portnoy, bad technique??

[IronSabbath]

I was watching the dream theater score dvd. I noticed that he holds the sticks really low, it looks like the end or butt of the stick is in his palm. That is how I actually play also. In my other thread about proper matched grip, they said that you should hold the sticks a little higher up. Well the "falcrum" is not at the very bottom of the stick, but how does portnoy get such good results in is playing, holding the sticks like that if its the "wrong way"??

---and I dont think this needs to be in the portnoy drummers section, He just happens to be the person I am comparing my grip to, thats it.

[h3r3tic]

I personally think that maybe by holding the stick that way he gets less rebound. Maybe that´s the way he wants it to be.
There are lots of traditional grip drummer that also hold the stick way to back and maybe it´s the same reason as portnoy´s.
Looks like backbeats are what matters to them...

[DrumMasterDave]

Portnoy has poor technique when it comes to stick grip. This may be true. But when you are as experianced and skilled as him, he doesnt need to worry about getting that extra few bounces out of each stroke. He is at a level where he can play everything he needs and wants to play where he is. However, he may not be playing like that for as long as other well known drummers like chapin or rich.

[JWM]

I would agree that MP does not have very good technique.

Personally, I think his playing has gotten worse over the years. I think his work early on was fantastic (Images and Words, Awake), but not so much in the past several years.

But with his technique, his style has never really demanded a better technique. He never does anything very rudimental, and he doesn't use a lot of dynamics either such as ghost notes, etc. His playing is mostly comprised of hand/foot fills using the double bass (which really isn't that hard), moderately fast singles with the feet and a straight-rock approach to grooves. That said, he did do some great things with his bag of tricks early on in terms of meter and phrasing.

[bighaibigdrums]

His technique is fine for him. With any artisitic technique you modify it for the individual. If you look at all the masters you will notice that thier grips are all slightly different.

[finnhiggins]

His technique is fine for him. With any artisitic technique you modify it for the individual. If you look at all the masters you will notice that thier grips are all slightly different.

Yeah, but Portnoy actually has objectively bad technique. His playing is limited and defined by it - why do you think he's all short groupings with the hands and feet? You don't seriously think it's a musical choice for him to play less technically, given his band?

[Synthetik]

Pity. No drummer with technique that poor will ever make it into the MD hall of fame. :P

I heard the ghost of Keith Moon giggling proudly.

[bighaibigdrums]

Yeah, but Portnoy actually has objectively bad technique. His playing is limited and defined by it - why do you think he's all short groupings with the hands and feet? You don't seriously think it's a musical choice for him to play less technically, given his band?

No, I think he's developed a technique that works for him. Just like the aforemention Moon, and Bonham, Rich ect. Everybody plays differently. Besides Mikes made a great career for himself, flawed technique and all.

[finnhiggins]

No, I think he's developed a technique that works for him. Just like the aforemention Moon, and Bonham, Rich ect. Everybody plays differently. Besides Mikes made a great career for himself, flawed technique and all.

I guess the question to ask yourself would be: If Mike had Thomas Lang's chops, would he use it? Would it fit his music? Then ask yourself the same question about, say, Bernard Purdie or Ringo. Bernard Purdie or Ringo both have rather limited techniques too, but what you've described here is pretty accurate for them - the technique works for what they do, and they're not limited by its limitations.

Portnoy is quite clearly limited by his limitations, but he's just defined his style inside them. I sincerely doubt that he wouldn't have use for Thomas Lang or Virgil Donati chops if he actually HAD them, which isn't true of the other two guys above.

[Synthetik]

I guess the question to ask yourself would be: If Mike had Thomas Lang's chops, would he use it? Would it fit his music? Then ask yourself the same question about, say, Bernard Purdie or Ringo. Bernard Purdie or Ringo both have rather limited techniques too, but what you've described here is pretty accurate for them - the technique works for what they do, and they're not limited by its limitations.

Portnoy is quite clearly limited by his limitations, but he's just defined his style inside them. I sincerely doubt that he wouldn't have use for Thomas Lang or Virgil Donati chops if he actually HAD them, which isn't true of the other two guys above.

