Virgil Donati

[Adam]

In terms of being so far ahead of the race, I would definetly say that Virgil Donati is the Buddy Rich of the modern age. I know this is a bold statement, and I mean it in respects to Buddy Rich, but the thing is as time goes on the drummers are getting better and better and it's slightly niaeve to keep looking back at what HAPPENED when so many new innovations and techniques are happening NOW. That's not to say we shouldn't look back, and keep in mind this IS just my opinion, but I think someone like Virgil, who is the best example of dedication, is leagues beyond anyone else. Guys say he overplays, but I would almost PROMISE you that tons of guys said the same thing about Buddy, and we've even seen it with Weckl, and Coliauta in their time.

Now the question is who's the next Virgil Donati

And I would really rather not make this a huge flame war, and I'm pretty sure I came off too opinionated, so if this thread turns out to be a bad Idea it should probably be deleted.

[toteman2]

I'll put it this way...Out of everything I've ever been exposed to in drumming (and I've been exposed to alot, drumming is a huge part of my life), past and present Virgil Donati has amazed me the most...Has has everthing i would want in my drumming, a true Master of every phase of drumming...This is my OPINION, and in no way should this be taken as fact...The things he is doing never seemed possible before, and I've never heard so many proffesionals speak so high of one drummer...Quite simply THE MAN!

[Thinshells]

Donati: Not much swing/groove, technical, master of sight reading, highly disciplined/learned musician. Same can be said of Thomas Lang and Marco Minnemann.

Rich: Can't read, can swing, prodigy, self-taught

Similarities: Speed, almost total ambidexterity, mastery of instrument

There are some similarities.

[Sticktrick]

There is another thread for this already.

Buddy Rich could read. And it is an insultion for him to be compared to Donati. If you do that, you just don´t seem to know, what Buddy was all about: Feel

[finnhiggins]

I think a major difference is that I've never seen any video of Buddy playing something that's arguably just plain bad. About 50% of any given Donati video I've seen has seemed uncertain, not quite "cooked" yet, and often very mathematical. It kind of sounds like he's worked out a part on paper then learned to play it, but it's not quite something he's totally in control of yet - certainly not something he's making a musical choice about. The only time he seems truly comfortable is when he dives off into blazing chops, which he does with alarming regularity. Every time he comes back to one of his opposing meter grooves it just sounds forced - like he only learned the groove as an excuse to play the fills. Of the guys I've seen doing this stuff, I like his approach the least. Thomas Lang wipes the floor with him, and he's not really my cup of tea either.

I don't get why people think he has such great technique, too. He strikes me more as somebody who achieves results in spite of his hand technique than because of it, look at the way he kills the rebound on his toms strokes!

[Thinshells]

There is another thread for this already.

Buddy Rich could read. And it is an insultion for him to be compared to Donati. If you do that, you just don´t seem to know, what Buddy was all about: Feel

According to "Traps the drum wonder" By Mel Torme, and the Buddy Rich DVD I have, both say Buddy didn't read music. He played by ear.

[Mitzos]

buddy, my thinkin is that its just his style of playin, when hes playin his grooves hes probably deep in thought due to there complexity. so when he is able to get into his chops and soloing it requires less concentration and he feels more comfortable . as well thomas lang is a drumming genius. like virgil he amazes me. but ur rite he looks alot more comfortable playing his drums. (compared to virgil)

[NUTHA JASON]

i've said it before. comparing drummers is like comparing painters. it only really makes sense to compare contemporaries within broadly defined genres. virgil has indirectly or directly benefitted from the exsistence of buddy. as newton said: he has risen to new heights because he climbed on the shoulders of giants.

compare virgil to thomas lang.
compare buddy to gene krupa or ed shaugnessy.
that's fair.

as for the whole premise for this thread. i don't think there can be a single 'buddy rich' in our time. the feild is way to broad to make such a sweeping statement. aren't dennis, bozzio, lang, etc etc etc the buddy's of our time? i think guys like buddy and krupa were the first super star drummers. now there are literally hundereds.

j

[Sticktrick]

OK maybe your right about the reading. I thought as a big band drummer he had to read a lot, cause thats standard. Also I know the drummer of his band very well since I took lessons with him (Tony Insalaco - great guy and great drummer). He can read about anything at sight and said he learned that in buddys band. (you have to know that buddy was the leader of the band and didn´t play the drums himself on all tunes. he would usually have someone else play and only come up to solo). So maybe he could read, but he didn´t do it because he had such a good memory that he could easily remember all the hits.

Still my point that the comparison is an insultion (big time) is untouched by that.

[Thinshells]

OK maybe your right about the reading. I thought as a big band drummer he had to read a lot, cause thats standard. Also I know the drummer of his band very well since I took lessons with him (Tony Insalaco - great guy and great drummer). He can read about anything at sight and said he learned that in buddys band. (you have to know that buddy was the leader of the band and didn´t play the drums himself on all tunes. he would usually have someone else play and only come up to solo). So maybe he could read, but he didn´t do it because he had such a good memory that he could easily remember all the hits.

Still my point that the comparison is an insultion (big time) is untouched by that.

As far as I could tell from watching him and reading about him, he had a photographic memory for music and a incomperable feel. There are a few tunes that he really overdid it, burying the tune under too much drumwork. (IE Birdland)

But it's not an insult to compare them. As Nutha Jason pointed out, it's like comparing painters. Both masters of thier own genre. Claude Monet was no Rembrandt, and vice versa.

[Superlow]

I don't think there is much to compare in my opinion. Donati has no charisma as a person or as a drummer. I think more people can identitfy with Buddy because he was a showman. I feel that Buddy wasn't out to conquer the drums and play drum paterns at rediculous BPM and such. Buddy was interested at entertaining a crowd his entertainment was his instrument. He could entertain nondrummers. I find Virgil's appeal more to musicians . Also I find some of the music that Virgil plays is overproduced and out right boring. I can listen to big bands. I find it hard to listen to a bunch of virutosos noodling around personally. Yes they are good musicians but it seems they only make music that doesn't appeal to the masses.

[fkleiner]

nobody knows virgil donati (speaking of the people as a whole), and that's cuz he takes crazy ass, difficult, near impossible stunts that do not for the most part contribute to music (speaking of music as a whole).

buddy rich was heavily invovled in contributing to music, and it just so happens that his technical proficiency communicated rhythm and feel. when he played drums, he could lay back and have even a drummer's ear listen to other instruments. but when he started to swing, or just plain rip it up, you would see everyone's heads bobbing (and of course mouths dropping).

virgil is a breathtaking drummer that deserves a considerable amount of respect. you can say he's mastered the drums. but ultimately the only people who will enjoy him are the ones who are intrigued by technical proficiency, and those people most likely are technically proficient to some degree themselves.

i dunno, there's no right or wrong to this issue of comparison. my opinion is that buddy rich not only was a virtuoso but a great musician .

as for today's buddy rich? nobody grooves as uniquely and as heavily today as zach hill (of hella). he's probably in the same boat as virgil donati (b/c he will never become popular, the music is just too much for most people)... but his tecnicality is extremely and subtly connected to the music around him. he cannot read music, never took a lesson, is in his mid 20's, yet will amaze and entertain, as buddy rich did, any body who is there watching him.

of course as always everybody reading this will look over my ulterior motive (trying to introduce you all to a very new prodigy, unlike any other drummer), and shoot right to whether or not i'm gonna piss them off by my stance on this issue... just go off on a limb and check out someone who could very well change your whole perspective of the possibilities of drumming.

[Clark]

No way. I know this whole thing isn't fair but I have to respond. These drummers are VERY different. Donati plays COMPLEX patterns and does not play with the swing
of a Buddy Rich. Point blank: Buddy had more control, speed, fire, etc....
Nothing against Virgil but there is no comparison.

[Bonzo]

nobody knows virgil donati (speaking of the people as a whole), and that's cuz he takes crazy ass, difficult, near impossible stunts that do not for the most part contribute to music (speaking of music as a whole).

Good point. The problem is that most people and even alot of drummers don't know who Donati is. You have to make the kind of impact on the masses that Rich did to make a comparison like this. Clearly today, the most popular few guys to be considered the royalty are Gadd, Colaiuta, Weckl, Chambers....and none of them is anywhere near as well known as Buddy was. I really don't think one drummer stands out today like in the past. And maybe that's a good thing. It's just proving that drumming has come a long way and that there are thousands of excellent drummers today.

[Lambo]

No way. I know this whole thing isn't fair but I have to respond. These drummers are VERY different. Donati plays COMPLEX patterns and does not play with the swing
of a Buddy Rich. Point blank: Buddy had more control, speed, fire, etc....
Nothing against Virgil but there is no comparison. I would say Virgil could probably get up to BR's speed.....

[Superlow]

I would say Virgil could probably get up to BR's speed.....


No offense, but I don't think speed is the issue it's feel and showmanship, Feel being something that Virgil Lacks. I think that speed is something that can be mstered easier these days... look at the WFD competitions you got guys who you have never heard of scoring pretty high in the speed category. The drummers mentioned above have speed.

[jonescrusher]

Sorry to be off-topic a little, just wanted to thank fkleiner for recognising Zach Hill of Hella as one of the true virtuosos of our time - i totally agree that he shows shades of BR in bringing muscality and insane technicality together successfully.
To all Donati fans, check this guy out- it's truly another level.

[Adam]

I totally have to agree, I think Donati is the man, along with that drummer from Invein


hahahaha, you assclown

[Adam]

I think a major difference is that I've never seen any video of Buddy playing something that's arguably just plain bad. About 50% of any given Donati video I've seen has seemed uncertain, not quite "cooked" yet, and often very mathematical. It kind of sounds like he's worked out a part on paper then learned to play it, but it's not quite something he's totally in control of yet - certainly not something he's making a musical choice about. The only time he seems truly comfortable is when he dives off into blazing chops, which he does with alarming regularity. Every time he comes back to one of his opposing meter grooves it just sounds forced - like he only learned the groove as an excuse to play the fills. Of the guys I've seen doing this stuff, I like his approach the least. Thomas Lang wipes the floor with him, and he's not really my cup of tea either.

I don't get why people think he has such great technique, too. He strikes me more as somebody who achieves results in spite of his hand technique than because of it, look at the way he kills the rebound on his toms strokes!

I don't really believe you've ever actually heard virgil then. His hand technique is the best I think I've ever seen, and just look at how fast/controlled/PERFECT his rudiment playing is.

[toteman2]

Yeah...I somehow get the feeling that most people who are questioning Virgil's "feel" or "capacity to play in the pocket" just really are not familliar with the majority of his work...Feel and Time is one of my favorite things about him...

[finnhiggins]

I don't really believe you've ever actually heard virgil then. His hand technique is the best I think I've ever seen, and just look at how fast/controlled/PERFECT his rudiment playing is.

