So is ANYONE capable of drumming?

[deltadrummer1]

Ok this will come across as being silly. But... suppose someone just decided that they wanted to learn to play the drums...and wanted to learn to be a pro....say..like the ace drummer, Dave Weckl !! If that person practiced enough all of the time, could they reach this goal? Obviously, some people are more musically inclined than other people..but do you think it's possible for the 'non-musical' folks to match the skill of a really talented, famous drummer? Maybe it depends if the person wants it bad enough? It's hard for me to believe that anyone...just anyone can learn to play like Weckl or Bobby Jarzombek...or anyone of that calibur...

This is sorta ridiculous...but i was just thinking....

[djp132]

Nature vs. Nurture

Who we are is determined in part by our heredity (nature) and a part of our environment (nurture).

No two combinations can be equal, but many share a remarkable amount of similarities. Work ethic for example, a good ear, accurate time, problem solving and critical thinking skills.

I can never hard practice enough to be Weckl or Jarzombek. All I can do is practice hard enough to be ME.

[TopCat]

May I remind you Meg White is 'pro'.

[finnhiggins]

My assertion is that if anybody practiced like Weckl they could probably get somewhere near being as good as him.

But that's a bit like saying that if anybody was as good as Weckl they could be as good as him - because a lot of what makes these technique-demon guys so capable technically is their ability to focus on technical details for hours and hours, every day, for years. I can't do that. Not to that extent, anyway - I can do maybe three to four hours on technical matters and exercises in a day. Any more and I start to go utterly insane.

The difference between you and me and guys like Bobby, Dave and so forth is probably not that they have some amazing genetic-freak abilities that make them innately able to play like that. If genetics comes into play anywhere I'd suspect it'd have more to do with their ability to focus and specialise to that degree, plus being good learners and having a good eye for detail and nuance.

It's sort of like the whole getting rich thing. The steps required to actually achieve being pretty damn well off financially are not that complex, but only certain kinds of people have the dedication to the idea that they will work through all the obstacles and achieve their goal.

[NUTHA JASON]

hahaha two very good answers cat and derek.

i heard a pro drummer (i can't remember who now) once say that he had to practice for ridiculous amounts of time to get the relatively simple concepts that his peers seemed to absorb with ease. determination is the real nature needed by a drummer...more than talent.

also...easy come, easy go. if you dedicate vast amounts of time in drumming its less likely that you will take it for granted and more likely that you will continue to work on it. like weight loss. people with home gym equipment face a challenge because they have laid out their cash in the beginning and can get off the aparatus any time they like and sink into the couch. but those who pay a monthly gym fee are wracked by the guilt of paying for nothing if they don't go for any length of time...and then when they are at the gym they make the trip worthwhile by drilling themselves through it. so with drumming, putting in the effort increases your determination as your account of time spent increases.

however, there are people who are rhythmically deaf. people who cannot spot the subtle differences in the space between notes. there are also people with real co-ordination disorders. rare and extreem these cases, but there are shades of grey between them and for instance mr.weckl.

j

[millerdakiller]

This is a tough call to make. Who am I to say that anyone person will never reach a specific goal? However, I do feel that there are some people who just get music, and some people who don't. I will never understand bio-chemistry. That's the way it is. But my friend Kelly who is studying bio-chemistry will never understand overtones and thier properties. Some people get it, and some people don't.

[photon]

In a word...NO!

Just as not everyone who picks up a tennis racket will ever be Roger Federer or decides to play hockey will ever be Wayne Gretzky, etc., etc.. Weckl is among the best in the world at what he does.

I would say that with years of dedicated practice we can all become fairly competent players and that is the most the majority of us can ever hope for.

[jamsjr44]

In a word...NO!

Just as not everyone who picks up a tennis racket will ever be Roger Federer or decides to play hockey will ever be Wayne Gretzky, etc., etc.. Weckl is among the best in the world at what he does.

I would say that with years of dedicated practice we can all become fairly competent players and that is the most the majority of us can ever hope for.


I have to agree, as politically correct as it is to say "you can do anything you set your mind too" unfortunately that is not the case. I equate drumming to golf, which is my other passion and I know guys who have been playing for 20 years and are still 30 handicaps. Just like drumming I know guys who started playing in highschool 19 years ago and still are just slightly better than they were then and they practice. I must say they weren't very good to begin with, but they just love to play. They just do not have a sense of grooving, time keeping or playing for the music first, these concepts are lost on them. I guess the question should be is anyone capable of being a good drummer? More than just drumming, alot of people drum but how many are really good at it?

I saw Mr. Weckl last October and missed him last Thursday in CT, but I am still amazed at watching him play live and how effortless he makes it look.

[deltadrummer1]

Hmm...thanks for the responses guys. I was confused first about some things and for some reason that silly question popped into my mind.. "are people limited?" and "is everyone capable"

Very interesting responses though..

[Fardunda]

FWIW, I believe there are people that will NEVER be able to be as good. Like Nutha Jason said, some people are born rythmically deaf. I believe you can't learn or teach rhythm.....it is just something that ticks inside of you. It's not something that can be rope learned or written down....it's intangible.

Just like the guy who cant dance at a wedding. He can hear the music, but can't FEEL it.

[NUTHA JASON]

yeah. it is an interesting question.

i guess its like sprinting. you can train, under a great coach, take the correct diet and even do steroids...for years. BUT if you are 4foot tall you cannot hope to beat a 6foot athlete. at least that's a physical analogy.

mentally ...hmmm. you could spend 20 years at a leading school with the best teachers and extra classes. you can have a perfect home and school life that will aid your studies and want for nothing in so far as the tools and requirements of a great education is concerned. BUT if you have an IQ of 90 you will not be able to lead the feild in quantum physics one day.

drumming is mental and physical. weckl is the equivalent of lindford christy and steven hawkins. er...lindford's running and steven's mind not the other way around (which ironically would represent the worst of drummers)

j

[FunkTional Art]

FWIW, I believe there are people that will NEVER be able to be as good. Like Nutha Jason said, some people are born rythmically deaf. I believe you can't learn or teach rhythm.....it is just something that ticks inside of you. It's not something that can be rope learned or written down....it's intangible.

Just like the guy who cant dance at a wedding. He can hear the music, but can't FEEL it.
YES all can learn how to play and perform music if they are willing to do the work.

[NUTHA JASON]

can you back this opinion FunkTional Art? maybe you just haven't yet met someone who is deaf to rhythm.

j

[Jay.B.]

Like Derrek said, it's a case of nature versus nurture.

You can practice every hour god sends on the technicalities of drummimng, but this will only make you a good drummer.

Truly great drummers are born with an abundance of natural talent, and out of those that are born with it, only a few seem to realise their potential and persue this path down the road of hard work and dedication.

so to sumarise:
Talent isn't everything without hard work but hard work won't get you there on it's own

I will never be a great drummer, all I can strive to be is a good drummer

[FunkTional Art]

can you back this opinion FunkTional Art? maybe you just haven't yet met someone who is deaf to rhythm.

jHi, I had written a more in depth post but lost it somehow. Now having said that I can back up this statement through my own experience with my teaching practice. many many time I've had an individual brand new tp drumming who has come to me for instruction yet thay have doubts as to wether they are a candidate for learning drums. When I've taken these students through some basic rythmic concepts and exercises they can hardly play or clap 1/4 notes in a steady time for two bars at 50 - 60 bpm. I tell them what Tom Brechtlein told a room full of us drummers at a clinic he was doing. he said "YOU CAN DO THIS TOO" Please understand what I'm saying here is that Everyone of my students who is williong to put in the work will experience various degrees of success. If they are passionate and self disiplined thay will perform at a competent level.
The bottom line is that you get out of it what you put into it. Everyone has their own learning curve. Not everyone is going tp play like Buddy Rich but then again who of us can, yet we all can experience the joy and art of drumming when we're laying down a 2 beat groove or learning how to play a simple rudimental march. It's all about having serious fun while learning. Isn't that what we all do here on the forum.
Hope this answers and clarifies my staement earlier.

I believe and know that somone can be taught how to listen and grow.

“The key thing that tells you what’s happening
is listening.” Steve Gadd



Best Wishes,

[Finaer]

I think anyone can but some of us are just born with rhythm skills. Like those kids who are shown on some of the videos.

[Auger]

This is an interesting thread.

The first question that came to mind upon reading it is: are we equating 'being a good drummer' with 'having good technique' here?

but, I'm not even going to go there, hee hee (puts devil horns away for a moment). For sake of this thread, I'll assume we're just talking about technique.

