More experience as a drummer, less muffling of the kit..what does that tell us?

[cdrums21]

It seems that the more experienced one becomes as a drummer, the need for muffling and muting the kit becomes less and less. I know for me, any type of muffling on my snare or toms takes away certain sonic characteristics that I find desireable.... the high end bite of the snare, the attack and full resonant tone of the toms. But, when I was a beginner, I muffled the crap out of my kit to get rid of any excess overtones that sounded unnatural and was perfectly happy. Obviously, becoming a more mature player, an experienced tuner and acquiring a "taste" for wide open sounding drums will lead most drummers to not use any muffling devices whatsoevr, but is there more to it than that? Is it better to not muffle your drums since most more experienced players don't? What are your thoughts?

[nitro]

I think more experienced players tend to have better equipment and therefore don't need to battle with crap sounds as much.

I agree, on the tuning elements though - if a good kit is tuned properly, the need for dampening is reduced. Personal choice and genre come into it though.

[Auger]

Well, sometimes I'll muffle a drum -usually in an extreme sort of circumstance, like going for an effect by draping towels over the drums, that sort of thing. Also, if you don't have a good sounding room (or experienced engineer) sometimes it's necessary to muffle drums when recording. it all depends on the situation, and type of music really.

But, yeah, in general I agree with you. I think you're right about 'aquiring the taste' for an open sound. I think the other part of it is that, with experience, you get better at tuning and learn about different head types, so you don't need muffling to get the sound you're after.

[Wile E. Coyote]

My oppinion is that kits are not meant to muffle. You can do whatever you want only with the tuning key. I think that muffling has to be used as a change of sound color.
The more experience you get, the better in tuning you become. And you get also lot better sound because of your stroke.

[crumbdrums]

I even had the same experience wih cymbals...I liked short sustain, pingy rides...now I love my quiet, warm, Dark Energy Mark II ride. But about the drums, I definetly agree. I still like to control my snare a bit but I hate almost any tom-muffling.

[Sparkletone]

For me, I think muffling is based more on personal preference (much like tuning), than experience level. Seems like plenty of pros out there use moon gels and or similar methods to muffle their drums.

That being said, I'm totally in the same boat your are, personally. When I first started out back in the 80s, I had (...prepare to laugh) folded up paper towels taped to each drum head on my kit—yikes. My drum teacher had showed me this, and so I thought that's what everyone did and how drums should sound.

Despite how "great" they looked (that's a joke), I ditched the paper towels decades ago. It was only recently (about 5 years ago) that I took off all the plastic rings off my kit and started appreciating how great everything sounds opened up—especially snare drums.

I've also learned how to tune my drums with much more finesse now than before, which is possibly why I'm happy to let everything ring out: Nothing sounds worse than a badly tuned drum, open or closed. But to me, nothing sounds better than a drum not only tuned up, but opened up.

[Synthetik]

Here is the timeline for popular drum sounds:

Up to the 60's: few plies, mixed woods, a lot of fat, resonant, warm sound

70's/early 80's: Dead, thuddy minimal resonance (except for Bonzo) Hydraulic heads, heads taped to death, single head drums etc...

Mid 80's-present- market splits. trends of more resonant shells, and also shells that have a big attack. Very few thuddy sounding kits anymore. A demand for a "More sophisticated/whole" tone from drums.

Generally, drums that don't resonate well are not as widely accepted anymore. Drummers have become very musically aware of the sound of thier kits (much the domain of Jazz drummers in the past) and maximum resonance with some overtone control is the new standard. Sustain is one of DW's big selling points.

Since I lived through the changes, I can say that my taste definately leans toward the original "full" tone with sustain and minimal overtones.

Illustrating the "now": a very inexpensive Gretsch Catalina club outfitted with coated G1's really had a tone reminiscent of the 60's. It was a far cry from entry kits just a few years ago (and some now) that just thud, or have this attack but no presence.

[mlehnertz]

Now why would we be laughing? EVERYBODY was doing this because this was the sound coming out of the studios.

Let me help you out a little. What you should have been doing was buying 4x4guaze pads and duct tape. What you did was either cut them in half or fold them in half (for maximum thud) and duct tape them to the head. It really sounded cool with my Ludwig silver-dots.

And then we discovered those blue Evans hydraulics.

When I first started out back in the 80s, I had (...prepare to laugh) folded up paper towels taped to each drum head on my kit—yikes. My drum teacher had showed me this, and so I thought that's what everyone did and how drums should sound.

[cdrums21]

My original question poses no bias, however, my personal opinion is that not muffling drums is better. I know I might get some guff for this, but a couple of things happen when you muffle a drum. One thing is you lose a little bit of volume. I know if I play someone else's kit that's muffled up, they sound like crap to me and I really have to dig the sound out of the drums. They just lose the fullness and power that I'm used to and I hate it. Also, as I said in my earlier post, some of the desirable sonic qualities are eliminated, which, to me, translates into not getting as good of a drum sound as the drums are capable of...in any room. Now that I have been playing my snare and toms without muffling for a good 25 years, live and in the studio in many different situations, I could never go back to even the slightest bit of muffling. I don't think its that I've gottten used to that kind of a sound as much as that's how I think the drums should sound and anything less wouldn't be acceptable.

Yes, I know it's personal preference, but I think that a younger drummer would benefit from analyzing why most experienced drummers don't muffle. I don't know anyone who started out with a big, full sounding open kit and then over the years, muffled their kit up into sounding like the boxes they came in. It's the other way around and I think it mainly has to do with more experienced players knowing what a good sound is and how to get it.

[Synthetik]

There is such a thing as a judicious amount of muffling. Something along the lines of EC2 , or even a small bit of tape to kill overring.

In this manner, volume isn't necessarily lost and there is more punch and perception of focus.

A lot of damping (hydraulics, massive amounts of pillows and tape) does kill everything about the drums.

Buddy Rich (talking to MD): "Taking the bottom head off is just stupid. It kills the drums tonality."

Listen to Mike Portnoys drums. Now listen to Joey Jordinsons. There is a big difference there in damping.

[Hex]

I think beginner drummers who don't know how to tune or have crappy kits that don't sound good will be more likely to use some kind of muffling.

But, as others have said, it can also be a product of what drums sounds are popular at the time. Even professional drummers who knew how to tune would muffle their kits back in the 70s and 80s because that was the desired sound.

[jazzsnob]

I definitely subscribe to this. I used to muffle the hell out of my drums and now I use nothing. I think it's just developing your ear and learning how to tune. It's also about tone. As drummers improve their technique they are able to achieve better sound they want more sound and resonance, because it simply is more melodic and musical.

[Auger]

You know, I was just thinking about this again. I think all the previouly said stuff is probably most of the reason for this, but also I suspect it has something to do with playing ability as well. Until you develop a touch on the drums and a certain amount of technique, it can be hard to feel 'in control' when you've got these singing, ringy drums. You tend to want to pull in the reigns and make things tamer/easier to handle. Then, once you get some command of the instrument, you find you can actually use that tone.

[druid]

yep...I am not a fan of muffling either....I used to when I was much younger playing concert toms etc....but I think the more you think about it...a drum should resonate...all other instruments do....you don't tape a piano , guitar, violin...etc...I think it was some weird thing that occured with the advent of close miking in the 70's.....engineers still when I play live miked as me to cut a hole in my bass drum head...nope. I like it to sound like drums. I recently had a sound guy compliment me on my old Remo drums in a live siutation....because he said they sounded like "real drums"....it is all about tuning.

[nhzoso]

Well this may just be a question of personal preference because you said most Pro's don'tuse em, not all. So I think if you like the sound without muffles or think it's somehow amateurish to use them then thats your preference but I don't think it's a standard. I am a beginner and use rings but I challenge anyone here to use a Sonor 3003 set without em..They sound horrible without those little white rings. : )

And yes I have after market heads on them...well the batter sides anyway.

[Synthetik]

Well this may just be a question of personal preference because you said most Pro's don'tuse em, not all. So I think if you like the sound without muffles or think it's somehow amateurish to use them then thats your preference but I don't think it's a standard. I am a beginner and use rings but I challenge anyone here to use a Sonor 3003 set without em..They sound horrible without those little white rings. : )

And yes I have after market heads on them...well the batter sides anyway.

Almost all pros use some form of muffling in the studio and live. They often use internal damping that is not visible on videos. There is no equating amature vs pro in terms of muffling.

"Gee Mr. Gadd, your drums sound so dead. You must be a real rank amature!"

[finnhiggins]

You know, I was just thinking about this again. I think all the previouly said stuff is probably most of the reason for this, but also I suspect it has something to do with playing ability as well. Until you develop a touch on the drums and a certain amount of technique, it can be hard to feel 'in control' when you've got these singing, ringy drums. You tend to want to pull in the reigns and make things tamer/easier to handle. Then, once you get some command of the instrument, you find you can actually use that tone.

This is right on the nose. It takes a certain degree of control to be able to play single-ply heads tuned wide-open without sounding bad. Thicker heads disguise whether you can play or not, to a degree. That's not to say that anybody using thicker heads can't play, but there's more ability to vary the tone the drum produces with thinner heads and less muffling. So if more experienced drummers use thinner heads it's probably because they can get a wider range of tones from drums with that set-up.

[Drummer Karl]

good thread, that`s like "How can can I get rid of that dirt on my T-shirt? Throw it away or make the best out of it and experiment?"
I really never muffled drums, NEVER and I hate it. I hate the sound, this typical "bob"- sound, just awful. I think muffling drums extremly is just like making "make-up" on my face, it just hide the actual problems.
Better way would be to experiment with tuning till you find a good tuning and try out different heads. I think it`s good to explore how the drums react on different tunings, it will make you of course much more experienced. I had this problem a few days ago: My 12" tom sounded hoorible because of an awful lot of overtones...a good friend and guitarist said that I could "muffle away" this problem...just don`t like to do it, I kept up experimenting and reading some tuning guides et voilà: I got a good open jazzy sound.
So, just ask yourself: What gives me more experience? To muffle or to experiment till you find and to read? I guess it`s the second possibility...

Karl

[cdrums21]

Almost all pros use some form of muffling in the studio and live. They often use internal damping that is not visible on videos. There is no equating amature vs pro in terms of muffling.

"Gee Mr. Gadd, your drums sound so dead. You must be a real rank amature!"

I would say that out of 10 professional drummers that I either know personally or have studied about and talked to via email, and other famous guys like Neil Peart, John Bonham, Eddie Bayers, Kenny Aronoff to name a few, 99% of them do NOT muffle their drums. If anything, a small bit of whatever on the snare drum just to take the "ping" out may be used and that's about it. I'm sure there are exceptions, but if you don't believe me, take a look around this site at video clips or shots of pro drummers playing live and try to catch views where you can see the kit from the driver's seat. More often than not there is nothing on the snare and toms, and I highly doubt that there are internal muffling devices. That whole concept impedes the natural vibration of the head to create sound waves, is flawed and any serious drummer, drum tech or sound engineer should never do that (I'm talking snare and toms). I'm not saying it's amateurish or wrong to muffle, I'm just saying that there must be something to not muffling your drums for it to be so common among professionals. In general, I think drums sound best unmuffled and singing, but that's just me.

[Synthetik]

I would say that out of 10 professional drummers that I either know personally or have studied about and talked to via email, and other famous guys like Neil Peart, John Bonham, Eddie Bayers, Kenny Aronoff to name a few, 99% of them do NOT muffle their drums. If anything, a small bit of whatever on the snare drum just to take the "ping" out may be used and that's about it. I'm sure there are exceptions, but if you don't believe me, take a look around this site at video clips or shots of pro drummers playing live and try to catch views where you can see the kit from the driver's seat. More often than not there is nothing on the snare and toms, and I highly doubt that there are internal muffling devices. That whole concept impedes the natural vibration of the head to create sound waves, is flawed and any serious drummer, drum tech or sound engineer should never do that (I'm talking snare and toms). I'm not saying it's amateurish or wrong to muffle, I'm just saying that there must be something to not muffling your drums for it to be so common among professionals. In general, I think drums sound best unmuffled and singing, but that's just me.