Why is it that you guys always fall back on this one? "Oh, you must not have heard him". Read my posting history. Do I look like I regularly launch into opinions on drummers without bothering to listen to them? I might not like a lot of choppy guys, but I've at least listened to a good cross-section of their output to come to that opinion. And every time one of you guys comes out with this and then posts a video or something to watch it does nothing but re-enforce my impressions of the guy.

Yes, I've listened to Virgil. I bought a Planet X album. I've watched probably about half of what is out there to buy in terms of video footage. And I really, really think he's quite poor beyond his amazing fast chops. His part selection just makes me want to cringe. Do me a favour, if you're a Donati fan can you please, please invest in a copy of Drumkit From Hell and spend about six months programming up every uber-technical polyrhythmic groove that you can imagine? It'll be educational on two fronts:

1) The programmed ones will have a similar feel to what you hear from Donati, but with a bit more consistency and confidence.
2) You'll discover that maybe 95% of the possible complex "intellectualised" multi-polyrhythmic prog grooves and ostinatos actually sound like crap when it comes to listening to them as music. They lack musical shape, any conception of tension and release just gets jumbled up in complex co-ordination. Latin ostinatos and soloing works not because it has fifty million independent syncopated parts going at once, but because there's some core rhythmic logic behind the construction of those grooves, not just "Hey, I wonder what five plus seven plus eleven would sound like....". Where's the tension and release in that, other than whatever chance throws your way in the interplay of pure numbers?

Now, that's not to say that the other 5% that works well isn't amazing to hear, but like anything else in music it's the exception rather than the rule if you just pick things at random. Grant Collins is quite good at picking parts, he just suffers from excessive chops syndrome a bit. Fredrik Thordendal does a good job with the stuff he programs for Thomas Haake in Meshuggah. But Virgil Donati's parts... they just sound amateurish to my ears, like the early experiments you make when you start playing with that material in a sequencer. I'll forgive Thomas Lang for some of his more unmusical stuff on his DVD because he promotes them as co-ordination exercises and plays quite differently from that when he's actually performing. But Virgil... no. Can't stand it.

Oh, and yes, he has very fast hands. I just don't think his actual physical technique is as pristine as you guys would like to make out, it's quite heavy and unweildy at times. As I mentioned before, watch his hands when he goes to the toms and see how low he kills the rebound. That's a helluva lot of lifting he's doing there, folks. He's just practiced it enough that he's got it fast.

[toteman2]

Finn, Remember these are your OPINIONS and not facts...As a suggestion I would go beyond planet X albums to explore Donati...For instance check out his work with CAB and the Virgil Donati Band...They are far far different than Planet X...

But Finn, i would like to say that stating something so profound as Donati's playing is "amature" maybe the highest point of arrogance I've ever experienced in the drum or music community...Seriously, i don't think you would say that to his face or in a room full of professional drummers...But you are entitled to your OPINIONS...You must be really really really really really good at drums...Any video or audio, you could share with us?

[theduke86]

Leaping to Finn's defense (not that he needs it...)
I don't believe Finn said his opinion was a fact.... However, it is an opinion that is among the most educated and well regarded around here, because he's a smart guy as well as a really good drummer!
Besides he didn't say Virgil's playing in general was "amateurish", just certain parts. He gives damn good reasons for why they are, and I tend to agree. Perhaps if you refuted one or two of his arguments with some reasonable arguments, we might be getting somewhere....

[finnhiggins]

But Finn, i would like to say that stating something so profound as Donati's playing is "amature" maybe the highest point of arrogance I've ever experienced in the drum or music community...Seriously, i don't think you would say that to his face or in a room full of professional drummers...But you are entitled to your OPINIONS...You must be really really really really really good at drums...Any video or audio, you could share with us?

Goody, now we get phase II: "Oh, then you can do better?". Do you guys have a procedure book you work out of? Every single thread like this goes exactly the same way.

Let's dig out the regular rote response: Read my post! No, of course I can't do better on a choppy level, why do you think that's him on the cover of MD and not me? That's maybe why I didn't say his *playing* was amateurish, as it's very obviously not. I don't like it very much, but it's certainly professional.

However, I do think his part selection is amateurish, particularly the grooves he uses in his soloing approach. If I sit down with a sequencer then it's relatively easy to come up with parts that sound like what Donati does - they're just not any good. They're bastard hard to play, but since when was that any measure of merit for a musical part?

If you take away the factor that makes Donati's achievements notable - the physical realm - and reduce his playing to notes in a sequencer then I fail to see what is good about it whatsoever. Can you explain to me why Donati's parts would be excellent if you programmed them instead of him playing them? That's what I mean about poor part selection. If it wouldn't be impressive as drum programming, why would a metronomic live performance suddenly make it that much better? If it would be impressive as programming work (where co-ordinational challenges don't apply, so we don't have to worry about how hard he's worked on that), I'm obviously missing it and need you to explain to me what's so profound about it.

As for the aforementioned room full of professionals, I can tell you for a fact that at least one of the people with a page of their own on Drummerworld refers to him as "Virgin Donati". I've hardly been that scathing. I won't name names though.

[toteman2]

Besides he didn't say Virgil's playing in general was "amateurish", just certain parts. He gives damn good reasons for why they are, and I tend to agree...

What were the good reasons describing why his playing is amature? I saw two things decscribing why he doesn't like his parts, but not expressing why they are amature...I don't think i ever stated Finn's opinions are not educated or well regaurded because i know he is a very knowledgable drummer, just very arrogant when it comes to drummers who show off chops and complexity...

[JohnMunsey]

Virgil is a phenomenal drummer - chops, speed, coordination, you name it.

But, if you're talking about who might resemble Buddy's playing today, I wouldn't say Virgil - I would say Art Verdi. If you saw his videos, he's one of the guys who looks like he's in fast foward motion - like Buddy looked. Intense hand/arm speed.

If you mean The Buddy of today as far as standing out and being far above drummers of today, it's possible. But I might add a few other drummers too. Good thread.

[fourstringdrums]

I don't think there is much to compare in my opinion. Donati has no charisma as a person or as a drummer.

+1 Buddy had feeling and emotion behind what he was playing. Virgil IMO, like alot of "chops" drummers today that I won't bother mentioning, is cold and emotionless. Its drummers like him that make me honestly appreciate a nice laid back groove, regardless of how simple. Chops is a good thing, but if you can't put something meaningful behind it, what's the point?

[toteman2]

Can you explain to me why Donati's parts would be excellent if you programmed them instead of him playing them? That's what I mean about poor part selection. If it wouldn't be impressive as drum programming, why would a metronomic live performance suddenly make it that much better? If it would be impressive as programming work (where co-ordinational challenges don't apply, so we don't have to worry about how hard he's worked on that), I'm obviously missing it and need you to explain to me what's so profound about it.


I'm really not sure what you're getting at here...I guess in a way you could argue any drummers parts would be excellent if programmed...I would much much rather have Virgil playing the parts...If it wasn't him playing it, it just wouldn't be the same in the slightest...He gives the notes life, power, musicality, dynamics, everything they need to make him sound the way he does, which to me is very distinct...You can't give a computer his feel, or anticipation of time and groove...

I mean would you want to hear this programmed instead of him playing it?
http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/highlights/highlights-vdband92304_02.wmv


He is adding so much color, flavor, and raw emotion to compliment the keyboardists solo, while keeping perfect time, something a computer could never capture...They just look like they are having so much fun, feeding off one another...True showcase of musicianship IMO...

[Thinshells]

The basis of this argument seems to be again, technical drumming vs "feel" and "groove"

And a lot of assumptions on the part of Donati. People are placing a cap, a limit if you will on his scope of abilities.

If you know Virgil personally, and have personally evaluated his groove and feel in person (outside of clinics) and maybe listened to something he did that was supposed to have the same "feel and "groove" of Buddy's material, then I'd buy some of the anti-Donati arguments.

But to say Virgil "can't" A. B. C. is to say you know him so well, that you can make that call. The only factual part of that argument against him is that you don't normally see him demonstrate that side of drumming.

The two camps here (Rich vs Donati) are polarized over technical vs swing drumming, and it seems like the anti-Donati crowd just don't like him, or the technical aspects no matter how you slice it.

But again, Stevie Vai, Planet x etc aren't exactly Funk or jazz...

[Smoky_McPot]

I think Virgil can put on a decent show, tell me whats so terrible about this clip
http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/g3soloend.wmv
I dont think a drum machine would do better, he puts on a show. All we have heard on this thread is hot air, Buddy vs Donati. Here is a piece of evidence that i think supports the argument that Donati is the Buddy of our time.

BTW I agree with Nutha that you cant really compare the two, but instead of all this crap talking heres something to watch.

[finnhiggins]

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here...I guess in a way you could argue any drummers parts would be excellent if programmed...


No, you couldn't. Programmed stuff sounds stiff and nasty unless you work on it very hard, but it tends to show up good parts from bad in a musical context very well. A good drummer can make an average part sound better, but a great drummer chooses a great part and then takes it even further with dynamics, subtle timing nuances etc. The obvious example here would be somebody like Steve Gadd.

My issue with Donati is that in his soloing he very frequently plays complex mixed-meter grooves. Those kind of things are potentially very interesting, but unless you're careful they can turn into a structureless mess. Add in the fact that the independent parts each have to make sense and you want to avoid flamming on unisons tends to force that kind of playing into very metronomic time. So for those parts, I ask the question - if it wasn't hard to do, would it be good? I don't think so. I'd rather hear something like Nat Townsley's stuff on Drummerworld, it's got groove as well as chops and it makes musical sense.


I mean would you want to hear this programmed instead of him playing it?
http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/highlights/highlights-vdband92304_02.wmv

He is adding so much color, flavor, and raw emotion to compliment the keyboardists solo, while keeping perfect time, something a computer could never capture...They just look like they are having so much fun, feeding off one another...True showcase of musicianship IMO...

That's a lot better. It's not my cup of tea for the same reason that I'm not a big Weckl fan, but I can respect that kind of playing in that it's actually got musical structure. But things like the solo performance somebody posted over in the other Virgil Donati thread... Urk. The problem is, much of the stuff he does seems to present that kind of approach to time playing in the solos. It was also all over the Planet X album I had. That really does make me question his musicality quite seriously, because if he was the consumate musician people seem to be claiming him as in this thread then surely he'd notice that... well... that stuff just aint that hot.

I'm not disputing his playing from a drummer's perspective, I'm doing it from the POV of somebody who has done a lot of drum programming and played seriously around with a lot of those concepts in sequencers. Some things work. Some things don't. Donati seems to use both approaches liberally and with no obvious understanding of which is which, as long as the part looks difficult. That's not my idea of musicality. Go check out some of Fredrik Thordendal's drum programming, particularly the new Meshuggah album. He's done a good job of solidifying a recognisable musical style in his approach to polyrhythmic/polymetric material. That stuff is cool regardless of whether he gets Thomas Haake to play it live or if they just run with the programmed parts on the album. I'm not sure Donati would be so well-loved if he just programmed his solos and released them as compositions, while I'm pretty sure that a lot of Max Roach's stuff ("The drum also waltzes", etc) would still pass muster because it has a comprehensible musical structure beyond just chops and amazing co-ordination.