I've thought about this a lot over the years and, in terms of technique, I think there is a talent factor, but I think it's a small one. I'd go so far as to say that 80%-90% of what people call talent is really desire. People who are labeled as having a lot of talent are often people who really, really want to be very skilled drummers -not just people who want to to play for fun and love it, but really feel a burning desire to excell at it. it's along the lines of "where there's a will, there's a way," in my opion. If you want that technique bad enough, you'll probably find a way to develop it. (the fellow who was a burn victim and now a successful pro drummer comes to mind -the guy who had to tape the sticks to his hands before several reconstructive surguries. I know there was a post about him on here a while back, but I don't remember his name and couldn't find it. Incredibly inspiring, though.)

Of course there are exceptions -there are the naturally super-gifted and the rhythm deaf, but I think that's the extreme minority. I think people who are completely rhythm deaf are probably about as common as people who are as naturally adept as buddy rich -they're out there, but there are also people out there holding winning lottery tickets. Most of the time, you can assume anyone who just bought a lottery ticket isn't one of those people.

A lot of people have told me that they could never play the drums because they "have no rhythm -I can't dance -I can't even clap in time with music" which I usually respond to with "yes you do, everybody has a natural sense of rhythm" -of course the reply is "oh yeah, well not me." to which I usually ask "really? what's your phone number?" ...and, I always get a response in the perfect phone-number rhythm which, in the US at least, is 1-2-3(rest)4-5-6(rest)7-8-9-10 -why not 1-2(rest)3(rest)4-5-6-7-8(rest)9-10? There's one rhythm they already know. There're other examples too -songs like 'happy birthday' that everyone seems to know the rhythm to, or even walking at a constant speed -not something that could easily be done (or done at all, really) with no sense of rhythm. People just need to learn to get in touch with it and to manipulate that sense they already have.

...aaaanyway, I've rambled on enough here. just thought I'd toss that out on the table.

[geek_boy_in]

I usually ask "really? what's your phone number?" ...and, I always get a response in the perfect phone-number rhythm which, in the US at least, is 1-2-3(rest)4-5-6(rest)7-8-9-10 -why not 1-2(rest)3(rest)4-5-6-7-8(rest)9-10? There's one rhythm they already know. There're other examples too -songs like 'happy birthday' that everyone seems to know the rhythm to, or even walking at a constant speed -not something that could easily be done (or done at all, really) with no sense of rhythm. People just need to learn to get in touch with it and to manipulate that sense they already have.


extremely good explanation Auger........

once I had asked one classical trained Veena ( a type of Indian string music instrument) player who had played in the biggest possible places in Chicago/USA..... that why do me and general public find 4/4 rhythms more palatable then odd time signatures ( btw besides 4/4, general people in India like 6/8 signature also very much) .... he responded that he is not sure but maybe because we are exposed to such 4/4 signatures from childhood ........

so in short so called genius' like Trilok Gurtu, Tito Puente et al are what they are because they practiced hard and also they had the good fortune to get exposure to various form of music and rhythm from childhood which shaped their mind ........

probably this explains why Tibetian music is liked by people from Tibet only while westerners do not understand a bit about what is going on ..... (if you haven't heard authentic music from Tibet then hear it .. you will freak out .. ..... am NOT talking about Buddhist hymns in monastaries btw)

[Cavemeister]

I know of no-name drummers who are as good as, if not better, than Dave Weckl. Natural ability is key, but it is also dependent upon lots of experience and practice.

[Class A Drummer]

Ok this will come across as being silly. But... suppose someone just decided that they wanted to learn to play the drums...and wanted to learn to be a pro....say..like the ace drummer, Dave Weckl !! If that person practiced enough all of the time, could they reach this goal? Obviously, some people are more musically inclined than other people..but do you think it's possible for the 'non-musical' folks to match the skill of a really talented, famous drummer? Maybe it depends if the person wants it bad enough? It's hard for me to believe that anyone...just anyone can learn to play like Weckl or Bobby Jarzombek...or anyone of that calibur...

This is sorta ridiculous...but i was just thinking....
Anyone is capable of being an awsome famous drummer (unless they are a vegetable or somthing like that or just incapable of drumming because of the stress on the body). But its not about how long you practice, but how you practice. If you practice for 5 hours a day, but practice poorly, you wont get anywhere. But if practice good material that you are capable of playing (w/ a little work) for one hour, it would be better than 5 hours of bs.

[Fardunda]

A lot of people have told me that they could never play the drums because they "have no rhythm -I can't dance -I can't even clap in time with music" which I usually respond to with "yes you do, everybody has a natural sense of rhythm" -of course the reply is "oh yeah, well not me." to which I usually ask "really? what's your phone number?" ...and, I always get a response in the perfect phone-number rhythm which, in the US at least, is 1-2-3(rest)4-5-6(rest)7-8-9-10 -why not 1-2(rest)3(rest)4-5-6-7-8(rest)9-10? There's one rhythm they already know. There're other examples too -songs like 'happy birthday' that everyone seems to know the rhythm to, or even walking at a constant speed -not something that could easily be done (or done at all, really) with no sense of rhythm. People just need to learn to get in touch with it and to manipulate that sense they already have.

Interesting point indeed mate but not really sure that I agree.

I believe that there is a difference between basic coordination and rhythm. I think anyone can rope learn their phone number, it's generally only 7 numbers which is repeated ad-nauseam. Walking is a combination of coordination and maintaining a sense of equilibrium. You don’t need to walk like you are practicing an army drill. Hence, sure someone could practice to become a technically supreme drummer but I believe without that internal sense of rhythm it will be either out of time or totally bereft of any groove or feeling.

A really good friend of mine took up the drums when we were both about 12 years old. He took months worth of lessons and could play different time signatures etc.......technically he was quite good. Playing by himself most people would be quite impressed. However, if I was to come over with a guitar to have a jam it was like banging your head against a brick wall because he had no internal rhythm and hence could not feel when to come in, when to fill and generally was all over the place timing wise. That is where I feel the difference is.

I believe that is the same with singing and people who are tone deaf. I know quite a few of these people.......now you could teach them how to correctly sing by using your diaphram and stomach etc....but that isnt going to get them any closer to feeling and hearing when the note is accurate.

Very interesting discussion!

[jamsjr44]

I know of no-name drummers who are as good as, if not better, than Dave Weckl. Natural ability is key, but it is also dependent upon lots of experience and practice.

I will say this to say someone is no-name and better than Weckl is more of an opinion than fact. I love when people say someone is better than someone at something, but they are a no-name? Like guys who say they know golfers who are better than Tiger Woods but aren't on tour? Yeah right.. I'm not saying it isn't a possiblity but being realistic if someone was better than Weckl and in hiding, my next question is why doesn't he or she do something with all that talent?

But getting back to the topic I am a firm believer that not everyone is capable of doing something no matter now much you practice. I know I was born with a good sense of rythym and can pick up almost any songs progression after a listen or two. I think musicians in general who are really good have the ability to play and learn material without having to put a lot of effort into it. I think you must have some type of natural talent when it comes to music as well as the ability to adapt and get better. I look at some of the videos or sound clips of ourselves posted on this forum and in my opinion, there are some very good drummers, some good drummers, some average drummers and some who still need alot of work but we are all drummers and therefore capable of drumming. But people who don't play an instrument don't play for a reason and I'm willing to bet it is because they just know and feel they don't have what it takes and that is okay.

This topic really is a good one and has and will continue to envoke some good responses.

[Stormi]

There are a lot of people who THINK they can't do things, when in fact they are too scared of failure to try, or because they THINK they can't do something, they don't even bother. When I started playing drums, some family were over and I was showing them just the basic rock beat (which was all I could play at the time), and my sister in law said "Oh, I couldn't do that". She'd never sat down at a drum kit in her life, but she somehow knew, or thought she knew, that she couldn't do it. I said to her "I bet you could if you tried".

I was the same with reading music - when I started the drums, I had no idea about reading music - I didn't know what a bar was, or a stave etc, and I was freaking out because it just looked so complicated and I THOUGHT "There's no way I'll ever understand that". But I've perservered, and now I can read music. I'm not great at it, and can only read music that is at the same level as my drumming, but I CAN do it - and it's because I've practiced lots of reading, I sight read pretty much everything I play, even if I know it off by heart, I still read as I play.

I don't know if I have natural talent, but my drum teacher seems to think so. I've wanted to play drums for 20 years, but in that time never took up any other instrument and never really paid attention in music classes at school. So here I was, starting drums at 34 with no real musical background at all, wondering if I would be capable of having the coordination to play, or the ability to learn to read music. 4 months down the track my teacher tells me I am playing things that most people can't after 4 months (I've only had about 8 lessons, I think, as I only go once a fortnight for half an hour). I don't get to practice nearly as much as I would like as I have 3 small children to care for. BUT, I believe I am doing so well because I have the utmost determination to be as good as I can be.

So I think if you have the determination to play well, you will. A lot of people probably have the ability to do well at drums, or sport, or whatever it may be, but give up too easily when it gets hard. I admit to being like that, with things like sport etc, I think "this is too hard' and give up, but only because it's not something I'm overly interested in, so I don't have the same drive and determination for that as I do with playing the drums. If I can't get something with the drums, I keep at it until I can do it.

