Square sized toms

[D A D O]

Hi!
What do you think about square sized toms. 12x12, 13x13... I would really like to have 12, 13, 14, 16, 18 toms. I adore deep and big drums. Does anybody have that kind of drums? What's your opinion on that?

[Synthetik]

Hi!
What do you think about square sized toms. 12x12, 13x13... I would really like to have 12, 13, 14, 16, 18 toms. I adore deep and big drums. Does anybody have that kind of drums? What's your opinion on that?

This is probably covered elsewhere but...

If you are looking for resonance and a big sound overall (like metal and rock) they work fine. Some people have problems with the tom height over the kick.

The other possible downside is lack of tuning range and a bit less definition compared to standard or fast depths. Not a good choice for jazz.

Deep tubs do look cool and sound good anyway.

[TopCat]

Aren't they called power toms? or were power toms just 10" deep?

I don't think i'm old enough to remember..how we miss the 80's..ahem.

[Drummer Karl]

Uhhh! I like exactly the opposite, shallow toms or toms with the sizes 10x7" or 10x8"
really love those shallow toms, I have one Tama Superstar, sizes are 10x8, 12x9 and 14x11 and I have a Basix Short Stack Custom wich has the sizes 10x4, 12x5 and 14x12...I love them because it looks better in my eyes and it also sounds better for me.

Karl

[jangus]

Hahaha thats gotta be a record. Karl really likes his shallow toms

[Drummin_Dan]

Deja Vu much?















Deja Vu much?














Deja Vu much?...maybe?

[Deathmetalconga]

I have a set completely in square sizes - 8 10 12 14 toms and 18 bass drum (13 by 4 snare).

I love the sound: big, primitive and powerful. Longer shells keep the sound inside longer, making it fatter and richer. In fact, my drums are scalloped inside specifically to keep the sound inside longer, making them sound even taller.

The trade-off is that you must pay close attention to tuning. The longer overtones stay in the drums, the more chance they will have to cause mischief. Thicker heads will help control the overtones and reveal punch.

As for playing suitability, I play world fusion music and they're terrific. Historically, drums are usually taller than they are wide - congas, djembes, tablas, dunduns, ashikos, darbukas, batas, marching snares, etc. In fact, shallow drums are much less common in history: tars and bodhrans come to mind and that's it. The trap set is still a very new instrument, only 100 years old, and other drum configurations have been developing for centuries or millenia.

I don't see why you couldn't play these sizes for jazz. Hopefully the genre isn't that fossilized.

www.terrasonus.com

[gmrakich]

Moon

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2263/158536422110bgpp9.jpg

Shallow is the new deep.

[The Ploughman]

I am thinking you gotta be too young to remember the 80s, when guys spent more time combing their hair than girls did, male anorexia was the in thing, and a seven foot tall man standing on his throne could barely be seen above his eyeballs while behind a drumset.

I think there was an Abraham Lincoln quote that covers square sized tom drums:

For people who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like."

I like traditional sizes. 8x12 or, 9x13 on the bass drum, one or the other, but not both and, 16x16, 16x18 on the floors, preferably both.

[The Ploughman]

I am thinking you gotta be too young to remember the 80s, when guys spent more time combing their hair than girls did, male anorexia was the in thing, and a seven foot tall man standing on his throne could barely be seen above his eyeballs while behind a drumset.

I think there was an Abraham Lincoln quote that covers square sized tom drums:

For people who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like."

I like traditional sizes. 8x12 or, 9x13 on the bass drum, one or the other, but not both and, 16x16, 16x18 on the floors, preferably both.

[The Ploughman]

I am thinking you gotta be too young to remember the 80s, when guys spent more time combing their hair than girls did, male anorexia was the in thing, and a seven foot tall man standing on his throne could barely be seen above his eyeballs while behind a drumset.

I think there was an Abraham Lincoln quote that covers square sized tom drums:

For people who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like."

I like traditional sizes. 8x12 or, 9x13 on the bass drum, one or the other, but not both and, 16x16, 16x18 on the floors, preferably both.

[Deathmetalconga]

"Traditional" is relative.