Again - would Donati's solos be good if they weren't hard? Would they be better than, say, "let there be drums" - which is very easy, but has such unusual musical concepts as hooks, catchy phrases and song structure.

[finnhiggins]

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here...I guess in a way you could argue any drummers parts would be excellent if programmed...


No, you couldn't. Programmed stuff sounds stiff and nasty unless you work on it very hard, but it tends to show up good parts from bad in a musical context very well. A good drummer can make an average part sound a lot better, but a great drummer chooses a great part and then takes it even further with dynamics, subtle timing nuances etc. The obvious example here would be somebody like Steve Gadd.

My issue with Donati is that in his soloing he very frequently plays complex mixed-meter grooves. Those kind of things are potentially very interesting, but unless you're careful they can turn into a structureless mess. Add in the fact that the independent parts each have to make sense and you want to avoid flamming on unisons tends to force that kind of playing into very metronomic time. So for those parts, I ask the question - if it wasn't hard to do, would it be good? I don't think so. I'd rather hear something like Nat Townsley's stuff on Drummerworld, it's got groove as well as chops and it makes musical sense.


I mean would you want to hear this programmed instead of him playing it?
http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/highlights/highlights-vdband92304_02.wmv

He is adding so much color, flavor, and raw emotion to compliment the keyboardists solo, while keeping perfect time, something a computer could never capture...They just look like they are having so much fun, feeding off one another...True showcase of musicianship IMO...

That's a lot better. It's not my cup of tea for the same reason that I'm not a big Weckl fan, but I can respect that kind of playing in that it's actually got musical structure. But things like the solo performance somebody posted over in the other Virgil Donati thread... Urk. The problem is, much of the stuff he does seems to present that kind of approach to time playing in the solos. It was also all over the Planet X album I had. That really does make me question his musicality quite seriously, because if he was the consumate musician people seem to be claiming him as in this thread then surely he'd notice that... well... that stuff just aint that hot.

I'm not disputing his playing from a drummer's perspective, I'm doing it from the POV of somebody who has done a lot of drum programming and played seriously around with a lot of those concepts in sequencers. Some things work. Some things don't. Donati seems to use both approaches liberally and with no obvious understanding of which is which, as long as the part looks difficult. That's not my idea of musicality. Go check out some of Fredrik Thordendal's drum programming, particularly the new Meshuggah album. He's done a good job of solidifying a recognisable musical style in his approach to polyrhythmic/polymetric material. That stuff is cool regardless of whether he gets Thomas Haake to play it live or if they just run with the programmed parts on the album. I'm not sure Donati would be so well-loved if he just programmed his solos and released them as compositions, while I'm pretty sure that a lot of Max Roach's stuff ("The drum also waltzes", etc) would still pass muster because it has a comprehensible musical structure beyond just chops and amazing co-ordination.

Again - would Donati's solos be good if they weren't hard? Would they be better than, say, "let there be drums" - which is very easy, but has such unusual musical concepts as hooks, catchy phrases and song structure.

[NUTHA JASON]

great post finn.
i'm in agreement. i like simple musical solos with occasional flare rather than all flare solos with occasional musicality. one has only to look at the drum battle between weckl gadd and coulita on DW to see what i mean. weckl and coulita are flaring a lot... and then gadd comes in with a lovely groove (not simple, mind you) but in the context of what was comming before it is like a breath of fresh air.

the way i picture it, if you don't mind the spacial analogy, all the possible things that can be done on drums are like a vast flat plane. in the very center are the basic grooves like four-on-the-floor and clasical jazz riding. this is the green oasis. around these are ever more interesting but less used grooves, rudiments and figures. as we walk out of the oasis the trees of useful drumming ideas thin out into the grass and bush of the extraordinary and then into the wasteland of what is possible but not necessarily loveable. guys like virgil and bozzio are the explorers in the desert. they make tracks into the unknown and increase the realm of the oasis but they don't always find diamonds and water. it is nice to know that they are out there but better to watch them slogging in the sand from the cool of the trees. where they go others follow and plant but the further from the oasis the less likely that the harvest will grow healthy.

j

[Superlow]

Finn, Remember these are your OPINIONS and not facts...As a suggestion I would go beyond planet X albums to explore Donati...For instance check out his work with CAB and the Virgil Donati Band...They are far far different than Planet X...



I am sorry I have heard CAB and the VD band, it's nothing you can bob your head to... it's people over playing. Cheesey synth, a guitar player shredding, unnecessary drum soloing, they left that stuff in the 80's for a reason.

[Ash]

I can say I've seen quite a bit of old Virgil and his playing does nothing for me personally.To liken him to buddy is a bold statement! If you want drummers overplaying on really crap muso music,John Blackwell jr. is much more human/inspiring/exciting. As for crappy muso music,I tend to stick well clear of it! Give me Nirvana (easy drums),The smiths (easy drums) and The stone roses (easy-ish drums) any day of the week.

[toteman2]

I am sorry I have heard CAB and the VD band, it's nothing you can bob your head to... it's people over playing. Cheesey synth, a guitar player shredding, unnecessary drum soloing, they left that stuff in the 80's for a reason.


I guess I'm sorry, because I love that stuff...I like seeing musicians go nuts...IT moves me, and excites me...Now if you don't like that kind of stuff, then cool...But lots and lots and lots of people LOVE that stuff...It's an inspiration...While you may see this stuff as UNNECESSARY, thats just YOU...Others tend to totaly disagree...There is no right or wrong way of looking at it...All thats important is what makes YOU want to listen or watch...Alot of muscians prefer to challenge themselves and make things unpredictable and interesting...I don't think i would still be playing drums at the rate i do, if i didn't want to challenge myself, and maybe play things that some would call unesscessarty...And no, most songs by CAB or VD Band are not the usual tap your foot, easy listening, 4/4 time stuff...They try to offer somthing unusual, and complex...IMO, it's fantastic...

[toteman2]

. i like simple musical solos with occasional flare rather than all flare solos with occasional musicality.


See this just where we differ...When i go to see a drum solo or clinic, I want the dude to go completley NUTS, showing off chops, independence, power, dynmanics, flare, and showmanship...I don't want to see anything "simple", because i can entertain myself doing things simple...I like to be blown away by solos, it's just how i see things...When we get inside a song, that totally changes...

[finnhiggins]

See this just where we differ...When i go to see a drum solo or clinic, I want the dude to go completley NUTS, showing off chops, independence, power, dynmanics, flare, and showmanship...I don't want to see anything "simple", because i can entertain myself doing things simple...I like to be blown away by solos, it's just how i see things...When we get inside a song, that totally changes...

Question: How old are you? I ask because back when I was maybe eighteen, nineteen or so I used to think like this too. Drumming was still new, and I was exploring the world of virtuoso playing for the first time, etc etc. So each new amazing drummer I saw was pulling out these blazing chops, and I couldn't even imagine how you'd get to be able to play like that etc etc. Blew me away.

Flash forward a few years. Now when I see a solo like that it's a bit more like "double kick rudiments... check.... fast singles... check... oh look... a polyrhythm....". You see? After you see enough of that stuff it turns into a checklist and really stops being in any way exciting.

The way I see it, music is like a language. You try to express something through what you play, and if you're any good then the audience feels it. Now, imagine you're learning a new language - say you're not a native English speaker. Initially, if you see a book or article written by somebody and it uses lots of long words and complex sentences... you're impressed. You think... "Wow, this guy really knows all the grammar rules and he's got a huge vocabulary". Because all of that stuff looks so daunting and far away it makes you grant an automatic degree of respect and authority to what's being said. But once you get a better grasp of the language and reading becomes easier to you, you start to realise that simplicity is maybe a better way to get the message across. Look at George Orwell - the language is not that complicated, but it's amazingly good writing. Equally, there's many lousy writers like me - lots of long words, huge sentences, but actually not saying a whole lot for the amount they write. I can type real fast, but that's because it takes me ages to say something. I suspect George Orwell could have done this post in about three short sentences and said as much.

Imagine somebody making a speech. Are you more impressed by the guy who can talk so fast that you get a headache trying to keep up, or is the guy who speaks slowly, precisely and clearly for the same amount of time and gets the same amount said doing the better job as an orator? Sure, having precise ability to execute the physical movements to get the words out is important. But who cares if the content is just gibberish, being delivered with virtuosic speed and power?

So for me, I'm not automatically impressed by chops anymore. I work on them, but the more I work on them the more I realise that getting better on that front is just a matter of putting in more work. Once your hand technique is good enough you can make a whole lot of improvements while you're half asleep and not really paying attention - you just keep running the drills. I don't feel as proud of my technical achievements as I do of my musical ones, on the rare occasion that something cool turns up. For every fill I've done with big tom rolls, I'm usually more impressed on playback with the time I just did the same fill with one hi-hat accent and a syncopation in the bass drum. So my perception of soloing and virtuosic playing has changed accordingly as I've matured on the instrument. I'm hardly a good musician yet, but if I want to get there then the path from where I am now is probably not more technique, it's more understanding of structure, time and tone and how to build something communicative with that. In comparison to that, chops is really pretty easy to work on.

[theduke86]

Finn, I'm never going to post anything again, that was beautiful *tear*.
Seriously, that summed it all up very eloquently, and I happen to completely believe in what you're saying. I'm glad I'm in the right headspace now at 18 as compared to five years down the road. Now if only I can get my chops up....

[LDGuy]

And that, Finny, is why people are so in love with Gadd. He's got to be the grooviest white guy that ever touched the earth, and just cos his "chops" are not quite as up to standard as the next guy's, is, well, irrelevent. The guy's a genius...

And to stay on topic, i really dont have much to say to "compare" Virg and Buddy. Donati is one of my ABSOLUTE favourite drummers, without a doubt, and i must say i'm not the biggest Buddy fan, but they're just in different leagues. And anyway, i'm too in love with Vinnie (his playing!) to really diverge... lol

[toteman2]

I'm 25 and have been playing since 8...I remember when i was very young and uneducated and all that would really impress me would be real flashy fast stuff...Thats all totaly changed for me for years...I love EVERY aspect of drumming...I have deep love from Gadd, to Ringo, Glenn Velez, Tony Williams, Alex Acunna, Airto, Bonhman, on and on and on...I watched this video from Sean Rickman last month (who i had never heard of before) and he expressed how certain songs he wrote were not all about chops...The song he played freaking blew me away...It's not even like i have a FAVORITE drummer to say...I think there is just so many differnet sides of drumming to explore are like that i can't have a favorite...

With all that said, i still don't mind talking about Donati...In my experiences, and IMO he is as complete a drummer as you get...Like I've said he has everthing in his playing that i want from feel, to chops, to groove, to complete independence, to understanding of music, to total clarity of notes...He impresses me the most out of any drummer I've ever sceen...This is just how i see things...

