Murray Spivack technique?

[JWM]

Anyone know how it works?

EDIT/UPDATE: here's a good primer from Chuck Silverman's site--

http://chucksilverman.com/technique.html

And here's a spot-on explanation on the grip concepts from further down the thread--

Definitely there is such a thing as the Murray Spivack technique.

Unfortunately a lot of people don’t know about this technique; I realized it is popular mostly on the West Coast (L.A. and San Francisco area).

Here are some basic principles--

a) The foundation of the technique is all in the grip.

b) The grip is a 3-point position between: thumb, index finger and the middle finger.

c) The fulcrum is: at the bottom of the first joint of the middle finger.

d) The thumb and the index finger are just holding the stick into the fulcrum (actually in the middle finger) and their pressure is constant: I mean there is no squeeze and release of the stick!

e) The back two fingers (ring and pinkie) have nothing to do with the grip; they are just dead, curved around the stick, and no action on it. No pushing, pulling or squeezing at all.

There is a video on Murray Spivack with Louie Bellson and David Garibaldi... it is definitely a good buy.

[jazzin']

What technique do you mean exactly? My teacher was taught by Murray Spivack but he's never really mentioned a specific Spivack technique as such. Maybe he has but he just didn't say it was a Spivack one.

[JWM]

What technique do you mean exactly? My teacher was taught by Murray Spivack but he's never really mentioned a specific Spivack technique as such. Maybe he has but he just didn't say it was a Spivack one.
Just hand technique in general: grip, fulcrum, mechanics, etc.

My teacher in California studied with him as well, but it's been years since then and my teacher passed away. I was wanting to re-explore some of the concepts to brush up, but it's hard to find anything on Spivack's approach.

It seems to me, that grip was a key factor in the technique-- an area of technique that is alarmingly ignored in discussions about Moeller, Gladstone or any other technique.

The whole Spivack approach is matched grip. I started in German position, and still play it to this day for most of my playing. The middle finger is the fulcrum and primary gripping point, and the back fingers provide support by simply resting on the stick (or the pinky can curl up near the stick). The thumb and first finger act as a sort of hinge for the middle finger's control of the stick, which acts almost as a lever as the stick moves. Tension is avoided by never allowing the pinky to stick out, and pressure--not squeezing--is used to control the stick. I was taught Moeller accenting along with this, and altogether it's a very sound approach...

[jazzsnob]

grip was a key factor in the technique-- an area of technique that is alarmingly ignored in discussions

You're not alone in this opinion.

But there is a certain "dynasty" of Gladstone players that believe that the correct, exact grip is essential. It's hard for people accept that sometimes their grips are just plain wrong.

Sorry I can't help with your specific technique info.

[jazzin']

I can't really help with any specifics, sorry. I have been taught trad. and just all the usuals that go with it..ie. arm, wrist, finger control, points of tension (or non-tension as it would be) moeller blah blah blah.
I'll try to remember to hassle him, see if he throws anything back.

[Drum-Head]

All I can merely remember is that Virgil Donati (who studied with M. Spivack) said that the technique is based on a loose grip and that with his style of playing, he finds the Spivack technique to be akward. For instance, if you've ever seen Virgil do his cross-overs all over the kit between cymbals and toms/snare. Donati mentionned that if he used Spivack's technique during those cross-overs he would loose his sticks.

That's all that comes to mind... It's not much but maybe it might help you remember somthing usefull...


Regards,
Christopher.

Edit: just read on a page that the basic motions are: wrist turn, rebound and upstroke. I know I'm not of very much help but maybe this could "rig a bell."

[LinearDrummer]

Just hand technique in general: grip, fulcrum, mechanics, etc.

My teacher in California studied with him as well, but it's been years since then and my teacher passed away. I was wanting to re-explore some of the concepts to brush up, but it's hard to find anything on Spivack's approach.

...

Hey JWM
Who's you techer in California?
I study with Chuck Silverman and he was one of Murray's prized protojes..

Fuuny thing is we don't even work on those techniques...He seems more interested at this point on working on control and forcing me to do exercises out of my comfort zone...

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

It seems to me, that grip was a key factor in the technique-- an area of technique that is alarmingly ignored in discussions about Moeller, Gladstone or any other technique.
...
Alarming is when someone doesn't bother to search through the previous discussions to find heaps of spirited discussions about grips. So try that....DPS

[JWM]

Hey JWM
Who's you techer in California?
I study with Chuck Silverman and he was one of Murray's prized protojes..

Fuuny thing is we don't even work on those techniques...He seems more interested at this point on working on control and forcing me to do exercises out of my comfort zone...
Hey there...

I definitely know about Chuck Silverman. He's a great drummer! He always reminded me of Garibaldi, which is a good thing!

I studied with Rick Steed in Riverside (who sat down with Garibaldi as well), at the old Lier's Music near downtown. When I tried to get back in touch with Rick about four years ago, I learned he passed away.

I only studied with him for about 2 years when I first began, around 15 years ago. More than anything, I wanted to re-explore some of the concepts, but it's hard to remember as I was only 10 years old when I started!

I'm in Nashville now, and it's pretty far away from that California camp...

[wind]

Definitely there is such a thing as the Murray Spivack technique.
I did study other 2 techniques, the Moller and the Push Pull (open closed technique) many years before learning the Spivack, which I think
it is really the beeeeeest technique I’ve ever learned.
Mr. Spivack was a genius.

Unfortunately a lot of people don’t know about this technique, I realized it is popular mostly on the west coast L.A. and San Francisco area.


Here are some basic principles.
a) The foundation of the technique is all in the grip. And the grip is stands on the fulcrum.

b) The grip is a 3-point position between: Thumb, Index finger and the Middle finger.

c) The fulcrum is: at the bottom of the first joint of the middle finger.

d) The thumb and the index finger are just holding the stick into the fulcrum (actually in the middle finger) and their pressure is constant: I mean there is no squeeze and release of the stick!

e) The back 2 fingers (4th and 5th) have nothing to do with the grip. Are just dead, curved around the stick, and no action on it. No pushing, pulling or squeezing at all.

Some considerations about what Virgil Donati said about this technique:
(Donati mentioned that if he used Spivack's technique during those cross-overs he would loose his sticks)

First of all I am not sure if Virgil ever studied with Murray Spivack, I think (but not sure ) he learned it from his early teacher in Australia, great Graham Morgan who was Spivack’s pupil.

It is true that you can occasionally loose the stick (more than ever in the beginning) when playing very heavy, since you are holding the stick almost on your fingertips. But there is one more important rule (upgrading) to keep in mind.

a) for light and medium play, you hold the stick on the first joint of the middle finger (and first joint of the index finger + thumb)
b) for heavy play (or when you are nervous and scared!!..) you hold it on the 2 joint of the middle finger (and 2 joint of index finger + thumb) In this way you’ll never loose the sticks.

Now, after few years using the Spivack technique. I do play real heavy also holding on the 1st joint (and never loose the stick). And when/if I switch to the 2nd joint, it just happens unconsciously.

The great think about this grip is that I can connect it to the Moeller
and to the Push Pull techniques, they work much better. The sound I am getting out of my drums and cymbals is much more polished, and I don’t break that many sticks anymore. (big big money saving)

There is a video on Murry Spivack with Louis Belson and Dave Garibaldi it is definitely a good buy.

[frustrated 55 year old]

Hey Wind
I posted a question about the 3 point/middle finger fulcrum technique on the ssr thread the other day. Didn't have any replies but your explanation of the Murray Spivak technique is exactly what I was looking for. Do you have anything further to add to what you've already posted? Maybe a drawing or pic?
Thanks again for your explanation.

Dale.

[johnhavart]

There is a video on Murry Spivack with Louis Belson and Dave Garibaldi it is definitely a good buy.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, this video is out of print. Any idea to find it ?

Thanks

[n2xlr8n]

Hey there...

I studied with Rick Steed in Riverside (who sat down with Garibaldi as well), at the old Lier's Music near downtown. When I tried to get back in touch with Rick about four years ago, I learned he passed away.


OMG, I did not know Rick had passed. The drumming community has lost a good soul and a talented guy.

I too, studied with Rick, from 1990-1992 at Lier's.

Small world.

S.

[JWM]

Definitely there is such a thing as the Murray Spivack technique.
I did study other 2 techniques, the Moller and the Push Pull (open closed technique) many years before learning the Spivack, which I think
it is really the beeeeeest technique I’ve ever learned.
Mr. Spivack was a genius.

Unfortunately a lot of people don’t know about this technique, I realized it is popular mostly on the west coast L.A. and San Francisco area.


Here are some basic principles.
a) The foundation of the technique is all in the grip. And the grip is stands on the fulcrum.

b) The grip is a 3-point position between: Thumb, Index finger and the Middle finger.

c) The fulcrum is: at the bottom of the first joint of the middle finger.

d) The thumb and the index finger are just holding the stick into the fulcrum (actually in the middle finger) and their pressure is constant: I mean there is no squeeze and release of the stick!

e) The back 2 fingers (4th and 5th) have nothing to do with the grip. Are just dead, curved around the stick, and no action on it. No pushing, pulling or squeezing at all.

Some considerations about what Virgil Donati said about this technique:
(Donati mentioned that if he used Spivack's technique during those cross-overs he would loose his sticks)

First of all I am not sure if Virgil ever studied with Murray Spivack, I think (but not sure ) he learned it from his early teacher in Australia, great Graham Morgan who was Spivack’s pupil.

It is true that you can occasionally loose the stick (more than ever in the beginning) when playing very heavy, since you are holding the stick almost on your fingertips. But there is one more important rule (upgrading) to keep in mind.

a) for light and medium play, you hold the stick on the first joint of the middle finger (and first joint of the index finger + thumb)
b) for heavy play (or when you are nervous and scared!!..) you hold it on the 2 joint of the middle finger (and 2 joint of index finger + thumb) In this way you’ll never loose the sticks.

Now, after few years using the Spivack technique. I do play real heavy also holding on the 1st joint (and never loose the stick). And when/if I switch to the 2nd joint, it just happens unconsciously.

The great think about this grip is that I can connect it to the Moeller
and to the Push Pull techniques, they work much better. The sound I am getting out of my drums and cymbals is much more polished, and I don’t break that many sticks anymore. (big big money saving)

There is a video on Murry Spivack with Louis Belson and Dave Garibaldi it is definitely a good buy.
AWESOME POST!

Everything is right on from what I can remember being taught about it. Thanks a lot for posting all of that.

This really is an amazing technique if the time is taken to fully develop it. I think it does tend to be more of a "finesse" approach, and I've found it's definitely wonderful for Moeller.

I'm now going back to the basics with it, because I developed some bad habits. So far, it's once again proving to be a superior technique. Murray was a genius, not to mention one of Hollywood's most important sound pioneers!

I really think it's important to spread the word on this stuff. Hopefully in the near future I can post some video explaining my progress with it, and you guys can give me feedback...

[Drum-Head]

Some considerations about what Virgil Donati said about this technique:
(Donati mentioned that if he used Spivack's technique during those cross-overs he would loose his sticks)

First of all I am not sure if Virgil ever studied with Murray Spivack, I think (but not sure ) he learned it from his early teacher in Australia, great Graham Morgan who was Spivack’s pupil.

This is from Virgil Donati's bio:

[...]At age 19 Virgil travelled to the U.S. to study with Philly Jo Jones, and at Dick Groves School in L.A. He also took lessons from snare drum specialist Murry Spivak.

Returning to Australia at age 21 was where Virgils career took off! Playing jazz with Alan Zavod and Brian Brown,- and rock with Peter Cupples band, he was a busy touring and session drummer Down Under.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

http://www.chucksilverman.com/lessons.5ratio2.html

Try this site.

[jazzin']

Hey wind, yes i am studying with Graham Morgan. A brilliant teacher and fantastic person.
We chatted briefly about some stuff Spivack used to get into, one that was just a multiple bounce idea kind of in between the moeller motion and open close motion but utilising anything up to 6 or so bounces. Yes, some very interesting stuff.

[Gil_drummer]

My teacher, that I studied with a few months back, was also a student of Murray's. His name is Steve Roth, and he is an excellent teacher and all around friendly guy. As mentioned previously, the technique does have a great amount of finesse and is executed very smoothly. Watching my teacher play was just awesome. He plays everything with great finesse.

[JWM]

Here's a good little "primer" I found on the Spivack approach from Chuck Silverman's site--

http://chucksilverman.com/technique.html

[Shinx]

Ha, from reading about this technique, I think I've kind of adopted a very rough version of it. I've never had a teacher, (I know, I need one, no money) but my grip is somewhat similar

[JWM]

Ha, from reading about this technique, I think I've kind of adopted a very rough version of it. I've never had a teacher, (I know, I need one, no money) but my grip is somewhat similar
You're lucky if your grip is somewhat similar ... because I think Spivack's whole idea was the "natural" way of gripping the stick.

But just keep working at it and analyzing what you're doing!

[RudimentalDrummer]

I was taught by my Instructor to played this way & hold sticks in this way, but I didn't know it's got a name for this so-call technique. I was told that it gives better control (I feel it too) thus consistency & good dynamics even at a good speed around the kit.

[JWM]

I was taught by my Instructor to played this way & hold sticks in this way, but I didn't know it's got a name for this so-call technique. I was told that it gives better control (I feel it too) thus consistency & good dynamics even at a good speed around the kit.
Well, it's not really a "named" technique per se, but rather a set of concepts taught by Murray Spivack. What gives it such a degree of association and cred is the drummers who literally sought out Murray for instruction-- a short list would include Louie Bellson, Vinnie Colaiuta, Virgil Donati, David Garibaldi, Matt Chamberlain and Chad Wackerman.

Apparently Murray was thought of in tight circles on the West Coast (primarily around L.A. and vicinity) as being THE guy to go to for hand technique.

[Shinx]

You're lucky if your grip is somewhat similar ... because I think Spivack's whole idea was the "natural" way of gripping the stick.

But just keep working at it and analyzing what you're doing!
Heh, well I'm definately sure my grip isn't perfect, but I like this technique a lot. As someone said about grip, its a lifelong quest

Also, thats quite a list

[n2xlr8n]

Wow.

Evidently Mr. Silverman has longer thumbs than I, or the picture is deceiving. If I place my thumb slightly ahead of my index finger, it closes my "gap" between my index and thumb, dampening the rebound. His grip looks like what Rick Steed taught and I use today (other than the long thumb ; ) ).

Any comments?


My current "teacher" believes in 1) the fulcrum is in the 2nd joint of the index, and 2) there should be no gap. Obviously, I'm not using his grip advice. You can tell his grip is "different" by the way his drums sound and the "pinched" sound of his rolls.

[JOH]

I was taught by my Instructor to played this way & hold sticks in this way, but I didn't know it's got a name for this so-call technique. I was told that it gives better control (I feel it too) thus consistency & good dynamics even at a good speed around the kit.