For a young instrument like the drum set, shallow shells are the norm. But for most of recorded human history, drums have overwhelmingly been square or deep, with a few exceptions as I note above.

www.terrasonus.com

[D A D O]

Yeah, well I don't care if someone can see me or not behind the kit. It does look cool when you have deep toms. But I like the sound of deep drums. I play metal and rock so those sizes would really fit. Actually, it would be cool to play and not to be seen. All the chicks from the crowd would be "Ohhhhh he's gotta be some hot sexy dude." And then I poke my head behind my toms and the chicks run away. Ha! A joke.
Visual factor is important a bit to me but sound is more important.

10x10, 12x12, 13x13, 14x14 toms, 16x16, 18x18 floor toms, 2x 22x24 bass drums, 8x14 snare drum.
These are my dream sizes
Pretty cool ha?

[Synthetik]

Moon

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2263/158536422110bgpp9.jpg

Shallow is the new deep.

It's always nice seeing another one of Bill Dettamore's masterpeices...Nice kit!!!

[harryconway]

Well I do remember the 80's and even power sizes were not square. 12x10, 13x11, 14x12 were common power sizes. 14x14, for example, is "traditionally" a floor tom size. And I have seen drummers mount 14x14's as rack toms. First case I know of was 1974, Pete Boot, drummer for Budgie on the "In For The Kill" album. Second case being Alex Van Halen, also in 1974. I love big drums, but I go with "traditional" sizes rather than "power" sizes. 26x14 kick, 15x12 rack, 16x16 and 18x16 floor toms.

[Mapex589]

I have a Ludwig Super Classic set that has square sized toms. 10x10, 12x12, 13x13, 14x14 and an 18x22 bass drum. I have had the set for about 16 years and it has been a great set for rock. I recently purchased a new Mapex M Birch kit (fusion sizes) so the Ludwig is now for sale.

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

The only "square" drums I have are my 16x16 floor toms. I have a couple deep rack toms though. They sound great, but I have to raise the rack bar so they fit over the kick, and I have to bump my throne up a notch.

[Supersteve]

I am thinking of going with "Traditional" sizes in a kit. But that size is quite hard to find or it called "Standard" or "Rock Size".


I wonder where the current trend in tom size is heading?

[Stu_Strib]

Moon

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2263/158536422110bgpp9.jpg

Shallow is the new deep.

I rarely include pictures when I quote someone, but this is totally worth a second look!

Wow!

And for the record, Steve Gadd has been doing the whole "shallow is the new deep" since, well, deep became popular in the 70s.

I have a 10x7.5 tom and personally, I can't tell the difference between it and the 10x10 version. So for me, the benefit of a shallow tom is it is easier to position and it is less mass to lug around. I am considering picking up a 10x9ish tom and moving my 10x7.5 to where an 8x7 tom would go. I'm curious to see if I can get enough tuning range between the two of them to be worth the $$$ though.

Floor toms are different for me. I prefer "square" floor toms for a more cannon like sound. I never liked my 14x11 suspended toms, but I love my 14x14 floor tom!

[Synthetik]

As a kid, I had a power tom kit. And frankly, the drums sounded big-but slow. My friend had a normal depth kit. His had much more punch and attack. It sounded more exciting to me for more types of music.

[Supersteve]

As a kid, I had a power tom kit. And frankly, the drums sounded big-but slow. My friend had a normal depth kit. His had much more punch and attack. It sounded more exciting to me for more types of music.

So big toms look like they are louder but really are not? Is fusion the way to go then?

[Synthetik]

So big toms look like they are louder but really are not? Is fusion the way to go then?

The bigger toms had this larger presence. But the shallower toms had sharper, and more cutting attack. IMO, big toms are good for heavier music, but not defined enough to span too many genres. Like I said before, I never met a jazzer that liked power toms.

[Deathmetalconga]

The bigger toms had this larger presence. But the shallower toms had sharper, and more cutting attack. IMO, big toms are good for heavier music, but not defined enough to span too many genres. Like I said before, I never met a jazzer that liked power toms.

I have square sizes and I get plenty of definition by using thick heads to control the overtones. You can't use the same heads for shallow drums as you do for thicker drums and expect the same kind of attack. Thicker heads would choke the brilliance of a shallow tom, but on a deep tom, the control the overtones better.

www.terrasonus.com

[D A D O]

I belive that Genera G2's would fit for batter side and G1's on the bottom. Right?