[RepresentingTheDeaf]

A thread that's running through this thread:

Do we gravitate toward things we have a natural affinity for, or can we develop a natural affinity as we go?

We are talking about nature vs nurture here. Countless pages in high-brow anthropological journals debate the same thing, but I like to tangle it up in the fate vs free will conundrum. Are we genetically programmed automatons who have our passions, pursuits, and predelections designed for us according to the prescribed notation in our DNA? Or are we reckless mavericks, picking up (for instance) a hatred of math from some childhood counting exercise gone horribly wrong?

For my part (as it pertains to this discussion), I started beating on things around age 10, when some new friends I made happened to be drummers in the band at school. It was cool to bang on desks because that's what they did. Years later, I came across a drum kit and taught myself to play to songs on the radio. Now, some 26 years after my indoctrination, I still enjoy sitting behind the kit and learning new things. Question is, would I have picked up the drumming bug sometime anyway (fate) or would I have gotten into something else, say, investment banking (free will)?

Interesting thread, I must say.

[Cavemeister]

The people I'm referring to are experienced studio drummers, who, by choice, decide to stay out of view.

[RudimentalDrummer]

Everyone of us does have different level of potential in our drumming, no matter how much effort is being put into it at the end of the day - meaning there comes a time - that's the furthest we can go.. Some people are just better in drumming compared to many others, and I think it's not just about passion & hardwork the drummer puts in here because - Passion & Hardwork is a pre-requisite to good drumming and a must to have.

It goes to say, some people are very fast learners, very creative drummers, very musically talented, goes into details & perfection (like Buddy Rich)...but I do believed....if there is such a person here, the age that he starts drumming does have a little bearing (though not all) on how good he is going to become in the future too.

Practicing correctly everyday makes us all a good drummer (for sure) as years pass and it's good - at least there's a hope, there's an objective where we are heading in drumming, but to be at a level where those GREATS really are takes much more than practice, practice, practice & hardwork.....It's really a gift from God I believed..

Yes my signature says "Drummers are Made, in a way not born" ..... but I just didn't want to put up a signature that says " The Greatest Drummers are Born & Not Made"....cause how many of us here can be like them.....We all need lots of motivation & inspiration here...I do !

[MSUMetal]

I vote myself as one of the people who can never learn to play drums....But I sure as hell do enjoy listening to them and learning little things about them here and there, hence my whole being on this forum.

Now I've never taken a lesson or anything, but I have a hard time clapping in beat, or understanding this 4/4 and 5/8 rhythm and what not. Im just trying to pick it up.

The reason I havent tried out getting a drum teacher is a few reasons though, so I cant honestly say that noone could ever try.

1.) Im in college now, and cant afford anything close to a drumset or lessons
2.) I've just recently gotten into music in a bigger way, so I'm still just watching to see what I really like
3.) I lack confidence in my ability to make it worth while (I would get too frustrated, or just lose my patience).

[NUTHA JASON]

the tone of the debate here is excellent (oh that all threads were this respectful and deep)

i think it is important to keep the original question in mind...to sum it...can anyone be dave-weckl-like with sufficient practice? i, and many others, have said no. while the majority of people possess the mental, physical and motivational raw material which, when applied with years of quality practice, can lead to wecklhood, there is a decent slice of the population missing one or more of these raw attributes that will prevent them becoming super drummers.

some folk here have deviated from the debate and answered the question: can anyone be a (just a) drummer. and even that term needs further expansion. a drummer as in a lit drummer playing drums in a band? i believe the answer is still no tho less stringent and for the same reasons as in the previous paragraph. if however we are referring to a drummer in terms of a person hitting a pair of bongos along to music or shaking a tambourine at sunday service or maracas at a carnival etc etc...then in all but the most severe cases i would say yes.

j

[bromasi]

Hmm...thanks for the responses guys. I was confused first about some things and for some reason that silly question popped into my mind.. "are people limited?" and "is everyone capable"

Very interesting responses though..
no such thing as a silly question, one of the hardest thing to do sometimes is just be yourself.

[Jay.B.]

the tone of the debate here is excellent (oh that all threads were this respectful and deep)

i think it is important to keep the original question in mind...to sum it...can anyone be dave-weckl-like with sufficient practice? i, and many others, have said no. while the majority of people possess the mental, physical and motivational raw material which, when applied with years of quality practice, can lead to wecklhood, there is a decent slice of the population missing one or more of these raw attributes that will prevent them becoming super drummers.

some folk here have deviated from the debate and answered the question: can anyone be a (just a) drummer. and even that term needs further expansion. a drummer as in a lit drummer playing drums in a band? i believe the answer is still no tho less stringent and for the same reasons as in the previous paragraph. if however we are referring to a drummer in terms of a person hitting a pair of bongos along to music or shaking a tambourine at sunday service or maracas at a carnival etc etc...then in all but the most severe cases i would say yes.

j

it could be put in terms of F1 racing drivers, anybody could learn the skills of race driving, but very few people have the mindset of schumacher, which is what made him world champion for years, it wasn't just skill alone. I'll leave it at that as I already had my main input a few posts ago.

[RudimentalDrummer]

it could be put in terms of F1 racing drivers, anybody could learn the skills of race driving, but very few people have the mindset of schumacher, which is what made him world champion for years, it wasn't just skill alone. I'll leave it at that as I already had my main input a few posts ago.


Hm.mmm what's that?...Definetely you're right...it wasn't skill alone (though skill of a driver is the utmost factors in winning in any Car-Race) , was it stamina, endurance, money?

So what's that my bro ? - or was it "Taking/Testing the Car Beyond It's Limit" at his highest risk?.....but it cannot be a Passion To Win, cause everyone wants to win in a race...tell me...tell me...I would like to know.

[jamsjr44]

There are a lot of people who THINK they can't do things, when in fact they are too scared of failure to try, or because they THINK they can't do something, they don't even bother. When I started playing drums, some family were over and I was showing them just the basic rock beat (which was all I could play at the time), and my sister in law said "Oh, I couldn't do that". She'd never sat down at a drum kit in her life, but she somehow knew, or thought she knew, that she couldn't do it. I said to her "I bet you could if you tried".

I was the same with reading music - when I started the drums, I had no idea about reading music - I didn't know what a bar was, or a stave etc, and I was freaking out because it just looked so complicated and I THOUGHT "There's no way I'll ever understand that". But I've perservered, and now I can read music. I'm not great at it, and can only read music that is at the same level as my drumming, but I CAN do it - and it's because I've practiced lots of reading, I sight read pretty much everything I play, even if I know it off by heart, I still read as I play.

I don't know if I have natural talent, but my drum teacher seems to think so. I've wanted to play drums for 20 years, but in that time never took up any other instrument and never really paid attention in music classes at school. So here I was, starting drums at 34 with no real musical background at all, wondering if I would be capable of having the coordination to play, or the ability to learn to read music. 4 months down the track my teacher tells me I am playing things that most people can't after 4 months (I've only had about 8 lessons, I think, as I only go once a fortnight for half an hour). I don't get to practice nearly as much as I would like as I have 3 small children to care for. BUT, I believe I am doing so well because I have the utmost determination to be as good as I can be.

So I think if you have the determination to play well, you will. A lot of people probably have the ability to do well at drums, or sport, or whatever it may be, but give up too easily when it gets hard. I admit to being like that, with things like sport etc, I think "this is too hard' and give up, but only because it's not something I'm overly interested in, so I don't have the same drive and determination for that as I do with playing the drums. If I can't get something with the drums, I keep at it until I can do it.


Well you have kind of agreed with me in a sense, by saying how much determination you have and how you used it to become a drummer. You have to have determination to do anything in life and we all have stronger determination in other areas of life. Some people were determined to become pro athletes, some politicians etc... I think for the drummers on this forum well had the determination to play drums at some level without it, then we would not have picked up a pair of sticks.

There is no wrong or right answer to this question, I guess the best way I can answer it is, overall yes anyone is capable of drumming IF they are determined enough. But how good will you become at it is a totally different topic, which I know has been covered before somewhere in this forum.

Cavemeister "The people I'm referring to are experienced studio drummers, who, by choice, decide to stay out of view."

To the people who have Dave Weckl like ability and are studio musicians, I would love to ask why be so secretive about your skill? Sometimes it's not their choice maybe they aren't as good as they think? Musical ability is something that should be shared in my opinion. Again I'm not saying there aren't drummers out there who aren't as skilled as Weckl, but I just find it hard to believe that that many of them exsist and are unknowns. You make it sound like anyone can be as good as Weckl and I will say that is a definite NO! Yes some drummers can get there but the majority of us cannot, he has god-given abilities. I mean the proof is actually right in front of your eyes just on this website. There are over 8000 members on this site but only about 100 to 300 drummers are listed with their own page and are what I call true Professional Drummers. Some of us have played longer than some of them and just as long and most of us do not possess their skills. I believe you can get there with alot of practice but you also have to other abilities not easily learned or taught. Just like in sports I can run a 4.3 40 yard dash and have never trained to get that fast, and I don't care how much you train and exercise most people will never be able to run that fast. Drums are no different there are just somethings you will never be able to do on a drum set that others can. It comes back to being an originator not a duplicator. Weckls drumming opened up alot of things people didn't think was possible, that is what sets great drummers apart from the average. Like Steve Gadds 50 ways chop, it's not that hard to play once you understand it, but who else would have thought to play it that way? Sorry to stray off topic....

