Virgil Donati

[Adam]

In terms of being so far ahead of the race, I would definetly say that Virgil Donati is the Buddy Rich of the modern age. I know this is a bold statement, and I mean it in respects to Buddy Rich, but the thing is as time goes on the drummers are getting better and better and it's slightly niaeve to keep looking back at what HAPPENED when so many new innovations and techniques are happening NOW. That's not to say we shouldn't look back, and keep in mind this IS just my opinion, but I think someone like Virgil, who is the best example of dedication, is leagues beyond anyone else. Guys say he overplays, but I would almost PROMISE you that tons of guys said the same thing about Buddy, and we've even seen it with Weckl, and Coliauta in their time.

Now the question is who's the next Virgil Donati

And I would really rather not make this a huge flame war, and I'm pretty sure I came off too opinionated, so if this thread turns out to be a bad Idea it should probably be deleted.

[toteman2]

I'll put it this way...Out of everything I've ever been exposed to in drumming (and I've been exposed to alot, drumming is a huge part of my life), past and present Virgil Donati has amazed me the most...Has has everthing i would want in my drumming, a true Master of every phase of drumming...This is my OPINION, and in no way should this be taken as fact...The things he is doing never seemed possible before, and I've never heard so many proffesionals speak so high of one drummer...Quite simply THE MAN!

[Thinshells]

Donati: Not much swing/groove, technical, master of sight reading, highly disciplined/learned musician. Same can be said of Thomas Lang and Marco Minnemann.

Rich: Can't read, can swing, prodigy, self-taught

Similarities: Speed, almost total ambidexterity, mastery of instrument

There are some similarities.

[Sticktrick]

There is another thread for this already.

Buddy Rich could read. And it is an insultion for him to be compared to Donati. If you do that, you just don´t seem to know, what Buddy was all about: Feel

[finnhiggins]

I think a major difference is that I've never seen any video of Buddy playing something that's arguably just plain bad. About 50% of any given Donati video I've seen has seemed uncertain, not quite "cooked" yet, and often very mathematical. It kind of sounds like he's worked out a part on paper then learned to play it, but it's not quite something he's totally in control of yet - certainly not something he's making a musical choice about. The only time he seems truly comfortable is when he dives off into blazing chops, which he does with alarming regularity. Every time he comes back to one of his opposing meter grooves it just sounds forced - like he only learned the groove as an excuse to play the fills. Of the guys I've seen doing this stuff, I like his approach the least. Thomas Lang wipes the floor with him, and he's not really my cup of tea either.

I don't get why people think he has such great technique, too. He strikes me more as somebody who achieves results in spite of his hand technique than because of it, look at the way he kills the rebound on his toms strokes!

[Thinshells]

There is another thread for this already.

Buddy Rich could read. And it is an insultion for him to be compared to Donati. If you do that, you just don´t seem to know, what Buddy was all about: Feel

According to "Traps the drum wonder" By Mel Torme, and the Buddy Rich DVD I have, both say Buddy didn't read music. He played by ear.

[Mitzos]

buddy, my thinkin is that its just his style of playin, when hes playin his grooves hes probably deep in thought due to there complexity. so when he is able to get into his chops and soloing it requires less concentration and he feels more comfortable . as well thomas lang is a drumming genius. like virgil he amazes me. but ur rite he looks alot more comfortable playing his drums. (compared to virgil)

[NUTHA JASON]

i've said it before. comparing drummers is like comparing painters. it only really makes sense to compare contemporaries within broadly defined genres. virgil has indirectly or directly benefitted from the exsistence of buddy. as newton said: he has risen to new heights because he climbed on the shoulders of giants.

compare virgil to thomas lang.
compare buddy to gene krupa or ed shaugnessy.
that's fair.

as for the whole premise for this thread. i don't think there can be a single 'buddy rich' in our time. the feild is way to broad to make such a sweeping statement. aren't dennis, bozzio, lang, etc etc etc the buddy's of our time? i think guys like buddy and krupa were the first super star drummers. now there are literally hundereds.

j

[Sticktrick]

OK maybe your right about the reading. I thought as a big band drummer he had to read a lot, cause thats standard. Also I know the drummer of his band very well since I took lessons with him (Tony Insalaco - great guy and great drummer). He can read about anything at sight and said he learned that in buddys band. (you have to know that buddy was the leader of the band and didn´t play the drums himself on all tunes. he would usually have someone else play and only come up to solo). So maybe he could read, but he didn´t do it because he had such a good memory that he could easily remember all the hits.

Still my point that the comparison is an insultion (big time) is untouched by that.

[Thinshells]

OK maybe your right about the reading. I thought as a big band drummer he had to read a lot, cause thats standard. Also I know the drummer of his band very well since I took lessons with him (Tony Insalaco - great guy and great drummer). He can read about anything at sight and said he learned that in buddys band. (you have to know that buddy was the leader of the band and didn´t play the drums himself on all tunes. he would usually have someone else play and only come up to solo). So maybe he could read, but he didn´t do it because he had such a good memory that he could easily remember all the hits.

Still my point that the comparison is an insultion (big time) is untouched by that.

As far as I could tell from watching him and reading about him, he had a photographic memory for music and a incomperable feel. There are a few tunes that he really overdid it, burying the tune under too much drumwork. (IE Birdland)

But it's not an insult to compare them. As Nutha Jason pointed out, it's like comparing painters. Both masters of thier own genre. Claude Monet was no Rembrandt, and vice versa.

[Superlow]

I don't think there is much to compare in my opinion. Donati has no charisma as a person or as a drummer. I think more people can identitfy with Buddy because he was a showman. I feel that Buddy wasn't out to conquer the drums and play drum paterns at rediculous BPM and such. Buddy was interested at entertaining a crowd his entertainment was his instrument. He could entertain nondrummers. I find Virgil's appeal more to musicians . Also I find some of the music that Virgil plays is overproduced and out right boring. I can listen to big bands. I find it hard to listen to a bunch of virutosos noodling around personally. Yes they are good musicians but it seems they only make music that doesn't appeal to the masses.

[fkleiner]

nobody knows virgil donati (speaking of the people as a whole), and that's cuz he takes crazy ass, difficult, near impossible stunts that do not for the most part contribute to music (speaking of music as a whole).

buddy rich was heavily invovled in contributing to music, and it just so happens that his technical proficiency communicated rhythm and feel. when he played drums, he could lay back and have even a drummer's ear listen to other instruments. but when he started to swing, or just plain rip it up, you would see everyone's heads bobbing (and of course mouths dropping).

virgil is a breathtaking drummer that deserves a considerable amount of respect. you can say he's mastered the drums. but ultimately the only people who will enjoy him are the ones who are intrigued by technical proficiency, and those people most likely are technically proficient to some degree themselves.

i dunno, there's no right or wrong to this issue of comparison. my opinion is that buddy rich not only was a virtuoso but a great musician .

as for today's buddy rich? nobody grooves as uniquely and as heavily today as zach hill (of hella). he's probably in the same boat as virgil donati (b/c he will never become popular, the music is just too much for most people)... but his tecnicality is extremely and subtly connected to the music around him. he cannot read music, never took a lesson, is in his mid 20's, yet will amaze and entertain, as buddy rich did, any body who is there watching him.

of course as always everybody reading this will look over my ulterior motive (trying to introduce you all to a very new prodigy, unlike any other drummer), and shoot right to whether or not i'm gonna piss them off by my stance on this issue... just go off on a limb and check out someone who could very well change your whole perspective of the possibilities of drumming.

[Clark]

No way. I know this whole thing isn't fair but I have to respond. These drummers are VERY different. Donati plays COMPLEX patterns and does not play with the swing
of a Buddy Rich. Point blank: Buddy had more control, speed, fire, etc....
Nothing against Virgil but there is no comparison.

[Bonzo]

nobody knows virgil donati (speaking of the people as a whole), and that's cuz he takes crazy ass, difficult, near impossible stunts that do not for the most part contribute to music (speaking of music as a whole).

Good point. The problem is that most people and even alot of drummers don't know who Donati is. You have to make the kind of impact on the masses that Rich did to make a comparison like this. Clearly today, the most popular few guys to be considered the royalty are Gadd, Colaiuta, Weckl, Chambers....and none of them is anywhere near as well known as Buddy was. I really don't think one drummer stands out today like in the past. And maybe that's a good thing. It's just proving that drumming has come a long way and that there are thousands of excellent drummers today.

[Lambo]

No way. I know this whole thing isn't fair but I have to respond. These drummers are VERY different. Donati plays COMPLEX patterns and does not play with the swing
of a Buddy Rich. Point blank: Buddy had more control, speed, fire, etc....
Nothing against Virgil but there is no comparison. I would say Virgil could probably get up to BR's speed.....

[Superlow]

I would say Virgil could probably get up to BR's speed.....


No offense, but I don't think speed is the issue it's feel and showmanship, Feel being something that Virgil Lacks. I think that speed is something that can be mstered easier these days... look at the WFD competitions you got guys who you have never heard of scoring pretty high in the speed category. The drummers mentioned above have speed.

[jonescrusher]

Sorry to be off-topic a little, just wanted to thank fkleiner for recognising Zach Hill of Hella as one of the true virtuosos of our time - i totally agree that he shows shades of BR in bringing muscality and insane technicality together successfully.
To all Donati fans, check this guy out- it's truly another level.

[Adam]

I totally have to agree, I think Donati is the man, along with that drummer from Invein


hahahaha, you assclown

[Adam]

I think a major difference is that I've never seen any video of Buddy playing something that's arguably just plain bad. About 50% of any given Donati video I've seen has seemed uncertain, not quite "cooked" yet, and often very mathematical. It kind of sounds like he's worked out a part on paper then learned to play it, but it's not quite something he's totally in control of yet - certainly not something he's making a musical choice about. The only time he seems truly comfortable is when he dives off into blazing chops, which he does with alarming regularity. Every time he comes back to one of his opposing meter grooves it just sounds forced - like he only learned the groove as an excuse to play the fills. Of the guys I've seen doing this stuff, I like his approach the least. Thomas Lang wipes the floor with him, and he's not really my cup of tea either.

I don't get why people think he has such great technique, too. He strikes me more as somebody who achieves results in spite of his hand technique than because of it, look at the way he kills the rebound on his toms strokes!

I don't really believe you've ever actually heard virgil then. His hand technique is the best I think I've ever seen, and just look at how fast/controlled/PERFECT his rudiment playing is.

[toteman2]

Yeah...I somehow get the feeling that most people who are questioning Virgil's "feel" or "capacity to play in the pocket" just really are not familliar with the majority of his work...Feel and Time is one of my favorite things about him...

[finnhiggins]

I don't really believe you've ever actually heard virgil then. His hand technique is the best I think I've ever seen, and just look at how fast/controlled/PERFECT his rudiment playing is.

Why is it that you guys always fall back on this one? "Oh, you must not have heard him". Read my posting history. Do I look like I regularly launch into opinions on drummers without bothering to listen to them? I might not like a lot of choppy guys, but I've at least listened to a good cross-section of their output to come to that opinion. And every time one of you guys comes out with this and then posts a video or something to watch it does nothing but re-enforce my impressions of the guy.

Yes, I've listened to Virgil. I bought a Planet X album. I've watched probably about half of what is out there to buy in terms of video footage. And I really, really think he's quite poor beyond his amazing fast chops. His part selection just makes me want to cringe. Do me a favour, if you're a Donati fan can you please, please invest in a copy of Drumkit From Hell and spend about six months programming up every uber-technical polyrhythmic groove that you can imagine? It'll be educational on two fronts:

1) The programmed ones will have a similar feel to what you hear from Donati, but with a bit more consistency and confidence.
2) You'll discover that maybe 95% of the possible complex "intellectualised" multi-polyrhythmic prog grooves and ostinatos actually sound like crap when it comes to listening to them as music. They lack musical shape, any conception of tension and release just gets jumbled up in complex co-ordination. Latin ostinatos and soloing works not because it has fifty million independent syncopated parts going at once, but because there's some core rhythmic logic behind the construction of those grooves, not just "Hey, I wonder what five plus seven plus eleven would sound like....". Where's the tension and release in that, other than whatever chance throws your way in the interplay of pure numbers?

Now, that's not to say that the other 5% that works well isn't amazing to hear, but like anything else in music it's the exception rather than the rule if you just pick things at random. Grant Collins is quite good at picking parts, he just suffers from excessive chops syndrome a bit. Fredrik Thordendal does a good job with the stuff he programs for Thomas Haake in Meshuggah. But Virgil Donati's parts... they just sound amateurish to my ears, like the early experiments you make when you start playing with that material in a sequencer. I'll forgive Thomas Lang for some of his more unmusical stuff on his DVD because he promotes them as co-ordination exercises and plays quite differently from that when he's actually performing. But Virgil... no. Can't stand it.

Oh, and yes, he has very fast hands. I just don't think his actual physical technique is as pristine as you guys would like to make out, it's quite heavy and unweildy at times. As I mentioned before, watch his hands when he goes to the toms and see how low he kills the rebound. That's a helluva lot of lifting he's doing there, folks. He's just practiced it enough that he's got it fast.

[toteman2]

Finn, Remember these are your OPINIONS and not facts...As a suggestion I would go beyond planet X albums to explore Donati...For instance check out his work with CAB and the Virgil Donati Band...They are far far different than Planet X...

But Finn, i would like to say that stating something so profound as Donati's playing is "amature" maybe the highest point of arrogance I've ever experienced in the drum or music community...Seriously, i don't think you would say that to his face or in a room full of professional drummers...But you are entitled to your OPINIONS...You must be really really really really really good at drums...Any video or audio, you could share with us?

[theduke86]

Leaping to Finn's defense (not that he needs it...)
I don't believe Finn said his opinion was a fact.... However, it is an opinion that is among the most educated and well regarded around here, because he's a smart guy as well as a really good drummer!
Besides he didn't say Virgil's playing in general was "amateurish", just certain parts. He gives damn good reasons for why they are, and I tend to agree. Perhaps if you refuted one or two of his arguments with some reasonable arguments, we might be getting somewhere....

[finnhiggins]

But Finn, i would like to say that stating something so profound as Donati's playing is "amature" maybe the highest point of arrogance I've ever experienced in the drum or music community...Seriously, i don't think you would say that to his face or in a room full of professional drummers...But you are entitled to your OPINIONS...You must be really really really really really good at drums...Any video or audio, you could share with us?

Goody, now we get phase II: "Oh, then you can do better?". Do you guys have a procedure book you work out of? Every single thread like this goes exactly the same way.

Let's dig out the regular rote response: Read my post! No, of course I can't do better on a choppy level, why do you think that's him on the cover of MD and not me? That's maybe why I didn't say his *playing* was amateurish, as it's very obviously not. I don't like it very much, but it's certainly professional.

However, I do think his part selection is amateurish, particularly the grooves he uses in his soloing approach. If I sit down with a sequencer then it's relatively easy to come up with parts that sound like what Donati does - they're just not any good. They're bastard hard to play, but since when was that any measure of merit for a musical part?

If you take away the factor that makes Donati's achievements notable - the physical realm - and reduce his playing to notes in a sequencer then I fail to see what is good about it whatsoever. Can you explain to me why Donati's parts would be excellent if you programmed them instead of him playing them? That's what I mean about poor part selection. If it wouldn't be impressive as drum programming, why would a metronomic live performance suddenly make it that much better? If it would be impressive as programming work (where co-ordinational challenges don't apply, so we don't have to worry about how hard he's worked on that), I'm obviously missing it and need you to explain to me what's so profound about it.

As for the aforementioned room full of professionals, I can tell you for a fact that at least one of the people with a page of their own on Drummerworld refers to him as "Virgin Donati". I've hardly been that scathing. I won't name names though.

[toteman2]

Besides he didn't say Virgil's playing in general was "amateurish", just certain parts. He gives damn good reasons for why they are, and I tend to agree...

What were the good reasons describing why his playing is amature? I saw two things decscribing why he doesn't like his parts, but not expressing why they are amature...I don't think i ever stated Finn's opinions are not educated or well regaurded because i know he is a very knowledgable drummer, just very arrogant when it comes to drummers who show off chops and complexity...

[JohnMunsey]

Virgil is a phenomenal drummer - chops, speed, coordination, you name it.

But, if you're talking about who might resemble Buddy's playing today, I wouldn't say Virgil - I would say Art Verdi. If you saw his videos, he's one of the guys who looks like he's in fast foward motion - like Buddy looked. Intense hand/arm speed.

If you mean The Buddy of today as far as standing out and being far above drummers of today, it's possible. But I might add a few other drummers too. Good thread.

[fourstringdrums]

I don't think there is much to compare in my opinion. Donati has no charisma as a person or as a drummer.

+1 Buddy had feeling and emotion behind what he was playing. Virgil IMO, like alot of "chops" drummers today that I won't bother mentioning, is cold and emotionless. Its drummers like him that make me honestly appreciate a nice laid back groove, regardless of how simple. Chops is a good thing, but if you can't put something meaningful behind it, what's the point?

[toteman2]

Can you explain to me why Donati's parts would be excellent if you programmed them instead of him playing them? That's what I mean about poor part selection. If it wouldn't be impressive as drum programming, why would a metronomic live performance suddenly make it that much better? If it would be impressive as programming work (where co-ordinational challenges don't apply, so we don't have to worry about how hard he's worked on that), I'm obviously missing it and need you to explain to me what's so profound about it.


I'm really not sure what you're getting at here...I guess in a way you could argue any drummers parts would be excellent if programmed...I would much much rather have Virgil playing the parts...If it wasn't him playing it, it just wouldn't be the same in the slightest...He gives the notes life, power, musicality, dynamics, everything they need to make him sound the way he does, which to me is very distinct...You can't give a computer his feel, or anticipation of time and groove...

I mean would you want to hear this programmed instead of him playing it?
http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/highlights/highlights-vdband92304_02.wmv


He is adding so much color, flavor, and raw emotion to compliment the keyboardists solo, while keeping perfect time, something a computer could never capture...They just look like they are having so much fun, feeding off one another...True showcase of musicianship IMO...

[Thinshells]

The basis of this argument seems to be again, technical drumming vs "feel" and "groove"

And a lot of assumptions on the part of Donati. People are placing a cap, a limit if you will on his scope of abilities.

If you know Virgil personally, and have personally evaluated his groove and feel in person (outside of clinics) and maybe listened to something he did that was supposed to have the same "feel and "groove" of Buddy's material, then I'd buy some of the anti-Donati arguments.

But to say Virgil "can't" A. B. C. is to say you know him so well, that you can make that call. The only factual part of that argument against him is that you don't normally see him demonstrate that side of drumming.

The two camps here (Rich vs Donati) are polarized over technical vs swing drumming, and it seems like the anti-Donati crowd just don't like him, or the technical aspects no matter how you slice it.

But again, Stevie Vai, Planet x etc aren't exactly Funk or jazz...

[Smoky_McPot]

I think Virgil can put on a decent show, tell me whats so terrible about this clip
http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/g3soloend.wmv
I dont think a drum machine would do better, he puts on a show. All we have heard on this thread is hot air, Buddy vs Donati. Here is a piece of evidence that i think supports the argument that Donati is the Buddy of our time.

BTW I agree with Nutha that you cant really compare the two, but instead of all this crap talking heres something to watch.

[finnhiggins]

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here...I guess in a way you could argue any drummers parts would be excellent if programmed...


No, you couldn't. Programmed stuff sounds stiff and nasty unless you work on it very hard, but it tends to show up good parts from bad in a musical context very well. A good drummer can make an average part sound better, but a great drummer chooses a great part and then takes it even further with dynamics, subtle timing nuances etc. The obvious example here would be somebody like Steve Gadd.

My issue with Donati is that in his soloing he very frequently plays complex mixed-meter grooves. Those kind of things are potentially very interesting, but unless you're careful they can turn into a structureless mess. Add in the fact that the independent parts each have to make sense and you want to avoid flamming on unisons tends to force that kind of playing into very metronomic time. So for those parts, I ask the question - if it wasn't hard to do, would it be good? I don't think so. I'd rather hear something like Nat Townsley's stuff on Drummerworld, it's got groove as well as chops and it makes musical sense.


I mean would you want to hear this programmed instead of him playing it?
http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/highlights/highlights-vdband92304_02.wmv

He is adding so much color, flavor, and raw emotion to compliment the keyboardists solo, while keeping perfect time, something a computer could never capture...They just look like they are having so much fun, feeding off one another...True showcase of musicianship IMO...

