Everyone who want to track my free stroke progress

[abe]

Is there anyone who want to track my free stroke progress. I'll record some videos too. So anyone ready to teach me, coach me ... :) ?

I'm learning from Dom Famularo's book.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Is there anyone who want to track my free stroke progress. I'll record some videos too. So anyone ready to teach me, coach me ... :) ?

I'm learning from Dom Famularo's book.
If you are in New York, swing by my place and I'll take a look at your hands, no charge. I took lessons with Dom for 2 years, so I have a pretty good idea. DPS

[abe]

I damn, I'm not living in US ... :( But Anyway can you help me when I post here some videos or pictures?

[Miggle]

go ahead, im curious.

[abe]

This is maybe bit late...
Here's my first free stroke video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy18pn6MtQg

I know that I'm making my pinkies and fourth fingersout when sticks hit the drum but I can do it in right way too... but since I have seen Dom Famularo, Morello and Chapin doing same thing i didn't worry about that too much.

Anyway which hand positions of free stroke were the right one... I mean is hand almost only rotating or bending in correct free stroke,I feel that it's much more easy to mostly rotate hands(like when playing in trad grip)

[finnhiggins]

OK, things to watch out for:

* Those stray fingers. Not because there's anything inherantly bad about not having your fingers on the stick at a certain point during the stroke, but because you're having difficulty returning to your proper grip - I see re-adjustments at the front of the hand at various intervals because the stick is slipping inside your grip. This is happening because those back fingers are coming off the stick in a fairly uncontrolled way. Try to practice initially keeping those fingers on the stick - although jazzsnob will disagree with me ;) There's a lot of extra finger movement and re-adjustment going on that will just turn into a big mess once you try to take those strokes up to tempo in a single stroke roll.

* Lifting before the stroke. You tend to "pull back" a little bit before throwing the stick down. Don't do this. The free stroke is all about pushing down, no lifting involved. This is one thing you need to be REALLY strict with yourself on.

* Consistency between your hands. At various points your right hand is returning to a different position from your left - get a mirror for when you practice, it's really helpful.

As for the wrist-pronation-vs-rotation thing... Learn both. Rotational stuff feels a lot better on a snare directly in front of you, but when you start trying to play on toms with your arms extended a bit then I find it can get very messy and tense, and I tend to want to prefer to work from the wrists. I'd suggest learning the rotational approach second, just because it's easier to learn and adapt to than the other way around.

I don't have much time now, have to go to work. But I just want to say that your attitude is good, you're doing the right stuff and you're working on this stuff in a very structured, considered manner. You're going to get this down very well, and if you were my student I'd be damn proud. Keep it up.

[abe]

Damn, you gave in few words more CLEAR information than other guys in two hours ... They are nice and friendly but sometimes I have big mess in my had what to actually practice so when I found out about this free stroke concept I thought:''hey that's, the very basic something before moeller, heel-toe, twirls etc. I know that I'll learn later more but for begging just to have nice stable stroke and thats it... and I like it!''
Thanks man I'll work on things you said and soon make next video.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I agree with Finn's points except the one about "rotation". I am not sure what this means but I would stress no arm rotation. In German position, you are pushing the wrist down and letting the stick push it back up. The arm should stay in the same position as much as possible. When you are playing toms your hands will go where they want to go. If you practice French and German on the pad you have the extremes down, and your hand will go to the grip that is most comfortable to you.

Play "round the barrel" at all times. Sometimes you have a strange hand position, like at 2.20 in your video. But most of the time you have it down.

Watch your fulcrum: hold the stick like you have a pin through your thumb and the first or second knuckle of your forefinger (Direct quote from Dom). It takes time getting it right, but it is absolutely essential.

Great work all in all! Keep posting your progress, I would like to see you improving! DPS

[abe]

sorry- ''strange hand'' possitions were like a quetion ''Is this right possition or better that?''
Thanks for reply. I'll take seriously your advices!

[Womble]

I'm surprised two of our most illustrious technique experts haven't commented on the fact that you throw the stick down much faster with your left hand than your right. Are you left handed? Obviously your ultimate goal is to get the sticks travelling down at the same speed, to get your rolls nice and even at higher tempos.

[finnhiggins]

I'm surprised two of our most illustrious technique experts haven't commented...

I'm not!

I mean, I'm not an illustrious technique expert, my technique is about 50% total shite.

Also I'm not surprised, I had one watch of the video with no sound and then commented before running out the door to work ;)

[jazzsnob]

Hey finn, I think the fingers should pretty much always touch the sticks, it's just the squeezing that occurs during strokes when you have your fingers wrapped around like this. I think that abe should look at his grip very deeply and realy try and opening it up. And your pinkies shooting out is a bad thing, stop doing it.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I study with Dom as well.

You're on the right track. I especially like the fact that you recorded it. That's the attitude. Make sure that you use a mirror when you play. The mirror gives much more feedback than looking down at your hands.

Think DOWN. No wind-up as Finn mentioned. You must also throw the stick down as fast as your technique will allow. Volume is controlled by stick height, The stick is always moving as fast as possible. Watch those pinkys !

Also, when you bring your hands in front of you, your wrist is at a funny angle. Someone standing in front of you should not be able to see the palms of your hands while your sticks are raised.

Do this exercise for an hour or so nonstop at least 3-4 x weekly. Use the 2-50 exercise from Dom's book.

I worked with the 2-50 for 6 months (I have been playing for 20 years) after I met Dom.I started at around 80 BPM. I can now play it at Qtr note=300. Those hours of torture really paid off.

While playing on your kit. Try to imagine the rebound feeling from the pad on your kit. With practice, your playing will become more effortless.

[abe]

Thanks guys for advices I'll do my best..

I re-checked Dom's book and now I'm bit frustrated i can't interpret the pictures from book and I'm bit confussed...
Look at pictures

First picture is from Dom's book-you can clearly see that you need to bend the wrist back until its about 90 degrees.

In second(I think it's more natural ) picture i can clearly see that at list some kind of rotation is needed. I drew the arrows how think hands are moving- besides his half and low strokes are in harmony with my arrows, I think...

And two last pictures are snapshots of dons and Morello's free strokes... and they also show that Dom's seond illustration and my arrows are just right! what do you think?

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Hey finn, I think the fingers should pretty much always touch the sticks, it's just the squeezing that occurs during strokes when you have your fingers wrapped around like this. I think that abe should look at his grip very deeply and realy try and opening it up. And your pinkies shooting out is a bad thing, stop doing it.