[Jay.B.]

Hm.mmm what's that?...Definetely you're right...it wasn't skill alone (though skill of a driver is the utmost factors in winning in any Car-Race) , was it stamina, endurance, money?

So what's that my bro ? - or was it "Taking/Testing the Car Beyond It's Limit" at his highest risk?.....but it cannot be a Passion To Win, cause everyone wants to win in a race...tell me...tell me...I would like to know.

natural ability/talent whatever you want to call it, and that special frame of mind that lets you just lock in and nail it. The passion to do/be the best does play a huge part in it aswell, but if he wasn't born with that natural ability then we wouldn't even know who the hell he is.
He was also one of the lucky ones who discovered what their natural talent is, we all have one, some are more pronounced than others.

I have a natural talent, but it sure as hell aint drumming LOL I don't know what it is. I have a good ear for ryhthm and groove but that's as far as it goes with me, I have to work like a bugger to try to acheive the simplest of techniques. I simply just won't get some of them no matter how hard I try or work at them, I haven't got that special thing that makes these amazing people tick.

did that make sense LOL I hope so, that's something else I'm crap at... explaining myself haha

[geek_boy_in]

Hey Guys !!
this is my second reply .... But you know what ...... the mere reason that am still at my end twenties pursuing DRUMs as a hobby ( inspite of all obstacles from parents in childhood, studies, work etc etc) ...... and not some other easily rewarding instrument like a 6 string acoustic ....... shows that I/we have the natural inclination towards rhythm :) ....

now only if I could channelise my natural talent and practice hard ........

..... there goes your nature v/s nurture arguments .....


*** i called acoustic guiter easily rewarding cause even after 6 months of practice you can play atleast something with any 3 bar chords to please your friends, family and aquantance ........ but try that with drums even after 1 year of practicing ..... hehehehe ..... even your girlfriend will tell you to stfu .....

[photon]

Hey JB...

We don't all have a natural talent...some people are just born to be mediocre at everything they do.

Life is not always fair...there are the have's and the have nots.

[Jay.B.]

and I, my friend, just happen to fall in to the "have not" category :-)

[DillingerEscp]

Ok this will come across as being silly. But... suppose someone just decided that they wanted to learn to play the drums...and wanted to learn to be a pro....say..like the ace drummer, Dave Weckl !! If that person practiced enough all of the time, could they reach this goal? Obviously, some people are more musically inclined than other people..but do you think it's possible for the 'non-musical' folks to match the skill of a really talented, famous drummer? Maybe it depends if the person wants it bad enough? It's hard for me to believe that anyone...just anyone can learn to play like Weckl or Bobby Jarzombek...or anyone of that calibur...

This is sorta ridiculous...but i was just thinking....
Im sure if someone practiced an absurd amount, they could probably be as good... But I mean.... practice A LOT. Nothing else.

[Auger]

man, -so many great posts in this thread!


Anyway, I think Stormi had an excellent point with people convincing themselves they can't and making that into a self-fufilling prophecy.

Farunda, I guess I'm not denying there is a talent factor, but I do think it's small and overcome-able by most: I think desire trumps talent in most cases. I think the person who truly can not achieve tecnical facility no matter how hard they try is as rare an occurance as the true savant who attains it with no effort at all. ...but your point was well made. Dissagreement is what makes it fun here!

The other reason I say this is this: let's not diminish all work someone like weckl put into his technique. I'd go so far as to say this: I think the only reason that I don't have technique at the same level as dave weckl is because he earned it and I didn't.

As an example, my teacher is the only person I've ever met in 'real life' who I'd say has technique on par with a weckl or one of those guys. I'd say he's probably 'gifted' and, while he very rarely shows-off, I've had to pick my jaw off the floor at some stuff he's done in lessons. However, gifted as he may be, he's put in a looooot of work developing his skill.

One of the books we're working through is wilcoxon's 150 rudimental solos -I'm sure many of you know it. When he was developing his technique, my teacher used to get up every day, eat breakfast, and then play that book cover to cover, all 150 solos ...as his warmup. He used to practice for 8 hours a day.

Ahtough I realize this isn't quite exactly what's been said, I think we're coming close to implying someone like weckl got his tecnique as a gift -which minimizes it a little bit.

...but, as I hinted at in the beginning of my last post, when it comes to being a "great" drummer, tecnique is only a part of the picture, in my opinion. (as for the time my teacher spent on technique he says that, based on his personal experience, he doesn't reccomend it)

I think that, if I practiced my technique and get it to the level of, say, a shelly manne or elvin jones, which I do believe I could do, I wouldn't consider myself nearly as great a drummer as those guys. In my opinion, that's where 'gifted' comes into play. I don't think it's elvin's technique that made him great -I think there are probably many drummers who have more finely tuned technique than he did, but, as drummers, or as musicians, aren't even in the same ballpark. ...but that's a whole 'nother can of worms and a whole other very long post, so I'll just leave it at that for now.

Ironically, this becomes clearer to me the more technique I develop. Not that I'm a technique-monster by any stretch, but I know my way around a drumset. ...it's almost like I had to put in the effort of learning technique not to learn the technique itself, but to learn about the art of drumming and learn the roll that technique actually plays within it, if that makes any sense.


...well back to work. (sigh...)

[deltadrummer1]

the tone of the debate here is excellent (oh that all threads were this respectful and deep)

i think it is important to keep the original question in mind...to sum it...can anyone be dave-weckl-like with sufficient practice? i, and many others, have said no. while the majority of people possess the mental, physical and motivational raw material which, when applied with years of quality practice, can lead to wecklhood, there is a decent slice of the population missing one or more of these raw attributes that will prevent them becoming super drummers.

some folk here have deviated from the debate and answered the question: can anyone be a (just a) drummer. and even that term needs further expansion. a drummer as in a lit drummer playing drums in a band? i believe the answer is still no tho less stringent and for the same reasons as in the previous paragraph. if however we are referring to a drummer in terms of a person hitting a pair of bongos along to music or shaking a tambourine at sunday service or maracas at a carnival etc etc...then in all but the most severe cases i would say yes.

j


I agree Nutha...this debate here has invoked some very interesting responses. I've actually taken the time to read all of them and consider everyone's opinion to answer the thread question. Many thanks guys!!

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I remember when I had been taking lessons from Dom for about 6 months and seen dramatic improvement in my hands. He was complimenting me on my progress and I felt all proud. then, later, talking about the techniques, he said " yes, and it has NOTHING to do with talent! Isn't it amazing?" He has been helping students improve 400% no matter what their starting point. After I got rid of my hurt ego, I started to marvel at how truly amazing it is: musicality is one thing, and one may say it can't be learned, but then, how much do you need to be having a good time behind a kit? I say get off it: anyone can have beautiful hands and express themselves. All the rest is negative energy, and you don't need that. No, I am not high....DPS

[jamsjr44]

I remember when I had been taking lessons from Dom for about 6 months and seen dramatic improvement in my hands. He was complimenting me on my progress and I felt all proud. then, later, talking about the techniques, he said " yes, and it has NOTHING to do with talent! Isn't it amazing?" He has been helping students improve 400% no matter what their starting point. After I got rid of my hurt ego, I started to marvel at how truly amazing it is: musicality is one thing, and one may say it can't be learned, but then, how much do you need to be having a good time behind a kit? I say get off it: anyone can have beautiful hands and express themselves. All the rest is negative energy, and you don't need that. No, I am not high....DPS

I have the utmost respect for DOM, but I also do not take everything professional drummers say as gospel. Some would say you have to have some talent others would say you don't. Again it is all opinion and no ones opinion is really wrong. When I first started playing and again I have never taken a formal lesson I just watched the church drummer for my dad's choir, and I have always learned by ear and I can remember alot of songs and how they were played. My dad used to tape the choir at rehearsals and I would listen to them and and play along until I got it down. Plus I could remember some of the stuff he played and just went home and played it, so to me I have always had the talent to play drums but I was able to progress by practicing. So I think it takes a little of both.