[Adam]

great post finn.
i'm in agreement. i like simple musical solos with occasional flare rather than all flare solos with occasional musicality. one has only to look at the drum battle between weckl gadd and coulita on DW to see what i mean. weckl and coulita are flaring a lot... and then gadd comes in with a lovely groove (not simple, mind you) but in the context of what was comming before it is like a breath of fresh air.

the way i picture it, if you don't mind the spacial analogy, all the possible things that can be done on drums are like a vast flat plane. in the very center are the basic grooves like four-on-the-floor and clasical jazz riding. this is the green oasis. around these are ever more interesting but less used grooves, rudiments and figures. as we walk out of the oasis the trees of useful drumming ideas thin out into the grass and bush of the extraordinary and then into the wasteland of what is possible but not necessarily loveable. guys like virgil and bozzio are the explorers in the desert. they make tracks into the unknown and increase the realm of the oasis but they don't always find diamonds and water. it is nice to know that they are out there but better to watch them slogging in the sand from the cool of the trees. where they go others follow and plant but the further from the oasis the less likely that the harvest will grow healthy.

j


This was very well said...and need I remind everyone what this post was about (what is quoted here reminded me of my main point). I suppose you can't really look at Virgil the same as other guys. HE'S the guy trying something new, and pushing the envelope...NOT these "groove" players, and you have to understand that. One of my favorite things about Virgil himself is that he doesn't sound the same now as he did last year, or the year before that, etc etc

. I see a lot of guys bash Virgil Donati, and I mean a LOT...and i don't understand it! It almost sounds like an excuse to not have to practice, or take down those guys who do because "I'll never be as good as them technically, so I'll attack them artistically"...the guy has so much musicallity that is just over the top of the average persons head...but I find his drumming to be beautiful. I will admit that the clinic videos that have been circulating around lately with the independence adn stuff ARE quite boring (albeit impressive) but look at some of his old stuff like the MOntreal drum fest 97 stuff...it's like poetry on the drums. He almost looks like he's doing martial arts, and his body movements are SO expressive.

In ten years from now people will start to appreciate Virgil, just like all those old Weckl/Coliauta bashers appreciate them now because what they did back then is now a little more common among drummers...or at least understandable to most.

And on the topic about Virgil's technique...I've actually talked to a few professional drummers in my time about Virgil. One guy from Vancouver (gary grace) actually did a drum duo with him, and said that his technique is over the top (I don't remember the exact words, but I think "near perfect" was used), so whatever you want to say about Virgil's technique is up to you, but your opinion is miniscule to me compared with Gary's. And he doesn't get bounce on the toms? Go re-watch whatever video that gave you that impression...and the VOLUME and DYNAMICS...ok I really have to stop or else I'll go on forever

[finnhiggins]

This was very well said...and need I remind everyone what this post was about (what is quoted here reminded me of my main point). I suppose you can't really look at Virgil the same as other guys. HE'S the guy trying something new, and pushing the envelope...NOT these "groove" players, and you have to understand that. One of my favorite things about Virgil himself is that he doesn't sound the same now as he did last year, or the year before that, etc etc

. I see a lot of guys bash Virgil Donati, and I mean a LOT...and i don't understand it! It almost sounds like an excuse to not have to practice, or take down those guys who do because "I'll never be as good as them technically, so I'll attack them artistically"...the guy has so much musicallity that is just over the top of the average persons head...

There's a couple of quite arguable points in there. I don't think that Virgil is the one pushing the envelope, or rather - I don't think he's pushing the right envelope. To my ears, he is to the great, genre-defining drummers of the past (or even present) what a modern-day mountain climber is to somebody like Captain Cook. In one fairly small area he's managing to do a lot of extremely detailed exploration which must be quite rewarding both for him personally and for other people deeply immersed in the highly specialised area of, say, double kick technique. But when it comes to actually expanding the world of drumming in a useful way... he's not doing it for me.

I actually do think there are "groove players" out there who are expanding drumming much more than he is, I'd offer Matt Chamberlain as an example. He's taking everything that used to look like a threat to expressive drummers - loops, drum machines, studio-perfect timing and dynamics - and turning it into a weapon he can use to make himself even more awesome. Plus he has great chops, even if he's not a Donati-esque soloist. So no, I don't have to understand that the "Groove guys" are sitting still while Donati rages ahead into the future - I think you're wrong. From my perspective he's more of an Yngwie Malmsteen - popular for a while, but it'll fade once enough people realise that what he's doing just not really musically applicable in any style. Or at least, not applicable without turning the music itself into a house for virtuosic show-off playing that doesn't appeal to anybody other than a rapidly shrinking crowd of chop-heads, very few of whom are attractive or female.

I don't like his stuff. But seriously - it's not to do with his technique. I don't have anything much against Thomas Lang or Grant Collins, or indeed Vinnie Colaiuta, Buddy Rich, Nat Townsley or any others amoung the millions of drummers I can't keep up with in terms of chops. I just have a serious dislike of what he does as a musician, and that's been true since I first saw one of his videos back in the 1990s.

And hell yes, I'm envious - I would love to have his chops. But that doesn't discredit my points - I would also love to have Matt Chamberlain's chops, yet you don't see me up in arms about the guy. Ditto virtually any of the other guys with a page on Drummerworld. If you want to make an analogy to Vinnie, where's Donati's "Ten Summoner's Tales"? Or, indeed, his "Joe's Garage"?

[Clark]

They are TOTALLY different players.

__________________________________________________ __________

By the way, what's with "white" guy?
Nothing to do with drumming. white, red , black, green... just listen to the playing and don't worry about the color. That crap never ends. It should.

[Adam]

There's a couple of quite arguable points in there. I don't think that Virgil is the one pushing the envelope, or rather - I don't think he's pushing the right envelope. To my ears, he is to the great, genre-defining drummers of the past (or even present) what a modern-day mountain climber is to somebody like Captain Cook. In one fairly small area he's managing to do a lot of extremely detailed exploration which must be quite rewarding both for him personally and for other people deeply immersed in the highly specialised area of, say, double kick technique. But when it comes to actually expanding the world of drumming in a useful way... he's not doing it for me.

I actually do think there are "groove players" out there who are expanding drumming much more than he is, I'd offer Matt Chamberlain as an example. He's taking everything that used to look like a threat to expressive drummers - loops, drum machines, studio-perfect timing and dynamics - and turning it into a weapon he can use to make himself even more awesome. Plus he has great chops, even if he's not a Donati-esque soloist. So no, I don't have to understand that the "Groove guys" are sitting still while Donati rages ahead into the future - I think you're wrong. From my perspective he's more of an Yngwie Malmsteen - popular for a while, but it'll fade once enough people realise that what he's doing just not really musically applicable in any style. Or at least, not applicable without turning the music itself into a house for virtuosic show-off playing that doesn't appeal to anybody other than a rapidly shrinking crowd of chop-heads, very few of whom are attractive or female.

I don't like his stuff. But seriously - it's not to do with his technique. I don't have anything much against Thomas Lang or Grant Collins, or indeed Vinnie Colaiuta, Buddy Rich, Nat Townsley or any others amoung the millions of drummers I can't keep up with in terms of chops. I just have a serious dislike of what he does as a musician, and that's been true since I first saw one of his videos back in the 1990s.

And hell yes, I'm envious - I would love to have his chops. But that doesn't discredit my points - I would also love to have Matt Chamberlain's chops, yet you don't see me up in arms about the guy. Ditto virtually any of the other guys with a page on Drummerworld. If you want to make an analogy to Vinnie, where's Donati's "Ten Summoner's Tales"? Or, indeed, his "Joe's Garage"?

Actually, I'm glad to see a relavent and mature response to this. I do see a lot of your point, and even I haven't really SEEN virgil do anything TOO much outside of "his" personal style...I still think what I think, but thank you for a realistic response

[mediocrefunkybeat]

I like the Yngwie Malmsteen parallel you draw up there. I've recently begun to explore guitarists as musicians a bit (don't worry, I'm no good at the guitar, so I'm not going to stop playing as a result) and I got my hands on G3: Live at Denver. Of Satriani, Malmsteen and Vai I personally enjoyed Satch the most.

However, after over an hour of music I sat back and went over Malmsteen's performance in my head. I just realised how utterly over-the-top and unmusical it actually was. Technically brilliant, absolutely, and I can appreciate that. His neck speed is incredible (I would argue Satch has him in that department though) but there just seemed to be no musical end to his technical virtuosity.

That's how I feel when I hear say, Virgil. And don't get me wrong, I have utter respect for the guy, if I could play drums a fifth as well as him I'd be very happy with myself. However I find some of his playing unlistenable. Like Malmsteen. It's like I could sit back, listen and then afterwards say 'Wow; that was amazing, now when does the music begin?'

Personally I'd rather listen to an expressive guitarist who has technical flaws (alá Hendrix, it can be argued) than a technically perfect guitarist with no idea of musical context (alá Malmsteen) but the same is true. I have utter respect for the guy, even if sometimes he acts like an idiot...

Not meaning to rub anyone up the wrong way, just my biased and bigoted opinion as usual.

[CarterB_Junkie]

Just to add something in the debate could Virgil has his Ten SUmmoner's Tale in the current music scene ?

Which artist would be able to use Virgil ( or any other monster chop drummer) in a technical and musical way as Sting and Zappa did with Colaiuta or Corea and Paul Simon with Gadd ???

The thing that saddens me in the current pop rock music scene is that nobody has musical ambitions regarding drumming especially !
Thomas Lang has played with a Spice Girl but in this context can he creates a memorable drum part or groove : difficult I would say !
That's why I cherish the Dave Matthews Band because it is basically rock played by Jazz musicians and Dave lets his musicians express themselves especially live, have you seen Carter Beauford in a live context, the guy totally ripps without forgetting the groove (people are dancing DURING his solos goddammit, can Virgil do this ????).
That's why Sting's first albums with Omar Hakim, Manu Katché and Vinnie Colaiuta were amazing because it was a real musical collaboration between Sting and its drummers.
In DMB, Carter creates amazing grooves and parts that are always musical and sometimes quite technical, the guy is for me the perfect balance between groove and over the top playing !

Maybe I am mistaking but what pop rock album in the last 5 years featured a real good drummming performance ( maybe Abe Laboriel Jr with Vanessa Carlton but it wasn't Sting's caliber anyway )

Virgil Donati with Soul Sirkus had very mundane rock beats not particularely creative or original but it was still good.
I ve felt anything in listening Virgil parts except the OMG did he really do that ???
I agree that Vinnie 's performance in Ten Summoner's tale is one fo the most musical, tasteful, subtely technical I know ! He lays down the groove so beautifully on this one !
He uses his incredible chops in the most musical way, I am still waiting for Virgil to do the exact same thing but he's capable I am sure .