That's a lot better. It's not my cup of tea for the same reason that I'm not a big Weckl fan, but I can respect that kind of playing in that it's actually got musical structure. But things like the solo performance somebody posted over in the other Virgil Donati thread... Urk. The problem is, much of the stuff he does seems to present that kind of approach to time playing in the solos. It was also all over the Planet X album I had. That really does make me question his musicality quite seriously, because if he was the consumate musician people seem to be claiming him as in this thread then surely he'd notice that... well... that stuff just aint that hot.

I'm not disputing his playing from a drummer's perspective, I'm doing it from the POV of somebody who has done a lot of drum programming and played seriously around with a lot of those concepts in sequencers. Some things work. Some things don't. Donati seems to use both approaches liberally and with no obvious understanding of which is which, as long as the part looks difficult. That's not my idea of musicality. Go check out some of Fredrik Thordendal's drum programming, particularly the new Meshuggah album. He's done a good job of solidifying a recognisable musical style in his approach to polyrhythmic/polymetric material. That stuff is cool regardless of whether he gets Thomas Haake to play it live or if they just run with the programmed parts on the album. I'm not sure Donati would be so well-loved if he just programmed his solos and released them as compositions, while I'm pretty sure that a lot of Max Roach's stuff ("The drum also waltzes", etc) would still pass muster because it has a comprehensible musical structure beyond just chops and amazing co-ordination.

Again - would Donati's solos be good if they weren't hard? Would they be better than, say, "let there be drums" - which is very easy, but has such unusual musical concepts as hooks, catchy phrases and song structure.

[finnhiggins]

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here...I guess in a way you could argue any drummers parts would be excellent if programmed...


No, you couldn't. Programmed stuff sounds stiff and nasty unless you work on it very hard, but it tends to show up good parts from bad in a musical context very well. A good drummer can make an average part sound a lot better, but a great drummer chooses a great part and then takes it even further with dynamics, subtle timing nuances etc. The obvious example here would be somebody like Steve Gadd.

My issue with Donati is that in his soloing he very frequently plays complex mixed-meter grooves. Those kind of things are potentially very interesting, but unless you're careful they can turn into a structureless mess. Add in the fact that the independent parts each have to make sense and you want to avoid flamming on unisons tends to force that kind of playing into very metronomic time. So for those parts, I ask the question - if it wasn't hard to do, would it be good? I don't think so. I'd rather hear something like Nat Townsley's stuff on Drummerworld, it's got groove as well as chops and it makes musical sense.


I mean would you want to hear this programmed instead of him playing it?
http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/highlights/highlights-vdband92304_02.wmv

He is adding so much color, flavor, and raw emotion to compliment the keyboardists solo, while keeping perfect time, something a computer could never capture...They just look like they are having so much fun, feeding off one another...True showcase of musicianship IMO...

That's a lot better. It's not my cup of tea for the same reason that I'm not a big Weckl fan, but I can respect that kind of playing in that it's actually got musical structure. But things like the solo performance somebody posted over in the other Virgil Donati thread... Urk. The problem is, much of the stuff he does seems to present that kind of approach to time playing in the solos. It was also all over the Planet X album I had. That really does make me question his musicality quite seriously, because if he was the consumate musician people seem to be claiming him as in this thread then surely he'd notice that... well... that stuff just aint that hot.

I'm not disputing his playing from a drummer's perspective, I'm doing it from the POV of somebody who has done a lot of drum programming and played seriously around with a lot of those concepts in sequencers. Some things work. Some things don't. Donati seems to use both approaches liberally and with no obvious understanding of which is which, as long as the part looks difficult. That's not my idea of musicality. Go check out some of Fredrik Thordendal's drum programming, particularly the new Meshuggah album. He's done a good job of solidifying a recognisable musical style in his approach to polyrhythmic/polymetric material. That stuff is cool regardless of whether he gets Thomas Haake to play it live or if they just run with the programmed parts on the album. I'm not sure Donati would be so well-loved if he just programmed his solos and released them as compositions, while I'm pretty sure that a lot of Max Roach's stuff ("The drum also waltzes", etc) would still pass muster because it has a comprehensible musical structure beyond just chops and amazing co-ordination.

Again - would Donati's solos be good if they weren't hard? Would they be better than, say, "let there be drums" - which is very easy, but has such unusual musical concepts as hooks, catchy phrases and song structure.

[NUTHA JASON]

great post finn.
i'm in agreement. i like simple musical solos with occasional flare rather than all flare solos with occasional musicality. one has only to look at the drum battle between weckl gadd and coulita on DW to see what i mean. weckl and coulita are flaring a lot... and then gadd comes in with a lovely groove (not simple, mind you) but in the context of what was comming before it is like a breath of fresh air.

the way i picture it, if you don't mind the spacial analogy, all the possible things that can be done on drums are like a vast flat plane. in the very center are the basic grooves like four-on-the-floor and clasical jazz riding. this is the green oasis. around these are ever more interesting but less used grooves, rudiments and figures. as we walk out of the oasis the trees of useful drumming ideas thin out into the grass and bush of the extraordinary and then into the wasteland of what is possible but not necessarily loveable. guys like virgil and bozzio are the explorers in the desert. they make tracks into the unknown and increase the realm of the oasis but they don't always find diamonds and water. it is nice to know that they are out there but better to watch them slogging in the sand from the cool of the trees. where they go others follow and plant but the further from the oasis the less likely that the harvest will grow healthy.

j

[Superlow]

Finn, Remember these are your OPINIONS and not facts...As a suggestion I would go beyond planet X albums to explore Donati...For instance check out his work with CAB and the Virgil Donati Band...They are far far different than Planet X...



I am sorry I have heard CAB and the VD band, it's nothing you can bob your head to... it's people over playing. Cheesey synth, a guitar player shredding, unnecessary drum soloing, they left that stuff in the 80's for a reason.

[Ash]

I can say I've seen quite a bit of old Virgil and his playing does nothing for me personally.To liken him to buddy is a bold statement! If you want drummers overplaying on really crap muso music,John Blackwell jr. is much more human/inspiring/exciting. As for crappy muso music,I tend to stick well clear of it! Give me Nirvana (easy drums),The smiths (easy drums) and The stone roses (easy-ish drums) any day of the week.

[toteman2]

I am sorry I have heard CAB and the VD band, it's nothing you can bob your head to... it's people over playing. Cheesey synth, a guitar player shredding, unnecessary drum soloing, they left that stuff in the 80's for a reason.


I guess I'm sorry, because I love that stuff...I like seeing musicians go nuts...IT moves me, and excites me...Now if you don't like that kind of stuff, then cool...But lots and lots and lots of people LOVE that stuff...It's an inspiration...While you may see this stuff as UNNECESSARY, thats just YOU...Others tend to totaly disagree...There is no right or wrong way of looking at it...All thats important is what makes YOU want to listen or watch...Alot of muscians prefer to challenge themselves and make things unpredictable and interesting...I don't think i would still be playing drums at the rate i do, if i didn't want to challenge myself, and maybe play things that some would call unesscessarty...And no, most songs by CAB or VD Band are not the usual tap your foot, easy listening, 4/4 time stuff...They try to offer somthing unusual, and complex...IMO, it's fantastic...

[toteman2]

. i like simple musical solos with occasional flare rather than all flare solos with occasional musicality.


See this just where we differ...When i go to see a drum solo or clinic, I want the dude to go completley NUTS, showing off chops, independence, power, dynmanics, flare, and showmanship...I don't want to see anything "simple", because i can entertain myself doing things simple...I like to be blown away by solos, it's just how i see things...When we get inside a song, that totally changes...

[finnhiggins]

See this just where we differ...When i go to see a drum solo or clinic, I want the dude to go completley NUTS, showing off chops, independence, power, dynmanics, flare, and showmanship...I don't want to see anything "simple", because i can entertain myself doing things simple...I like to be blown away by solos, it's just how i see things...When we get inside a song, that totally changes...

Question: How old are you? I ask because back when I was maybe eighteen, nineteen or so I used to think like this too. Drumming was still new, and I was exploring the world of virtuoso playing for the first time, etc etc. So each new amazing drummer I saw was pulling out these blazing chops, and I couldn't even imagine how you'd get to be able to play like that etc etc. Blew me away.

Flash forward a few years. Now when I see a solo like that it's a bit more like "double kick rudiments... check.... fast singles... check... oh look... a polyrhythm....". You see? After you see enough of that stuff it turns into a checklist and really stops being in any way exciting.

The way I see it, music is like a language. You try to express something through what you play, and if you're any good then the audience feels it. Now, imagine you're learning a new language - say you're not a native English speaker. Initially, if you see a book or article written by somebody and it uses lots of long words and complex sentences... you're impressed. You think... "Wow, this guy really knows all the grammar rules and he's got a huge vocabulary". Because all of that stuff looks so daunting and far away it makes you grant an automatic degree of respect and authority to what's being said. But once you get a better grasp of the language and reading becomes easier to you, you start to realise that simplicity is maybe a better way to get the message across. Look at George Orwell - the language is not that complicated, but it's amazingly good writing. Equally, there's many lousy writers like me - lots of long words, huge sentences, but actually not saying a whole lot for the amount they write. I can type real fast, but that's because it takes me ages to say something. I suspect George Orwell could have done this post in about three short sentences and said as much.

Imagine somebody making a speech. Are you more impressed by the guy who can talk so fast that you get a headache trying to keep up, or is the guy who speaks slowly, precisely and clearly for the same amount of time and gets the same amount said doing the better job as an orator? Sure, having precise ability to execute the physical movements to get the words out is important. But who cares if the content is just gibberish, being delivered with virtuosic speed and power?

So for me, I'm not automatically impressed by chops anymore. I work on them, but the more I work on them the more I realise that getting better on that front is just a matter of putting in more work. Once your hand technique is good enough you can make a whole lot of improvements while you're half asleep and not really paying attention - you just keep running the drills. I don't feel as proud of my technical achievements as I do of my musical ones, on the rare occasion that something cool turns up. For every fill I've done with big tom rolls, I'm usually more impressed on playback with the time I just did the same fill with one hi-hat accent and a syncopation in the bass drum. So my perception of soloing and virtuosic playing has changed accordingly as I've matured on the instrument. I'm hardly a good musician yet, but if I want to get there then the path from where I am now is probably not more technique, it's more understanding of structure, time and tone and how to build something communicative with that. In comparison to that, chops is really pretty easy to work on.

[theduke86]

Finn, I'm never going to post anything again, that was beautiful *tear*.
Seriously, that summed it all up very eloquently, and I happen to completely believe in what you're saying. I'm glad I'm in the right headspace now at 18 as compared to five years down the road. Now if only I can get my chops up....

[LDGuy]

And that, Finny, is why people are so in love with Gadd. He's got to be the grooviest white guy that ever touched the earth, and just cos his "chops" are not quite as up to standard as the next guy's, is, well, irrelevent. The guy's a genius...

And to stay on topic, i really dont have much to say to "compare" Virg and Buddy. Donati is one of my ABSOLUTE favourite drummers, without a doubt, and i must say i'm not the biggest Buddy fan, but they're just in different leagues. And anyway, i'm too in love with Vinnie (his playing!) to really diverge... lol

[toteman2]

I'm 25 and have been playing since 8...I remember when i was very young and uneducated and all that would really impress me would be real flashy fast stuff...Thats all totaly changed for me for years...I love EVERY aspect of drumming...I have deep love from Gadd, to Ringo, Glenn Velez, Tony Williams, Alex Acunna, Airto, Bonhman, on and on and on...I watched this video from Sean Rickman last month (who i had never heard of before) and he expressed how certain songs he wrote were not all about chops...The song he played freaking blew me away...It's not even like i have a FAVORITE drummer to say...I think there is just so many differnet sides of drumming to explore are like that i can't have a favorite...

With all that said, i still don't mind talking about Donati...In my experiences, and IMO he is as complete a drummer as you get...Like I've said he has everthing in his playing that i want from feel, to chops, to groove, to complete independence, to understanding of music, to total clarity of notes...He impresses me the most out of any drummer I've ever sceen...This is just how i see things...

[Adam]

great post finn.
i'm in agreement. i like simple musical solos with occasional flare rather than all flare solos with occasional musicality. one has only to look at the drum battle between weckl gadd and coulita on DW to see what i mean. weckl and coulita are flaring a lot... and then gadd comes in with a lovely groove (not simple, mind you) but in the context of what was comming before it is like a breath of fresh air.

the way i picture it, if you don't mind the spacial analogy, all the possible things that can be done on drums are like a vast flat plane. in the very center are the basic grooves like four-on-the-floor and clasical jazz riding. this is the green oasis. around these are ever more interesting but less used grooves, rudiments and figures. as we walk out of the oasis the trees of useful drumming ideas thin out into the grass and bush of the extraordinary and then into the wasteland of what is possible but not necessarily loveable. guys like virgil and bozzio are the explorers in the desert. they make tracks into the unknown and increase the realm of the oasis but they don't always find diamonds and water. it is nice to know that they are out there but better to watch them slogging in the sand from the cool of the trees. where they go others follow and plant but the further from the oasis the less likely that the harvest will grow healthy.

j


This was very well said...and need I remind everyone what this post was about (what is quoted here reminded me of my main point). I suppose you can't really look at Virgil the same as other guys. HE'S the guy trying something new, and pushing the envelope...NOT these "groove" players, and you have to understand that. One of my favorite things about Virgil himself is that he doesn't sound the same now as he did last year, or the year before that, etc etc

. I see a lot of guys bash Virgil Donati, and I mean a LOT...and i don't understand it! It almost sounds like an excuse to not have to practice, or take down those guys who do because "I'll never be as good as them technically, so I'll attack them artistically"...the guy has so much musicallity that is just over the top of the average persons head...but I find his drumming to be beautiful. I will admit that the clinic videos that have been circulating around lately with the independence adn stuff ARE quite boring (albeit impressive) but look at some of his old stuff like the MOntreal drum fest 97 stuff...it's like poetry on the drums. He almost looks like he's doing martial arts, and his body movements are SO expressive.

In ten years from now people will start to appreciate Virgil, just like all those old Weckl/Coliauta bashers appreciate them now because what they did back then is now a little more common among drummers...or at least understandable to most.

And on the topic about Virgil's technique...I've actually talked to a few professional drummers in my time about Virgil. One guy from Vancouver (gary grace) actually did a drum duo with him, and said that his technique is over the top (I don't remember the exact words, but I think "near perfect" was used), so whatever you want to say about Virgil's technique is up to you, but your opinion is miniscule to me compared with Gary's. And he doesn't get bounce on the toms? Go re-watch whatever video that gave you that impression...and the VOLUME and DYNAMICS...ok I really have to stop or else I'll go on forever

[finnhiggins]

This was very well said...and need I remind everyone what this post was about (what is quoted here reminded me of my main point). I suppose you can't really look at Virgil the same as other guys. HE'S the guy trying something new, and pushing the envelope...NOT these "groove" players, and you have to understand that. One of my favorite things about Virgil himself is that he doesn't sound the same now as he did last year, or the year before that, etc etc

. I see a lot of guys bash Virgil Donati, and I mean a LOT...and i don't understand it! It almost sounds like an excuse to not have to practice, or take down those guys who do because "I'll never be as good as them technically, so I'll attack them artistically"...the guy has so much musicallity that is just over the top of the average persons head...

There's a couple of quite arguable points in there. I don't think that Virgil is the one pushing the envelope, or rather - I don't think he's pushing the right envelope. To my ears, he is to the great, genre-defining drummers of the past (or even present) what a modern-day mountain climber is to somebody like Captain Cook. In one fairly small area he's managing to do a lot of extremely detailed exploration which must be quite rewarding both for him personally and for other people deeply immersed in the highly specialised area of, say, double kick technique. But when it comes to actually expanding the world of drumming in a useful way... he's not doing it for me.

I actually do think there are "groove players" out there who are expanding drumming much more than he is, I'd offer Matt Chamberlain as an example. He's taking everything that used to look like a threat to expressive drummers - loops, drum machines, studio-perfect timing and dynamics - and turning it into a weapon he can use to make himself even more awesome. Plus he has great chops, even if he's not a Donati-esque soloist. So no, I don't have to understand that the "Groove guys" are sitting still while Donati rages ahead into the future - I think you're wrong. From my perspective he's more of an Yngwie Malmsteen - popular for a while, but it'll fade once enough people realise that what he's doing just not really musically applicable in any style. Or at least, not applicable without turning the music itself into a house for virtuosic show-off playing that doesn't appeal to anybody other than a rapidly shrinking crowd of chop-heads, very few of whom are attractive or female.

I don't like his stuff. But seriously - it's not to do with his technique. I don't have anything much against Thomas Lang or Grant Collins, or indeed Vinnie Colaiuta, Buddy Rich, Nat Townsley or any others amoung the millions of drummers I can't keep up with in terms of chops. I just have a serious dislike of what he does as a musician, and that's been true since I first saw one of his videos back in the 1990s.

And hell yes, I'm envious - I would love to have his chops. But that doesn't discredit my points - I would also love to have Matt Chamberlain's chops, yet you don't see me up in arms about the guy. Ditto virtually any of the other guys with a page on Drummerworld. If you want to make an analogy to Vinnie, where's Donati's "Ten Summoner's Tales"? Or, indeed, his "Joe's Garage"?

[Clark]

They are TOTALLY different players.

__________________________________________________ __________

By the way, what's with "white" guy?
Nothing to do with drumming. white, red , black, green... just listen to the playing and don't worry about the color. That crap never ends. It should.

[Adam]

There's a couple of quite arguable points in there. I don't think that Virgil is the one pushing the envelope, or rather - I don't think he's pushing the right envelope. To my ears, he is to the great, genre-defining drummers of the past (or even present) what a modern-day mountain climber is to somebody like Captain Cook. In one fairly small area he's managing to do a lot of extremely detailed exploration which must be quite rewarding both for him personally and for other people deeply immersed in the highly specialised area of, say, double kick technique. But when it comes to actually expanding the world of drumming in a useful way... he's not doing it for me.

I actually do think there are "groove players" out there who are expanding drumming much more than he is, I'd offer Matt Chamberlain as an example. He's taking everything that used to look like a threat to expressive drummers - loops, drum machines, studio-perfect timing and dynamics - and turning it into a weapon he can use to make himself even more awesome. Plus he has great chops, even if he's not a Donati-esque soloist. So no, I don't have to understand that the "Groove guys" are sitting still while Donati rages ahead into the future - I think you're wrong. From my perspective he's more of an Yngwie Malmsteen - popular for a while, but it'll fade once enough people realise that what he's doing just not really musically applicable in any style. Or at least, not applicable without turning the music itself into a house for virtuosic show-off playing that doesn't appeal to anybody other than a rapidly shrinking crowd of chop-heads, very few of whom are attractive or female.

I don't like his stuff. But seriously - it's not to do with his technique. I don't have anything much against Thomas Lang or Grant Collins, or indeed Vinnie Colaiuta, Buddy Rich, Nat Townsley or any others amoung the millions of drummers I can't keep up with in terms of chops. I just have a serious dislike of what he does as a musician, and that's been true since I first saw one of his videos back in the 1990s.

And hell yes, I'm envious - I would love to have his chops. But that doesn't discredit my points - I would also love to have Matt Chamberlain's chops, yet you don't see me up in arms about the guy. Ditto virtually any of the other guys with a page on Drummerworld. If you want to make an analogy to Vinnie, where's Donati's "Ten Summoner's Tales"? Or, indeed, his "Joe's Garage"?

Actually, I'm glad to see a relavent and mature response to this. I do see a lot of your point, and even I haven't really SEEN virgil do anything TOO much outside of "his" personal style...I still think what I think, but thank you for a realistic response

[mediocrefunkybeat]

I like the Yngwie Malmsteen parallel you draw up there. I've recently begun to explore guitarists as musicians a bit (don't worry, I'm no good at the guitar, so I'm not going to stop playing as a result) and I got my hands on G3: Live at Denver. Of Satriani, Malmsteen and Vai I personally enjoyed Satch the most.

However, after over an hour of music I sat back and went over Malmsteen's performance in my head. I just realised how utterly over-the-top and unmusical it actually was. Technically brilliant, absolutely, and I can appreciate that. His neck speed is incredible (I would argue Satch has him in that department though) but there just seemed to be no musical end to his technical virtuosity.

