Ultimate Speed Goals

[daddyyabjee]

So folks, what would your ultimate speed goals be as it pertains to drum rudiments/ techniques using your hands and feet?

Mine would be:

* Hands - 240BPM (16th-note single strokes)
* Feet - 225BPM (16th-notes)

What are yours?

(Used the wrong wording originally - sorry guys!)

[Latin Groover]

Thats a bit extreme i think, to do clean flam parradidles at the same speed as normal parradidlles, or even singles and doubles. Maybe try setting yourself some musical goals, although it is good to have some speed behind you and the ability to pull some crazy ideas off. Feet at 225!? Singles with your feet that fast is awesome.

[KCDrummer]

So folks, what would your ultimate speed goals be as it pertains to drum rudiments/ techniques using your hands and feet?

Mine would be:

* Hands - 240BPM (all rudiments)
* Feet - 225BPM (again, all rudiments)

What are yours?

Have fun with that, I'll be over here, playing music.

[finnhiggins]

15bpm, all rudiments, hands and feet.

[NUTHA JASON]

LOL. i though so.

for me i think subdivisions of the most common tempos will be useful. most songs are around 120 - 130 or slower. so if i can play 32nds of these tempos neatly then i can apply the speed rather than just showcase it.

j

[finnhiggins]

Hey, it's not easy. I can just about do 30bpm now, but fifteen is going to take a lot of work.. and a new metronome!

[Jeff Almeyda]

So folks, what would your ultimate speed goals be as it pertains to drum rudiments/ techniques using your hands and feet?

Mine would be:

* Hands - 240BPM (all rudiments)
* Feet - 225BPM (again, all rudiments)

What are yours?

You goal is impossible to achieve without 15 years of practice in your basement at 10 hrs a day. When are you going to play some music? Will you be "good enough" only after you can play flam double paradiddles or triple ratamacues with your feet at a thousand miles an hour?

I suggest you re-evaluate your goals. The phrase "all rudiments" is just way too broad. You also display a lack of understanding of the rudiments because they CANNOT all be played at the same tempo.

I don't mean to be harsh but you must realize that people only care about how music makes them feel. All of the other stuff means nothing.

Here's some reality: You could have all the chops of Thomas Lang and if you were behind a crappy singer it wouldn't make a bit of difference. The people would still hate the band and the music.

Hmmm... I wonder what that might mean to an aspiring drummer?

Realize that you are just a cog in the wheel and you are learning professionalism.

What was it about music that first got you excited? Think back to a song you heard in your youth that just blew you away. What was it about the song that grabbed you? I'll bet a thousand dollars it was not the triple flam paradiddles played on the kick drums.

Those feelings that originally grabbed you are what you are trying to generate in your audience. If that is the case, then why spend so much time and attach SO MUCH importance to speed and chops, when it's patently obvious that "Lang-level" chops are not necessary to make GREAT music?

This is not an excuse to not practice "chops". It's just important to keep things in perspective.


If you must, set individual goals for some rudiments. You're going to be in for a rude awakening when you try doubles with your left foot (no heel-toe allowed!).

Good luck.

[Supersteve]

Hey, it's not easy. I can just about do 30bpm now, but fifteen is going to take a lot of work.. and a new metronome!


yeah my metronome only goes from I think 40 to 208 bpm.

[mattsmith]

So folks, what would your ultimate speed goals be as it pertains to drum rudiments/ techniques using your hands and feet?

Mine would be:

* Hands - 240BPM (all rudiments)
* Feet - 225BPM (again, all rudiments)

What are yours?
These numbers as sustainable goals frighten me.

[jazzsnob]

Fast enough to play anything I can program into the MIDI chip in my brain(which I plan on having).

I don't know if Thomas lang can play all rudiments at 240. Double drags and flam-diddlediddles at that tempo? It's impossible.

I don't know if speed is the right goal. I think it's good to have some technical goals that I want to complete maybe before I start teaching:

First Page of Stick Control:220 BPM
Anything out of "The Great American Drummer" at 80-120 bpm(60-100 for the 6/8 pieces)
Play every Portrait in Rhythm.
Play any page of both Louis Belson reading texts from 80-152 bpm.(with consideration of some pages)

I don't know, I think stuff like that is a bit more helpful, just because it's a somewhat musical goal, and better for your creativity and teaching ability.

But those are twenty or thirty years of playing music and practicing away.

[Tama Player]

I would likw to play 150 bmp on feet and 160 on hands, Im only fourteen, so i guess i have some time to work on it.( Right now I can do 90bpm on hands and feet)

[DreamTheater4life]

Hands: 250+
Feet: same

BUT at the same time still be able to groove at slower tempo's.

[low-tech]

Hands: 250+
Feet: same

BUT at the same time still be able to groove at slower tempo's.


Hands:3562189 beats per milisecond

Feet: same

one-up............

[jazzsnob]

This thread is too silly. I'm sorry.

[Class A Drummer]

speed goals... hmm.

I would have to say...

i would like to be able to play singles at 210 bpm at a steady rate for more than 10 seconds at a time and not to tense up to do it. (pretty much to maybe hold it for about a min).

[Jeff Almeyda]

speed goals... hmm.

I would have to say...

i would like to be able to play singles at 210 bpm at a steady rate for more than 10 seconds at a time and not to tense up to do it. (pretty much to maybe hold it for about a min).

Hey Class A,

As far as speed goals, your goals are at least more realistic than some of the other ones on this thread.

Relax, and it will come, given enough time.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Hands:3562189 beats per milisecond

Feet: same

one-up............


Yeah, but the new song by Drunken Decapitation Murder and Destruction has a blast beat section that's 3562190 beats per millisecond so you'd better get back to the shed!

[tomgrosset]

You realize that you're gonna have to squeeze as much practice time as you can if you want to achieve those goals of yours.

I would try and think about setting some musical goals. Don't pour all of your time into your fundamentals.

Playing extremely fast is one thing, but to play music through your instrument is strenuous to do as well.

[bonzo49]

Speed is not music, its just showing of. You can be brillient without going at 240BPM.

[low-tech]

Yeah, but the new song by Drunken Decapitation Murder and Destruction has a blast beat section that's 3562190 beats per millisecond so you'd better get back to the shed!


thats my band, man

that groove was my answer to the black page, i call it the "much darker and very triggered black page"

on a serious note, building speed is good just to have. i dont know if ALL rudiments and heel toe karate moves is something obtainible at that tempo as was stated. but i noticed when i started to go overboard in focusing on all things fast it built a solid foundation on over all conrol on mid tempo playing<like backbeats at 100 or something>especially going into doubletime and stuff.

granted its alot of work to just achieve the goal of filling in the spaces with as much bombast as humanly possible. i still sorta dig some drummers that, to a certain degree, show off a little more than they should or i would, that is if, the music is good. so i wont lambast it as the fall of civilization if someone is going for the technical side of things.


but slow tempo playing should NOT be neglected, im learning this painful lesson now. real slow is every bit as hard to play as super FAST, believe it or not. and it equally builds a good sense of time and control of the tempo in general.

alot of cowboys out there speed up and drag songs according to thier cardio<sped up first few song, dragged out sloppy ending of a set> moreso than an intentional effect<manipulating the tempo>. it tends to happen to some who ignore drilling slow tempos as a learning tool.

i used to be one of the worst offenders, and still am on occasion.

[jazzin']

Fast enough to play anything I can program into the MIDI chip in my brain(which I plan on having).

I don't know if Thomas lang can play all rudiments at 240. Double drags and flam-diddlediddles at that tempo? It's impossible.

I don't know if speed is the right goal. I think it's good to have some technical goals that I want to complete maybe before I start teaching:

First Page of Stick Control:220 BPM
Anything out of "The Great American Drummer" at 80-120 bpm(60-100 for the 66/8 pieces)
Play every Portrait in Rhythm.
Play any page of both Louis Belson reading texts from 80-152 bpm.(with consideration of some pages)

I don't know, I think stuff like that is a bit more helpful, just because it's a somewhat musical goal, and better for your creativity and teaching ability.

But those are twenty or thirty years of playing music and practicing away.

I quite like the look of these type of speed/technical goals.
I think just saying I'm going to play everything at well over 200 bpm is not only pretty unrealistic for most people, it's also a great exercise in bad time management. I hope this isn' coming across horribly and I'm not a big speed detractor at all but having well thought out and realistic goals will not only ensure you reach them, it will, as in jazzsnob's above quoted post, help improve other areas of your playing ie. reading, vocabulary and phrasing ideas, technique and musicality. All very important.
Also, there's so many rudiments, to get them all to insane speed's is probably not as good as having them all done well and technically sound but then focusing on a certain bunch using them in every which way possible speed wise and practically (as in chopping them up, spinning them 'round etc etc. all the little variations that can be used in musical situations).