I don't beleiev anyone records in a studio without some kind of muffling. Damping the head doesn't necessarily dampen the shell. Sound engineers often lament an overly "live" sounding kit.

" I highly doubt that there are internal muffling devices. "

Again, without evidence you are speculating. And I didn't realize that you personally knew Neil Peart, John Bonham, Eddie Bayers, Kenny Aronoff and were present at all of thier recording sessions.

99%? where did you get that statistic?

[cdrums21]

I don't beleiev anyone records in a studio without some kind of muffling. Damping the head doesn't necessarily dampen the shell. Sound engineers often lament an overly "live" sounding kit.

" I highly doubt that there are internal muffling devices. "

Again, without evidence you are speculating. And I didn't realize that you personally knew Neil Peart, John Bonham, Eddie Bayers, Kenny Aronoff and were present at all of thier recording sessions.

99%? where did you get that statistic?

You obviously misread my post. I'll guarantee you that many recordings are made with no muffling on the kit whatsoever, aside from the kick drum. I am a session drummer and I record just about all the time without any muffling. As far as them not having internal muffling devices, it's not speculation, it's fact. The drummers that I personally know, Eddie Bayers, Owen Hale and some other top Nashville session drummers use no muffling whatsoever on many of their recordings and have no internal muffling devices whatsoever. In corresponding with Anton Fig, Frankie Banali and Tommy Aldrich via email several times, I can tell you that they too related that their recordings and live work are mostly done wide open with no muffling at all. In the case of Frankie Banali, sometimes not even the kick drum.

As far as you stating that I personally knew Neil Peart, John Bonham, etc., come on dude...if you go back and read the post, you will see that I said 10 drummers that I personally know, AND OTHERS LIKE, meaning that I obviously don't know them personally but was merely referencing them as other drummers who have either stated they don't use muffling or have been filmed playing wide open kits. And last but not least, 99% is just a rhetorical number, not an exact one. get the picture?

[Synthetik]

As far as you stating that I personally knew Neil Peart, John Bonham, etc., come on dude...if you go back and read the post, you will see that I said 10 drummers that I personally know, AND OTHERS LIKE, meaning that I obviously don't know them personally but was merely referencing them as other drummers who have either stated they don't use muffling or have been filmed playing wide open kits. And last but not least, 99% is just a rhetorical number, not an exact one. get the picture?

No see, you are trying to support your post with speculation and assumptions. If the "no muffling" were the case, they why are people reluctant to go to the studio with just any kit, and especially not acrylic? Because some kits are too "live" sounding and they like a controlled sound. This is why kits like the yamaha RC exist. That's why pinstripes and ec2's exist. To achieve "that studio sound" which is not as resonant as possible. Even Bonzo's kit had a felt strip on the kick.

I am sure that some recordings are made with single ply heads tuned just right and not a spot of muffling anywhere...but I really doubt that's the rule and not the exception.

Here is a novel idea: I'd like to ask a pro like Bermuda to chime in here and I'll go with whatever he has to say. That should end the speculation one way or the other. If I am wrong, I am wrong.

[bermuda]

Oh... hi....*chime* :)

I think a lot of good points have been covered, and whether a particular drum sounds better wide open, or with various degrees and types of damping, is largely dependent on the production value trying to be achieved. A wide open tom may sound great, but may not work for a particular song or mood. Same for a muffled tom. Same for snares... and bass drums.

One extremely important thing to remember is that we tune drums with our ear 18-24" from the head, and room abience also comes into play with the overall sound. But with drums being mic'd a few inches from the head, or inside the drum, or with overheads a few feet above our ears, it's not really possible to know how the drums will track. An open tom may sound good to the ear, but really howl into the mic. To attempt to argue with the engineer and producer about how well you've tuned the drums, can only result in that being the last session you do with them.

As has been pointed out, there are musical styles and eras that have a propensity towards muffling, just as certain snare sounds and digital effects are the hallmarks of certain eras and styles.

Is muffling right or wrong? It depends. A good musician knows how & when to make his drums sound a certain way, and also knows that the engineer or sound guy out front has the final say in how the drums need to be tweaked for the best sound. Leaving toms and snares wide open and relying on the sound guy to 'gate' them to control overtones just means the drums won't sound as intended.

As for 99% of sessions being done with unmuffled toms & snares, that hasn't been my experience at any time during my 30+ years of recording. I can't recall ever leaving a tom completely wide open. But about half the time, I've got some sort of pad or loop of tape on the snare. A lot of the snare sound (in the mix) depends on the drum ringing out a little, but again, it really depends on the song/style/mood at hand. It's crucial for a working drummer to be versatile and flexible.

Don't know if that answered the question, but those are my thoughts.

Bermuda

[dunkerton12]

I can't speak about many pro drummers, but I do know that Portnoy muffles his snare and his toms.

On his snare he has a huge piece of black tape, and the batter heads of his toms are pinstripes, which have built in muffling rings. To top it off, his snare head is also either a Controlled Sound head or an Emperor X, both of which are designed to muffle. So his snare has a muffling head and a piece of tape on top of that!

I think it has to boil down to personal taste. Sure, one should get better at tuning with time, and one should have a better touch on the drums as he/she gets better, but this doesn't necessarily translate to, "I think I'll stop using muffling now." I think it's just what the drummer likes. I've been playing for some time now and I still muffle my snare with 1/2 piece of moongel. I just like the way it sounds and it has nothing to do with my tuning abilities as I never muffle my toms, they sound great with a coated ambassador, which, BTW, has a coating and therefore, will muffle some. The more stuff you do to a drum head the more you lose the high and mid ends. This is why muffled heads or very thick heads seem to sound deeper when in actuality the lower tones are just more pronounced because the mid/high have been dampened. But I digress.

In short, it's about what sound the drummer wants-period.

[Auger]

wow, people really are passionate about this, huh?

Anyway, I think that when talking about recording, we also should consier the recent rise of home recording. -not making demos with a 4-track, but honest-to-album home recording.
Sometimes in this situation, you might have nice drums, mics and recording equipment -maybe even a pretty knowledgable recording engineer if you're lucky, but you've only got the room that you've got and some rooms just don't record drums all that well, so it becomes a bit of a struggle. I've had a few in-home recording expreinces like this and, despite the fact that I prefer the way my drums sound open in most cases when I'm by myself, they just didn't track well that way. Someone's living room might really accentuate unfavorable frequencies (not always ring, or high frequencies either) even if the drums sound great just standing in the room, or from behind the drumset with no muffling. If you've only got a weekend and no other rooms to work with, it's like Billy Ward says: you've got to be a marine: improvise, adapt, and overcome. Excepting the live tracks, The songs linked to in my signature file were all done in a home studio(s). Some were in a basement, some were in a living room with all the furniture pushed to the side, that sort of stuff. Sometimes I had to muffle, sometimes I didn't. Sometimes I had to take the front head off the bass drum. It's all about the circumstances. If putfile is in a cooperative mood, you can hear what kind of results I got. They're not all great, but sometimes you've just got to work with the best that you can get in that circumstance.

...now my playing, on the other hand ...well ...home studio's no excuse for that, hahaha...

Also, thanks for responding to synthetik like that, bermuda! That's very cool that you took the time to contribute and share all you experience on this one!

[Synthetik]

I want to give a big thanks to Bermuda for responding!!! It put everything into the correct perspective. Your participation here means more than I am capable of expressing at the moment. You are THE MAN!

[bermuda]

In short, it's about what sound the drummer wants-period.

Most often, it's about the sound that the artist or producer wants.

Only a handfull of drummers are known for their sound, and that's usually in a limited context (Bonham with Led Zep, or Bev Bevan with classic E.L.O. for example.) But the majority of pros aren't known for a specific drum sound. The artist or producer dictates how their drums will sound on a track.

Bermuda

[bermuda]

I want to give a big thanks to Bermuda for responding!!! It put everything into the correct perspective. Your participation here means more than I am capable of expressing at the moment. You are THE MAN!

Thanks, and you're welcome! I don't always have the definitive, final answer on everything, but I've been in the business a while and am happy to offer my thoughts if I think it adds to the thread.

Bermuda

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

...more post etc etc.

I am sure that some recordings are made with single ply heads tuned just right and not a spot of muffling anywhere...but I really doubt that's the rule and not the exception.

Here is a novel idea: I'd like to ask a pro like Bermuda to chime in here and I'll go with whatever he has to say. That should end the speculation one way or the other. If I am wrong, I am wrong.

I don't know. I'm more of the opinion that you'll need more muffling if you have thin shells.

[cdrums21]

Bermuda, you have made some very good points and your post was well written and respected. If you read my posts, I'm not disputing anything you say. I didn't say every recording is done with wide open toms and snares, I'm saying that alot of them are that I know of and alot of pro drummers play their kits live wide open. If you read my post carefully, that's what the 99% comment pertains to, live work, not studio, and 99% just meant alot..I didn't mean for it to be taken literally. When reading articles about certain drummers or conversing via email with them, they have stated that certain recordings were done "wide open" to get a certain sound, but certainly not all recordings. Take Frankie Banali of Quiet Riot. He said the song "Cum on feel the noise" was recorded with a vintage 3 ply Ludwig kit "Bonham sizes", tuned and recorded completely wide open. You hear how the drums sound on that song. Processing and miking techniques, whatever was done makes the drums sound great for that song, but they might not sound good in another situation.

Synthetik, I don't really understand your comments about acrylics and yamaha RC's and all that stuff. I know what you're getting at about the studio sound, but the point is being lost. It's simply this.....there have been recordings made without the use of muffling. That's a fact. It may not be the norm, but a fact none the less. Many, many drummers play their kits wide open in live situations. Many are adamant about not using any muffling in live situations. I've seen it first hand working as a tech. That's it.

As Bermuda said, he usually uses some form of muffling on his kit for recording and doesn't know of many cases where some form of muffling hasn't been used. I'm sure that is the case. I agree that whatever the song or music calls for is what should be done...whatever works. That's one of the keys to being a working session drummer. I'm just saying that sound is subjective, there is no right or wrong, and that wide open, unmuffled drums are recorded and played live with great success.....Seacrest..out!

[finnhiggins]

This is a remarkably huge debate over quite a simple issue. Different music calls for different instrumental sounds - there's little disputing that. It's not really a question of "better" vs "worse", more one of "appropriate" vs "innappropriate". I wouldn't like to try recording a 70s-style disco track with Bill Bruford's snare drum sound.

Not only that, "muffling" is a bit of a wierd concept. It's not about "muffling" as something you add, it's all about the weight of the head. An unmuffled coated Emperor or Pinstripe is going to sound a lot more dead than most muffled Ambassadors. So do we make the unmuffled clear Ambassador the definition of "wide open"? What about the Diplomat? You can always make a thinner head. It's not always going to sound better - the thinner the head the easier it becomes to hear inconsistencies in tuning and in playing technique. So for any player there's a point where thinner heads just make you sound worse.

Now, you could spend years trying to get really good at controlling that sound. Some players do - typically jazz drummers, who tend towards using thinner heads and having better understanding of how to play them to get a lot of different tones. Or you could just go "No, I like the range of sounds I have available with muffling" and stick with that. I'd tend to consider it the mark of a good drummer to make some kind of effort to learn to play well on thin heads, because you may have to play music where it is appropriate - and if you can do that then playing on thicker heads is a snap. But that doesn't mean that "wide open" is somehow better than the whole Steve Gadd muffled thing. It's just a harder sound to control.

As for studios, generally I'd tend to agree with Bermuda. I use more muffling when I record, for the simple reason that it's very easy to add sustain to drums in a studio environment using compression (to boost the existing resonance) and reverb. It's much harder to remove sustain. So in the interest of having a bit more control I'd tend to favour muffling a bit beyond the sound I'm after, because you can usually dial it in and get it back. Not that relying on processing is the ideal, but it's a rare studio environment that IS the ideal - usually things are rushed and stressful, and you quite simply don't have TIME to spend ages trying different microphones in different positions to get a clean and clear representation of what's going on in the room. So you get the best you can, and then fake the rest.