That's how I feel when I hear say, Virgil. And don't get me wrong, I have utter respect for the guy, if I could play drums a fifth as well as him I'd be very happy with myself. However I find some of his playing unlistenable. Like Malmsteen. It's like I could sit back, listen and then afterwards say 'Wow; that was amazing, now when does the music begin?'

Personally I'd rather listen to an expressive guitarist who has technical flaws (alá Hendrix, it can be argued) than a technically perfect guitarist with no idea of musical context (alá Malmsteen) but the same is true. I have utter respect for the guy, even if sometimes he acts like an idiot...

Not meaning to rub anyone up the wrong way, just my biased and bigoted opinion as usual.

[CarterB_Junkie]

Just to add something in the debate could Virgil has his Ten SUmmoner's Tale in the current music scene ?

Which artist would be able to use Virgil ( or any other monster chop drummer) in a technical and musical way as Sting and Zappa did with Colaiuta or Corea and Paul Simon with Gadd ???

The thing that saddens me in the current pop rock music scene is that nobody has musical ambitions regarding drumming especially !
Thomas Lang has played with a Spice Girl but in this context can he creates a memorable drum part or groove : difficult I would say !
That's why I cherish the Dave Matthews Band because it is basically rock played by Jazz musicians and Dave lets his musicians express themselves especially live, have you seen Carter Beauford in a live context, the guy totally ripps without forgetting the groove (people are dancing DURING his solos goddammit, can Virgil do this ????).
That's why Sting's first albums with Omar Hakim, Manu Katché and Vinnie Colaiuta were amazing because it was a real musical collaboration between Sting and its drummers.
In DMB, Carter creates amazing grooves and parts that are always musical and sometimes quite technical, the guy is for me the perfect balance between groove and over the top playing !

Maybe I am mistaking but what pop rock album in the last 5 years featured a real good drummming performance ( maybe Abe Laboriel Jr with Vanessa Carlton but it wasn't Sting's caliber anyway )

Virgil Donati with Soul Sirkus had very mundane rock beats not particularely creative or original but it was still good.
I ve felt anything in listening Virgil parts except the OMG did he really do that ???
I agree that Vinnie 's performance in Ten Summoner's tale is one fo the most musical, tasteful, subtely technical I know ! He lays down the groove so beautifully on this one !
He uses his incredible chops in the most musical way, I am still waiting for Virgil to do the exact same thing but he's capable I am sure .

[lowender]

what a post!
to offer up my two penneth I'd just like to say, firstly of all this technical s**** for technical s****** sake who do you know that listens (with love and regularity) to say steve vai who isn't a guitar player? same goes for any of these techno psycho's (on any other instrument).
For c****** sake when will people as a whole see that music is music (and in my mind one of the single most important things we have as a species) the great universal language! and technique is simply a way (or part there of) of being able to create this fantastic art form.
I for a start can't play a lot of great grooves (john bonham springs immediately to mind for now and copeland and mitch too) currently as in my 12 months of playing I haven't yet gathered all the technique required for playing them.
I am however proficient on the guitar and bass so I do consider myself able to stand up and voice my opinion on this technique/musicality matter.
During my practice of guitar I favour hendrix over vai for example. with the bass george porter jnr. (the meters) over bill the buddha dickens, just 2 examples.
there are some players who have great technique and their music is fantastic, there are others who have terrible technique but who are/were phenomenally musical.
its a means to an end surely although sometimes can very easily be bypassed but still get great results (curt cobain, stevie wonder(drumwise), john frusicante for example all of which great musicians but not necessarily great technicians).
if any of you crowd are happy in your little worlds of blazing chops with your cd collections full of speed techno and pictures of ugly and pasty people on your walls then all the power in the world to you. HOWEVER don't you dare call it music.
There's a reason my missus/my dad/the bloke up the road would not listen to a virgil donati cd. a yngwie malmsteen cd etc.
It's because musically it is s***.
I'm not saying you can't enjoy it for whatever it is, of course you can its a free world and long be it, but don't come on here w******* off that just because somebody can play at 12 zillion beats per minutes for some reason justifies them an entry into the grandest musical echelons.
If you want to play musical, be musical. technique is only the taxi ride to the airport, there's still a lot miles to travel before you get to where you want to be if being a musicians where its at.
I know from my current novice state on the drums that all I'm interested in is laying it down and being able to play the right thing at the right time. If a piece of music calls for a ludicrously fast roll across the drumkit then fair do's I need to learn that but the most important thing is making people playing around me and listening in the audience think "jesus this feels good!".
james brown did it, steve jordan does it, the beatles did it, the list goes on. suffice it to say though that music is the most important thing in music, or have we forgotten that?
finally, in my personal opinion Virgil Donati is the Virgil Donati of HIS time, Buddy Rich is the drumming genius of OUR time.

[sound zap]

If you compare one Modern day drummer to the likes of Buddy Rich I would have to say Dennis Chambers is the man

[Aidan]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion BUT!! at least make comments that are backed up woth SOME truth and logic. The narrowminded thinking at times is baffling to me. First off Virg is like Malmsteen, really? how many different Cats from different genre's of music has and is Malmsteen playing with? Maybe that is why Virg is knocking them dead down at the Potato playing with the likes of Mitch Forman, Philpot, Gary Meeks, Wiengart, Brunel,
MaCalpine, Dean Taba, the list goes on and on. The guy plays with the cream of the crop in the Jazz-fusion world on a regular basis in half a dozen different setting's. He then can go on tour and Rock the House with the likes of Neal Schon and Marco Mendoza then he can go and record with Allan Holdsworth on one album Bunny Brunel on another and with member's of Toto on yet another and can lay down a few tracks for a movie soundtrack in his spare time and why not throw in a clinic in front of 500 people.

Yeah that sound's like Malmsteen to Me, good grief the lack of knowledge some people have. And then he can make guy's like Vinnie Colaiuta and Dave Weckl cream their pants during a clinic, how do I know I have been there and seen it. It is quite funny because guy's like Vinnie and Weckl and Simon Phillip's and Dennis Chamber's, Steve Smith were RAVING!! about this guy and praising him openly back in the early nineties when he was still in Australia recording HIT! pop, rock and R&B records. Yeah that is right that is what he did years ago. The guy was part of some of the biggest touring acts and records in Aussie land, been there and done it.

Some people see him in his Ultra-Extreme solo mode and they make quick snap judgements without knowing the truth at all concerning an artists true musical history. Keep the opinion's to the distinct example and stay away form vague uninformed generalizations. Like I said you can like or not like the extreme drumming or a certain genre of music or a style of playing but to say that is what he or another is limited to or THAT! expression of drumming is not musical or relevant when it is to MANY is simply subjective boloney. One man's cup of tea is another man's poison. We can talk about good and bad technique all day long but what is musical is to the ear and eye of the Beholder. Guess what, some guy's like Virg play what they play because it is what they WANT! to do, yes that is right it is a conscious choice, he is not forced to do it. The Man is driven to do what has not been done, like it or not it is HIS choice. I do not think he is losing sleep becasue he has not played with Sting and done the follow up to Ten Summoner's Tales, as if that makes him relevant in the music world. Like I said I think the deep respect and admiration from his peers matter's more.

And yeah I am sure Virg will just fade away real quick, since he has had the respect and admiration of the greatest musicians in the world for almost twenty years and has been in about every type of musical situation for over twenty years and his popularity just keep's on growing. Yeah sounds like he is near being irrelevant anytime soon. He is not just at the forefront of breaking down drumming's barriers technically and creatively he has been THERE! where many would love to be and has done it already in about every musical context possible.

[toteman2]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion BUT!! at least make comments that are backed up woth SOME truth and logic. The narrowminded thinking at times is baffling to me. First off Virg is like Malmsteen, really? how many different Cats from different genre's of music has and is Malmsteen playing with? Maybe that is why Virg is knocking them dead down at the Potato playing with the likes of Mitch Forman, Philpot, Gary Meeks, Wiengart, Brunel,
MaCalpine, Dean Taba, the list goes on and on. The guy plays with the cream of the crop in the Jazz-fusion world on a regular basis in half a dozen different setting's. He then can go on tour and Rock the House with the likes of Neal Schon and Marco Mendoza then he can go and record with Allan Holdsworth on one album Bunny Brunel on another and with member's of Toto on yet another and can lay down a few tracks for a movie soundtrack in his spare time and why not throw in a clinic in front of 500 people.

Yeah that sound's like Malmsteen to Me, good grief the lack of knowledge some people have. And then he can make guy's like Vinnie Colaiuta and Dave Weckl cream their pants during a clinic, how do I know I have been there and seen it. It is quite funny because guy's like Vinnie and Weckl and Simon Phillip's and Dennis Chamber's, Steve Smith were RAVING!! about this guy and praising him openly back in the early nineties when he was still in Australia recording HIT! pop, rock and R&B records. Yeah that is right that is what he did years ago. The guy was part of some of the biggest touring acts and records in Aussie land, been there and done it.

Some people see him in his Ultra-Extreme solo mode and they make quick snap judgements without knowing the truth at all concerning an artists true musical history. Keep the opinion's to the distinct example and stay away form vague uninformed generalizations. Like I said you can like or not like the extreme drumming or a certain genre of music or a style of playing but to say that is what he or another is limited to or THAT! expression of drumming is not musical or relevant when it is to MANY is simply subjective boloney. One man's cup of tea is another man's poison. We can talk about good and bad technique all day long but what is musical is to the ear and eye of the Beholder. Guess what, some guy's like Virg play what they play because it is what they WANT! to do, yes that is right it is a conscious choice, he is not forced to do it. The Man is driven to do what has not been done, like it or not it is HIS choice. I do not think he is losing sleep becasue he has not played with Sting and done the follow up to Ten Summoner's Tales, as if that makes him relevant in the music world. Like I said I think the deep respect and admiration from his peers matter's more.

And yeah I am sure Virg will just fade away real quick, since he has had the respect and admiration of the greatest musicians in the world for almost twenty years and has been in about every type of musical situation for over twenty years and his popularity just keep's on growing. Yeah sounds like he is near being irrelevant anytime soon. He is not just at the forefront of breaking down drumming's barriers technically and creatively he has been THERE! where many would love to be and has done it already in about every musical context possible.


Yeah but he doesn't play in 4/4 enough, and he uses alot of metric modulation and plays alot of notes so he has no feel or groove...LOL...

AMEN dude....you should've came around a while ago so i didn't waiste so much time banging my head agaist the wall...Virgil is da Man...

[Funkifized]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion BUT!! at least make comments that are backed up woth SOME truth and logic. The narrowminded thinking at times is baffling to me. First off Virg is like Malmsteen, really? how many different Cats from different genre's of music has and is Malmsteen playing with? Maybe that is why Virg is knocking them dead down at the Potato playing with the likes of Mitch Forman, Philpot, Gary Meeks, Wiengart, Brunel,
MaCalpine, Dean Taba, the list goes on and on. The guy plays with the cream of the crop in the Jazz-fusion world on a regular basis in half a dozen different setting's. He then can go on tour and Rock the House with the likes of Neal Schon and Marco Mendoza then he can go and record with Allan Holdsworth on one album Bunny Brunel on another and with member's of Toto on yet another and can lay down a few tracks for a movie soundtrack in his spare time and why not throw in a clinic in front of 500 people.

Yeah that sound's like Malmsteen to Me, good grief the lack of knowledge some people have. And then he can make guy's like Vinnie Colaiuta and Dave Weckl cream their pants during a clinic, how do I know I have been there and seen it. It is quite funny because guy's like Vinnie and Weckl and Simon Phillip's and Dennis Chamber's, Steve Smith were RAVING!! about this guy and praising him openly back in the early nineties when he was still in Australia recording HIT! pop, rock and R&B records. Yeah that is right that is what he did years ago. The guy was part of some of the biggest touring acts and records in Aussie land, been there and done it.

Some people see him in his Ultra-Extreme solo mode and they make quick snap judgements without knowing the truth at all concerning an artists true musical history. Keep the opinion's to the distinct example and stay away form vague uninformed generalizations. Like I said you can like or not like the extreme drumming or a certain genre of music or a style of playing but to say that is what he or another is limited to or THAT! expression of drumming is not musical or relevant when it is to MANY is simply subjective boloney. One man's cup of tea is another man's poison. We can talk about good and bad technique all day long but what is musical is to the ear and eye of the Beholder. Guess what, some guy's like Virg play what they play because it is what they WANT! to do, yes that is right it is a conscious choice, he is not forced to do it. The Man is driven to do what has not been done, like it or not it is HIS choice. I do not think he is losing sleep becasue he has not played with Sting and done the follow up to Ten Summoner's Tales, as if that makes him relevant in the music world. Like I said I think the deep respect and admiration from his peers matter's more.

And yeah I am sure Virg will just fade away real quick, since he has had the respect and admiration of the greatest musicians in the world for almost twenty years and has been in about every type of musical situation for over twenty years and his popularity just keep's on growing. Yeah sounds like he is near being irrelevant anytime soon. He is not just at the forefront of breaking down drumming's barriers technically and creatively he has been THERE! where many would love to be and has done it already in about every musical context possible.
Amen to that as well. Some people should just get over it already... musicality is subjective. I find it musical and I understand, while some people can't. Simple as that. I've learned to accept it. All I wanna do, is enjoy what other drummers have to offer instead of bringing them down with my half-assed 'opinions'.

[the rich]

My two favourite drummers are...

Virgil Donati
John Stanier

One for unbelievable "chops" and sheer technical ability and the other for aggressive and memorable, yet relatively simple, drum tracks.

Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

For old time's sake I popped on Planet X - Moonbabies and although the music itself is horrid IMO, the drumming is sensational, and that is the reason I bought it, it gave me alot of inspiration which coupled with the inspiration from other drummers, coming from a different place is no bad thing!

Who says Virgil can't groove? He most certainly can, just check out track 9's intro (Midnight Bell) on this album, he just prefers to blow your mind!

[PdoubleE]

Hey Guys im new to drummerworld.. and its by far the best forum yet. Virgil Donati is surley an incredible player, but i totaly understand how you think hes all showy chops. There is two types of musicians in my book ones that have the gift and can play great from day one... and the one who cant really play at first, but have a passion to play and learns everything he can to become great. The people with the natural gift have the ability to groove. there just naturals at it. The people who strive to become great didnt have that ability to groove at first and were taught by the book. I believe, from what i have seen and heard, that self taught "naturals" just have more of a feel for music and there is soo much more emotion behind it.
People who were taught by the book just sound like they are playing by the book without the emotion in it. Yeah they are incredible by theory standards but they just dont have the same feel. I know there is exceptions but for the most part this is what i have noticed. just my 2 cents for ya

[Aidan]

Well I would say that some people are more naturally gifted with great technique and being able to perform very complex pieces and some are more naturally gifted with feel and a great ear and some have both of it.

[toteman2]

GazzaScotland hurt my ears with that statement ha ha
Do most drummers put Virgil in Buddy Rich's rank guys?


Remember the original comparrison was not in "styles" of playing but the comparrison drawn was "how far they are ahead of eveyonelse"...Back in the day Buddy was considered by many to be the most advanced drummer in the world...By todays standards alot considerd Virgil to be the most advanced drummer in the world...

[0neyellowdrum]

If I could ask just one question to those who consider... drummers have groove or drummers have chops... it would be: Why does it have to be either or ?
I think this thread has shown that opinions about what groove is and who has it is as varied as there are listeners of it. Same with chops. It appears no one here is debating whether Virgil has or doesn't have chops....no posts I have read have disputed his chops only the degree of chops compared to other drummers. What is disputed is his ability to groove. Does he have groove, how much or how little groove, not as much groove as (insert drummer name here) , he can groove but not with the style of music he chooses to play, etc.
I remember a time in my past when it was rare to find musicians who played jazz who could also play rock and vicy versy. Hard to find classical musicians who could play jazz but not vicy versy. Try finding a classical violinist who can play fiddle in a bluegrass band. It is not impossible it is just rare. What is not rare today is drummers, lots of incredible drummers, who play with incredible chops and groove. They can play the sh*t out of any type of music. Buddy Rich never put himself in a position to play Hard Rock and I have my doubts whether he could have pulled if off if he had. Nor did Louie. But drummers of today can and do. Is Virgil one? Yes I think so.

[Aidan]

Music is so ridiculously subjective it is waste of time saying if one play's fewer notes then that is musical, it is absurd. Not that one who play's faster is more adapt at being musical. But please can we get away from the worn out and tired cliche's of oh that guy groove's so hard because he play's fewer notes therefore he is musical, what a load of you know what. No one even really know's what Groove is. You get 10,000 diffeent point's of view. IMO and only my opinion something groove's whether it be the drum parts or the guitar, bass etc. if it FIT'S with the overlall vision of the tune if it is blending and complementing the rest of the band. If the song call's for complexity of rhythm and many notes and precision than so be it if the tune call's for simplicity than great but neither one groove's more than the other. I sure do not want to hear a half time shuffle when a song calls for an outrageous double bass ostinato with some fancy handwork over the top. Nor do I want to hear the opposite. I understand that trait's such as taste, touch, and creativity affect groove and musicality but it is still very subjective.

We can debate proper and improper technique and what is real technical prowess all day long with more productiveness. But debating what is musical and what groove's is very much in the air. We all simply like what we like. What is rubbish to one is beauty to another. We all internally connect to what suit's our desire's and taste's. And just to reiterate the main point of this thread Virgil can perform convincingly in most styles of music with equal proficiency when and if he feels like but I sure do not think he is losing any sleep over what we think, he is too busy being GREAT!

[NUTHA JASON]

agreed.
while i sit here i popped on Steve Gadd up close DVD. and saw there was a bonus footage section that showed virgil. and i say this...anyone who thinks the man is incapable of anything as simple as grooving is a fool. its just that what he does is sometimes somewhere on the other side of groove. when needed the man can groove...its ludicrous to believe anything else.
j

[Thinshells]

agreed.
while i sit here i popped on Steve Gadd up close DVD. and saw there was a bonus footage section that showed virgil. and i say this...anyone who thinks the man is incapable of anything as simple as grooving is a fool. its just that what he does is sometimes somewhere on the other side of groove. when needed the man can groove...its ludicrous to believe anything else.
j

You have just slaughtered the inane arguments against Virgil that he can't groove. I still say, that people who slam professional drummers do so out of envy for thier ability, and personal insecurity. I just lack respect for those who make it a point to denegrate great drummers.

[Womble]

Alex Duthart.

Thinshells - If it were true that I and others only choose to denigrate drummers because we are envious of their ability, and/or have personal insecurities, then it follows we would do the same for all massively successful and influential drummers, no? Virgil is well-known in the drumming community, but is not, as we have seen, respected by all. Drummers like Vinnie, Gadd, and Porcaro are or were massively respected by nearly everone who plays drums, and have contributed so much to popular music that their fame extends well beyond the drumming family. So why don't I have bad things to say about these guys? Why don't I come on here and try to convince people the Gadd can't groove? Hmmm, I wonder....

I AM envious of Vinnie, and I AM envious of Gadd, but I do not slag them off. I don't have much time for Virgil, I don't have much respect for him, and so I will say negative things about his playing. Doesn't that make more sense than your position?

The arguments that Virgil can't groove are far from inane. People who say he can't groove are not fools. I painstakingly explained my position in a previous post which now I can't see....maybe it was in the Thomas Lang thread instead. When someone assures me he can groove, I can only assume their ear is not as sensitive as mine. I don't want this to become personal, but if I am going to be called a fool for my position, I think it's fair to defend myself.

I fail to see how J expressing his belief that Virgil can groove 'slaughters' anyone's argument to the contrary. And this tired old line of 'He can groove, he just plays stuff you can't understand' is really getting annoying. Finn has argued against this previously. It is actually the knowledgeable people who do understand the crazy stuff he plays that aren't wowed into declaring him a genius, because we can see through it. I saw Virgil playing in the Baked Potato, attempting to groove at a medium 4/4 tempo. It sounded HORRIBLE.

[Bernhard]

Ok Ok Ok
Not very long long long time ago in a hour of really depression I deleted a whole Virgil Donati and a Thomas Lang thread here in the Forum (Rude Founder Power!!!!)

There are so many different animals in nature, so why comparing bears with tigers or cats with dog? Why not taking from every drummer what you like and going down to the practice room and improve a little?