[Auger]

Yeah, but the new song by Drunken Decapitation Murder and Destruction has a blast beat section that's 3562190 beats per millisecond so you'd better get back to the shed!

That's kind of impressive. ...but I know this guy who can to do single strokes fast enough to play A440 on his snare drum so the other guys in the band can tune.

Seriously though, while I think goals are good sometimes, I think it's best to concentrate on music as some others have said.

[Class A Drummer]

Hey Class A,

As far as speed goals, your goals are at least more realistic than some of the other ones on this thread.

Relax, and it will come, given enough time.
yeah thx, ive only just recently in the past couple weeks been able to hold it at 200 bpm for about 20-30 seconds.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I think what we all have to remember here is that speed is not necessarily equating to musicality, which all of us must possess to some extent. I'm not going to go and do the whole anti-WFD thing because that's completely irrelevant, pointless and for the record, I'm not anti-WFD at all, especially after Matt's intelligent comments.

However, speed should not be placed on a pedestal and used as the sole means to practice for. Extensive practice will naturally improve technique even without a specific focus and to be honest, you could be doing much more useful things with your time.

That said, I would always like to be a little faster. And cleaner. Clean playing gives the illusion of speed even if the speed isn't actually there.

[Ian Ballard]

The WFD is like the NFL's Fastest Man competition, which isn't held anymore.

If the guy can catch a pass in traffic or cover a reciever like a blanket... it's not really important if he has a 1/10th of a percent advantage in the 40 yard dash.

However, I think since I was first amazed by Buddy Rich's blurry hands and sticks as an impressionable little kid... I've always obsessed a little about being able to do that.

I always wonder how Buddy would have faired at the WFD.

[djp132]

All rudiments, each limb including my head playing a different one at the same time, at a thousand beats per second while playing a 17 against 11 polyrhythm via telekinesis on a cowbell in the other room. All this while eating a turkey sandwich.

The theory of relativity does not apply to me.

PS - buy my dvd

[jiltednut]

PS - buy my dvd

How??
2020202020202020

[djp132]

How??

Patience young padiwan...

[Tama Player]

[QUOTE=.Clean playing gives the illusion of speed even if the speed isn't actually there.[/QUOTE]
That is a great way of explaining it

[ajgdrums722]

Have fun with that, I'll be over here, playing music.


Amen.

Goals are great. Speed goals are useful. They shouldn't be the only reason you play though.

I'd love to get my speed up, and sure I work at it, but it's not the reason why I will or won't be a great drummer. A drummer playing at 75 BPM can blow a drummer playing at 250 out of the water.

[CVdrummer]

Have fun with that, I'll be over here, playing music.




hahahahhahahlololololol!! (is that twenty characters yet?)

[mattsmith]

Amen.

Goals are great. Speed goals are useful. They shouldn't be the only reason you play though.

I'd love to get my speed up, and sure I work at it, but it's not the reason why I will or won't be a great drummer. A drummer playing at 75 BPM can blow a drummer playing at 250 out of the water.

There are several drummers on this thread that I truly respect.

But...
Just curious...

Why is it implied that the mention of a speed goal means that the questioner has only one goal? For that matter why do 80% of all posters on drum forums foward this notion at every available opportunity, whether it's true or not?

As honestly as everyone responded to the initial question (no deceptions here), I am betting that few have even noticed that he never mentioned speed as an exclusive goal. It was just assumed as much because of this modern day brainwashed mantra that All speed is evil. And because it's evil, it obviously controls every minute of every young drummer's thoughts and actions. It's almost like we are supposed to mock speed just a bit to demonstrate our enlightenment, as misplaced as that may be.

Yes most certainly A drummer playing at 75 BPM can blow a drummer playing at 250 out of the water. But the opposite result can also be true. And quite often the person who blew the 250 guy out of the water, was a drummer who also had a 250 in his own pocket anyway.

People with endurance /a byproduct of truly fast drummers/ have lots of time to practice many things, because they're still going strong after others packed it in because they were sucking wind a half hour before.

Who after all are our totemic models?

Vinnie Colaiuta
Dave Weckl
Virgil Donoti
Dennis Chambers
...Buddy Rich

All speed demons

All purported versatile drummers who can/could also groove at will.

Yes, Gadd is on that list as well. But I find it interesting that groove cops will underestimate his speed to make what they think is the larger issue of his groove sell to the larger public.

Reverse the initial poster's question for a moment. Suppose he had stated that he/she wished for groove solidification and nothing else? Would that not have demonstrated nearsighted thinking as well? But chances are that 80% of that same drum forum would praise the poster's decision. They would call the poster enlightened and forward thinking. They would say keep up the good work and you'll go far.

On the other side of the spectrum, I wonder about how this brand new perception of skill exclusivity is producing a new generation of work ethic lazy, out of shape drummers, who are already dragging after 15 minutes, but think that by following this tact, that have assumed some kind of spiritual high road, that never existed in the first place.

Personally, I don't find much to say about any one dimensional drummer, regardless of what ignored dimension made him that way.

Like it or not, speed is at the very least a small to medium part of the package. Not to approach it at all is just as bad as any other form of neglect. Wouldn't it also be difficult to be dedicated even in small part to speed if you are always wondering if you shouldn't be doing something else?

I also read the posts of a lot of very nice, very talented people, on this board who say Yeah one of these days I'm going to work a little on my speed issues. But first I want to make my music.

Well, with all respect, some who say this are in their 30s and 40s.

So when exactly is it going to happen?

I think this is just as fair to ask as the other more popular thing.

[finnhiggins]

The thing is Matt, the person who started this thread had cited speed goals that were impossible without practice for at least the next decade to the exclusion of nearly anything else. They were "vast speed A, all rudiments" - ALL rudiments? What, like forty rudiments with the hands, forty rudiments with the feet, all up past 960 strokes/min with the hands and 900 strokes/min with the feet? How long did you spend on just getting your singles with the hands up into that kind of speed range? Do you have time to do that again with each of the remaining PAS rudiments (and then do the whole lot again with your feet) without having to exclude study of musical subjects?

So it's not unreasonable after that opening to expect the thread to become a lecture on not becoming a one-dimensional speed maniac, because in order to achieve their stated goal the original poster would have little chance of being anything else.

Speed goals are fine when you have a use for them. But to be honest, people who start threads saying "what are your speed goals" probably don't. I had a bunch of speed goals for a gig last year where I had things I had to play that I couldn't consistently do at the required tempo. The thing is, I just sat down and did the work, played the gig and then forgot about the issue entirely. I didn't see the need to set myself speed goals 40-50bpm in excess of what I might possibly need and then start forum threads about it.

People obsessing over speed goals remind me of all the get-rich-quick seminar junkies I've met (and trust me, I've met more than most) - they've all got these ludicrous goals like "Retire by age 30" or whatever. Then you get to talking to them and you realise that the last thing this person would ever want to do is actually achieve their goal, because it'd break them: they have no other interest in life other than achieving this goal, and if they ever actually got there then it would just vanish into the aether leaving them with nothing but an empty, boring existence. Money is a good thing to have - it opens a lot of doors. Ditto for speed, and technique as a whole. But if you chase any of them to the exclusion of a GOAL or PURPOSE then rarely do you do much of any importance in life.

The urge to drive a hard bargain is fine if you have something useful to do with all the money you accumulate, but if all you want it for is buying a big ugly house where you can hang your framed Playboy covers on the wall and conduct unspeakable acts with your gold-digging ex-stripper wife then really the question has to be asked as to what you're contributing to the world by bothering.

The thing is, people who drive a hard bargain in the pursuit of a goal generally want to talk more about their goal than they do about their bank balance. The ones who like to start conversations about their dollar-value net worth goals tend to be more as I've described above. I've generally found the same to be true of musicians - the ones who want to talk about a concept for a band they want to start are usually more interesting musicians than the ones who want to tell you about their speed goal for their bass drum double-stroke roll.

[mattsmith]

OK Finn...fair points all. Moreover, this sensitive rebuttal, using those points was fully expected and reasonable considering the tone of the original poster. And if you notice I too weighed in on the guy's unattainable goals.