[Deathmetalconga]

I belive that Genera G2's would fit for batter side and G1's on the bottom. Right?

I don't use Evans much so I'm not familiar with their designations. I use a thick batter head (Fiberskyns) and a medium resonant head (Ambassadors), but I don't know what the Evans equivalents would be.

My drums are also solid-shell ironwood, so they are extremely resonant and absorb very little sound. Most of the sound comes out the drum or passes through the shell, since there are no plies or glue to dampen the sound. So for my drums, thick heads are especially important to control ring.

www.terrasonus.com

[D A D O]

Hmmm I think that G2s are equialent to Remo Pinstripes and G1s are maybe like Ambassadors.

[ZDrums24]

the deep toms can be really cool. my dad has an early starclassic performer (7 ply shells or something like that) and they are almost square sizes. the drums really sing and have a ton of punch, even with g1's.

i still like my toms better. same series but thinner (5 ply) and shallower (10x8 instead of a 10x10, 14x11 over a 14x13, etc). way more life and far more versitile. thinner shells and shallower depths have more intensity, as opposed to the huge slow sound of square depths. sorta like a falcon to a hippo or something. i still have pretty big diameters (10 12 14 16 18) though. its a taste thing.

i havent seen or heard of a square 18". my 18" is an 18" x 16" do they really exist outside of custom set ups?

[Deathmetalconga]

My bass drum is 18 by 18. The construction is exactly the same as the toms, so you could turn it over and convert it. I would use a Gauger Dynamount to suspend it from its legs as it's too heavy to mount on a stand.

www.terrasonus.com

[ZDrums24]

i just found another post discussing 18x18 floor toms, but i cant find it again (its late, so sue me). basically i guess mapex makes them, but really, you have to custom order them.

[Deathmetalconga]

Hi!
What do you think about square sized toms. 12x12, 13x13... I would really like to have 12, 13, 14, 16, 18 toms. I adore deep and big drums. Does anybody have that kind of drums? What's your opinion on that?

I now recall a fellow named Newman Taylor Baker has square toms, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16. Don't know about his snare or bass drum.

Big and deep drums sound really dramatic. They're the sonic equivalent of a low-hanging set of testicles and they're not for everyone or every genre.

But I wouldn't trade mine for the world. Go for it!

[D A D O]

I now recall a fellow named Newman Taylor Baker has square toms, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16. Don't know about his snare or bass drum.

Big and deep drums sound really dramatic. They're the sonic equivalent of a low-hanging set of testicles and they're not for everyone or every genre.

But I wouldn't trade mine for the world. Go for it!


Hahaha. I do play some pop or fusion or anything I hear but only when I'm practicing at home. My genre is metal and rock so it doesn't matter to me if they don't fit into pop, jazz etc. because I play that kind of music for myself and rock and metal in bands.

[ZDrums24]

i still recomend something a little less extreme, for my personal taste. if youve heard neil pearts kit lately, you might see what im talking about. his toms go balls to the walls, and if im not mistaken, they are pretty middle of the road depth wise.

[Synthetik]

i still recomend something a little less extreme, for my personal taste. if youve heard neil pearts kit lately, you might see what im talking about. his toms go balls to the walls, and if im not mistaken, they are pretty middle of the road depth wise.

Neil Peart
DW drums
Drums
Black Mirra Lacquer with Gold Hardware
16x22 Bass Drum
5x13 Snare Drum
5x14 Snare Drum
7x10 Tom-Tom
8x12 Tom-Tom
9x13 Tom-Tom
12x15 Tom-Tom
13x15 Tom-Tom
16x16 Tom-Tom
16x18 Tom-Tom

Looks like one 1 square size. All else are FAST ratios. But this listing is in error, I know he uses a 8x7 tom as well.

[Stu_Strib]

Hmmm I think that G2s are equialent to Remo Pinstripes and G1s are maybe like Ambassadors.

Ermm, not really.

G2s are 2 plies of 7mm mylar.
Emperors are 2 plies of 7mm mylar as well.