[Chip]

I use muffling on my floor tom. I swear the head (pinstripe) is somehow defective. I have tuned other pinstripes (usually a warm, fat, slappy sound) before, but mine is very, very ringy, and its not a good ringy, either. It goes straight from the detuned buzzy slap to this ringy crap in an eighth of a turn[of the key]. Its a bad ring in that there is hardly any definition. I will see next time I get new heads. I'm most likely going to go for Aquarian coated 1-ply. I'm not very happy at all with Remo... Except for the PS3 bass batter, its good.

Everything else is practically free from muffling. Currently I'm employing a 4-piece, and the high tom has a little bit on the reso head, I will most likely take that off. I'm definantly starting to enjoy the ring of the drums (when I heard Joe Morello, it all changed), especially the snare with the wires disabled, I'm a sucker for that ring. As opposed to when I started, I had tape all around the heads. Ughhh...

I think more experienced players tend to have better equipment and therefore don't need to battle with crap sounds as much.
There is truth in that. You can get a bad kit to sound good, but its harder.

[cdrums21]

As for studios, generally I'd tend to agree with Bermuda. I use more muffling when I record, for the simple reason that it's very easy to add sustain to drums in a studio environment using compression (to boost the existing resonance) and reverb. It's much harder to remove sustain. So in the interest of having a bit more control I'd tend to favour muffling a bit beyond the sound I'm after, because you can usually dial it in and get it back. Not that relying on processing is the ideal, but it's a rare studio environment that IS the ideal - usually things are rushed and stressful, and you quite simply don't have TIME to spend ages trying different microphones in different positions to get a clean and clear representation of what's going on in the room. So you get the best you can, and then fake the rest.

I guess I'm in a unique recording situation in that the studio I do work in is very friendly to live sounding kits. For me, it's not a matter of sustain per se, but more one of tone quality. I know that the resonance has alot to do with tone quality, but if I muffle say the toms, I lose certain aspects of the sound that can't be added back electronically. I recorded a soundtrack for a company called MusicQ, which specializes in selling tracks of different styles of music to be used as background for film production, TV, etc. I was doing a country CD and we started out muffling the toms a tad. We ended up taking off all muffling (just some tape) and the toms sounded awesome with a much improved tone quality that we just couldn't get with electronic enhancement on the muffled version. I recorded all of that CD that way with the exception of some muffling on the snare for a slow ballad type tune. It worked in that situation, but as you said, I may not have liked that sound applied to a different style of music.

[bermuda]

I didn't say every recording is done with wide open toms and snares, I'm saying that alot of them are that I know of and alot of pro drummers play their kits live wide open. If you read my post carefully, that's what the 99% comment pertains to, live work, not studio, and 99% just meant alot..I didn't mean for it to be taken literally.

True, I only skimmed over the thread, saw 99% mentioned a few times, and then addressed the original statement: "It seems that the more experienced one becomes as a drummer, the need for muffling and muting the kit becomes less and less."

With respect strictly to that, I'd say instead that the more experienced one becomes, the more they understand when and how to muffle, rather than abandoning it over time. I've done many things to muffle my drums, the most counter-productive (and often unspeakable) methods of which occurred while I was younger and inexperienced.

One thing I will add is that in an acoustic situation - no mics - I am more likely to leave toms wide open, use only a little padding on the snare (maybe just a light touch of the internal muffler if present) and may use little or no extra padding in my kick (although the Evans EMAD tames a wide open head just right.) But as I mentioned in an earlier post, the sound the drummer (and audience) hears from a distance is devoid of the unwanted overtones that a mic hears and which muffling corrects. That is, the problem that muffling is normally intended to correct, isn't an issue in every situation.

But, apart from just controlling overtones, muffling the edge of a head also enhances the fundamental note of the drum's tuning. However, only a mic interprets the effect well. In an acoustic situation, and even though the drum may sound rich and punchy when sitting right above it, the effect diminishes over distance and the audience, even just 20 feet away, will hear it as overly-dead.

So yeah, there's a simple basic answer to the question of muffling: do what's right for the situation. But there are so many facets and variables to the concept of what's 'right' in a given situation.

Bermuda

[Stu_Strib]

Jeezus stop the love fest already Synthetik ;-)

Bermuda is a pro, good for him. Unless I read wrong, so is Cdrums (skimming, so maybe I messed it up).

In any case, Cdrums points are very persuasive.

On a side note, I could care less if Portnoy tapes, muffles moon gels and pinstripes. His music requires that. He is a staccatto style drummer with lots of single short notes. It isn't very musical (to me) but it does sound cool, and most importantly, fits the music.

The way I look at this issue is that resonant drums and dark cymbals are an acquired taste that come with experience and maturity. Just like when I was young I didn't like coffee, beer or wine, but now those are three of the finest pleasures.

[finnhiggins]

Your points were TOTALLY lost (99% eh?) when Bermuda chimed in. You should admit you were gravely wrong in most ways and move on.

Oh, quit being so tiresome. This is a discussion, not some kind of measuring chart for your manhood. Put it away...

The point itself is well-made, and Bermuda has covered it nicely. There are many aspects of drum sound control that affect different points in the room. The first time I heard a Yamaha MCA (just after they came out) I heard it with factory heads from maybe 10-15m away, played by Ralph Salmins. It sounded *phenomenal*. Then I played it, later in the day. From behind the kit it just sounded absolutely nasty. A few days later (this was a school kit) I got to go through the same process (watch from in front, then play) after the heads had been switched out to Evans G2s. The sound had reversed - the sound that I was hearing from the back of the room with the stock single-ply heads was now happening behind the kit, but from out front the drums had no tone and sounded bangy and frankly rather naff.

So if you're recording in a high-quality room and have plenty of time to play with room mic positioning and phase then you're likely to be able to do a lot more with a wide-open sound, taking much of your recorded sound from further back in the room. But if you're recording in a cheap project studio and have to live with the close-mic sound then you may well be much better off muffing a bit to boost the tone of the drum in relation to the overtones.

I think the initial statement could be turned around to refine its accuracy a bit, though:

"The less muffling you see on a kit the more likely it is to be being played by an experienced drummer"

That doesn't mean that a muffled kit disqualifies anybody from the "Experienced drummer" class, it just means that the majority of people you see playing wide-open kits are people who have had some time to learn to play and tune them so they don't sound bad.

[Wile E. Coyote]

"The less muffling you see on a kit the more likely it is to be being played by an experienced drummer"

That was politically correct finn. I buy it!

[Stu_Strib]

"The less muffling you see on a kit the more likely it is to be being played by an experienced drummer"


Well one thing is for sure, the opposite is pretty true. "The more muffling you see on a kit the more likely it is to be being played by an inexperienced drummer". Which kind of takes us back to post #1.

You rarely see anyone that is considered a great, tasteful drummer with lots of experience having lots of duct tape and o-rings and muffling, but you can see an inexperienced basher playing with little or no muffling.

[nhzoso]

Hmmm, I think the best statement on this thread was it really depends on the kit being played and the type of music and the acoustics of the room.

[cdrums21]

[QUOTE=cdrums21]
Synthetik, I don't really understand your comments about acrylics and yamaha RC's and all that stuff. I know what you're getting at about the studio sound, but the point is being lost. It's simply this.....there have been recordings made without the use of muffling. That's a fact. It may not be the norm, but a fact none the less. Many, many drummers play their kits wide open in live situations. Many are adamant about not using any muffling in live situations. I've seen it first hand working as a tech. That's it.

QUOTE]

Your points were TOTALLY lost (99% eh?) when Bermuda chimed in. You should admit you were gravely wrong in most ways and move on. "There have been recordings made without muffling" is a LONG, LONG way from 99%. The reason I asked Bermuda here is so that a professional with a vast amount of real experiance could shed light , not heat on this topic. I trust his experianced, factual expert input, not your (backpeddling) speculation.

In case you missed (zing) the reference: a kit like a Yamaha RC, designed for the studio (eq) sound, would not likely need as much muffling as a brittle, live sounding acrylic kit. And a DW collectors kit would likely need a lot more taming than a Gretsch kit. And again, the sound they are after (the engineers want) is the goal, not the type or amount of drum or muffling.

Dude, can you freakin' read? The 99% part is pertainig to live work, not studio. And of the 10 pros that I personally know or have talked with, 9 of them play LIVE without muffling toms or snare, so I guess that's 90% if you want to get freakin' technical. I understand completely what you are sarcastically zinging me about with the yamaha rc's and the brittleness of the acrylic kit and all that stuff. No "zing" needed. Maybe the RC would need as much muffling as an acrylic kit in a particular situation and maybe not. It's whatever the situation calls for. That's not the point. The simple point that you don't seem to be getting, and what my original post you began to bash is referring to, is that there are alot of recordings done with no muffling. You disputed that and you are wrong. There are many drummers who play live with no muffling and no internal muffling devices. You disputed that as well and you are wrong.

For whatever reason, you have become agressive and disrespectful towards me in your posts and I don't appreciate it. If I was wrong about what I wrote, I would gladly admit it and apologize for my mistake and misleading comments. However, that is not the case. You have made the comments, and I quote, "Almost all pros use some form of muffling in the studio and live. They often use internal damping that is not visible on videos." That is speculation that is backed up by nothing on your part. My comments were based on fact, straight from the mouths of some very famous professionals. I'm not commenting anymore on this subject. I think that those who are reading this banter between you and I can figure out what is fact and what is speculation.

And to Stu Strib and Finnhiggins, thank you for your support, it means alot :o) I'm sorry to have participated in such a mean spirited post exchange...shame on me.

[mattsmith]

originally posted by cdrums21
And to Stu Strib and Finnhiggins, thank you for your support, it means alot :o) I'm sorry to have participated in such a mean spirited post exchange...shame on me
The weak part of the exchange wasn't your doing. IMO, you were making a very innocent observation regarding young drummers that I have noticed before myself. I also completely understood what you were saying about your studio observations, and although I didn't agree with some of it, your points were deserving of consideration and respect. You didn't come off with any tone of hollow sanctimony or false knowledge that warranted a similarly toned response.

I think the amped up dialogue of one of the contributors was stemmed more in issues of posturing and consensus building, while having very little to do with the subject at hand.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

How ironic, I make a witty remark concerning his identity and he suddenly becomes 'too busy to participate'.

[LDGuy]

*sigh*

Toms sometimes need to be muffled, and sometimes dont. Dont argue about the sound of drums, they all sound different.

And guys, remember, if it sounds good, it probably is.

[sloppyn9ne]

I think more experienced players tend to have better equipment and therefore don't need to battle with crap sounds as much.

I agree, on the tuning elements though - if a good kit is tuned properly, the need for dampening is reduced. Personal choice and genre come into it though.

im pretty experinced and i still have the same s*** from when i was 13.

[Fur drummer]

It tells us they become good at tunning. They also become more knowledgeable about equipment. They also my use heads with some muffling built in.

[ANIMALBEATS]

That with time we open up like flowers in summer.

And the sweet smell of rythm, where the listners may follow there nose.

[mlehnertz]

That's very interesting...

How ironic, I make a witty remark concerning his identity and he suddenly becomes 'too busy to participate'.

[Drad-dog]

I'm so glad I play with people who don't hassle me about my sound. If some engineer wanted to shove a pillow in my bass drum I'd tell him to shove it somewhere else. I really respect you studio guys who can hang in there with all these people trying to make you sound like everyone else on the radio. Sound is a huge part of my musical personality. I never use muffling 'cause that's the sound I like.

What kills me is when dudes drop 5 or 6 grand on sweet ass DW stuff that sings like a bird and then they wrap the whole damb thing in duct tape.

I can understand producers and pop artists wanting a certain drum sound, and muffling and eq-ing a kit to death to achieve exactly what they want, but I'm happy to announce that thoes types will never want me as their drummer. Because I'm a jazz snob, I tend to think that those dudes just don't like the way drums actually sound. Plug those screw balls into a drum machine, and they'd be perfectly happy. I think practically speaking, sure: it all depends on the room, the tune, the blah blah blah... But for me, it only depends on one thing: what I want to hear.

On the other hand, if my paycheck depended on it, I'm pretty sure I'd change my tune!