The fingers should totally unfurl, and return to the starting position. The word "squeeze" I don't like, there is really no need to squeeze anything. If you keep your fulcrum between thumb and forefinger the other fingers will find their motion naturally.

In Dom's book there is a very challenging exercise called "exercise for the free stroke". Here, you let the stick fly back after the stroke and you practice setting it free by unfurling the three other fingers. DPS

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Thanks guys for advices I'll do my best..

I re-checked Dom's book and now I'm bit frustrated i can't interpret the pictures from book and I'm bit confussed...
Look at pictures

First picture is from Dom's book-you can clearly see that you need to bend the wrist back until its about 90 degrees.

In second(I think it's more natural ) picture i can clearly see that at list some kind of rotation is needed. I drew the arrows how think hands are moving- besides his half and low strokes are in harmony with my arrows, I think...

And two last pictures are snapshots of dons and Morello's free strokes... and they also show that Dom's seond illustration and my arrows are just right! what do you think?
Do not rotate your forearms, it is a common mistake but keep at it and you will get it. Of course, don't break your wrists by trying to contort them, but it is a stretching exercise, so just work on minimal arm rotation. Down, down, down.....DPS

[abe]

Thing is I'm ready to do it in any way that is right but look at picture... basicly as i understand first illustration form Dom's book is agains second, isn't it?

[Womble]

And two last pictures are snapshots of dons and Morello's free strokes... and they also show that Dom's seond illustration and my arrows are just right! what do you think?

I've been meaning to mention Morello's wrist movement, as he quite clearly rotates his wrists as they move up and down. In fact if I remember correctly he actually tells you to rotate the wrist in that video. I also find this by far the most natural movement. If I try lifting the wrist up without any rotation it feels tight and stresses the muscles and tendons, and as we all now, that's something we don't want.

Thanks for posting the Morello photos so I don't have to!

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I've been meaning to mention Morello's wrist movement, as he quite clearly rotates his wrists as they move up and down. In fact if I remember correctly he actually tells you to rotate the wrist in that video. I also find this by far the most natural movement. If I try lifting the wrist up without any rotation it feels tight and stresses the muscles and tendons, and as we all now, that's something we don't want.

Thanks for posting the Morello photos so I don't have to!

Don't try to analyze photos too much, there is a low limit of how much you can get out of them as pertains to movement. Position, perhaps, but motions, much less so.

If you feel tight, stressed etc doing something it may be because you lack the flexibility to do it correctly. It did not feel natural to me at first. Remember, I spent two years with Dom getting these movements correct, and it really takes many hours of practice with a mirror, going to the instructor for a reality check, revising, trying again etc etc. So don't trust your instincts too much.

There are, of course, slightly different ways of approaching the free stroke, but between Morello, Chapin, and Dom, rotating your forearm is not recommended. We can argue about what "wrist rotation" is, but the only thing to stay away from is forearm rotation. If you are doing that, go back, and isolate the wrist. It is hard to do without an instructor, but at least you can go in the right direction. Read over Dom's text often and repeatedly as you will notice he mentions pitfalls you may be going into that you didn't know the existence of before.

And to Abe: don't lose steam, keep doing it, and travel to see Dom first chance you get. You will not regret it!! Good luck, and keep posting your excellent questions, DPS

[finnhiggins]

When it comes to the whole rotational movement thing - I'll have to check back, but I'm in agreement with Womble - I actually remember Morello talking quite specifically about this on his video. Will find it and check.

EDIT: I checked. First, Morello ABSOLUTELY does rotate his wrist. If you can't see this then you must be blind.
DOUBLE EDIT: And Jim Chapin talks about the same thing about 20 minutes into his video.

Oh, and here's the kicker: Most of these teachers have talked about, as Jeff mentions below, not allowing your palm to be visible when you lift the stick back. Let's try an experiment:

* Start in the German grip, stick low to the pad.
* Raise the stick to 90 degrees, WITHOUT exposing your palm to the audience.
* Now do it again, but without rotating your forearm.

If you've succeeded at the third step without snapping any bones then I want to see video evidence.

[Drum-Head]

Wow great thread with much advice on something I am trying to learn also, thank you Abe for starting this.

Oh, and here's the kicker: Most of these teachers have talked about, as Jeff mentions below, not allowing your palm to be visible when you lift the stick back. Let's try an experiment:

* Start in the German grip, stick low to the pad.
* Raise the stick to 90 degrees, WITHOUT exposing your palm to the audience.
* Now do it again, but without rotating your forearm.

If you've succeeded at the third step without snapping any bones then I want to see video evidence.

As factual as it is, that end remark made me burst into laughter!

[abe]

3rd day - no coments - better you coment


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ_34A5ZU44

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

3rd day - no coments - better you coment


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ_34A5ZU44

Play round the barrel, arms parallel. Otherwise, it is looking very good! DPS

[Womble]

3rd day - no coments - better you coment

In response only to the comment I made: much better, the sticks are now travelling down at the same velocity nearly every time. Nice. So, are you left handed?!

[Womble]

Don't try to analyze photos too much, there is a low limit of how much you can get out of them as pertains to movement.

I quite agree about relying on photos, it's not a good idea. But as Finn has confirmed, Morello's video shows him unequivocably rotating his wrist. It's all about natural movements,as he and Chapin so often stress, and lifting your wrist so your palm isn't showing without wrist rotation is not only unnatural, it's impossible. When I rotate my wrist, the forearm rotation is negligible. I certainly don't want you to get the impression that I rotate from the forearm; the forearm naturally rotates a small amount towards the end of the upstroke.

[abe]

Actually I'm right handed.

Thanks i watched my video and found out that that few times I did the pinky-pull-out, but generaly I think it's happaening less. Ofcourse I also don't rotate that much but I think little rotation is quiet natural... but I'm not big guru of drums so I'm still researching which way is the right- no rotation at all, or basicly waving motion with some little rotation (hey, its normal that we rotate the wrist when we wave too, right? ).

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I quite agree about relying on photos, it's not a good idea. But as Finn has confirmed, Morello's video shows him unequivocably rotating his wrist. It's all about natural movements,as he and Chapin so often stress, and lifting your wrist so your palm isn't showing without wrist rotation is not only unnatural, it's impossible. When I rotate my wrist, the forearm rotation is negligible. I certainly don't want you to get the impression that I rotate from the forearm; the forearm naturally rotates a small amount towards the end of the upstroke.