He does seem to build his parts on a set of chops and phrases that don't vary much. He showcases most of that on his progressive rock concepts video.

Since you mentioned it:
The new Thomas Lang dvd interests me. I see he will have to win over those that chastise him for only being technical, and not grooving. I am buckling in for the inevitable debate. (Should be in December) I can hear it now. "I TOLD you he could groove" "Yeah but he's no Gadd and never will be..."

There is a clear gap between Lang's chops and precise techniques v.s. Portnoy's. Portnoy's boundries are evident in his soloing...

But I digress. I like Mike.

[gusty]

Mike Portnoy is a great drummer.

It's hard to argue that statement.

Anyway, I just bought Images and Words- and I think it's crap. I reckon it sounds like they just got in the studio and recorded random stuff. Random lyrics, IMO just doesn't feel very structured. I want to get Awake though, since I am learning 6:00. Dam, it is hard. I can play up to about "6:00 on a christmas morning". Yeah havent even listened to the song after that.

[gusty]

Pity. No drummer with technique that poor will ever make it into the MD hall of fame. :P

I heard the ghost of Keith Moon giggling proudly.

You love a good sarcastic argument dont you lol.

[Synthetik]

You love a good sarcastic argument dont you lol.

Somebody has to carry the torch...

Honestly, I have each and every one of Mike's performances. I love his "drumcam" videos.

But at the same time, like all drum Gods, there are limits. Much like the same way no one will ever confuse his playing with Zigaboo Modelist's.

[gusty]

Somebody has to carry the torch...

Honestly, I have each and every one of Mike's performances. I love his "drumcam" videos.

Yeah me too. Really good.

[finnhiggins]

Here's one thing that might prevent this thread going too far off the rails - when I talk about technique I'm talking solely about mechanics and touch. I'm not talking about speed, or how "technical" his playing is - the tricks he uses, the time signatures he plays in. Just how he moves, how he handles stick rebound and so forth. In that respect I really do think he's a pretty shocking player - his technique is well below everything else in his playing. If you had to rate Portnoy's attributes in order of quality I'd really hope you'd place his technique right down the bottom.

[gusty]

Here's one thing that might prevent this thread going too far off the rails - when I talk about technique I'm talking solely about mechanics and touch. I'm not talking about speed, or how "technical" his playing is - the tricks he uses, the time signatures he plays in. Just how he moves, how he handles stick rebound and so forth. In that respect I really do think he's a pretty shocking player - his technique is well below everything else in his playing. If you had to rate Portnoy's attributes in order of quality I'd really hope you'd place his technique right down the bottom.
oh ok, i was thinking technique more along the lines of speed, singles, double bass and watever. and how come he holds his left stick (might not do it all the time, only on what i've seen) with the butt end hitting the drum? i also saw lang do this once. why is this?

[Synthetik]

Here's one thing that might prevent this thread going too far off the rails - when I talk about technique I'm talking solely about mechanics and touch. I'm not talking about speed, or how "technical" his playing is - the tricks he uses, the time signatures he plays in. Just how he moves, how he handles stick rebound and so forth. In that respect I really do think he's a pretty shocking player - his technique is well below everything else in his playing. If you had to rate Portnoy's attributes in order of quality I'd really hope you'd place his technique right down the bottom.

You'll get no argument from me there. I am putting on "drumavarium" later and I am going to look at it from a cold perspective. That is, I intend to really examine the way he does execute the mechanics (not chops) of his playing.

Perhaps Mike would benefit from a visit to Freddy Gruber.

EDIT: I will try to get a screencap of his grip if there is a good image.

[Synthetik]

Notes from "Drumavarium" DVD:

For the most part, Mike seems to grab the very butt end of the drumstick. He uses a pretty tight matched grip, with very little finger technique. There isn't much of a Moeller technique in use either.