G1s are 1 ply of 10mm mylar
Ambassadors are 1 ply of 10mm mylar

This is why I have no preference in these heads...because they are the same thing (basically).

[Synthetik]

Not to mention that the pinstripes are bonded at the edges, G2's are not. The pins will dampen overtones to a greater degree. Ergo, not equivalent designs.

[Deathmetalconga]

i still recomend something a little less extreme, for my personal taste. if youve heard neil pearts kit lately, you might see what im talking about. his toms go balls to the walls, and if im not mistaken, they are pretty middle of the road depth wise.


Nothing "extreme" at all about a drum being as deep as it is wide. Throughout history, the vast majority of all drums have been much deeper than wide. Only the drumset - a relative newcomer at just 100 years old - considers shallow drums the norm.

I played a gig last night with my square size set and the sound blew people away. People just wanted to come up to the set and see how it was making this beautiful rich tone.

www.terrasonus.com

[Synthetik]

The Rogers kit I listened to from 1968 had floor toms deeper than square. They were 16x16 and 18x?? But they were resonant as all get out.

Power toms continued from the late 60's to the 80's. But since drums got more consistant, and tastes changed than standard and fast became the norm.

For rock and metal, the big toms are great. Vinnie Paul uses them still.

[Deathmetalconga]

The Rogers kit I listened to from 1968 had floor toms deeper than square. They were 16x16 and 18x?? But they were resonant as all get out.

Power toms continued from the late 60's to the 80's. But since drums got more consistant, and tastes changed than standard and fast became the norm.

For rock and metal, the big toms are great. Vinnie Paul uses them still.

I'm using these for world fusion and they're terrific - big, primitive, powerful sound. We tend to think a newcomer instrument like the trap kit is the center of drumming, but over history, drums have traditionally been deep. This kit is ideally suited for ethnic styles because it really does harken back to the tradition of the drum as an instrument with deep proportions.

You could use them for jazz just as well. They wouldn't sound like a traditional jazz set, but I've heard people playing jazz erhu so the genre can accommodate just about anything.

The sustain means fast rolls produce a smooth, rich glissando unattainable with shallow drums. Of course, these drums don't articulate quite as tightly as a shallow set because the sound is simply fuller.

But if agility of tone were such an issue, I don't think we'd hear the floor tom played as a ride cymbal on so many songs (i.e., Gary Glitter's Rock and Roll, Go Gos We Got the Beat, many more).When a tom is played like a ride cymbal, it's almost always the floor tom, which is usually the only drum in a standard set that's square.

What's really odd is that square sizes are making a comeback via the addition of floor toms. Used to be, people had one floor tom. Now they have fewer rack toms and two or more floor toms, and these floor toms are often square sizes. People prize the richness of tone that a badass deep drum produces.

www.terrasonus.com

[Deathmetalconga]

I have a Ludwig Super Classic set that has square sized toms. 10x10, 12x12, 13x13, 14x14 and an 18x22 bass drum. I have had the set for about 16 years and it has been a great set for rock. I recently purchased a new Mapex M Birch kit (fusion sizes) so the Ludwig is now for sale.

That is a really beautiful set! The square sizes look and sound so dramatic, like drums that are not afraid to be drums.

[ZDrums24]

Nothing "extreme" at all about a drum being as deep as it is wide. Throughout history, the vast majority of all drums have been much deeper than wide. Only the drumset - a relative newcomer at just 100 years old - considers shallow drums the norm.

www.terrasonus.com

See, I like that you have the sense to include world percussion in a primarily drumset oriented forum, but I think your application is bit off (IMHO).

These drums are all very deep, but keep in mind that very few of them have a bottom head (by the way, the modern marching snare is typically 14"x12", not square or deeper than square) without expecting the second side produce a different tone (batas for example). The addition of the bottom head makes up for the lack of depth trap drums have. My personal problem with large drums is that they are very limited. There are some really deep double headed drums from africa, but those are meant to be heard for long distances, and are truely only good for deep bass tones that will carry.