Take it as fact:

- Virgil can groove like hell!!! Yes, of course - haaaa (more than 99.9% of us all)
- Steve Gadd can play anything - also Planet X stuff - haaaa haaa - of course!!!!
- Thomas Lang can also play anything - of course!!!!!
- of course all three deserve their place at Drummerworld - haa

So what?

I had the rare chance to hang out with exactly those three and some more at PASIC. Steve attended the Virgil Clinic and was blown away, Virgil attended the Steve Gadd clinic and was blown away too. Thomas did'nt play, but was blown away too.

And all three were blown away by TERREON GULLY!!!!! Watch this guy!!

Bernhard

[jamndrummer]

So what?

I had the rare chance to hang out with exactly those three and some more at PASIC. Steve attended the Virgil Clinic and was blown away, Virgil attended the Steve Gadd clinic and was blown away too. Thomas did'nt play, but was blown away too.

And all three were blown away by TERREON GULLY!!!!! Watch this guy!!

Bernhard

NOW THIS is what Im talking about.....you CAN learn something from EVERYONE.....Just keep open....good post Bern

[finnhiggins]

There are so many different animals in nature, so why comparing bears with tigers or cats with dog?

Just for the record:

Tigers are cooler than bears.
Bears are tougher than dogs.
Dogs smell worse than cats.

This is not an opinion. This is a mathematically proven FACT!

(Sorry, went all L. Ron for a minute there..)

[toteman2]

I think my position on Virgil's groove ability is well known so I won't even get into it...As far as the respect for Virgil in the drumming communtiy? The only dis-respect I've sceen of him comes from a handfull of people who comment on message boards, and thats pretty much it...I find it very awkward, that one of the most well know clinicians and studio drummers in world (who supposedly can't groove) would show up at clinics worldwide and explain the "developement of groove", and then demonstrate it to standing ovations...

[Aidan]

Thank's Bernhard for that much needed insight. The fact is some people think that their opinion about what is musical and what groove's is ABSOLUTE! I would like to know when did they get together and decide that their opinion is THE TRUTH! When will some people wake up and figure out that they made up their mind's about what suit's them long ago and anything that does not follow suit is not up to par for them. What absolute arrogance and worse off flat out foolishness. I will say it again it is SOME of those who sit at home and wish they were actually making a REAL mark in the drumming and music world and want to be admired by those relevant that make the outrageous comment's about someone not being able to groove or play music. But it is guy's like Virg, Vinnie, Gadd, Minneman, Smith, Lang, Weckl, Bozzio, Phillip's the list goes on and on who all have tremendous admiration for one another and are actually telling the truth when they give Praise to one another. I myself have been in company of Vinnie, Smith, Horacio, Bozzio, Mangini and other's while watching Virg and have gotten a kick out of them being truly blown away by the Man's playing. And then watching Virg, Smith and Mangini hang while being truly moved by Vinnie's performance. Their humility and respect for eachother is truly moving.

Again for those who have a hard time accepting the truth. Virg is admired, respected and held in HIGH regard(and has been for years) by those who truly have left a lasting and positive mark in the drumming world.

[Waugh]

For all lovers of guitars, of a mélange of styles, and of Music, don't miss the International Guitar Festival of Nérac, in south-west France, February 24-26, 2006.

The lineup :

- CAB BAND : Bunny Brunel, Tony MacAlpine, Virgil Donati and Steve Weingart

- Natural High Trio : Frank Gambale, Alain Caron and Otmaro Ruiz

- Ferenc Snétberger and Markus Stockhausen

- Nabil Khalidi, Thierry Colson and Khalid Kouhen

- Forestare


An outstanding lineup in more ways than one, if only because of the European debut of the all-star band CAB BAND. The festival will welcome legendary musicians such as Virgil Donati, Bunny Brunel and Tony MacAlpine, as well as Frank Gambale and Alain Caron.

Do not miss the master classes, a stringed instruments and equipment exposition, and free fringe events, among other delights.

For information and reservations: www.festivalguitar.com

[jonny]

sweet! CAB playing on this side of the Atlantic. i'm in london but am seriously considering getting to France for this.

is there a website for the festival?

and if Virgil can't groove, then why did he replace Dennis (universally considered to have one of the deepest pockets in the world) in CAB? i think his playing is brilliant with CAB.

I don't think everyone realises what Virgil is doing in his clinics. clinics are aimed at drummers. it's not necessarily a performance based purely on musically. clinics are about the sharing of technical knowledge, and playing tips, and in virgil's clinics he's displaying his technique and talent. I don't think there's anything wrong with this, as it's not your average concert. they are like one big drum lesson.

and i wish people would lay off Virgil. The impression I get is that he gets all the stick for his technical playing, whereas other players in his genre (mangini, lang, minnemann etc) get let off the hook. why is there so much negative feeling towards him? it's almost seems like some people want to punish him for exploring the boundaries of the instrument, and discovering what can be done with four limbs.

[jonny]

sorry. got so excited there i missed the link in your post! cheers for the info

[Waugh]

You're welcome ! 'Hope you'll come ! ;)

[Aidan]

Jonny you brought up a great point about yeah he does get alot of crap thrown his way for being to extreme and over the top as compared to the other's(fact is he has established the genre of extreme drumming more than any other drummer by far) but I can guarantee this, he is playing with a more diverse group of musicians in more diverse musical setting's than any of the other guy's mentioned BY FAR! And the honest truth is that his playing is more diverse than MOST drummer's who are fairly well known or very well known. And the guy's who rip on him WISH! yeah that is right they wish they could play with 1/10 of the guy's that Virg plays with on a regular basis. Talk is cheap. Virg does not have to talk and does not waste his time talking trash about other drummer's and musicians he is too busy tearing it up with the greatest musicians in the world.

[Perky]

I think Virgil Donati plays doubles with his feet better than anyone

Check him out on the MD Festival 1997

[Aidan]

For Virgil fans, this is a short clip of Virgil soloing during his band's performance at NAMM. Virgil was playing with Mitch Forman, Rufus Philpot and Tony Macalpine. There will be much lengthier clips of the bands performance featured at the Pearl site in the very near future.


http://www.youtube.com/?v=Eq-wpsbwv_w

[baddrumming]

Im not easily impressed these days but that was just ridiculous. INSANE! Never seen anything like it and i have seen them all you name them LANG MINNEMANN RABB BOZZIO ERLANDSON etc. SO much energy, so physical, so creative so.....RIDICULOUS is the only word for it!

[NouveauCliche]

Yowza. Virgil's got some chops for sure!! Those high rack toms make for a super cool visual, thanks for posting this man!

There's two comments that kill me that someone near the camerman says. "He has his eyes closed!" and "Sweeping on drums!". Good times. ;-)

If you want to see Virgil REALLY tear it up, buy Steve Vai's "Live At Astoria"...he does this freaking INSANE solo....towards the end he does this thing where he's spinning stick and hitting cymbals and playing a jungle-esque tom beat...probably the coolest visual thing I've ever seen in a drum solo.

[toteman2]

Thanks for posting that new clip. Always great to see new Donati footage. Words can never describe his playing, and man those drums sounded thunderous. Anyone get to witness this performance first hand?

[Tex12]

http://www.pearldrum.com/wnamm-vid-virgil.htm

[Anduin]

The sound quality is so bad it's almost unwatchable. And the poor guy looks like he's in a cage!

[Adam]

The sound quality is so bad it's almost unwatchable. And the poor guy looks like he's in a cage!

There almost seems to be some kind of netagivity about Virgil on this board. The sound quality is fine to me

[Stu_Strib]

Yes that audio is way over-compressed.. Horrible. But then again, what drum websites actually have well designed and cutting edge web design?

As for the negativity, I used to see it on other threads. Here, I guess its just a matter of taste? I have only seen what few clips are on here to judge. Based on that one, he's obviously skilled. Maybe it's those toms way up in the air that put people in defense mode (kinda gimmicky, don't you think?).

That polyrhythm stuff he does near the 1/3rd mark of the vid is cool (with the constant bass drum pattern, then he changes his hand patterns to demonstrate the different polyrhythmic feels possible).

[burnthehero]

I can only take Virgil Donati in small doses. He's an incredible drummer, no doubt, but his playing bores me pretty quickly. He's a little too non-musical for me.

[Stu_Strib]

I can only take Virgil Donati in small doses. He's an incredible drummer, no doubt, but his playing bores me pretty quickly. He's a little too non-musical for me.

Yeah that was a pretty monotonous solo after awhile.

[toteman2]

That one is from the 2005 NAMM show in the Pearl Booth.

This one http://www.youtube.com/w/virgil-donati-drum-solo?v=Eq-wpsbwv_w&search=virgil%20donati

It's a short clip from NAMM 2006. The sound quality is not that great, but still very much worth watching. Sky-Toms in full effect for the crowd at the show. While I agree they can be a bit "gimmicky", he finds very creative ways to use them.

For those not into the solo aspect of drumming, he does lead the band in with a nice groove to end.

[Aidan]

He is not musical enough, I mean he is not musical the way I LIKE IT! Does he not know that there is only one way too express one's musicality? I wish he would tone it down a bit. And his technique is too pristine. Wish he was a little sloppier and less fluid. His chops are too blistering and over the top wish his playing wish they were a little more pedestrian. His independence is too advanced and complex wish he was more elementary and unoriginal. His feet are too stinking developed, COME ON! Message too Virgil, you are too good can you please suck a little more so we can feel better about ourselves. We wish we were 1/10 as good as you. We got nothing better to do than trash you for being a Pioneer in the drumming world for arguably pushing the technical and creative boundaries farther ahead than any other drummer of the last 10 to 12 years even guy's like Lang, Marco, Chambers, Mangini, Phillips etc. have said as much, and for drawing HUGE crowds at NAMM and wherever you go.

[Will-Myster]

I liked it.
Thanks for sharing it.


Will.

[FloEy]

VIRGIL IS GOD!!!!!! yeah its like........hes jus so good! lol I swear give it ten years and all the drummers out there are going to sound like machines lol.

[finnhiggins]

VIRGIL IS GOD!!!!!! yeah its like........hes jus so good! lol I swear give it ten years and all the drummers out there are going to sound like machines lol.

Yay.

don'tbashringodon'tbashringo

[Stu_Strib]

Well after checking out some more stuff to investigate the possibilities to why people might bash this guy, here is my conclusion.

I think he plays too much like Steve Smith, Dave Weckl, Vinnie C. et.al, but not as well. I think he should make his own niche and be a monster ROCK player and cut back on the fusiony stuff that (just my opinion) he doesn't pull off very well.

He strikes me as one of Steve Smith's better students, and not a peer. I liked some stuff I saw with him jamming with his band better!

And yes he is way better than me, but for the 427th time, what does that matter???? We are talking about Virgil Donati here, not Stu Strib. I would gladly take lessons from Virgil, and I would have no qualms telling him I think he sounds a bit like a student of Steve Smith instead of a genuinely unique drummer. He might punch me, but oh well ;-)

Sorry, I'm trying to be Simon Cowell-esque here with some sort of witty analogy, but that's all I got.

[Bernhard]

Just at the moment received a picture from Alex Solca - photographer for Modern Drummer.

Hope you like it too...

Bernhard

[Aidan]

That is a first. Virgil sounds like Steve Smith and Dave Weckl. In 12 years of listening to Virg that is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that he even remotely sounds like those guys. Virgil absolutely has his own sound and it is nothing close to those guys WOW!! And lets just say that he wont be needing to take lessons from Weckl or Smith any time soon. No actually it is Dave Weckl that has said that Virgil is SO GOOD! that he cannot imagine the time and discipline to develop his technique and chops.

And hey Floey and Finnihgans or whatever lets hear your playing. Come on let hear your contributions to the music world. I got an idea go knock on the doors of Steve Weingart, Brett Garsed, Bunny Brunel, Tony Mac, Mitch Forman, Tom Kennedy, or Allan Holdsworth and on and on and show them how terrific you are as players and not just windbags sucking on sour grapes and maybe they might want to record an album with you or go down to the Potato and Jam, since you are all that. You might even get to charge people 20 bucks a pop since you are that good. You guys are nothing but blowhards. What you play with your local jazz band, I am impressed. Or know do not tell me you actually got some guys together to record an album. The locals really like your playing GREAT! I am really impressed now. AH you have read many books on what a REAL drummer is, I see lots of head knowledge. It hurts to know you will never have the stature of certain artists that you like to put down.

I got one next time PASIC rolls around and Virg is playing to a thousand people, walk up grab the microphone and say, "hey everyone do not waste your time with this guy he is pathetic, I am hear to show you what real drumming is all about and then you can actually show Virg how to really play musically. And you might want to ask Steve Smith or Vinnie or Weckl or Chambers or Lang why they are sitting in the crowd wasting their time watching Virg. You might want to enlighten them. Then you might ask why PASIC did not invite you to play before a thousand people. Or you might just want to "kill them softly with your amazing words of wisdom and insight. I am sure they will enjoy the comedy routine.

[Bernhard]

Well, the circle of life.......the way of every Virgil or Thomas Thread on every Drumforum in the world: first praising, then discussing, then bashing, then trashing, then deleting and then wining and then restarting....

I can't say, if the glass is half empty or half full, but the clock goes to 12 high noon soon.

But after the deleting the whole thread: A new thread will start with again more brighter shining arguments.....what a waste of practice time...

Ahh, and Aidan: Critics have the right to critizice.....it's their job - don't ask them to drum.
And great Drummers: you NEVER hear a bad word from them, they are not critics and they don't do it either.

Bernhard

[FloEy]

That is a first. Virgil sounds like Steve Smith and Dave Weckl. In 12 years of listening to Virg that is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that he even remotely sounds like those guys. Virgil absolutely has his own sound and it is nothing close to those guys WOW!! And lets just say that he wont be needing to take lessons from Weckl or Smith any time soon. No actually it is Dave Weckl that has said that Virgil is SO GOOD! that he cannot imagine the time and discipline to develop his technique and chops.

And hey Floey and Finnihgans or whatever lets hear your playing. Come on let hear your contributions to the music world. I got an idea go knock on the doors of Steve Weingart, Brett Garsed, Bunny Brunel, Tony Mac, Mitch Forman, Tom Kennedy, or Allan Holdsworth and on and on and show them how terrific you are as players and not just windbags sucking on sour grapes and maybe they might want to record an album with you or go down to the Potato and Jam, since you are all that. You might even get to charge people 20 bucks a pop since you are that good. You guys are nothing but blowhards. What you play with your local jazz band, I am impressed. Or know do not tell me you actually got some guys together to record an album. The locals really like your playing GREAT! I am really impressed now. AH you have read many books on what a REAL drummer is, I see lots of head knowledge. It hurts to know you will never have the stature of certain artists that you like to put down.

I got one next time PASIC rolls around and Virg is playing to a thousand people, walk up grab the microphone and say, "hey everyone do not waste your time with this guy he is pathetic, I am hear to show you what real drumming is all about and then you can actually show Virg how to really play musically. And you might want to ask Steve Smith or Vinnie or Weckl or Chambers or Lang why they are sitting in the crowd wasting their time watching Virg. You might want to enlighten them. Then you might ask why PASIC did not invite you to play before a thousand people. Or you might just want to "kill them softly with your amazing words of wisdom and insight. I am sure they will enjoy the comedy routine.

whoa there dude, think before you type. if anything i was complimenting virgil, his playing is inhuman and i happen to be a fan. I dont know what your problem is but please take it out somewhere else.

[TitanSound]

I got one next time PASIC rolls around and Virg is playing to a thousand people, walk up grab the microphone and say, "hey everyone do not waste your time with this guy he is pathetic

I never saw anyone calling him pathetic.

This is a public forum and people will have thier opinions about things that you may not like, no point in being an arse about it though.

I am not a great fan of Virgil Donati but I admire his immense talent, I think thats pretty much the feeling of a few people on these forums.

[Aidan]

Floey my bad. But it sure is hard to take " give it ten years and every drummer will sound like a machine LOL" as a compliment. I have read this statement a thousand times about different drummers and it has never been in a good light. But I have no right to not take your word as truth, I apologize. I do not apologize to the others that have used this and other forums to trash certain drummers repeatedly. Do we not have better things to do than repeatedly tear down other drummers who have accomplished far more than most ever will. Not once will you find me trashing another drummer even If I do not necessarily enjoy their playing. We all like who we like why go around openly ripping apart others. It honestly seems like some get a kick out of doing this. Why do it? What does it accomplish? It comes across as just foolish banter by people who seem to get a morbid joy by constantly critisizing others. Virg, Lang, Marco among others they are constantly getting crap by others who obviously are not a fraction of the drummer and musician that the aforementioned are. And the "Oh I am just giving my honest opinion, is that not the reason forums exist" statement got old ten years ago. Sharing ones thought in respectful manner is one thing but taking constant jabs at someone like a broken record player is too obvious to what the intent really is.

I apologize Bernhard for reacting to certain "critics" repeatedly foolish comments. It is your board and I need to respect your wishes, no matter how hard it is not to respond to the kind of crap that constantly comes up.

And Bernhard your statements are VERY true about the truly Great drummers having better things to do than put down other musicians.

[TitanSound]

There is a fine line between what one person interprets as putting someone down. You started trashing people who you know nothing about because they do not agree with you.

If you dont like someones opinion say so but dont say stuff along the lines of

You guys are nothing but blowhards. What you play with your local jazz band, I am impressed. Or know do not tell me you actually got some guys together to record an album. The locals really like your playing GREAT! I am really impressed now. AH you have read many books on what a REAL drummer is, I see lots of head knowledge. It hurts to know you will never have the stature of certain artists that you like to put down.

Because you are doing exactly what you are protesting against.

[tambian89]

I definately agree with the Adam's post (the opening statement). Virgil Donati has such skill, such a sense of his drum set that he seems almost the ideal drummer. He has some of the fastest double bassing I've heard (and I listen to a lot of thrash, death, and speed metal), and he has an amzing sense of rhythm. I don't know if he is known for use of odd time signatures, but his drum parts are amazing. I think he is probaly the most skilled drummer of all genres.

[tambian89]

I also saw live at astoria, and can agree that Donati plays an insane solo at the end. I think he is the perfect complimentary part for Steve Vai. I consider Donati a drum virtuoso, just as Vai is a guitar virtuoso.

[DogBreath]

I apologize Bernhard for reacting to certain "critics" repeatedly foolish comments. It is your board and I need to respect your wishes, no matter how hard it is not to respond to the kind of crap that constantly comes up.

And Bernhard your statements are VERY true about the truly Great drummers having better things to do than put down other musicians.
Calling someone else's opinion "crap" because you disagree with them is just silly. And I think that what Bernhard may have been saying is that you should have better things to do than to put other drummers down. Stating an opinion is fine, but calling people blowhards and putting down their gigs isn't helpful or welcome here.

/2 cents

[Coz]

There is a fine line between what one person interprets as putting someone down. You started trashing people who you know nothing about because they do not agree with you.

If you dont like someones opinion say so but dont say stuff along the lines of



Because you are doing exactly what you are protesting against.

Well said Titan!

Do you think pros sit around worrying about getting put down on a forum? Music is art and art is subjective and opinoins are like bum holes - everyones got one!

We can never please everyone and I think any publicity is good publicity. If someone said I was crap (and I'm sure they have) that meant they had to at least listened to me and that gives me even more determination to be better not only as a musician but as a person.

Coz

[Stu_Strib]

That is a first. Virgil sounds like Steve Smith and Dave Weckl. In 12 years of listening to Virg that is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that he even remotely sounds like those guys.


Evidently you didnt' listen to the video that started this thread then ;-)

And for the 4,278TH time, what does Finnhiggin's playing ability have to do with the topic at hand?

Look, I was just exploring the reasons behind the phenomena of mass Virgil Donati "distaste". I don't think anyone here is saying anything bad about him. He definitely has a better unique sound on other clips that I've found SINCE this one.

[finnhiggins]

Ahh, and Aidan: Critics have the right to critizice.....it's their job - don't ask them to drum.
And great Drummers: you NEVER hear a bad word from them, they are not critics and they don't do it either.


Well, it's a nice idea. But the most savage things I've ever heard anybody say about Virgil came from a guy with a page here on Drummerworld, so I must admit that doesn't reflect my experience.

As for Aidan, mate... you can't even figure out when somebody is on your side of an argument, how do you expect to win it? As for my playing, go rummage over in the "Your Playing" forum if you feel the urge. Nothing overly special, but since when has that devalued an opinion? Or do you have to be Steven Spielberg to say that Ewe Boll is a lousy director?