I could surmise that although his techniques work for him, it is a heavy, inarticulate, inefficient and and incorrect grip. It doesn't show the sophistication of a lot of jazz drummers, or economy of motion.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Here's one thing that might prevent this thread going too far off the rails - when I talk about technique I'm talking solely about mechanics and touch. I'm not talking about speed, or how "technical" his playing is - the tricks he uses, the time signatures he plays in. Just how he moves, how he handles stick rebound and so forth. In that respect I really do think he's a pretty shocking player - his technique is well below everything else in his playing. If you had to rate Portnoy's attributes in order of quality I'd really hope you'd place his technique right down the bottom.


He has what drum corps guys derisively call "drum set chops". He's probably never worked on a pad or snare seriously in his life. He uses way too much muscular effort to play.

Dom Famularo would start him right back at the free stroke.

One could look at this two ways. The easy way would be to say: "I guess good hand technique isn't that critical to a set player". The truer way way would be to say "I don't want those limitations on my playing so I'm going to work on hand technique seriously."

I advocate the latter approach. I also encourage all drummers to take off their "hero worship" glasses and really examine drummers in action. Many kids might be surprised if I told them that Jason McGerr from Death Cab for Cutie has MUCH better hand technique than most of their prog rock heros. But it's true.

Don't believe the hype.

[Wavelength]

Mike Portnoy has what drum corps guys derisively call "drum set chops". He's probably never worked on a pad or snare seriously in his life. He uses way too much muscular effort to play.

Yep. Seeing him on a video was a real eye-opener for me. Seeing him play what he plays with such unrefined technique is just amazing. No wonder he suffers from forearm pain...

[DamoSyzygy]

Anyway, I just bought Images and Words- and I think it's crap.
Thats probably because youve cut your teeth on newer DT.

The Kevin Moore era was a great time for DT and Images and Words is a classic album.

[dizkneelande]

there is no wrong or right way unless it does some sort of damage to your hands or elbows or shoulders

[Shinx]

He has what drum corps guys derisively call "drum set chops". He's probably never worked on a pad or snare seriously in his life. He uses way too much muscular effort to play.

Dom Famularo would start him right back at the free stroke.

One could look at this two ways. The easy way would be to say: "I guess good hand technique isn't that critical to a set player". The truer way way would be to say "I don't want those limitations on my playing so I'm going to work on hand technique seriously."

I advocate the latter approach. I also encourage all drummers to take off their "hero worship" glasses and really examine drummers in action. Many kids might be surprised if I told them that Jason McGerr from Death Cab for Cutie has MUCH better hand technique than most of their prog rock heros. But it's true.

Don't believe the hype.Heh, very interesting post, I'm going to have to start watching some death cab videos

[Jeff Almeyda]

there is no wrong or right way unless it does some sort of damage to your hands or elbows or shoulders

This statement seems true on the surface but I must disagree.

I judge a technique based upon how tension free it is and how it facilitates my speaking on the instrument. Not injuring myself is always a concern but it can't be the ONLY one.

Assume two techniques, neither of which is likely to lead to injury. The "right" one would be the one which allowed me to say what I wished to say with minumum physical effort and no tension.

Using whole leg vs ankle technique on double bass as an example: I can play 16ths at 200 BPM with either technique without hurting myself. It's just that I use much more effort to get the 16ths out with the whole leg than with just the ankle. So what's right? It's obvious that there comes a point tempo-wise when I need to switch to ankle. That's the RIGHT technique for that application.

When I see a young, athletic metal drummer getting the 16ths out with just pure muscle I remember how it used to be and I smile to myself. He's doing twice as much work as he needs to.

This is where Portnoy's hand chops are at. He says what he has to say but the effort involved is high. As he ages, he will need to refine his technique or it just won't happen for him anymore. (Can anyone say Lars?)

I am NOT trying to blast Mike (or Lars) but the truth is what it is.

[Johnest]

there is no wrong or right way unless it does some sort of damage to your hands or elbows or shoulders

If you listen to the Dream Theater Live at Budokan DVD, on the tour documentary, Mike says that he have some problem with his elbows and wrists. He will need a change of technique some day...