Having studied with a student of Murray's through the 50's and used the 'Spivack Technique' for 55 years, I always recall the system termed as 'Fixed Pressure and Finger Control'. It is possible that this description may have originated with Billy Gladstone. Quote Louie Bellson: "I first heard about Billy Gladstone while I was studying with Murray Spivack. Guys have always associated that finger technique with me because they've seen me do it. But actually, I got it from Murray and Billy Gladstone, who in turn got their concepts of finger technique from the French and Swiss drummers. But Murray always used to say that Billy was the real master and the leading exponent of the finger system". 'Billy Remembered' Modern Drummer, vol. 5 no. 7 Modern Drummer Publications, Inc., Cedar Grove, NJ, 1981
Also, Billy Gladstone by Chet Falzerano, Centerstream Publishing LLC P.O. Box 17878, Anaheim Hills, CA 92817

[JWM]

Having studied with a student of Murray's through the 50's and used the 'Spivack Technique' for 55 years, I always recall the system termed as 'Fixed Pressure and Finger Control'. It is possible that this description may have originated with Billy Gladstone. Quote Louie Bellson: "I first heard about Billy Gladstone while I was studying with Murray Spivack. Guys have always associated that finger technique with me because they've seen me do it. But actually, I got it from Murray and Billy Gladstone, who in turn got their concepts of finger technique from the French and Swiss drummers. But Murray always used to say that Billy was the real master and the leading exponent of the finger system". 'Billy Remembered' Modern Drummer, vol. 5 no. 7 Modern Drummer Publications, Inc., Cedar Grove, NJ, 1981
Also, Billy Gladstone by Chet Falzerano, Centerstream Publishing LLC P.O. Box 17878, Anaheim Hills, CA 92817
I had this thread bookmarked and thought I might check in... so funny to just now see a new post after like 6 months!

Thanks for contributing.

Are you in California? I learned from the late Rick Steed, one of Mr. Spivack's students who was based out of Riverside.

'Fixed Pressure' sounds right, but I'm not sure about the 'Finger Control' aspect of it. Seems like finger control has come to mean 'finger snapping' or the 'open/close - push/pull' approach. As I understand and practice it, Mr. Spivack's approach lies in the 'Fixed Pressure' aspect of it-- no opening/closing or pushing/pulling. It's a fixed fulcrum with the middle finger with additional support and pressure from the thumb and a "pinch" with the index at the first/furthest joint. The ring and pinky do not grip, but simply rest on or just off the stick (I prefer them to rest around the stick for additional support and to keep the stick's movement limited for more control and power).

[dea]

What are the benefits of using the middle finger for the fulcrum+thumb vs. the forefinger+thumb?

Forgive me, but I'm really struggling with this technique. Why would you ignore fingers that can add so much feel to your playing. Using the forefinger+thumb, I have three fingers to finely control the feel. Without them, things will become quite monotone.

My take is that add as many body parts as you can - in a relaxed fashion - to inject feel into your playing. To me, removing parts ( your free fingers ) really disturbs me. Maybe, I'm being stubborn, or hard-headed... I don't know. I will try this out though. Hehehe...

[JOH]

I had this thread bookmarked and thought I might check in... so funny to just now see a new post after like 6 months!

Thanks for contributing.

Are you in California? I learned from the late Rick Steed, one of Mr. Spivack's students who was based out of Riverside.

'Fixed Pressure' sounds right, but I'm not sure about the 'Finger Control' aspect of it. Seems like finger control has come to mean 'finger snapping' or the 'open/close - push/pull' approach. As I understand and practice it, Mr. Spivack's approach lies in the 'Fixed Pressure' aspect of it-- no opening/closing or pushing/pulling. It's a fixed fulcrum with the middle finger with additional support and pressure from the thumb and a "pinch" with the index at the first/furthest joint. The ring and pinky do not grip, but simply rest on or just off the stick (I prefer them to rest around the stick for additional support and to keep the stick's movement limited for more control and power).

I am from Utah. All that you say is correct within my long time understanding. The 'finger snapping' though, I don't relate too.... HA! ...maybe finger control. My original study dates back to the early 50's when most of the old original advocates were still alive. I wish that I had studied and had contact with Murray. My teachers were very strong and particular advocates of the method I know as 'Fixed Pressure and Finger Control' ....Billy Wilson, Forrest Clark and indirectly, Ralph Collier. The 'finger control' aspect of the study is that of more pressure adjustment at the fulcrum than a 'snapping'. The entire George L. Stone pub can be practiced utilizing mulitiple bounces and pressure adjustment of the middle finger and dependant on the rebound of the drum head. The 'grip' is loose, a rather open hand. I am sorry to see and fail to read much on the left hand (traditional) position. The fulcrum between the thumb and first finger crotch, the first finger the pressure control and third finger a moveable platform for the stick. If one can see a photo of Billy Gladstone in position, the grips are undeniable. Louie Bellson too. Joe Morello too. Joe frequently uses LH first finger control for extremely rapid single strokes or RH third finger in the same fashion. He usually turns his LH over in doing so. Louie does it palm up. I recall developement for this long ago....three separate developements to act as one: finger, wrist and arm. I wish that I could have watched Billy Gladstone play because all I've ever heard is that he was the master of finger, wrist and arm. It has been a long, long time but the position has become kindred to riding a bike. My hands go to the original grip. Thanks for the response. Keeps my head going...in the right direction.......hopefully.

[JWM]

What are the benefits of using the middle finger for the fulcrum+thumb vs. the forefinger+thumb?

Forgive me, but I'm really struggling with this technique. Why would you ignore fingers that can add so much feel to your playing. Using the forefinger+thumb, I have three fingers to finely control the feel. Without them, things will become quite monotone.

My take is that add as many body parts as you can - in a relaxed fashion - to inject feel into your playing. To me, removing parts ( your free fingers ) really disturbs me. Maybe, I'm being stubborn, or hard-headed... I don't know. I will try this out though. Hehehe...
Well, there is the maxim that you do whatever works for you, and if you like what you're doing, why change, right?

But I think this technique has proven to be advantageous for many "name" players such as Vinnie, Garibaldi, Louie Bellson and even Weckl adopted it with his right hand.

What I find interesting is that the sound you get from the drums is far from monotone... it's the exact opposite-- they really sing, because your hand is relaxed and the stick is moving more freely in your hand. With some time and patience, you can develop power with it too by bringing the stick into the hand more via the middle finger (which is pretty much what I do all the time now anyway).

Weckl actually has a decent demonstration of some of the principals--

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oisX1nhhmeM

He learned it from Freddie Gruber, but these concepts are very "California" based as Freddie and Murray have been the technique guys out there.

[spivackfan]

It sure is nice to see people finaly recognizing Murray,I studied with Murray in 77-78,I was very lucky,he was the very best and demanded the very best,if you didn,t keep up you were let go.His grip is like holding a baseball and bouncing it,very natural and very loose,you hold the stick between the thumb and the first joint of you index finger your middle finger is held behind the index finger using the tip not the joint(fat part),the other follow behind not touching the stick but relaxed as if you put your fist on your leg-naturaly.Just for record Chuck studied with Richard Wilson who was a teacher for Murray,but let go .It would be nice to talk of Murrays other accoplishments also such as putting the sound in the MGM lion ,Oscar for Hello Dolly etc.

[JWM]

Just wanted to bump this thread!

[Ancient Drummer]

Just discovered this site via a Google search. It is very interesting, thanks for letting me in.

In 1958 I studied with Murray Spivack, then later with Forrest Clark (and several others for various aspects of drumming). You guys are absolutely right about the "Spivack Technique", and how great it is.

However, it is much more than the grip! It involves using the arms, shoulders, wrists, fingers, and body in very natural physical actions. The use of the elbows as counter balances, and the whole arm as a whip is much of the essence of the style.

I began drumming as a tympanist, and became an original proponent of the matched grip. I came to the rude realization that by using Spivack's variation of the traditional grip, my left hand could do things that my right hand couldn't come close to. Examples of this are Joey Morello's and Buddy Rich's incredible one-handed rolls. (Rich did not study with Murray, but I believe that Murray studied Rich's techniques and expanded on them). It is interesting to watch some of the great percussionists, and discover that they are using elements of Murray's techniques, even on the East Coast. Frederick Fennell and I discussed this several years ago, and he agreed that Spivack was probably the best ever at defining what made "good" drumming.

It has stayed with me, and even though I have not played for about thirty years, I can still step into a concert band and play all the Sousa, including the 6-stroke rolls the old guys used to use. Gotta admit, though, I get pretty tired . . . . .

Keep up the good work.

Ed

[JWM]

Just discovered this site via a Google search. It is very interesting, thanks for letting me in.

In 1958 I studied with Murray Spivack, then later with Forrest Clark (and several others for various aspects of drumming). You guys are absolutely right about the "Spivack Technique", and how great it is.

However, it is much more than the grip! It involves using the arms, shoulders, wrists, fingers, and body in very natural physical actions. The use of the elbows as counter balances, and the whole arm as a whip is much of the essence of the style.

I began drumming as a tympanist, and became an original proponent of the matched grip. I came to the rude realization that by using Spivack's variation of the traditional grip, my left hand could do things that my right hand couldn't come close to. Examples of this are Joey Morello's and Buddy Rich's incredible one-handed rolls. (Rich did not study with Murray, but I believe that Murray studied Rich's techniques and expanded on them). It is interesting to watch some of the great percussionists, and discover that they are using elements of Murray's techniques, even on the East Coast. Frederick Fennell and I discussed this several years ago, and he agreed that Spivack was probably the best ever at defining what made "good" drumming.

It has stayed with me, and even though I have not played for about thirty years, I can still step into a concert band and play all the Sousa, including the 6-stroke rolls the old guys used to use. Gotta admit, though, I get pretty tired . . . . .

Keep up the good work.

Ed
Ed,

Thank you very much for the contribution. There is some wonderful history with all of this!

And you are right... it's much more than just the grip, though it is difficult to explain the wrist/arm motions without a visual guide.

Hopefully the interest in Murray's concepts will be revitalized with a new generation and those with the media support can get it out there... I'm trying darn hard to do something about it!

I'm actually hoping to study with Chuck Silverman when I get to the Musicians Institute in the spring so that I can really understand how to best teach it...

Cheers!

[ChuckSilverman]

hey guys

I'd like to revitalize the messages about Murray Spivack and also about Richard Wilson. I studied with these two Geniuses, and I don't use that term lightly. I'm writing, actually, right now, about my lessons with Murray and Richard. It's such a shame that they have both passed on. My lessons with them, 3 years with Richard and 2 years with Murray, have served me so well for so long. All about relaxing and holding on to the sticks in a very natural way.

I'd like to discuss this with anyone who's interested!

Hope to hear from some of you soon,

Chuck

[Alex Luce]

Hello Chuck:

I met you about 25 years ago at one of your gigs in Los Angeles. I appreciate your post here and would love to get your opinion on the following topic:

I have a theory that the greatest drummers use their arms as systems of levers when playing. To me, the most important factor for successful playing is not how the sticks are held, but how the arms move when the drums are struck. I believe when your stroke is correct, the grip can be easily adjusted to accommodate different types of playing. However, the stroke (the way the entire arm moves) is a constant that relies on using the arms as lever systems; and whether you are using French, German or traditional grip, the movements remain pretty much the same.

I have read the information about Murray's lessons on your website, but I am still not sure if any of his views and concepts he expressed coincide with mine. If you have time to read some information I have posted on a thread here, and then give me your opinion, I would be most grateful. http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=373376&highlight=system+of+levers#post373376

Sincerely,

Alex Luce

[Vinnysimmo]

I have never heard of this technique before and i am intrigued. Could Chuck or anyone else who has studdied with Spivak be so kind as to post a vido so i could see what it looks like in action? It would be great if someone could do this and im sure i would not be the only one interested in this.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

From the photos further down the thread,

http://chucksilverman.com/technique.html

the grip itself looks exactly like what Dom Famularo teaches. The description also pretty much matches. So I am all for! What I like is that the juxtaposition of thumb and forefinger is how the hand looks in a relaxed state, and so to me that makes sense as a "natural" approach.

I hope to learn more about Spivak, whom many people on the board speak of with such reverence.

Casper

[MattRitter]

Hi, Chuck

We meet again! Thanks for logging in to invite questions about grip. I'll certainly take you up on that!

Looking at the photos and description on your website, it seems that your grip is similar to the one I use most often:

a) Middle finger is the fulcrum
b) Thumb and index finger are on the sides of the stick, serving as a guide

Three points I'd like to get your input on:

1) You describe the fulcrum as the FIRST knuckle of the middle finger. For me, that seems to work only for unusually light playing. For typical playing, I definitely prefer to move the stick back toward the SECOND knuckle of the middle finger. Or...actually, maybe the stick sits on the section of finger IN BETWEEN the first and second knuckle. Any thoughts on this? Was this adjustment part of Spivack's teaching?

2) Early in my drum studies, I was taught to place the stick in the center crease of the hand, so that the stick makes a direct extension of the arm.

Later, I studied with Jim Chapin, who taught me to place the stick against the "shock absorber pad" under the pinky finger. In this way, the fingers can wrap around the stick more naturally. However, this results in an angle between the stick and the arm that is pretty severe (probably about 135 degrees, rather than a straight 180 degrees). I played that way for many years.

Then, about 4 years ago, I studied with a master drummer with roots in the classical field. This guy is very famous in the New York classical and Broadway scene, and I consider him to be one of the world's best drummers (played West Side Story under Leonard Bernstein, tympani solo at Carnegie Hall, held a couple of Broadway chairs, played in Jefferson Airplane as a high school student, toured with Liza Minelli, etc. etc.) When I met him, he immediately stated that I would benefit from going back to having the stick in the center crease of the hand (to make the stick a direct extension of the arm). Since then, I've generally played in this way.

My personal observations are as follows:

The "angled" hold (as taught by Jim Chapin) works well for Moeller, and it works well if you play with a sort of "side throw" type stroke. It is a very natural way to HOLD something, but it is not necessarily a natural way to reach out and hit something. It positions the stick out of alignment with the direction of the actual wrist hinge movement.

The "center crease" hold places the stick in alignment with the wrist hinge movement and therefore feels like a more natural way to strike something. However, the hold itself is not quite as natural. Many drummers and drum teachers (both live and on DVD) teach the angled hold when showing how to hold the stick. Then...when they actually start playing (especially at faster tempos), the stick clearly shifts to become a straight line with their arm!

The pictures on your site seem to show a stick position which is somewhere in between the 2 versions I described. Do you have any strong opinions on this matter? Did Spivack?

3) For fast and fluid playing, it seems logical to place the fulcrum at the point on the stick that gives the best natural bounce. However, for a strong backbeat, I find it helpful to intentionally hold BEHIND this point. The downside, of course, is that the stick is less responsive when you depart from the main groove to do a fill. Any thoughts? Do you find one single spot on the stick to hold and stay there for all applications, or might you slide forward and backward depending on the needs of the moment? What did Spivack teach?