Great, we are in total agreement! About the "wrist showing", "wrist straight", Dom says it is something Jim says to "just feel", and then bend the wrist a little, which I find absolutely necessary. Anyway, back to the 2-50. Cheers, DPS

[abe]

6th day

I'm doing a lot of full strokes and some half strokes.
I found ''my motion''. i think its not really possible to make Dom's described full stroke without showing palms(and Morello shows his palms while doing full strokes). I found out that my motions is mostly bending with some very little rotating almost none. I found it after watching Morello's video several times also in slow motion- I have to admit that he's definetly bending his wrist although he use some little rotation. I got thet when I made this waveing motion but with out stick - and it is basicly bending but not very drastic.

I don't know does anybody wants to see my simple ''full-stroking'' again in a video...?

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I don't know does anybody wants to see my simple ''full-stroking'' again in a video...?

Sure! Always interesting to see the learning going on! DPS

[abe]

Now I'm making barrel between the hands but still working with my left hand's pinky...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2FkfBhiHcc

[SickRick]

You should open up your fulcrum a bit. Don't wrap the index finger around the stick. Don't throw out the pinky with the left hand.

Other than that it looks good.

Sorry to be short, but I have to go to bed. BIG TIME.

[centralzeke]

You gotta be kidding, his fulcrum does not need loosening up!! Looks great, as long as you have control of the stick.

[finnhiggins]

You gotta be kidding, his fulcrum does not need loosening up!! Looks great, as long as you have control of the stick.

I disagree. Lutz is right. Actually, this is where I would suggest to one of my students that they change where they're imagining the control of the stick to lie - rather than thinking of it as being a "Front of the hand" thing try to imagine it being basically held in the back of the hand, with the fulcrum remaining a relaxed presence. If you want to try the "exaggerate to an extreme to get the feeling" then try practicing the free stroke just holding the stick with the back three fingers - no index/thumb on the stick at all, make a shape like you're making an imaginary gun to shoot people with. You should still be able to play the stroke with rebound.

Obviously this isn't how you're actually going to play though, you just place the fulcrum back on and relax the fingers at the back a little. All fingers should be on the stick, in a relaxed manner - Jim Chapin explains the grip on his video as being like holding a bird in your hand. Enough grip that it doesn't escape, but no squeezing because you don't want to kill it.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I disagree. Lutz is right. Actually, this is where I would suggest to one of my students that they change where they're imagining the control of the stick to lie - rather than thinking of it as being a "Front of the hand" thing try to imagine it being basically held in the back of the hand, with the fulcrum remaining a relaxed presence. If you want to try the "exaggerate to an extreme to get the feeling" then try practicing the free stroke just holding the stick with the back three fingers - no index/thumb on the stick at all, make a shape like you're making an imaginary gun to shoot people with. You should still be able to play the stroke with rebound.

Obviously this isn't how you're actually going to play though, you just place the fulcrum back on and relax the fingers at the back a little. All fingers should be on the stick, in a relaxed manner - Jim Chapin explains the grip on his video as being like holding a bird in your hand. Enough grip that it doesn't escape, but no squeezing because you don't want to kill it.


Lutz IS right. That index finger should not wrap around the stick for drumset playing. Drum corps guys do wrap it, however, they tend to be much less flowing than good kit players.

Finn is also right when he says you should be able to make the stroke just holding the stick with the back three fingers. Actually, since it is a wrist stroke, you should be able to make the stroke with just the pinky holding it or with ALL fingers wrapped around it.

The essence of the free stroke is that the stick is free to rebound after the initial wrist stroke. Your technique should forward that concept. Basically, all you need to do is get out of the way and let the physics work.

Remember that you are bouncing a ball and use "soft hands" to avoid stick shock.

Here's a cool tip to see how smooth your free strokes are:

Color the tips of your sticks with a highlight pen.

Get a black light. In a darkened room, turn on the black light and play your free strokes. The black light will cause the tips to glow and the arc of the stick will be illuminated.

Video tape it and you'll see where you're at. You want to see ONE smooth arc per hand, no matter how many strokes you play, This means that the stick is always traveling down the same path.

It's pretty humbling to find out just how bad your left is.

[SickRick]

Anytime I think that I've heard everything about technique a guy like Jeff comes along and tells/shows me something I didn't know.

Great man. Good advice and very understandable. Just great.

One more thing about fulcrum:

To me, there are really many possibilities that work:

1.: Index finger fulcrum
2.: Middle finger fulcrum
3.: Index+Middle finger fulcrum
4.: Pinky+Ring finger fulcrum
5.: Pinky fulcrum

Basically I can play anything I want to play equally good with all these options, but what feels best overall is the Middle finger fulcrum or - for very loud and energetic playing the Pinky+Ring finger fulcrum. For a beginner I always give the advice to start with either Index finger or Index+Middle finger because those are the easiest to learn. But what is really important is that you NEVER ever wrap your fulcrum fingers around the stick because that just leads to tension and kills the stick sound. Easy as that. You always should try to form a resonant corpus around the stick with your hand and you can only do that if you hold the stick with the last joint of your fulcrum finger.
Guys - technique is all about SOUND. And sound is all about REBOUND. And rebound is all about SPEED. So there is one technique that will give you a big sound, great rebound and therefore great speed.

It is really that simple.

[TitanSound]

A big thank you to the creator of this thread and too everybody who has posted in this thread. I now have lots of juicy info and tips to help tackle the free stroke!

[n2xlr8n]

I'm loving the black light tip....good stuff, Jeff.

Now....to find a black light. Spencer's, probably. LOL.

S.

[abe]

If someone could help....

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21616

[abe]

Hi guy,
I've been doing A LOT of free stokes... Now I try to start every day with ''2 to 50'' exercise and working hard to match my left hand with right. Not sure is it wise to bother you now with my new video?

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Hi guy,
I've been doing A LOT of free stokes... Now I try to start every day with ''2 to 50'' exercise and working hard to match my left hand with right. Not sure is it wise to bother you now with my new video?

Sure, I would love to watch it and comment on it. Bring it on! DPS

[abe]

OK Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxgKyGVRoCg

[abe]

What do you think? I guess my pinky pull out is almost over now!

[abe]

OK I guess my last video wasn't interesting anymore...