[ZDrums24]

this may have already been touched, but i grew tired of looking for it after about 5 minutes.

early on, people were arguing over the ability of one to feel and interperet rhythem. this is not something you are just born with, it is something you learn much like language. music in general is learned like a language. people who start late must put in a lot more work much like a person who learns spanish in high school will always have to work much harder than the person who started in elementary school. this is also why a good high school music program does not exist without a strong elementary school program. this basically means that the task at hand is not impossible, but it will be difficult.

also at work here is the 'nuture' part of of 'nature vs nuture.' these amazing drummers have, for the most part, grown up in households where music was very prevalent. they listened to a ton of music and assimilated the particular feel for what it is they are doing. in my home growing up, pop/rock and prog were very prominent, but jazz almost never was heard. i have done very little to change this in my life, so as a result, my jazz feel is terrible while i can play prog fairly well. it also works in the inverse. i know jazzers who cant sound good behind a rock band no matter how hard they try, and these guys' parents listen to nothing but jazz and latin stuff.

in short, its not impossible to be at least good enough to master the heft of what guys like weckl do, but its going to be hard. almost impossible if you want to be as good as them, but anything can happen.

did i also mention i am a music ed major? so there is some science behind my statements.

[RudimentalDrummer]

Bro ZDrums

Yes not everyone can be a Weckl indeed .... it probably takes more than Hardwork alone. Drummers who are Weckl-Alike (must have put in tons of HardWork)...besides that - They are born with a certain Potential in Drumming ...(Very High Potential I guess).

I asked my Instructor who is now 60 years old....a Professional who taught countless of Drums Students - He did groom many good professional drummers in our market, but only one particular drummer of his stood out to be the BEST & is also a TOP DRUMMER in Singapore ...and this student of his plays FUSION MUSIC.....even his those other students who are now teaching drumming in Yamaha Music School is nowhere near this student.

My Instructor told me - They all started learning at around the same time, when they were schooling about 15 years old boys, and during those times already - he can tell this TOP Drummer is a very fast learner.

Having said that - I've mentioned that my Instructor have been drumming for 40 over years...and he told me a Drummer by the Name of Edmund Branson (a young 20 over years old drummer now deceased and miss by all of us) which my instructor was a Judge for Top-Drummer In Singapore ...gave the Title to Edmund Branson. (Edmund is not the top student my Instructor taught as I've mentioned above though the TOP Drummer I've mentioned also took part in the competition...who came in second and I know he was furious with my Instructor).....My Instructor told me ... Edmund (a 20 over year old boy is gifted - and could do amazing stuffs ... so tough my instructor he himself couldn't do.....) I gave my utmost respect to my Instructor who is a very Fair & Just person for gaving the title to Edmund instead to his own student....Most of all - my respect to my Instructor is that he can admit to me - - - (Edmund is less experience ...yet he is a better drummer than himself & to me it takes avery humble person to do that)...Oh and yes Edmund became the 2nd Zildjian Endorsee in Singapore.

I wrote this - to let everyone judge for themselves, if - A Weckl-Like Drummer is only through Hardwork & years or......somehow inborn with high potential in Drumming...you judge for yourself.

[zambizzi]

This is an interesting thread, I thought I'd resuscitate it. It started off w/ a seemingly silly (and innocent) question - one many of us probably ask ourselves all the time. "Can I ever be as good as these giants I see on my instructional DVDs?"

I'm going to say yes.

However, learning anything is a journey and learning anything complicated requires an incredible amount of self-discipline, determination, and patience.

Drumming, like any journey is something that progresses over time and since it does in fact take time (for 99.99999999999%+ of drummers...even amongst the best) your thoughts and feelings of "the goal" you're progressing toward can change along the way. As your playing improves and you continue to see the fruits of your labor, you'll be less intimidated by what the "masters" are capable of doing.

Someone here posted a beautiful quote - I wish I could remember who it was so I could give the proper credit where credit is due...but it was; "Celebrate progress, don't wait to reach perfection."

Celebrate the little goals...like the "wow" breakthrough moments when you can do something you've been finding challenging. Or, simply celebrate a good practice session you had today...whatever.

Everything these technical maniacs are capable of is physically possible...they're only human - just like you. They were, at one point, where you are today and most likely thought to themselves..."Will I ever be as good as Buddy Rich!? I work so hard!".

I don't think I'll be "as good" as Dave Weckl but as I progress on my journey and my skills improve...I'll be more and more satisfied w/ my abilities and won't place as much value as having equal or better skills than another drummer out there. It's all a matter of perception and satisfaction.

[Joel Woody]

I am going to say YES. 3 years ago i would never think that I would be a Section Leader of Percussion. I had NEVER played anything involving Percussion in my life.

I took up a drumstick and knew how to play just by listening to the other kids beat on their drums. I am now the best in our school. I know some people will say "Well his school must now be very good," but out of the kids that had been doing this since 5th grade and me that just started 3 years ago and i am 18 now............I learned with ease. And i had never played anything before.

I would have to say Yes. I didnt think that i would be able to do it, but i came a long way with practice. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE is all i have to say and you will go far.

[ZDrums24]

Having recently taken a human growth and development class for my music education major, i would like to inject a little insight from that topic.

one of the biggest takes on 'nature vs. nuture' says that all humans are born with potential/pre-dispositions, but this cannot come out with out the nuture. I may be willing to believe that some people are genetically gifted with some sort of advantage (good coordination skills, a learning style that allows for extremely fast learning, etc), but I still will stand by my earlier statement that anyone can be a great drummer. it is all about exposure and skill development in many respects; the primary one being audiation (the ability to hear a rhythm and reproduce it, the ability to see notes on a page and being able to hear it in your head, the ability to take an idea heard or played at one tempo and quickly adjust it to a new one). this skill is developed. you are not born with it. some people may just have a predisposition to pick it up faster, allowing them to progress faster than others. I still think that the biggest deciding factors in the speed of progress of a drummer are determination, musical exposure, and the age at which key skills like audiation and coordination were developed; nothing you are just born with or without.

[Norske]

Having recently taken a human growth and development class for my music education major, i would like to inject a little insight from that topic.

one of the biggest takes on 'nature vs. nuture' says that all humans are born with potential/pre-dispositions, but this cannot come out with out the nuture. I may be willing to believe that some people are genetically gifted with some sort of advantage (good coordination skills, a learning style that allows for extremely fast learning, etc), but I still will stand by my earlier statement that anyone can be a great drummer. it is all about exposure and skill development in many respects; the primary one being audiation (the ability to hear a rhythm and reproduce it, the ability to see notes on a page and being able to hear it in your head, the ability to take an idea heard or played at one tempo and quickly adjust it to a new one). this skill is developed. you are not born with it. some people may just have a predisposition to pick it up faster, allowing them to progress faster than others. I still think that the biggest deciding factors in the speed of progress of a drummer are determination, musical exposure, and the age at which key skills like audiation and coordination were developed; nothing you are just born with or without.

I tend to agree - but only partially. There is such a thing as innate talent, and someone who nurtures that talent will always be one step ahead of someone without talent who practices their brains out. While I have talent to some degree, I do not have the level of talent of a Buddy Rich, and no matter how many hours, days, and weeks I practice I will never be as great as he was. However, that doesn't mean that I cannot be a great drummer in my own right. We can all achieve greatness, but different levels of greatness.

[ZDrums24]

While I have talent to some degree, I do not have the level of talent of a Buddy Rich, and no matter how many hours, days, and weeks I practice I will never be as great as he was.

Like I said, some people might have some genetic predispositions towards certain talents, like coordination and quick learning.

Then you also have to consider how many hours Buddy Rich spent playing at all those shows. I doubt you have the that kind of time in the day for playing. If you did play that much, I bet you'd become pretty exceptional. And then there is the very young age at which he started.

Another thing, I never have understood why Buddy Rich has gotten so much attention from drummers. I find Rich to be more of a circus performer than a musician.

[drumbandit]

I think that some people can practise for hours a day and still not be as good as somoene who is naturally gifted. There are people in my school who are amazing at football(soccer), but don't really practise very much. No matter how much I practised I still couldn't play as well. I think it links to drums in that some people just don't have that in built sense of time and groove which others get naturally.

Tom

[irish_steve]

As well as practicing like Weckl the person would have to play all the gigs and sessions Weckl has played.

Also they would have to attend every clinic, lesson, gig, drum show that Weckl has ever attended.

And listen to every piece of music Weckl has ever listened to, even stuff on the radio in the background.

Also they would have to notice and absorb the same things from these experiences as Weckl has done.

We are all a product of our environment, and we become the drummers we are by way of our life experiences to date.

(in my opinion)

[bigbang]

Man if I can do it anyone can. I'm a firm believer of the saying " you get back what you put into it".

[King Of Drums]

I don't think so! I've encountered many people who have terrible rhythm! They can't stand learning either they find it too boring and slow and just want to destroy the kit.

[jangus]

Think about it from a different perspective. To say that there will never be another drummer as good as Weckl is just plain stupid. Of course there will be.

I think everybody has the capability of doing something incredible, some people are just born with a head start.