Thanks, Chuck! I know I've hit you with quite a lot here. I appreciate it.

Hope you've been well.

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[ChuckSilverman]

Wow.....I wish I knew when people were responding to my posts. hmmmm

well...let me digest this post and get back to you, probably tomorrow. Working all day today and tonight...excellent!!!!

I'll be baaaaack

Chuck

Hi, Chuck

We meet again! Thanks for logging in to invite questions about grip. I'll certainly take you up on that!

Looking at the photos and description on your website, it seems that your grip is similar to the one I use most often:

a) Middle finger is the fulcrum
b) Thumb and index finger are on the sides of the stick, serving as a guide

Three points I'd like to get your input on:

1) You describe the fulcrum as the FIRST knuckle of the middle finger. For me, that seems to work only for unusually light playing. For typical playing, I definitely prefer to move the stick back toward the SECOND knuckle of the middle finger. Or...actually, maybe the stick sits on the section of finger IN BETWEEN the first and second knuckle. Any thoughts on this? Was this adjustment part of Spivack's teaching?

2) Early in my drum studies, I was taught to place the stick in the center crease of the hand, so that the stick makes a direct extension of the arm.

Later, I studied with Jim Chapin, who taught me to place the stick against the "shock absorber pad" under the pinky finger. In this way, the fingers can wrap around the stick more naturally. However, this results in an angle between the stick and the arm that is pretty severe (probably about 135 degrees, rather than a straight 180 degrees). I played that way for many years.

Then, about 4 years ago, I studied with a master drummer with roots in the classical field. This guy is very famous in the New York classical and Broadway scene, and I consider him to be one of the world's best drummers (played West Side Story under Leonard Bernstein, tympani solo at Carnegie Hall, held a couple of Broadway chairs, played in Jefferson Airplane as a high school student, toured with Liza Minelli, etc. etc.) When I met him, he immediately stated that I would benefit from going back to having the stick in the center crease of the hand (to make the stick a direct extension of the arm). Since then, I've generally played in this way.

My personal observations are as follows:

The "angled" hold (as taught by Jim Chapin) works well for Moeller, and it works well if you play with a sort of "side throw" type stroke. It is a very natural way to HOLD something, but it is not necessarily a natural way to reach out and hit something. It positions the stick out of alignment with the direction of the actual wrist hinge movement.

The "center crease" hold places the stick in alignment with the wrist hinge movement and therefore feels like a more natural way to strike something. However, the hold itself is not quite as natural. Many drummers and drum teachers (both live and on DVD) teach the angled hold when showing how to hold the stick. Then...when they actually start playing (especially at faster tempos), the stick clearly shifts to become a straight line with their arm!

The pictures on your site seem to show a stick position which is somewhere in between the 2 versions I described. Do you have any strong opinions on this matter? Did Spivack?

3) For fast and fluid playing, it seems logical to place the fulcrum at the point on the stick that gives the best natural bounce. However, for a strong backbeat, I find it helpful to intentionally hold BEHIND this point. The downside, of course, is that the stick is less responsive when you depart from the main groove to do a fill. Any thoughts? Do you find one single spot on the stick to hold and stay there for all applications, or might you slide forward and backward depending on the needs of the moment? What did Spivack teach?

Thanks, Chuck! I know I've hit you with quite a lot here. I appreciate it.

Hope you've been well.

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[JWM]

Wow... it is great to see this thread staying alive, though I too think that it would be nice to get an email when people post messages.

And good to see you in here Chuck! I was unable to make it to MI this spring, but I am shooting for the fall. Hopefully you can point anything out that I may be doing wrong with Mr. Spivack's technique!

My own opinion about Alex Luce's post is that while motions/strokes are important, grip is just as important. And I think when we say "German" or "French," that's more of a hand position than a particular grip. Grip is how we hold the stick, and many drummers have ended up with severe physical problems because they hold the stick with reckless abandon...

What I love so much about Murray's concepts is the simplicity and safety of it.

I am very much looking forward to your materials on Murray and Richard Wilson, Chuck!

BTW, is the Spivack video with Louie Bellson and Dave Garibaldi still around?

[twtowne]

Nice to see some discussion about the Master Teachers. I had the privilege of studying with Richard Wilson from 1982-1987. I always look back on my time with great fondness and admiration for all that he taught me. He really had a gift for challenging one to get out of the box...

[Alex Luce]

...My own opinion about Alex Luce's post is that while motions/strokes are important, grip is just as important. And I think when we say "German" or "French," that's more of a hand position than a particular grip. Grip is how we hold the stick, and many drummers have ended up with severe physical problems because they hold the stick with reckless abandon...

JWM: Thank you for your comments on my post. In response I would say that having a natural stroke based on the arm's lever system gives drummers the ability to grip the stick correctly. If drummers are having continued difficulty holding the stick according to Spivack's instructions, they should look at the way the whole arm is functioning and make sure their stroke is in order.

I started out playing with a horrible stroke and all sorts of grip problems. But once I got my stroke cleaned up, the grip took care of itself.

Regards,

Alex

P.S. I think you should get emails everytime there is a post on your thread. Make sure you are subscribed (see the Thread Tools link), and then whenever you get an email, go to the drummerworld site to read the post. If you just read the post in your email program, I think you get unsubscribed.

[JWM]

JWM: Thank you for your comments on my post. In response I would say that having a natural stroke based on the arm's lever system gives drummers the ability to grip the stick correctly. If drummers are having continued difficulty holding the stick according to Spivack's instructions, they should look at the way the whole arm is functioning and make sure their stroke is in order.

That's a good point ...

When I was first taught Spivack's concepts by my late drum teacher, Rick Steed, our first lesson didn't even involve drumsticks ... He showed me the correct motions and related them to being like throwing a baseball and dribbling a basketball. As I now see it, it's very similar to what Dom Famularo calls "Low Moeller" ... it's really that motion that comprises the majority of my playing.

P.S. I think you should get emails everytime there is a post on your thread. Make sure you are subscribed (see the Thread Tools link), and then whenever you get an email, go to the drummerworld site to read the post. If you just read the post in your email program, I think you get unsubscribed.

Thanks... I'll look into that!

Cheers.

[ChuckSilverman]

greeetings from Los Angeles

I'm actually putting together a DVD regarding my lessons with Murray Spivack and Richard Wilson. I think it'll be 2 DVDs actually. So much information. I tried to produce something with Richard but, for those of you who know Richard, well...it began to take on a BIG life of its own.

As I produce the DVD I'll post stuff here or on my website.
And, with all respect to all of you, if any of you have any questions about the lessons I took or anythying to do with this technique, please do send them here.

Chuck

[Alex Luce]

When I was first taught Spica's concepts by my late drum teacher, Rick Steed, our first lesson didn't even involve drumsticks ... He showed me the correct motions and related them to being like throwing a baseball and dribbling a basketball. As I now see it, it's very similar to what Dom Famularo calls "Low Moeller" ... it's really that motion that comprises the majority of my playing.

JWM: That's awesome and fortunate that you were taught those motions by Rick Steed. Sounds like he really knew technique, and I completely agree with the analogies to baseball and basketball.

I've also thought that good drumming technique is similar to the basketball shooting motion. When you look at the great players, when they shoot, the forearm lever pivots back (at the elbow), and the hand lever pivots down (at the wrist). That is pretty much the German grip stroke right there.

Regards,

Alex

[ChuckSilverman]

JWM: That's awesome and fortunate that you were taught those motions by Rick Steed. Sounds like he really knew technique, and I completely agree with the analogies to baseball and basketball.

I've also thought that good drumming technique is similar to the basketball shooting motion. When you look at the great players, when they shoot, the forearm lever pivots back (at the elbow), and the hand lever pivots down (at the wrist). That is pretty much the German grip stroke right there.

Regards,

Alex

Let's see if I can add to the conversation here. Perhaps I need to post some videos on my website with some ideas about how I began my lessons with Richard. Well, let me try and explain. Richard had me just stand with my arms relaxed by my side. He had me raise my arm in front of me (just bending at the elbow). If you do this "properly", your hand will be in the "middle" of the French (thumb up) and German (palm down) position. Try this and see if this works for you. Then Richard just had me turn my hand over and hold the stick, then go back to the position with my foream parallel to the floor at a 90 degree angle from my body. You'll be holding the stick in the "middle" of the French (thumb up) and German (palm down) position. Then we learned how to relax and make "wrist turns". So much to explain and relatively difficult with words. Anyone in L.A.who wants to come over to study??

[JWM]

Let's see if I can add to the conversation here. Perhaps I need to post some videos on my website with some ideas about how I began my lessons with Richard. Well, let me try and explain. Richard had me just stand with my arms relaxed by my side. He had me raise my arm in front of me (just bending at the elbow). If you do this "properly", your hand will be in the "middle" of the French (thumb up) and German (palm down) position. Try this and see if this works for you. Then Richard just had me turn my hand over and hold the stick, then go back to the position with my foream parallel to the floor at a 90 degree angle from my body. You'll be holding the stick in the "middle" of the French (thumb up) and German (palm down) position. Then we learned how to relax and make "wrist turns". So much to explain and relatively difficult with words. Anyone in L.A.who wants to come over to study??

Chuck,

I would absolutely love to come and study with you ... there are some things I wanna go over with you with the technique.

I'm gonna be staying with my aunt in Irvine starting next month, possibly to gear up for MI in the fall. But it would be great to maybe come up to L.A. to do some lessons a couple times a month through the summer!

I'll keep ya posted and let you know when I'm out there...

[twtowne]

Let's see if I can add to the conversation here. Perhaps I need to post some videos on my website with some ideas about how I began my lessons with Richard. Well, let me try and explain. Richard had me just stand with my arms relaxed by my side. He had me raise my arm in front of me (just bending at the elbow). If you do this "properly", your hand will be in the "middle" of the French (thumb up) and German (palm down) position. Try this and see if this works for you. Then Richard just had me turn my hand over and hold the stick, then go back to the position with my foream parallel to the floor at a 90 degree angle from my body. You'll be holding the stick in the "middle" of the French (thumb up) and German (palm down) position. Then we learned how to relax and make "wrist turns". So much to explain and relatively difficult with words. Anyone in L.A.who wants to come over to study??

To follow-on to Chuck's comment... I recall a similar situation during my first lesson with Richard. That first lesson was primarily focused on posture, grip and wrist turns - very slowly @ 40 bpm. Richard's lessons always focused on slow controlled practice - keeping in mind the grip. After a couple months, and more rudiments, Richard would test my grip by cranking up the metronome and knock my sticks with his sticks. If you let go - he'd let you know. My daily practice still begins with singles @ 40 bpm (1-2-3-4-5....16 taps per beat) then doubles. Chuck is correct... there is so much to explain. I would add it's best to sit down with a master teacher and have them show you the technique and provide critique.

[ChuckSilverman]

To follow-on to Chuck's comment... I recall a similar situation during my first lesson with Richard. That first lesson was primarily focused on posture, grip and wrist turns - very slowly @ 40 bpm. Richard's lessons always focused on slow controlled practice - keeping in mind the grip. After a couple months, and more rudiments, Richard would test my grip by cranking up the metronome and knock my sticks with his sticks. If you let go - he'd let you know. My daily practice still begins with singles @ 40 bpm (1-2-3-4-5....16 taps per beat) then doubles. Chuck is correct... there is so much to explain. I would add it's best to sit down with a master teacher and have them show you the technique and provide critique.

great to post info about Richard and Murray. Two amazing instructors of the snare drum. Every time I practice or teach their lessons and technique I learn something new. It's worked for me for many years.

Just popped in to say "hi".

Chuck

[Alex Luce]

Hi, Chuck

We meet again! Thanks for logging in to invite questions about grip. I'll certainly take you up on that!

Looking at the photos and description on your website, it seems that your grip is similar to the one I use most often:

a) Middle finger is the fulcrum
b) Thumb and index finger are on the sides of the stick, serving as a guide

Three points I'd like to get your input on:

1) You describe the fulcrum as the FIRST knuckle of the middle finger. For me, that seems to work only for unusually light playing. For typical playing, I definitely prefer to move the stick back toward the SECOND knuckle of the middle finger. Or...actually, maybe the stick sits on the section of finger IN BETWEEN the first and second knuckle. Any thoughts on this? Was this adjustment part of Spica's teaching?

2) Early in my drum studies, I was taught to place the stick in the center crease of the hand, so that the stick makes a direct extension of the arm.

Later, I studied with Jim Chapin, who taught me to place the stick against the "shock absorber pad" under the punky finger. In this way, the fingers can wrap around the stick more naturally. However, this results in an angle between the stick and the arm that is pretty severe (probably about 135 degrees, rather than a straight 180 degrees). I played that way for many years.

Then, about 4 years ago, I studied with a master drummer with roots in the classical field. This guy is very famous in the New York classical and Broadway scene, and I consider him to be one of the world's best drummers (played West Side Story under Leonard Bernstein, tympani solo at Carnegie Hall, held a couple of Broadway chairs, played in Jefferson Airplane as a high school student, toured with Liza Melli, etc. etc.) When I met him, he immediately stated that I would benefit from going back to having the stick in the center crease of the hand (to make the stick a direct extension of the arm). Since then, I've generally played in this way.

My personal observations are as follows:

The "angled" hold (as taught by Jim Chapin) works well for Moeller, and it works well if you play with a sort of "side throw" type stroke. It is a very natural way to HOLD something, but it is not necessarily a natural way to reach out and hit something. It positions the stick out of alignment with the direction of the actual wrist hinge movement.

The "center crease" hold places the stick in alignment with the wrist hinge movement and therefore feels like a more natural way to strike something. However, the hold itself is not quite as natural. Many drummers and drum teachers (both live and on DVD) teach the angled hold when showing how to hold the stick. Then...when they actually start playing (especially at faster tempos), the stick clearly shifts to become a straight line with their arm!

The pictures on your site seem to show a stick position which is somewhere in between the 2 versions I described. Do you have any strong opinions on this matter? Did Spivack?

Hey Matt:

I enjoyed reading your post. I am not sure if Chuck ever answered your inquiry (he never answered mine), but I would like to add my thoughts:

I agree with your middle finger fulcrum statement. I think resting the stick on the 2nd knuckle or the pad in front of it works best for typical playing.

About holding the stick in the center crease of the hand...I never even thought of doing it that way, I have always held the stick in that shock absorber zone. I tried a little playing tonight holding the sticks in the center crease, and it sure makes my stroke feel different.

I think the "side throw" stroke that you mentioned is a natural result of rotating the forearm outward about 90 degrees (so your thumbnail is facing the chest) before you make the stroke...which is something we talked about before. As far as this stroke "positioning the stick out of alignment with the direction of the actual wrist hinge movement", I don't see it quite that way. When the forearm is rotated outward 90 degrees and the hand pivots down to make the stroke, it does so in a sideways motion and not straight up and down. The hand is traveling in the same direction of the stick and so the full force of the wrist movement is behind it.