Anyway, I would like to ask your advice how to play flam in pure free stroke technique no whipe (since I'm trying to get down the free strokes first and later whipe etc.).
I can imagine 3 ways how to make flam don't laugh if some are bit silly:

1.Simply starting with one hand higher that other then I could get some nice accent too. I have heard that this way is popular among begginers since it's quiet easy.

2.Start both hands in same level just making micro delay for one hand- it shoul produce flam without accent, right?

3. This one is maybe stupid ... so when I made my first videos someone gave advice to watch for same velocity for both hands. So theoretically if I throw the sticks with different velocities than I should get flam too, right?

I'm pretty sure that it's possible to make combinations of those 3 ways... Right know I have quiet inconsistent but I think that I'm using instinctively 2nd and bit 3rd. I have tred also first one. Which is classical way how to make flam?

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Nice progress, Abe! A few things: try to keep your forearms parallel to the floor, they are a bit high. Also, your fingers look a little slanted around the stick. Watch Dom's video and see how the fingers look in the resting position. You are pretty much there, and from here it is just a matter of doing the 2 to 50 a few hundred times (really). All the smaller things will correct themselves. Keep making videos every now and then. It will be great for you to look back at in a few years. And do post them whenever you want feedback!

Are you thinking about starting the Moeller now? About the right time, I would say.

And worry about flams later, is my advice. There are many flam exercises in the book, so your flam thirst will be quenched for sure! Thanks for sharing. DPS

[abe]

Thanks men.
It's very nice to hear your advices.
Actually I'm not so interested into flams BUT very soon I'll need to play drum solos(I'm using American 150 Solos) and even the most simple solos are full of flams.

Oh are you really sure that I can start to practice whipe motion already?

[centralzeke]

You can practice flams, you should practice flams. Start with one hand lower and that's a flam.

[abe]

Are you thinking about starting the Moeller now? About the right time, I would say.

I'll start to practice moeller whipe motion. I have Dom's book, Morello's and Chapin's videos.
Do I need to do ''2 to 50'' with moeller too? Any advices befor I start.

Ofcourse I won't stop my free stroke exercises too :)

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I'll start to practice moeller whipe motion. I have Dom's book, Morello's and Chapin's videos.
Do I need to do ''2 to 50'' with moeller too?

Abe, I think don't the 2-50 with the whip is necessary. Just concentrate on starting slow and checking your movements in the mirror. DPS

[abe]

Hello,
Just wanted to say that I'm still working on my free strokes :)

I have a question too. Some years ago I got small Ganglion cyst( sometimes it's called Bible bump) on my wrists upper side. It's not big or dangerous but it's quiet difficulte to make my wrist in that 90 degree angle as in Dom's book. I know that you're not(well some maybe are) doctors, but i would like to hear drummer's experience with this cyst. Maybe I should use free stroke in American possition not german, or use some more palm rotation( it shouldn't be wrong because in traditional grip we rotate it anyway, right? )
Oh by the way, I got it befor I started to play drums so I'm pretty sure that it's not from over playing.

[abe]

Hi guys here is my latest free stroke video. Any tips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOUW16jeV-o

[jayp]

Witch book of Dom's is everyone talking about, I would like to get this book for study. Is it. "IT'S YOUR MOVE by Dom Famularo with Joe Bergamini"

If someone could send me a PM I would appreciate it.

[abe]

Yeah it's "It's Your Move''.

[jayp]

Thanks Abe, Keep up the strokes, when I get home I'm going to start tracking my freestroke like you have been. Ive been working on it for about a year and a half or so(half ass) I should be practicing every day but I only do about 3-4 days a week for about 15-30 minutes a session, my strokes have deffinatly improved it just takes time! KEEP IT UP

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Hi guys here is my latest free stroke video. Any tips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOUW16jeV-o

Hi, Abe, you should still play more round the barrel. And your forearms more parallel with the floor. I assume you were going for half strokes here? I would work on the full stroke some more. Keep focusing on keeping you thumb on the stick at all times. I cant really see how that's going but it is a major point in getting this right.

You are looking great, though. Just a bit more round the barrel with that extra stretch.
Cheers, DPS

[jayp]

DrPowerStroke, man we need more peeps like you! I hope you can stick arround to critique my video progress (I'll have to do it when I get home, im at work.) :P

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

DrPowerStroke, man we need more peeps like you! I hope you can stick arround to critique my video progress (I'll have to do it when I get home, im at work.) :P

Thank you for the kind words. I am simply trying to give back some of the incredible insights I gleaned from Dom, the master teacher.... Cheers, DPS

[Flamacue]

Forgive me for not knowing, what is this free stroke program you're doing? Because from the first video to yesterday's, I don't see the difference...well, except you got rid of the pinky. Does this technique work on grip and finger control? And when does it get faster?

[Wavelength]

What is this free stroke program you're doing?

Free stroke is a stroke where you throw the stick towards the surface, immediately relax your hand and let the stick rebound back up on its own. Mastering this technique is the key to effortless, relaxed and powerful playing. You should strive for a sharp, lightning fast stroke, and working on this at a slow rate is the most efficient way to go.

Check Dom Famularo's cyber lessons at www.vicfirth.com for more information.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Forgive me for not knowing, what is this free stroke program you're doing? Because from the first video to yesterday's, I don't see the difference...well, except you got rid of the pinky. Does this technique work on grip and finger control? And when does it get faster?

The free stroke is not about speed. The free stroke allows you to harness the power of the rebound to a maximum. If you do it in German, you are stretching your wrists and making them soft so they will accept the rebound. Your fingers mainly learn to get out of the way. Speed is a possibility, and Jeff told me that Morello had him (and Danny Gottlieb) doing free strokes very fast. That is useful, to be sure, but 90% of what the Free stroke teaches, you can learn from doing it slow. There are plenty of exercises for speed. How many actually embrace slowness and precision? Not many, and this is why I like the Free stroke: it is not threatening in any way, you play slow, and really learn details you never knew existed.

You ask what is different from the first vid. Well, I see right off the bat that the wrists are more supple and react faster. They look strong. That is a sign of many hours spent learning this technique. Hope this helps. DPS

[Flamacue]

Cool...I'll look into it. Thanks guys!

[abe]

Hi,
I want to ask you all, what do you think of finger control. I practice free strokes with German position but now I want to add some finger exercises I found sometime ago. Is it possible to use isolated finger control in German position or I could also use French position?

And if I use French, how do I switch from German wrist playing to French finger control smoothly?

[Wavelength]

Is it possible to use isolated finger control in German position or I could also use French position?