I think you also know that I was lucky with speeds to begin with, in that I was already somewhat blessed with those skills. With that said, one does not harp on that because a lot of this black and white crowd you see on forums, thinks a few gifts up front means there was no work involved.

But, we do know what the issue really is here. And it goes a lot farther than the all sides of the spectrum you tried to cover. In most forums, all a person like me has to do is show up to get things started. Then, almost immediately, seminar talking points about speed appear on a hundred succeeding posts, and are repeated and repeated and repeated, as if to imply I, and many others had not shown the other case in a million different ways.

No, we really do have a new proclivity to deny and dismiss speed in all its forms from the bigger more enlightened picture. In fact, there has never been such animosity for this skill since the invention of the drum set. If anyone can prove this statement wrong I will be the first to accept my new smarter stance.

[wybasher]

The thing is Matt, the person who started this thread had cited speed goals that were impossible without practice for at least the next decade to the exclusion of nearly anything else. They were "vast speed A, all rudiments" - ALL rudiments? What, like forty rudiments with the hands, forty rudiments with the feet, all up past 960 strokes/min with the hands and 900 strokes/min with the feet? How long did you spend on just getting your singles with the hands up into that kind of speed range?
...


Just want to clarify something so some of the folks aren't scared off by the stats. 900 spm for single strokes is not that big a deal for average drummers with average twitch/reflex muscles. And it doesn't take 10 years of practice. If shown the proper efficient rebound technique (e.g. Derrick's videos may be a good place to start), a typical beginner could attain 900spm within months (6 - 12 months) if he's deliberately working on that goal. Now speeds of 1200+ spm like Mike Mangini is definitely beyond ordinary. He has a rare combination of innate physical gifts (born with perfect chromosomes DNA for the fastest twitch/reflex muscle fibers) and insane practice. But for the rest of us, 800-900 spm should not be alarming in the least. Let's recalibrate our expecations and not diminish what the normal human body is capable of doing!

But that's just regarding single strokes (and by extension double strokes) for the hands. Now the rest of the rudiments at 900 spm would be quite challenging. Evenly spaced flams at 900 spm? That would be tough. Strong accented triplets at 900 spm? Another toughie. This is where we (forum readers) get to exercise our experience & intelligence and assume that the OP was being too general (instead of nitpicking to death his "all rudiments" comment).

Anways, the context for most speed measurements is single strokes. Trying to execute the entire G Lawrence book "Stick Control" at 900 spm would be unrealistic.



...,
because in order to achieve their stated goal the original poster would have little chance of being anything else.


I think the key here is efficient practice and deliberately using the right technique that's specifically built for 700+ spm. If he practices using an "inefficient" technique (not fully exploiting rebound), then yes, he could take decades (or never?) to reach the higher spms---even though his muscles are perfectly capable of getting there.

So, when practicing correctly & efficiently, the average person will still have plenty of time to finish high school, get a job, get married, learn foreign language, and maybe even squeeze in a musical idea or two. Seriously!

But if you were speaking hyperbole, than ignore all of what I said above.


People obsessing over speed goals remind me of all the get-rich-quick seminar junkies I've met (and trust me, I've met more than most) - they've all got these ludicrous goals like "Retire by age 30" or whatever. Then you get to talking to them and you realise that the last thing this person would ever want to do is actually achieve their goal, because it'd break them: they have no other interest in life other than achieving this goal, and if they ever actually got there then it would just vanish into the aether leaving them with nothing but an empty, boring existence. Money is a good thing to have - it opens a lot of doors. Ditto for speed, and technique as a whole. But if you chase any of them to the exclusion of a GOAL or PURPOSE then rarely do you do much of any importance in life.


I'm going totally honest here: I've never met a single person on this planet that made speed their only goal. No joke. Not one person.

If you have, than either A) you didn't get to know that person very well or B) I need to get out of the bat cave more often. (Btw, I'm just Alfred the butler, not the spandex dude the drives the fancy car.)

Now if your mind works in such a way that it naturally equates speed goals to "get rich quick" schemes, then I say IMHO, that is an unhealthy way to look at it. A little harsh don't you think?

Irony: People say that drummers focused on "speed" are not looking at the big picture (groove + musicality + creativity + whatever). But the folks criticising speed goals are also not looking at the big picture of life ... and what the full spectrum of drumming actually is (and what enjoying drumming actually is)...and that people are different... and that tastes (musical or otherwise) can't be reduced down to neat little rules/guidelines/categories. I wonder if folks see the irony in this.

I think Jason Nutha's comment in the last speed thread already summed it up nicely. Everyone should read it again and reevaluate if they have a healthy or unhealthy attitude about all this.

[mattsmith]

Just want to clarify something so some of the folks aren't scared off by the stats. 900 spm for single strokes is not that big a deal for average drummers with average twitch/reflex muscles. And it doesn't take 10 years of practice. If shown the proper efficient rebound technique (e.g. Derrick's videos may be a good place to start), a typical beginner could attain 900spm within months (6 - 12 months) if he's deliberately working on that goal.
I appreciated much of the reasonable stance demonstrated in your post, and agreed with many of your points. But with respect, I have to say that nothing quoted above ^ ^ ^ has any basis in fact. And saying it authoritatively doesn't make it true, regardless of the sincerity. With this said, also recall that I have agreed with you previously on a similar thread. But we do part company on this.

I have probably met on the high side of 200 noncompetitive drummers who thought they were easily acquiring 1000 bpm, when in actuality only 2 really were. It is common for most drummers to believe that they are not just a little, but much faster than they actually are. It goes with the territory.

Now if your contention is that this gargantuan number of drummers can acquire 900s for a few seconds, then the argument holds more weight. However, if said speeds can not be attained for a long enough period for musical application and/or a contribution to the endurance factor, then their acquisition is of no consequence anyway.

It is also important to examine your statement if he's deliberately working on that goal. The fact is that most musicians don't work deliberately enough on anything, therefore negating much of the point to begin with.

But the part of your stance that remains the most refutable is a typical beginner could attain 900spm within months (6 - 12 months). I'm sorry, and I do not intend to disrespect, but you will have to prove this one. Besides, if the speed preventives are correct, and you are correct, then there would be upwards of a million 12 year old speed demon drummers playing in excess of extended 800s at least...and that's not even remotely happening.

[wybasher]

Now if your contention is that this gargantuan number of drummers can acquire 900s for a few seconds, then the argument holds more weight. However, if said speeds can not be attained for a long enough period for musical application and/or a contribution to the endurance factor, then their acquisition is of no consequence anyway.


I think the whole basis if your disagreement stems from my sloppy use of SPM instead of BPM ... but here goes my explanation....

Yes, sustaining the speeds for maybe 10 seconds. Certainly not a whole minute! Not competition level! Again, we have to refer back to the original context of the question. When the OP talked about BPMs, rudiments, and goals, I think it's safe to assume he's not talking about WFD. I believe in this thread, we're just talking about raw speed here and not endurance. Again, his initial numbers were nowhere near world-record levels so I just can't see how the context would be WFD endurance.

(I should have used BPM like the original poster did instead of diverting to SPM like some of the replies did. The term "SPM" makes you think we're diviing into legitimacy of WFD.)

Rest assured, the capabilities & accomplishments of all the WFD guys are still quite lofty and I'm not trying to diminish it in anyway. Besides, those guys are way beyond 900 spm so this discussion is not even in the same ball park. Nobody should feel defensive for something that wasn't attacked.


It is also important to examine your statement if he's deliberately working on that goal. The fact is that most musicians don't work deliberately enough on anything, therefore negating much of the point to begin with.


People aren't going to stumble onto 900 spm by accident. That's true. But part of this has to do with terminology above.

I'm trying to refute the myth that it takes 10+ years to do this. Did it really take you 10 years? You may have been "drumming" for more than 10 years but specifically working on getting fast takes 10 years?


But the part of your stance that remains the most refutable is a typical beginner could attain 900spm within months (6 - 12 months). I'm sorry, and I do not intend to disrespect, but you will have to prove this one. Besides, if the speed preventives are correct, and you are correct, then there would be upwards of a million 12 year old speed demon drummers playing in excess of extended 800s at least...and that's not even remotely happening.

A couple of things here... not all of the one million kids are deliberately working on speed. So that narrows it down some. (Unless you trying to say that 1 million is the filtered pool of kids from say 10 million of all 12-year olds).