Of course you could also use the "side throw" motion while holding the stick in the center crease of the hand. It feels weird to me, but maybe that is because I am not used to playing that way.

In summary, I am not sure which is better, just what I am used to. It would be nice to hear what Chuck has to say.

Regards,

Alex

P.S. Attached is a video of my stroke (Matt you have already seen this) for explanation purposes. I don't use my fingers in this video so the motion is large and exaggerated.

[ChuckSilverman]

Hey Matt:

I enjoyed reading your post. I am not sure if Chuck ever answered your inquiry (he never answered mine), but I would like to add my thoughts:

I agree with your middle finger fulcrum statement. I think resting the stick on the 2nd knuckle or the pad in front of it works best for typical playing.

About holding the stick in the center crease of the hand...I never even thought of doing it that way, I have always held the stick in that shock absorber zone. I tried a little playing tonight holding the sticks in the center crease, and it sure makes my stroke feel different.

I think the "side throw" stroke that you mentioned is a natural result of rotating the forearm outward about 90 degrees (so your thumbnail is facing the chest) before you make the stroke...which is something we talked about before. As far as this stroke "positioning the stick out of alignment with the direction of the actual wrist hinge movement", I don't see it quite that way. When the forearm is rotated outward 90 degrees and the hand pivots down to make the stroke, it does so in a sideways motion and not straight up and down. The hand is traveling in the same direction of the stick and so the full force of the wrist movement is behind it.

Of course you could also use the "side throw" motion while holding the stick in the center crease of the hand. It feels weird to me, but maybe that is because I am not used to playing that way.

In summary, I am not sure which is better, just what I am used to. It would be nice to hear what Chuck has to say.

Regards,

Alex

P.S. Attached is a video of my stroke (Matt you have already seen this) for explanation purposes. I don't use my fingers in this video so the motion is large and exaggerated.

hmmmm...this is getting interesting indeed. Le't see if I can describe this and maybe shoot a little video later today, with a student.

The stick lays in the "bottom of the first knuckle, middle finger". This is where you feel the actual weight of the stick. This is an important concept and important point. During your practice, you must concentrate on feeling the weight of the sticking lying in the "bottom of the first knuckle, middle finger". You squeeze up towards the palm with the middle finger. Not that much! Enough to hold the stick.

The stick is held between the pad of the thumb and the index finger, in the the crease of the first knuckle of the index finger. Pressure is between the pad and the crease, not "up". I envision a nail going through the middle of the thumb nail and the the first knuckle of the index finger. Just enough pressure to keep the stick from falling out of the grip. Pressure remains constant throughout the strokes.

The back of the stick should be just to the outside of the bone in the outside of the back of your hand. This insures that the stick becomes an extension of your forearm.

Looking down at your hand, it should be, with proper instruction, in the middle of the French and German grips. This also insures a very smooth and unobstructed Wrist Turn. The hand and forearm are parallel to the floor of the stroke.

Each stroke begins and ends one inch from the pad and parallel to the floor of the stroke. No "bicyle motion" of the sticks.

Feet are Always With the Metronome.

OK....let's see. I need more coffee....

[MattRitter]

Hey Matt:

I enjoyed reading your post. I am not sure if Chuck ever answered your inquiry (he never answered mine), but I would like to add my thoughts:

I agree with your middle finger fulcrum statement. I think resting the stick on the 2nd knuckle or the pad in front of it works best for typical playing.

About holding the stick in the center crease of the hand...I never even thought of doing it that way, I have always held the stick in that shock absorber zone. I tried a little playing tonight holding the sticks in the center crease, and it sure makes my stroke feel different.

I think the "side throw" stroke that you mentioned is a natural result of rotating the forearm outward about 90 degrees (so your thumbnail is facing the chest) before you make the stroke...which is something we talked about before. As far as this stroke "positioning the stick out of alignment with the direction of the actual wrist hinge movement", I don't see it quite that way. When the forearm is rotated outward 90 degrees and the hand pivots down to make the stroke, it does so in a sideways motion and not straight up and down. The hand is traveling in the same direction of the stick and so the full force of the wrist movement is behind it.

Of course you could also use the "side throw" motion while holding the stick in the center crease of the hand. It feels weird to me, but maybe that is because I am not used to playing that way.

In summary, I am not sure which is better, just what I am used to. It would be nice to hear what Chuck has to say.

Regards,

Alex

P.S. Attached is a video of my stroke (Matt you have already seen this) for explanation purposes. I don't use my fingers in this video so the motion is large and exaggerated.

Hey, Alex!

Great to hear from you. I hope you've been doing well. You and I certainly have a similar mindset, which is somewhat like a scientist/investigator when dealing with this stuff! I'm recently adopting the attitude that there are many, many "right" ways to manipulate a drumstick, depending on the exact scenario. It has taken me a long while to mature into this perspective, but it's where I'm currently arriving. Lately, I use middle finger fulcrum for certain things, index finger fulcrum for certain things, German grip for certain things, French grip for certain things, stick in the middle crease of the hand for certain things, stick against the pad under the index for certain things, open-handed for certain things, cross-handed for certain things. With this being my current concept, I'm glad to hear that you tried out the center crease of the hand approach. It definitely has advantages for certain applications. Thanks again for reaching out. Continued luck with your book project!

Matt

Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[twtowne]

Hi guys,

As I recall, the late Carlos Vega was a student of Richard Wilson's for many years. Check out this clip of Carlos...I think you'll find it enlightening: http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/CarlosVega.html

Tim


Hey, Alex!

Great to hear from you. I hope you've been doing well. You and I certainly have a similar mindset, which is somewhat like a scientist/investigator when dealing with this stuff! I'm recently adopting the attitude that there are many, many "right" ways to manipulate a drumstick, depending on the exact scenario. It has taken me a long while to mature into this perspective, but it's where I'm currently arriving. Lately, I use middle finger fulcrum for certain things, index finger fulcrum for certain things, German grip for certain things, French grip for certain things, stick in the middle crease of the hand for certain things, stick against the pad under the index for certain things, open-handed for certain things, cross-handed for certain things. With this being my current concept, I'm glad to hear that you tried out the center crease of the hand approach. It definitely has advantages for certain applications. Thanks again for reaching out. Continued luck with your book project!

Matt

Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[ChuckSilverman]

Hi guys,

As I recall, the late Carlos Vega was a student of Richard Wilson's for many years. Check out this clip of Carlos...I think you'll find it enlightening: http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/CarlosVega.html

Tim

Wow. I used to see Carlos with the band Karizma, here in L.A. What a touch.

[spivackfan]

Hi Chuck, Did you study with Murray ,or did you only study with Mr. Wilson.Why was Mr. Wilson let go by Murray?It would be nice to meet up some day when I get to L.A.,Spivackfan

[ChuckSilverman]

Hi Chuck, Did you study with Murray ,or did you only study with Mr. Wilson.Why was Mr. Wilson let go by Murray?It would be nice to meet up some day when I get to L.A.,Spivackfan

Hi

I studied with Richard Wilson for three and a half years, took a year off, then studied with Murray for two years. Yesterday I completed part one of a DVD that will highlight, I hope, some of the lessons I had with both of these amazing snare drum technique teachers. I'll put some of the footage up here and/or on youtube.

Chuck

[ChuckSilverman]

hi all

Does anyone have the Murray Spivack video which was produced by Warner Brothers Music Publishing? It's out of print.

Thanks

Chuck

[JWM]

Hi

I studied with Richard Wilson for three and a half years, took a year off, then studied with Murray for two years. Yesterday I completed part one of a DVD that will highlight, I hope, some of the lessons I had with both of these amazing snare drum technique teachers. I'll put some of the footage up here and/or on youtube.

Chuck

Chuck,

Absolutely can't wait to see the DVD!

[ChuckSilverman]

hi guys

I'm leaving for Cuba this coming Monday June 23rd. I'll be back July 4th. I can't wait to go. It's been way too long. I'll make sure and post some news when I return.

Also, tomorrow I'm finishing shooting the basic technique DVD, dedicated to Richard Wilson and Murray Spivak. So much information...man where do I stop??

Thanks for being in touch and thanks Bernhard!!

Chuck

PS and Nutha!

[spinupspindown]

Each stroke begins and ends one inch from the pad and parallel to the floor of the stroke. No "bicyle motion" of the sticks.

Hi Chuck,

I doubt you remember, but a few years back I emailed you with these same questions, and you very kindly took the time to respond. Thank you for that! My grip idn't perfect, not even close, but it's gotten a lot better since.

Now I have to ask, what do you mean by a 'bicycle motion' that we should avoid?

Thanks!

Mike

[Chris Oyens]

Hi to all, this is my first post in this forum. I came across this thread after googling on my former teacher Murray Spivack. I was more than pleased to finally find a discussion on this incredible man, so I want to thank all of you!! I am so thrilled! I consider Murray the only zen master I ever studied drums with.

I’m from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil and like Chuck Silverman I also studied 2 years with Dick Wilson and 21/2 years with Murray! Wilson did mention what a fine player Chuck was on one occasion with me. I agree with most of the assessments Chuck makes on these two great teachers, although I would not call both of them geniuses. A genius is a person that makes something complex quite simple and of the two, I find only Murray excelled at this. Wilson often would leave me frustrated and confused and that is I think a negative effect to have on a student (he was a great man, very warm and intense and he tried to look after me, after all I was this foreign kid, struggling in a foreign land!). Murray however, always challenged and inspired me and was quick to answer ANY questions regarding why anything he said was the PROPER way to handle a pair of sticks. In fact, he ALWAYS welcomed that challenge. He used to say, “Respect between a student and his teacher should be the product of the student’s insistence on proof, and the teacher’s capacity to provide it. I find that students are very bright people. If a student doesn’t play something right, then I blame my explanation”.

There are a number of things that I read here that I would like to clear up. Since at the time I studied with Murray my student visa in the US had expired (I had studied at the PIT in Hollywood) and I did not know how much longer I would be able to live in Los Angeles, I took a lot of notes. Also upon my return to Brazil, I immediately started teaching the Spivack method since I didn’t want to forget any of its principles.

First I’d like to say that I found that only one aspect of the Spivack philosophy was discussed here. The only thing emphasized in this thread as the Spivack technique has been the grip, but there is so much more to discuss!! The concept of distance which he described as the “relative floor to the surface” is one thing. Another thing is what he referred to as the “continuity of the strokes”. There were what he referred to as the “transition points” and also what he brilliantly labeled as the “7 basics”.

Everything Chuck says about the grip is correct, but I’m sorry and I mean no disrespect, but I have to disagree with what is written on Chuck’s site as the Three Basic Strokes. There they are classified as: The Wrist Turn, The Rebound and The Accent Stroke. In reality Murray taught them as The Single Stroke, The Double Stroke (rebound) and the Flam. He said that everything we’ll ever play on a drum will be a combination of these strokes. However, to technically execute these strokes you will have to augment your repertoire to include 4 more basics: The Wrist Stroke, The Finger Stroke, The Down Stroke and The Up Stroke. So as you can see, you have 7 basic actions you can do with your drumsticks. I also had a feeling reading this thread that people interpret that Murray only taught or preferred the match grip. Nothing could be further from the truth!! He only accepted three grips (which had different fulcrum points) the German (which he called overhand) grip, the French (or timpani) grip and of course the Traditional grip. It was up to the student to decide which of these grips would be best suited to his style or taste or background.

Now, in order to execute an Up Stroke or a Double Stroke (rebound) you HAVE to be close to the striking surface of the drum, cymbal, tom-tom, etc… So Murray would refer to this as the relative floor. This floor HAD to be not one inch, but more like half an inch from the surface. So one of the trickiest things to study under Spivack was acquiring the control to ALWAYS stop your stroke THAT near to the pad or drumhead. I had a hard time with that and I really appreciate Murray’s patience with me questioning this all the time. However, after a few months of struggling through this I finally understood how an Up Stroke works, since it HAS to be a “stroke executed from a low position to a high position”. Murray strongly disagreed with what Mr Wilson described as “whipping motion” to execute an accent. After 2 years with Wilson he said my grip wasn’t entirely wrong (LOL!!) but that I was doing a sort of “ballet” with my hands! Practically, it meant that I was bending my wrist way too much to execute an Up Stroke. That was the only critique I ever heard of Wilson from him, I remember him saying, “I never taught him like that, he’s trying to improve on my concept and he can’t!” :-))

What Murray described as the Transition Points is to me the most brilliant and original concept of what proper drum playing is all about! He showed that to play a fast roll with rebounds is quite simple and to play slow strokes with your wrist is equally easy. However, playing slow rebounds and fast wrist strokes in sequence is an entirely different ball park! So you see, between the maximum speed of your wrist strokes and the minimum speed of your rebound is where you will find your transition points, and these are what you have to develop in order to be a proficient player. This is because when you are playing, unconsciously you are constantly switching between slow and fast rebounds and wrist strokes all the time! So developing these transition points are the crux of sounding relaxed as a player. These transition points were developed by doing his brilliant “roll chart”, which Richard copied; and later with the Stick Control book.

Richard Wilson taught me 78 snare drum rudiments, Murray taught me 48 (again the example of Murray being more concise, simpler), with Wilson I never memorized the rudiments but with Murray I really had them DOWN! The reason for this difference was the way he organized his teaching. He called this the Continuity of the Strokes. He was VERY critical of any teacher that randomly taught snare drum rudiments. He would say, “How can you teach a person to play a paradiddle before a flam if the former uses 6 of the basics and the latter only one!” So he had a system where one rudiment leads to the next by example and the way he explained this was simply brilliant! He would have you do a Flam Tap in one lesson and then the next week he would say, “Now add an extra note in that Flam Tap”, and you would do it and voilá! You instantly had a Flam Accent Number 1! THEN he would hand you the chart for that rudiment and give you a big smile, because you were already playing it! He was something else!

I know this missive is getting ridiculously long; I might get expelled from this forum on my first post! :-)) But I would still like to address some of the things written here.

From Matt Ritter: "For fast and fluid playing, it seems logical to place the fulcrum at the point on the stick that gives the best natural bounce. However, for a strong backbeat, I find it helpful to intentionally hold BEHIND this point. The downside, of course, is that the stick is less responsive when you depart from the main groove to do a fill. Any thoughts?"

It’s great that you wrote this because I made the same statement to Murray once and his answer (which TOTALLY convinced me on this matter) was that the ONLY reason to hold the stick behind the fulcrum point to play louder was to compensate for my lack of proper technique and control. Since I had little control of the fulcrum point I required more weight of the stick to have a snappy and crisp sound. That was the motivation for holding the stick further back. However, once I worked on truly controlling the stick, I never had that problem again, I could gain that whack without the extra weight.

