China and jazz

[OldHippy]

Should you look for anything different in a China cymbal to use it for jazz? I've heard them used for ride and soft crashes.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Man... I really don't get the question. It depends on what you're looking for! If you want a china sounding like a ride, then you're not looking for a china... If you want a new color in your kit that you can use in many ways (patterns, colouring or whatever) then get a china which's sound you really like and start trying new things.
My advise is that you get a rather big china (not less than 18"). I think it will match better in a jazzy sound. My favourite one is the Paiste 2002 18" china.
But that's just my oppinion, and I'n not a very old-jazzy guy. My oppinion is that it's time to change that old-drumset swingy sound for something more according to the actual possibilities. But as I said before... it's only my oppinion!

[OldHippy]

Where I heard it was on a recent Joey DeFrancesco recording where the drummer switched over and played ride on the china cymbal for a few bars, and other times crashed on it. Sounded like a neat effect.

[fooleeze]

A lot of times jazz drummers will use a larger china for things like that. It would typically be a 18 or 20" china, or often a 20" pang. The 20" Pang from the 70s was a popular one to use in this manner. Check out below, there's a recording of mine:

1970s Zildjian 20" Pang Sound File (http://www.cymbalcellar.com/sounds/20A70sPang.mp3)

[Muckster]

Chinese or china type cymbals have been incorporated into Jazz from the beginning and they certainly have thier place in all types of Jazz music, from big band to fusion.

I play a 20" Zildjian Swish (brilliant). Billy Cobham is the reason i picked one up.

I ride and crash on it.

[Muckster]

Chinese or china type cymbals have been incorporated into Jazz from the beginning and they certainly have thier place in all types of Jazz music, from big band to fusion.

I play a 20" Zildjian Swish (brilliant). Billy Cobham is the reason i picked one up.

I ride and crash on it.

[Drummer Karl]

yes, it should have a soft and sensitive sound, with a nice sizzle...so not trashy and loud, has to sound like an effect ride.
looks around for those "swish chinas"!

Karl

[fusssion]

Go check out The Jeff Hamilton Trio "The Best Things Happen....." from 2004 on Azica records. This is a MUST have jazz lovers CD. The first piece is "I love being here with you" and Jeff Hamilton is using his "Hammer Series" 22" china w/ rivets on this tune with accents in the first chorus.

Also, on track 6 or 7 (Poinciana) ...he rides on it quite a bit.

Check it out........

I've seen him live NUMEROUS times.......perfect example of a china in jazz.

[Cymbalrider]

The old fashioned way to blend this was a "PANG" cymbal. More of a ride with flanged edges that a China. Take a big one (22") and put rivets in it=Swish Knocker. I've seen a lot of drummers that still have the "swish" cymbals on their kits. (a famous example would be Ed Shaughnessy's SABIAN AA China 20" with rivets in it). You already mentioned guys like Hamilton having a softer version, so there's different types. There's dark chinas, fast chinas, big chinas, small ones, etc. SO just get one of those and either get it drilled for rivets or put a sizzle chain on it (which is much simpler when you want it to just be a normal china) Heck I've even been somewhere where I've had to play with a ZBT china.

[fusssion]

You already mentioned guys like Hamilton having a softer version,

Well, I don't see where Hamilton's was noted as "softer" ....it's not...it's quite the china, but, ...it's 22" also, w/ rivets .....so it's got a nice dynamic range and can be played in different situations to fit the music,....but make no mistake....when he cracks that thing from underneath (see his page on this site and the first video clip of him) it's a beauty!
[Caveat: the video on here I don't believe is his Bosphorus china, I'll have to look].

ON EDIT: No....the video is NOT his current china,....but that's the stroke I'm referring to.

Trust me, when he whacks this china,...there is nothing soft about it ;)

[syaoran05]

if youre using chinas for jazz and use it for both riding and crashing purposes, i suggest that you get a big one, 20-22 inches, either a zildjian oriental classic china, zildjian oriental china trash or the sabian one bernard purdie uses [forgot what model].

mount it right side up [stick-chewing-prone position] flat and low like a ride, but of course, higher than your ride. positioning it this way helps a lot. it wont chew your cymbals when you crash because you will be hitting the middle part of the bow instead of the edge. it will also offer better control for more complex and more dynamic riding. plus, you'll be able to use the bell [playing the bells of chinas are fantastic i tell you!]

[Synthetik]

Check out the recordings of Jack Dejohnette. One album he did IIRC "Special Edition" he incorporates a China. Jack is one of those drummers that flavors his work a lot.

[OldHippy]

I listened to all the chinas at Cymbalsonly and narrowed it down to a Meinl Byzance Traditional 20" and an Istanbul Sultan 20". The Istanbul is listed as a china pang, so what is the difference between a china and pang? Also, can you make a good choice just by listening to the sound samples? Neither one of these can be found in local stores. I am concerned that it will sound totally different at home and maybe one of the ones I eliminated would have sounded better.

[Skitch]

Should you look for anything different in a China cymbal to use it for jazz? I've heard them used for ride and soft crashes.

When I was touring with a country band, I played two weeks in Las Vegas during the National Finals Rodeo. We played the Gold Coast Casino and the day band was a dixieland band and I want to say the drummer's name was Paul - and he could play! He used a 20" Wuhan as an alternate ride and it sound fantastic!


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
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[Cymbalrider]

Swish Knockers are fun, I've got one now and I've taken it to combo gigs. Something more like a Bosphorus Hammer China w/ Rivets would be more ride like though