[Notice I deliberately switched from SPM to BPM here...]
In any case, somewhere between 150 bpm and 300bpm, there's a threshold crossover point between typical human ability and rare genetic physical gifts. I don't know exactly where that magic # is but in my experience, that threshold is not 225 bpm! At 300 bpm (Mangini) is extreme yes. But labeling 225 bpm as supremely difficult would be an unnecessary mental barrier for anyone that's even thinking about trying it.

So 225 bpm is very achievable by typical people...
but 900 spm of endurance is very difficult...
and 300 bpm / 1200 spm is superhuman difficult


And finally, regarding the length of time needed to raw speed. In my opinion and experience, the standard advice of starting the metronome at 10 bpm and slowly increasing it (something like 5 bpm each week and regressing backward if there's a mistake) is not very effective. Since this is the most common advice, I can see why people think it will take 10 years to get any decent amount of speed.

Instead, I prefer dual speed slow/fast progressions. This goes against the grain of standard advice but I think slow/fast progressions are much more effective for getting your fast twitch muscles to respond. It also encourages relaxation so as not to grip the stick so tight and choke up the inherent speed that the stick already has. Yes, you still have to work at it, practice it, master it. But this approach seems to take better advantage of how your brain, nervous system, reflexes, and muscles actually work. A video could probably demonstrate this better than type 10 paragraphs of text would. Perhaps you could demonstrate this better than I could.

There may be an even better method than parallel slow/fast progressions but that's what I've used for working up speed on drums, guitar, and piano. Certainly better than the slow-1-bpm-a-week method. I've also used it successfully on things like learning a foreign language (Spanish). Again, I'm not trying to be the ultimate authority on speed workouts... there's no doubt an even better learning method, but I don't know what it is.

Anyways, the "increase the metronome 1 bpm at a time until it's perfect" is more like grandma's recipe book that's been around for generations and generations. Have people ever questioned that approach before? Today's generation has a much better understanding of physiology than before and that knowledge should be exploited for the best results in the least amount time.

So my theory why there aren't 1 million kids tapping away at 190 bpm:
1) they are shown bad fundamental technique (not using total rebound)
2) they are given the most inefficient training schedule possible



... upwards of a million 12 year old speed demon drummers playing in excess of extended 800s at least...and that's not even remotely happening.

My comments were not based on reality and percentages of today. My comments are about the possibilities of the typical human body. And to prevent the spread of discouragement about higher speeds.

Anways, I think time will prove all this out. Over the next 5 to 50 years, more kids will get exposed to better teaching methods. The percentage of drummers that can crank out 190bpm will steadily increase. You probably see these speed trends happening at WFD already.

[finnhiggins]

wybasher, I can only say here that my response to the OP was based on what they actually wrote - all rudiments. Even the most conservative interpretation of that would have that as singles, doubles and paradiddles. Getting your paradiddles with your feet up to the 225bpm range is going to be shockingly hard to do. What's the WFD paradiddle record with hands? A little over a thousand or something?

As for the assertion that there are no players out there who focus solely on speed, you're probably right on that. But with that said, there are plenty of players who set their musical goals BASED on speed - see all the metal threads where people argue over which metal drummer plays fastest in a song context, etc etc. Who cares? As far as I can tell, only people with no ideas whatsoever.

I've spent a bit of time lately judging a drum solo contest, so I've had a reasonable exposure to what's going on out there. There's a huge number of totally amusical guys with horrible tone, terrible ideas, inability to phrase in patterns longer or shorter than two beats, no ability to play outside of 4/4 or phrase across bar lines, etc etc... yet who are BLAZINGLY fast, much faster than me. If you try to tell me those people don't exist I'll just laugh at you, because they're all over every drum forum fighting over whether George Kollias has faster feet than Tim Waterson.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I've spent a bit of time lately judging a drum solo contest, so I've had a reasonable exposure to what's going on out there. There's a huge number of totally amusical guys with horrible tone, terrible ideas, inability to phrase in patterns longer or shorter than two beats, no ability to play outside of 4/4 or phrase across bar lines, etc etc... yet who are BLAZINGLY fast, much faster than me. If you try to tell me those people don't exist I'll just laugh at you, because they're all over every drum forum fighting over whether George Kollias has faster feet than Tim Waterson.


So true, I beat a guy at a Sam Ash drum solo contest last year who was at least 20-30 clicks faster than me all around. He started fast and ended fast and we were all bored after 15 seconds.

I play in a metal band and EVERY 16 year old aspiring metal drummer asks me how fast I can play, To say that these kids are not obsessed with speed is crazy.

[wybasher]

wybasher, I can only say here that my response to the OP was based on what they actually wrote - all rudiments. Even the most conservative interpretation of that would have that as singles, doubles and paradiddles. Getting your paradiddles with your feet up to the 225bpm range is going to be shockingly hard to do. ...


I agree. I guess I was too casual about "rudiments". Does it mean the everything on the 40-rudiments poster? Or everything out the "Stick Control" book? Or Chapin's book? Or "rudiments" simply mean doing a little more than hitting the backbeat on 2 & 4. "Rudiments" is such an imprecise term.



...
But with that said, there are plenty of players who set their musical goals BASED on speed - see all the metal threads where people argue over which metal drummer plays fastest in a song context, etc etc. Who cares? As far as I can tell, only people with no ideas whatsoever.


I totally understand where you're coming from but I still say you're misplacing cause & effect. In my opinion, you're not taking into account the inherent personalities of the people involved. The people that have "no ideas whatsoever" are that way regardless of speed, regardless of equipment, and regardless of which teacher they have. That is probably a fundamental difference between how you and I look at this situation. You think that "speed" is a zero-sum-game and that it takes away from musicality. But I think the musical drummers will be musical regardless of speed, and the non-musical guys will always be non-musical and they'd argue about something else if there wasn't speed to argue about ---> "hey, Mike Portnoy's cymbals are bigger and shinier than Neil Peart's cymbals blah blah blah". Telling a non-musical drummer to NOT focus on speed is like telling a heterosexual man to act like a woman.

With that said, if the non-musical drummers are having a lot of fun (after all, drumming can be a intense physical activity), then by all means go for it. Break some records. Life is short... be barnburner.



I've spent a bit of time lately judging a drum solo contest, so I've had a reasonable exposure to what's going on out there. There's a huge number of totally amusical guys with horrible tone, terrible ideas, inability to phrase in patterns longer or shorter than two beats, no ability to play outside of 4/4 or phrase across bar lines, etc etc... yet who are BLAZINGLY fast, much faster than me. If you try to tell me those people don't exist I'll just laugh at you, because they're all over every drum forum fighting over whether George Kollias has faster feet than Tim Waterson.

Sure, those guys exist. But I have different criteria for criticizing them: are they happy with what they're doing... are they having fun? Musicality is a distant 2nd in this. I realize that for a drumoff competition, the opposite is true: their originality and composition is the most important thing and having fun with a big smile on the face doesn't matter. But that's in the context of a formal competition. In the context of life, musicality is quite overrated for some folks.

[mattsmith]

=wybasher]Rest assured, the capabilities & accomplishments of all the WFD guys are still quite lofty and I'm not trying to diminish it in anyway. Besides, those guys are way beyond 900 spm so this discussion is not even in the same ball park. Nobody should feel defensive for something that wasn't attacked.
No one made or implied such an assertion. No attempts at mind reading please.

I'm trying to refute the myth that it takes 10+ years to do this.
This assertion has basis in fact, and helps alleviate what I believe is a myth.

A couple of things here... not all of the one million kids are deliberately working on speed.
I don't believe so either. I was playing on the common stereotype. Actually I think this number only appears larger because most of the competitive extroverts who post in drum forums are this way.

So that narrows it down some. (Unless you trying to say that 1 million is the filtered pool of kids from say 10 million of all 12-year olds).
No I'm talking more in world wide terms, where there are far more 12 year olds than that.

But labeling 225 bpm as supremely difficult would be an unnecessary mental barrier for anyone that's even thinking about trying it.
I contend supremely difficult for a beginner, which is more in line with your most provocative point.

And finally, regarding the length of time needed to raw speed. In my opinion and experience, the standard advice of starting the metronome at 10 bpm and slowly increasing it (something like 5 bpm each week and regressing backward if there's a mistake) is not very effective. Since this is the most common advice, I can see why people think it will take 10 years to get any decent amount of speed.
Agreed. I think people push this one to stereotype those with high speeds as robots, who spend day and night for years doing only this. This makes detractors feel better about their suspect little bit of everything, not enough of anything approach.