On what Alex Luce wrote:

No. Respectfully Alex, Murray’s theories do not coincide with yours. Murray was less interested in the arms as joints and bones and more keen on how the muscles worked, since muscles are responsible for the movement our brains command. He was interested in creating levers with the hands and fingers to facilitate the rotation and bounce of the drumsticks. But the whole relationship was with how our arm and forearm muscles work and not the bones or joints.

Thanks to all for bearing with me here. If there are further questions I’ll be happy to respond. Writing all this was a wonderful drive down memory lane to my relationship with a true master. I miss both Richard and Murray very much, but what I truly believe and teach is the Spivack technique. It is very unfortunate that teachers such as these two are a dying breed.

[Alex Luce]

Hey Chris: Thanks for your post, really enjoyed it.

I went out to L.A. and took a lesson from Chuck Silverman a few weeks ago, and yes, I now understand that Mr. Spivack and Mr. Wilson and I have different concepts when it comes to the mechanics of drumming.

Regarding your comment "muscles are responsible for the movement our brains command." This is true, but let me provide the following quote from a kiniesology book called The Skeletal System and Muscle Function, by J.E. Muscolino (2006).

"In the human body, bones are levers, muscles create the forces that move these levers, and the axis of motion is located at the joint."

Since the bones and joints and the fundamental framework on which our body moves, any theory of drumming which does not account for these factors cannot be comprehensive or complete.

Regards,

Alex

[MattRitter]

I went out to L.A. and took a lesson from Chuck Silverman a few weeks ago, and yes, I now understand that Mr. Spivack and Mr. Wilson and I have different concepts when it comes to the mechanics of drumming.

Hey, Alex

Is it feasible for you to give a brief explanation of what you discovered to be the basic concepts held by Mr. Spivack and Mr. Wilson...and how they differ from your own concepts? I know it can be hard to sum up these types of things in a few words. Still, if it's possible, I would be extremely interested. Thanks. I hope you've been well.

[Alex Luce]

Hey Matt. Okay, here goes:

You're right, it's hard to put into words, and if anyone wants to correct what I say about Spivack's and Wilson's techniques I welcome it, since I only had one lesson with Chuck. But in general...Wilson took what Spivack taught him and came up with his own ideas, some which involve a whipping wrist motion and more forearm movement. Spivack's approach was very grip oriented, and there are a LOT of rules. The stick has to be held just so in order to execute the proper wrist motion. There was supposed to be very limited (if any) movement of the forearm and no upper arm movement. As Chris said, after each note the stick was always supposed to stop near the drumhead. And you would always start the next stroke from the same position, you weren't supposed to start the stroke with the stick raised.

I know Spivack was a great teacher, and that his approach produced some great players, but IMHO it is unnecessarily complicated...and I am not sure if it make sense in these modern times when so much power is required to play contemporary music. If you look at the great players today (and lot from back in the day too) they use their forearms and upper arms when playing. It is the only way they can get the power and speed the music requires.

As you know, my approach is based on the principle that each part of the arm naturally functions as a lever. For me, a drumming stroke is a powerful feeling of motion that involves the entire arm, and the last thing you want to do is inhibit its movement by trying to restrain parts of the limb from moving.

Also, I know you agree with me when I say that it is important not to get hung up on how to hold the sticks (the grip). Unlike Spivack, I believe the most important factor for successful playing is not how the sticks are held, but how the arms move when the drums are struck. I think that which kind of fulcrum/grip to use depends on what is being played, and can also be a matter of personal preference.

Alex

P.S. I am doing great, hope all is well in NYC!

[MattRitter]

Thanks, Alex! I appreciate the info and insights. Terrific!

Take care.

[Chris Oyens]

Oi Alex, thanks for your reply and I do want to make it clear that I do not agree or disagree with your philosoply regarding bones and joints as levers, it's not my specialty or expertise. I just wanted to point out what Spivack's philosophy was about, that's all.

What I DO want to point out, though is that you are terribly, terribly wrong about Murray's technique being complicated. I really would not consider that a matter of opinion. It will obviously work best for some players and some others will find some other school or philosophy to pursue. When we talk about the facility in applying Spivack's philosophy, we're talking about players like Louie Bellson, Chad Wackerman, Dave Garibaldi (he was the one that sent me to Murray) and Vinni Colaiuta to name just a few!! You REALLY cannot argue with that kind of resume! It was a fact, that if you stuck with Murray after the first 3 months you would DEVELOP your hands, period! It's a guarantee few teachers can give and it was a sign of pure genius!

For the sake or argument, I do not understand your point. With any other instrument you HAVE to be near the playing surface to have proper control; wether it be the bow of the violin, a pianist's hands on the keyboard, or the fretting hand on the guitar neck, so really why should it be any different with a snare drum?

[spinupspindown]

Chris, your long post on this topic was incredibly helpful. Thank you very much for taking the time to write all that out.

I have a followup question though, I hope you don't mind. What were Murray's thoughts on the application of his technique to drumset playing, where you need to move your arms around and deal with drums in diferent positions and at different angles?

[Chris Oyens]

Oi Spinupsindown! Thanks a lot for your reply. It's wonderful to be discussing this wonderful concept in drum teaching and I will gladly answer ANY question anyone has here regarding Murray Spivack and his philosophy on drum technique. So lets move on to your question.

I have a followup question though, I hope you don't mind. What were Murray's thoughts on the application of his technique to drumset playing, where you need to move your arms around and deal with drums in diferent positions and at different angles?

During my stay in the US (the 4 years I lived in Los Angeles) I noticed that, even though different teachers will show you different material, you could basically narrow the whole thing down to two particular schools of instruction. One is sitting down on the drumset with your teacher and he will show you basic technique, but the primary focus will be to work on grooves, solos, coordination and somehow you will gradually piece everything together and develop your playing and control of the instrument.

Adversely, the second school is one that will focus primarily on technique and the instructor will sit you down in front of only a snare drum or rubber pad. He will cover with you the rudiments, sight reading (snare drum pieces) and the Stick Control book. This school takes for granted that the student will develop his drumming style on his own.

Murray was 83 years old when I started studying with him! The very first thing he told me when I got there was that his method did not rely on style. He made a joke of it; he said his “style” of drumming was outdated by about 50 years! He told me if I wanted to learn “style” I should seek players that were up to date then and he gave me the examples of Vinnie Colaiuta and Dave Garibaldi and he warned me that I was young and if I wanted to develop my OWN style he would teach me all the necessary tools to develop it.

Now you see, I HAD already been to Vinnie for private lessons and Dave as well. Vinni showed me some of his incredible licks and grooves and Dave said he had nothing to show me, that he felt I was ready to face any gig, but that he felt I could be more relaxed with my hands and shoulders, so he referred me to Murray.

So to answer your question Murray did not teach me anything on the drumset, but he advised me to seek the current players on the scene, to listen to a lot of music (which I already did on a daily basis anyways!) and to do a lot of transcribing and that that would eventually lead to my own style of playing. This second school of teaching is in my opinion, MUCH more efficient that the first I mentioned above. I feel that teachers that focus on the set tend to confuse you by showing you their style and that a teacher’s duty is to provide you with the necessary tools so that you may develop your own way of playing. Of course, it is a bit frustrating to study all this technique and still find out that you will need some help (either from transcriptions or private drumset instruction, or both!) to mature fully into a player. However, I find this second school of teaching provides the right shortcuts for a drummer’s development. It was interesting to see that really proficient players that had gone through teachers that focused on the set would end up seeing an expert on technique to undo bad habits in their playing. Dave Weck (who had studied with Gary Chafee in NY) and went to Freddie Gruber as well as Vinnie Colaiuta (who studied with Gary Chester in Boston) who sought Spivack. Vinnie told me on one occasion that Murray really saved him; that he had this excruciating pain in his right thumb and Murray got rid of it with his exercises.

What you have to remember is that Murray would only see you for a couple of years and then say he was done with you and that you should just go about developing your style since you had all the technical aspects of the instrument down. I find that a much more honest and realistic approach. I WISH I had seen Murray first before any other instructor! It would have saved me a LOT of wasted time and unnecessary effort!

[MattRitter]

Hey, Chris

Thanks for all the valuable info about Murray Spivack's approach. I find this stuff fascinating. I have a question for you. In terms of the actual movement of the wrist itself...did Murray teach a simple bending of the wrist, a rotation of the forearm, or a combination of the two?

By the way, Weckl studied with Gary Chester, and Vinnie studied with Gary Chaffee...not the other way around. Still, the point you made was a good one.

Thanks!

[Chris Oyens]

Hey, Chris

Thanks for all the valuable info about Murray Spivack's approach. I find this stuff fascinating. I have a question for you. In terms of the actual movement of the wrist itself...did Murray teach a simple bending of the wrist, a rotation of the forearm, or a combination of the two?

By the way, Weckl studied with Gary Chester, and Vinnie studied with Gary Chaffee...not the other way around. Still, the point you made was a good one.

Thanks!

You are absolutely right and I apologize, I get those two teachers confused! :-))

Both Spivack and Dick Wilson taught the very same wrist stroke, they called it a wrist turn. So you start about a 1/2 inch from the playing surface (its relative floor) and you cock your wrist up and bring it down with minimal effort to produce a stroke. If you were to play an upstroke you would just bend your wrist DOWN and play a stroke from this low position to a high position then bring it down for a down stroke, thus you would get two strokes with the motion of one.

[Alex Luce]

Chris:

I was glad spinupspindown asked the question about the application of Murray's technique to drumset playing. This is what I don't understand, there is a disconnect between how Murray's famous students play and what I have learned about the method he taught. His famous students are all proficient at using their entire arms to generate incredible speed, power and precision on the drumset. So if they didn't learn that from Murray, did they just naturally have great drumset technique to begin with? It seems unlikely that Murray's method would fully apply to the drumset, and from what you said, he seems to have admitted to this. You just can't hop on the drumset and expect your arms to work right if you've never used them in your snare drum playing.

Regarding your comments on style: The physical mechanics needed for drumset playing don't just boil down to "style" any more than the mechanics needed for snare drum do. There is a right and wrong way to play the set, and we want to use our body in the most natural, efficient and relaxed way possible in order to generate powerful and precise playing movements. The method I teach is applicable to any type of playing where a stick is used. Snare drum,drumset, marimba--there shouldn't be difference--it is all "drumming".

On to your last point, you don't need to be near the playing surface to have control. This fact is proved by watching any great hard-hitting drumset player. You simply need to be using a drum stroke which uses the entire arm to control stick. Then you can move your hands into any position necessary to hit your equipment. For a great example of what I'm talking about, check out Seven Antonopoulos at http://vicfirth.com/artists/antonopoulos.html Scroll down and click on the Clip # 1 link.

Regards,

Alex

[Chris Oyens]

Alex,

If there is any disconnect I think that would have to be in your interpretations of how the Spivack method works. It’s very easy to apply your arm muscles as an extension of the ones in your wrists and forearms once you learn how to deal with them. So what you see the great players that study under Murray IS a result of what they learned with him. Just watch Louie Bellson and see how the arms are just an extension of his wrist movement (if you believe it is the other way around, then I really do not agree with you). THAT is the Spivack method in all its practicality. I NEVER said that Murray admitted his method would not apply to drumset! I just said he mentioned that his drumming “style” was passé. Once you master the laws of gravity on a single source and how the relative floor relates to that surface, you are free to apply these same principles on any surface or multiple surfaces. That was what was so brilliant with Murray. Even though we focused on a single source (the rubber pad or snare drum) we were using all the necessary muscles to play the whole set. There was absolutely no need to study drumset with Murray. Once I got home I would effortlessly apply what he taught me on the rest of the set, I would let my musicality take care of the rest. Chad Wackerman studied with him since he was a kid and look where he got! Not a single drumset lesson with Spivack, he just applied what he saw other players do and picked up different things with different players.

Now you really have me at a loss with Mr Antonopolos if you want to discuss technique with me. I think he is a wonderful player, but there is no subtlety in the clip you asked me to watch. He is just playing very hard throughout. However, where he to start playing some flams and roughs and rolls in there, I bet you he would have to change his playing so that his strokes were nearer to the surface of the snare drum. A better example I think would be someone like Tony Williams who used his arms as levers to play with an awesome amount of power but when he soloed you can see his arms just relaxing and watch him playing very near to the surface. He alternated between these two currents with incredible taste, finesse and authority. Same with Vinnie and Louie.

If you have a philosophy that is working just fine in your playing and your students that is great and by no means do I mean to imply that Murray’s concept is the only right one for proper drum playing, that would be absurd. But it seems to me (and forgive me if I’m wrong) that you want to downplay his importance in developing the amazing players that are out there using his techniques and I have to disagree with you on that since I witnessed the changes he made in those players and their playing. I don’t know of any other teacher who taught classical, rudimental, jazz and rock drummers (all name players!) with the same level of success!

[spinupspindown]

Oi Spinupsindown! Thanks a lot for your reply. It's wonderful to be discussing this wonderful concept in drum teaching and I will gladly answer ANY question anyone has here regarding Murray Spivack and his philosophy on drum technique. So lets move on to your question ....

Chris, thank you so much for that detailed reply. There was a lot to digest in there and I want to take a day to think about it before I ask any more big questions.

One small one though -- what do you mean by the 'relative floor'? The surface of the drum? Relative to what?

[Chris Oyens]

what do you mean by the 'relative floor'? The surface of the drum? Relative to what?

Relative to the surface you are playing. The relative floor is the place where you start and end your strokes. Since in drumming we are dealing with many different angles (surfaces) -- the toms have an angle, the cymbals have a different angle, etc… -- the relative floor will vary ever so slightly (in term of angle), nevertheless, the same technical principles will apply to any surface. If you focus on playing with a low relative floor (1/2” from the striking surface is good!) you will develop the appropriate control to execute any of the basics I mentioned in my first post. You CAN play any of the strokes with a higher floor, of course (like Buddy and Louie did for showmanship, since it looked so cool), but the underlying philosophy in everything Murray taught was “maximum efficiency with minimal effort”.

Again an excellent example of how this technique works is watching Vinnie Colaiuta. Watch how near the surface he stops his stick when playing the ride cymbal.

[bjparadiddle]

I had a drum teacher once tell me: "You know, Elvin Jones holds his sticks wrong."

He didn't like it when I asked him to show me Elvin's grip.

During the 1950s, Max Roach enrolled at, I believe, the Manhattan School of Music, where he was told that he held the sticks "wrong."

Blakey used an index finger fulcrum; didn't hurt him a bit.

Tony Williams insisted that the stick was to be gripped with the last two fingers, not the index or middle.

All those masters like Moeller, Gladstone, Spivak, etc. were obviously great teachers of drum technique. But rudimental mastery is a lesser factor in becoming a good drummer.

I think we can get way to hung up on this "grip" thing. It's easy to fall into--because you think a certain technique will give you a singe stroke roll that sounds like a lawn mower.