[Bernhard]

Well, it's a nice idea. But the most savage things I've ever heard anybody say about Virgil came from a guy with a page here on Drummerworld, so I must admit that doesn't reflect my experience.


Ok, the exception confirms the rule - as we say in Switzerland....

Bernhard

[DogBreath]

Well, it's a nice idea. But the most savage things I've ever heard anybody say about Virgil came from a guy with a page here on Drummerworld, so I must admit that doesn't reflect my experience.
Right, a guy, out of the hundreds featured on DrummerWorld. So I guess maybe that does prove the point?

[Aidan]

DogBreath I hear what you are saying, but if I am a blowhard for getting tired of guys repeatedly putting down others drumming contributions than so be it. I happen to know that others here STRONGLY agree with me. Did I put down someones gig or ability NO!! I made the point that guys get on here and say well I have a gig and play drums or read a book about this or that or talked to someone about this drummer therefore I have a right to trash others who have accomplished far more than those who do the trashing, which I do not agree with. A blowhard in my opinion is someone always talking themselves up whether it is their ability or knowledge of what is real music and their narrow point of view on what REAL drumming is and is not and constantly putting others abilities or contributions down, which happens here quite abit. Again I have not trashed anyone about their drumming at all but get tired of a forum being used as a sledgehammer against certain drummers. Again I find it very bizarre that no names in the drumming and music world(not that you have to be WELL known to be a good drummer) are the ones who the MAJORITY of the time are tearing someone else down who has the resume and the ability behind them.

Yeah I did check out your stuff Finn lets just leave it at that.

[finnhiggins]

Right, a guy, out of the hundreds featured on DrummerWorld. So I guess maybe that does prove the point?

Or not - not being in the habit of regularly talking to most of the guys on here I wouldn't know. What can I say? Too small a sample size to draw conclusions, seeing as I've only met a couple of the people on here.

On the other hand, I do remember quite clearly that all of my teachers at music school definitely had opinions as to what they liked and disliked in drumming, and weren't afraid to share them if the topic came up. I remember one teacher I had a lot of respect for making it quite clear he was no fan of Chad Smith. Fair enough - it wasn't his thing, and I don't think it would bother Chad any to know that some random British drummer doesn't think he's the best thing since Tony Williams. Equally, while I disagreed on the subject, somebody thinking that Chad Smith is not particularly worthy of respect as a drummer doesn't dimish my enjoyment of what he's done. Or there's Joe Morris' comment over on another thread about Mike Portnoy. Clearly Joe is not a fan there - that's his opinion and he's entirely entitled to it, even if he can't sit down and bash out the latest Dream Theater album without a moment of thought on the subject.

So I guess my take is... If you enjoy Virgil Donati's playing... all power to you! But he clearly is a player who is a cause of some contention, and it's clearly not because he's (objectively) amazingly awesome and people are just bitter on him - most people expressing a distaste for Virgil tend to have an alternative they'd suggest. Personally on the listening front I'd rather listen to Marco Minneman or Grant Collins because I do, generally, find their playing a bit more shaped, structured and musical. That's just taste, it's not because I can play as well as either of them so I'm somehow not jealous of their chops anymore. I guess my issue here is that it seems like you're allowed to have taste in drummers as long as you don't dislike Virgil Donati, or his little self-appointed Internet Minions will come out and lambast you for your arrogance. Not addressing moderation here, just the likes of Aidan.

I'd die to have Virgil's chops. He's done an amazing thing in building them, and I'm as happy as the next guy to stand around in sheer amazement if we're going to have a technical discussion of the mechanics of what he's doing. But personally, I really can't stand what he does musically, either solo or in a band. But it seems like somehow my right to a musical opinion is entirely negated by the amount of time Virgil has spent polishing his single stroke roll? I don't get that. Slipknot have clearly put a fair bit of time into their music, but that doesn't mean that saying "I really can't stand Slipknot" is off-limits for anybody. Ultimately, nobody gets into music unless they're comfortable with somebody saying "Hey, you guys really suck!". If you're that thin-skinned you tend to get out of the industry pretty fast.

[NUTHA JASON]

well i'm a blow hard and i think virgil has incredible chops, can groove but is not my cup of tea by a very long shot.

j

[Stu_Strib]

well i'm a blow hard and i think virgil has incredible chops, can groove but is not my cup of tea by a very long shot.

j

That is the most poignant post ever. I second the sentiment.

I'm with Finn too. This is a discussion thread about good/bad/ugly/nice/different, whatever. If all we ever do is say nice things for things that people post that are really bad, then this would be a dull web site.

[Aster]

Just for the record, I had taken a whole "2 lessons" from Virgil Donati when I lived in Melbourne, Australia, (where I grew up) some 15 years ago way before Virgil became the mega star drummer he is today. He is a very talented and gifted drummer..............and deserves to be up there with all the greats !

[Aidan]

Hats off to you Nutha Jason, you proved that someone can give praise where it is due and yet at the same time say someone is not neccessarily your cup of tea without making someone look or sound bad, BIG hand clap.

Aidan

[toteman2]

Well after checking out some more stuff to investigate the possibilities to why people might bash this guy, here is my conclusion.

I think he plays too much like Steve Smith, Dave Weckl, Vinnie C. et.al, but not as well. I think he should make his own niche and be a monster ROCK player and cut back on the fusiony stuff that (just my opinion) he doesn't pull off very well.


Wow, I've never heard anyone say Virgil sounds like Smith, Weckl, or Vinne. Stu, are you sure you've been listening to Virgil Donati?

And what drummer featured on drummerworld said something "savage" about Virgil? This is news to me.


To add, I can't can't get enough of Virgil. I'm most interested by him at this moment in time, and have been obsessed for about 2 years. I'm either listening to him, Carey, Weckl, or Gadd alot this past month. I go on monthly swings, when I'm obsessed with a certain style/s.

[toteman2]

I'm amazed.

Finn, You would Rather listen to Grant Collins? OMG!

Don't get the wrong impression. I've looked into what Collins is going for sometime now. My honest opinion. I'm left totally empty. I boared to peices that I can't watch it. You would have to chain me to the chair to get me to sit for more than 5 mintues to watch him. While his technique and ostinato building are extreamly impressive (espeicially his footwork and independence), I'm not feeling anything in his playing. I don't know, I'm just astounded that you are into him.

[finnhiggins]

And what drummer featured on drummerworld said something "savage" about Virgil? This is news to me.


Nothing public, this was in conversation. I'd rather not name names if that's OK, because it would involve dragging somebody else into the public eye for comments they made privately. If you don't want to take my word for it that's also fine, I wasn't looking for validation with an appeal to authority - merely pointing out that my personal experience was not that all pro drummers are sort of like Buddhist monks, all serenity and light and completely free of negative opinions of each other.

After all, Bill Bruford is a fantastic drummer and not exactly subtle about his dislike for the hyper-choppy approach and those who practice it.

[finnhiggins]

I'm amazed.

Finn, You would Rather listen to Grant Collins? OMG!

Don't get the wrong impression. I've looked into what Collins is going for sometime now. My honest opinion. I'm left totally empty. I boared to peices that I can't watch it. You would have to chain me to the chair to get me to sit for more than 5 mintues to watch him. While his technique and ostinato building are extreamly impressive (espeicially his footwork and independence), I'm not feeling anything in his playing. I don't know, I'm just astounded that you are into him.

I must admit I've not watched a vast amount of his stuff, but the things I've seen have left me extremely impressed. Not so much by the chops - once he lets the singles fly over the ostinatos I tend to agree with you, it does go a bit empty. But some of the stuff he constructs is really quite clever. I saw one piece called "The Battle" or something similar that you would swear was a traditional Chinese percussion piece performed by a very large ensemble - it had authentic tones, rhythms and structure, all coming out of one guy on a drum kit. I was quite impressed because even though he was playing stuff in multiple voices it all made a whole lot of sense musically, both as a whole and with each piece isolated. It also seemed to have been very well researched, which is always impressive in a musician trying something in an alien style.

Donati doesn't do that for me when I watch his ostinato stuff in multiple meters. I just keep hearing numbers, not parts... if you see what I mean.

[Aidan]

Here is my 2 cents, I love Grant for his independence and creativity but his technique is far from being real clean and consistent with both his feet and hands and his chops well they really do not do much for me, not horribly impressive. Grant and this is just me speaking comes across as more of a percussionist playing drums at times than a traditional drummer behind the kit but that is just my opinion. Grant is pretty darn original, props to him for that.

[jose munoz]

i think virgil donati is the best drummer and will be for a long time... his double stroke pedal is just amazing! he can be as fast as he can! he has no boundaries , there is non higher! NON HIGHER!! "after all this time i feel i have only scratched the surface" virgil donati...

[0neyellowdrum]

I guess my issue here is that it seems like you're allowed to have taste in drummers as long as you don't dislike Virgil Donati, or his little self-appointed Internet Minions will come out and lambast you for your arrogance.

It is my guess that one makes comments like this to inflame reponse. It is comments like these whereby one loses some crediblity with me. It is comments like these that one gets accused of arrogance. I guess my issue here is that it seems like you're allowed to have taste in drummers as long as you agree that Virgil cannot groove.( Does thinking so mean I couldn't possibly know what groove is? or be able to recognize it in other drummers?) I enjoy all the debate here until there are comments like these that tend to imply one's opinion is superior over anothers. All the intellectualizing done here will not change my view about Virgil or any other drummer. It is great reading, entertaining and I respect it greatly but.... if we all keep the comments on target and not against each other this thread may have a chance of not being closed.

[Morgenthaler]

I believe that the material on which most of Virgil's critics judge him, is limited to progressive/rock material from his -so far- 10 years living in the US or internet videos.

He's done tons of studio pop rock and jazz recordings in Australia, and believe me, I 've had friends guessing "Gadd?", "Marotta?", "Laboriel?" when I've played some of the older stuff of Virgils. He entered the Australian studioscene in the mid- late '70s -most people have no clue about this...
I've got about 45 or so -records with him. He can groove. Believe me.

[NUTHA JASON]

i got to believe this. a guy like virgil has miles of studio tape with his drumming on. very few of us can claim to know the full length of virgil's career. judging any drummer must shurely involve at least looking at half of his/her whole recorded material and virgil's is huge and obscure. what he does these days is so far off the envelope that it doesn't sit nicely in my ear but i have to believe that he can hold down a four on the floor should the song call for it. lol...imagine him covering an AC/DCsong. (that said, i learned more about drumming from phil rudd than i ever learned from virgil)

j

[Aidan]

The problem is most guys are not willing to take the time and spend the money to check out certain guys catalog whether it is Virg or others. I can guarantee as Morgenthaler said Virg has done ALOT of studio work for MANY years now and some of it would throw people for a loop. I guess he got the call to record tracks for the Alfie soundtrack because he cannot groove and adapt to any musical situation. If I remember correctly that soundtrack was the farthest thing from extreme progressive/fusion. But as some do know he can do pretty much(not everything under the sun) whatever he wants VERY well. As Simon Phillips said after working with Virg in the studio, " along with being the most technically amazing drummer I have ever seen,this guy can adapt to any situation in the studio and he can do it quickly and with ease."

[Stu_Strib]

Hats off to you Nutha Jason, you proved that someone can give praise where it is due and yet at the same time say someone is not neccessarily your cup of tea without making someone look or sound bad, BIG hand clap.

Aidan

Yes, but SOMEONE will get all offended and call him stupid, just watch. Nutha, it doesn't take too much to determine a guy's drum style, when HE himself is the one who chose to play THAT solo on THAT video. Sure he has other skills and abilities, but after about 5 videos of the same type of pseudo-fusiony chops riddled stuff, I think we get the point ;-)

And Finn, that whole post about keeping your source secret was great! After all your posts, I was surprised to find you have wit ;-)

So far none of my points have been cheap shots trying to tear down Donati. I've simply tried to state what people could possibly not like about his playing. I don't think anyone is saying he id overrated in the Travis Barker/Joey Jordison vein. For many drummers, it's just a matter of taste, or the perception of the lack thereof.

It's actually all the posts that start with "Virgil is the best drummer ever...look at his double pedal speed...blah blah" that most of us disagree with, and that does kind of a disservice to Virgil.

[S2K]

Virgil Donati.....I have heard three of his albums...and I'm sure he is the greatest progressive drummer.... also he gots the best double bass beat's composing ability i've ever heard.....have you ever listened "Trencherman" of "On the Virg"??

[timebandit]

Virgil Donati.....I have heard three of his albums...and I'm sure he is the greatest progressive drummer.... also he gots the best double bass beat's composing ability i've ever heard.....have you ever listened "Trencherman" of "On the Virg"??
Yes!! Virgil is awesome!!!!

[toteman2]

Wow Bernhard,

I'm really diggin Virgil's sessions with Hoekstra that you put up...You really get to see another side of Virgil's playing, other than the "alien-like" technical displays featured on his page on DW...

Loving the groove he lays down in this one...He is always complimenting the music and groove only the way Donati can...http://www.drummerworld.com/m3u/Virgildonatiurban.m3u


Good stuff Bernhard...

[averypoordrummer]

Donati has absolutely insane chops, i saw him play a solo on a steve vai dvd and i'd never seen anything like it, blew me away. i would like to hear more

[yves]

i got to believe this. a guy like virgil has miles of studio tape with his drumming on. very few of us can claim to know the full length of virgil's career. judging any drummer must shurely involve at least looking at half of his/her whole recorded material and virgil's is huge and obscure. what he does these days is so far off the envelope that it doesn't sit nicely in my ear but i have to believe that he can hold down a four on the floor should the song call for it. lol...imagine him covering an AC/DCsong. (that said, i learned more about drumming from phil rudd than i ever learned from virgil)

j

A couple of years back (the last clinic I caught him at), Virgil was asked a question that kind of went like this:
"Do you play any straight stuff?" (not an exact quote)

Virgil mentioned that he was just fresh off some LA studio sessions, doing some studio for a project that included some Rolling Stones dudes.... It was a very straight rock album.

I'll try and find the credit. I've not heard it myself, but I would have to assume that Virgil can hold down a 4/4 feel just fine.

[toteman2]

Good God!!!!

I don't know how he does it with such power and clarity...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3J0tI2S7A6U&search=virgil%20donati


I also found this one...Excellent improvised groove...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OVBEnHA1rsg&search=virgil%20donati


Yes, I'm still on a Donati Binge.

[brittc89]

I got Virgil's play-along recently and honestly it made me think he may be the best power drummer on this planet. He played a groove in 7/16 with his hands, but he was a playing a 4 feel underneath it like, 1..4..7..3..6..2..5.., etc. on the kick drum. It really blows me away the stufff he is able to do on a set. Another example is the craziest lick I have seen in the Middle of Native metal. I LOVE THIS GUY!

[jonny]

brittc89 - are you an On The Virg fan? Haven't seen it mentioned much here. It's probably my favourite drumming album, and I think the production is amazing. Check out the song 'Trencherman' if you haven't already.

[VampiricNightMachine]

Virgil Donati is one of the most professional, most versatile and simply most amazing drummers of our time. And it is in our time only in which the best drummers exist, of course, because the boundaries have been pushed always further and further.
Now many could say of course that old drummers like buddy rich had better feel and so on.... well this is a matter of taste. Also that they were more entertaining and real superstars...Personally I don´t really care much for this entertaining thing and this whole flashyness, at least not in big bands.
People are saying here that the music Donati plays is often very boring and even "amateurish" which is a really bold and unfair statement I think. Ok I know that finnhiggins said especially his choice of parts is boring not the whole music and drumming and that there is no real release and tension in his playing and so on. I think statements like these are very dependent on opinion, which is ok, but by saying them the way some people said here, they seem like facts and really diminish all the greatness of this great drummer and musician.
It is really not fair to talk about Virgil that way , I have such huge respect for him, all the time he spend practicing on all things possible and dedicating his life to music and drums and then there is a huge load of negative comments about his drumming and music.

In my opinion this is a bit sad, I really enjoy his drumming, watching him....I don´t know any other drummer who plays with that passion and also that seriousness. For me drumming is also something very serious(which does not mean that it should not be fun as well). Look at his face while playing, so passionate, I think this man real embodies drumming.
Personally I enjoy his music(the things I know,at least), escpecially planet x

Now somebody also said that one can not always be friendly, even on this forum, and one has to be direct and clearly say his opinion no matter if it hurts someone....come on this forum is sometimes too friendly I think.Of course, there has to be respect but people are very indulgent here I think with many drummers and musicians who are not that good and deserve all that credit.
But why "bashing" virgil, does not make sense to me.
I didn´t want to offend anyone with this post, everyone can have his opinion of course, I just wanted something positive here to be written for such a great guy...maybe he will read this one day. My biggest respect for him

[thumper]

I have only viewed brief video clips of Virgil Donati playing, and from what I have seen, I'm very impressed with the guy. I know this much:I bought a 16" Sabian Saturation crash that he helped design, and it's one of the favorite cymbals in my setup. I play it alongside of my AA medium/thin crash, and it has so much defintion in it; it's hard to describe. Great for soft buildup with mallets, and for hard rock, it's second to none. I think that Donati is a very valuable and worthy input for anyone who likes more complex "rock" based music, and especially for drummers...
my 2 cents

[Stu_Strib]

Look at his face while playing, so passionate,

"Constipated" comes to mind ;-)

I don't think Finn is "bashing" Virgil, nor am I. We just don't care for it too much, and explained why with fairly clear logic.

We appreciate your enthusiasm for Virgil and your comments.

[Aidan]

Virg is one of the great Pioneers of the drumming world regardless of what a few think. We can talk about styles we like and he does not do enough of this or that. All that aside very FEW!! and I mean few have pushed the technical and creative boundaries of drumming as much as Virgil has. And let me tell you there are a few here and there who criticize Virg to no end but let me tell you he has PLENTY!! of drummers and fans alike who have great admiration for him and his drumming contributions. Many more who admire him then those who like to rip on him. That I do know. He sure does not have a lack of people showing up to see him perform. And Stu I am not talking about you just so you do not think I am singling you out since you replied right before I did. I am talking in general here.

By the way here is a small but cool clip of Virgil SOLOING! at Pasic. This is a solo at a clinic not Virg playing with a pop band, remember that. Just go to the bottom left hand corner of the PAS home page and you will see the clip. Enjoy.

www.pas.org

And yes Virg did lay down tracks with Mick Jagger for the Alfie soundtrack. And Virg will also be featured on TOTO vocalist Joseph Williams new solo album. It will be in the melodic pop-rock vein more then likely. More then likely reminiscent of TOTO. The guy can play anything he wants in a convincing manner. That is why he gets hired.

[tleetech]

anyone see him Saturday night at the Baked Potato in L.A.? He was off the map!!! My mouth is still hanging open. :)

[jonny]

anyone see him Saturday night at the Baked Potato in L.A.? He was off the map!!! My mouth is still hanging open. :)

I'd love to see him at the Baked Potato. Who was he playing with? Even Vinnie admits to going to see Virg there, and being in complete awe.

[DogBreath]

I wasn't able to catch him this time because I had to work, but he plays there fairly regularly so it's just a matter of time. They only post the calendar for the Baked Potato online once a month, so for someone who lives as far away as I do it can be hard to plan ahead. I swear that place is the best kept secret ever. Also there this month: Abe Laborial Jr., Jimmy Branly, Gary Novak, Chad Wakerman, and Marco Minnemann.

[tleetech]

I'd love to see him at the Baked Potato. Who was he playing with? Even Vinnie admits to going to see Virg there, and being in complete awe. See below! It was absolutely amazing!

[jonny]

Yeah, well the problem is that I live in London so ... I guess I'd have to build a visit to BP into a holiday, if I ever have that much money.

I guess I shouldn't complain. Last year I saw two performances of the Virgil Donati Band in Australia (the lineup with Steve Weingart). Those were amazing gigs. And I caught a few clinics as well.

When I saw him live, the first thing that struck me was the sheer power he plays with. I've seen loads of videos of him, but nothing can prepare you for seeing him live. His bass drum work whenever I've seen him has been so clinical and precise.

[LinearDrummer]

I wasn't able to catch him this time because I had to work, but he plays there fairly regularly so it's just a matter of time. They only post the calendar for the Baked Potato online once a month, so for someone who lives as far away as I do it can be hard to plan ahead. I swear that place is the best kept secret ever. Also there this month: Abe Laborial Jr., Jimmy Branly, Gary Novak, Chad Wakerman, and Marco Minnemann.