Some reasons why I find them limited:
You can only tune a deep drum so high before it becomes pretty obnoxious to the average listener.
Deep drums are very resonant and contain a ton of depth, but they are very slow sounding and lack the articulation and attack of smaller drums. small drums scream with life because you can hear every note played and the sound gets to the listner very quickly.
If you want that articulation, you have to buy thick heads and muffle your drums. Why spend all that money on deep shells so you can buy pricier heads to deaden all the beautiful tones you bought the shells for?
I know arguably you could use deep shells in jazz, but most other jazzers will probably fire you for using them. its just too much for the style. plus you really want shallower drums for their versitility. thats what a major component of jazz druming is: creating the most expressive and varied sounds without having to lug around a kit like portnoy's, peart's, or bozzio's. this typically entails shallow rack toms with fairly high pitched heads and maybe a floor tom or two for some impact.

im not saying square sizes are bad. i just believe they are fairly impractical for the average amature/semi-pro. plus factor in the extra car space and door frame sizes you would need to worry about.

really, i believe in a set up like peart's for rock drumming. start shallow up high and reach square depths in the floor toms. this gives your kit 1. a very versitle sound and b. the drums get a tonal variation with helps accentuate melodic movement on the drums.

its been a while since i posted, so forgive me if im being redundent:
my kit (starclassic performer, 5 ply toms, 7 ply bass, 8 ply snare, head diameter x depth):
14x5.5 snare
10x7
12x9
14x11
16x14 (suspended)
18x16 floor tom
22x18 kick
i use g2 batters (coated currently, but i go to clear sometimes) and g1 bottoms for toms, emad and an eq3 for the bass and a reverse pd/hazy 300 for the snare. tons of life and tons of tonal richness when tuned right.

On a side note:
I really like Chad Wackerman's approach to his drum sound. He goes with really thin heads for the life and energy that the vibration brings. he couldn't do that with exceptionally long shells. I just dont get the volume i want with thin heads.

[Deathmetalconga]

See, I like that you have the sense to include world percussion in a primarily drumset oriented forum, but I think your application is bit off (IMHO).

These drums are all very deep, but keep in mind that very few of them have a bottom head (by the way, the modern marching snare is typically 14"x12", not square or deeper than square) without expecting the second side produce a different tone (batas for example). The addition of the bottom head makes up for the lack of depth trap drums have. My personal problem with large drums is that they are very limited. There are some really deep double headed drums from africa, but those are meant to be heard for long distances, and are truely only good for deep bass tones that will carry.

Some reasons why I find them limited:
You can only tune a deep drum so high before it becomes pretty obnoxious to the average listener.
Deep drums are very resonant and contain a ton of depth, but they are very slow sounding and lack the articulation and attack of smaller drums. small drums scream with life because you can hear every note played and the sound gets to the listner very quickly.
If you want that articulation, you have to buy thick heads and muffle your drums. Why spend all that money on deep shells so you can buy pricier heads to deaden all the beautiful tones you bought the shells for?
I know arguably you could use deep shells in jazz, but most other jazzers will probably fire you for using them. its just too much for the style. plus you really want shallower drums for their versitility. thats what a major component of jazz druming is: creating the most expressive and varied sounds without having to lug around a kit like portnoy's, peart's, or bozzio's. this typically entails shallow rack toms with fairly high pitched heads and maybe a floor tom or two for some impact.

im not saying square sizes are bad. i just believe they are fairly impractical for the average amature/semi-pro. plus factor in the extra car space and door frame sizes you would need to worry about.

really, i believe in a set up like peart's for rock drumming. start shallow up high and reach square depths in the floor toms. this gives your kit 1. a very versitle sound and b. the drums get a tonal variation with helps accentuate melodic movement on the drums.

its been a while since i posted, so forgive me if im being redundent:
my kit (starclassic performer, 5 ply toms, 7 ply bass, 8 ply snare, head diameter x depth):
14x5.5 snare
10x7
12x9
14x11
16x14 (suspended)
18x16 floor tom
22x18 kick
i use g2 batters (coated currently, but i go to clear sometimes) and g1 bottoms for toms, emad and an eq3 for the bass and a reverse pd/hazy 300 for the snare. tons of life and tons of tonal richness when tuned right.

On a side note:
I really like Chad Wackerman's approach to his drum sound. He goes with really thin heads for the life and energy that the vibration brings. he couldn't do that with exceptionally long shells. I just dont get the volume i want with thin heads.