I just spoke with a young drummer who spent a summer playing drums in L.A. While visiting, he took a lesson from Dave Weckl, who showed him the "Gruber" style grip. Then, he took a lesson from Jeff Hamilton, who said of his Gruber grip: "Why're you holding the sticks like that?"

There are many paths to the waterfall.

[spinupspindown]

Chris -- thanks for clearing that up (about the relative floor). Half an inch from the surface! And I was thinking that stopping the stick at 1" was difficult enough.

Seems to me that if your 'home base' is just 1/2" from the surface, then you are generally practicing at a very quiet volume, except for when you do accents. Is that right? Or do you develop the ability to hit harder even at that distance? (Obviously I don't have that ability, hahah.)

What about how you execute doubles and flams? Most if not all, of the discussion in this thread so far as been about upstrokes and downstrokes. And those are singles. Did Murray have different ideas about what to do to execute doubles? Or lots of consecutive singles?

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I am very interested in knowing more about the Spivack teachings, as he pops up from time to time here. However, I have problems understanding the thinking behind the "relative floor". To me, it sounds like another way of saying "stick height".

Dom Famularo teaches stick height: assuming a wrist or finger generated stroke, the stick height will determine the power of the stroke. So you stop the stick, or bring it up, to the appropriate height for the next stroke. If you are playing softly, you will go for a very low stick height. For accents, you bring it up higher. The evenness of sound between your hands is determined by the evenness of stick height.

If all we are saying is that it is a good idea to be able to control the sticks close to the playing surface, I am of course all for!

Casper

[Chris Oyens]

All those masters like Moeller, Gladstone, Spivak, etc. were obviously great teachers of drum technique. But rudimental mastery is a lesser factor in becoming a good drummer.

I think we can get way to hung up on this "grip" thing. It's easy to fall into--because you think a certain technique will give you a singe stroke roll that sounds like a lawn mower.

I just spoke with a young drummer who spent a summer playing drums in L.A. While visiting, he took a lesson from Dave Weckl, who showed him the "Gruber" style grip. Then, he took a lesson from Jeff Hamilton, who said of his Gruber grip: "Why're you holding the sticks like that?"

There are many paths to the waterfall.

Your statemets are true in many ways, but frankly I find them a little misleading. Sure our ultimate goal as drummers is to become accomplished musicians and you can only "get there" once technique is discarded for higher things like art and expression. When we try to define what great playing is, there are simply too many things that are just too subjective to pass on to our students. Technique should NOT be one of them, but unfortunately for us drummers it often is. There are too many teachers that haven't a clue what they are talking about, not because they are evil or anything like that, but because they were taught wrong, period. There are many paths to the waterfall, but some of them will have shortcuts and unless you are a fool, you should try and focus on those.

If you're a pianist you will find that there are different approaches to proper technique, but you will pick one particular school and follow it and you will learn how to play. It's that simple and we're talking about the piano, a percussion instrument right? So why should it be different with drumming technique? Elvin Jones is my favorite drummer, but I would starve if I played like him here in Brazil! I need to have a style in drumming where I can adapt to many different idioms and styles quick, because that's what my employers here demand (it's a funny way to put it, still it's true!). Murray gave me the tools to develop that kind of malleable approach. I wanted to be well versed in any style, to play very relaxed and to be a great reader. Murray provided me with all those tools. I know there are many teachers out there capable of this and I think they are the ones we should seek. Technique is something that SHOULD be objective and accessible to all, it REALLY shouldn't be a matter of opinion.

Again I will say that the Spivack method wasn't all about the grip, it was the whole concept of drumming technique which included sight reading and the optimization of using our scales (rudiments). You will never hear a pianist or guitarist scoff at his scales, so we shouldn't be that way either when regarding our rudiments, they are an invaluable tool for the mastery of our instrument.

[MattRitter]

I am very interested in knowing more about the Spivack teachings, as he pops up from time to time here. However, I have problems understanding the thinking behind the "relative floor". To me, it sounds like another way of saying "stick height".

Dom Famularo teaches stick height: assuming a wrist or finger generated stroke, the stick height will determine the power of the stroke. So you stop the stick, or bring it up, to the appropriate height for the next stroke. If you are playing softly, you will go for a very low stick height. For accents, you bring it up higher. The evenness of sound between your hands is determined by the evenness of stick height.

If all we are saying is that it is a good idea to be able to control the sticks close to the playing surface, I am of course all for!

Casper

Hey, Casper

I must say - I feel almost the opposite of you. I feel that starting a stroke from various heights with no prep is great to learn for control, but there are reasons why it's not very practical. In fact, nobody seems to do it in actual playing situations- not even the guys who teach it!

Let me explain what I mean here:

For a loud stroke, many will teach to start the stroke high rather than starting low and quickly "prepping" to a high height. In fact, they refer to the prepping approach as "wasted motion." They use that phrase quite a lot. However, there are some flaws in this analysis. First of all, it is not comfortable or safe to keep the wrist bent up for extended periods in between strokes, just because those strokes are loud ones. Case in point- I have never seen a drummer keep his snare stick raised up in the air in between backbeats. How about you? Have you ever seen that? That would be pretty uncomfortable. Also, unless pure forearm rotation is used, the raised stick will mean a constant bend in the wrist. That translates into unsafe pressure on the carpal tunnel.

Furthermore, starting low and prepping before a stroke is not "wasted motion" at all. That motion has potential to generate more volume than a stroke which simply starts high. Let's talk about the physics here. Let's say you wanted a very loud stroke. As mentioned above, some would teach to start the stroke from a high height. For argument's sake, let's assume that height is a foot and a half. OK- so the tip of the stick now has a foot and a half of distance to gain velocity as it approaches the drum. However, if you start with the stick close to the drum and then quickly prep up to a foot and a half and come down for the stroke, the stick tip has now actually traveled twice the distance- 3 feet! That means much more velocity can be achieved, creating a much louder stroke. Yes, some energy may be lost in the reverse of direction between the prep and the stroke, but a lot of that energy is maintained. By the way, I am not talking about a Moeller whip. A Moeller whip involves this same principle too, but even without the Moeller whip movement, the doubling of the distance traveled makes for more velocity potential.

Pretty much every drummer intuitively knows these things. If you give a drumstick to a child and ask him to hit the drum hard, he will not hover his stick in the air and then suddenly bring it down. He will probably start low and then do a quick up and down to hit the drum. After the stroke, he will probably keep the stick down. Very intuitive.

Now, of course, this doesn't mean a drummer can do without learning rebound. When playing a series of strokes in quick succession, there is no time to keep stopping and starting the stick motion. So, instead, the stick is allowed to rebound up. For example, a series of moderate to fast 8th notes at a loud volume would be played as rebound strokes, with each stroke starting at and returning to a high position.

By the way, I have studied with many of the people that you mention in your posts as the masters. I took many private lessons with Jim Chapin in the mid 1990's. Years later, I went to Joe Morello. He said something like "You don't need to take lessons from me. It looks like Jimmy did a fine job with you." Over the years, I've also taken a few lessons from Dom. We always end up talking about stuff other than hand technique. In fact, during a lesson, he once said "Your hands are great," and he steered us toward working on something different. I am not claiming to be a hand technique master. I have quite a lot that I would like to improve in my hand technique. In fact, I'm currently working with a drum corps specialist. I am only telling you my lesson history because I want you to see that I've worked with the very same people you idolize, and I've gotten good reviews from them. So, I am completely aware of the concepts you are talking about. I just believe that there are other factors involved, which occasionally get misunderstood or miscommunicated.

[Chris Oyens]

I must say - I feel almost the opposite of you. I feel that starting a stroke from various heights with no prep is great to learn for control, but there are reasons why it's not very practical. In fact, nobody seems to do it in actual playing situations- not even the guys who teach it!

Brilliantly put! I agree 100%! And it's no surprise that you have great hands since Chapin and Dom are masters in their own right!

And Casper, you are right, relative floor and stick height are one and the same.

[Chris Oyens]

Seems to me that if your 'home base' is just 1/2" from the surface, then you are generally practicing at a very quiet volume, except for when you do accents. Is that right? Or do you develop the ability to hit harder even at that distance? (Obviously I don't have that ability, hahah.)

What about how you execute doubles and flams? Most if not all, of the discussion in this thread so far as been about upstrokes and downstrokes. And those are singles. Did Murray have different ideas about what to do to execute doubles? Or lots of consecutive singles?

I’m glad you mentioned this since it is one of the most common misconceptions about the up stroke. An up stroke does NOT equal a single! It is a different “basic”, to use Murray’s terminology. An up stroke would be better defined as simply a shortcut. It is a way to execute a stroke from a low position to a high, thus you are using the motion to lift the stick in a very practical way; to execute a stroke. So an example would be in playing a series of alternating flams (rL lR rL lR) to use up strokes for the grace notes and down strokes for the primary notes. That is a fine example in not wasting ANY energy since you are using the motion to raise the stick (which you would have to raise anyways!) to execute the soft note of the full stroke (Flam). Now if you take a 5 stroke roll, the upstroke will then be applied on the first group of doubles since it will be that same hand that will play the accent on the down stroke, so as you can see, now you are using an up stroke ALONG with a double (rebound). So you see, when you execute this effortlessly you can begin to understand how Buddy and Louie could play so fast and comfortably at the same time, it is no longer a mystery!! They used these shortcuts to their benefit and so can we!

I posted on this forum Murray’s exercise for singles, in case you are interested. It’s in answer to a post on how to execute fast singles.

The concept of playing 1/2” from the surface is to be near the area where you will execute a stroke so that you can play up strokes with minimal effort. But to answer your question, to play an ordinary stroke you just need to turn your wrist and play lightly, that will give you adequate volume without using physical force. If you need a louder stroke, then of course, you will use a little more of your forearm to get more mass and consequently, more volume into it. Furthermore, you should NOT add force when turning your wrist, so that is not a limitation you have! A wrist stroke must be soft, if you need a louder stroke you will add a little more weight with your arms just like the guy in the video Alex Luce referred us to.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

.....
And Casper, you are right, relative floor and stick height are one and the same.

If the stick is resting, like, say, my left hand in a slow blues between backbeats, it is just relaxed somewhere close to the head. The stroke will be some variation of Moeller whip, starting and ending in low position.

If I am playing single strokes with increasing volume, my sticks will start being very close to the head, then move farther away as volume increases. In other words, stick height dictates volume, and stick height is highly variable.

It seems we agree on that, but then I don't see the idea behind a "relative floor of 0.5 inch", since, if you are playing FFF single strokes, or medium fast and loud hihat 8ths, well, it just wont apply....

Casper

[MattRitter]

If the stick is resting, like, say, my left hand in a slow blues between backbeats, it is just relaxed somewhere close to the head. The stroke will be some variation of Moeller whip, starting and ending in low position.

If I am playing single strokes with increasing volume, my sticks will start being very close to the head, then move farther away as volume increases. In other words, stick height dictates volume, and stick height is highly variable.

It seems we agree on that, but then I don't see the idea behind a "relative floor of 0.5 inch", since, if you are playing FFF single strokes, or medium fast and loud hihat 8ths, well, it just wont apply....

Casper

Hey, Casper

As you said...with a backbeat, you would not wait with your stick held up in the air between strokes. Instead, you would "rest" it at a low height between strokes. So, keeping the stick at a low height between strokes is a factor of the time between strokes, not the volume of the strokes. Your own statement about the backbeat is confirmation of this.

With a series of single strokes played loud and SLOW (for example quarter notes played at 40 BPM) the sticks would rest at a low height between strokes. Then, the stick would "prep" up to a high height and quickly come back down for the moment of impact. Yes, this could be done in Moeller style, but that is not a requirement. A formal lift of the stick would also work. I can't imagine anyone executing this loud and slow series of notes by hovering their sticks in the air between strokes- maybe while practicing, but never while performing.

If you are playing loud and FAST (or even medium), that is when each stroke would strike the head and rebound up to a high height. There is no time to rest low between strokes, so the sticks would be in constant motion, with each stroke starting and finishing high.

Does this explanation make sense? I am almost certain that this is how you yourself play, even if you don't think of it this way.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Hey, Casper

As you said...with a backbeat, you would not wait with your stick held up in the air between strokes. Instead, you would "rest" it at a low height between strokes. So, keeping the stick at a low height between strokes is a factor of the time between strokes, not the volume of the strokes. Your own statement about the backbeat is confirmation of this.

With a series of single strokes played loud and SLOW (for example quarter notes played at 40 BPM) the sticks would rest at a low height between strokes. Then, the stick would "prep" up to a high height and quickly come back down for the moment of impact. Yes, this could be done in Moeller style, but that is not a requirement. A formal lift of the stick would also work. I can't imagine anyone executing this loud and slow series of notes by hovering their sticks in the air between strokes- maybe while practicing, but never while performing.

If you are playing loud and FAST (or even medium), that is when each stroke would strike the head and rebound up to a high height. There is no time to rest low between strokes, so the sticks would be in constant motion, with each stroke starting and finishing high.

Does this explanation make sense? I am almost certain that this is how you yourself play, even if you don't think of it this way.

Oh, absolutely! I just had an issue with the 1/2 inch thing, that's all! We agree completely.
Casper

[Alex Luce]

With a series of single strokes played loud and SLOW (for example quarter notes played at 40 BPM) the sticks would rest at a low height between strokes.

Actually, if playing on a rebounding surface, the hands could stay down while the sticks bounce up, AKA Dom's Exercise for the Free Stroke. So of course it is possible to have the sticks in a high position without holding them up with the wrists (something I don't think you mentioned). In fact, when playing the snare drum loud, it's preferable to play this way (with the exception of rimshots, which produce minimal rebound).

If drummers try to keep the sticks at a 1/2 inch floor while playing loud, they will choke all the sound out of the drum, because of the tight grip that is necessary to do that. If the drummer plays that way a lot, they may also start to suffer from "stick shock", especially if they are drumming on a hard rubber practice pad.

Regards,

Alex

[MattRitter]

Actually, if playing on a rebounding surface, the hands could stay down while the sticks bounce up, AKA Dom's Exercise for the Free Stroke. So of course it is possible to have the sticks in a high position without holding them up with the wrists (something I don't think you mentioned).

True. I actually have tended to use this motion quite a lot over the years. Recently, a drum corps specialist told me it would be better for me to follow the stick up more with my wrist. That way, the stick will stay in the hand more completely, and the fingers will have better access to it.

[Alex Luce]

Yes, that is also true. And when you do move your wrist up some of the rebound energy is dissipated by that motion. It's trying to keep the stick down when it wants to go up (which I know you are not advocating) that causes problems.

[MattRitter]

Yes, that is also true. And when you do move your wrist up some of the rebound energy is dissipated by that motion. It's trying to keep the stick down when it wants to go up (which I know you are not advocating) that causes problems.