I saw him play at the Baked potato thru a friends recomendation and his chops blew me away....I wasn't really diggin the music too much but I really like his performance...
The Potato is a cool spot to check out bands...

BTW - Jimmy Branly is really tastey....kinda sounds a little bit like Weckl's latin chops.....

[Stu_Strib]

I never heard of the Baked Potato until DW forum. Note to self: skip Disneyland next time and head for the Potato...

[jonny]

Think of it like this .... the Baked Potato is to good drumming what Florence was to the Renaissance. I've haven't been, but the amount of good bands and drummers frequenting that club is amazing.

[Morgenthaler]

This just to tell everyone who might be interested (!) that Virgil's site has been relaunched with a couple of cool new features!
You can now pay per lesson and many new videohighlights of performances will air shortly.

I am moderating there, so you will see me jump in here now and then to defend him.

Many of the things written in this thread amazes me. Virgin Donati? I mean how low can you go? You have no idea what you are talking about, carrying on rumours and heresay.
Like I stated earlier I have a good collection of Virgils earlier work ( I've got about 50 albums), and he's got so much up his sleeve that none of his typical critics have heard ANYTHING of.

He was a platinum selling artist with Southern Sons back in Australia and Asia. Just because it didn't happen in Europe or the US, doesn't take anything away from it.
Another thing...The constant comparison of Virg vs. Buddy...
Buddy was a phenomenon. Virgil is a phenomenon. Buddy played swing music exclusively. Virgil plays straight ahead Rock/Pop/Power Fusion primarily, but rest asured he can swing.

Guess who Philly Joe Jones recommended to replace him in Bill Evans group when he, himself left? Virgil.

I am amazed at the level of hostility people show him.
He is a personal friend of mine -has been for more than 10 years, he's quite an extraordinary human being - aside from his drumming. Extremely inspiring to be around.

If you have any interest in improving technically or otherwise, check out his relaunched site : www.virgildonati.com

Hope to see you there!
All the best,

[Sticktrick]

Why don't you upload some of this older material that you are talking about? Just some mp3 snippets if you don't have any permission. I'm sure everybody would be happy about that.

The stuff you said that would sound like Gadd or Marotta. I am positive that Virgil is able to play in this style... I just never ever heard him do that. I saw him playing with PlanetX and you can trust me that the music absolutely sucked. I left half into the show.

Sure: insanely well played, insanlely complex and an insane Drumsolo. The problem I had was, that there was just no musical expression whatsoever. Just plain showing off of technique and soloing ability.

Now I don't say, that these players can't play. Absolutely not. I know that Virgil is a Drumgod and that Sherinian is one of the most musical men walking around on this planet. Maybe I was just too stupid to get what they were doing.

So therefore.... I would REALLY REALLY REALLY love to here something else played by Virgil than the stuff posted here and on his site. I just don't like all this stuff since its only about technique and playing fast in odd meters....

Please - if you have some straight funk, pop or rock stuff.... or even Virgil swinging in a BigBand... Post it. Do all of us this favor and I'm sure that all the discussion will vanish within seconds.

Thanks.

[Morgenthaler]

Hi Sticktrick

Cool, positive attitude!


These are old bits of Virgil on Peter Cupples' records back in the early '80s:

Uptempo pop:
http://petercupples.com/recordings/MP3s/PCB-YouNeverKnow.mp3

Slow ballad:
http://petercupples.com/recordings/MP3s/PCB-FearOfThunder.mp3

Straight ahead and VERY '80s!:
http://petercupples.com/recordings/MP3s/PCB-LoveWorld.mp3

Another slow ballad:
http://petercupples.com/recordings/MP3s/PCB-SittingHere.mp3

And for straightahead pop/rock...

The upcoming Vertigo/Joseph Williams (Ex Toto) album:

http://www.frontiers.it/portals/0/multimedia/vertigo2_sample2.mp3

http://www.frontiers.it/portals/0/multimedia/vertigo2_sample6.mp3

http://www.frontiers.it/portals/0/multimedia/vertigo2_sample7.mp3

I hope you enjoy these, if not for anything else, then just as an expansion of your
view on the man.
All the best,
Morgenthaler

PS: I'm afraid I can't trust you on the Planet X review. I happen to LOVE "math-oriented" music. Earlier you'd get that more or less only from Indian or Balkan music, but now the west is slowly picking up on that, with Virgil being on the compositional and performing forefront.

[toteman2]

Good God...Talk about taking a step back from blinding technique...I've never heard any of these before...You would never be able to tell it was Virgil...I mean we see all these solo's of him online just blowing eveyone away with chops and technique, but then I listen to this and it does not resemble the guy I've sceen online in the slightest...I have to admit, I'm very ignorant to a ton of his work...After doing a little reaserch myself, Jesus does he have a long list of studio work...

Thanks for the enlightenment Morganthaler...

[finnhiggins]

Morgen,

Thanks for those. All well done, and credit where credit is due. However I can't really say I would mistake any of it for the likes of Gadd or Marotta. It's good, capable session playing - all power to him for that. But I don't honestly think we'd be talking about Donati if this was all he did, he'd be one of the many unsung solid working session players out there. He's known because of the flash, and the flash is what he does best - it's the thing that makes him a name in the drumming world.

None of the files posted above shows the kind of creativity or individuality in a groove context that you'd expect of Gadd, Marotta, Purdie or even one of the choppier session guys like Vinnie. Which isn't in any way damning, as those guys are absolute geniuses in that respect. But I do think the claims made placing Donati on the same level are hyperbole, somewhat.

Also, as the person who posted the reference to Virgil being referred to as "Virgin", I do agree - it's low, and not something I would stoop to. That was directly in response to a claim that Virgil is universally loved by pros everywhere, which is not my experience personally. I'd just like to clarify that I'm not making *any* claim of fact, and the person making the comment wasn't either - it was, I believe, more an obvious punned insult than any kind of rumour.

[Morgenthaler]

I never said that you would go: "Hey that's exactly like Gadd/Laboriel/Marotta!!" -but in a blind test some of my friends were guessing those names : why I thought I'd mention it:) There are better examples of Virgil grooving "Gadd'ish" (you know what I mean) but the clips posted were merely the ones I could find online. Thanks for listening.
M

[finnhiggins]

I never said that you would go: "Hey that's exactly like Gadd/Laboriel/Marotta!!" -but in a blind test some of my friends were guessing those names : why I thought I'd mention it:) There are better examples of Virgil grooving "Gadd'ish" (you know what I mean) but the clips posted were merely the ones I could find online. Thanks for listening.
M

That's all good. I'm just of the view that Virgil is an innovator only really in the sphere of technique, independence and extremely dense polyrhythmic/polymetric playing - and personally I find the stuff he does there rather random rather than having a unique individuality. He's certainly a very capable player (understatement of the year), but I just don't think he actually comes up with anything that I would personally peg as being great - either in a groove or choppy context.

The thing with somebody like Matt Chamberlain, Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Gadd etc is that if you stick on a record with them then people can actually guess it's them, even when they're playing amazingly appropriately in very varied styles. It's the lack of something like that in Virgil's playing that is my major criticism of him, along with the fact that I really don't think his most identifiable aspect is actually very good in a musical sense.

But that's where we come down to taste. I know my friend the Toteman is going to disagree with me immediately here!

[Sticktrick]

Wow - this is actually going somewhere!

First of all: Thanks Morgenthaler for these great examples. If you can up some more Gaddish stuff, go ahead, I'd love to hear it.

Secondly: Great and tastefull playing on all of those - I have to admit that I'd never thought of Virgil on those examples. Great.

Thirdly: As always - I'm with Finn in what he stated about inventiveness and being a true genius. To me, Virgil feels like a drummer that worked and practised his ass off, which is great. Other guys like Gadd or Vinne feel different to me (allthough they practised their ass off too...) - they have that certain creative spark that is hard to capture and that I love so much about them.


Last thing I have to say is about your comment on Planet X and mathematical music. You can trust me, that I am DEEPLY into that kind of stuff - I was a student of Ralph Humphrey and he is the godfather of oddmeter drumming. I also took lessons with a tablamaster from India and know some of the concepts of their music. I have a quite solid collection of indian classical music and some great stuff with Trilok Gurtu on it. In other words: I know what I'm talking about - not wanting to be arrogant here, don't get me wrong. But all this music is not about showing off. Plant X sounded to me like it was. Thats what I didn't like.

Just listen to some Peter Gabriel or Sting. Many Odd Meters right there, a lot of math. But it doesn't sound like math at all and thats the trick.


But to go @ topic again: Very nive playing and FINALLY a guy who posts stuff from Virgil that actually does sound like music and not just fancy drumming. Great. Thank you!

This should clear up quite some arguments that happened in this thread!

[tambian89]

A really cool video of him playing "Dogboots". I love this this song.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2pFovjMbiOY&search=Virgil%20Donati

Virgil on a Pearl Eliminator:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3J0tI2S7A6U&search=Virgil%20Donati

- Marc

[toteman2]

IMO, once you get Virgil in a musical sceen where he is able to express alot of his own ideas is where you hear is individual style come out, and a very specific one...When I listen to his work with CABB, Planet X, VDB, and On the Virg, I hear a very original, musical, and innovative drummer that does not sound like anyone else in the world...When in this type of setting you could put any group of musicians with him and I would immediatley know it was Virgil...He has a very original way of playing fills, licks, and rhythms that only he does...hence the term "Donatisms"...

Finn, as you know I always do value your opinion even though we do disagree at times...Always liberating to hear what you have to say.

[finnhiggins]

Last thing I have to say is about your comment on Planet X and mathematical music. You can trust me, that I am DEEPLY into that kind of stuff - I was a student of Ralph Humphrey and he is the godfather of oddmeter drumming. I also took lessons with a tablamaster from India and know some of the concepts of their music. I have a quite solid collection of indian classical music and some great stuff with Trilok Gurtu on it. In other words: I know what I'm talking about - not wanting to be arrogant here, don't get me wrong. But all this music is not about showing off. Plant X sounded to me like it was. Thats what I didn't like.


I'm with Sticktrick here. Missed that comment originally, but while Sticktrick is arguing from the Indian angle I'll take the Balkan one. I play with a guitarist from a Croatian family, and through him I've been exposed to quite a lot of the concepts used both in balkan styles and also some of the middle-eastern (mostly Islamic) music where a fair bit of that has filtered in from. One thing that's worth mentioning about the balkan/middle-eastern approach to rhythm is that while it's certainly very odd (I'm working at the moment on a piece in 11/8) it is also very deliberately structured to be musical and easy to comprehend. If you listen to balkan 4/4 playing it's actually not that different from the 11/8 playing or whatever, in that both approaches are clearly constructed from identifiable rhythms and for the most part aren't particularly angular.

The ultra-angular approach to odd-time playing seems to be something that is more of a feature of Western progressive music, it doesn't really seem to have a basis in any ethnic tradition I've yet encountered.

Probably the nearest I've heard to taking the kind of rhythmic concepts you'd see in an ethnic environment and adapting it to extremely conceptually dense Western heavy music would be something like Meshuggah (or Fredrik Thordendal's other work), there's a very clear effort going on in that music to make things both complex yet musically accessible. Parts that sound incredibly complex often unravel to be actually just heavily syncopated 4/4, while odd-time parts overlaid sound more often than not like exciting syncopations. You can hear the two perspectives, but there's a definite effort to make viewing them from either direction a musical experience rather than just a technically impressive feat.

Rhythmic concepts and time signatures are, in my view, just a canvas for an artist to work on. If you envision 4/4 as a standard, say, A4 (or similarly dimensioned) piece of paper then 11/8 could be a piece of paper that is slightly too tall or narrow. Changing the dimensions of the canvas doesn't automatically grant the art merit, but it does change the compositional rules in a way that makes you have to think about them. Unfortunately many people who play in odd times just seem to take the lazy approach of adding or subtracting notes from common-time bars, which IMHO is actually compositional nonsense and has no real shape unless you hit on something purely by accident. Donati hasn't done anything that I've managed to see interesting new compositional concepts hiding inside yet - either I'm too dumb to spot them or I'm smart enough to realise they're not there. Or, third possibility, it's all subjective and I just don't like his approach.

Either way, doesn't do it for me.

[theduke86]

I like those clips a lot. Virgil can definetly groove and I didn't actually know he had that in him. That's really cool. Solid, solid studio playing! I love it.
Let me give an opinion. I don't have very much recording experience. There are guys who work the studios in town here every day. I work maybe once a month, and nothing big. I know though, it can be way, way, way more difficult to play in the studio and come up with a part that may be completely creative and groundbreaking. It's much, much easier and more condusive to working in studios further if you play conservatively. Unless you have a great amount of experience (let's not lie, guys like Gadd and Vinnie et al have played way more sessions) it's hard to play and let an individual voice creep through to the surface. So, it's possible to me that Virgil could have this impact if he did it way more than he does now. No matter what Gadd plays on, he sounds like Gadd. Maybe Virgil doesn't have his studio identity yet.

[Sticktrick]

Yes Finn, I know what you mean and I am with you.

But before anonther discussion rises here, I'd really like to add, that what I sayed about Planet X was clearly not about Virgil - it was about the music of the band (and I think most of the stuff is written by Sherinian). What Virgil does with this band if freakin unbelievable. But I just plain don't like it. That is my own opinion and I stand for it.

BUT there are tons of other bands in this style, that I don't like either like Dream Theater or Marco Minnemanns Solo Projects (and I know Marco personally and he is probably one of the baddest mofas that have ever touched a drumset to say it with the words of Miles Davis, hehe. I love him - great german fellow great sense of humor, great drummer and songwriter. But still I just don't like his stuff - doesn't touch me).

So what I'm trying to say here is, that a) this is a discussion about music and has nothing to do with drumming to me and b) that it is really totally subjective - in other words it shouldn`t get personal because nobodys opinion is the right one - like Mark Schulmann always sayed: Opinions are like noses - everybody has got one.

And for all the guys that are into Virgil because of the flashy stuff AND all the guys that are into Gadd: Check out a german guy called Benny Greb. He is featured on this site and he is OUT OF CONTROL. I love him. If you don't know him, check him out.

[JT1]

In terms of being so far ahead of the race, I would definetly say that Virgil Donati is the Buddy Rich of the modern age. I know this is a bold statement, and I mean it in respects to Buddy Rich, but the thing is as time goes on the drummers are getting better and better and it's slightly niaeve to keep looking back at what HAPPENED when so many new innovations and techniques are happening NOW. That's not to say we shouldn't look back, and keep in mind this IS just my opinion, but I think someone like Virgil, who is the best example of dedication, is leagues beyond anyone else. Guys say he overplays, but I would almost PROMISE you that tons of guys said the same thing about Buddy, and we've even seen it with Weckl, and Coliauta in their time.

Now the question is who's the next Virgil Donati

And I would really rather not make this a huge flame war, and I'm pretty sure I came off too opinionated, so if this thread turns out to be a bad Idea it should probably be deleted.

I completely agree with your statements. Virgil deffinately is the Buddy Rich of our time and is beyond so many drummers out there in terms of skill, technique and style. I know its a small part of drumming but his ability to provide pleasing to the eye stick tricks is awesome he is an insane guy and someone i most admire. If anyone can get Steve Vai live in London his drum solo on it is the best drum solo i've ever seen except Buddy Rich's The Great drum solo with stick tricks.

[Morgenthaler]

Yeah guys!

I hoped for a broadening of everyones perception of Virgils drumming, and it seems it worked!
You should also check out what he played on the "Alfie" soundtrack with Joss Stone, Mick Jagger and Dave Stewart:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0003JAO8G/sr=8-2/qid=1147329811/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-7425290-7786430?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Virgil is playing on 4 tracks:
Lonely Without You
Darkness Of Your Love
Oh Nikki
Counting The Days

[Sticktrick]

Counting the days is sweet. Nice Brushsound....

And the set sounds quite jazzy - I think its an unusual sound from what I know of Virgil. Cool.

[Melvin]

For me Virgil is the greatest known drummer at this time. He is a real master of the kit, he has more control than anyone else I've seen. Virgil is TOO dedicated to drumming and has sacrificed a lot to get where he is right now.

I don't believe he overplays. I haven't heard much of him but what I've heard is totally awesome.

I'm studying this guy for like a week now and my DB technique is getting better. My creativity has grown. My speed and control are getting way better, very fast. I recomend you people studying Virgil, this will help you a lot.

[h3r3tic]

He is my favourite drummer. And I do agree that he´s the new "buddy rich", his masterclasses are so cool

[Morgenthaler]

Virgil was filmed live in Stockholm, Sweden in november of 2005.
The DVD, including 5.1 sound mix and a few hours worth of bonus footage from other events should be out around this coming December!

Check out the preview here:

http://www.virgildonati.com/promo/virgil_promo-livedvd2006.wmv

[Jammin' Jamin]

First off, can somebody tell me the name of the song Virgil Donati and his band are playing in one of the videos on drummerworld. The cool song that sounds like it could be a Primus song. I must know!

Anyhow, there's no way Virgil Donati is the "Buddy Rich" of today. Buddy Rich is a complete natural drummer. It says in his bio that he never recieved a formal lesson and never practiced outside of performances. Buddy Rich has the best hands ever and is so fluid around the kit. He was so creative and brought so many new concepts to the table.

Virgil's playing may be really technical and artsy, but anyone can play like that with practice and rehearsing.

Buddy Rich and Virgil Donati are so different. Buddy is raw skill and Virgil is all finesse.

[Melvin]

Virgil Changed the way I look at drums. Thank's to him I'm like 2 times better in just weeks. What the heck I sound like a infomercial guy...hahaha!

I really love Virgil.

[Drummer_Dude9164]

sure virgil may not be as easy to listen to as buddy or most drummers, but you cannot deny his ability. just because he doesnt play the style you like, does not mean he is a bad drummer. he could easily play all these styles/genres you guys are talking about. he has pushed the limit on virtually everything there is to be pushed, and i think we should all all give him credit for being the most technically capable drummer of our time.

[DrumMasterDave]

Yah i like to think there are 2 types of drummers. theres the type that sound good with whatever they play. Even the ost basic of beats. and then there is th drummers who are Extremely technical. They may not sound as nice, but they can play the most techincal beats and polyrythms! Virgil is one of these! Dont get me wrong, I love both styles!

[MagnZ]

Virgil Rocks:D:D
He was here in Oslo a couple of weeks ago and he held a clinic.
I was blown away. By everything. And he had some awsome ideas about taking simple rudiments and mix with them. Like playing paradiddels in tripplets and so on. And he played Dog Boots:D Love that song.

[toteman2]

Since Virgil was brought brought back up, I thought I would share something I found.

Virg bringing da funk....http://cdbaby.com/mp3lofi/hoekstra-04.m3u

[Ian Ballard]

Yah i like to think there are 2 types of drummers. theres the type that sound good with whatever they play. Even the ost basic of beats. and then there is th drummers who are Extremely technical. They may not sound as nice, but they can play the most techincal beats and polyrythms! Virgil is one of these! Dont get me wrong, I love both styles!

I certainly don't share your oversimplified and polar opinion there. Is there no gray area? Can there not be "good feel" drummers who CAN play extremely technically? Can there not be technical drummers who can 'bring da funk'? Are there not punk and rock drummers who are unable to do either?

[michael drums]

It got deleted because of your rather shall we say, unnegotiable nature dib da.


dib da? Hey Mediocrefuncky? I think you got me confused with another poster. I have seen some of his posts, but that ain't me. Cya...Play On!!

Oh...Ya got anything on Virgil?

[michael drums]

I certainly don't share your oversimplified and polar opinion there. Is there no gray area? Can there not be "good feel" drummers who CAN play extremely technically? Can there not be technical drummers who can 'bring da funk'? Are there not punk and rock drummers who are unable to do either?


Great point, Ian! You read my mind. Yes, there are technical drummers who can "bring da funk". Ones' name is Virgil Donati. Thanks and Play On!

[ILikeMacs]

Virgil definitely has musicality, I think its just he's so out there and advanced, many people cant comprehend whats going on, or have the inclinitaion to want to know. so then it gets back to what you consider musical and bla bla

but yeah virgil has the chops and the music in my opinion.