[bermuda]

But for me, it only depends on one thing: what I want to hear.

On the other hand, if my paycheck depended on it, I'm pretty sure I'd change my tune!

Yep.

And remember, some of the most successful players became successful because they're flexible.

But on the other side of the coin, I'll hand it to Buddy Rich for doing one thing, doing it well, doing it his way, and having young and old drummers still rave about him. However, the drummers who can pull that off are few and far between.

Bermuda

[masonni]

I have done the same thing over the years. When I first started playing I had a tone of duct tape on the under side of my snare heads, and all kinds of blankets inside the bass drum.
Over time I got less and less muffling. I used those RemO's for a long time on the snare too, but again, I got rid of it after a while.
Now I use no muffling and all, except a small DW pillow in my kick.

[tonedef]

It seems that the more experienced one becomes as a drummer, the need for muffling and muting the kit becomes less and less. I know for me, any type of muffling on my snare or toms takes away certain sonic characteristics that I find desireable.... the high end bite of the snare, the attack and full resonant tone of the toms. But, when I was a beginner, I muffled the crap out of my kit to get rid of any excess overtones that sounded unnatural and was perfectly happy. Obviously, becoming a more mature player, an experienced tuner and acquiring a "taste" for wide open sounding drums will lead most drummers to not use any muffling devices whatsoevr, but is there more to it than that? Is it better to not muffle your drums since most more experienced players don't? What are your thoughts?I used to do the same thing and i couldnt imagine doing that now . Its the worst thing you could do to drums is muffle them . the whole reason is because of being a more experienced tuner . most drummers dont even know how to tune and when i was coming up as a rookie drummer that was the first thing i learned was how to tune . I couldnt stand the sound of untuned drums . Another reason is that its kind of embarresing to muffle 'cause that just shows you dont know anything about tuning .

[druid]

Yep.

And remember, some of the most successful players became successful because they're flexible.

But on the other side of the coin, I'll hand it to Buddy Rich for doing one thing, doing it well, doing it his way, and having young and old drummers still rave about him. However, the drummers who can pull that off are few and far between.

Bermuda
I happen to like very open drum sounds as well. Granted if I were being paid well to get a certain sound I can totally understand changing to fit the music. However I do understand both sides of the issue ...just my personal taste leans toward a live sound with tone....it seems like more an more people agree with this these days from lot's of recordings I have heard. A return to a 'real sound' is happening.

One thing I have noticed when doing some recording is I have found it is easier to take out overtone and ring at the board afterward...than it is to add sound back in if it is not there in the first place? Not sure if this makes sense but the last recording I did we were able to start off with a pretty live open sound as the basis of the drum track...and work from there. We also used more distant miking and not close miking which I am sure contributed to this.

[onemat]

In the early sixties most kits were played with little or no muffling with single ply heads. Around '64 the Beatles cut the Larry Williams tune "Slow Down" and it was the first time I noticed a clear nice sounding tom sound. At this point Ringo was using a 12 and a 14 x14 with a 20" kick. On "Slowdown" in particular Ringo does a bunch of fast triplets around the kit and those Luddies just sang to me. I had to have some and to this day whenver I'm in a band that does rock and roll we play Slowdown.
Fast Forward to about '68 or '69 and Listen to Ringo playing with cigarette packs taped to his drums, and later with bottom heads taken off, all to create that "Dead Sound" which incidently was highly copied. I can't imagine listening to Abbey Road without those muffled sounding drums. Sorry I go to Ringo for these examples but in those days EVERYBODY followed what the Beatles were doing. Later on I listened to Mitch Mitchell and noticed he maintained the opened unmuffled sound pretty much on all the Jimi Hendrix records, such as the album Axis Bold As Love. The tune "Wait Until Tomorrow" enjoyed this sound and also close miking, something which was new and rare in 1967.

My point is, muffling is not always a bad thing. I love the way younger players frown on it all the time. Look at the title of this thread. I got the impression the writer thinks drummers with more experience would never muffle a drum. I disagree. I will continue to change the sound of my drums to fit the music and artist I'm working for. Muffling to me is just another technique you can use. I often like to change the sound of what I'm doing to fit the song and sometimes the style of music. Another Muffled Drummer that I think is at times just brilliant when it comes to grooves is Levon Helm. Check out The Band doing Mystery Train to know what I mean.

Matt

[bermuda]

In the early sixties most kits were played with little or no muffling with single ply heads. Around '64 the Beatles cut the Larry Williams tune "Slow Down" and it was the first time I noticed a clear nice sounding tom sound.

And they would have sounded completely different if close miked.

There are a lot of scenarios regarding when and to what degree muffling is appropriate, and the only possible rule is that the drum sound fit the music, regardless of personal preferences. With so many wonderful sounds out there, it's hard to imagine that anyone really thinks drums should sound 'one way'. Might as well ask who the best drummer is, or what the best fill is, or what the best snare sound is... and be surprised when there's not a unanimous response.

Bermuda

[bermuda]

One thing I have noticed when doing some recording is I have found it is easier to take out overtone and ring at the board afterward...than it is to add sound back in if it is not there in the first place?

Ideally, the drums should sound right (for the job at hand) in the first place. The less fiddling around at the board, the better.

Yes, overtones can be dealt with somewhat at the board, but it's not preferable to having the drum make the correct resonance in the first place. And if a ringy tom sound is right, then the drum should indeed be allowed to ring out. No amount of digital wizardry will make a thuddy tom sound naturally live again.

When I go into the studio, and I know I'm going to cut 6 different sounding tracks, I bring as many snares, cymbals, different heads, and appropriately sized kicks and toms to make all of the sounds the songs require. The last thing I would do in the studio is bring one kit and expect the engineer to modify the sounds as needed. Come to think of it, that probably would be the last thing I ever do in a studio.

Bermuda

[Synthetik]

Ok, just a quick note for a few of you. MFB and so on:

There is no conspiracy. I have nothing to hide. I am very busy and am in the midst of dealing with a family situation. My absence is due to that and work. I shut off my notices, because I won't have time to hang around and defend myself or care to for that matter.

I have respect for most of you, but some of you occasionally do get on the high horse.
Enough with the drama and sniping at someone who can't be here to defend himself.

I hope to be able to read the forum in the near future, and gain insight from a lot of you. But right now, busy is busy. I hope that others don't have to juggle family issues and work like this, it's not fun.

So peace be with you, and I hope to be able to chat with some of you sooner than later.

[Elvis]

It seems that the more experienced one becomes as a drummer, the need for muffling and muting the kit becomes less and less. I know for me, any type of muffling on my snare or toms takes away certain sonic characteristics that I find desireable.... the high end bite of the snare, the attack and full resonant tone of the toms. But, when I was a beginner, I muffled the crap out of my kit to get rid of any excess overtones that sounded unnatural and was perfectly happy. Obviously, becoming a more mature player, an experienced tuner and acquiring a "taste" for wide open sounding drums will lead most drummers to not use any muffling devices whatsoevr, but is there more to it than that? Is it better to not muffle your drums since most more experienced players don't? What are your thoughts?

I think the aging process has something to do with it, as well.
I'm in the same boat as you are and have taken the same path.
With exception to any muffling which may already be built into the drumhead, I think it's just less work to not muffle a drum.
Think about it...Remove the old head, slap on the new head, tune, fine tune. At this point you'd be done if you left the drum wide open, but muffling it now requires extra steps and time.
I think as people age, we grow weary of the "unneccessary tedious chores" that we didn't seem to mind going through in our younger years.
On top of all this, I think we realize (later on) that a drum is actually meant to vibrate ( =0 ) and if we really wanted such a muffled sound, why not save a few hundred or thousand dollars and play on the cardboard boxes the drums came in.

In other words, cut out the crap and let's get on with it.

...just my opinion.



Elvis

[bermuda]

On top of all this, I think we realize (later on) that a drum is actually meant to vibrate ( =0 ) and if we really wanted such a muffled sound, why not save a few hundred or thousand dollars and play on the cardboard boxes the drums came in.

Muffling is not an all-or-nothing proposition, and shouldn't (necessarily) result in drums sounding like cardboard boxes. Frankly, if I wanted that sound, I would absolutely sample cardboard box hits and trigger or sequence them!

Muffling is an art - sometimes good art is minimalistic, sometimes it's not.

Bermuda

[jangus]

I also think no muffling seems more sophisticated.

[Elvis]

Muffling is not an all-or-nothing proposition, and shouldn't (necessarily) result in drums sounding like cardboard boxes. Frankly, if I wanted that sound, I would absolutely sample cardboard box hits and trigger or sequence them!

Muffling is an art - sometimes good art is minimalistic, sometimes it's not.

Bermuda

Well, cardboard boxes do have a certain "resonance" to them....but I digress ( ;) )...

I suppose my statement was a bit overboard, as I do agree with you, but my point was that the muffling process is an extra step and I think, more often than not, the average drummer eventually finds that running their drums wide open will get the job done.


Elvis

[bermuda]

I suppose my statement was a bit overboard, as I do agree with you, but my point was that the muffling process is an extra step and I think, more often than not, the average drummer eventually finds that running their drums wide open will get the job done.

In terms of the extra step, believe me, I'm all for streamlining the process of using drums. But, sometimes extra steps are required. I'd love to do my gigs with kick, snare and hat, but I usually need a tom or two. Or three. And a perfect crash/ride would be nice & easy, but it usually serves the music better to have a dedicated ride, and at least one dedicated crash. I don't think any serious working drummer can afford to balk at having to set-up an extra stand or attach an extra tom.

As such, I don't view muffling as an extra effort, any more than tuning or changing heads should be considered an effort. It's all part of the 'cost' of doing business as a drummer.

If we wanted it easy, we'd be singers instead.

Bermuda

[Elvis]

...but why make extra work for yourself, if it's not needed.
That's my point.


Elvis

[bermuda]

...but why make extra work for yourself, if it's not needed.
That's my point.


Elvis

First, if muffling isn't needed, then no, there shouldn't be any effort.

Second, muffling takes 5 minutes.

Ok, I exaggerate... it takes 3 minutes.

In drumming - in life itself - some things are effortless. Some things are not. Of all the things about drums that take any effort, muffling is the least time-consuming. Try telling a soundman or engineer or producer or artist that it's too much effort to muffle your drums.

I can already guess their response. :)

But I digress. I think the answer to the original question has been stated a few times: if muffling is necessary, do it. If it's not... don't.

Bermuda

[Stu_Strib]

My point is, muffling is not always a bad thing.

Matt

I would just like to point out that all of your examples of muffled drumming are over 30 years old. Drums and sound engineering have advanced a lot during that time. If drums were able to sound like they do now back in the 60s/70s I'm not so sure the cardboard box sounding drums would have ever been popular?

But then again, there were a lot of wonky fads and fashions back then so who knows!

[Stu_Strib]

As such, I don't view muffling as an extra effort, any more than tuning or changing heads should be considered an effort. It's all part of the 'cost' of doing business as a drummer.


Muffling is actually a short cut. Instead of taking the time to get the reso and batter head in tune with themselves and each other, it is easier just to throw a slap of moongel up there. I think this is why some people frown on it, as they see it as a cheap trick instead of learning how to tune. Me, I just don't like the sound of muffled drums!

[Wile E. Coyote]

Muffling is actually a short cut. Instead of taking the time to get the reso and batter head in tune with themselves and each other, it is easier just to throw a slap of moongel up there. I think this is why some people frown on it, as they see it as a cheap trick instead of learning how to tune. Me, I just don't like the sound of muffled drums!
I agree... And I must also add the lack of time in studio. Sometimes people don't want to take enough time to tune and set the microphones in the right places to not get weird overtones, or just to choose the right ones!

[bermuda]

Muffling is actually a short cut. Instead of taking the time to get the reso and batter head in tune with themselves and each other, it is easier just to throw a slap of moongel up there. I think this is why some people frown on it, as they see it as a cheap trick instead of learning how to tune. Me, I just don't like the sound of muffled drums!