Good to talk with you about this, Alex. I'm somewhat conflicted because it seems that there are at least 3 ways to handle the situation of slow, loud singles:

1) Allow the stick to rebound up, and follow it up with the wrist. This would be like the Free Stroke. Advantage here is you're allowing the rebound (rather than fighting it), and you're still keeping the stick in your hand. Disadvantage is that you're keeping your wrist bent, which is not very relaxed.

2) Allow the stick to rebound up, but keep the wrist low. This is somewhat like the Exercise For The Free Stroke. Advantage here is that it's a very fluid and relaxed approach. Disadvantage is that the fingers lose some control over the stick. In fact, the pinky might not reach at all.

3) Stop the stick low (called a "down stroke") by using the fingers as the brakes. Advantage here is you can potentially make each stroke louder because there is a "wind up" before each stroke which adds to the total distance traveled by the stick. This can increase the velocity of the stroke. Disadvantage is that you're choking the rebound each time.

So, I'm not sure on this one. I can see an argument for either of the 3, and I'm actually quite comfortable using either of the 3. During this thread, I've been thinking that option 3 is what a drummer would most likely do in a real performance situation. I don't think I've often seen a drummer with their sticks hovering in the air for long periods in between strokes. It also sounds like option 3 is what Murray Spivack advocated. But, now you've got me questioning it. Any other thoughts?

[Chris Oyens]

If drummers try to keep the sticks at a 1/2 inch floor while playing loud, they will choke all the sound out of the drum, because of the tight grip that is necessary to do that. If the drummer plays that way a lot, they may also start to suffer from "stick shock", especially if they are drumming on a hard rubber practice pad.

I disagree. What will make a difference in this process is precisely that: THE PROCESS. You first have to learn how to properly turn your wrist, that means soft strokes with a very low metronome setting. THEN you will gradually start adding the up stroke and the rebound and here is the big payoff! I will say this again, you cannot play a relaxed and efficient up stroke if you are far from the surface. You will need to work your muscles to exaustion and it will not work for you as a shortcut. Regarding your comment on the tight grip, after a year studying with Murray we worked on the WHOLE Stick Control book at 1/2 note = 80 bpm on the metronome. What that did to my grip was to loosen it up completely while ALWAYS stopping at a very low floor.6 months later we were covering the Accents and Rebounds book, the most technical book I ever encountered! Very tough indeed. However, my grip was totally relaxed by then and I could really use my up stroke to use quite a bit of forearm and have a very loud attack on my down strokes. An accent on the Spivack technique is NOT stopped by squeezing the stick! You have a triangular shock absorbtion that is very effective and creates no tension (just like an arm lock in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu) with your guide (thumb and index), your fulcrum (first crack of middle finger) and the back of your hand.

I think that for Matt and Alex to question which technique would work best shows their level of commitment to their craft, but again, remember I said that the Spivack philosophy ain't all about the grip? You have a gradual adaptation which he called the "continuity of the strokes". I'll give an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFZfOLbnBwI This clip of Dave Weckl showing the Moeller Technique is great. However, I find that the WAY he shows it makes it impossible for someone to truly grasp this (especially if he/she is at beginner/intermediate level!). From my pespective (and yes of course I'm biased to the Spivack technique, have you noticed? LOL!) he is showing the Moeller Technique with what he calls "triplets" but what they really are is triple rebounds, since you SHOULD use an upstroke to start this stroke. I remember that with Murray, this was the LAST rudiment he taught me!! We were in the beginning of the "Accents and Rebounds" book when he showed me this rudiment. So this is ADVANCED stuff, ok? So how are you going to teach someone a whole philosophy of playing (Murray always spoke highly of Moeller, whom he had met personally) from what is probaly one of the most difficult strokes?? You cannot get from A to Z without considering the other letters of the alphabet.

[Alex Luce]

Good to talk with you about this, Alex. I'm somewhat conflicted because it seems that there are at least 3 ways to handle the situation of slow, loud singles:

1) Allow the stick to rebound up, and follow it up with the wrist. This would be like the Free Stroke. Advantage here is you're allowing the rebound (rather than fighting it), and you're still keeping the stick in your hand. Disadvantage is that you're keeping your wrist bent, which is not very relaxed.

2) Allow the stick to rebound up, but keep the wrist low. This is somewhat like the Exercise For The Free Stroke. Advantage here is that it's a very fluid and relaxed approach. Disadvantage is that the fingers lose some control over the stick. In fact, the pinky might not reach at all.

3) Stop the stick low (called a "down stroke") by using the fingers as the brakes. Advantage here is you can potentially make each stroke louder because there is a "wind up" before each stroke which adds to the total distance traveled by the stick. This can increase the velocity of the stroke. Disadvantage is that you're choking the rebound each time.


Matt: You've summed up the possibilities pretty well in these posts. I would use option 1 or 2, which I believe are both valid. The drum will sing more with option 2, but if I was in a performance situation and felt a little nervous or excited, I would use the full stroke of option 1 for more control. The full stroke could be more tiresome, but realistically, how long would you have to do it for? Of course if I was playing rimshots, I might stop the sticks lower, because of the lack of rebound.

Option 3 could also be called the control or "check" stroke which has it's origins in drum corps. You might recall however, that in JoJo Mayer's video he shows how to do this stroke AND let the stick vibrate. You let the stick leave your hand at the base of the stroke and catch it low as it bounces up. This really allows the drum to sing. I think it can be a good technique for playing backbeats on the snare drum (not using rimshots), but it is something I am working on and not really good at yet.

By the way, in general I don't believe you can pull the stick back up as fast as it can bounce up on a hard surface. At least, I can't. So I will only pull it back up if I need or want to.

Regards,

Alex

[Chris Oyens]

As I mentioned earlier, the Spivack method requires you develop a 3-way shock absorption system with your grip. Your thumb and index finger act as a guiding point, your fulcrum (first crack of third finger in German grip) will rise slightly and the back of your hand acts as a cushion. This way your wrist will not tighten up and there will be no tension; besides the suppression of a rebound is a fundamental principle in a system that advocates “maximal efficiency with minimal effort” – you control the rebound and not the other way around! So if your grip is evenly distributed guiding the stick, there should be no tension. It really is similar to a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu arm lock where if you distribute your weight evenly on someone’s arm you can immobilize him even if he is twice your weight.

So I will stick (literally! Hehe) with Matt’s option number 3 because if I need to execute an up stroke after a loud down stroke, the most efficient way to play it will be if I’m near the striking surface.

[ChuckSilverman]

I need to read the recent posts here, when I have the time. (Not when I have "time". :-) )
with my studies with Murray and Richard Wilson, I was instructed to "stop the stick down, one inch from the pad and parallet to the floor of the stroke". This was a constant throughout the technique studies. When playing "loud", i.e. a downstroke, stopping the stick down was accomplished by a squeeze upwards toward the palm by the middle finger, aka the fulcrum. for the upstroke(s), I trained to bend the wrist forward which resulted in a slight release in the tension in the fulcrum, resulting in the stroke(s) on the way "up".

Chuck

[Boomka]

I need to read the recent posts here, when I have the time. (Not when I have "time". :-) )
with my studies with Murray and Richard Wilson, I was instructed to "stop the stick down, one inch from the pad and parallet to the floor of the stroke". This was a constant throughout the technique studies. When playing "loud", i.e. a downstroke, stopping the stick down was accomplished by a squeeze upwards toward the palm by the middle finger, aka the fulcrum. for the upstroke(s), I trained to bend the wrist forward which resulted in a slight release in the tension in the fulcrum, resulting in the stroke(s) on the way "up".

Chuck

And what of two loud notes in a row with the same hand?

[Chris Oyens]

And what of two loud notes in a row with the same hand?

It would really depend on what you would be playing next. The most efficient way to play those two loud strokes of course would be to make four motions, up-down-up-down. You could use an upstroke to execute an accent as well, then you would be dealing with two motions (half the effort) but to make a proper accent that up stroke would probably need to start from the elbow.

[mikeray]

Just wanted to say a large thanks for the great information, which I will doubtlessly need to read quite a number of times, and for the gracious, candid and respectful conversation.. .you guys rock!

[Chris Oyens]

I found this on the Smithsonian Jazz site. An interview with Louie Bellson and this is what he says about Murray Spivack:

Bellson: Yeah. Murray Spivack took me through that book (Stick Control). I thought I was a good player
before I went to study with Murray Spivack. Somebody recommended him. I went up to
see him in North Hollywood. He said, “Okay.” He says, “I want you to play for me on a
practice pad.” He said, “Play me a single-stroke roll. Open it up, and then close it. Play
me a five-stroke roll. Seven-stroke roll. Play me a flam. Flam accent.” This went on for
about a half hour. Then he said, “See that chair over there. Go sit down.” So I sat down.
He said, “When I finally get the boards off your hands, I’ll make a good player out of
you.” I said, “Oh.” I’ve been looking for this guy for a long time. I thought I played well.
He took me through my paces. I studied off and on, on and off with him for a couple of
years. Maintained a friendship right up until he passed away. He was a great teacher,
great player. Did you see that video that’s out, where he’s giving me a lesson? A big
picture of him in the front. It says, “Murray Spivack giving Louie Bellson a lesson.”
What he did was, we went to the basics. He said, “Just play a single for me.” So I did
this. I did a up-stroke and down-stroke. He said, “No, no, no, no, no, no. That’s not right. Just play the right and left hand.” All he wanted was a tap. So he’s chastising me, and I
left it on the video. I said, “No. Leave it on the video. It’s a lesson.” Dave Garibaldi’s
also on that, because he studied with Murray too. You know something? You’re going to preach – you guys are both drummers. As a young kid, I was puzzled by the rudiments. I was all for them, because I knew that I went to Battle Creek, Michigan, for three straight years and won competitions – first-class competitions – on the parade drum with gut snares. So I know about rudiments. But naming the rudiments always puzzled me, because I was taught, like you guys, a stroke is when you employ the use of the full arm, wrist, and everything. That’s a stroke. A tap is when you use the wrist only. So when you tell me to play a five-stroke roll, I’m going to go 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 5. Right? When it’s a number 5 roll, it’s a two-bounce tap roll. A bounce is one attack and two sounds, as in ta-da ta-da tum, ba-da ba-da bum, ba-da ba-da.So when you tell me to play a five-stroke roll, I went – I showed that to Murray – Murray Spivak. He said, “Why you little rascal you. Where’d you think about that?” So I came out with the road chart, showing the number 7 roll is three bounces and a tap. Technically, that’s what it is. I showed that to Steve Gadd. Steve Gadd said, “You’re right. You’re completely right. I never thought of that.” But I thought of it. I pat myself on the back.

[ChuckSilverman]

And what of two loud notes in a row with the same hand?

Two loud strokes with the same hand...First thing I think of is make two wrist turns. Now, this is thinking "technically", playing on a pad. If I was playing on a drumset and wanted to make those two loud notes, I'd make two quick downstrokes. The downstroke can be made quickly, quick enough to get those loud notes out.

CS

[Chris Oyens]

It's so difficult to isolate one or two strokes like that. It would really depend on the scenario or context you would be playing them in. But Chuck is absolutely correct, two simple wrist turns will do the trick. Of course if you are talking about heavy metal loud, then I guess you would start your two strokes from your elbow because for that style you need VOLUME!

Another example that comes to mind would be the two accents played in a double paradiddle (if you want to play it with two accents, most people play it with one but Murray would cover it both ways), at a fast tempo you will use the last double stroke in the rudiment to play an up stroke gathering momentum for the two accents.

[Boomka]

Two loud strokes with the same hand...First thing I think of is make two wrist turns. Now, this is thinking "technically", playing on a pad. If I was playing on a drumset and wanted to make those two loud notes, I'd make two quick downstrokes. The downstroke can be made quickly, quick enough to get those loud notes out.

CS

That's what I would have thought. What I was trying to clarify was your comment that stopping 1" from the surface you are playing was a "constant" throughout all exercises. So my question was trying to sort out what happens from there... I take it that you would stop 1" from the surface in some situations, but not others?

[Chris Oyens]

I take it that you would stop 1" from the surface in some situations, but not others?

The key part of your question is the word "stop". Murray would ask you to always stop a 1/2" to 1" from the striking surface because he said you never really knew what kind of stroke you would be using next. So were you to use an up stroke or rebound it gives you more control to be near the surface. That was in TOTAL accord with the way Dick Wilson taught as well, BTW. Both teachers wanted you to play VERY near the striking surface. If I stopped the drumstick 2" from the surface Murray would say, "You're stopping it too high, bring that stick to the floor!"

[Wavelength]

Murray would ask you to always stop a 1/2" to 1" from the striking surface because he said you never really knew what kind of stroke you would be using next.

The thing is, more often than not you do know what kind of a stroke you're playing next. If I know I'm going to play a fff single stroke roll for eight bars, I'm most certainly not going to stop the sticks near the surface. While I appreciate the immense stick control you achieve by using this method, there are better alternatives available for certain situations.

[Boomka]

The key part of your question is the word "stop". Murray would ask you to always stop a 1/2" to 1" from the striking surface because he said you never really knew what kind of stroke you would be using next. So were you to use an up stroke or rebound it gives you more control to be near the surface. That was in TOTAL accord with the way Dick Wilson taught as well, BTW. Both teachers wanted you to play VERY near the striking surface. If I stopped the drumstick 2" from the surface Murray would say, "You're stopping it too high, bring that stick to the floor!"

Yes, Chris, it makes a lot of sense to play near the surface for 90% of what we do. I've been taught the same way. However, having been schooled by guys from the Stone/Morello side of things, if I know - and often I do know - that I'm playing two accents in a row, there is no stopping the stick. Down and back up to a high position for the next accent is the way to fly. I wonder if some of this would be better understood if the basic terminology that Spivack used were to be layed out systematically, if you have the time. I've been meaning to respond to your email with similar questions, and if you have the time, it would be love-r-ly...

Most of my questions here are deliberately a little thick-headed. I'm trying to get an understanding of Spivack's methods, and I figure the best way is to put myself in the position of a rank beginner. Thanks for being patient - this goes to Chuck as well - with the questioning.

[Chris Oyens]

Yes, Chris, it makes a lot of sense to play near the surface for 90% of what we do. I've been taught the same way. However, having been schooled by guys from the Stone/Morello side of things, if I know - and often I do know - that I'm playing two accents in a row, there is no stopping the stick. Down and back up to a high position for the next accent is the way to fly. I wonder if some of this would be better understood if the basic terminology that Spivack used were to be layed out systematically, if you have the time. I've been meaning to respond to your email with similar questions, and if you have the time, it would be love-r-ly...

Most of my questions here are deliberately a little thick-headed. I'm trying to get an understanding of Spivack's methods, and I figure the best way is to put myself in the position of a rank beginner. Thanks for being patient - this goes to Chuck as well - with the questioning.