[lowender]

what a post!
to offer up my two penneth I'd just like to say, firstly of all this technical s**** for technical s****** sake who do you know that listens (with love and regularity) to say steve vai who isn't a guitar player? same goes for any of these techno psycho's (on any other instrument).
For c****** sake when will people as a whole see that music is music (and in my mind one of the single most important things we have as a species) the great universal language! and technique is simply a way (or part there of) of being able to create this fantastic art form.
I for a start can't play a lot of great grooves (john bonham springs immediately to mind for now and copeland and mitch too) currently as in my 12 months of playing I haven't yet gathered all the technique required for playing them.
I am however proficient on the guitar and bass so I do consider myself able to stand up and voice my opinion on this technique/musicality matter.
During my practice of guitar I favour hendrix over vai for example. with the bass george porter jnr. (the meters) over bill the buddha dickens, just 2 examples.
there are some players who have great technique and their music is fantastic, there are others who have terrible technique but who are/were phenomenally musical.
its a means to an end surely although sometimes can very easily be bypassed but still get great results (curt cobain, stevie wonder(drumwise), john frusicante for example all of which great musicians but not necessarily great technicians).
if any of you crowd are happy in your little worlds of blazing chops with your cd collections full of speed techno and pictures of ugly and pasty people on your walls then all the power in the world to you. HOWEVER don't you dare call it music.
There's a reason my missus/my dad/the bloke up the road would not listen to a virgil donati cd. a yngwie malmsteen cd etc.
It's because musically it is s***.
I'm not saying you can't enjoy it for whatever it is, of course you can its a free world and long be it, but don't come on here w******* off that just because somebody can play at 12 zillion beats per minutes for some reason justifies them an entry into the grandest musical echelons.
If you want to play musical, be musical. technique is only the taxi ride to the airport, there's still a lot miles to travel before you get to where you want to be if being a musicians where its at.
I know from my current novice state on the drums that all I'm interested in is laying it down and being able to play the right thing at the right time. If a piece of music calls for a ludicrously fast roll across the drumkit then fair do's I need to learn that but the most important thing is making people playing around me and listening in the audience think "jesus this feels good!".
james brown did it, steve jordan does it, the beatles did it, the list goes on. suffice it to say though that music is the most important thing in music, or have we forgotten that?
finally, in my personal opinion Virgil Donati is the Virgil Donati of HIS time, Buddy Rich is the drumming genius of OUR time.

[sound zap]

If you compare one Modern day drummer to the likes of Buddy Rich I would have to say Dennis Chambers is the man

[Aidan]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion BUT!! at least make comments that are backed up woth SOME truth and logic. The narrowminded thinking at times is baffling to me. First off Virg is like Malmsteen, really? how many different Cats from different genre's of music has and is Malmsteen playing with? Maybe that is why Virg is knocking them dead down at the Potato playing with the likes of Mitch Forman, Philpot, Gary Meeks, Wiengart, Brunel,
MaCalpine, Dean Taba, the list goes on and on. The guy plays with the cream of the crop in the Jazz-fusion world on a regular basis in half a dozen different setting's. He then can go on tour and Rock the House with the likes of Neal Schon and Marco Mendoza then he can go and record with Allan Holdsworth on one album Bunny Brunel on another and with member's of Toto on yet another and can lay down a few tracks for a movie soundtrack in his spare time and why not throw in a clinic in front of 500 people.

Yeah that sound's like Malmsteen to Me, good grief the lack of knowledge some people have. And then he can make guy's like Vinnie Colaiuta and Dave Weckl cream their pants during a clinic, how do I know I have been there and seen it. It is quite funny because guy's like Vinnie and Weckl and Simon Phillip's and Dennis Chamber's, Steve Smith were RAVING!! about this guy and praising him openly back in the early nineties when he was still in Australia recording HIT! pop, rock and R&B records. Yeah that is right that is what he did years ago. The guy was part of some of the biggest touring acts and records in Aussie land, been there and done it.

Some people see him in his Ultra-Extreme solo mode and they make quick snap judgements without knowing the truth at all concerning an artists true musical history. Keep the opinion's to the distinct example and stay away form vague uninformed generalizations. Like I said you can like or not like the extreme drumming or a certain genre of music or a style of playing but to say that is what he or another is limited to or THAT! expression of drumming is not musical or relevant when it is to MANY is simply subjective boloney. One man's cup of tea is another man's poison. We can talk about good and bad technique all day long but what is musical is to the ear and eye of the Beholder. Guess what, some guy's like Virg play what they play because it is what they WANT! to do, yes that is right it is a conscious choice, he is not forced to do it. The Man is driven to do what has not been done, like it or not it is HIS choice. I do not think he is losing sleep becasue he has not played with Sting and done the follow up to Ten Summoner's Tales, as if that makes him relevant in the music world. Like I said I think the deep respect and admiration from his peers matter's more.

And yeah I am sure Virg will just fade away real quick, since he has had the respect and admiration of the greatest musicians in the world for almost twenty years and has been in about every type of musical situation for over twenty years and his popularity just keep's on growing. Yeah sounds like he is near being irrelevant anytime soon. He is not just at the forefront of breaking down drumming's barriers technically and creatively he has been THERE! where many would love to be and has done it already in about every musical context possible.

[toteman2]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion BUT!! at least make comments that are backed up woth SOME truth and logic. The narrowminded thinking at times is baffling to me. First off Virg is like Malmsteen, really? how many different Cats from different genre's of music has and is Malmsteen playing with? Maybe that is why Virg is knocking them dead down at the Potato playing with the likes of Mitch Forman, Philpot, Gary Meeks, Wiengart, Brunel,
MaCalpine, Dean Taba, the list goes on and on. The guy plays with the cream of the crop in the Jazz-fusion world on a regular basis in half a dozen different setting's. He then can go on tour and Rock the House with the likes of Neal Schon and Marco Mendoza then he can go and record with Allan Holdsworth on one album Bunny Brunel on another and with member's of Toto on yet another and can lay down a few tracks for a movie soundtrack in his spare time and why not throw in a clinic in front of 500 people.

Yeah that sound's like Malmsteen to Me, good grief the lack of knowledge some people have. And then he can make guy's like Vinnie Colaiuta and Dave Weckl cream their pants during a clinic, how do I know I have been there and seen it. It is quite funny because guy's like Vinnie and Weckl and Simon Phillip's and Dennis Chamber's, Steve Smith were RAVING!! about this guy and praising him openly back in the early nineties when he was still in Australia recording HIT! pop, rock and R&B records. Yeah that is right that is what he did years ago. The guy was part of some of the biggest touring acts and records in Aussie land, been there and done it.

Some people see him in his Ultra-Extreme solo mode and they make quick snap judgements without knowing the truth at all concerning an artists true musical history. Keep the opinion's to the distinct example and stay away form vague uninformed generalizations. Like I said you can like or not like the extreme drumming or a certain genre of music or a style of playing but to say that is what he or another is limited to or THAT! expression of drumming is not musical or relevant when it is to MANY is simply subjective boloney. One man's cup of tea is another man's poison. We can talk about good and bad technique all day long but what is musical is to the ear and eye of the Beholder. Guess what, some guy's like Virg play what they play because it is what they WANT! to do, yes that is right it is a conscious choice, he is not forced to do it. The Man is driven to do what has not been done, like it or not it is HIS choice. I do not think he is losing sleep becasue he has not played with Sting and done the follow up to Ten Summoner's Tales, as if that makes him relevant in the music world. Like I said I think the deep respect and admiration from his peers matter's more.

And yeah I am sure Virg will just fade away real quick, since he has had the respect and admiration of the greatest musicians in the world for almost twenty years and has been in about every type of musical situation for over twenty years and his popularity just keep's on growing. Yeah sounds like he is near being irrelevant anytime soon. He is not just at the forefront of breaking down drumming's barriers technically and creatively he has been THERE! where many would love to be and has done it already in about every musical context possible.


Yeah but he doesn't play in 4/4 enough, and he uses alot of metric modulation and plays alot of notes so he has no feel or groove...LOL...

AMEN dude....you should've came around a while ago so i didn't waiste so much time banging my head agaist the wall...Virgil is da Man...

[Funkifized]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion BUT!! at least make comments that are backed up woth SOME truth and logic. The narrowminded thinking at times is baffling to me. First off Virg is like Malmsteen, really? how many different Cats from different genre's of music has and is Malmsteen playing with? Maybe that is why Virg is knocking them dead down at the Potato playing with the likes of Mitch Forman, Philpot, Gary Meeks, Wiengart, Brunel,
MaCalpine, Dean Taba, the list goes on and on. The guy plays with the cream of the crop in the Jazz-fusion world on a regular basis in half a dozen different setting's. He then can go on tour and Rock the House with the likes of Neal Schon and Marco Mendoza then he can go and record with Allan Holdsworth on one album Bunny Brunel on another and with member's of Toto on yet another and can lay down a few tracks for a movie soundtrack in his spare time and why not throw in a clinic in front of 500 people.

Yeah that sound's like Malmsteen to Me, good grief the lack of knowledge some people have. And then he can make guy's like Vinnie Colaiuta and Dave Weckl cream their pants during a clinic, how do I know I have been there and seen it. It is quite funny because guy's like Vinnie and Weckl and Simon Phillip's and Dennis Chamber's, Steve Smith were RAVING!! about this guy and praising him openly back in the early nineties when he was still in Australia recording HIT! pop, rock and R&B records. Yeah that is right that is what he did years ago. The guy was part of some of the biggest touring acts and records in Aussie land, been there and done it.

Some people see him in his Ultra-Extreme solo mode and they make quick snap judgements without knowing the truth at all concerning an artists true musical history. Keep the opinion's to the distinct example and stay away form vague uninformed generalizations. Like I said you can like or not like the extreme drumming or a certain genre of music or a style of playing but to say that is what he or another is limited to or THAT! expression of drumming is not musical or relevant when it is to MANY is simply subjective boloney. One man's cup of tea is another man's poison. We can talk about good and bad technique all day long but what is musical is to the ear and eye of the Beholder. Guess what, some guy's like Virg play what they play because it is what they WANT! to do, yes that is right it is a conscious choice, he is not forced to do it. The Man is driven to do what has not been done, like it or not it is HIS choice. I do not think he is losing sleep becasue he has not played with Sting and done the follow up to Ten Summoner's Tales, as if that makes him relevant in the music world. Like I said I think the deep respect and admiration from his peers matter's more.

And yeah I am sure Virg will just fade away real quick, since he has had the respect and admiration of the greatest musicians in the world for almost twenty years and has been in about every type of musical situation for over twenty years and his popularity just keep's on growing. Yeah sounds like he is near being irrelevant anytime soon. He is not just at the forefront of breaking down drumming's barriers technically and creatively he has been THERE! where many would love to be and has done it already in about every musical context possible.
Amen to that as well. Some people should just get over it already... musicality is subjective. I find it musical and I understand, while some people can't. Simple as that. I've learned to accept it. All I wanna do, is enjoy what other drummers have to offer instead of bringing them down with my half-assed 'opinions'.

[the rich]

My two favourite drummers are...