But muffling isn't only about controlling ring from ill-tuned heads. A tom may sound excellent on its own, but it may not be the right sound for the song/style at hand. Also, muffling helps accentuate fundamentals in a way that EQ at the board cannot. Assuming of course that that's a desired sound. Some genres dictate a wide opne sound, some do not, and others are in-between. The more experienced we become as drummers - as musicians - the more we are expected to know that.

The posts tell me that each drummer has a preference - a sound they personally like - and some even seem to insist on it, critics (and clients) be damned. I play drums in the context of music, not just to hear myself play, and my preference is to have the drums sound the way they sound best for the job at hand. And with "more experience as a drummer" I know up front how to make my drums sound for the job I'm about to do... it's rare that I have to be told. But I would never instist on a drum sound for a project or gig just because I happened to like it. The sounds have to work in context, not just on their own.

Sometimes I muffle, sometimes I don't. The important part is, I know when.

Bermuda

[druid]

Also of course I think miking...head selction...and type /brand of drums come into play alot here as well in deciding whether or not to muffle drums. I know one recording I did I used Remo Mastertouch series drums with a Pork Pie snare with Remo Rennisance batter heads on the toms and Ambassadors on the bottom. The miking we used was not close miking and although up close the drums had some ring and tone from 4 feet away( cathing toms in overheads) ...not as much.In live situations those same Remos have worked well with close miking... My DW drums have alot more tone than those Remos do so depending on how they were miked...the type of music...etc...I maybe would use some minor muffling in that instance. And I can hear the sustain much longer on those toms so if they were close miked...they may require some muffling.

As Mr Bemuda said though...I do not think muffling is an excuse to not tune your drums properly. and I think given all the other variables the decision to muffle or not is not a sign of not being able to tune.

I just know personally what I like is something more alive sounding but of course well tuned also....just like a flat boxy sound is not my thing...I don't like an open sounding drum that is poorly tuned (ie: noisy) either.

Also if you are recording something with your own band or some solo effort you obviously will have more control over preferences than when working for a client who may or may not have very specific ideas regarding sounds for the drums. I think this is what Mr. Bermuda is saying...and he is right.

[Elvis]

First, if muffling isn't needed, then no, there shouldn't be any effort.
I think the answer to the original question has been stated a few times: if muffling is necessary, do it. If it's not... don't.
Bermuda
That's all I was trying to say.

Elvis

[infinitehex]

I haven't read every single post within this thread, but I'd like to mention what I'm doing with my kit on this subject and a few other thoughts. First of all, I use a Remo Controlled Sound head with an Aquarian dampening static-cling ring on it to make it close off and stop ringing instantly (it works like a charm) and I also have a 42-link snare chain on it to get extra crackle and snappage. For all of my toms (12", 13", 16"), I use Remo Emperor Weatherking Coated's on the batter side and Ambassador Clear's for the undersides to control tone and stuff, but that's it - no dampening rings are needed and the sounds that come out are sweet so I let em sing. On my kick, I use an Aquarian (22") SuperKick II that has an internally glued-on foam ring around the edge and then an Aquarian Regulator (that has a 4 1/4" hole and inner circle glued-on foam ring in the center of the head) for the non-batter side. Everything sounds perfect to me. Just thought I'd share. Another really nice-looking batter head I've seen lately for toms is the Evans EC2 head. It's two-ply with a inner dampening ring that looks like it's some kinda super, super-thin piece of silver plastic. I might try them after my current Emperors die. I've taken them and the EMAD bass heads out of the boxes and the tom heads look great, but the EMAD bass heads are pieces of crap in my opinion.

[RudimentalDrummer]

It seems that the more experienced one becomes as a drummer, the need for muffling and muting the kit becomes less and less. I

But, when I was a beginner, I muffled the crap out of my kit to get rid of any excess overtones that sounded unnatural and was perfectly happy.

Obviously, becoming a more mature player, an experienced tuner and acquiring a "taste" for wide open sounding drums will lead most drummers to not use any muffling devices whatsoevr, but is there more to it than that? Is it better to not muffle your drums since most more experienced players don't? What are your thoughts?

Yeah...I notice my Drum Instructor doesn't muff his drums too and when he play, it sounded so nice. On the other hand - I muff all my drums to get rid of over-tone. I once took it out, then after a few minutes, I put it back on...overtones.....I am using Remo e-rings & Evans Dampers

I asked my self ... should I muff or not muff my kit - I still don't know the answer till now. My guess is that - Maybe at home where my place is small (I need to muff them, no sound-proofing, open space not in a room) - On the other hand, if I were to bring the same kit out and play in a big space where it is very open - I might have to take out the muffling.

I went to see a few clinic, those people like soundman and such...takes a long time I guess making the drum sound right - There is no muffling...so I guess it's a long & tedious process of tunning. Maybe muffling is a short-cut - but don't look so nice??? At the Music shop they muff their drums somehow using e-rings to make it sound better (a short-cut to tunning drums rather than tunning so many set that they don't have the luxury of time I guess).

If I know & could tune well, maybe I really don't need to muff - but muffling has it's disadvantage too - When I do a Press-Roll, of course it will sound so much better & easier without an e-ring on my snare...right?

[Skitch]

When I was starting out, I used Remo Pinstripes and Evans Hydraulics on the toms of my Ludwigs. I currently use ambassadors on my DWs.

I think it all depends on the sound that you are going for and the genre you are playing. For instance, jazz and fusion tend to allow for the more open sound and this may be due to the fact that most of these gigs are more acoustic in nature (not a lot of close micing), while rock and pop gigs seem to lean, but not to the exclusion of open sounds, to more muffled sounds, due to more close micing. For most country from the last 10-15 years, the sound is more muffled and lots of reverb and usually everything is triggered with some overheads to catch the ambience of the drums and cymbals to give the mix more life and snap. Currently, on the projects I have worked on, the more open sound is in fashion and there seems to be a more tolerant attitude of open sounding drums. That being said,

Here are a couple of points I would like to make:
Microphones hear differently than we human beings. A microphone doesn't care what kind of head is on the drum. A microphone can only represent and reproduce sound.
Microphones do not like toms.


Yes, a good engineer should be able to work with anything, theoretically. But the real world isn't theory. And I have all too many times run across the guys who think because they own a PA, this makes them a soundman. And some people are only used to working with what they have always worked with and can't handle anything else.

One of my favorite tom sounds that I would love to copy is the tom sounds on the Reckless album by Bryan Adams. Maybe Bermuda can let us in on how to get this sound.


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=drummermikemccraw

[Skitch]

But muffling isn't only about controlling ring from ill-tuned heads. A tom may sound excellent on its own, but it may not be the right sound for the song/style at hand. Also, muffling helps accentuate fundamentals in a way that EQ at the board cannot. Assuming of course that that's a desired sound. Some genres dictate a wide opne sound, some do not, and others are in-between. The more experienced we become as drummers - as musicians - the more we are expected to know that.

The posts tell me that each drummer has a preference - a sound they personally like - and some even seem to insist on it, critics (and clients) be damned. I play drums in the context of music, not just to hear myself play, and my preference is to have the drums sound the way they sound best for the job at hand. And with "more experience as a drummer" I know up front how to make my drums sound for the job I'm about to do... it's rare that I have to be told. But I would never instist on a drum sound for a project or gig just because I happened to like it. The sounds have to work in context, not just on their own.

Sometimes I muffle, sometimes I don't. The important part is, I know when.

Bermuda

Can you give us an example of the context of which you speak? This would be extremely useful! There seems to be so much misinformation out there and can be found anywhere from music videos (which should be viewed as entertainment anyway) to the marketing of studio rings as "Studio Rings".


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=drummermikemccraw

[bermuda]

Heya Mike!

Couple of examples of drum sounds being in (and out) context:

Bonham - perfect for Led Zeppelin, not good for funk. Or jazz. Or pop. Or most other rock for that matter.

Classic Joe Morello - perfect for Dave Brubeck, not for Led Zeppelin. Or most pop or rock.

Classic Jeff Porcaro (think Boz Scaggs' "Lowdown") - nice tight sound, great playing, but not suitable for much outside of 70s studio pop/rock.

I could make a really long list of drum sounds thatappeal to a lot of us, but - for better or worse - are stereotyped for certain genres and even bands (Led Zep is a prime example.) It's all well and good to be a pioneer, to take chances, to be a visionary, to think outside of the box with drum sounds... but they still have to sound good with the music in question. If a rockin song had a thin jazz-tuned kit in it, the song wouldn't work, no matter how ell everything was played, and how perfectly tuned the kit is for jazz purposes.

The matter of what's 'right' is very subjective of course, but we all have a sense of it and follow certain rules. Nothing to be ashamed of or try to fight the feeling, it comes with experience. And we all exercise the concept of what's 'right' in many ways and to varying degrees. Simple example we can probably all relate to: when we sit down at a bop kit, most of us start playing jazzy or drum & bass licks. When we sit at a big rock kit, we play some obvious rock beats & fills. When we sit at a classic Simmons kit, we play Thomas Dolby's "Blinded With Science." Well, a little exaggeration perhaps, but the idea is, drums make a lot of different sounds, and those sounds have certain genres and production values where they work best, and other genres where they don't work at all.

Experienced drummers know what sounds/drums to use for particular styles. If a drummer plays only jazz, they're not going to use a Bonham kit. And a drummer who plays only death metal is not going to use a Yamaha HipGig.

Bermuda

[Skitch]

Thanks Bermuda! These are great examples!



Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=drummermikemccraw

[Skitch]

Heya Mike!

Couple of examples of drum sounds being in (and out) context:

Bonham - perfect for Led Zeppelin, not good for funk. Or jazz. Or pop. Or most other rock for that matter.

Classic Joe Morello - perfect for Dave Brubeck, not for Led Zeppelin. Or most pop or rock.

Classic Jeff Porcaro (think Boz Scaggs' "Lowdown") - nice tight sound, great playing, but not suitable for much outside of 70s studio pop/rock.

I could make a really long list of drum sounds thatappeal to a lot of us, but - for better or worse - are stereotyped for certain genres and even bands (Led Zep is a prime example.) It's all well and good to be a pioneer, to take chances, to be a visionary, to think outside of the box with drum sounds... but they still have to sound good with the music in question. If a rockin song had a thin jazz-tuned kit in it, the song wouldn't work, no matter how ell everything was played, and how perfectly tuned the kit is for jazz purposes.

The matter of what's 'right' is very subjective of course, but we all have a sense of it and follow certain rules. Nothing to be ashamed of or try to fight the feeling, it comes with experience. And we all exercise the concept of what's 'right' in many ways and to varying degrees. Simple example we can probably all relate to: when we sit down at a bop kit, most of us start playing jazzy or drum & bass licks. When we sit at a big rock kit, we play some obvious rock beats & fills. When we sit at a classic Simmons kit, we play Thomas Dolby's "Blinded With Science." Well, a little exaggeration perhaps, but the idea is, drums make a lot of different sounds, and those sounds have certain genres and production values where they work best, and other genres where they don't work at all.

Experienced drummers know what sounds/drums to use for particular styles. If a drummer plays only jazz, they're not going to use a Bonham kit. And a drummer who plays only death metal is not going to use a Yamaha HipGig.

Bermuda


From what I have read here, Bermuda, it sounds as if you are saying we shouldn't fight the evolution of drum sounds. For instance, in the era of motown's golden age, the drums were basically a jazz sound but recorded from a distance since close miking hadn't been refined yet. The point is that the drum sound should be "in character" with the genre.

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=drummermikemccraw

[Synthetik]

I am not sure there is any completion to this topic. But I will make a short list of the points made so far.

1) Following the genre/what the music calls for...(IE no Bonham sound for funk)

2) Following your taste, (or the engineers taste)

3) Generally speaking, skill has little to do with amount of muffling inasmuch as genre does. (IE it is generally common practice that modern music demands more drum resonance and less muffling than they did in 1976.)

4) Wide open sans muffling: as is mention the mics repeat what they hear. If wide open works, then it is good. According to a few of the videos I have been watching, many drummers don't have any visible muffling.

5) With better drums, better electronics than 30 years ago, it's probably easier now to use less muffling anyway.

6) Using tuning and drumheads to achieve overtone control.

I hope that sums up the salient points thusfar.