It is possible, but not too effective or convenient. If you need to use (or practice) finger control exclusively, go with the French position. Working the fingers in the French position will help your finger control in the German position as well.

If I use French, how do I switch from German wrist playing to French finger control smoothly?

Well, just turn your hand... :)

[abe]

Thanks for replay

What I mean is this: when I turn my hands should I do it gradually, since I go from wrist to finger control gradually not just one hit with only wrist and next one already pure finger control?

[Wavelength]

What I mean is this: when I turn my hands should I do it gradually, since I go from wrist to finger control gradually not just one hit with only wrist and next one already pure finger control?

Do what feels natural. If I need some finger strokes between my wrist strokes (triple strokes, for example), I tend to stay in the German position and exploit the initial momentum given by the wrist strokes. If I need to use finger control for extended periods of time (playing the ride cymbal), I go French.

One thing to remember is that the grip isn't a static state; it's not something that you can change instantly to something else at the flick of a switch. There are endless amounts of hand positions between the French and the German, and there's nothing wrong about spending a short moment there. I don't worry about the duration I spend "between places", since I can employ a fair amount of finger and wrist control in any hand position anyways.

[Alex Luce]

Hi,
I want to ask you all, what do you think of finger control. I practice free strokes with German position but now I want to add some finger exercises I found sometime ago. Is it possible to use isolated finger control in German position or I could also use French position?

Hi Abe:

In looking at your video, in my opinion you need to keep working on your stroke and not worry about your fingers right now.

It seems you are holding your elbows unaturally close to your body. However, near the end of the video, your right elbow starts to swing out from your body as you make each stroke. This is correct technique!! The motion of the stroke begins in the shoulder; the energy is transferred through the arm, and the wrist is pivoted towards the drum. If you keep working on this motion, eventually your arms, wrists and hands will begin to move and feel as one unit.

As Jeff A. said in an earlier post, you should be able to make the stroke with all your fingers wrapped around the stick. Know that there are two types of motion in play here, the motion of the stroke (arm, wrist hand) and motion in the grip (between the hand and fingers). Get the motion of the stroke down first, and worry about the fingers later.

Regards,

Alex

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Hi,
I want to ask you all, what do you think of finger control. I practice free strokes with German position but now I want to add some finger exercises I found sometime ago. Is it possible to use isolated finger control in German position or I could also use French position?

And if I use French, how do I switch from German wrist playing to French finger control smoothly?
German position, like wave said, is not a finger position. The fingers do not produce the strokes. In French they do.

It is no problem switching from one position to the other very quickly. Most drummers would do this in just a few seconds: your left might be playing French on the snare, American on the left tom, and German on the floor tom.

The elbow: the basic free stroke, as taught to me by Dom Famularo, is produced from the wrist. The shoulder is relaxed at all times. The shoulder and elbow may move if you are playing very loudly but this is passive movement. Finally, for a lot of power from the vertical position, you can do Joe Morello's so-called power stroke, which kicks out the elbow, producing a powerful wrist motion.

But again, the basic free stroke is from the wrist.

Go ahead and play some French: wrists immobile in front of you, moving only the fingers. It cannot hurt....

DPS

[Alex Luce]

German position, like wave said, is not a finger position. The fingers do not produce the strokes. In French they do.

Hello DPS:

In my opinion, the main difference between the German and French grips is: The German grip uses a pivoting action of the wrist to make the stroke, and the French grip uses a rotational movement of the forearm. Both grips have the capability of using the fingers to manipulate the stick--but it is also possible to play the arm strokes these grips produce with a firm, yet relaxed grip on the stick.

Normally we wouldn't want to play these strokes without using the fingers, but for the purposes of getting the beginning student to feel the difference between the motion of the stroke and the motion in the grip, I think it is essential.

Here is a video example of the French grip being played without the fingers: http://www.alexdrums.com/LHFrenchGrip.mpg (This file might take a minute to download, it is a little large.)

Regards,

Alex

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Hello DPS:

In my opinion, the main difference between the German and French grips is: The German grip uses a pivoting action of the wrist to make the stroke, and the French grip uses a rotational movement of the forearm. Both grips have the capability of using the fingers to manipulate the stick--but it is also possible to play the arm strokes these grips produce with a firm, yet relaxed grip on the stick.

Normally we wouldn't want to play these strokes without using the fingers, but for the purposes of getting the beginning student to feel the difference between the motion of the stroke and the motion in the grip, I think it is essential.

Here is a video example of the French grip being played without the fingers: http://www.alexdrums.com/LHFrenchGrip.mpg (This file might take a minute to download, it is a little large.)

Regards,

Alex

Hi, Alex. It was imprecise of me to imply that French grip cannot use wrists. It sure can. It is possible to play German with fingers but it is not efficient at all compared to French, and the feel is very different. If you are playing German low strokes, you are really working your wrist and sort of assisting a little with your fingers, whereas in French, playing low strokes, you can play 2000 without moving the wrist once.

I don't feel there is much use in practicing finger technique in German. However, there is an exercise in Dom's book, the "exercise for the free stroke" which is excellent. You make a free stroke with a little follow through, and allow the stick to bounce all the way back. To do this you have to get your 4 other fingers out of the way. That motion is conducive to great free strokes (and this was Buddy's 4 second lesson to Dom).

Regards,
Casper

[Alex Luce]

It was imprecise of me to imply that French grip cannot use wrists. It sure can. It is possible to play German with fingers but it is not efficient at all compared to French, and the feel is very different.

Casper:

Yes, you are absolutely right on this point. I think there is a simple physiological reason for why the French grip feels different and is more efficient. It was explained by Michael Croy in a August 2003 Percussive Notes article. Take a look at the images below:

The top image is a photo of the arm in the palms up position. Notice how the forearm bones are almost parallel. The bottom image is a photo of the arm in the palms down position, like we would use for German grip. Notice how the forearm bones are crossed. Because of this crossing, there is a certain amount of resistance we encounter when using the German grip.

When the palm is up, the forearm bones are uncrossed. This means the forearm bones are uncrossed when playing traditional grip. It also turns out the forearm bones are uncrossed when playing French grip, even though the hand is in what is called a "neutral" position, which is halfway between palms down and palms up.

Even though the matched/German grip is a very powerful stroke, when it comes to speed the French and traditional grips seem to just feel looser and more flexible. I believe it is because the bones of the forearm are closer to being parallel and uncrossed.