Virgil Donati
John Stanier

One for unbelievable "chops" and sheer technical ability and the other for aggressive and memorable, yet relatively simple, drum tracks.

Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

For old time's sake I popped on Planet X - Moonbabies and although the music itself is horrid IMO, the drumming is sensational, and that is the reason I bought it, it gave me alot of inspiration which coupled with the inspiration from other drummers, coming from a different place is no bad thing!

Who says Virgil can't groove? He most certainly can, just check out track 9's intro (Midnight Bell) on this album, he just prefers to blow your mind!

[PdoubleE]

Hey Guys im new to drummerworld.. and its by far the best forum yet. Virgil Donati is surley an incredible player, but i totaly understand how you think hes all showy chops. There is two types of musicians in my book ones that have the gift and can play great from day one... and the one who cant really play at first, but have a passion to play and learns everything he can to become great. The people with the natural gift have the ability to groove. there just naturals at it. The people who strive to become great didnt have that ability to groove at first and were taught by the book. I believe, from what i have seen and heard, that self taught "naturals" just have more of a feel for music and there is soo much more emotion behind it.
People who were taught by the book just sound like they are playing by the book without the emotion in it. Yeah they are incredible by theory standards but they just dont have the same feel. I know there is exceptions but for the most part this is what i have noticed. just my 2 cents for ya

[Aidan]

Well I would say that some people are more naturally gifted with great technique and being able to perform very complex pieces and some are more naturally gifted with feel and a great ear and some have both of it.

[toteman2]

GazzaScotland hurt my ears with that statement ha ha
Do most drummers put Virgil in Buddy Rich's rank guys?


Remember the original comparrison was not in "styles" of playing but the comparrison drawn was "how far they are ahead of eveyonelse"...Back in the day Buddy was considered by many to be the most advanced drummer in the world...By todays standards alot considerd Virgil to be the most advanced drummer in the world...

[0neyellowdrum]

If I could ask just one question to those who consider... drummers have groove or drummers have chops... it would be: Why does it have to be either or ?
I think this thread has shown that opinions about what groove is and who has it is as varied as there are listeners of it. Same with chops. It appears no one here is debating whether Virgil has or doesn't have chops....no posts I have read have disputed his chops only the degree of chops compared to other drummers. What is disputed is his ability to groove. Does he have groove, how much or how little groove, not as much groove as (insert drummer name here) , he can groove but not with the style of music he chooses to play, etc.
I remember a time in my past when it was rare to find musicians who played jazz who could also play rock and vicy versy. Hard to find classical musicians who could play jazz but not vicy versy. Try finding a classical violinist who can play fiddle in a bluegrass band. It is not impossible it is just rare. What is not rare today is drummers, lots of incredible drummers, who play with incredible chops and groove. They can play the sh*t out of any type of music. Buddy Rich never put himself in a position to play Hard Rock and I have my doubts whether he could have pulled if off if he had. Nor did Louie. But drummers of today can and do. Is Virgil one? Yes I think so.

[Aidan]

Music is so ridiculously subjective it is waste of time saying if one play's fewer notes then that is musical, it is absurd. Not that one who play's faster is more adapt at being musical. But please can we get away from the worn out and tired cliche's of oh that guy groove's so hard because he play's fewer notes therefore he is musical, what a load of you know what. No one even really know's what Groove is. You get 10,000 diffeent point's of view. IMO and only my opinion something groove's whether it be the drum parts or the guitar, bass etc. if it FIT'S with the overlall vision of the tune if it is blending and complementing the rest of the band. If the song call's for complexity of rhythm and many notes and precision than so be it if the tune call's for simplicity than great but neither one groove's more than the other. I sure do not want to hear a half time shuffle when a song calls for an outrageous double bass ostinato with some fancy handwork over the top. Nor do I want to hear the opposite. I understand that trait's such as taste, touch, and creativity affect groove and musicality but it is still very subjective.

We can debate proper and improper technique and what is real technical prowess all day long with more productiveness. But debating what is musical and what groove's is very much in the air. We all simply like what we like. What is rubbish to one is beauty to another. We all internally connect to what suit's our desire's and taste's. And just to reiterate the main point of this thread Virgil can perform convincingly in most styles of music with equal proficiency when and if he feels like but I sure do not think he is losing any sleep over what we think, he is too busy being GREAT!

[NUTHA JASON]

agreed.
while i sit here i popped on Steve Gadd up close DVD. and saw there was a bonus footage section that showed virgil. and i say this...anyone who thinks the man is incapable of anything as simple as grooving is a fool. its just that what he does is sometimes somewhere on the other side of groove. when needed the man can groove...its ludicrous to believe anything else.
j

[Thinshells]

agreed.
while i sit here i popped on Steve Gadd up close DVD. and saw there was a bonus footage section that showed virgil. and i say this...anyone who thinks the man is incapable of anything as simple as grooving is a fool. its just that what he does is sometimes somewhere on the other side of groove. when needed the man can groove...its ludicrous to believe anything else.
j

You have just slaughtered the inane arguments against Virgil that he can't groove. I still say, that people who slam professional drummers do so out of envy for thier ability, and personal insecurity. I just lack respect for those who make it a point to denegrate great drummers.

[Womble]

Alex Duthart.

Thinshells - If it were true that I and others only choose to denigrate drummers because we are envious of their ability, and/or have personal insecurities, then it follows we would do the same for all massively successful and influential drummers, no? Virgil is well-known in the drumming community, but is not, as we have seen, respected by all. Drummers like Vinnie, Gadd, and Porcaro are or were massively respected by nearly everone who plays drums, and have contributed so much to popular music that their fame extends well beyond the drumming family. So why don't I have bad things to say about these guys? Why don't I come on here and try to convince people the Gadd can't groove? Hmmm, I wonder....

I AM envious of Vinnie, and I AM envious of Gadd, but I do not slag them off. I don't have much time for Virgil, I don't have much respect for him, and so I will say negative things about his playing. Doesn't that make more sense than your position?

The arguments that Virgil can't groove are far from inane. People who say he can't groove are not fools. I painstakingly explained my position in a previous post which now I can't see....maybe it was in the Thomas Lang thread instead. When someone assures me he can groove, I can only assume their ear is not as sensitive as mine. I don't want this to become personal, but if I am going to be called a fool for my position, I think it's fair to defend myself.

I fail to see how J expressing his belief that Virgil can groove 'slaughters' anyone's argument to the contrary. And this tired old line of 'He can groove, he just plays stuff you can't understand' is really getting annoying. Finn has argued against this previously. It is actually the knowledgeable people who do understand the crazy stuff he plays that aren't wowed into declaring him a genius, because we can see through it. I saw Virgil playing in the Baked Potato, attempting to groove at a medium 4/4 tempo. It sounded HORRIBLE.

[Bernhard]

Ok Ok Ok
Not very long long long time ago in a hour of really depression I deleted a whole Virgil Donati and a Thomas Lang thread here in the Forum (Rude Founder Power!!!!)

There are so many different animals in nature, so why comparing bears with tigers or cats with dog? Why not taking from every drummer what you like and going down to the practice room and improve a little?

Take it as fact:

- Virgil can groove like hell!!! Yes, of course - haaaa (more than 99.9% of us all)
- Steve Gadd can play anything - also Planet X stuff - haaaa haaa - of course!!!!
- Thomas Lang can also play anything - of course!!!!!
- of course all three deserve their place at Drummerworld - haa

So what?

I had the rare chance to hang out with exactly those three and some more at PASIC. Steve attended the Virgil Clinic and was blown away, Virgil attended the Steve Gadd clinic and was blown away too. Thomas did'nt play, but was blown away too.

And all three were blown away by TERREON GULLY!!!!! Watch this guy!!

Bernhard

[jamndrummer]

So what?

I had the rare chance to hang out with exactly those three and some more at PASIC. Steve attended the Virgil Clinic and was blown away, Virgil attended the Steve Gadd clinic and was blown away too. Thomas did'nt play, but was blown away too.

And all three were blown away by TERREON GULLY!!!!! Watch this guy!!

Bernhard

NOW THIS is what Im talking about.....you CAN learn something from EVERYONE.....Just keep open....good post Bern

[finnhiggins]

There are so many different animals in nature, so why comparing bears with tigers or cats with dog?

Just for the record:

Tigers are cooler than bears.
Bears are tougher than dogs.
Dogs smell worse than cats.

This is not an opinion. This is a mathematically proven FACT!

(Sorry, went all L. Ron for a minute there..)

[toteman2]

I think my position on Virgil's groove ability is well known so I won't even get into it...As far as the respect for Virgil in the drumming communtiy? The only dis-respect I've sceen of him comes from a handfull of people who comment on message boards, and thats pretty much it...I find it very awkward, that one of the most well know clinicians and studio drummers in world (who supposedly can't groove) would show up at clinics worldwide and explain the "developement of groove", and then demonstrate it to standing ovations...

[Aidan]

Thank's Bernhard for that much needed insight. The fact is some people think that their opinion about what is musical and what groove's is ABSOLUTE! I would like to know when did they get together and decide that their opinion is THE TRUTH! When will some people wake up and figure out that they made up their mind's about what suit's them long ago and anything that does not follow suit is not up to par for them. What absolute arrogance and worse off flat out foolishness. I will say it again it is SOME of those who sit at home and wish they were actually making a REAL mark in the drumming and music world and want to be admired by those relevant that make the outrageous comment's about someone not being able to groove or play music. But it is guy's like Virg, Vinnie, Gadd, Minneman, Smith, Lang, Weckl, Bozzio, Phillip's the list goes on and on who all have tremendous admiration for one another and are actually telling the truth when they give Praise to one another. I myself have been in company of Vinnie, Smith, Horacio, Bozzio, Mangini and other's while watching Virg and have gotten a kick out of them being truly blown away by the Man's playing. And then watching Virg, Smith and Mangini hang while being truly moved by Vinnie's performance. Their humility and respect for eachother is truly moving.

Again for those who have a hard time accepting the truth. Virg is admired, respected and held in HIGH regard(and has been for years) by those who truly have left a lasting and positive mark in the drumming world.

[Waugh]

For all lovers of guitars, of a mélange of styles, and of Music, don't miss the International Guitar Festival of Nérac, in south-west France, February 24-26, 2006.

The lineup :

- CAB BAND : Bunny Brunel, Tony MacAlpine, Virgil Donati and Steve Weingart

- Natural High Trio : Frank Gambale, Alain Caron and Otmaro Ruiz

- Ferenc Snétberger and Markus Stockhausen

- Nabil Khalidi, Thierry Colson and Khalid Kouhen

- Forestare


An outstanding lineup in more ways than one, if only because of the European debut of the all-star band CAB BAND. The festival will welcome legendary musicians such as Virgil Donati, Bunny Brunel and Tony MacAlpine, as well as Frank Gambale and Alain Caron.

Do not miss the master classes, a stringed instruments and equipment exposition, and free fringe events, among other delights.