[Freddie Freeloader]

muffling drums isn't a bad thing. i mean, try to imagine what the beatles or the stones or many of the earlier jazz drummers recorded on the equipment we use today. they'd sound terrible. i mean, they'd still probably be playing the same way.... but sound on their recordings wouldn't be what it is.
its all about context. sometimes muffling works for the music, sometimes it doesn't. if some of those fusion guys like weckl and bissonnette or whatever muffled their drums, they'd sound horrible playing their cutting edge music with those sounds.
everytime time i've done any kind of recording in a studio, i've had engineers tell me how drums are supposed to be tuned, muffled, and even played. but there simply can't be a 'norm'. every drummer is different and every drummer hears sound (his own sound, or otherwise) differently. when i finally got to do my own thing at home, i dampened my drums sometimes and often put absolutely no dampening on my drums other times. all depending on the music i was playing.

i find it hard to believe that 99% of studio guys don't dampen their drums in studios, like someone said above. there will be occasions when they have to because recording rooms vary and make drums sound very different.

[Synthetik]

I have to concur with Freddy. I find it diffacult to understand that every live or studio situation can be handled wide open, without muffling. Overtones have to be a bear in certain rooms.

I know that jazzmen like thier kits close to a specific note, or at least a full, resonant open tone.

Incidentally, I still enjoy 70's music (like Mark Craney with Gino Vanelli) and his sound.

I have seen 70's acts, and they aren't as dead sounding as on record.

Also, I'd like someone to address the rumors I keep hearing about how problematic DW's are in the studio. I have heard that Gretsch have been substituted in. (IIRC Hal Blaine mentions this in his book from back in the day.)

[bermuda]

From what I have read here, Bermuda, it sounds as if you are saying we shouldn't fight the evolution of drum sounds. For instance, in the era of motown's golden age, the drums were basically a jazz sound but recorded from a distance since close miking hadn't been refined yet. The point is that the drum sound should be "in character" with the genre.

Exactly.

For those who don't like certain drum sounds, they would do best to simply avoid playing those musical styles (rather than insist on an inappropriate sound just because they happen to like it.)

Sometimes drums will be muffled, sometimes not. Sometimes they're tuned high, sometimes low. Sometimes you need 6 toms, sometimes you need only one... or none. Drummers who know when and how to do what, and who are willing to evolve and grow, will enjoy success. Those who are too rigid will have a difficult time getting ahead.

Bermuda

[bermuda]

One of my favorite tom sounds that I would love to copy is the tom sounds on the Reckless album by Bryan Adams. Maybe Bermuda can let us in on how to get this sound.


I'm familiar with the classic Pat Steward (Stewart?) sounds, I suspect they're also on the Reckless album (I'm away from my CDs right now.)

As with so many recorded sounds we've come to embrace, there's a certain amount of studio engineering that goes into creating that end result. As for Pat's classic tom sound, they sound like medium to large sizes, muffled slightly on top and possibly the resos as well, hit hard, EQd for some extra punch, and with verb. I happen to love the sound as well, and if I were to recreate it I'd use clear 2-ply heads on 13/14/16" toms, muffled to take away most of the resonance so that just the punch/attack remains, and let the engineer take them the rest of the way.

Part of the drummer's job is to know when something is the engineer's job. :)

Bermuda

[cdrums21]

I'm familiar with the classic Pat Steward (Stewart?) sounds, I suspect they're also on the Reckless album (I'm away from my CDs right now.)

As with so many recorded sounds we've come to embrace, there's a certain amount of studio engineering that goes into creating that end result. As for Pat's classic tom sound, they sound like medium to large sizes, muffled slightly on top and possibly the resos as well, hit hard, EQd for some extra punch, and with verb. I happen to love the sound as well, and if I were to recreate it I'd use clear 2-ply heads on 13/14/16" toms, muffled to take away most of the resonance so that just the punch/attack remains, and let the engineer take them the rest of the way.

Part of the drummer's job is to know when something is the engineer's job. :)

Bermuda

Bermuda, don't you think that the room and mic placement has alot to do with getting drums to sound a certain way, sometimes even more than processing or tuning? I know in the studio that I do most of my session work in, if I muffled the batter and resonant heads of my toms and recorded them, they would sound like crap, or at least crap to me. That also would translate into not being very inspired while playing a crappy sounding kit in the studio, making the session less than enjoyable. I'm not saying that we should have awesome sounding drums 100% of the time, I'm just saying that I think there are other variables to take into consideration in getting a drum sound before you go slapping the duct tape on. I've heard wide open toms getting the same end result as muffled toms due to the mic placement, room ambience, processing, etc. Would you agree?

[bermuda]

Bermuda, don't you think that the room and mic placement has alot to do with getting drums to sound a certain way, sometimes even more than processing or tuning?

Yep - that's the engineer's job. I can't tune the drums to make a room sound... I can only estimate what they'll need to sound like if the close mic and room mics are blended.

I'm not saying that we should have awesome sounding drums 100% of the time, I'm just saying that I think there are other variables to take into consideration in getting a drum sound before you go slapping the duct tape on. I've heard wide open toms getting the same end result as muffled toms due to the mic placement, room ambience, processing, etc. Would you agree?

Not completely, no. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, muffling does more than simply control ring. It accentuates the fundamental (by diminishing the harmonics) and produces a different sound than the same drum, wide open, with the resonance gated out.

Not every drum sound needs to start out open, just as not every sound is benefitted by muffling. I never assume that either is correct until the time comes to decide what sound I'm going for (or have been directed to go for.) Starting from a position of 'toms need to be wide open, and only muffled if absolutely necessary' is a real pitfall. Sometimes the sound needed can only be achieved with some muffling, and those are sounds that cannot be extracted from an open tom... they need to be created with some padding.

With respect to the Brayn Adams tom sounds, the ambience - undoubtedly digital - has more to do with the sound than the tuning. In order to make it work, the toms need to be punchy, not ringy. It's possible that they gated open toms and then added verb, but in that era, gating was used differently (think Tony Thompson & Power Station) so I doubt that's what they did. At least, it's not what I would expect was done given the resulting sound.

I probably should revise what I said about the drummer/engineer relationship. If the drummer and engineer have been working together for a while - like I have with Al's engineer, Tony Papa - and if they respect each other - and we do - then there is a certain amount of suggestions that we can comfortably make to each other. If we were doing a Bryan Adams parody, I might suggest how I think the tom sound was achieved. NOT to tell him his job, but more to let him know why I've tuned the drums the way I did for that track. But I don't do that in cases where I don't know the engineer, or where my opinion hasn't been asked. Sometimes my expertise is requested, sometimes it's not, and either way is fine - I'm there to play the drums, not try and produce the track.

Bermuda

[Skitch]

Sometimes you need 6 toms, sometimes you need only one... or none.
Bermuda

This might make you laugh!! Last year, I was doing a double gig day and had to use two sets. The same band was playing the both gigs. The set that I used during the day (we had to load in early for the night gig - hence the need for two sets) was only kick snare and a hi hat. I had to play both Jessie's Girl and Journey's Separate Ways with just a kick, snare and Hi hat. Being the stickler for "playing it a close to the record as possible", I was flipping the snares off and back on every other beat on the Journey song. When the drum breaks came up, the band lost all compusure as the big drum sound was replaced by a "Timbale" playing the figures from the record. Something was then said about Tito Puente and a latin gig.


Drummers who know when and how to do what, and who are willing to evolve and grow, will enjoy success. Those who are too rigid will have a difficult time getting ahead.Bermuda


As the Marines say, "Improvise, Adapt and Overcome."


This thread has reminded of an old MD article on Steve Gadd (July 1982). Rick Mattingly brought up that some drummer complain about having to take off their bottom heads, use tape or change their tuning. He then went on to say,

"RM: I've heard drummers complain,
"Yeah, but if I do whatever the engineer
wants, how will I ever get known for my
sound?"
SG: I never tried to get known for my
sound. I've never tried to do that. I don't
really have a sound. I mean, a lot of the
CTI dates I played on Rudy Van Gelder's
Gretsch drums. To me, I don't have a
sound. I try to adjust the sound for what-
ever the date is."



Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=drummermikemccraw

[Skitch]

I'm familiar with the classic Pat Steward (Stewart?) sounds, I suspect they're also on the Reckless album (I'm away from my CDs right now.)

As with so many recorded sounds we've come to embrace, there's a certain amount of studio engineering that goes into creating that end result. As for Pat's classic tom sound, they sound like medium to large sizes, muffled slightly on top and possibly the resos as well, hit hard, EQd for some extra punch, and with verb. I happen to love the sound as well, and if I were to recreate it I'd use clear 2-ply heads on 13/14/16" toms, muffled to take away most of the resonance so that just the punch/attack remains, and let the engineer take them the rest of the way.

Part of the drummer's job is to know when something is the engineer's job. :)

Bermuda

Thanks for the tips!


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=drummermikemccraw

[bermuda]

This thread has reminded of an old MD article on Steve Gadd (July 1982). Rick Mattingly brought up that some drummer complain about having to take off their bottom heads, use tape or change their tuning. He then went on to say,

"RM: I've heard drummers complain,
"Yeah, but if I do whatever the engineer
wants, how will I ever get known for my
sound?"
SG: I never tried to get known for my
sound. I've never tried to do that. I don't
really have a sound. I mean, a lot of the
CTI dates I played on Rudy Van Gelder's
Gretsch drums. To me, I don't have a
sound. I try to adjust the sound for what-
ever the date is."


That Steve Gadd guy sounds pretty smart! I wonder if he ever had any success? :)

[NUTHA JASON]

you have to really earn the right and be darn lucky to GET YOUR OWN SOUND. john bonham had his own sound. lucky guy.

but in the modern arena it should be all song first and ego last. once you have been on many albums, are in a huge super group etc then maybe you can get a signature sound. i'd rather be known for my playing than for how my kit sounds. as long as the kit sounds good in the song my job is to make the drumming sound good in the song.

j

[Synthetik]

you have to really earn the right and be darn lucky to GET YOUR OWN SOUND. john bonham had his own sound. lucky guy.

j

I think a big part of it is due to how much influence the drummer has in forming the band's sound. Bonham, Gadd, Peart and others have the power to call the shots.

The latest DVD from Peart reveals how he wanted the snare to be mic'd where he liked the sound of it.

I am sure those guys can tell the soundman where to find a new job if they don't like it.

[cdrums21]

Yep - that's the engineer's job. I can't tune the drums to make a room sound... I can only estimate what they'll need to sound like if the close mic and room mics are blended.



Not completely, no. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, muffling does more than simply control ring. It accentuates the fundamental (by diminishing the harmonics) and produces a different sound than the same drum, wide open, with the resonance gated out.

Not every drum sound needs to start out open, just as not every sound is benefitted by muffling. I never assume that either is correct until the time comes to decide what sound I'm going for (or have been directed to go for.) Starting from a position of 'toms need to be wide open, and only muffled if absolutely necessary' is a real pitfall. Sometimes the sound needed can only be achieved with some muffling, and those are sounds that cannot be extracted from an open tom... they need to be created with some padding.

With respect to the Brayn Adams tom sounds, the ambience - undoubtedly digital - has more to do with the sound than the tuning. In order to make it work, the toms need to be punchy, not ringy. It's possible that they gated open toms and then added verb, but in that era, gating was used differently (think Tony Thompson & Power Station) so I doubt that's what they did. At least, it's not what I would expect was done given the resulting sound.

I probably should revise what I said about the drummer/engineer relationship. If the drummer and engineer have been working together for a while - like I have with Al's engineer, Tony Papa - and if they respect each other - and we do - then there is a certain amount of suggestions that we can comfortably make to each other. If we were doing a Bryan Adams parody, I might suggest how I think the tom sound was achieved. NOT to tell him his job, but more to let him know why I've tuned the drums the way I did for that track. But I don't do that in cases where I don't know the engineer, or where my opinion hasn't been asked. Sometimes my expertise is requested, sometimes it's not, and either way is fine - I'm there to play the drums, not try and produce the track.

Bermuda

Good points and well said and explained. I can see why you hold the position you do. :o)
Thank you for being so informative and replying to these threads.