Instead, I prefer dual speed slow/fast progressions. This goes against the grain of standard advice but I think slow/fast progressions are much more effective for getting your fast twitch muscles to respond. It also encourages relaxation so as not to grip the stick so tight and choke up the inherent speed that the stick already has.
This is my method, and I believe with its validity and obvious results.

Anways, I think time will prove all this out. Over the next 5 to 50 years, more kids will get exposed to better teaching methods. The percentage of drummers that can crank out 190bpm will steadily increase. You probably see these speed trends happening at WFD already.
Although I believe this, I remain confused as to why it appears that speeds have peaked in competitive situations. Even my 1100s, which you would think regularly attainable on this level, represented the first time in over 3 years by a new guy. Based on recent competition speeds, I think the Mangini match grip record is going to stand for a long time. And if it is passed, it won't be by much. Tim Waterson's foot record, which is now almost five years old, demonstrates the same durability. Traditional grip on the other hand is a different matter. That record will most likely be topped sooner than later, although I remain surprised that Mangini's 1126 has been around as long as it has.

Wybasher, you are a very smart guy who argues respectfully. Are you an educator? Do you have demonstrations of your own playing?

I continue to appreciate posters on Drummerworld, for their willingness to discuss this subject intelligently. In fact this is the only forum where the subject isn't immediately shouted down by mindless trolls with no argument. I also think it's strange that so many other forums call this one a WFD lovers forum, simply because the other points of view are allowed examination. Oh well...

[wybasher]

Although I believe this, I remain confused as to why it appears that speeds have peaked in competitive situations. Even my 1100s, which you would think regularly attainable on this level, represented the first time in over 3 years by a new guy. Based on recent competition speeds, I think the Mangini match grip record is going to stand for a long time. And if it is passed, it won't be by much. Tim Waterson's foot record, which is now almost five years old, demonstrates the same durability. Traditional grip on the other hand is a different matter. That record will most likely be topped sooner than later, although I remain surprised that Mangini's 1126 has been around as long as it has.


I’ve never seen a WFD so I don’t know the pulse of the whole event. My guess about the speed plateau would be the effort/reward ratio. There’s no Ferrarri waiting and the end of the rainbow for the WFD winner. So bragging rights (and some publicity) may not be enough of an enticement to get more drummers to push the boundaries. Unlike pro sports (baseball, football, etc) with multi-million dollar contracts hanging in the balance --- that type of incentive leads to training through injury, painkillers, illegal steroids, and lots of desperate measures to stay viable in the league. I’d have to think about this more to understand why more records aren’t being broken on a monthly basis.



...
Are you an educator? Do you have demonstrations of your own playing?


My playing doesn’t have any speed or tricks that people haven’t seen/heard before. Probably one unusual thing is that I play both left-hand and right-hand kits. (I’m not ambidextrous but enjoy the “symmetrical” balance of playing both orientations every day.) From a layman’s perspective, another obvious thing people might notice is that I do a ton of backsticking. Way more than average--- I do it a lot on hihats, snare, and even the toms. This habit arose out of trying to get more sounds out of my traditional grip ---> I often liked to start my fills with the butt of the stick (meatier sound) but finish the same lick with the regular tip. The by-product of this is a zillion stick rotations through one song. I don’t have any recordings online yet but I just got some drum mics so looking forward to putting some compositions out. I try to put that intangible “groove” in the songs so someone like FinnHiggins might find something worthwhile in it.

I’m not an educator but just someone who is intensely curious about the limits of the human body. For me, the breakthrough was studying linguistics. I was able to apply a lot of the ideas about how young children learn to speak naturally. I reused these ideas on multiple instruments and even applied it to diverse physical activities such as learning how to ski. I’ve been thinking about writing a book (or producing a DVD) on my observations but not sure if it’s worth the effort (or if the information has already been duplicated by others.)

Roughly speaking (for the scope of this discussion), there are 2 kinds of muscle movement: strength vs coordination. Doing single strokes is more of a coordination skill than a strength skill. You can’t “muscle” your single strokes to 200bpm. Trying to purely muscle your single strokes will put people at a plateau of maybe 150bpm. On the other hand, doing a benchpress is a strength skill. Sure, this distinction seems obvious and yet people try to apply “strength type training” to improve a coordination skill. It’s a mismatch of training techniques, which leads to slow results and frustration. For benchpress example, to improve the poundage (or kilos for Europeans), you lift some amount of weight with clean motion. After that, you add on some incremental weight slowly and repeat this cycle. This incremental cycle works great for strength (lifting, pushing, jumping, etc). Unfortunately, the “incremental approach” is reapplied to drumming and piano playing as “start at 10 bpm and slowly increase blah blah”. However, coordination (or reflexes) seem to respond better to parallel slow/fast exercises.

But an interesting thing is, the majority of the fast players seem to get fast without thinking about all the academic distinctions I’ve mentioned… they simply stumble on to what works for them. I only mention my academic observations for those that are curious in setting a speed goal (like 225 bpm) but are discouraged that it’s too monumental a task to tackle. Yes, there’s also “musical goals”, and I could babble on for another 10 pages about that… but that discussion is better suited in a songwriting forum.



I continue to appreciate posters on Drummerworld, for their willingness to discuss this subject intelligently. In fact this is the only forum where the subject isn't immediately shouted down by mindless trolls with no argument. ...

I think credit should be given where it's due... the moderators here (Bernhard, DB, NJ) keep these type of arguments reasonble. Wow, I just read the "small kit vs big kit" debate. Golly, do I also have an opinion on that! But I'm gonna stay away.

[mattsmith]

I’ve never seen a WFD so I don’t know the pulse of the whole event. My guess about the speed plateau would be the effort/reward ratio. There’s no Ferrarri waiting and the end of the rainbow for the WFD winner. So bragging rights (and some publicity) may not be enough of an enticement to get more drummers to push the boundaries.
Oh there's a lot more involved than just bragging rights... believe it. I have won a garage full of stuff, and have far more name rec than somebody with my current abilities should have. Mangini's distinction as the world's most requested drum clinician comes from one thing and one thing alone.

My playing doesn’t have any speed or tricks that people haven’t seen/heard before.
Again my thoughts were not based on speed issues. But usually smart people play smart, leading me to assume you are a smart player. Please post if you have stuff.

I’m not an educator but just someone who is intensely curious about the limits of the human body. For me, the breakthrough was studying linguistics. I was able to apply a lot of the ideas about how young children learn to speak naturally. I reused these ideas on multiple instruments and even applied it to diverse physical activities such as learning how to ski. I’ve been thinking about writing a book (or producing a DVD) on my observations but not sure if it’s worth the effort (or if the information has already been duplicated by others.)
I think many people would be interested in your observations.

But an interesting thing is, the majority of the fast players seem to get fast without thinking about all the academic distinctions I’ve mentioned… they simply stumble on to what works for them.
That would be true of someone like me, but untrue of Mangini and Tim Waterson.

Wow, I just read the "small kit vs big kit" debate. Golly, do I also have an opinion on that! But I'm gonna stay away.
No you should go there. I think I can assume where you probably stand based on your other thoughts.

[T-1000]

Dudes, Matt? Wybasher? How does this slow/fast progression system thing work - I'm very interested...

Do you mean you go as fast as you can for one day, then slow it right down the next? Or do bursts of speed while playing slowly?

[wybasher]

Dudes, Matt? Wybasher? How does this slow/fast progression system thing work - I'm very interested...


This concept actually has been hinted at before in these forums... but it wasn't called "slow/fast progression". That's just the terminology I use because I'm not aware of a universal label for it.

Anyways, I don't know what mattsmith does so I can't speak for everyone. The following answers are in the context of what I do...



Do you mean you go as fast as you can for one day, then slow it right down the next?


No. The separation of 24 hours between slow & fast doesn't seem to be helpful (to me).


Or do bursts of speed while playing slowly?

This idea is more like the what I do. I actually first got exposed to this learning method on guitar.

A basic exercise might be 2 groups slow and 4 groups fast and would look like this:
x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)

It's also very important to do odd-strokes (5s or 9s, 11s, etc) like this:

x x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)

There are two ways of "progressing" through the exercise. One way of course is adjusting the tempo up. The other progression is adjusting the "ratio" between slow and fast. For example, when you're starting out, you may do 6 slow groups and 2 fast groups. You then work up enough proficiency and relaxation to do 1 slow group and 7 fast groups and eventually 0 slow groups and 8 fast groups. The idea is that constantly changing speed is good for the brain and which in turn, good for the arms,wrists,fingers. Of course, you can always do "alternating" groups, slow/fast/slow/fast etc.