[ZDrums24]

I don't think so! I've encountered many people who have terrible rhythm! They can't stand learning either they find it too boring and slow and just want to destroy the kit.

I think the argument is more about the average person's potential to learn; not necessarily the actual reality of such.

[King Of Drums]

I think the argument is more about the average person's potential to learn; not necessarily the actual reality of such. I see so basically are drummers born or made sort of thing? The thing about the Weckl question though is that it's not just about practicing everything he practiced. You would have to live his exact life down to every detail! I think everyone has the potential to be great some are just more naturally talented than others though so they learn quicker.

[Odd-Arne Oseberg]

With the right mindset and enough practice I think most people can be a working pro on a high level. Would you sound exactly like Dave? Maybe not, but even if imitation down to the smallest detail is great, even essential, for your musical development, that's not really the point when you start making your own art behind the kit.

There are probably exceptions, but that usually comes down to other issues not related just to musicality but other aspects of life which can be solved if one is willing.

[Spreggy]

From the mists of antiquity, the ancient thread rises.....

I have an anecdotal story for this. I deal in violins by day, and talk to a lot of violin dealers. Over the years, a handful have claimed to have figured out Stradivari's secret. Strads (and Amatis) stand alone as violin masterpieces, and few have succeeded in duplicating their tone. So the "Strad's Secret" topic comes up now and then. But there is one violin maker living today who said it best: "Strad's secret? Spend your life making violins".

Same goes for top-tier drummers. They outworked their competition. Talent gets you started, gets you interested. Perseverance and dedication puts you in the big leagues. Wanna be as good as Dave, Vinnie, Buddy, Steve, et al? Spend your life playing drums, listening to music, taking classes, etc.

[Ethan01]

My question is, why concern yourself or waste time thinking 'will I ever get as good as X?' If you truly love drumming, then it doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day if I tell myself I tried my best and still failed, then that's ok. If I tell myself I didn't try that hard and didn't reach my goals, then I'd be kicking myself.

[Psychopete]

I agree with everyone else that you shouldn't strive to be someone else. There are drummers that I think are great, but by any means I am not striving to sound like them either. I only listen to music I want to learn for fun, other than that, I try to keep influence out of the equation.

I see so basically are drummers born or made sort of thing?

Natural born musicians are the ones that can play something and make you turn your head and wonder where they pulled that out of their behind. The creativeness to think outside of the box and have a solid feel where time is. Creativity cannot be taught, it just happens on an individual basis.

So my answer is, no. Anyone can learn, but not everyone can make heads turn.

[Bo Eder]

Ok this will come across as being silly. But... suppose someone just decided that they wanted to learn to play the drums...and wanted to learn to be a pro....say..like the ace drummer, Dave Weckl !! If that person practiced enough all of the time, could they reach this goal? Obviously, some people are more musically inclined than other people..but do you think it's possible for the 'non-musical' folks to match the skill of a really talented, famous drummer? Maybe it depends if the person wants it bad enough? It's hard for me to believe that anyone...just anyone can learn to play like Weckl or Bobby Jarzombek...or anyone of that calibur...

This is sorta ridiculous...but i was just thinking....

I haven't read everyone's responses but the quick answer should be, "why not?" I've always said that if the desire is there, there shouldn't be anything standing in anybody's way to get to a certain goal (and this is applicable to everything else, besides just drumming). Life is replete with stories of people getting on a certain road and discovering if it works out or not. If it does, continue. If not, re-evaluate.

But is the question here really to be a top-notch player, or to be famous? As we've seen from the many Meg White, and Hannah Ford threads (to stay within this drumming community, anyway), being top notch and being famous are two very different things. I know drummers who just like to play, and they're incredible, but they don't pursue it as a career and love their existence. Others pursue becoming famous and well-known but don't play very well. This kinda' begs a different question, doesn't it? Can you be a top-notch player and not be famous? Or does it just come with the territory?

[Duckenheimer]

My question is, why concern yourself or waste time thinking 'will I ever get as good as X?' If you truly love drumming, then it doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day if I tell myself I tried my best and still failed, then that's ok. If I tell myself I didn't try that hard and didn't reach my goals, then I'd be kicking myself.

Motivation to get his gigs.

I strive to sound exactly like a few drummers. When I can pull some of that off at a high level I'll put full focus in striving to find my own voice.

[sttp118]

I think this is a much more complex topic than people are assuming.

My answer is... no way, most people do not have the qualities needed to achieve a Weckl-like level.

It is about so much more than practice time. Obviously, there is an aptitude / natural gift / "born with it" element to it all. But no one has really emphasized how that aptitude interacts with desire and attitude.

To say that "anybody could be Weckl if he just practiced as much as Weckl" is naive, and misses the point; a big part of the greatness IS the ability and determination and that certain ratio of qualities needed in order to have WANTED to practice as much as Weckl did. And aptitude has a huge impact on that. We tend to like what we're good at. We also tend to be good at the things we like. Both concepts have a place here, and they create a rare feedback loop. But someone without tremendous drumming and rhythmic aptitude... sooner or later that person is going to hit a point on his own individual learning curve, a block or whatever, and it's then not going to be as enjoyable for him. His desire to practice will be affected. He'll get sidetracked and become interested is something else.

And never-mind the totally obsessive element to all of this. How many people have the combination of personality traits, the single-mindedness, and the focus, to dedicate all of their time to drumming alone? Not many. Most of us are interested in many, many things, and have multiple hobbies. There is an emerging hypothesis in the sciences that people who are great at certain types of things (like sports or music) are, in a sense, victims of a kind of illness, almost. I'm surely not explaining it well, but these people were susceptible to obsessiveness in a way that most of us could never be. This is not necessarily a bad thing. The greats are just out towards the edges of several certain bell curves. (Again, I am certainly not critiquing them; I think we all should celebrate these people, and am glad we do. They are freaks of nature, in a sense, who share their gift with all of us.)

Another way to think of it is this: the most beautiful women, science has shown, are the ones with the highest number of average features. That's right, the ones with least number of deviations from the norm. What's exceptional about a model is not her abundance of "beautiful" features; it is her overwhelming abundance of average features that is, surprisingly, so very rare. Most of us have a big nose, or funky ears, or a weird hairline, or some other combo of deviations that keep us off those Paris fashion runways (I've got about 20, haha), but a few people are lucky, take care of themselves properly, and so on.... But it is that *accumulation of averages* that is at play.

The obvious parallel is that someone like Gadd or Weckl or whomever is, in a sense, freakish in his drumming beauty. There are multiple deviations or susceptibilities that exist that would side-track most people on the quest to be the best. Attitude, perseverance, etc. These guys, however, have a certain combination of traits that allow them be the best. Add in that freakish obsessiveness (which may also partially be a sum of those other traits), and then you've got yourself a world class drummer.

No way could anyone do it if only they "only" practiced as much. To me, the point is, few have the qualities needed in order to tolerate or even *want* to practice that much.

(This does not even get into the mysteries of groove, etc... like, why can Gadd play a quarter note groove, 8 notes on the drums per measure, and it makes anyone within earshot want to dance, and yet we all know of the drum chops monsters (who've practiced as much as Weckl) and yet lack this ability. Clearly, there is an innate, "tapped into something rare" aspect at work here.)

[zarrdoss]

I think anyone with enough determination drive and focus could learn to play the drums, but not everyone can be great. Thats just the way it is its a law of nature. Most everyone learns to drive a car but there are so few great drivers these days, right? I think most everyone has some talent whether it be sports music arts, whats sad is most people never figure out what it is they're great at, or even worse assume that they will never be good at anything, you will never know until you try.

[Numberless]

Determination and hard work can take you far, just ask Mike Johnston.

[RudimentalDrummer]

This is my own Personal Opinion here; -

Initially I too thought that -- Everyone is indeed capable of Drumming ...But this is not True...as I found out.

I have a few Friends who would love to drum after watching us Drum - - The Very Basic 2/4Beat took Her a month still can’t make it ( there were 3 Girls I know who just cant do it though they tried hard )…But also There is a Girl who is so good though she had never drum before – can drum so well…All these are my Personal Friends.

But is it true – that with Proper Training, Stamina and Disclipine eg - - In Double Pedalling – One can Achive a Speed oneday sooner or later at eg 185 or 195 bmp ..Well this is not TRUE…Somethings are Inborn..some people just can drum with greater speed than others - - In this area – no amount of Training can help a Drummer…There is a LIMIT set for each of us.

[stevo]

My personal analogy.
I have been playing since I was 9, I am 49, to some degree or another.
My observation, on my status: At a young age, had I had a really good teach, and I knew how to practice... not taught by the teacher. The other, is the passion the player has. I think I have the passion, but I certainly never had the concept of "how" to practice, and put the "hours" on end into it, when I did have the time.
The cliche, if I knew then what I know now...? I would be a much better drummer. I would have been in much better bands, at a much younger age... BUT... To be at "that" level? Who knows. Again, genetics?