[bigbang]

I'm familiar with the classic Pat Steward (Stewart?) sounds, I suspect they're also on the Reckless album (I'm away from my CDs right now.)

As with so many recorded sounds we've come to embrace, there's a certain amount of studio engineering that goes into creating that end result. As for Pat's classic tom sound, they sound like medium to large sizes, muffled slightly on top and possibly the resos as well, hit hard, EQd for some extra punch, and with verb. I happen to love the sound as well, and if I were to recreate it I'd use clear 2-ply heads on 13/14/16" toms, muffled to take away most of the resonance so that just the punch/attack remains, and let the engineer take them the rest of the way.

Part of the drummer's job is to know when something is the engineer's job. :)

Bermuda
Yeah it's Pat Stewart , also played with" the odds" and does session work.
I remember reading how this sound was achieved in a modern drummer issue from the 80's
He used big drums ( power toms , large sizes ) and if I'm not mistaken there were 3 mics on the snare drum ( one on top , two underneath ) and all toms had 2 mics on them ( one up top and one under). Everything else Bermuda mentioned sounds accurate.
Interestingly, Pat also had a similar sound going with " the odds". I don't know if they recorded in the same studio , with the same engineer or if it's Pat's way of recording drums.

[RudimentalDrummer]

Hi everyone

I was just wondering if this Muffling thing has anything to do with the drums. Yesterday I bought New Evans J1 Batter for all my Snares.

I tune all the snare at my Living Room similarly....Funny thing is I find all my snare drums sound better with the Ring...except for one Snare...My Old 1970s Ludwig SuperSensitive Snare (My Instructor gave me) which sounded so nice without any muffler.....I mean..It's the oldest one I have there.....what a surprise - I love this snare.

[Skitch]

That Steve Gadd guy sounds pretty smart! I wonder if he ever had any success? :)
Bermuda,

Here is the issue that I face and maybe some of the other drummers here as well....

Since I play in a cover band most of the time, the music spans decades and, therefore, it can be downright impossible to recreate the exact drum sound for each era, short of triggering. What do you suggest?



Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=drummermikemccraw

[bermuda]

Bermuda,

Here is the issue that I face and maybe some of the other drummers here as well....

Since I play in a cover band most of the time, the music spans decades and, therefore, it can be downright impossible to recreate the exact drum sound for each era, short of triggering. What do you suggest?

I face that on the very gig for which I pride myself on specific sounds when recording each song. And while I'm a prime candidate for triggering in concert, I don't prefer it for a few reasons. But that's for another thread.

What I do is tune to the most average, normal sound possible. I realize that's very subjective, but what I mean is I stay away from extreme tunings and sounds - no specialty cymbals except for a China, the snare is not high-pitched or overly pronounced, the kick is slightly muffled, not too poppy and not too boomy, and toms are very round and tuned right in the middle of their tunable range, maybe a little towards the low end.

My drums are thin fiberglass (Impact) and when I say they sound very average, it's meant as a compliment. They sound like... drums. Maybe somewhere between a resonant '60s kit, and a slightly tighter '70s kit. Just kinda normal... maybe even kinda "eh" to most ears. BUT, it's the non-descript sounds that work for more music than the specific, extreme tunings.

Also, in concert, sounds are a bit more forgivable than on a CD. To an extent, there's a consistency and certain energy in having the kit sound the same on every song, as opposed to triggering sounds and really duplicating the production of the recordings. We're perfectionists, but we're also a real live band.

So, short of triggering, the best that can be done is to find a middle ground tuning-wise and know that it will work well over more styles/eras than a tightly or loosely tuned kit.

Bermuda

[bonzolead]

Here is the timeline for popular drum sounds:

Up to the 60's: few plies, mixed woods, a lot of fat, resonant, warm sound

70's/early 80's: Dead, thuddy minimal resonance (except for Bonzo) Hydraulic heads, heads taped to death, single head drums etc...

Mid 80's-present- market splits. trends of more resonant shells, and also shells that have a big attack. Very few thuddy sounding kits anymore. A demand for a "More sophisticated/whole" tone from drums.

Generally, drums that don't resonate well are not as widely accepted anymore. Drummers have become very musically aware of the sound of thier kits (much the domain of Jazz drummers in the past) and maximum resonance with some overtone control is the new standard. Sustain is one of DW's big selling points.

Since I lived through the changes, I can say that my taste definately leans toward the original "full" tone with sustain and minimal overtones.

Illustrating the "now": a very inexpensive Gretsch Catalina club outfitted with coated G1's really had a tone reminiscent of the 60's. It was a far cry from entry kits just a few years ago (and some now) that just thud, or have this attack but no presence.
The thing I hated about the 80's snare sound is when the snare would sound like a floor tom with some snare wires underneath. makes me cringe.Blah,and like you said about the 70's drum sound (concert toms) they kinda sounded like Rubbermaid garbage cans Blah also

Bonzolead

[Synthetik]

The thing I hated about the 80's snare sound is when the snare would sound like a floor tom with some snare wires underneath. makes me cringe.Blah,and like you said about the 70's drum sound (concert toms) they kinda sounded like Rubbermaid garbage cans Blah also

Bonzolead

Yeah I remember that. That was also an era of hydraulic heads on top and bottom(!) Something about putting a drumhead as thick as a trashcan lid on a snare that just doesn't do it for me.

I have decided that my personal favorite drum sound has to have thick midrange presence. That type of sound generated by 1960's Rogers drums, or modern stuff like DW Collectors, Tempus, Mapex Saturn and so on. I prefer that nearfield warmth to something else that may have reduced midrange in favor of attack.

I enjoy that throaty resonance and sustain. The 70/80's had it's sound and that's fine. But nothing like that rich, punchy (mostly) open sound. I do wonder what some of those artists would sound like if the same tune was recorded now. Wait...overproduced and ruined.. :P

[Skitch]

I face that on the very gig for which I pride myself on specific sounds when recording each song. And while I'm a prime candidate for triggering in concert, I don't prefer it for a few reasons. But that's for another thread.

What I do is tune to the most average, normal sound possible. I realize that's very subjective, but what I mean is I stay away from extreme tunings and sounds - no specialty cymbals except for a China, the snare is not high-pitched or overly pronounced, the kick is slightly muffled, not too poppy and not too boomy, and toms are very round and tuned right in the middle of their tunable range, maybe a little towards the low end.

My drums are thin fiberglass (Impact) and when I say they sound very average, it's meant as a compliment. They sound like... drums. Maybe somewhere between a resonant '60s kit, and a slightly tighter '70s kit. Just kinda normal... maybe even kinda "eh" to most ears. BUT, it's the non-descript sounds that work for more music than the specific, extreme tunings.

Also, in concert, sounds are a bit more forgivable than on a CD. To an extent, there's a consistency and certain energy in having the kit sound the same on every song, as opposed to triggering sounds and really duplicating the production of the recordings. We're perfectionists, but we're also a real live band.

So, short of triggering, the best that can be done is to find a middle ground tuning-wise and know that it will work well over more styles/eras than a tightly or loosely tuned kit.

Bermuda

Again excellent information!


I have a 15" rack tom ( I am a floor tom aethiest) that has mondo resonance. I was thinking of trying out a remo PS3 on it just to tame it down. But the funny thing is, is when there is a competent soundman on the gig, it never a problem. But when it someone who isn't a very good soundman, usually band member running sound form the stage, there is usually a problem of feedback. I run across this problem frequently when playing in country bands (a staple gig in my parts). The typical soundman on this gig wants a flat dead compressed sound with lots of reverb added to it. Listen to Gary Allen's version of "Runaway", a worthy remake to say the least, and you'll have an idea of the drum sound I am talking about

Anyone else run across this?


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=drummermikemccraw

[Tim Wingham]

I'm no professional and I do sometimes muffle my snare with a mylar ring, which produces a fantastic fat sound. (Good enough for Gadd good enough for me!) The joy of using a ring is that you can take it off and on as you please. A ring can make such a difference on a steel snare. Virtually gives you two drums in one.

On toms I always try to have batter and resonant heads tuned exactly (and I do mean exactly) the same.

I think sometimes people overly muffle because they are only listening to the kit from behind - ie where you are playing from. Get someone else to hit your drums while you stand in front and listen. (And not necessarily too close). That's where the sound is going. What might sound excessively ringy behind can be far less in front, especially when playing live with other amplified instruments.

However, Steve White does use a Moon Gel in the studio at times, - he told me - and they don't come more professional than him.

TW.

[Acronomic]

I know that I've developed a better taste in sound over the few years I've been drumming.
At first, I didn't know what I wanted from a drum, but I think I tried to get very little resonance from toms, bass and snare. When I progressed, I bought moongel, used Hydraulic heads, taped the heads, tuned them dead.

I still favor a relatively short tom sound, but as I said I've developed a better taste IMO, and I want the toms to sound more lively, so I'd sooner choose single ply heads than double or muffled heads.

I also think that having a better kit encourages tuning instead of muffling... personally I've never owned a semi-pro or pro kit, but I don't think I'll often muffle my drums once I do get a pro kit. *Especially* when it comes to the snare.

[mikejames]

I've been playing since 1964, and think it's fair to say that I've tried pretty much everything mentioned here. My dad was a drummer too, so he impressed upon me the idea of playing a decent instrument. It doesn't have to be the "best", (and that's subjective, anyway) but it should be good quality. (heads, sticks, cymbals, etc. too)

It's really this simple, from OTHER people's point of view:
If people like your unmuffled sound, they will call it "resonant". If they don't, they'll call it "ringy". And of course, how the instrument is played makes the biggest difference of all. You can always muffle a drum, on a moment-by-moment basis, using your technique, but you cannot ADD resonance to a muffled drum. So to me, muffling limits the "vocabulary".

But, certainly recording the drums with a mic 1 inch from the head, in a small studio booth is a different deal. We often go through all kinds of convoluted things, to achieve a live, resonant sound. Muffle the drums, then add reverb to the sound, and possibly gate it. That's not what I like to do, but it certainly has been a popular method for many engineers. I would think the main reason it's popular is that it's easier than waiting and hoping that the drummer can achieve the sound acoustically, in their particular room. Time is money for these guys, and they often have a formula they want to use. You either adopt the philosophy of pleasing the producer, or avoid that kind of studio work.

Personally, I prefer resonant drums.

[druid]

One other aspect to add to the "debate" as it were...I think there is a HUGE difference between a soundguy who requests muffling because they have a definite idea of what they want to hear rather than some sound guys I've dealt with who are just used to one thing and frankly act like they don't want to be bothered. I have worked with both and the second type is pretty annoying usually spends very little time working on sounds at all.

[balboa]

we mature players also have more finess and our motor skills are finer tuned. i used to play through the drum and beat the skins hard. now, i never break sticks, cymbals or heads and the techniques ive learned have helped me bring the true sounds of the drums out.

[Freddie Freeloader]

it's all in the hands.

[Joe Morris]

I haven't used muffling on my drums in any recording sessions over the last 20 years and I do no less than 300 sessions a year. I have only been asked once or twice to put some (moon gel) on my snare. For what its worth. Joe

[fat in the middle]

The original band situation is where one has the ability to develop their 'sound'. Steve Gadd plays with everyone, therefor has to be chameleon. Theres alot of players out there that are in original projects, so they can develop a sound. That said, knowing the history of drums sounds, and the ability to access them is invaluable for even an original band. I saw Pat Stewart play, and he was constantly altering his tuning on his snare between songs for different timbres. One lug can change the sound!

[SqueakySpeedKing]

It seems that the more experienced one becomes as a drummer, the need for muffling and muting the kit becomes less and less. I know for me, any type of muffling on my snare or toms takes away certain sonic characteristics that I find desireable.... the high end bite of the snare, the attack and full resonant tone of the toms. But, when I was a beginner, I muffled the crap out of my kit to get rid of any excess overtones that sounded unnatural and was perfectly happy. Obviously, becoming a more mature player, an experienced tuner and acquiring a "taste" for wide open sounding drums will lead most drummers to not use any muffling devices whatsoevr, but is there more to it than that? Is it better to not muffle your drums since most more experienced players don't? What are your thoughts?