For information and reservations: www.festivalguitar.com

[jonny]

sweet! CAB playing on this side of the Atlantic. i'm in london but am seriously considering getting to France for this.

is there a website for the festival?

and if Virgil can't groove, then why did he replace Dennis (universally considered to have one of the deepest pockets in the world) in CAB? i think his playing is brilliant with CAB.

I don't think everyone realises what Virgil is doing in his clinics. clinics are aimed at drummers. it's not necessarily a performance based purely on musically. clinics are about the sharing of technical knowledge, and playing tips, and in virgil's clinics he's displaying his technique and talent. I don't think there's anything wrong with this, as it's not your average concert. they are like one big drum lesson.

and i wish people would lay off Virgil. The impression I get is that he gets all the stick for his technical playing, whereas other players in his genre (mangini, lang, minnemann etc) get let off the hook. why is there so much negative feeling towards him? it's almost seems like some people want to punish him for exploring the boundaries of the instrument, and discovering what can be done with four limbs.

[jonny]

sorry. got so excited there i missed the link in your post! cheers for the info

[Waugh]

You're welcome ! 'Hope you'll come ! ;)

[Aidan]

Jonny you brought up a great point about yeah he does get alot of crap thrown his way for being to extreme and over the top as compared to the other's(fact is he has established the genre of extreme drumming more than any other drummer by far) but I can guarantee this, he is playing with a more diverse group of musicians in more diverse musical setting's than any of the other guy's mentioned BY FAR! And the honest truth is that his playing is more diverse than MOST drummer's who are fairly well known or very well known. And the guy's who rip on him WISH! yeah that is right they wish they could play with 1/10 of the guy's that Virg plays with on a regular basis. Talk is cheap. Virg does not have to talk and does not waste his time talking trash about other drummer's and musicians he is too busy tearing it up with the greatest musicians in the world.

[Perky]

I think Virgil Donati plays doubles with his feet better than anyone

Check him out on the MD Festival 1997

[Aidan]

For Virgil fans, this is a short clip of Virgil soloing during his band's performance at NAMM. Virgil was playing with Mitch Forman, Rufus Philpot and Tony Macalpine. There will be much lengthier clips of the bands performance featured at the Pearl site in the very near future.


http://www.youtube.com/?v=Eq-wpsbwv_w

[baddrumming]

Im not easily impressed these days but that was just ridiculous. INSANE! Never seen anything like it and i have seen them all you name them LANG MINNEMANN RABB BOZZIO ERLANDSON etc. SO much energy, so physical, so creative so.....RIDICULOUS is the only word for it!

[NouveauCliche]

Yowza. Virgil's got some chops for sure!! Those high rack toms make for a super cool visual, thanks for posting this man!

There's two comments that kill me that someone near the camerman says. "He has his eyes closed!" and "Sweeping on drums!". Good times. ;-)

If you want to see Virgil REALLY tear it up, buy Steve Vai's "Live At Astoria"...he does this freaking INSANE solo....towards the end he does this thing where he's spinning stick and hitting cymbals and playing a jungle-esque tom beat...probably the coolest visual thing I've ever seen in a drum solo.

[toteman2]

Thanks for posting that new clip. Always great to see new Donati footage. Words can never describe his playing, and man those drums sounded thunderous. Anyone get to witness this performance first hand?

[Tex12]

http://www.pearldrum.com/wnamm-vid-virgil.htm

[Anduin]

The sound quality is so bad it's almost unwatchable. And the poor guy looks like he's in a cage!

[Adam]

The sound quality is so bad it's almost unwatchable. And the poor guy looks like he's in a cage!

There almost seems to be some kind of netagivity about Virgil on this board. The sound quality is fine to me

[Stu_Strib]

Yes that audio is way over-compressed.. Horrible. But then again, what drum websites actually have well designed and cutting edge web design?

As for the negativity, I used to see it on other threads. Here, I guess its just a matter of taste? I have only seen what few clips are on here to judge. Based on that one, he's obviously skilled. Maybe it's those toms way up in the air that put people in defense mode (kinda gimmicky, don't you think?).

That polyrhythm stuff he does near the 1/3rd mark of the vid is cool (with the constant bass drum pattern, then he changes his hand patterns to demonstrate the different polyrhythmic feels possible).

[burnthehero]

I can only take Virgil Donati in small doses. He's an incredible drummer, no doubt, but his playing bores me pretty quickly. He's a little too non-musical for me.

[Stu_Strib]

I can only take Virgil Donati in small doses. He's an incredible drummer, no doubt, but his playing bores me pretty quickly. He's a little too non-musical for me.

Yeah that was a pretty monotonous solo after awhile.

[toteman2]

That one is from the 2005 NAMM show in the Pearl Booth.

This one http://www.youtube.com/w/virgil-donati-drum-solo?v=Eq-wpsbwv_w&search=virgil%20donati

It's a short clip from NAMM 2006. The sound quality is not that great, but still very much worth watching. Sky-Toms in full effect for the crowd at the show. While I agree they can be a bit "gimmicky", he finds very creative ways to use them.

For those not into the solo aspect of drumming, he does lead the band in with a nice groove to end.

[Aidan]

He is not musical enough, I mean he is not musical the way I LIKE IT! Does he not know that there is only one way too express one's musicality? I wish he would tone it down a bit. And his technique is too pristine. Wish he was a little sloppier and less fluid. His chops are too blistering and over the top wish his playing wish they were a little more pedestrian. His independence is too advanced and complex wish he was more elementary and unoriginal. His feet are too stinking developed, COME ON! Message too Virgil, you are too good can you please suck a little more so we can feel better about ourselves. We wish we were 1/10 as good as you. We got nothing better to do than trash you for being a Pioneer in the drumming world for arguably pushing the technical and creative boundaries farther ahead than any other drummer of the last 10 to 12 years even guy's like Lang, Marco, Chambers, Mangini, Phillips etc. have said as much, and for drawing HUGE crowds at NAMM and wherever you go.

[Will-Myster]

I liked it.
Thanks for sharing it.


Will.

[FloEy]

VIRGIL IS GOD!!!!!! yeah its like........hes jus so good! lol I swear give it ten years and all the drummers out there are going to sound like machines lol.

[finnhiggins]

VIRGIL IS GOD!!!!!! yeah its like........hes jus so good! lol I swear give it ten years and all the drummers out there are going to sound like machines lol.

Yay.

don'tbashringodon'tbashringo

[Stu_Strib]

Well after checking out some more stuff to investigate the possibilities to why people might bash this guy, here is my conclusion.

I think he plays too much like Steve Smith, Dave Weckl, Vinnie C. et.al, but not as well. I think he should make his own niche and be a monster ROCK player and cut back on the fusiony stuff that (just my opinion) he doesn't pull off very well.

He strikes me as one of Steve Smith's better students, and not a peer. I liked some stuff I saw with him jamming with his band better!

And yes he is way better than me, but for the 427th time, what does that matter???? We are talking about Virgil Donati here, not Stu Strib. I would gladly take lessons from Virgil, and I would have no qualms telling him I think he sounds a bit like a student of Steve Smith instead of a genuinely unique drummer. He might punch me, but oh well ;-)

Sorry, I'm trying to be Simon Cowell-esque here with some sort of witty analogy, but that's all I got.

[Bernhard]

Just at the moment received a picture from Alex Solca - photographer for Modern Drummer.

Hope you like it too...

Bernhard

[Aidan]

That is a first. Virgil sounds like Steve Smith and Dave Weckl. In 12 years of listening to Virg that is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that he even remotely sounds like those guys. Virgil absolutely has his own sound and it is nothing close to those guys WOW!! And lets just say that he wont be needing to take lessons from Weckl or Smith any time soon. No actually it is Dave Weckl that has said that Virgil is SO GOOD! that he cannot imagine the time and discipline to develop his technique and chops.

And hey Floey and Finnihgans or whatever lets hear your playing. Come on let hear your contributions to the music world. I got an idea go knock on the doors of Steve Weingart, Brett Garsed, Bunny Brunel, Tony Mac, Mitch Forman, Tom Kennedy, or Allan Holdsworth and on and on and show them how terrific you are as players and not just windbags sucking on sour grapes and maybe they might want to record an album with you or go down to the Potato and Jam, since you are all that. You might even get to charge people 20 bucks a pop since you are that good. You guys are nothing but blowhards. What you play with your local jazz band, I am impressed. Or know do not tell me you actually got some guys together to record an album. The locals really like your playing GREAT! I am really impressed now. AH you have read many books on what a REAL drummer is, I see lots of head knowledge. It hurts to know you will never have the stature of certain artists that you like to put down.

I got one next time PASIC rolls around and Virg is playing to a thousand people, walk up grab the microphone and say, "hey everyone do not waste your time with this guy he is pathetic, I am hear to show you what real drumming is all about and then you can actually show Virg how to really play musically. And you might want to ask Steve Smith or Vinnie or Weckl or Chambers or Lang why they are sitting in the crowd wasting their time watching Virg. You might want to enlighten them. Then you might ask why PASIC did not invite you to play before a thousand people. Or you might just want to "kill them softly with your amazing words of wisdom and insight. I am sure they will enjoy the comedy routine.

[Bernhard]

Well, the circle of life.......the way of every Virgil or Thomas Thread on every Drumforum in the world: first praising, then discussing, then bashing, then trashing, then deleting and then wining and then restarting....

I can't say, if the glass is half empty or half full, but the clock goes to 12 high noon soon.

But after the deleting the whole thread: A new thread will start with again more brighter shining arguments.....what a waste of practice time...

Ahh, and Aidan: Critics have the right to critizice.....it's their job - don't ask them to drum.
And great Drummers: you NEVER hear a bad word from them, they are not critics and they don't do it either.

Bernhard

[FloEy]

That is a first. Virgil sounds like Steve Smith and Dave Weckl. In 12 years of listening to Virg that is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that he even remotely sounds like those guys. Virgil absolutely has his own sound and it is nothing close to those guys WOW!! And lets just say that he wont be needing to take lessons from Weckl or Smith any time soon. No actually it is Dave Weckl that has said that Virgil is SO GOOD! that he cannot imagine the time and discipline to develop his technique and chops.

And hey Floey and Finnihgans or whatever lets hear your playing. Come on let hear your contributions to the music world. I got an idea go knock on the doors of Steve Weingart, Brett Garsed, Bunny Brunel, Tony Mac, Mitch Forman, Tom Kennedy, or Allan Holdsworth and on and on and show them how terrific you are as players and not just windbags sucking on sour grapes and maybe they might want to record an album with you or go down to the Potato and Jam, since you are all that. You might even get to charge people 20 bucks a pop since you are that good. You guys are nothing but blowhards. What you play with your local jazz band, I am impressed. Or know do not tell me you actually got some guys together to record an album. The locals really like your playing GREAT! I am really impressed now. AH you have read many books on what a REAL drummer is, I see lots of head knowledge. It hurts to know you will never have the stature of certain artists that you like to put down.