Regards,

Alex

[Alex Luce]

I don't feel there is much use in practicing finger technique in German. However, there is an exercise in Dom's book, the "exercise for the free stroke" which is excellent. You make a free stroke with a little follow through, and allow the stick to bounce all the way back. To do this you have to get your 4 other fingers out of the way. That motion is conducive to great free strokes (and this was Buddy's 4 second lesson to Dom).

Yes, I like this exercise and I have practiced it. I think it is more effective than the initial free stroke exercise (the Gladstone Technique) Mr. Famularo presents earlier in the book. I think the only way you can get true rebound is to let go of the stick so it can bounce.

I would be interested to know what technique Famularo recommends using when rebound is not available. I didn't see anything in his book about that.

Regards,

Alex

[abe]

Hi Alex,
I'm still begginer in Gladstone concepts. But as I understand main concept is to
1) save some energy
2) get fuller sound

when I drop the stick rebound should stop lower, I want stick to comeback to same position. So let's say I DROP the stick from 7inch high position i should loose for example 1 inch (it's just example don't want to start calculations). So instead of droping stick I throw it. If surface is rebound friendly, I can work my wrist almost only to down motion in this case. I give stick some more potential energy to come back. If surface is bit loose I can add some more throw energy or I can cacth it as high as it naturaly rebounds and then bring it back - still it's less work. Main idea, as understand it, is to use more power for down motion. I might be wrong. DRPowerStroke will tell it much better. Sorry my second language- English isn't great too :(

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Yes, I like this exercise and I have practiced it. I think it is more effective than the initial free stroke exercise (the Gladstone Technique) Mr. Famularo presents earlier in the book. I think the only way you can get true rebound is to let go of the stick so it can bounce.

I would be interested to know what technique Famularo recommends using when rebound is not available. I didn't see anything in his book about that.

Regards,

Alex

When there is no rebound you pick up the stick. Moeller if you want the stick to end low, classical up-stroke if you want it high. There is nothing to add, really. The interesting subject is how you get the most out of existing rebound, however much or little it may be. DPS

[abe]

Also quiet often poeple say NO rebound while there is some rebound. Yeah maybe for full strokes you will save some little energy but for quiet strokes this little rebound still will do the job. Ah ... want to be a master of rebound :)

[Alex Luce]

Hi Alex,
I'm still begginer in Gladstone concepts. But as I understand main concept is to
1) save some energy
2) get fuller sound


Abe: I think you explained that very well. I would add that following the rebound up with your hand is also a main concept of the Gladstone technique, but that doesn't really make sense to me. If you want to let the stick rebound you have to let go of it, ala Famularo's "exercise for the free stroke".

I like Chapin's/Moeller's concept of playing every stroke with a "effortless, continuous motion". I am not thinking down. I am thinking of the entire stroke continuously played, execution/return, execution/return, etc. This works for any surface, hard or soft, and you don't need rebound to make the stroke.

Regards,

Alex

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I am not thinking down. I am thinking of the entire stroke.
When Dom says "think down", it means "don't pull back on the stick" specifically in the free stroke. It does not apply to any and all stroke. Otherwise, upstrokes would not be possible. Minor detail, but, like my mentor Ralph Steinman said: "we deal in precision". Cheers, DPS

[Alex Luce]

Also quiet often poeple say NO rebound while there is some rebound. Yeah maybe for full strokes you will save some little energy but for quiet strokes this little rebound still will do the job. Ah ... want to be a master of rebound :)


A worthwhile pursuit for sure, but I guess the point I am trying to make is that for a beginning student the motion is more important than trying to analyze every stroke and making sure the stick is bouncing enough. Albeit I am moving away from the free stroke concept here, but looking at your video, you have some work to do in capturing the correct motion to play a proper drum stroke. If it doesn't feel right...it is not right. You've spent enough time focusing on the technique, so now try playing your strokes in a continuous, fluid motion, and don't stop between strokes.

Look at the master drummers and the effortless motion with which they play...this is what you need to emulate.

Good luck,

Alex

[Alex Luce]

When Dom says "think down", it means "don't pull back on the stick" specifically in the free stroke. It does not apply to any and all stroke. Otherwise, upstrokes would not be possible. Minor detail, but, like my mentor Ralph Steinman said: "we deal in precision"

Good point, and yes, every detail is important!

[abe]

Hi,
I started to practice moeller whip. I'm using Jojo Mayer's approach. I don't have his new video: I'm usingpreview clip of his new video. Today I practiced it for about 2 hours. I felt just like after cardio workout. BUT I didn't have any pain or tension after practice so I guess it's OK. And I start to feel the whip- that it's generated from elbow. Acctually It's similar with Dom's half moller video. Jojo explains it great.
What do you think about his approach?

[Alex Luce]

Hi,
I started to practice moeller whip. I'm using Jojo Mayer's approach. I don't have his new video: I'm usingpreview clip of his new video. Today I practiced it for about 2 hours.What do you think about his approach?

Hi Abe: I would be careful about practicing any new technique for two hours or more at a time. It is possible you could suffer an injury, because you may be using your arm and muscles in ways that you have never used them before. Short practice sessions with breaks are preferable to long practice sessions that get your heart racing.

Anyway, regarding your question, I have ordered JoJo's video and I am waiting for it to come. But obviously, JoJo has it going on, and if you can successfully duplicate the motions he makes, you should be well on your way.

One thing I thought was strange about that Moeller preview clip was that it didn't look like he was letting the stick rebound or using a return stroke when executing the motion. I know that must be different for you, because you have been working so much on rebound.

Anyway, best of luck.

Regards,

Alex

[abe]

maybe it's stupid to start to practice exercise from video I still don't have. But this short preview looks logical and I want to practice it. Today I did same exercise for about 1.5 hour because I had a band rehearsal and hadn't more time. Anyway I'll try to get this video to my country too :)

[abe]

Hi everyone,

Sometime ago I finally started to work on my double stroke roll. I discovered some mistakes, so I started from beginning. Here is a little video with my double stroke roll at 60bpm. Right now I'm working on consistency and accuracy as well as hand ambidexterity, not speed.

I'm using index finger fulcrum in german grip. I'm using fingers for each second stroke to make it more even.


I would like to hear your thoughts!


http://youtube.com/watch?v=tn9p7ttAaFE

BTW. I know that there is a lot of things to do with my doubles, so I hope it doesn't bother anyone to watch this basic stuff.