You have put a lot of thought into your response and I appreciate it.

As for drums throughout history, I'm hard pressed to think of very many at all that have two heads at all, regardless of depth. The bata and djun djun come to mind. Certainly no shallow drums. Really, the concept of depth is relative. I would argue a drum doesn't even start getting deep until its depth is greater than its diameter.

Depth is the biggest factor affecting tonal richness and articulation, but not the only one. Controlling overtones will focus the sound. Some people muffle, but I find Fiberskyns give me a more earthy, less plastic sound and I do no muffing of any kind on my drums, so their voices ring clear.

Really, it comes down to preference. Some people like a thick, rich, dramatic tone. Others like a thinner, sharper, well-defined tone. The former is more common in ethnic, hard rock and some pop styles. The latter is more common in jazz.

As for square sizes being hard to move, check out the list of sets on this site. Usually, the only toms that aren't square are the ones sized 10 to 13 inches. To either side of range, square sizes are very common. Odd how the biggest sizes are also the least shallow!

[Deathmetalconga]

Okay, now these are deep drums:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l53/Agogobell/Deeptoms.jpg

[ZDrums24]

That is absolutely nuts! freaking tubes of doom! man, at that point, i dont know. i gotta hear how absurd those things sound.

[Deathmetalconga]

That is absolutely nuts! freaking tubes of doom! man, at that point, i dont know. i gotta hear how absurd those things sound.

Deep, rich, badass. Drums that ain't afraid to be drums, that's how!

[ZDrums24]

i dont know, that might just be a bit much.... like peavy's tubes of doom. too much drum for their own good.

if they got the specs, heads, and tuning right, they could be pretty badass

[jAZZpLANTS]

Btw thats Frank Beard of ZZ Top. I can see how drums of such gross proportions could fit into a band that is all about fuzzy guitar and bass.

if your wanting to play metal, you may want to benefit from standard sized or shallow depth drum for their attack. People want to hear every hit these days, that is why many metal drummers try to make their kick sound like a click track. I play power sized drums, (10x12, 12x14, 16x16, 16x18 wx2 18x24) in a thrash metal band, and despite the awesome live sound you can achieve with proper tuning, It certainly turns your rolls into a nearly continuous roar. In a high-speed setting, this covers up your mistakes for you occasionally. That said, I think metal drummers who rock out on shallow toms make a statement about their regard for precision on the toms (think Brann Dailor).

And recording deep drums is more challenging since you have to eliminate most of their character and replace it w/ the closest match you can find on a drum module, which is a timely undertaking.

[Deathmetalconga]

i dont know, that might just be a bit much.... like peavy's tubes of doom. too much drum for their own good.

if they got the specs, heads, and tuning right, they could be pretty badass

Those are custom Tamas, 28 inches (though they don't look that deep, more like 24), 8, 10 and 12 inches.

[Deathmetalconga]

Btw thats Frank Beard of ZZ Top. I can see how drums of such gross proportions could fit into a band that is all about fuzzy guitar and bass.

if your wanting to play metal, you may want to benefit from standard sized or shallow depth drum for their attack. People want to hear every hit these days, that is why many metal drummers try to make their kick sound like a click track. I play power sized drums, (10x12, 12x14, 16x16, 16x18 wx2 18x24) in a thrash metal band, and despite the awesome live sound you can achieve with proper tuning, It certainly turns your rolls into a nearly continuous roar. In a high-speed setting, this covers up your mistakes for you occasionally. That said, I think metal drummers who rock out on shallow toms make a statement about their regard for precision on the toms (think Brann Dailor).

And recording deep drums is more challenging since you have to eliminate most of their character and replace it w/ the closest match you can find on a drum module, which is a timely undertaking.

Deep drums aren't just for metal. I play world fusion and because traditional ethnic drums are usually much deeper than wide, a deep, rich tom sound words well in this genre. Agreed, though: deep drums are bitchy and demand more attention to tuning. Check out any movie or soundtrack and whenever the director wants to evoke mystery, threat or passion, they use drums that sound deep. When they want to evoke speed, they use drums with short decay.

I tend to go the other way with the snare: 13 by 4. I like the agile, snappy response I get with a shallow snare and it's a good contrast to the thundering toms.