who read that book and then turn it into an excuse not to practice at all. It's that whole "hip cat" thing, if you're into Werner, then you never need to run scales. There's a player (who plays a lot around town here for a variety of reasons, very little to do with good musicianship) who's very, very into this book and turns it into an excuse not to do anything. Because practicing is a sorts of competition, right? At least, that's what he tells me. I want to tell him to start running major scale patterns in thirds because he's not clean anymore.
However, this isn't to diminish the worth of the Werner book... to bring up a historical situation, it reminds me of Neitzche's "Superman" ideas being corrupted into Nazism. Not that I'm making a direct comparison between the two situations, just pointing out the similarites; a subjective well informed philosophy that's been corrupted and applied wrongly by evildoers. Except this new "Ubermensch" listens to only free jazz (not that there's ANYTHING wrong with free stuff), wears berets, carries bongos around everywhere, has a stupid goatee, smokes pot a lot and waxes philosophical about situations they are not aware about. That's why some view Effortless Mastery as bad. I'm now the Matt Smith apologist, haha.

[osamasgoat5467]

Its Tim Waterson. I think he holds the world records for singles and doubles.