You want to set your tempo so that your "fast" groups are on what I might call, "the edge of sloppiness". You tease your brain with the prospect of "perfect execution" of the fast groups and you give it gradual "reward" by adjusting the ratios upward. With that, I've basically summed up a key idea of effective practice: playing mind games with yourself! That's one of the major problems with the classical "increase 1 bpm slowly until perfection" advice... it doesn't dish out enough "reward" for the brain---you get bored easily---hence very slow results.

When I show this to someone in person, there's some more subtleties I can easily demonstrate but the description above is the basic idea of it.

My apologies to folks who may have thought this was some kind of magic technique. It really is that simple. It still requires work, practice, discipline. But for me, it gets faster results than the "increase metronome 1 bpm a week".

There's another "slow/fast" concept where you simultaneously practice at fast performance tempo (without perfect execution) and at the slower practice tempo (with perfect execution) and have the tempos eventually meet in the middle. This is one of the ideas I got from linguistics.

Couple of points:

Do not take the above literally as some "perfect" recipe. Everyone is different. Some folks may prefer 3 speed categories instead of just 2... "slow, medium, fast" (or 8ths, 16ths, 32nds) and incorporate that into their practice. Do whatever variety it takes to keep your brain engaged. Customize it to how your body works.

Finally, to put this "slow/fast" thing all in perspective: It's not the single silver bullet. This is just one of 5 major training techniques that I used to get speed up. I'll explain the other 4 (odd stroke groupings, weak hand dexterity, etc) in another posting.

That's it... if other people have different ideas, I'd like to hear them. Like I said before, I think there are better learning methods out there, but I don't know what they are. And I'm not going to know what they are unless we all share!

[Jeff Almeyda]

Interesting. I'll give it a shot for a few weeks and let you know how I make out with it.

This reminds me of a double bass speed exercise in which you play 2 measures of sixteenths followed by 2 measures of 16th triplets. I've always found that I was able to push the tempos higher on the triplets after I did the 16ths.

[wybasher]

This reminds me of a double bass speed exercise in which you play 2 measures of sixteenths followed by 2 measures of 16th triplets.


Yep, same idea. As I mentioned before, it's not an original idea.


I've always found that I was able to push the tempos higher on the triplets after I did the 16ths.

I'm not surprised at all at this observation.

There are at least 2 things happening here:

1) Pyschological aspect: You alternate between intervals of "I can do this" (the 16th note bars) and intervals of "I can almost do this" (the 16th triplet bars). The human brain seems to respond better to this type of stimulus.

2) Physical aspect: you're priming your muscles (via the 16th note bars) for a burst of velocity (16th note triplet)

Both seem to work together to get faster results. Eventually, you don't need the "I can do this" or the "musicle priming" as training wheels.... you can just execute the upper velocity at will.

[n2xlr8n]

Great info, wybasher. I think this is what Ian Ballard has posted about in the past.

I'll blend this with the method learned from the Stick Control thread.

Thanks!

S.

[daddyyabjee]

Have fun with that, I'll be over here, playing music.

So will I. This is different, though.

[daddyyabjee]

Okay, everyone's either taken this the wrong way, or I've posted it using the wrong wording.

What I meant was:
240BPM hands (16th-note single stroke rolls)
225BPM feet (16th-notes)

And no, I'm not forsaking making good music - I'm just saying, as an ultimate goal, to be able to play all the above rudiments at that speed.

Cheers.

[daddyyabjee]

I am playing music. I meant to say that I would like to achieve 240BPM in 16th-note single strokes (hands) and 225BPM in 16th-notes with feet.

[d.c.drummer]

I would like to be able to play like Weckle or Chambers, however fast that is.

[RudimentalDrummer]

Yes most certainly A drummer playing at 75 BPM can blow a drummer playing at 250 out of the water. But the opposite result can also be true. And quite often the person who blew the 250 guy out of the water, was a drummer who also had a 250 in his own pocket anyway.



I believed so too.

Just curious matt - how long did it actually took you (from the beginning practicing Single-Stroke) to where you have finally develop SPEED say at 200...Was it Years, or months...If years - How many?....and how many hours per day do you actually have to put into practice on Singles during those times. One more thing - you're using Moeller Techniques?.............Just wanna know as I'm lately doing alot of practice to increase my single-stroke speed - kindly let me have an idea....thanks

[math_metal_182]

When are you going to play some music? Will you be "good enough" only after you can play flam double paradiddles or triple ratamacues with your feet at a thousand miles an hour?

I'm sure if Buddy Rich, and all those other jazz greats were still alive they would be horrified with the technical prowess (or lack thereof) of modern drummers. Frankly, yes, you should be able to play all rudiments at any tempo you choose, and if you can't you simply are not fit to jam with a band, do studio work, or play anything even approaching music.

What happened to the good old days where you were forced to practice only with 2 pads (one for the hands, one for the feet) for about 40 years until you were let loose on the kit. I've been playing for 21 years, and still haven't progressed from pad to kit.

[NUTHA JASON]

Frankly, yes, you should be able to play all rudiments at any tempo you choose, and if you can't you simply are not fit to jam with a band, do studio work, or play anything even approaching music.

What happened to the good old days where you were forced to practice only with 2 pads (one for the hands, one for the feet) for about 40 years until you were let loose on the kit. I've been playing for 21 years, and still haven't progressed from pad to kit.

c'mon. you are NOT serious are you?

[Chip]

c'mon. you are NOT serious are you?

He's the same guy that smashed his DW to pieces with an axe and took to his Paistes with a chainsaw 'cos he sucked at double pedal (from memory). Of course he is!

[Jeff Almeyda]

I'm sure if Buddy Rich, and all those other jazz greats were still alive they would be horrified with the technical prowess (or lack thereof) of modern drummers. Frankly, yes, you should be able to play all rudiments at any tempo you choose, and if you can't you simply are not fit to jam with a band, do studio work, or play anything even approaching music.

What happened to the good old days where you were forced to practice only with 2 pads (one for the hands, one for the feet) for about 40 years until you were let loose on the kit. I've been playing for 21 years, and still haven't progressed from pad to kit.

Whatever, bro.

I love people that wax poetic about the "good old days". Do you mean those days when blacks were forced to sit in the back of the bus and women were kept barefoot and pregnant? Those days were good for the white male and that's about it.

You're either joking or are simply out of your mind and out of touch with the goal of music.

Music is about communicating an emotion. Elvin Jones did it with a helluva lot less chops than Buddy did. Are you going to tell us that Elvin needed to pay more "chops dues" before he was allowed to play with Coltrane?

Also, I think Buddy would be knocked out of his seat by the technical prowess of someone like Thomas Lang or Vinnie Colaiuta. Bellson and Chapin are two living old cats who know that the bar has been raised. Go ask them.

[low-tech]

I'm sure if Buddy Rich, and all those other jazz greats were still alive they would be horrified with the technical prowess (or lack thereof) of modern drummers. Frankly, yes, you should be able to play all rudiments at any tempo you choose, and if you can't you simply are not fit to jam with a band, do studio work, or play anything even approaching music.

What happened to the good old days where you were forced to practice only with 2 pads (one for the hands, one for the feet) for about 40 years until you were let loose on the kit. I've been playing for 21 years, and still haven't progressed from pad to kit.



a part of learning is playing live,jamming and being around other instruments. we learn in incriments by experience. we learn by mistakes, we learn by taking risks, all things that cannot be done from behind a pad.

this sounds like a self-defeating standard to live up to, take what you say about drumming to anything in life. all practice....no experience.

its like learning karate for 20 years without ever getting in a competition to actually test out the skills you learn under pressure. 20 years of hitting boards and bricks and drilling techniques against a willing<soft>opponent.

we all have different definitions of "musicallity" and "groove", ones that suit the music we focus on and enjoy listening to moreso than something everyone can identify and agree upon. i feel NO NEED to fit buddy rich's impossibly high standards he held everyone to, even himself..........he was never satisfied with his own playing,mind you. this is part of his personallity that alot of folks couldnt stand.


realistic goals, goals that exist for self-satisfaction and personal enjoyment for playing drums, NOT STATUS QUO<this is if you are not in some drum academy or music school, then its understandable,learning rudiments is part of the instruction>. you need a gameplan that encourages progress, not trying to drill a triple stroke roll at 300bpms in utter fustration...over and over again. some advanced rudiments may not be important right now for you and me while other more simple and pressing issues are probably more important to give the time to address.

confidence, real world experience from which to apply your learning. i know plenty of drummers who dont feel the need to even learn most rudiments who have been in great bands, great releases and great live shows DOING WHAT THEY WANT. it may be simple music, but.....that was the goal, and they execute every time because they are comfortable doing it.

this is my biggest problem.....i get stage fright, i tense up, i get self-doubt........resolving these issues is way more important than any rudiment at any tempo. so me behind a pad for decades never feeling worthy of the title "drummer" isnt gonna change that fact no matter how huge and fast my arsenal of chops become.