I got one next time PASIC rolls around and Virg is playing to a thousand people, walk up grab the microphone and say, "hey everyone do not waste your time with this guy he is pathetic, I am hear to show you what real drumming is all about and then you can actually show Virg how to really play musically. And you might want to ask Steve Smith or Vinnie or Weckl or Chambers or Lang why they are sitting in the crowd wasting their time watching Virg. You might want to enlighten them. Then you might ask why PASIC did not invite you to play before a thousand people. Or you might just want to "kill them softly with your amazing words of wisdom and insight. I am sure they will enjoy the comedy routine.

whoa there dude, think before you type. if anything i was complimenting virgil, his playing is inhuman and i happen to be a fan. I dont know what your problem is but please take it out somewhere else.

[TitanSound]

I got one next time PASIC rolls around and Virg is playing to a thousand people, walk up grab the microphone and say, "hey everyone do not waste your time with this guy he is pathetic

I never saw anyone calling him pathetic.

This is a public forum and people will have thier opinions about things that you may not like, no point in being an arse about it though.

I am not a great fan of Virgil Donati but I admire his immense talent, I think thats pretty much the feeling of a few people on these forums.

[Aidan]

Floey my bad. But it sure is hard to take " give it ten years and every drummer will sound like a machine LOL" as a compliment. I have read this statement a thousand times about different drummers and it has never been in a good light. But I have no right to not take your word as truth, I apologize. I do not apologize to the others that have used this and other forums to trash certain drummers repeatedly. Do we not have better things to do than repeatedly tear down other drummers who have accomplished far more than most ever will. Not once will you find me trashing another drummer even If I do not necessarily enjoy their playing. We all like who we like why go around openly ripping apart others. It honestly seems like some get a kick out of doing this. Why do it? What does it accomplish? It comes across as just foolish banter by people who seem to get a morbid joy by constantly critisizing others. Virg, Lang, Marco among others they are constantly getting crap by others who obviously are not a fraction of the drummer and musician that the aforementioned are. And the "Oh I am just giving my honest opinion, is that not the reason forums exist" statement got old ten years ago. Sharing ones thought in respectful manner is one thing but taking constant jabs at someone like a broken record player is too obvious to what the intent really is.

I apologize Bernhard for reacting to certain "critics" repeatedly foolish comments. It is your board and I need to respect your wishes, no matter how hard it is not to respond to the kind of crap that constantly comes up.

And Bernhard your statements are VERY true about the truly Great drummers having better things to do than put down other musicians.

[TitanSound]

There is a fine line between what one person interprets as putting someone down. You started trashing people who you know nothing about because they do not agree with you.

If you dont like someones opinion say so but dont say stuff along the lines of

You guys are nothing but blowhards. What you play with your local jazz band, I am impressed. Or know do not tell me you actually got some guys together to record an album. The locals really like your playing GREAT! I am really impressed now. AH you have read many books on what a REAL drummer is, I see lots of head knowledge. It hurts to know you will never have the stature of certain artists that you like to put down.

Because you are doing exactly what you are protesting against.

[tambian89]

I definately agree with the Adam's post (the opening statement). Virgil Donati has such skill, such a sense of his drum set that he seems almost the ideal drummer. He has some of the fastest double bassing I've heard (and I listen to a lot of thrash, death, and speed metal), and he has an amzing sense of rhythm. I don't know if he is known for use of odd time signatures, but his drum parts are amazing. I think he is probaly the most skilled drummer of all genres.

[tambian89]

I also saw live at astoria, and can agree that Donati plays an insane solo at the end. I think he is the perfect complimentary part for Steve Vai. I consider Donati a drum virtuoso, just as Vai is a guitar virtuoso.

[DogBreath]

I apologize Bernhard for reacting to certain "critics" repeatedly foolish comments. It is your board and I need to respect your wishes, no matter how hard it is not to respond to the kind of crap that constantly comes up.

And Bernhard your statements are VERY true about the truly Great drummers having better things to do than put down other musicians.
Calling someone else's opinion "crap" because you disagree with them is just silly. And I think that what Bernhard may have been saying is that you should have better things to do than to put other drummers down. Stating an opinion is fine, but calling people blowhards and putting down their gigs isn't helpful or welcome here.

/2 cents

[Coz]

There is a fine line between what one person interprets as putting someone down. You started trashing people who you know nothing about because they do not agree with you.

If you dont like someones opinion say so but dont say stuff along the lines of



Because you are doing exactly what you are protesting against.

Well said Titan!

Do you think pros sit around worrying about getting put down on a forum? Music is art and art is subjective and opinoins are like bum holes - everyones got one!

We can never please everyone and I think any publicity is good publicity. If someone said I was crap (and I'm sure they have) that meant they had to at least listened to me and that gives me even more determination to be better not only as a musician but as a person.

Coz

[Stu_Strib]

That is a first. Virgil sounds like Steve Smith and Dave Weckl. In 12 years of listening to Virg that is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that he even remotely sounds like those guys.


Evidently you didnt' listen to the video that started this thread then ;-)

And for the 4,278TH time, what does Finnhiggin's playing ability have to do with the topic at hand?

Look, I was just exploring the reasons behind the phenomena of mass Virgil Donati "distaste". I don't think anyone here is saying anything bad about him. He definitely has a better unique sound on other clips that I've found SINCE this one.

[finnhiggins]

Ahh, and Aidan: Critics have the right to critizice.....it's their job - don't ask them to drum.
And great Drummers: you NEVER hear a bad word from them, they are not critics and they don't do it either.


Well, it's a nice idea. But the most savage things I've ever heard anybody say about Virgil came from a guy with a page here on Drummerworld, so I must admit that doesn't reflect my experience.

As for Aidan, mate... you can't even figure out when somebody is on your side of an argument, how do you expect to win it? As for my playing, go rummage over in the "Your Playing" forum if you feel the urge. Nothing overly special, but since when has that devalued an opinion? Or do you have to be Steven Spielberg to say that Ewe Boll is a lousy director?

[Bernhard]

Well, it's a nice idea. But the most savage things I've ever heard anybody say about Virgil came from a guy with a page here on Drummerworld, so I must admit that doesn't reflect my experience.


Ok, the exception confirms the rule - as we say in Switzerland....

Bernhard

[DogBreath]

Well, it's a nice idea. But the most savage things I've ever heard anybody say about Virgil came from a guy with a page here on Drummerworld, so I must admit that doesn't reflect my experience.
Right, a guy, out of the hundreds featured on DrummerWorld. So I guess maybe that does prove the point?

[Aidan]

DogBreath I hear what you are saying, but if I am a blowhard for getting tired of guys repeatedly putting down others drumming contributions than so be it. I happen to know that others here STRONGLY agree with me. Did I put down someones gig or ability NO!! I made the point that guys get on here and say well I have a gig and play drums or read a book about this or that or talked to someone about this drummer therefore I have a right to trash others who have accomplished far more than those who do the trashing, which I do not agree with. A blowhard in my opinion is someone always talking themselves up whether it is their ability or knowledge of what is real music and their narrow point of view on what REAL drumming is and is not and constantly putting others abilities or contributions down, which happens here quite abit. Again I have not trashed anyone about their drumming at all but get tired of a forum being used as a sledgehammer against certain drummers. Again I find it very bizarre that no names in the drumming and music world(not that you have to be WELL known to be a good drummer) are the ones who the MAJORITY of the time are tearing someone else down who has the resume and the ability behind them.

Yeah I did check out your stuff Finn lets just leave it at that.

[finnhiggins]

Right, a guy, out of the hundreds featured on DrummerWorld. So I guess maybe that does prove the point?

Or not - not being in the habit of regularly talking to most of the guys on here I wouldn't know. What can I say? Too small a sample size to draw conclusions, seeing as I've only met a couple of the people on here.

On the other hand, I do remember quite clearly that all of my teachers at music school definitely had opinions as to what they liked and disliked in drumming, and weren't afraid to share them if the topic came up. I remember one teacher I had a lot of respect for making it quite clear he was no fan of Chad Smith. Fair enough - it wasn't his thing, and I don't think it would bother Chad any to know that some random British drummer doesn't think he's the best thing since Tony Williams. Equally, while I disagreed on the subject, somebody thinking that Chad Smith is not particularly worthy of respect as a drummer doesn't dimish my enjoyment of what he's done. Or there's Joe Morris' comment over on another thread about Mike Portnoy. Clearly Joe is not a fan there - that's his opinion and he's entirely entitled to it, even if he can't sit down and bash out the latest Dream Theater album without a moment of thought on the subject.

So I guess my take is... If you enjoy Virgil Donati's playing... all power to you! But he clearly is a player who is a cause of some contention, and it's clearly not because he's (objectively) amazingly awesome and people are just bitter on him - most people expressing a distaste for Virgil tend to have an alternative they'd suggest. Personally on the listening front I'd rather listen to Marco Minneman or Grant Collins because I do, generally, find their playing a bit more shaped, structured and musical. That's just taste, it's not because I can play as well as either of them so I'm somehow not jealous of their chops anymore. I guess my issue here is that it seems like you're allowed to have taste in drummers as long as you don't dislike Virgil Donati, or his little self-appointed Internet Minions will come out and lambast you for your arrogance. Not addressing moderation here, just the likes of Aidan.

I'd die to have Virgil's chops. He's done an amazing thing in building them, and I'm as happy as the next guy to stand around in sheer amazement if we're going to have a technical discussion of the mechanics of what he's doing. But personally, I really can't stand what he does musically, either solo or in a band. But it seems like somehow my right to a musical opinion is entirely negated by the amount of time Virgil has spent polishing his single stroke roll? I don't get that. Slipknot have clearly put a fair bit of time into their music, but that doesn't mean that saying "I really can't stand Slipknot" is off-limits for anybody. Ultimately, nobody gets into music unless they're comfortable with somebody saying "Hey, you guys really suck!". If you're that thin-skinned you tend to get out of the industry pretty fast.

[NUTHA JASON]

well i'm a blow hard and i think virgil has incredible chops, can groove but is not my cup of tea by a very long shot.

j

[Stu_Strib]

well i'm a blow hard and i think virgil has incredible chops, can groove but is not my cup of tea by a very long shot.

j

That is the most poignant post ever. I second the sentiment.

I'm with Finn too. This is a discussion thread about good/bad/ugly/nice/different, whatever. If all we ever do is say nice things for things that people post that are really bad, then this would be a dull web site.

[Aster]

Just for the record, I had taken a whole "2 lessons" from Virgil Donati when I lived in Melbourne, Australia, (where I grew up) some 15 years ago way before Virgil became the mega star drummer he is today. He is a very talented and gifted drummer..............and deserves to be up there with all the greats !

[Aidan]

Hats off to you Nutha Jason, you proved that someone can give praise where it is due and yet at the same time say someone is not neccessarily your cup of tea without making someone look or sound bad, BIG hand clap.

Aidan

[toteman2]

Well after checking out some more stuff to investigate the pos