[Alex Luce]

Abe:

The positions of your arms keep changing in this video, which tells me you are not completely comfortable with what you're doing. I think you still need to work on mastering the single stroke before you can master your doubles.

However, here is something you can try that might make you more comfortable. Before you start playing, move your wrists all the way back, then rotate your forearms outward until the sticks are pointing straight up. Try starting the doubles from this position. This will give you greater range motion in your stroke, and may be a more comfortable playing position.

Regards,

Alex

[abe]

Abe:

The positions of your arms keep changing in this video, which tells me you are not completely comfortable with what you're doing. I think you still need to work on mastering the single stroke before you can master your doubles.

However, here is something you can try that might make you more comfortable. Before you start playing, move your wrists all the way back, then rotate your forearms outward until the sticks are pointing straight up. Try starting the doubles from this position. This will give you greater range motion in your stroke, and may be a more comfortable playing position.

Regards,

Alex


Thanks for quick reply.
Well this arm position chaning happens mostly with doubles and I guess it's because of more advenced motion.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Hi everyone,

Sometime ago I finally started to work on my double stroke roll. I discovered some mistakes, so I started from beginning. Here is a little video with my double stroke roll at 60bpm. Right now I'm working on consistency and accuracy as well as hand ambidexterity, not speed.

I'm using index finger fulcrum in German grip. I'm using fingers for each second stroke to make it more even.


I would like to hear your thoughts!


http://youtube.com/watch?v=tn9p7ttAaFE

BTW. I know that there is a lot of things to do with my doubles, so I hope it doesn't bother anyone to watch this basic stuff.

Looks good, Abe. I would just watch these two things: your right shoulder is not relaxed, your wrist position is more American than German (so if you really want to practice German, stretch a little more), and finally, watch that you don't bend the wrists too much (what I call "typewriter wrist").

I acknowledge your persistence as well as your willingness to share your progress.

Casper

[paramac]

Tony Williams talked about that in clinics sometimes. He would talk about BRINGING the stick back up as well as bringing down and not relying on the rebound. I think it is on U tube somewhere. Interesting that he had the speed he did when not relying on bounce. I think he also got a different sound out of the drum/cymbals. Kind of like a touch on a piano. Most techniques I have seen and I have studied quite a few, contradict that. They involve throwing the stick down and ain't nothing wrong with that. It's a very effective technique.. That way of playing(bringing the sticks up ass well as down) was done by some of the old Be Boppers like Blakey, Roach etc. I got into this when I got a little older and was studying with Ralph Peterson. I was throwing down prior to that similiar to a Morello type of technique and I just didn't at 1st understand what Ralph was trying to get me to do. After about a yr, I understood why he was trying to do that..Different sound quality/ a looser sound too...More finesse etc..






Yes, I like this exercise and I have practiced it. I think it is more effective than the initial free stroke exercise (the Gladstone Technique) Mr. Famularo presents earlier in the book. I think the only way you can get true rebound is to let go of the stick so it can bounce.

I would be interested to know what technique Famularo recommends using when rebound is not available. I didn't see anything in his book about that.

Regards,

Alex

[abe]

Second day,

Here is new video. Again my double stroke, again at 60 bpm, but this time from different angels so that you can analyze me more.

I tried to fix things that Alex and Dr.Powrstroke suggested; few of them I can change pretty easy, others will need some extra attention but I'm ready to target them.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyb2zzniYS0

Thanks for replies in advance!

[fourstringdrums]

Second day,

Here is new video. Again my double stroke, again at 60 bpm, but this time from different angels so that you can analyze me more.

I tried to fix things that Alex and Dr.Powrstroke suggested; few of them I can change pretty easy, others will need some extra attention but I'm ready to target them.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyb2zzniYS0

Thanks for replies in advance!

Just curious, how do you like the Beatnik? I was thinking about getting one possibly.

[Chonson]

Abe --

I'm working on the Gladstone/free stroke method myself, and thought it might be beneficial to share with you a portion of the practice routine that seems to be paying dividends already in my control and accuracy with this technique.

Apologies if you've heard it or know it already.

In the Joe Morello/Danny Gottlieb video, they discuss using a four-bar vamp between exercises in Stick Control and working through the first three pages of exercises. The basic idea of the vamp is that when you finish a phrase, you play four bars of just the last stick you used. So, looking over at page 2, starting with exercise 26, you would play something like this:

RRLL RRLR | LLRR LLRL | RRLL RRLR | LLRR LLRL
LLLL LLLL | LLLL LLLL | LLLL LLLL | LLLL LLLL
RRLL LLRR | RRLL LLRR | RRLL LLRR | RRLL LLRR
RRRR RRRR | RRRR RRRR | RRRR RRRR | RRRR RRRR

That's exercise 26, four bar vamp with left, exercise 27, four bar vamp with right. Try to play continuously through the first three pages at about 80-85 BPM (Morello also recommends reading it as eighths instead of cut-time sixteenths). It's a good challenge for your endurance as you develop the muscles and control in free stroke. But at 80-85 BPM, you'll also by necessity be repeating groups of 2, 3, and 4 and those doubles will come much easier and with a little more control.

I was really fighting with the mid-level stroke initially; it seemed arbitrary. But when you start doing those groups, not only will it come much quicker, you'll have far more control over them. Then when you go back to 40-60 BPM to practice the stroke in isolation, you have the basic movement more or less as part of your muscle memory and can work on fine tuning it.

Just a suggestion that's been helping me tremendously. Best of luck to you.

[abe]

Just curious, how do you like the Beatnik? I was thinking about getting one possibly.

It is fantastic. My best drum companion and teacher :)

Hour with Beatnik is twice as effective as usual metronome and pad. I use it also on the kit. For example, I put it on the snare and analyze my back beats or on cymbal stand and analyze my riding.

I highly recomend it.

[abe]

Abe --

I'm working on the Gladstone/free stroke method myself, and thought it might be beneficial to share with you a portion of the practice routine that seems to be paying dividends already in my control and accuracy with this technique.

Apologies if you've heard it or know it already.