For me it's a pleasure and an honor to discuss the Spivack method with anyone who is willing to listen, argue, retort, whatever; it really does not matter how thick headed or stubborn the question is! ;-)

I think you are right, if you were to play two quick loud notes in succession, you do not have to worry about the stick stopping between them in a low position. What I meant is that whenever you need to rest the stick, as a rule, it should be in that 1/2" to 1" from the striking surface.

[ChuckSilverman]

For me it's a pleasure and an honor to discuss the Spivack method with anyone who is willing to listen, argue, retort, whatever; it really does not matter how thick headed or stubborn the question is! ;-)

I think you are right, if you were to play two quick loud notes in succession, you do not have to worry about the stick stopping between them in a low position. What I meant is that whenever you need to rest the stick, as a rule, it should be in that 1/2" to 1" from the striking surface.

Interesting discussion and worthy of some thought. hmmm....I was taught, first by Richard Wilson then by Murray Spivack, to "stop the stick down, one inch above the pad and parallel to the floor of the stroke". I remember most of the "Wilson-isms" and "Spivack-isms" to this day. Remember, this is all done on a pad and is part of the practice regimen. If I was actually playing on a drumset, I'd let nature dictate how to make the two quick loud notes.

I remember, specifically with Richard, how he was so adamant that I stop the stick down, no matter the tempo. Murray was a little less strict, that's for sure. But, if the tempo allowed it, the stick should stop down. In this way, you are really developing the technique of the "full" wrist turn.

Chuck

[Chris Oyens]

But, if the tempo allowed it, the stick should stop down. In this way, you are really developing the technique of the "full" wrist turn.
Chuck

Excellent point. What I also remember about Murray and I have mentioned this here before, is that he stressed that you never knew what kind of stroke you would need after ending a previous one. So in case that you needed a rebound or an up stroke it was very important that you were very close to the striking surface.

[Toby_Jackson]

he stressed that you never knew what kind of stroke you would need after ending a previous one.

I'll thank Chris first off for all of the great information he's provided in this thread, but I do have to call him (and be extension Murray) on this one. I most definitely do know what my next stroke will be after any particular note. If your brain couldn't think ahead, you would never be able to link phrases together musically. I understand that Murray's lessons were based in technique and conditioning, but to discount this fundamental ability of playing music seems in error to me.

[diosdude]

I was bored the other day and actually perused through this entire thread. One thing that caught my attention was the grip of the stick using this technique. Can someone clarify the correct grip for me, definitively? Sometimes, I play with lighter, shorter sticks, specifically vater fatback 3a's and the sticks always naturally slide down to the point where i have gripped the pivot, chapin style, all the way at the end of the stick with the pinky not even able to grip the shaft because theres no shaft there to grip. Is that the way spivack players play or am i reading that incorrectly? When i play longer sticks though, like my Ralph Hardiman dc3s'es I've still got 2" of shaft past my pinky which gives me a bit more leverage for mohler.

[Boomka]

I was bored the other day and actually perused through this entire thread. One thing that caught my attention was the grip of the stick using this technique. Can someone clarify the correct grip for me, definitively? Sometimes, I play with lighter, shorter sticks, specifically vater fatback 3a's and the sticks always naturally slide down to the point where i have gripped the pivot, chapin style, all the way at the end of the stick with the pinky not even able to grip the shaft because theres no shaft there to grip. Is that the way spivack players play or am i reading that incorrectly? When i play longer sticks though, like my Ralph Hardiman dc3s'es I've still got 2" of shaft past my pinky which gives me a bit more leverage for mohler.

There have been several threads with Chuck Silverman (incl. his dedicated thread) where this topic has been discussed. You might also want to check out some video of Chuck playing on his website. There, the Spivack grip is on display in all its glory.

[ChuckSilverman]

I've almost finished a DVD production dedicated to my studies with Murray and Richard Wilson. Before this production is released, Cherry Lane Music will produce and release The Latin Funk Connection. I've been transcribing the DVD for PDF lessons. I'll try and grab some video from the Murray/Richard "Beginning Technique" DVD and put them online.
It's great to be able to share the technique I learned from Murray and Richard. I was very fortunate to study with both of these real Masters of the snare drum.

[Chris Oyens]

I'll thank Chris first off for all of the great information he's provided in this thread, but I do have to call him (and be extension Murray) on this one. I most definitely do know what my next stroke will be after any particular note. If your brain couldn't think ahead, you would never be able to link phrases together musically. I understand that Murray's lessons were based in technique and conditioning, but to discount this fundamental ability of playing music seems in error to me.

Oh no, don't blame Murray!! Blame me and me only! As I mentioned earlier Murray used to say, “Respect between a student and his teacher should be the product of the student’s insistence on proof, and the teacher’s capacity to provide it. I find that students are very bright people. If a student doesn’t play something right, then I blame my explanation”.

Well, that is precisely the kind of blunder I have done here! I apologize!

What I meant of course, is that you never know what kind of MOTION or use of basics (up stroke, rebound, etc...) you will need after a particular stroke to play your next one! You are right of course, you HAVE to know what you will play next, if not how the hell are you going to play it?! But Murray was absolutely right, you will only know instinctively HOW to produce that stroke with the least amount of effort if you practice and focus on relaxing and getting maximum efficiency with minimal effort. There is no disproving that point! I know it from my experiences with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and other martial arts I practice. You can only be a proficient fighter if you adapt quickly and effortlessly to what your partner is doing and that takes LOTS of practice just learning to relax and refining your technique. It's no different with drumming. You have to instinctively adapt your playing with relaxed motions and that takes practice and of course, if you practice wrong that's how your playing is going to sound... wrong. So Murrays great achievement with his students was getting them to relax and stretching each "basic" motion to it's full potential, that way they could get it "right" faster than with other teachers. That's why he was so sought out and so successful.

[Toby_Jackson]

Hey. thanks for following up on that Chris - BTW I love that quote from Murray, being a teacher myself.

[ChuckSilverman]

I'm writing an article for Modern Drummer Brasil about my studies with Richard Wilson and Murray Spivack. I'm here to ask if any of you who have studied with these true Masters of the art would like to contribute a quote or anecdote for my story. You can email me at chuck@chucksilverman.com and please cc to cbsilverman@yahoo.com as well.

best,

Chuck

[Levon's Pocket]

Having played the drums for 7 yrs I've finally decided to learn how to, starting with the grip. So here I am with George L Stone and a miserable left hand. Reading about the Spivak technique and trying out the concept as I take it from the info here, it feels very natural and relaxed. Now that's a good thing for me coz I've discovered, thanks to GLS, that I have a very tensed left side. All the way up to the shoulder. I'm relly looking forward to some video material describing this approach to gripping. I'm not to hopeful about finding a teacher in my part of Sweden that knows it. I also noticed that Mr. Spivak isn't even in the Great Teachers section of the mainsite so we're kind of sub-culture-ish here I guess.
Chuck// When clips from the Beginning Tech shows on YouTube I'll be there, and I'll get the dvd too.

Edit: I found the Bellson lesson on youtube when I spelled Spivack instead of Spivak. Spivack teaching Bellson on grip and strokes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGMRKNyuAsI)

[Boomka]

Thank you for linking to that (Copyright be damned, I guess....). I think that video will help to elucidate many of topics touched on in this thread. It helped me gain a better understanding of the "Basics" as they were referred to throughout this thread.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

.........So here I am with George L Stone and a miserable left hand. ...I've discovered, thanks to GLS, that I have a very tensed left side. All the way up to the shoulder. I'm relly looking forward to some video material describing this approach to gripping. ........[/URL]

It's easy to get the idea that you think Stone, and his approach to gripping the stick, caused you to get tense. I don't think that was your point, but if I got that drift, others have as well....

Regarding the master teacher question, the widely renowned masters and teachers of hand technique that tower above everyone else are Jim Chapin, Joe Morello, and their teachers and students. With all the respect that is due to Murray, and I really do believe he was a very good teacher, I suggest you get your first opinion on hand technique from them. In other words, I suggest you learn the free stroke and the Moeller method, as taught by Chapin and Morello. There is an abundance of video material available for this, plus many excellent teachers.

[Boomka]

Caspar, I think that what he was saying was that "thanks to GLS" he now realises how tense his left side is, not that Stone caused his left side tension. I could be wrong, however.

Additionally, I think we have to be very careful about setting up a heirarchy of teachers and methods. There is more than one way to beat a drum, and there are a number of ways of utilising our physiology to navigate the physics we're constrained by. Morello and Chapin didn't develop their awesome techniques in a vacuum.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Caspar, I think that what he was saying was that "thanks to GLS" he now realises how tense his left side is, not that Stone caused his left side tension. I could be wrong, however.

Additionally, I think we have to be very careful about setting up a heirarchy of teachers and methods. There is more than one way to beat a drum, and there are a number of ways of utilising our physiology to navigate the physics we're constrained by. Morello and Chapin didn't develop their awesome techniques in a vacuum.

Boom, I acknowledge he probably didn't mean what I first thought he meant, just wanted to point out my initial sense of what he meant.

And of course, everyone should go with whatever system, teacher, direction, etc he or she wants. However, I have not seen anybody cover hand technique, the down to earth science of it, the dynamic range that compares to the free stroke coupled with the Moeller technique. And there is such an abundance of material in this lineage that if someone is beginning to look seriously at hand technique, it is the natural place to go.

Psychology is extremely interesting, but in my humble opinion, it is not necessary for learning great hand technique. I have studied with Dom Famularo for 5 years, and his approach to teaching the free stroke and Moeller is 100% practical and 0% psychological. I am not saying that I am proof this is the way to go, but I wonder why psychology is so attractive at the base stage of learning how to hold a stick.

And again, I am an advocate for everyone following their heart, psychology or not.

Peace,
Casper

[Boomka]

Who said anything about psychology? Did you perhaps misread "physiology"?

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Who said anything about psychology? Did you perhaps misread "physiology"?

Oh, sorry, you are correct. What led me there was the video with Murray and Louie where Murray said he wants to get to the student's brain.

Anyway, didn't want to derail the discussion. I chimed in because a newcomer to hand technique wanted pointers, and, as always, I offer the free stroke and the Moeller as two no-frills, extremely well documented techniques that cover the whole spectrum. And with that, I will go practice my double strokes.
Casper

[Levon's Pocket]

Thank you both for chipping in. Yes, with Mr. Stone I ment that focused practice on just hitting the pad made me realize things that don't show when just playing around. I don't even know his approach to gripping so he's just been helpful so far.
Right now I'm trying to find out how to get comfy with the combined twist/knock movement that is required to execute the stroke. When I cock the wrists they tend to wobble which feels somehow un-natural. I'm sure this is something that you have to overcome with practice (regardless of method) and that there's no short-cut, but still...
I'll try not to think too much about that and, insted, shut up and go to work.

[icebone]

I studied with Murray for many years, His approach and technique to playing the snare drum is something all drummers should know. His video can help but unfortunately if you cannot study with one of his former students it is a hard technique to develop as it is so subtle as compared to todays mega drummers. Good luck and if you have a question you can contact me. icebone@verizon.net

Gary Ferguson

[DJBonebrake]

Re: Teaching through the student's brain.
Here's a quote from Mr. Spivack from my lessons with him.
" You teach through your own head. See, through your student's head. So, he has to understand thoroughly what he's trying to do. The hands will do what the head tells them to do. If you don't understand it they won't do a damn thing. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, IT'S TOTALLY MY FAULT. I HAVEN'T REACHED YOU. IF YOU UNDERSTAND IT AND YOU DON'T DO IT, IT'S TOTALLY YOUR FAULT. So it takes both of us to do this deal, see."
DJ Bonebrake

[DJBonebrake]

I think Chris Oyens has given some good explanations concerning the Spivack approach. But in describing the DOWN STROKE which requires the stick to stop close to the drum in order to execute the UP STROKE( and other things, for instance a grace note) people have misconstrued that as being an unbreakable rule. If you were playing a series of SINGLE STROKES the stick would just rebound naturally.
There's another misconception and that is that the fingers don't move. They don't leave the stick that's true, but the pressure is constantly changing.To quote Murray Spivack, "Because it's constantly varying, depending on the speed, depending on the dynamic that you use. So you don't grip the stick with the same amount of pressure all the time. It's constantly changing."
And...one more quote from the horse's mouth about holding the stick.
"The stick actually sits into this first joint of this middle finger. Now, these two come together, the thumb and index finger, and they are parallel, they are straight across. The trick is to get the middle finger fairly close to these (thumb and index) so that you create a COMPARATIVELY NARROW FULCRUM. I just want the tip of the fourth (ring) finger on it (the stick). The reason being that if you let it dominate, this middle finger is going to come off. Now, if you squeeze too hard between your thumb and index finger that's going to come off (middle and fourth finger). So this is your main finger (middle finger), your most important finger, that's were it sits. These two (thumb and index) come together with whatever tension is necessary to keep this in it's proper place. And you'll find that there's a little space in here (an opening between the thumb and index) which gives the sticks some freedom in which to move."
Also the pinkie doesn't touch the stick. It's curled under, not sticking up in the air.
Sorry to go on so long but I hope some of you will find his quotes interesting if not illuminating.
Thanks, DJ

[Alex Luce]

DJB: Nice to see you posting here.

Thank you for explaining the downstroke concept, it makes a lot more sense than what was said previously. Although if a rule must be constantly broken, what sense does it make to have it in the first place?

I also don't quite understand why Murray felt the pinkie shouldn't be used. Being the farthest finger from the fulcrum, it can provide the greatest leverage when the fingers are used to move the stick.

Regards,

Alex

[Boomka]

DJB: Nice to see you posting here.

Thank you for explaining the downstroke concept, it makes a lot more sense than what was said previously. Although if a rule must be constantly broken, what sense does it make to have it in the first place?

I also don't quite understand why Murray felt the pinkie shouldn't be used. Being the farthest finger from the fulcrum, it can provide the greatest leverage when the fingers are used to move the stick.

That's the same question I have, though Murray and his students suggest it's because it keeps the stick from moving freely about the fulcrum point. That said, the Spivack approach also incorporates a static fulcrum point, which has its merits; but so does shifting the fulcrum back to the third and fourth fingers to get a "direct drive" from the wrist a la Tony Williams, the Swiss Basel school, Moeller/Chapin, etc. At high velocities and volume levels, getting tension out of the front of the hand (thumb, index and middle fingers) can be a boon to endurance, control and even safety.

As far as I'm concerned, the little bugger is there and attached to the strongest muscle in the hand, why not get it involved in some way?

[ChuckSilverman]

hey friends

there was a person posting on here named Tim Wilson. I need to get in touch with him. Tim? TIM? hahaha..

thanks guys

Chuck

[tcanedy]

I studied with Murry in the early 70s.

His teaching had a significant impact on my playing.
Not only because of his oncept of technique but because he convinced me there were only 7 rudiments that a set player needed.

As a set player it was great to meet a teacher willing to venture away from the drum and bugle arena. This concept really opened up my mind and focused my practise routine.

Todd Canedy