[Vic_Rattledeth]

This is kind of out of nowhere, but somebody earlier in the thread said Portnoy doesn't use ghost notes much in his playing, all I have to say is are you mad? Mike throws ghost notes in everywhere in songs, specially note The Dance Of Eternity, 1/4th of that song is ghost notes. I do agree that he has bad technique though...doesn't really matter though seeing as how it works well for him. I would have thought him going to Berklee and all would have fixed his grip.

[finnhiggins]

This is kind of out of nowhere, but somebody earlier in the thread said Portnoy doesn't use ghost notes much in his playing, all I have to say is are you mad? Mike throws ghost notes in everywhere in songs, specially note The Dance Of Eternity, 1/4th of that song is ghost notes. I do agree that he has bad technique though...doesn't really matter though seeing as how it works well for him. I would have thought him going to Berklee and all would have fixed his grip.

The "Portnoy went to Berklee" thing is a bit of a myth, from what I've read. Sure, he went there. But from the interviews I read he basically went there for a fairly short period, and spent most of his time there cutting classes to play with what turned into Dream Theater. He's certainly not got any of the attributes of the archetypal "Berklee drummer"...

[JWM]

This is kind of out of nowhere, but somebody earlier in the thread said Portnoy doesn't use ghost notes much in his playing, all I have to say is are you mad? Mike throws ghost notes in everywhere in songs, specially note The Dance Of Eternity, 1/4th of that song is ghost notes. I do agree that he has bad technique though...doesn't really matter though seeing as how it works well for him. I would have thought him going to Berklee and all would have fixed his grip.
When I was coming up as a player, I listened to two bands more than any other-- Dream Theater and Tower of Power.

Mike doesn't do much ghost note playing.

[sshu]

Notes from "Drumavarium" DVD:

For the most part, Mike seems to grab the very butt end of the drumstick. He uses a pretty tight matched grip, with very little finger technique. There isn't much of a Moeller technique in use either.

I could surmise that although his techniques work for him, it is a heavy, inarticulate, inefficient and and incorrect grip. It doesn't show the sophistication of a lot of jazz drummers, or economy of motion.

I wonder if there's any correlation with grabbing the stick nearer to the butt and the size of the cymbal setup and kit. If I had his kit, I'd probably have to adapt to holding the sticks at the end too! When I switched to traditional grip, I found I needed to move everything in closer and get slightly longer sticks ...

FWIW - his more athletic playing style (perhaps incluenced by the grip) is one of the many entertaining parts to watch about Dream Theater.

Steve

[drew.]

he hits with the butt end of the stick with his left hand to get better rim shot. (i heard him talking about it on some commentary on one of his dvds

[gusty]

Thats probably because youve cut your teeth on newer DT.

The Kevin Moore era was a great time for DT and Images and Words is a classic album.

First album: Scenes from a memory
Second album: Images and Words

Scenes from a memory is awsome, haven't cut my teeth, just listened to the better stuff first.

[Synthetik]

I wonder if there's any correlation with grabbing the stick nearer to the butt and the size of the cymbal setup and kit. If I had his kit, I'd probably have to adapt to holding the sticks at the end too! When I switched to traditional grip, I found I needed to move everything in closer and get slightly longer sticks ...

FWIW - his more athletic playing style (perhaps incluenced by the grip) is one of the many entertaining parts to watch about Dream Theater.

Steve

I did the same thing. It's especially important with a Portnoy-like kit. There are things you can do for better ergonomics and economy of motion. Just cut the distance and tweak the angles to work.

I noticed that the more I pay attention to technique, the less lactic acid builds up in my arms. I can play longer with less effort and fatigue.

Being rigid, with a hard grip is a mistake for me.

And FWIW: I don't like using just a butt-end. It's too much of a blunt instrument for bludgeoning stuff. I am using 3A's right now.

[h3r3tic]

First album: Scenes from a memory
Second album: Images and Words

Scenes from a memory is awsome, haven't cut my teeth, just listened to the better stuff first.