In the Joe Morello/Danny Gottlieb video, they discuss using a four-bar vamp between exercises in Stick Control and working through the first three pages of exercises. The basic idea of the vamp is that when you finish a phrase, you play four bars of just the last stick you used. So, looking over at page 2, starting with exercise 26, you would play something like this:

RRLL RRLR | LLRR LLRL | RRLL RRLR | LLRR LLRL
LLLL LLLL | LLLL LLLL | LLLL LLLL | LLLL LLLL
RRLL LLRR | RRLL LLRR | RRLL LLRR | RRLL LLRR
RRRR RRRR | RRRR RRRR | RRRR RRRR | RRRR RRRR

That's exercise 26, four bar vamp with left, exercise 27, four bar vamp with right. Try to play continuously through the first three pages at about 80-85 BPM (Morello also recommends reading it as eighths instead of cut-time sixteenths). It's a good challenge for your endurance as you develop the muscles and control in free stroke. But at 80-85 BPM, you'll also by necessity be repeating groups of 2, 3, and 4 and those doubles will come much easier and with a little more control.

I was really fighting with the mid-level stroke initially; it seemed arbitrary. But when you start doing those groups, not only will it come much quicker, you'll have far more control over them. Then when you go back to 40-60 BPM to practice the stroke in isolation, you have the basic movement more or less as part of your muscle memory and can work on fine tuning it.

Just a suggestion that's been helping me tremendously. Best of luck to you.

Thank you very much. I'll try it right away.

[paramac]

I appolagize if what I am saying has already been said. I looked at your vid and I think your strokes look good but I wonder how long you practice what I saw on the vid for? I teach and have been for 16 yrs or so. What I do is get the student to deal with their wrist first that being free strokes/full strokes with singles/doubles/ paradidles etc then when their form/posture has been mastered at a very slow tempo, we start to increase the tempos and keep track of them. We will then do half strokes wrist only ( 6 to 7 inches off drum) I really like to emphasize the doubles and get that happening more so than the singles. I am more of a doubles guy now although I was more into singles when I was younger., Anyway, when the doubles are at around 100 to 140= a 1/4 note playing them as 16ths with wrist only but definatley rebounding (btw, the fingers come off the stick upon impact or it wouldn't bounce this is learned from the free/full stroke) I start the student with the drop catch accent exercise which I don't see you doing. I see you catching it but not accenting the 2nd stroke. This is where you snap the stick up with the fingers on the 2nd stroke with a good amount of power but relaxed. This will increase your speed a lot and give you a great double stroke roll. Also thinking of the doubles as 1/8 notes and make the 2nd stroke the down beat ya know 1,2,3,4 etc so start on 1 with L RR LL RR L the last L being the and of 4 and ya come back around etc. Hope this helps Good luck..

Just curious, how do you like the Beatnik? I was thinking about getting one possibly.

[abe]

I appolagize if what I am saying has already been said. I looked at your vid and I think your strokes look good but I wonder how long you practice what I saw on the vid for? I teach and have been for 16 yrs or so. What I do is get the student to deal with their wrist first that being free strokes/full strokes with singles/doubles/ paradidles etc then when their form/posture has been mastered at a very slow tempo, we start to increase the tempos and keep track of them. We will then do half strokes wrist only ( 6 to 7 inches off drum) I really like to emphasize the doubles and get that happening more so than the singles. I am more of a doubles guy now although I was more into singles when I was younger., Anyway, when the doubles are at around 100 to 140= a 1/4 note playing them as 16ths with wrist only but definatley rebounding (btw, the fingers come off the stick upon impact or it wouldn't bounce this is learned from the free/full stroke) I start the student with the drop catch accent exercise which I don't see you doing. I see you catching it but not accenting the 2nd stroke. This is where you snap the stick up with the fingers on the 2nd stroke with a good amount of power but relaxed. This will increase your speed a lot and give you a great double stroke roll. Also thinking of the doubles as 1/8 notes and make the 2nd stroke the down beat ya know 1,2,3,4 etc so start on 1 with L RR LL RR L the last L being the and of 4 and ya come back around etc. Hope this helps Good luck..

Thanks for your tips.
Well,you're right I really don't ACCENT second stroke. I now that many great drummers use accent on second stroke but in my humble opinion they do it to make even stroke in faster tempos other words they exaggerate to get evenness.
Jojo Mayer in his video separates double stroke roll with only rebound as more legato roll and double stroke roll with finger snap as more staccato roll. There is also quiet many great drummers and educators who suggest to us accented second stroke only for 20%-25% of total practice time not to get too used to accenting. I want to maintain all three options:

RRLLRRLLRRLL- little finger snap is used only to even out the strokes

RrLrRrLlRrLlRrLl - pure rebound

rRlLrRlLrRlLrRlL - accented second stroke

Anyway thanks for reply and I'll definetly pay attention to practice also second stroke roll with accented second stroke.

[paramac]

Your quite welcome. I think the fullstrokes and half strokes are a way of getting to a good speed for the unaccented doubles but I don't know how one gets faster without that accent exercise. Maybe that's just because I learned it that way.I think once you have mastered the roll, with drop catch accents, the choices of stacatto and legato are easy to execute. I can play either way. I think the tendancy in doing the accent is to be tight or not completely loose, it is possible to do it even with a powerful 2nd stroke and remain loose but is is hard to learn and teach..I remember also practice the 5,7,9,10,11,13 and 15 stroke rolls in addition to the accent ex. with out accenting the 2nd stroke and marking tempos and doing each one like 2 min a day only every day then spending 20 to 25 min on the accent exercise at a diffenrent tempo every 4 mins moving it up and the result was a real good roll. I just think the accent ex gets the results quicker, I could be wrong..Btw, I do have that Jo Jo video and I love it. If you follow his tips I am sure you'll be fine...He is unbelievable. Good luck and I hope to see a posting of a video of when you get the roll "rolling" so to speak. That will be a great day for you, I know it was for me...

Thanks for your tips.
Well,you're right I really don't ACCENT second stroke. I now that many great drummers use accent on second stroke but in my humble opinion they do it to make even stroke in faster tempos other words they exaggerate to get evenness.
Jojo Mayer in his video separates double stroke roll with only rebound as more legato roll and double stroke roll with finger snap as more staccato roll. There is also quiet many great drummers and educators who suggest to us accented second stroke only for 20%-25% of total practice time not to get too used to accenting. I want to maintain all three options:

RRLLRRLLRRLL- little finger snap is used only to even out the strokes

RrLrRrLlRrLlRrLl - pure rebound

rRlLrRlLrRlLrRlL - accented second stroke

Anyway thanks for reply and I'll definetly pay attention to practice also second stroke roll with accented second stroke.

[Hercraft]

Hi ABE, looking for free stroke threads I found yours, I was wondering if after 2 years of the first video of your free strokes would you take one more and if you wanna talk about the evolution of it.

Thanks!