[h3r3tic]

his materclasses rule, I´ve learned a lot from through his videos
He´s my favourite drummer because he´s the drummer that has EVERYTHING!
He´s like the new Buddy Rich
Go Virgil! :)

[Mezzair]

After reading this, I think people who are critics of Virgil Donati for having no soul, is to check out his work with Soul SirkUS. To prove he does have a groove and feel.

[Morgenthaler]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QwdGPhbyZk

This might help also. The quality isn't too good, but you'll get the idea for sure!
Those who are settled on hating him will do that no matter what you show to them.
For the rest of you, enjoy!

[Womble]

This might help also. The quality isn't too good, but you'll get the idea for sure! Those who are settled on hating him will do that no matter what you show to them. For the rest of you, enjoy!

There's this irritating, persistent assumption that anyone who dislikes Virgil's playing does so for a reason other than that they have heard lots of his playing and think it's crap: "it must be because you don't understand what he's doing; you think it's cool to hate famous drummers; you're jealous"...the list goes on. People who hold this assumption apparently never stop to ask themselves why these same 'Virgil hataz" love Tony, Elvin, Vinnie. These three guys were or are also famous, also pushed the drumming envelope, also played complex material. Nor do they seem seem to ask themselves why a number of intelligent and experienced musicians can articulate just why Virgil is so grossly overrated.

What you've posted here is actually one of the better clips of Virgil I've seen. It's better because it's a pop gig where his passion for pointlessly complex patters which sound like excrement and make no musical sense is reigned in by an MD who knows what the job calls for, but what he demonstrates here is nothing to make him stand out from the huge number of other professional drummers who make their living playing similar gigs.

If you think this Australian Idol-esque gig is a demonstration of a drummer with soul, my advice is: don't finish that whole tub of Haagen-Daaz. I know he dumped you and I know it hurts, but it'll only go straight on your hips, and how are you going to attract a new guy looking like that?

[Morgenthaler]

OK, what you call pointless complex patterns, I would probably call something different, but in any case, you pretty much proved my point:
Those who are settled on hating him will do that no matter what you show to them.

It all comes down to a matter of taste, and luckily, that can never be debated.
You don't like him, fine. Lots do. This clip was for them...

[Drum-Head]

Womble,


I'm one of those who admire Virgil and think he is a great drummer. However, I do share your opinion about the "You're just a jealous hater unable to understand his playing" quote. In some cases it is a true statement, but most of the time it's an ready-made answer that's very annoying to read or hear.

I'd also like to say that I happily accept the fact that others may not like his playing. That's perfectly fine with me and I'd be the first to tell another "Virgil fan" to let people live their own tastes. All that is being asked in return is respect for Virgil as a drummer and a person, just as due to Vinnie or any other great out there no matter one's tastes.


Peace out,
Christopher.

[NUTHA JASON]

some good responses. for my part i think virgil is interesting but i would not buy the CDs, fascinating but i would not go to all the clinics, amazing but i would not want lessons from him (actually i would but only a few simple things - complex to me but he would be very bored).

it is incredible what he can do both in speed and convoluted time but it does sound like drums falling off a cliff and down a scree slope... if that is music to you - fine. blast beats can sound like lawn mowers. these things exsist and some people get off on them. not me and i would guess not the vast majority of folks in the world. but who wants to always go with the flow? i feel a little pity for anyone who feels that this is the pinnacle of drumming achievement but that's their bag.

i like when virgil tells you what he's about to do and then does it super fast and neat. but that can only hold my attention for a while. i can listen to billy ward drumming all day or run the same steely dan track for weeks on end in my car or wash dishes to buddy rich 'mercy mercy' every night of the week. for virgil i have time for maybe one little clinic every year or two (and even then i switched off in the second half) ... but, that's just me. and probably a few others.

[Splinter]

I agree with you Nutha Jason, he is great technically, but isn't that good a musician and not great at accompanying other musicians. A high "robot-factor" and it seems a little narcisisstic to override the musicians with the patterns he does.

and probably a few others.
Haha, definantly.

Nutha Jason, I see you're an admin here. All of the threads are backwards... First post on the last page and vice versa... any clues?

[NUTHA JASON]

in your user CP go to edit options and scroll down to display options and select linear oldest first mode.

j

[Splinter]

Ah, I see. Thank you.

[Womble]

Why, Wy? I was looking forward to that argument. Anyway, you're too late I saw what you wrote. I'll drag you back in here, don't you worry :)

[NUTHA JASON]

pity wy. you could really give us some insight into his philosophy etc. i would be guessing, but i think virgil knows he's not mainstream and that his drumming doesn't suit everybody. i would think he's fine with that...he knows what he does is incredible.

as i stated much earlier in this thread. it is nonsense to believe that virgil cannot do a great job on a simple (or simpler) drum beat...that's like saying someone who walked to the north pole is going to struggle walking down to the shops. its just that virgil prefers the long frozen wasteland hikes while at most i'm a ben nevis man.

i think its down to taste and style. virgil's taste in drums just isn't mine ...though...having said that, i have not i admit really sought his music out and given it a fair listen. but from the clinic i attended and the clips i've seen i know that, like with bozzio, i am amazed but not enduringly interested. if that makes sense.

[Aidan]

Allan Holdsworth
Jeff Richman
Frank Gambale
Bunny Brunel
Mitch Forman
Mick Jagger
Dave Stewart
Brett Garsed
Steve Vai
Billy Sheehan
Dean Taba
Steve Weingart
Branford Marsalis
Scott Hendersen
Gary Willis
Tony Macalpine
Tina Arena
Mike Keneally
Jon Stevens
Rufus Philpot
Vivien Lalu
Neal Schon
Marco Mendoza

Just a SMALL list of the incredibly diverse musicians Virg has and still works with. This list does not even include most of the pop/rock/r&b artists that Virg worked with many years ago. Some still do not get it? What you see at a clinic is not representative of what CERTAIN artists are capable of doing. For some maybe not for Virg and other drummers.
Why do the MAJORITY of guys go to see Virg in clinic. Very simple to see what elevates him vastly over most drummers, outrageous technique and concepts, simple as that. He is not there to sound like Bernard Purdie or Carlos Vega. He knows ait and most in attendance obviously know it. Some still do not want to get that fact. But make no mistake
he can and does play pretty much anyway he wants to. Again not that it matters a great deal to him. Who knows how much it matters.

He can play great r&b/pop with Tina Arena and he can play heavy fast instrumental Ala Steve Vai, he can do the very complex progressive rock/fusion of Planet X and he can lay down simple and straight forward pop tracks for a movie score with Jagger and Stewart and he can go to India as of recent and tear it up with Brunel, Gambale and Mitch Forman an incredible fusion band. THAT is reality not what some would like reality to be for Virgil Donati. Oh and by the way he is doing a 4 month stadium tour in Europe with some really popular French artist this spring and summer. The guy stays so busy his head is spinning. For a guy who cannot groove and only can do extreme clinics he has seemed to build a resume that far surpasses even most of the so called groove drummers who do not play with half the artists and have half the gigs that Virg has. My gosh the guy constantly has half a dozen projects he is working with in the backdrop that nobody knows about.
Oh well I think he is too busy making great music with great musicians to worry about what some guys who obviously need to practice and get more work and with not even 10% of his past and current resume think of his ability.

[yves]

I would have to agree with Aidan that Virgil can groove and groove very well.
Check out the Tina Arena stuff....

Also, I guess he's best know for the more complicated playing. He may actually enjoy playing it too.. in which case there's really nothing wrong with it.

I have varied musical taste. Sometimes I'm in the mood to listen to Planet X or Virgil's solo albums... sometimes, it's King's X, sometimes it's Buddy Rich, sometimes it's Chick Corea, sometimes it's the Black Crowes, sometimes it's classical music, sometimes it's The Police, sometimes it's Led Zepplin, sometimes it's Jamiroquai.....etc... (lot's more)

I read through some of the thread.... and some of it seems more like a critique of a musical style... maybe some people don't like that style of music. That's great.

Music is about personal taste, I'm not sure if that gets forgotten from time to time.

If anyone wants to hear a different side of Virgil's playing, check out the toned down gigs.

[Morgenthaler]

For those of you who might be interested:
Virgil Donati Double DVD out soon (http://www.virgildonati.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=5768)

Virgil has collected a handful of his most fiery performances from the last few years. They will be available as a double dvd set from 15th of March over at www.virgildonati.com

The main feature, the Stocholm performance will be in 5.1 surround sound.
Enjoy!
http://www.virgildonati.com/images/news-swedenback05.jpg

[mikkeydee]

i ve spent two days with virgil in 2004 during his clinic tour in China for interpretation. been a big fan for yrs.(also mangini's in 2002)

now the most memorable part is the most basical part-- watch that video showing single stroke roll in his website, highlights motreal fest~~~ crazy.
imagine what gadd will response to that "how about a single stroke roll" ~~
"humm, i dont think it's the most important thing for speed"

virgil never attend WFD like mangini did, but i m sure he does put a lot effort on that and don wanna be behind ~~

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Hmmm... yes - Virgil is the Buddy Rich of our time (in the sense that he does things which seem to be impossible to imitate - or even to comprehend). However, in terms of pure musical genius, there's no comparison between them. Buddy had hands like butterflies... sooo smooth, his phrasing qualities daily stand the test of time (as we can see as far as enthusiastic youtube.com comments go...).

Virgil's feet revolution is unbelievable; Buddy's hand techniques, total smoothness in his single strokes and buzz rolls (and so forth) are unmatched. Both are great in my book, but no one beats buddy as far as spontaneous creativity goes - not just that, he actually had all the technical proficiency needed to execute whatever he might have though at any given moment. Virgil is unbelievable, but Buddy was a genius. That's my understanding on the subject (and Planet X totally kills, definitely).

[Raymond Bloom]

Hmmm... yes - Virgil is the Buddy Rich of our time (in the sense that he does things which seem to be impossible to imitate - or even to comprehend). However, in terms of pure musical genius, there's no comparison between them. Buddy had hands like butterflies... sooo smooth, his phrasing qualities daily stand the test of time (as we can see as far as enthusiastic youtube.com comments go...).

Virgil's feet revolution is unbelievable; Buddy's hand techniques, total smoothness in his single strokes and buzz rolls (and so forth) are unmatched. Both are great in my book, but no one beats buddy as far as spontaneous creativity goes - not just that, he actually had all the technical proficiency needed to execute whatever he might have though at any given moment. Virgil is unbelievable, but Buddy was a genius. That's my understanding on the subject (and Planet X totally kills, definitely).

I like this quote:

I think Buddy would be knocked out of his seat by the technical prowess of someone like Thomas Lang or Vinnie Colaiuta (insert Virgil Donati here etc edited). Bellson and Chapin are two living old cats who know that the bar has been raised. Go ask them.

Buddy was great, but sometimes people like to idolize him too much

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

I like this quote:



Buddy was great, but sometimes people like to idolize him too much

The funny thing is that it was Mr. Bellson himself who once stated that "a hundred years will pass until people start to understand what he (Buddy) was doing...".

I can speak from all the videos I saw from him. I'm talking from an experienced point of view. I've experienced many videos from Virgil and Buddy, and I personally always stay with the later. Buddy was smooth like butter. If you have the chance, I recommend you to try to understand his hand rudiments in his "Buddy Rich 1970" video... that was a work of a Genius - in MY understanding of what I've heard and saw in that video (and so many others of him...).

I truely believe that Buddy deserves all the enthusiastic praise he oftenly gets - but, again, that's just my perception of what I saw and listened to. With that said, there's possibly no doubt that, in some areas, the bar has been raised to sky-levels beyong what Buddy's single bass pedal could possibly do and create/achieve. Yes. There's no doubt at all.

I really like to emphasize what really deserves to be (imo); in this sense, Buddy's hands and genius once upon a drumset soloing are still unmatched (for me), as much as are Virgil's magnificent feet. :]

[Melvin]

Virgil Donati is by far the best drummer I've seen. Many people say that he has no feel, but I think they're wrong, just download some videos of Virgil grooving instead of the typical drumsolo videos everyone downloads and you will see that Virgil can groove extremely well. In the technical aspect he is the best of the best, and if you want to learn a thing or two just watch some online masterclasses on his site.

Virgil never stops to amaze me, his control, power, speed, coordination is way over the leagues. I believe that many future generation will be heavily influenced by this great drummer.

[Red Sky Drummer]

Ash, you are a drummer who has found a comfort zone and settled.

To restart this thread, it was a search for the "New Buddy", which if you ask me, is a fast set of rudimentary hands. Buddy never had any startling foot work. He had Moeller down before drummers even really knew to learn it. He inspired many of todays drummers to be who they are, but he was in a time where things were swing, jazz, or big band.

These genres aren't too different.

Comparing a fast jazz to fast prog metal is flat out mind boggling.

Virgil Donati, is a better drummer. There is no way around it. He had Buddy as an influence and in no way has his hands, but his foot work along with his hands takes many inspirations and alot more hard work and coordination. Virgil has this unfair advantage.

No, you can't tap your feet to his music and no, he's not a showman.

What you guys are looking for is Mike Mangini's hands on a guy who has little foot knowledge.

So I say todays Buddy Rich is Jeff Queens behind the set. Drumcorp speed, rudiment, and perfection with who knows how much footwork.

Overall, drummers of today inspire different crowds of drummers. This little battle to us means nothing to a Greenday/Wolfmother fan, because they listen to generic beats and melodies. We have Kenny Aronoff to fill those venues.

To Jazz people today, Dave Weckl is the first to mind.
Stanton Moore in Funk, well, New Orleans Jazz, but I'd say he's pretty funky.
Jojo Mayer is all over the European techno scene?
Thomas Haake, Mike Portnoy, etc. own the "musical" prog.

Back then, there was Buddy, then maybe Ringo... who doesn't compare to anyone on this list at all. He inspired with the Beatles, but should have gotten inspired by Buddy, because his technique etc isn't too good.

Lang, Mangini, and Donati are the guys who get paid by drummers to be better then us. Frankly, I don't sit down and say "Lets listen to a 19:16 time signature", but wow am I impressed to know somebody figured it out. Mangini's solos lose a musicality, but when I did the one handed snare roll, non-drummers thought it was cool. I wish I could do a double stroke roll with my feet, so I'm working on it, thanks Virgil. I also wish I had Buddy's hands.

I've rambled on long enough,
-Creez

[Aidan]

There is FAR more to having great hands then being rudimentally impressive on the snare. Buddy had insane hands but his diversity with his hands does not blow me away at all. I have Virgil's new dvd and he is doing things with his hands utilizing the WHOLE kit that I have never seen anyone pull off. Virgil's hands are FAR better then what some think. The dexterity, the speed, the power, endurance, and precision that it takes to pull off what he does with his hands is astounding. From top to bottom technically he is the most advanced IMO period. Virgil has the hands and the feet and the insane interdependence and he grooves his Ass off. It might not be the music one likes but he spends 90% of the time laying down insane grooves instead of blowing chops. He is far more these days into extreme rhythm then showing how many licks he can throw in over 4 bars. I hear far more guys blowing needless and repetitive chops in the song context then Virg ever has. He would rather let his bandmates shred while he is modulating and subdividing time and displacing the beat. His clinics are not what he does on record. People should know his main influence on his writing/drumming is actually classical and what he does comes from a source having a strong harmonic influence.

[Raymond Bloom]

To Jazz people today, Dave Weckl is the first to mind.
Stanton Moore in Funk, well, New Orleans Jazz, but I'd say he's pretty funky.
Jojo Mayer is all over the European techno scene?
Thomas Haake, Mike Portnoy, etc. own the "musical" prog.
Dave Weckl and jazz? He's all about fusion, latin-fusion type of music, but by no means jazz!
Jeff Hamilton, Peter Erskine, Brian Blade etc those are some brilliant jazz cats!
Jojo Mayer is top notch if you talk about modern music, wheteher hip-hop, d'n'b, techno, r'n'b, also, he's an awsome jazz drummer, just check out his playing with Depart http://youtube.com/watch?v=OPQVtIz3zkE

also, I love those two pics, a teacher and his pupil :-)

[katman]

Virgil is coming to South Africa next month for a drum clinic. Should be pretty damn good. Can't wait.

[hateplow]

Virgil Donati is not from this planet. He is in his own league when it comes to creativity, innovation and interdependence. He has mastered the drum solo, IMO.
He also has tremendous groove, which people tend to overlook because of his ridiculous time signatures. His clinics are the most entertaining I've ever seen, it's like a freak show.

[spartacus1989]

Virgil Donati has got amazing technique and extrudinary musical ability!

I love how he adapts to the bands he has worked with although I aint much a fan of his solos! (exept the one during 'Incantation - Steve Vai')

[katman]

His clinic last night was out of this world. I agree that his complex time signature work is not stuff I'll go out and buy or choose to listen to, but to see it in action is something else. I also love the way he breaks some of it down afterwards (and gets the audience to try some really simplified, slowed down versions) and then he speeds it up to show you where it could go. And that a complex kind of groove can actually emerge from all this madness. He's also got a great dry sense of humour and everyone left the venue totally entertained. And quite humbled by their new insights into independence.

[aydee]

To break time down and to stretch it, is something Indian percussionists have been doing for centuries...What Virgil is doing on the drumset is what people like Zakir Hussien & Tilok Gurtu were doing 20 years ago

check Zakir out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_XFE43cP_E&mode=related&search=

[toteman2]

To break time down and to stretch it, is something Indian percussionists have been doing for centuries...What Virgil is doing on the drumset is what people like Zakir Hussien & Tilok Gurtu were doing 20 years ago

check Zakir out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_XFE43cP_E&mode=related&search=

Though the video was pretty cool, I fail to see how this relates to Virgil in anyway, or the things he's done, or is currently doing.

And what Zakir, and Tilok were doing has been going on for a lot more than 20 years.

[aydee]

[quote=toteman2;351307]Though the video was pretty cool, I fail to see how this relates to Virgil in anyway, or the things he's done, or is currently doing.

He is subdividing rhythms and doing polyrhythmic figures by accenting the un-obvious ( e.g.the 2 or the 4) , a 5/4 pattern with his feet under a 4/4 with his hands. If the 1 is hidden, or shifting over the course of many bars, this creates some incredible textures.

I think Thomas Lang and Steve Smith are exploring the same areas too. A time signature only means where a note is accented, or where a pattern begins to repeat itself.

Indian percussion principles have always operated on similar theories. Rhythms are based on the accented notes, or groupings of accented notes.instead of just a meter. You could almost look at them as a melodic phrase.

You are right on about all this being much older than Zakir and Trilok, but these are the guys who have brought this music to the world stage which, in my opinion, is inspiring drumset players to delve into this universe, really for the first time.

I

[Citizen Insane]

I can't say I like Virgil donati, I find his drumming very mechanical and boring, and constant doublebass in solo's gets to me after awhile. I tried really hard to get into him, but he just isn't my type of drummer.

[Dr_Funky]

Easily one of my favorite drummers, and he's Australian too!

The only way to match Virgil Donati's technique is to wander the desert for 30 years and take up yoga.

[Mezzair]

I've been following Virgil for over a year or so now, I've checked out his solo stuff, purchased his DVD and his play along book, which are all fantastic. Despite is amazing skills, I still cannot stop watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8zbqhIORJE

I can't believe how awesome and simple that is. It's amazing that Virgil can do all this complicated stuff, but when it comes down to pure playing, he's awesome at the simple stuff.

I think some people tend to miss that out and try and progress on to advanced stuff with out mastering the simple concepts.

[goughy]

My fav virgil clip is from years ago, I think it was the Australian Aria Awards. Melissa Etheridge performed 'Like the Way I do' with artists Jack Jones (guitar) and Virgil Donati from Aussie band Southern Sons, and Gary Gary Beers from INXS on bass. It was just standout pure rock and I luv luv luv luv luv it! I have it on a video cassette somewhere with no way to play it.

This is where I first learnt of Virgil D.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwW3nFmdAs8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNtdTTaphpM

I never saw them live in Aus, but they were pretty big in their day. I remember talking to one of the music shop owners in town and he was telling me a heap of drummers went down to a show and came home disappointed because it didn't turn into the 'virgil donati show' and he just played for the music. I thought that was pretty funny :)

[Drum-Head]

I've been following Virgil for over a year or so now, I've checked out his solo stuff, purchased his DVD and his play along book, which are all fantastic. Despite is amazing skills, I still cannot stop watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8zbqhIORJE

I can't believe how awesome and simple that is. It's amazing that Virgil can do all this complicated stuff, but when it comes down to pure playing, he's awesome at the simple stuff.