[legobeast]

Of Teachers and Delusional Thinking

This discussion has been a really interesting re-take on earlier ones on a similar topic. Really interesting, and stuff that cuts to the core for all those of us lesser mortals that dream of one day waking up with the drumming skills of Dave Weckl.

There is a set of responses that suggests that if you work at it hard enough, you will make it.
This reminds me of teachers struggling to cajole resistant pupils into learning new stuff. They know really well that little Doug, with an IQ of 75, is never going to be an Einstein, yet encouragement with the - you can make it, if you just work hard enough - mantra, leaves Doug a very frustrated and disaffected young man.

Us budding drummers, or real drummers even, suffer from this kind of delusional thinking - if we just practise rudiments for 2 hours a day, get a great teacher, play with diverse bands to build up experience, and study the musical 'feel' of the greats, we will one day realize our aspiration of becoming a great drummer.

But it is just that, delusional thinking, which can have the seriously debilitating side-effect of leaving us frustrated and bitter, as all of our hours, days, weeks and years of practise fail to deliver the expected results!

As others have said, we need to be liberated from the tyranny of this approach.
Enjoy the drums as we play them - the rest of the world may not appreciate our music (I am reminded of all those tone deaf contestants in Amercan Idols - X Factor etc!!!), but heh, who cares! It's awesome fun beating those skins. And if no one at all appreciates your sound, well, there is always an audience that is guaranteed to applaud your noise, no matter how chaotic - yep, ma and pa. Well, normally, but there are exceptions.....

Have fun!

[Pkaneps]

Anyone can learn to do anything anyone else can do. We're all made of the same stuff, it just depends what we practice and what we focus on.

I was a bit of a natural when it came to drums, but I've been playing guitar more than twice as long and I'm not as good as I am on drums, but if I spent the time I spent drumming on guitar, maybe I'd be way better at guitar.

[uniongoon]

Wow, cool and very deep thread. It is funny, I just posted on another thread something that would of fit right in here. Like Stevo, I am 47 and have had drums since I was 7 or 8.
From the age of 18 to about 26, I did nothing but play, live, and breathe drums. I was determined to be the best. I was so chronic, I would have a set of sticks with me whereever I went. Watching other bands, I would be practicing on the heel of my shoe under the table.
I worked so hard and it just seemed like it did not sink in compared to some other drummers I knew that hardly practiced at all. I believe some people "have it"

I did attain the ability to play quite well, but I think I had to work at it alot harder than others. Now, in my older years, I realize I have a great talent at learning to do many other things quicker than most people. Now I build furniture, I can fix most things mechanical, I re finish and customize drums as well as custom paint my bikes, cars and helmets. I can landscape, build houses, pretty well anything to do with my hands, comes quite easily.

Once in a while I hear a comment from my brother or an old friend where someone commented that they thought I was the best drummer to come out of my area, so even though I did not achieve the greatness I once thought I could, I did leave a mark and my hard work was not for nothing.

[legobeast]

Jack Russell will never become a Great Dane


Biased viewpoint?

I have a feeling that all of the budding drummers that tried their best, but never made it at all are not a part of this forum. They're probably on forums discussing how to cook pea soup better than Delia Smith or how to be a better striker than Pele or even how to make cartoons better than The Flintstones.

What we have here is all the folks who had just enough success to keep them interested in talking drums. Is it then not a great surprise that we have lots of stories about, 'how anyone can do it' since 'even I can do a half decent job' and 'we are all made of the same stuff' ??

I'm kind of concerned here for all of those who will virtually kill themselves to make it to the top, but just do not have the combination of biology and environment to allow them to do it.

I could put my Jack Russell Terrier on a strict regime of steroids and daily extreme workouts, but try as I might, he will never become a Great Dane!

[wy yung]

In my teaching experience (approx' 2000 + students) the bottom line physically is time spent practicing. But life doesn't always allow us the time. There are many things that can inhibbit growth, health issues, finances, family etc.

But the above physical aspect applies to muscle memory. Ideas? Where do they come from? I think from learning, listening and general observation. But when it's art, who really knows? I have never considered myself a good artist. I am probably best at learning from the past and passing that. Have I had any truly original ideas on the drums or in life? I don't know. Probably not. If I did I forgot it or didn't take it seriously.

Practice only does not an artist make. A craftsman perhaps.

[aydee]

Jack Russell will never become a Great Dane
I could put my Jack Russell Terrier on a strict regime of steroids and daily extreme workouts, but try as I might, he will never become a Great Dane!

oh yea?


40745


...

[legobeast]

oh yea?


40745


...



Nice one!!! Nice one !!! Nice one!!!!

[Swiss Matthias]

This is an ancient thread - but still one thought from me:

the problem is, Dave Weckl (to stick with the OP's example) already has invented his
style of playing. So whoever gets closest to sounding like Dave Weckl - Dave himself
still already paved his way. So even if there comes a guy and plays exactly like Dave,
he still won't be as good, because Dave talks this way, and the other guy just mimics him.

That's one thing people mustn't forget: Coming up with certain musical statements at the
right moment is a whole another story than the technical execution of things (which though
is jawdroppingly impressive already with many of the top guys).

And that musical side of things is exactly where everyone can have his/her place,
without having to have Dave Weckl's abilities.

[Pollyanna]

To say that "anybody could be Weckl if he just practiced as much as Weckl" is naive, and misses the point; a big part of the greatness IS the ability and determination and that certain ratio of qualities needed in order to have WANTED to practice as much as Weckl did. And aptitude has a huge impact on that. We tend to like what we're good at. We also tend to be good at the things we like. Both concepts have a place here, and they create a rare feedback loop. But someone without tremendous drumming and rhythmic aptitude... sooner or later that person is going to hit a point on his own individual learning curve, a block or whatever, and it's then not going to be as enjoyable for him. His desire to practice will be affected. He'll get sidetracked and become interested is something else.

Great post all-round, sttp, especially the above para. If you're naturally good at something then you get a stream of rewards for doing it. Banging you head against a brick wall day after day gets old fast.

I was lucky in my teens to be totally clueless. I practiced heaps because I could pound out horrible tripe hour after hour and think it sounded incredible. Hey, I sound almost exactly like Ian Paice and John Bonham!

When you start out, unless you are talented, having cloth ears - being able to aurally airbrush your playing - is an asset :) If I had any idea how abysmal I was I would have quit in my first year.

But ultimately, I agree. Not anyone could play like Weckl but almost anyone who loves playing enough to practice lots can reach a point where they can play bar gigs.

[Syrion]

A point I'm missing in this discussion so far is physical advantage, some people have a higher natural dexterity (fine motor skills) than others and are capable of. Some brainrelated disadvantages (disorders sound so overdramatic) like autism spectrum, ADHD and dysgraphia cause a delay in developing fine motoric skills.

But as written earlier in this thread, enough practice can overcome it because it gets automated in the end. As far as I'm aware one's offhand is slower and clumsier in general than the dominant hand as well (maybe except for people born ambi-dexterious).

Just my two cents, because I had the idea this thread seemed to be very psychological at the moment.

[topgun2021]

If we exclude people with missing limbs, then I believe so.

[Syrion]

Rick Allen lost an arm.

[topgun2021]

Rick Allen lost an arm.

Excellent point. I was mostly thinking people with more than one missing limb. For instance, I knew a guy with no legs.

If we are talking full on drum set, I don't see that happening. However it we are talking about just feet or just hands or one hand and one foot on any percussion instrument. That can happen.

[Wavelength]

My teaching experience tells me that not anyone is capable of drumming. I've come across a few students who have had the drive to play some music and, according to their parents, practiced regularly, yet couldn't overcome the simplest of coordinational, technical or timing problems. I used to think that talent (or aptitude) has little to do with becoming a musician, but reality has proven me otherwise.

[Odd-Arne Oseberg]

If one is:

1) Willing to do the work
2) Has a capable teacher.

then.....................


YES

[ambientgreg]

Re: So is ANYONE capable of drumming?

NO. As a matter of fact I have met many a person who called them selves drummers, that were also not capable of drumming.

[samthebeat]

No, even with my limited teaching experience (3 years) i have come across people that dont have rhythm. They cant find the offbeat, tried everything, and even if there were other stuff to......if they were meant to do it, it would'nt be that hard for them. All these guys are gifted with a small gift at least, and it is gift. Maybe there is something influences ones abilty to feel rhythm as they grow up, we are maybe all born equal, but these people still exist, ones with rhythm, ones without.

To play as good as Dave Wekc is now!

1 he practises like a MOFO, still does, i heard his wife left him cause he was allways woodsheding.

2 - you need the essentials, some natural rhythm, some reflexe etc.

You have to start earlyish. I fully believe that your relexes develop better when you are younger.

I think in life you should accept what you good, try and find it and roll with it. Dont beat your head against a wall.