I did the same thing. I was intimidated by riveted cymbals. Now my drums are always wide open and I use larger, thin cymbals. Some with rivets. One gains the element of control as one gets older.

[burnthehero]

As we get older, we see things in the proper perspective. And the nuances and subtleties become much more appealing.

[PocketGroove]

I think that as you become more experienced, you start to know what sounds you want from your drums, and tune accordingly, in my opinion dampening should never be a substitute for careful tuning, but often a little piece of moongel can take away just the right amount of unwanted ring.

[PQleyR]

One other aspect to add to the "debate" as it were...I think there is a HUGE difference between a soundguy who requests muffling because they have a definite idea of what they want to hear rather than some sound guys I've dealt with who are just used to one thing and frankly act like they don't want to be bothered. I have worked with both and the second type is pretty annoying usually spends very little time working on sounds at all.

The vast majority I've encountered fall into that latter category. Musicians are just there to make their jobs more difficult (and possible in the first place).

[Royal]

My opinion is that as a musician gets more experienced he/she knows how to tune the drums to get the sound required & being happy with it needn't dampen the drums too much, or at all.

As mentioned, if a beginner has a real cheap sounding kit & little or no experience in tuning, then the desire to muffle the drums is understandable.

Also....I come across too many drummers that don't get someone else to play/hit their drums so they (the drummer) can hear the true sound of the kit from a distance.

[Paul_Klein]

In your typical bar-setting where the sound guy will usually close mic the entire kit (which is the type of gig my band plays), is it probably best to muffle the snare/toms a bit? Thinking back, I usually don't muffle them AT ALL (I do muffle the bass drum always). Would I probably be helping the sound guy/our sound if I started muffling in this type of situation?

[Cymbalrider]

The biggest reason I've noticed is that people generally don't know any better. They are taught to believe (from each other and the general market) that you need Remo Pinstripes with muffle rings and pillows and kick pads and such. Then you are told to play on these hard to get a big sound. This is pointless and leads to so many people breaking sticks, heads and cymbals. Personally, I have two kits to cover all extremes. I have my Mapex 6 piece studio kit with the modern suspended toms all with EC2s to get a moderately resonant sound to fit most styles. Then comes my Gretsch Catalina Rock kit with big 26,13,16,18 drums all left open with a warm sound. Muffling drums limits what you can do with them including the sensitivity. Controlling the sustain, or dampening, is ok, and sometimes needed depending on the room.

[MadJazz]

I thought of bringing this thread up instead of making a similar one.

My question is: Why don't we muffle cymbals as much as we muffle drums?

The more muffled the drums are, the more dominant the cymbals are perceived.
I think there needs to be a good balance between the sustain of drums and cymbals. How do you cover that? I hardly ever see people muffle their cymbals but we don't want crashes and rides ringing for ages while the drums are focused.

[Retrovertigo]

i cant believe that this thread has persisted for three whole pages. what is left to discuss? wide open drums sound big and they "sing". thats cool. muffled drums sound dead and warm. thats cool too. GREAT! move on!

[keep it simple]

i cant believe that this thread has persisted for three whole pages. what is left to discuss? wide open drums sound big and they "sing". thats cool. muffled drums sound dead and warm. thats cool too. GREAT! move on!

You've actually managed to miss the meaning behind the original question and over simplified the resolution.

[Elvis]

i cant believe that this thread has persisted for three whole pages. what is left to discuss? wide open drums sound big and they "sing". thats cool. muffled drums sound dead and warm. thats cool too. GREAT! move on!
Not always.
Sometimes muffled drums sound dead and COLD.
Sometimes wide open drums sing but sound small.

...and sometimes, that's the sound the drummer is going for.




Elvis
P.S. I agree with "keep it simple", too.

[Bruce M. Thomson]

good thread, that`s like "How can can I get rid of that dirt on my T-shirt? Throw it away or make the best out of it and experiment?"
I really never muffled drums, NEVER and I hate it. I hate the sound, this typical "bob"- sound, just awful. I think muffling drums extremly is just like making "make-up" on my face, it just hide the actual problems.
Better way would be to experiment with tuning till you find a good tuning and try out different heads. I think it`s good to explore how the drums react on different tunings, it will make you of course much more experienced. I had this problem a few days ago: My 12" tom sounded hoorible because of an awful lot of overtones...a good friend and guitarist said that I could "muffle away" this problem...just don`t like to do it, I kept up experimenting and reading some tuning guides et voilà: I got a good open jazzy sound.
So, just ask yourself: What gives me more experience? To muffle or to experiment till you find and to read? I guess it`s the second possibility...

Karl
You are very wise for such a young man; I do believe you are going to one hell of a jazz drummer. In my case it is the other musicians who are generally insisting on some sort of tone control
( they are not jazz players) so I find a balance, in small spaces I will use e-rings and the Evans pillow in the bass, otherwise I prefer the freedom of full on, unrestricted drums that sing.

[Bruce M. Thomson]

Yes, all points are correct and Bermuda has the experience in the studio (engineers do like less resonance on the drums in most cases) and on the road; what I like was DrummerCarl's observation that he became more personal with his sound and that it perfected his tuning. You may still have to make adjustments for studio and room and band mates but it's like high end audio; once you know all of the rules then you can start breaking them. So in the end it sort of comes back to tuning and like in audio, what sounds good sounds good, regardless of how you got there in the end. My walnut Black Panther sounds great either way but if I am playing some countrified soulful rock it sounds very spot on with an e-ring on it, so I use it.

[Bruce M. Thomson]

Just a reminder that George Martin made Ringo throw tea towels on his drums for many tracks. Any complaints?

[Strangelove]

Drum muffling as far as my recollections go (and I am 52 years old) go back to when Remo Weatherkings replaced calfskin heads on drums. While the Remos were great at holding their tune compared with calfskins, they put off the nastiestiest of sounds, a plastic ring or overtone, especially when tuned at higher tensions. I always figured the built in mufflers that drum makers went to during this era was to get plastic heads to sound more like natural hides. Those that do not understand why muffling may have been desirable should sometime play a set of calfskin headed drums, then you may see. I have never played natural hides that needed muffling, even at high tensions.

[Bruce M. Thomson]

Drum muffling as far as my recollections go (and I am 52 years old) go back to when Remo Weatherkings replaced calfskin heads on drums. While the Remos were great at holding their tune compared with calfskins, they put off the nastiestiest of sounds, a plastic ring or overtone, especially when tuned at higher tensions. I always figured the built in mufflers that drum makers went to during this era was to get plastic heads to sound more like natural hides. Those that do not understand why muffling may have been desirable should sometime play a set of calfskin headed drums, then you may see. I have never played natural hides that needed muffling, even at high tensions.

That is a good point, improvements are always being made. It was Krupa I believe who had hi-hats raised off of the floor for example, was there resistance to that idea? I think not so I don't think there are set rules about what you can or can not do with your drums.
I think adjusting your tone by what ever means you choose to achieve your desired sound is just fine and something drummers seem to have more control of than say a trumpet player (Dizzy being a noted exception, he was criticized back then but his accidental discovery of a bent horn is quite acceptable now) and when you think of it Bonham, who is quite popular on this site used normal heads rather than resonates to achieve the sound he wanted and felt strips on his bass. I read an article where the writer was trying to achieve a similar sound of a tom he heard on a standard R & B number, he could not get it right and it bothered him; finally he was able to meet the drummer from that track and ask him (by the way it was a Al Green song) how he did it. It turned out not to be a tom but a de tuned conga drum. Creativity is as much about drumming as is anything else. By the way, empty restaurant serviette containers make a fantastic percussion tool, try it out.

[Bruce M. Thomson]

you have to really earn the right and be darn lucky to GET YOUR OWN SOUND. john bonham had his own sound. lucky guy.

but in the modern arena it should be all song first and ego last. once you have been on many albums, are in a huge super group etc then maybe you can get a signature sound. i'd rather be known for my playing than for how my kit sounds. as long as the kit sounds good in the song my job is to make the drumming sound good in the song.

j

Couldn't agree more. Funny thing about "that" sound. Bill Bruford had a distinctive drum style on the early YES albums and notably the snare was unique sounding, for years he said it was a secret when asked if it was a special tuning, finally he revealed that the sound came from the fact that Chris Squire plays very high up on the bass scale and subsequently Bruford said he had to hit rim shots all of the time in order not to be lost in the mix, the producer did the rest. Adapting and overcoming a problem created The end result and not a desire to produce a "Bruford sound" . His playing style I would say is unique however.

[Stoney]

Wouldn't say it's down to experience just the sound you're going for. I personally prefer the open unmuffled sound but am prepared to dampen depending on the circumstances.
A famous producer once taped down a leather wallet on my snare and I was more than happy with the results because it suited the music I was playing at the time. That kinda dead 70's sound.

There is also the argument that less experienced drummers don't know how to tune and muffling a drum becomes the easy way out. That's a different story though as those people are just going for the only sound they know how to deal with whereas the more experience have the option of muffled or open.

It's just about tuning and muffling to fit what's best for the music.

[Strangelove]

That kinda dead 70's sound.

Oh, thanks alot! (from a 70's drummer) :-} Joking aside, I do admit that yanking off resos, cloth in drums, duct tape, etc, ad nauseum went way overboard during that era. But it was also an era when lower drum tunings started, too. Dead on dead was the result

There is also the argument that less experienced drummers don't know how to tune and muffling a drum becomes the easy way out. That's a different story though as those people are just going for the only sound they know how to deal with whereas the more experience have the option of muffled or open.

It's just about tuning and muffling to fit what's best for the music.

Many drummers these days don't even try to tune, just keeping everything but the snare a twist above wrinkle. I wonder why anybody would even pay more for exotic woods with a tuning scheme like that. I think maybe some of the more experienced drummers need to make more of a point to the younger ones how much better a set sounds when tuned correctly, and how exactly to get it to that point. I admit I was one of those 70's dead on dead guys until I finally learned about tuning and using the reso to eat nasty sounding overtones.

[Funky Crêpe]

I would think that most drummers, well with the exception of ones playing really loud music, muffle their snare. With loud music, the snar can't be dampened imo, the craxk and what not is a plus. But i think that a little muffling of the snare gives it a nice pop. My favourite snare sounds are jojo and weckl....both muffle their snares. I think it depends on size aswell, find theres no need to dampen a 6.5" as much as a 5"....i like the low end pop

[dairyairman]

i was all about muffling everything until i started listening to some live recordings of my bands. everything on the live recordings sounded like cardboard! the latest recordings with no muffling definitely sound better to me, especially the snare and the toms.

i think if i were using mics on my drums i might still muffle. and i still believe that muffling in the recording studio can be good.

[Aeolian]

There are a few parallel points going on here.

Yes, beginners tend to over muffle their drums. They have often not learned to tune well and have not learned what the drums sound like in the overall mix. Sitting right on top of them, they probably sound far too ringy. Also, beginners often don't have good dynamic control and muffling can be a response to being told that they are playing too loud.

There there was the overreaction by recording engineers (which has spilled over to live sound "producers", opps I mean sound engineers) to close micing and the technology answer to kill the drum and then artificially recreate the sustain.

And then there is the appropriateness to the music. Which is largely a matter of density and precedence in the mix. A prog thing like ELP (Carl had fairly open sounding drums) would use them mixed in hotter than a pop song. So there was room for the open sustainy sound. The drums were an integral part of the melodic arrangement. On a pop song, a fill would be a rhythmic accent, often together in unison or counterpoint to several other things while burried in a dense mix. So they need to be drier in order to be distinct and fit in the mix.

In a trio setting where the sound is more open, large open toms have room to fit in the overall mix. But in a larger ensemble with more going on, I like the sound of smaller toms, usually tuned higher so that they have their own place. The alternative is to tune them lower but deaden the sustain so that you mostly hear the (higher pitched) attack.

[Pkaneps]

I have a pretty crappy kit, and muffling used to sound awesome. But as I played more and with people, I came to admire people who didn't muffle and knew how to tune. So I started experimenting with less and less muffling until I ended up with a bass drum with nothing in it, and some remo rings that I put on and take off depending on the mood.