I think When Dream And Day Unite was their first album and then came Images and Words

[gusty]

I think When Dream And Day Unite was their first album and then came Images and Words
first and second album that i bought

[Drummer30]

If you are all looking for a spot to take a look at his stick holding, check out his paradigm shift video on his drummerworld page. You can see after he starts playing it to the acompanying instruments at the end of the video, he sits back down after a little stick twirl and holds his sticks so you can see them as he is seating himself. Run through it a couple of times and pause it to see it. From what I see, his whole hand is on the stick, which means that he may not always play with it so far out of his hand. I also just found that his MD Fest Highlight video shows when he turns around to face the crowd at the end, he is playing his cymbal, and the stick also appears to be fully in his hand. Are you sure this "bad" technique is actually what he uses?

[gusty]

I also just found that his MD Fest Highlight video shows when he turns around to face the crowd at the end, he is playing his cymbal, and the stick also appears to be fully in his hand. Are you sure this "bad" technique is actually what he uses?

Have you seen it? That was what got me into MP. Had awsome hair back then.

[Drummer30]

Seen what? His poor technique that was originally discussed, the video, his hair? Please expain.

[gusty]

Seen what? His poor technique that was originally discussed, the video, his hair? Please expain.
"I also just found that his MD Fest Highlight video shows when he turns around to face the crowd at the end, he is playing his cymbal, and the stick also appears to be fully in his hand."
Did you see it.

[DamoSyzygy]

If you listen to the Dream Theater Live at Budokan DVD, on the tour documentary, Mike says that he have some problem with his elbows and wrists. He will need a change of technique some day...
Interestingly, Dave Weckl is also having hand pain problems recently.

[gusty]

Interestingly, Dave Weckl is also having hand pain problems recently.
Would that be because of his technique?

[secondXheartbeat]

I remember on the Steve Smith DVD he lists three staples of a great technique.

A "good" technique is one that:
1.) Looks good
2.) Feels good
3.) Doesn't hurt you (short term or long term)

So, it looks like Portnoy has only met one of these. His techinique doesn't look good, if it did we wouldn't be discussing it right now. Also, due to is complaints, it's obviously causing him some damage. But, it must feel good to him (or used to) or else he wouldn't have started playing like that.

[h3r3tic]

I remember on the Steve Smith DVD he lists three staples of a great technique.

A "good" technique is one that:
1.) Looks good
2.) Feels good
3.) Doesn't hurt you (short term or long term)

So, it looks like Portnoy has only met one of these. His techinique doesn't look good, if it did we wouldn't be discussing it right now. Also, due to is complaints, it's obviously causing him some damage. But, it must feel good to him (or used to) or else he wouldn't have started playing like that.

AMEN BRO!
Right said Steve ;)

[centralzeke]

Where did you hear or read Dave Weckl has been having problems? Because he is all about rebound and relaxation now.

[dan]

Where did you hear or read Dave Weckl has been having problems? Because he is all about rebound and relaxation now.

The keyword in that sentance is now.

I'm guessing that because of the way he used to play it is affecting his hands now, and probably is what pushed him to change his technique...

[n2xlr8n]

That was a thought I had never expressed in public about Mike's technique.

I respect him as a rock drummer, and he's influenced my playing in many ways, mostly thinking in terms of 5's and 6's for fills.

In regards to trying to duplicate his technique, I knew in 1991 listening to my first DT tune in Riverside, CA that I would have to take the "hard road" to arrive where I wanted to be. Only the truly gifted, i.e. Dennis Chambers, can take giant leaps; certainly not I.

S.

[h3r3tic]

I think that Mike is just overusing his wrists and arms too. But no one said that he was a bad drummer. I love Mike Portnoy´s musicality :) he makes it sound so cool like how he places his stuff into his music but when he´s hitting his drums you can tell that if he doesn´t change his technique he´ll get heart...
Too much energy for something that doesn´t beg for much.
REBOUND IS ABSOLUTLY IMPORTANT!