[SickRick]

My ultimate speed goal is 408 km/h. I will reach it using this car:

[SickRick]

Before you ask: Yeah, I am a rich guy. My second car is a Porsche GT3.

[HardcoreLogo]

I'm sure if Buddy Rich, and all those other jazz greats were still alive they would be horrified with the technical prowess (or lack thereof) of modern drummers. Frankly, yes, you should be able to play all rudiments at any tempo you choose, and if you can't you simply are not fit to jam with a band, do studio work, or play anything even approaching music.

What happened to the good old days where you were forced to practice only with 2 pads (one for the hands, one for the feet) for about 40 years until you were let loose on the kit. I've been playing for 21 years, and still haven't progressed from pad to kit.
YA, ok..........I'll pass that on to Dave and Vinnie.........I think it's great to to have a healthy attitude towards technique, but if your gonna wait till your pataflafla's and triple ratamacues are as fast as Buddy's singles, you'll never get to the drumset, I mean we could wright 4 more pages on why the mechanics behind these rudiments just won't allow for that type of speed, let alone the fact that fast rudiments does not equal great drumming.......I think every decent drummer should strive to meet a certain standard of technical prowess, but part of the learning prosses is accepting certain limitations and staying realistic about your goals........PLAY MUSIC!!!

[mattsmith]

One thing about math_metal_182's tirade I peripherally agree with, regards his thoughts on modern day drummers. In my own estimation, I think there were more great musician drummers back in the old days. I mean I look at my own heroes, and most of them are dead.

But from the perspective of technical prowess, there are more clean technical drummers today than there were even 20 years ago. As for Buddy Rich, his own obsessions would have kept him on the top of that chain, because he would have simply figured out a way to do so. But if he were to rise from the dead now, he would certainly feel the pressure, but he would also fix the problem...although he would absolutely continue to say publicly that he believed in the inferiority of modern day drummers. Of course none of us can look into a crystal ball, but that's my take on it.

Personally I believe that math_metal_182 entered this thread for other reasons. But we can save that debate for another time.

Hi Rudimental...as I have said before, I practice a maximum of 30-40 minutes a day on speed issues, if at all. To me anything more than that is an obsession. But again...That's just my take.

[philiprst]

Personally I would love to be able to play a groove at 30bpm. Somewhere below 55bpm my brain engages and things start to go all pear shaped.

[NUTHA JASON]

if mathmetal isn't joking i would point out to him that buddy rich claimed he never practiced. he advised that one should play the drums in a band in order to become a better drummer.

warning to all: if you practice only with 2 pads (one for the hands, one for the feet) for about 40 years before getting on a kit THEN you will become an exceedingly good drum practice pad player. as for a kit player you will probably suck. don't believe me? watch billy ward's big time DVD. 80% of what that guy does cannot be learned on a pad. billy extracts sound out of an accoustic kit.

but then who knows. maybe there is going to be a market for rubber pad session drummers in 40 years time...now i'm joking.

j

[low-tech]

Personally I would love to be able to play a groove at 30bpm. Somewhere below 55bpm my brain engages and things start to go all pear shaped.


my band does a few songs/changes that are in the 30bpm range, very hard.

practicing tempos like that helps your overall timekeeping.

[NUTHA JASON]

to play at extreemly low tempos start by developing silent time keeping mechanisms. this can be waving the right stick in the air above the hat or hitting your left heel softly in subdivisions of the pulse on the foot plate. for more on this see billy ward's big time DVD.

j

[Auger]

see billy ward's big time DVD.


I'll second that -that DVD's great stuff all around, but Mechanisms are such a great, great, concept for timekeeping.

anyway, to chime in again on this one, I guess it really doesn't bother me if someone wants to get so deeply into speed and technique. Whatever floats your boat, right?

I mean, drums mean something different to everyone and your approach to the instrument is shaped largely by who you are. Here's my take:

Some people are ego driven: I don't mean this in a negative way: I think there's nothing wrong with this and I think a lot of the greats were this way. I think, and this is just my opinion, that this is what it is to want to be a "good or great drummer" as a primary aspiration. I think this is where a lot of speed goals/extreme technique stuff comes from -it's something that can be used to quantify 'good' and then achieve it. But it maifests in drummers in lots of other ways too. Not all ego driven guys are or aspire to be 'extreme technique' players. It's more about one's primary motivation being "to be good"

Some people are art-driven: These are people who just want to express themselves and say something -and may not necessicarily care how they achieve this. Some of these people have a lot of technique and some have very little, but they don't feel that their technique validates them as a 'good drummer or not so good' -nor do they really care. These people don't see being a good drummer as an end goal -they see expressing themselves as their true motivation.

Some people are music driven. Basically music afficinados who want to participate in this thing they're so passionate about and just ended up drumming for whatever reason. They like the music more than the drums.

Some people aren't really driven at all, they just love drums and want to have fun.

Most people are a mix of all of these things, in my opinion -I know I am.

I think that's one of the things that so cool about drums -or any musical instrument or art form, really. More than anything a drumset is a mirror that reflects whoever walks up to it. the same drumset looks like completely different things to different people.

...and I'm still holding out for A440 in single strokes on my snare drum.

[mattsmith]

Some people are ego driven: Some people are art-driven: Some people are music driven.
I don't see these as mutually exclusive. I believe that all great musicians without exception have been all three, and you can't acheive the pinnacle unless you are this way.

[Auger]

I don't see these as mutually exclusive. I believe that all great musicians without exception have been all three, and you can't acheive the pinnacle unless you are this way.


Sure -I agree!

The next line in my last post was about how I think most people are a mix of all of these things.

I think, however, the mix is different for each of us -some are more of one thing, less of the others. I dunno, just the nonsense I think about while I'm not preocupied with my day-job, hahaha...

[Ian Ballard]

Yanno, this thread has made me evaluate myself a little. I suppose I don't worry so much about being the fastest drummer in the world like I did when I was 17. Now it comes purely from my musical ideas that I want to make happen using the drum set. Sometimes extremely dense segments of music require some blazin' singles and doubles... but I don't think in terms of "is this as fast as I can go?" terms, but more like "can I pull off this wacked- out thing in my head?".

I'm a broken record, but I am adamant about mastering the rhythm scale and being able to play in terms of note frequency (notes per beat) and not worry about "BPM's". A musical composition usually has very few tempos... sometimes just one. However it's more important to be able to play any rate or frequency of notes to suit the melodic and rhythmic necessities of the piece. If you can pull off 17's at 60 BPM... that's 1020 "strokes per minute".

That's a lot!

[DreamTheater4life]

Hands:3562189 beats per milisecond

Feet: same

one-up............

http://www.bosticman.com/bostic/audio/derek250.mp3

[low-tech]

http://www.bosticman.com/bostic/audio/derek250.mp3


man, i was joking.

good playing by the way.

but now you must feel the wrath of my groovy groove

[DreamTheater4life]

man, i was joking.

good playing by the way.

but now you must feel the wrath of my groovy groove

all i heard was BUZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! at like a million bpm. sounded programmed also :-p

Edit: o and by the way I have another one, from a guy named GEORGE FREAKING KOLLIAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.bosticman.com/bostic/audio/george250.mp3

[low-tech]

all i heard was BUZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! at like a million bpm. sounded programmed also :-p

Edit: o and by the way I have another one, from a guy named GEORGE FREAKING KOLLIAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.bosticman.com/bostic/audio/george250.mp3

that was low-tech laying it down, i take it you didnt hear all the polyrhythm ghostnotes in there.....i thought so

you honestly accuse me of programming that, how dare you stoop so low, ive never been so offended in my life. thats just my groove-work too

you should see me with my game face on.

[mattsmith]

all i heard was BUZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! at like a million bpm. sounded programmed also :-p

Hmmmm, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

See low-tech, when a Roddy audio is played, you're just supposed to lay down like they do over at his site. Didn't you know? (lol).

Seriously Bostic, if this you...great to have you in on this discussion. I didn't even know you posted here.