I think some people tend to miss that out and try and progress on to advanced stuff with out mastering the simple concepts.

Although that is some awesome groovery he displays in that vid with Soul Sirkus (I recommend the album with Virgil on it if you wan to hear him play some nice "normal" Rock music), I would not call that simple. He is integrating some complicated rhythmic tricks in that 4/4 groove.

[Mezzair]

Although that is some awesome groovery he displays in that vid with Soul Sirkus (I recommend the album with Virgil on it if you wan to hear him play some nice "normal" Rock music), I would not call that simple. He is integrating some complicated rhythmic tricks in that 4/4 groove.

Maybe I over estimated the 'simple' part of that :) It is however refreshing for someone to think outside of the box when it comes to these things.

[Matt-a-tat-tat]

I can't say I like Virgil donati, I find his drumming very mechanical and boring, and constant doublebass in solo's gets to me after awhile. I tried really hard to get into him, but he just isn't my type of drummer.

I agree with the double bass drum part. Drum solos usually bore me to tears but when they're musical: check out Steve Smith's solo in the Drummer World grooves. Now that's a solo. Virgil's sticking is WAY more interesting than the double bass stuff. I don't know, I kinda dislike most double bass stuff and double pedal stuff because it's usually just RLRLRLRLRLRLR as fast as possible. I don't care for Ray Herrera too much but that guy can play some very even and fast triplet patterns and what not. Anyway, I like Virgil's playing but it does appear to be sort of mechanical and sometimes kind of on the verge of sloppy.

[Drum-Head]

I like Virgil's playing but it does appear to be sort of mechanical and sometimes kind of on the verge of sloppy.

Mechanical yet sloppy? Isn't that a bit contradicting? And moreover the words "sloppy" and "Virgil Donati" don't belong in the same phrase. Like him or not that is entirely up to one's personal tastes but if there is one think you can't say about Virgil it's that he's sloppy.

[Matt-a-tat-tat]

Mechanical yet sloppy? Isn't that a bit contradicting? And moreover the words "sloppy" and "Virgil Donati" don't belong in the same phrase. Like him or not that is entirely up to one's personal tastes but if there is one think you can't say about Virgil it's that he's sloppy.

I said SOMETIMES KIND OF ON THE VERGE of being sloppy. that's a far cry from: Virgil Donati's always sloppy. I think a machine can be sloppy. would you trust a robot in a car factory to change a baby's diaper? a mecanical device can sometimes be built NOT to display tender nuances and so forth. I like Virgil's drumming a lot. but nobody's beyond criticism.

[Mezzair]

Could someone explain the phrase (is to) 'Mechanical'? I presume it's when someone is relying to much on rudiments?

[Matt-a-tat-tat]

You know like a machine. Peart gets called a robot or too mechanical all the time because he never plays behind the beat and what not and lacks subtlety (which I disagree with). perhaps saying Virgil is too mechanical isn't quite right. It's not so much about rudiments I guess but more about playing very technical things all the time and very precisely like a machine, not a human? ah, what do i know, I'm at work and trying not to get caught messing around on here.

[Drum-Head]

I said SOMETIMES KIND OF ON THE VERGE of being sloppy. that's a far cry from: Virgil Donati's always sloppy. I think a machine can be sloppy. would you trust a robot in a car factory to change a baby's diaper? a mecanical device can sometimes be built NOT to display tender nuances and so forth. I like Virgil's drumming a lot. but nobody's beyond criticism.

I never said Virgil was beyond criticism. I know that for a lot of people his playing comes off as stale... That is their feeling towards his drumming and that perfectly fine. But aside that subjectivity there is a certain objectivity when talking about the drums and music. My point is simply that Virgil is one of the most solid drummers around. His whole philosophy/approach is based upon the perfection execution of rhythms and he is flawless in that domain. That is what made Virgil's popularity in the first place."Semetimes kind of the verge" is an expression that I do not really understand, and I do not understand the analogy with a robot changing a diaper. Where does that relate with the execution of rhythms?

I hope you're not taking this the wrong way. I'm not yelling or anything. So I hope I'm not coming off as so. It's just that I have been following Virgil for many years and really, he is nowhere near sloppy, not even on the verge of it.

[Matt-a-tat-tat]

I never said Virgil was beyond criticism. I know that for a lot of people his playing comes off as stale... That is their feeling towards his drumming and that perfectly fine. But aside that subjectivity there is a certain objectivity when talking about the drums and music. My point is simply that Virgil is one of the most solid drummers around. His whole philosophy/approach is based upon the perfection execution of rhythms and he is flawless in that domain. That is what made Virgil's popularity in the first place."Semetimes kind of the verge" is an expression that I do not really understand, and I do not understand the analogy with a robot changing a diaper. Where does that relate with the execution of rhythms?

I hope you're not taking this the wrong way. I'm not yelling or anything. So I hope I'm not coming off as so. It's just that I have been following Virgil for many years and really, he is nowhere near sloppy, not even on the verge of it.


No worries mate. The diaper changing robot is in response to the claim that a mechanical system cannot be sloppy. Whereas a car building robot is precise in the welds or whatever is required of it to build a gigantic car or truck it lacks the subtlety required to change a baby's diaper. You said you didn't understand mechanical and sloppy, that that was contradiction. Just a non-drumming related side. Anyway I get what you mean about Virgil. He's good, really good. If I could play half that good I'd be satisfied. As far as his being on the verge of sloppiness claim, I've heard that mentioned a couple times. And I really do sense that in some of the things I've seen him do, not the totality of his playing. As a matter of fact, it wasn't until someone else said he seemed on the verge of sloppiness or being out of control that I noticed this.

[Drum-Head]

No worries mate. The diaper changing robot is in response to the claim that a mechanical system cannot be sloppy. Whereas a car building robot is precise in the welds or whatever is required of it to build a gigantic car or truck it lacks the subtlety required to change a baby's diaper. You said you didn't understand mechanical and sloppy, that that was contradiction. Just a non-drumming related side. Anyway I get what you mean about Virgil. He's good, really good. If I could play half that good I'd be satisfied. As far as his being on the verge of sloppiness claim, I've heard that mentioned a couple times. And I really do sense that in some of the things I've seen him do, not the totality of his playing. As a matter of fact, it wasn't until someone else said he seemed on the verge of sloppiness or being out of control that I noticed this.

Well I don't understand your diaper analogy because it relates to a robot built to assemble cars with precision, doing a completely different task that it is not made to do at all. It's as if you're telling me that a very solid, precise drummer was sloppy fighting with a Katana. That's how I understood it. That being said I still have not witnessed Virgil getting - what I would consider as - sloppy... Maybe someday? That would make my day to say he messed something up lol!

[cheezruff]

Virgil is a cutting edge drummer, a visionary, a great writer, and can easily fit in to many musical situations and styles. I think he's one of the most futuristic musicians on the scene today.

[m1ck]

He's over-rated.... very over-rated.......

[Bernhard]

He's over-rated.... very over-rated.......

phantastic statement.

Bernhard

[Paiste 2002]

Hopefully m1ck was kidding.... otherwise that is instantly in the top 10 dumbest statements ever posted on DrummerWorld.

[Jeff Almeyda]

He's over-rated.... very over-rated.......

Yeah right, possibly the most advanced player on the planet is over-rated.

[aydee]

Who & where is this Rating Committee, and where can I write em?

[m1ck]

phantastic statement.

Bernhard

Bernhard at al,

I copied-and-pasted those exact words from someone else in another thread, just to see how he would respond to them here. I'm sorry, it was a trollish thing to do. I shouldn't post when I've been drinking.

I had raised the issue in the Portnoy thread about people who cry "over rated," basically asking where they get off. I saw the same member in this thread gushing over this particular drummer, and I wanted to see how he would react to his own words. I was bad.

For the record, Virgil is obviously a phenomenal drummer - a marvel to watch. I do not think he is "over rated" and frankly I would never say such a thing about any drummer, because I think that attitude reeks of immature arrogance. "My favorite drummer is better than your favorite drummer."

Perhaps it was reckless of me to try to make my point the way I did - maybe even sneaky. I'll behave myself in the future. Sorry, I didn't mean to cause any bad feelings.

[Bernhard]

Bernhard at al,

I copied-and-pasted those exact words from someone else in another thread, just to see how he would respond to them here. I'm sorry, it was a trollish thing to do. I shouldn't post when I've been drinking.

I had raised the issue in the Portnoy thread about people who cry "over rated," basically asking where they get off. I saw the same member in this thread gushing over this particular drummer, and I wanted to see how he would react to his own words. I was bad.

For the record, Virgil is obviously a phenomenal drummer - a marvel to watch. I do not think he is "over rated" and frankly I would never say such a thing about any drummer, because I think that attitude reeks of immature arrogance. "My favorite drummer is better than your favorite drummer."

Perhaps it was reckless of me to try to make my point the way I did - maybe even sneaky. I'll behave myself in the future. Sorry, I didn't mean to cause any bad feelings.

Hi M1ck: For me it's all good - Thanks for writing this and clarifying.

Bernhard

[m1ck]

Back onto the subject of Virgil Donati:

His technical proficiency is amazing, but when I watch him I wonder why he uses a traditional grip. It looks physically awkward for the style that he plays.

Perhaps this just goes to show that any particular grip is entirely irrelevant.

Any thoughts?

[crdirtRider856]

[QUOTE=m1ck;461358]Bernhard at al,

I. I shouldn't post when I've been drinking.QUOTE]

Been there and "NO" Bad dog!! What do we say?" "I m sorry master." Yeah, the day after usually makes you think-"Why did I do that?" I hate alcohol, but love it just the same. I just do not like not being in control of myself, therefore, I gave it up. Hope your all good Mick. Really!

[m1ck]

Ish alright, man. I love you and reshpect you. (hic)

[crdirtRider856]

LMAO!!! I am a bit serious though....Although I have noticed- Virgil sweats his ass off alot. Could it be?

[DixonDrums]

Virgil is a cutting edge drummer, a visionary, a great writer, and can easily fit in to many musical situations and styles. I think he's one of the most futuristic musicians on the scene today.

On the DVD of Steve Vai's "Live at the Astoria", Steve and his band joke about Virgil practicing all of the time (even after shows) but its that serious dedication that makes him soo deadly. He plays every now and then at The Baked Potato here in LA with the usual suspects (Tony McAlpine, Rufus Philpot, Steve Weingart etc) and its definitely something to behold!! I guess we're a bit lucky there's more than a few venues in the Studio City area that bring the chops our way.

[Morgenthaler]

I wonder why he uses a traditional grip.
Any thoughts?

Virgil grew up with a bunch of heroes playing trad. grip. Gadd, Buddy, Elvin Jones, to name a few. He chose to stick with that, even through hard rock.

Today he states (ands has done so several times) that objectively speaking, matched grip is
easier maintained, and recommendable in any way. He just sticks to trad. because that's the way he grew up playing, and he still likes it.

Best regards
Jeppe Morgenthaler
/virgildonati.com

[aydee]

Here are some pics I took of the man last month ( sorry phone cam), enjoy:

21246

21247

21248

21249

21250

[Swiss Matthias]

I just wanted to pop in and state that I'm a big big fan of Virgil and his playing. I believe I know most of his stuff, and I think his playing - (concerning technique and "his language") is just a whole world in itself.
I perfectly understand that there are people who just don't like his playing. But some of the stuff said about him or his playing makes me quite sad. I think you MAY somewhat bash a drummer who claims to be the best, or at least thinks of himself as a great great drummer, especially if he isn't:D. But never does Virgil say anything just near that - on the contrary, "After all those years I feel I've just scratched the surface" is my favourite quotes of his.

[cantstandyourfunk]

Question: How old are you? I ask because back when I was maybe eighteen, nineteen or so I used to think like this too. Drumming was still new, and I was exploring the world of virtuoso playing for the first time, etc etc. So each new amazing drummer I saw was pulling out these blazing chops, and I couldn't even imagine how you'd get to be able to play like that etc etc. Blew me away.

Flash forward a few years. Now when I see a solo like that it's a bit more like "double kick rudiments... check.... fast singles... check... oh look... a polyrhythm....". You see? After you see enough of that stuff it turns into a checklist and really stops being in any way exciting.

The way I see it, music is like a language. You try to express something through what you play, and if you're any good then the audience feels it. Now, imagine you're learning a new language - say you're not a native English speaker. Initially, if you see a book or article written by somebody and it uses lots of long words and complex sentences... you're impressed. You think... "Wow, this guy really knows all the grammar rules and he's got a huge vocabulary". Because all of that stuff looks so daunting and far away it makes you grant an automatic degree of respect and authority to what's being said. But once you get a better grasp of the language and reading becomes easier to you, you start to realise that simplicity is maybe a better way to get the message across. Look at George Orwell - the language is not that complicated, but it's amazingly good writing. Equally, there's many lousy writers like me - lots of long words, huge sentences, but actually not saying a whole lot for the amount they write. I can type real fast, but that's because it takes me ages to say something. I suspect George Orwell could have done this post in about three short sentences and said as much.

Imagine somebody making a speech. Are you more impressed by the guy who can talk so fast that you get a headache trying to keep up, or is the guy who speaks slowly, precisely and clearly for the same amount of time and gets the same amount said doing the better job as an orator? Sure, having precise ability to execute the physical movements to get the words out is important. But who cares if the content is just gibberish, being delivered with virtuosic speed and power?

So for me, I'm not automatically impressed by chops anymore. I work on them, but the more I work on them the more I realise that getting better on that front is just a matter of putting in more work. Once your hand technique is good enough you can make a whole lot of improvements while you're half asleep and not really paying attention - you just keep running the drills. I don't feel as proud of my technical achievements as I do of my musical ones, on the rare occasion that something cool turns up. For every fill I've done with big tom rolls, I'm usually more impressed on playback with the time I just did the same fill with one hi-hat accent and a syncopation in the bass drum. So my perception of soloing and virtuosic playing has changed accordingly as I've matured on the instrument. I'm hardly a good musician yet, but if I want to get there then the path from where I am now is probably not more technique, it's more understanding of structure, time and tone and how to build something communicative with that. In comparison to that, chops is really pretty easy to work on.

That's why there's no Olympic gold medal in music. WFD is a sport; not "music".
........
.......
.......
................

The Grammies, you say????? Ah, that's a popular choice award (or so they'd have us believe), but drummers don't run in it.

[Swiss Matthias]

Well, good post from you, finnhiggins, and I pretty much agree. (Just saw it now from the quote) But I don't think it has too much to do with Virgil Donati. Yeah he's got blistering chops and technique, and he is a polyrhythmic/ -metric monster, BUT he certainly does make music! He has no problems playing a steady rock beat in 4/4, and he does play the right thing at the right time. He is kind of like a jazz drummer in rock and fusion IMO. He may be popular onlythrough his drum clinics and alien solos to many, but there is much more to him!
Plus his groove is easily recognizable to me. I remember someone writing something like "Virgil Donati minus all his chops is a normal and boring drummer, unrecognizable like thousands of players". In that sense. Which I disagree strongly.

[SickRick]

Well, good post from you, finnhiggins, and I pretty much agree. (Just saw it now from the quote) But I don't think it has too much to do with Virgil Donati. Yeah he's got blistering chops and technique, and he is a polyrhythmic/ -metric monster, BUT he certainly does make music!

Matthias: This does not really have anything to do with this thread, but sadly, Finn Higgins passed away earlier this year. He probably was one of the most respected forum members due to his thought out and intelligent posts. You should definetely check out Finns post history, there is a ton of wisdom and knowledge to find.

What you said about Virgils groove abilitys - thats something that at least I don't really see. But that might be personal taste though.

[Swiss Matthias]

Oh, I didn't know, that's sad!! How old was he?

Well, it depends on what you mean with "groove". I meant, he has no problem keeping simple time, and playing easy and understandable stuff whilst being musical anyway.
But the "grooving" thing: I would never say Virgil doesn't groove or has no groove, but I perfectly understand some people don't dig his style. I myself have other favourite drummers who I love (among other things) because of their groove, like Gary Novak, Bill Stewart or Keith Carlock. Virgil really has that "machine-like" vibe to him actually, and his style, his "language" is quite a narrow path. There's so much one can play, a big huge world, and he does only a tiny little bit of it.
And maybe his time is almost too perfect sometimes...?
That being said, I'm still a fan of his playing.

[Morgenthaler]

Normally any official video would be posted on the virgildonati.com channel on YouTube for your viewing pleasure, but since this is a rather lenghty piece of footage, and I'd hate to cut more songs in half - than I have to, AND we haven't produced it ourselves, I just cut it into 3 pieces and uploaded it from my own video.google account.

Tina Arena clip 1:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...801788682473656

Tina Arena clip 2:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...802728905995369

Tina Arena clip 3:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...345735647359274

Enjoy.
__________________
Jeppe Morgenthaler
Virgildonati.com Moderator

[Swiss Matthias]

I'd like to quote the man himself here, think it fits quite well:

Modern Drummer (June 99): You spend hours every day practicing - don't you want to put it on display?
Virgil Donati: You know what? Not at all. I'm sure there are many people out there who have seen me play at clinics and thought, "Oh, he's a tech head." But I can guarantee you that there are people who have seen me on pop gigs who had no idea I can play the other thing. I can honestly say that I do not desire to play any more than the music requires.

And: "Technique is innocent. It doesn't know any better. It's how we use it that counts. That really comes down to the maturity, the understanding, and the ego of the individual."

Yeah!!

[Swiss Matthias]

Oh, and another one:

"That's an interesting point, that maybe I can't play outside of drum clinics. The thing is, I know I can. I'm not ashamed of saying that because I really didn't start doing many clinics until I moved here. Most of my career has been about playing with other musicians, getting out there on the road, in clubs, and in the studios. So I rest easy on that fact."
Virgil Donati

[trkdrmr]

His clinics are jaw dropping. The power, speed and chops he displays make you want to go home and practice until your fingers cramp. He is operating on the highest plane of dextarity and skill.

[Green and Mean]

Virgil Donati is a Hero for me - his dedication is something what blows my mind.

[trysthedrummer]

A great inspiration to me, one I look upon. I know in myself I will never reach that level as I started when I was 12 (compared to him at about 3) but it gives me more determination everyday to practice. This goes for Gavin Harrison too, 2 of my favourite drummers, and very both different.

What got me into Donati was his extroadinary footwork, it's absolutely crazy what he can do overpla patterns with his hands on top.

This is one of my favourite bits I've found, doing inverted doubles with a great groove over it at 0:47

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I44OaOWYmQs

[Doug Masters]

Virgil is one of those guys who I could watch all day but can't listen to in the car. I just don't dig the whole prog thing like Planet X. That being said, his work on Soul Sirkus is great rock drumming.

Say what you want about him...he inspires me to practice and get better. Isn't that what its all about?

[trysthedrummer]

Ah no, I listen to Planet X in the car! All of his works including his solo album and Derek Sherinians Planet X.

Get it whacked up loud, everyone freaks out as there is no hardhouse anthems pumping through the speakers!! :D

[Swiss Matthias]

Guys, if you don't know it, all of you listen to (and buy) On The Virg!!! This is the ultimate hippest recording Virgil has ever appeared on IMO!

http://www.audiophileimports.com/shop/product.php?productid=21883&cat=0&page=1

[trysthedrummer]

Definitely!! Although I prefer the recent version(s!) of Alien Hip Hop.

[Morgenthaler]

Hi all

Here's a free sample from Virgil's upcoming Double Bass Drum Freedom Book:

http://www.virgildonati.com/articles/DBfreedom_sample.pdf

Enjoy!

[deltadrummer1]

No offense, but I don't think speed is the issue it's feel and showmanship, Feel being something that Virgil Lacks. I think that speed is something that can be mstered easier these days... look at the WFD competitions you got guys who you have never heard of scoring pretty high in the speed category. The drummers mentioned above have speed.

Your take on speed is right on the money.. but saying that Virgil Donati lacks feel is a ridiculous statement. If you judge all of his work, then you should see that somewhere down the line that Virgil has feel.

[Swiss Matthias]

Someone claiming either Virgil is only about speed (or about speed at all) or he lacks feel or doesn't groove just can't be taken serious in a discussion, period. At this level musically spoken it's all about taste, and technically spoken he is definitely top notch :D!