Like Jim Chapin said:
"If you´re a loud player, you don´t overuse the thumb or wrist"
"If they say no pain - no gain then shoot 'em! ":)

AMEN JIM;)

[emmerson]

i personally think his technique lacks but to counter that i find i like alot of his chops even if their not the best it still catches my attention and he works well with the music he plays

[Drummer30]

Sorry about the late response, yes Gusty I did see it. Actually 3 out of the 4 videos show at some point that the sitck is in his hand the wole way. I must agree though, he seems to limit the bounce in order to quicken how fast he gets back to the drum for the next stroke. Definitely not that healthy, but his style and performances are still something to behold regardless of his technique.

[finnhiggins]

I think you're really over-rationalising here. Killing rebound doesn't get you anywhere faster unless you're trying to play a down stroke. Let me illustrate:

Rebound:

* Throw stick down from height required to get desired power.
* Stick bounces back to starting point, ready for another stroke.
* Repeat

No rebound:

* Lift stick to height required to get desired power
* Throw stick down
* Kill rebound
* Repeat

The second takes more time, not less, and it's no coicidence that there are many faster drummers than Mike and ALL of them have better control of rebound. His style (with all the breaking up of stuff between limbs, the limited use of subtleties of dynamics and tone on each surface and so forth) is something that he's clearly developed to get around the speed and control inherant in the technique he uses.

It's just just where he grips the stick, either. His arm movements are excessive, he's got a lot of tension in his playing, he positions things in severely uncomfortable positions (anybody seen the hilarious "duck flap" he does on one of the LTE tunes on his DVD in order to play toms on both sides at the same time? I've yet to show that to a non-drummer who doesn't laugh riotously at that one) and so forth. Quite simply I think it'd be much quicker to list what he does right than what he gets wrong, because there's a lot less of it, at least technically speaking. Every good technique teacher I've ever had would be wanting to pull his whole approach back to square one if they had the opportunity.

Portnoy, for me, is a drummer who succeeds despite his technique. It scares me a little that lots of young drummers conflate his "Technical" playing approach with actual technique, and think that they should be imitating the way he moves or approaches the kit.

[Drummer30]

Sorry Finnhiggens, I think I worded that wrong. What I meant was that was how he seems to be playing, regardless of how much more effort it takes. I personally am one to try and use rebound to my advantage. I didn't mean to say that that was beneficial, just rather that it is what I see him doing. I completely agree that it takes more effort and the fact that he is a great drummer despite his technique.

[gusty]

Sorry about the late response, yes Gusty I did see it. Actually 3 out of the 4 videos show at some point that the sitck is in his hand the wole way. I must agree though, he seems to limit the bounce in order to quicken how fast he gets back to the drum for the next stroke. Definitely not that healthy, but his style and performances are still something to behold regardless of his technique.

*comic book guy* Best. Performance. Ever. haha

[moncholo]

he has poor hand technique, can't really go that fast withhands and he suffers from tendinitis

[Blue]

This kind of stuff really pisses me off... technique is a means to an end, and is not, I don't believe, a basis on which to really judge someone as a musician... Mike portnoy, more importantly has great feel in the context of the music and really drives it, which is not easy to do in such a powerhouse setting. Who cares about his grip? Who cares about where he holds the stick? Sorry if I'm a little angry about this, just because I used to be obsessed with grip and what is 'technically correct?' That's bs... everything you do in terms of grip makes a difference in the sound you get from the drum. If he held the sticks at the fulcrum point, he wouldn't get as heavy of a sound. Jazz players employ different grips and movements to produce the myriad of sounds they get from their instruments... What he chooses to play for the music and perfect, which is why he's so good... and I'm not even that big of a fan of his, but I respect him for what he does...

[Drum-Head]

This kind of stuff really pisses me off... technique is a means to an end, and is not, I don't believe, a basis on which to really judge someone as a musician... Mike portnoy, more importantly has great feel in the context of the music and really drives it, which is not easy to do in such a powerhouse setting. Who cares about his grip? Who cares about where he holds the stick? Sorry if I'm a little angry about this, just because I used to be obsessed with grip and what is 'technically correct?' That's bs... everything you do in terms of grip makes a difference in the sound you get from the drum. If he held the sticks at the fulcrum point, he wouldn't get as heavy of a sound. Jazz players employ different grips and movements to produce the myriad of sounds they get from their instruments... What he chooses to play for the music and perfect, which is why he's so good... and I'm not even that big of a fan of his, but I respect him for what he does...