[DreamTheater4life]

Hmmmm, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

See low-tech, when a Roddy audio is played, you're just supposed to lay down like they do over at his site. Didn't you know? (lol).

Seriously Bostic, if this you...great to have you in on this discussion. I didn't even know you posted here.

Nah this ain't Bostic, this is Mikec. from the Roddy forums. Bostic is a cool guy though. but not as cool as me ;-)

[Jeff Almeyda]

all i heard was BUZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! at like a million bpm. sounded programmed also :-p

Edit: o and by the way I have another one, from a guy named GEORGE FREAKING KOLLIAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.bosticman.com/bostic/audio/george250.mp3


What is the point of your post? I know that Kollias is one bad mother. We were talking specifically here about all rudiments not just singles.

I am very impressed by the speed of guys like Roddy and George but their feet are nowhere near Lang's. Yeah, their top speed is a little higher but that's all they do. Lang can play any rudiment with his feet. ( For example: Lang can play flam triplets with his feet while laying down flam accents with his hands all at blinding speeds.) His doubles are powerful whereas Roddy and George don't/can't even play 'em. Lang can play heel down or up. He plays accented patterns with his feet IN GROOVES!!!

In other words, Lang has applied his speed to more things than just a straightforward roll.

Maybe you should check out guys like Thomas, Grant Collins and Virgil. It might force you to reconsider your opinion of the state of the art in double kick.

Oh, excuse me. I forgot the proper format...

Maybe you should check out THOMAS FREAKIN' LANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! before you come in screaming about the latest fast metal guy.

[n2xlr8n]

This concept actually has been hinted at before in these forums... but it wasn't called "slow/fast progression". That's just the terminology I use because I'm not aware of a universal label for it.

Anyways, I don't know what mattsmith does so I can't speak for everyone. The following answers are in the context of what I do...

A basic exercise might be 2 groups slow and 4 groups fast and would look like this:
x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)

It's also very important to do odd-strokes (5s or 9s, 11s, etc) like this:

x x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)

There are two ways of "progressing" through the exercise. One way of course is adjusting the tempo up. The other progression is adjusting the "ratio" between slow and fast.

You want to set your tempo so that your "fast" groups are on what I might call, "the edge of sloppiness". You tease your brain with the prospect of "perfect execution" of the fast groups and you give it gradual "reward" by adjusting the ratios upward.

There's another "slow/fast" concept where you simultaneously practice at fast performance tempo (without perfect execution) and at the slower practice tempo (with perfect execution) and have the tempos eventually meet in the middle. This is one of the ideas I got from linguistics.

This is just one of 5 major training techniques that I used to get speed up. I'll explain the other 4 (odd stroke groupings, weak hand dexterity, etc) in another posting.




I'd like to hear the remaining four, please.

I've been practicing Stick Control for the last couple of months, followed by your (and Ian Ballards') recommendation. Ians' method of progression from 16ths to 16th triplets is very difficult for me, though. I'm not "feeling" the pulse at that tempo.

Any helpful ideas? Would you please share your other four techniques for us?

Thank you!

S.

[cwignall]

Hey, it's not easy. I can just about do 30bpm now, but fifteen is going to take a lot of work.. and a new metronome!

not sure if this is me being ignorant but isnt 30 beats a minute rather easy? is it not just 1 every 2 seconds?

[Wavelength]

Not sure if this is me being ignorant, but isn't 30 beats per minute rather easy? Is it not just one stroke every two seconds?

That's correct, one stroke every other second. However, nailing those strokes on the money and keeping the tempo consistent is extremely difficult. Just try it out and you'll see for yourself.

[Jeff Almeyda]

not sure if this is me being ignorant but isnt 30 beats a minute rather easy? is it not just 1 every 2 seconds?

In tune with what wavelength said: Try setting your click to 30 (if it goes that slow) and play singles at that tempo. You may be shocked at how uneven you sound or how quickly you lose your form or get tired. The long time between each note gives you plenty of chances to screw up.

I didn't believe it as a kid until I tried it. It's pretty humbling.

[jiltednut]

Ok, i was skeptical about slow tempos so I tried 30 and 15bpm in that order.
30bpm is tricky, I was a bit off playing on each pulse ( thats 1/4's i think ), but after a few bars of 1/8ths I pretty much locked in, with some small mistakes but nothing too far off.

15bpm is IMPOSSIBLE, couldn't get the tempo at all, don't think I was locked in for more than 2 pulses at a time. This is a real eye opener, high tempos are easy in comparison, looks like theres another thing to practice!!

[Legacyrik]

What is the point of your post? I know that Kollias is one bad mother. We were talking specifically here about all rudiments not just singles.

I am very impressed by the speed of guys like Roddy and George but their feet are nowhere near Lang's. Yeah, their top speed is a little higher but that's all they do. Lang can play any rudiment with his feet. ( For example: Lang can play flam triplets with his feet while laying down flam accents with his hands all at blinding speeds.) His doubles are powerful whereas Roddy and George don't/can't even play 'em. Lang can play heel down or up. He plays accented patterns with his feet IN GROOVES!!!

In other words, Lang has applied his speed to more things than just a straightforward roll.

Maybe you should check out guys like Thomas, Grant Collins and Virgil. It might force you to reconsider your opinion of the state of the art in double kick.

Oh, excuse me. I forgot the proper format...

Maybe you should check out THOMAS FREAKIN' LANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! before you come in screaming about the latest fast metal guy.

I will add also to all the haters out there: If you don't think Lang had speed as a high priority at some point you are insane. At least partially.

Speed is not the end all but it is a means to an ends, a necessary evil if you will:)

[millersc]

I would like to be able to play jazz and swing with a group at 300bpm or faster. That includes the traditional ride cymbal pattern and some triplet comping with three voices. Not really dense stuff but fun to do. I keep practicing and hopefully in a couple of years I'll be there. I think at that speed, I should be pretty comfortable with playing any jazz music that's around right now (except for that insane 400bpm + stuff in NY city clubs!).

Also to play ballads and everything else below those tempos. Speed isn't everything but you have to be pretty fast to play jazz and swing well at those speeds.

[Wavelength]

I would like to be able to play jazz and swing with a group at 300bpm or faster. That includes the traditional ride cymbal pattern and some triplet comping with three voices.

Straight 8th note phrasing works better at those tempos.

[millersc]

I know above 250 is when to start more of a straight eigths feel. Mostly the comping I was talking about was straight quarters with the right hand and the last two triplets with the left. Sorry that I wasn't super clear. I heard it done before and know it should be possible. But you are correct, playing perfect triplets at that speed is crazy.

[tsortoreyamaha]

my speed/rudimentary goal is to get them up to where what i hear/and think of can flow out, however fast that may be. after working on the on the side, i find a song out of my speed range and build to there. Its a good way to keep track of your progress.

of course u could be a crazy speed expert, but you'll have to apply that to the drums or it means nothing to most people. if ur sitting back there playing insanely fast 32nd and everyones like, this song sucks, what good is that?

[Tutin]

What is the point of your post? I know that Kollias is one bad mother. We were talking specifically here about all rudiments not just singles.

I am very impressed by the speed of guys like Roddy and George but their feet are nowhere near Lang's. Yeah, their top speed is a little higher but that's all they do. Lang can play any rudiment with his feet. ( For example: Lang can play flam triplets with his feet while laying down flam accents with his hands all at blinding speeds.) His doubles are powerful whereas Roddy and George don't/can't even play 'em. Lang can play heel down or up. He plays accented patterns with his feet IN GROOVES!!!

In other words, Lang has applied his speed to more things than just a straightforward roll.

Maybe you should check out guys like Thomas, Grant Collins and Virgil. It might force you to reconsider your opinion of the state of the art in double kick.

Oh, excuse me. I forgot the proper format...

Maybe you should check out THOMAS FREAKIN' LANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! before you come in screaming about the latest fast metal guy.

Wow Jeff, wow, wow, wow.

Check this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yTiTYKn_c) out .

And this (http://www.georgekollias.com/index2.htm).

Roddy doing doubles and Kollias' "balance and coordination" part showing exercises he does involving lots of different patterns.

[n2xlr8n]

Wow Jeff, wow, wow, wow.

Check this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yTiTYKn_c) out .


Roddy doing doubles.....


While I definitely respect Roddy's skills, that sound is exactly why I'm not focusing on heel-toe doubles at this point in my drumming education. It doesn't sound good to me. Derek even admits that it needs work in the vid.

It sounds like the kind of double stroke roll one might like to avoid altogether.

Just my .002

SRJ