The question which bugs me as a teacher, is how many people are walking around with this gift they havent found yet. See so many guys banging their keys on the desk at petrol stations etc, im like you drum??.....well you should mate!

Im sorry to all the try hards......everyone can learn for sure, but not everyone can be as good dave wekcl. Anyone with the gift and the love, for the love is more important, you really have to love music to achieve that kinda greatness, cuase you have to be willing to neglect your friends and your loved ones, anyone who differs is not as good as dave weckl and doesnt spend enough ignoring his wife so he can play drums.

[mikel]

I'm with Sam on this.
Most people can probably "learn" to play the drums, but being a good drummer is a gift.
I believe you can learn most things, up to a certain level, but gifted people take any activity to a level that most can only marvel at.
I don't think you can teach musical creativity. The inbuilt ability to come up with something different that fits the situation and makes the whole piece sound better.
The best just have that gift. What to leave out is as important as what you put into a song. Someone once said that music is the space between the notes. Too many drummers try to fill every space, me included sometimes.

[Skulmoski]

I asked Arthur Hull this very question. (Arthur is the grandfather of modern drum circles.)

Arthur believed we all have natural rhythm inside of us (our hearts beat after all!) He said if someone is having difficulty finding the beat, he will put his hand on their shoulder and tap to the beat of the rhythm. This helps the student find the beat. He has taught and facilitated thousands of drummers so he has some credibility to what he says.

GJS

[Pollyanna]

I asked Arthur Hull this very question. (Arthur is the grandfather of modern drum circles.)

Arthur believed we all have natural rhythm inside of us (our hearts beat after all!) He said if someone is having difficulty finding the beat, he will put his hand on their shoulder and tap to the beat of the rhythm. This helps the student find the beat. He has taught and facilitated thousands of drummers so he has some credibility to what he says.

He sounds like an especially insightful teacher, capable of drawing out talent that would remain hidden in the hands of most teachers. To be able to work out where the deeper inner blocks of students lie and know how to release those blocks is a special skill and not all that common. People can talk to psychiatrists for years without breaking through their blocks.

Obviously not everyone can be a world standard drummer, no more than anyone can learn to be a brain surgeon, win the Booker prize, or run 100 metres in under 10 seconds. And, as Matthias said, it's not just the physical skill but the understanding of music and good taste.

To borrow and Orwellism ... all animals are equal but some are more equal than others ...

[JesusMySavior]

Some may think this is off base, but from what I've seen/heard/learned... someone can be really into drums because they think drums are cool, and go for it, and learn some pretty cool stuff, and practice practice practice... but sometimes the gifting is where the feeling comes from. I believe music is a soul-nurturing experience, something that comes from deep within. You can have a desire but if it doesn't reach to the soul of who you are and what you want to accomplish, you may not reach that extra 10% of making a great performance incredible.

[mikel]

I asked Arthur Hull this very question. (Arthur is the grandfather of modern drum circles.)

Arthur believed we all have natural rhythm inside of us (our hearts beat after all!) He said if someone is having difficulty finding the beat, he will put his hand on their shoulder and tap to the beat of the rhythm. This helps the student find the beat. He has taught and facilitated thousands of drummers so he has some credibility to what he says.

GJS


You could argue that If you need to be shown where the beat is you will never make a drummer. Surely, to all drummers, young or old, the beat is natural, an instinct.
I, like most, when I taught myself to play the drums on pots and pans, literally, knew the beat instinctively. I could probably do with some lessons now, to help with some complex stuff, but to find a beat? No, and I am no pro standard drummer.

[zakhopper316]

I have really been been thinking about this question because it makes me think of school and competition so I decided to ask my dad about it when skypeing last night. My dad is an anthropologist which I know doesn't directly relate to this question but heciscalso really smart with alot of human nature stuff. He said:

"well if rhythm is proved to be a genetic trait then it sure would be the first of it's kind. Usually partially genetic traits such as alcoholism involve intense chemical reactions in the body. I would look at the early life experiences of people and try to determine if they will make good drummers or musicians. I would suspect parents that listened to SEAL or whoever else on the weekends while cooking breakfast for the family would go on to raise very rhythmic children, much more rhythmic than the parents that watched the news while cooking on a weekend."

Just another opinion. Is there really a chance that people are born with rhythm skills? I donno but I'm skeptical because when we have these god given talented 6 year old drummers they are always accompanied with hours of daily practice from like 2 years old. Always.

[mikel]

I have really been been thinking about this question because it makes me think of school and competition so I decided to ask my dad about it when skypeing last night. My dad is an anthropologist which I know doesn't directly relate to this question but heciscalso really smart with alot of human nature stuff. He said:

"well if rhythm is proved to be a genetic trait then it sure would be the first of it's kind. Usually partially genetic traits such as alcoholism involve intense chemical reactions in the body. I would look at the early life experiences of people and try to determine if they will make good drummers or musicians. I would suspect parents that listened to SEAL or whoever else on the weekends while cooking breakfast for the family would go on to raise very rhythmic children, much more rhythmic than the parents that watched the news while cooking on a weekend."

Just another opinion. Is there really a chance that people are born with rhythm skills? I donno but I'm skeptical because when we have these god given talented 6 year old drummers they are always accompanied with hours of daily practice from like 2 years old. Always.

Hi Zak.
I was not suggesting people were born with drumming technique, merely a sense of rhythm.
Technique is something you add to the basic sense of timing, by practice. I still believe the best exponents of any pursuit are born, not made.
Most people can get better at most things by repetition, or practice if you like, but the truly
talented are just that. Different.

[mathewstaci]

Hi Zak.
I was not suggesting people were born with drumming technique, merely a sense of rhythm.
Technique is something you add to the basic sense of timing, by practice. I still believe the best exponents of any pursuit are born, not made.
Most people can get better at most things by repetition, or practice if you like, but the truly
talented are just that. Different.

I agree with you. In my opinion there are only few people blessed with extraordinary talent, they will surely become popular. We can not get every thing by practise unless we have talent. If you have talent and by practising it will be more powerful and helpful to became a successful person in that particular field.

[toddy]

of course! i would even debate whether people have skill ceilings... imo it just depends how much work you're willing to put in, and where you want to end up

if you can dance, you can drum!
if you can drum, you can't always dance

[Mad About Drums]

Generaly, I would say yes, if you can walk, you can drum. :)

Again, generaly speaking, when a person walk, she/he does it at a steady pace, with evenly spaced steps, therefore, this action is a form of rythm, now not everyone and anyone are willing of learning drumming, but IMO, that's another subject. :))

[resohead]

I heard a pro football coach say about a hall of fame player that if he had played up to his potential he never would have made the team. The guy had the desire and could take things up another step when needed.

Determination matters but if you are born with faulty genetics you can practice 15 hours a day and never achieve Tony Royster, Jr level when he was 11 years old.

[Too Many Songs]

of course! i would even debate whether people have skill ceilings... imo it just depends how much work you're willing to put in, and where you want to end up



I would say of course not. Speaking from personal experience, work will take you so far but I could never play like Roy Haynes or Jack DeJonette - to take just two drummers who are exceptional not for their technical mastery but because of their artistry - their musicality. And it is those qualities which make them great. I could no more play like that than I could paint like Picasso or write like Steinbeck.

Writing is a pretty good analogy actually. We can all write (spelling and grammar on this forum excepted) but very few can WRITE. Drumming's the same except fewer people have mastered the basic mechanics of it. We think because we can play a paradiddle that somehow we are drummers. Most of us are no more drummers than we are writers.

[Swiss Matthias]

We can all write (spelling and grammar on this forum excepted) but very few can WRITE. Drumming's the same except fewer people have mastered the basic mechanics of it. We think because we can play a paradiddle that somehow we are drummers. Most of us are no more drummers than we are writers.
Nice analogy and well said.

[toddy]

I would say of course not. Speaking from personal experience, work will take you so far but I could never play like Roy Haynes or Jack DeJonette - to take just two drummers who are exceptional not for their technical mastery but because of their artistry - their musicality. And it is those qualities which make them great. I could no more play like that than I could paint like Picasso or write like Steinbeck.

Writing is a pretty good analogy actually. We can all write (spelling and grammar on this forum excepted) but very few can WRITE. Drumming's the same except fewer people have mastered the basic mechanics of it. We think because we can play a paradiddle that somehow we are drummers. Most of us are no more drummers than we are writers.

actually that's a pretty good point. i suppose some people do have a natural something about themselves when it comes to drumming. i'm not sure if it's technical ability though, i'd like to think it's more to do with metrenomes

[mandrew]

Anyone is capable of beating on a drum and being happy doing it. What do you consider drumming? I have known guys who loved to beat on drums. They never played with a band because they had no sense of time whatsoever. They had no concept of improvisation, and couldn't count to 4 evenly. Can anyone play the bassoon, cello, or flute? Why would drums be different if you consider them to be serious instruments?