But the guys here, from what I understand, are not judging Mike's musicality, nor whether he is a good drummer or not. The whole idea here is to discuss about his execution of mechanics.

I remembered when someone brought his DVD to class to show the other students MP. The first thing the teacher said is that he is a great drummer but the way he sits, the way he holds his sticks and executes his strokes is not what he would recommend and that one could end up hurting himself.

[IronSabbath]

Well I didnt make this topic to bash portnoy, because he is one of my fav drummers, and DT one of my fav bands. In my other thread, people were explaining to me the "correct" way to hold sticks. So based on if they are right about grip, it just shows that portnoy never took time to learn "proper" hand technique. I also noticed that my natural grip is alot like his. so basicaly what I wanted to get from this is this, Portnoy never took lessons, and by not playing the "correct" way, he still became a great influencial drummer to many. I know this will sound stupid, but he gives me hope. He made it in music without proper technique and lessons, I want to make it in music also, and I dont know proper techniques or took lessons either. I know that not taking lessons is a mistake, but he shows that it is possible to be a success without them.

[gusty]

Well I didnt make this topic to bash portnoy, because he is one of my fav drummers, and DT one of my fav bands. In my other thread, people were explaining to me the "correct" way to hold sticks. So based on if they are right about grip, it just shows that portnoy never took time to learn "proper" hand technique. I also noticed that my natural grip is alot like his. so basicaly what I wanted to get from this is this, Portnoy never took lessons, and by not playing the "correct" way, he still became a great influencial drummer to many. I know this will sound stupid, but he gives me hope. He made it in music without proper technique and lessons, I want to make it in music also, and I dont know proper techniques or took lessons either. I know that not taking lessons is a mistake, but he shows that it is possible to be a success without them.

good post
202020202020

[finnhiggins]

It is always possible to do something without learning to do it the legit, normal way. But there should be little argument that you lower your odds, percentage-wise, of succeeding at what you do by closing your mind to the options that are available. It's like education - there are people with fantastic jobs at great companies with no degree and the minimum school-level education. But there's a hell of a lot MORE people at those companies who have degrees..

[timebandit]

What all this contraversy over Mike's stick maybe sliding up in his hand alittle?

[Bad Drummer]

This kind of stuff really pisses me off... technique is a means to an end, and is not, I don't believe, a basis on which to really judge someone as a musician... Mike portnoy, more importantly has great feel in the context of the music and really drives it, which is not easy to do in such a powerhouse setting. Who cares about his grip? Who cares about where he holds the stick? Sorry if I'm a little angry about this, just because I used to be obsessed with grip and what is 'technically correct?' That's bs... everything you do in terms of grip makes a difference in the sound you get from the drum. If he held the sticks at the fulcrum point, he wouldn't get as heavy of a sound. Jazz players employ different grips and movements to produce the myriad of sounds they get from their instruments... What he chooses to play for the music and perfect, which is why he's so good... and I'm not even that big of a fan of his, but I respect him for what he does...

First off, no one is bashing his musicianship, he is indeed a great drummer and no one here denies that, but his technique is really not something that one should imitate. It's crappy technique, and his limitations are sometimes evident in the way he plays. He's apparently suffering for that now (pain) as well.

[Drummer30]

These opinion threads sure have a way of getting to bashing and prasing, intended or not. Regardless, I think that everyone is definitely sure that Mike is a great drummer, in fact he is one of my favourites, but the general idea is that his technique is lacking. In stating that his technique is odd or lesser in "quality" is just our nature. Everyone is looking for things that they should try to take from the great talents of the best drummers out there and where they should notice that there are problems. By analyzing Mike, we are finding what the benefits and disadvantages are to playing the way he does. So to settle the dust here, I think I'd like to try and point out that we aren't trying to bash Mike, in fact most of the posts have praised him musicianship, but on the flipside, maybe it would be more postive in the future to simply give examples of what we have seen to carry the discussion instead of just blunt opinions.