Playing Metal with Traditional Grip or Matched Grip?

[h3r3tic]

I´m still undecided where to play matched or traditional
When I learned how to play traditional grip, I stoped playing match for like almost a month, I realized that it was really cool and confortable except that I couldn´t feel confortable when leading the left part of the drumset (the left cymbals)...
Later I´ve tried to play Open-handed on matched which is really awsone but somehow I think that my left hand is too slow to lead :/

I´m still confused, please help me :)
Thanks

[Drummer Karl]

Never stop playing plaing with one of the two grips!!! I would recommend playing with trad grip when you play lighter things, you won`t have as much power with trad. as with matched...I like to take trad grip when playing Jazzy stuff, Fusion...lighter Funk and light rock...all those "lighter" music styles.
but when gigging or practicing with my band I also use matched grip because we also play heavier rock where I need more power.

...so practice with both grips!!

Karl

[centralzeke]

My two cents is to practice leading with your left REALLY slowly and always do it for a period of time per beat or exercise (2 + minutes). Remember your left isn't even used to continuously playing slowly for so long. It seems boring to play so slow but it's worth it. I think people should spend more time on matched then traditional but that's just me.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I've said it before and I'll say it here again:

Technically, Matched grip is superior. The trad grip is an adaptation of the marching grip.

Contemporary muscial styles demand a far greater range of dynamics than the music of the 40's did. (Essentially on the LOUD end). While it is possible to achieve the same results with trad as with matched, it is more difficult and puts a greater strain on the structures of the shoulder, arm and hand.

Those are the facts. Hitting hard with trad grip tends to hurt more over time. Not because of stick shock because your technique should handle that but because of the constant internal rotation of the shoulder whch can lead to shortening of the shoulder muscles (and pain) over time. Of course, this will not happen to everyone.

Now, as far as actual choices, that's up to you. If you're playing straight-head jazz on a 4 pc then you just may want to stick with trad. If you're playing some aggressive Latin stuff you may want matched. For metal, you want matched. (If anyone comes out FOR trad in metal I'll shoot myself. May as well have double kick rolls in jazz)

Please don't make the mistake or saying that one is legit and the other isn't. Classical percussionists use matched while trad jazz guys use...trad. They both have a legit history behind them.

Personally: I prefer players who make a choice and boldy proclaim it. I don't care WHAT you use but have a reason for it. Like Tony Williams (trad, duh) who said that he ENJOYED having his left different from his right. Or Dom Famularo, who says that open-hand style with matched grip is the way of the future.

No wishi-washiness there! There's definitely something to be said for taking a stand for your choice. Granted, it's only a technical thing but I definitely see that bold attitude in those player's personalities and it comes out in their playing. They are saying what THEY want to say in the way they want to say it.

See, you CAN put a little artistic value judgement in a technique thread!

[emmerson]

well nick piercy (drummer for the faceless) plays traditional i guess its just about personal preference but i PERSONALLY enjoy match grip better

[h3r3tic]

Thanks guys :) so looks like I´ll be using matched on open-handed. Even Yesterday at a localbar I was discussing with a friend of mine which is a hell of a drummer ;) and he was saying no to switch to traditional since I was totally confortable with matched :)

Thank you so much
Peace

[cornelius]

That's cool that you're sticking (!) with open handed matched. Dom Famularo recently got me interested in that approach, and although I like playing trad on the kit (I just can't get comfortable when crossing over with matched) open handed has really strengthened my left hand. One thing I found helpful is to set up a ride cymbal next to my hihat when practicing so that I play the ride with my weaker hand. It really helped my touch so when I went back to the hihat, it felt better.

[Ian Ballard]

I've personally used traditional grip with a metal-type band. Really though, it's no longer "traditional grip", considering it has changed to meet the demands of the modern drumset.

Vinnie Colaiuta played drums on the last Megadeth album and I'll bet a year's salary that he was using trad-grip.

Use whatever works!!

[Raymond Bloom]

he was saying no to switch to traditional since I was totally confortable with matched
Yes, that's a really good advice, because it takes about a year to get trad grip to the level where your matched is, if you want to expand your technique then it's a different story!

As for the open-handed playing, I don't know, I don't like this approach, because one thing doesn't make sense to me - if you're a righty, then why would you want to ride with your left? So this means you will be using this hand more often but your stronger hand less, for me that just doesn't make sense, of course, you will develope that weaker hand but in the same time, you would have more controll if practiced with your right hand as the leading hand
Keep in mind that Billy Cobham, who, as we all know, invented open-handed playing, was a lefty!

[Raymond Bloom]

Those are the facts. Hitting hard with trad grip tends to hurt more over time. Not because of stick shock because your technique should handle that but because of the constant internal rotation of the shoulder whch can lead to shortening of the shoulder muscles (and pain) over time. Of course, this will not happen to everyone.
I disagree, that really depends on how do you hit that rimshot, I myself use the Moeller approach and first of all, I feel absolutely no shock to may hand and actually very less effort, there are plenty of ways how to hit a surface, of course, some of them can do harm

[bouncingdude]

I have used traditional grip since I was a little kid and now at age 32 I feel most comfortable with my traditional grip even though I can switch to matched if I want to. I have a couple of music degrees and I have studied many different styles. However, my left hand has better technique with traditional grip. I play in a pop/rock band ala Jimmy Eat World, All American Rejects, Blink 182, and Simple Plan and I rock the house with traditional grip. I don't believe there's a right or wrong grip. It is what you feel comfortable with, what you know the best. Ultimately, your groove doesn't rely on the grip but it relies on your feel, your understanding of the style. Billy Stewart has an immense understanding of jazz and musical phrasings and he plays matched grip. Vinnie has a scary, amazing, and slamming backbeat with a traditional grip. I angle my snare drum slightly to the right for my traditional grip. Keith Carlock angles his to the front and he plays with a traditional grip. He has an amazing feel and fluidity to his approach. You cannot compartmentalize grips. The feel comes from within. I do however believe that the open hand approach is a great skill to know and it's something I would like to tackle. Yes, it is good to know both grip to have more arsenal. For example, I have needed to switch to matched grip for a gig/practice due to nasty blisters that didn't allow me to play with a traditional grip at that time. But, like I said before, my traditional grip feels more comfortable for me. Study the feel, the style, the music and feel it and use the grip that lets you interpret the art within you the best.

Practice on!

Pierre

[Ian Ballard]

As for the open-handed playing, I don't know, I don't like this approach, because one thing doesn't make sense to me - if you're a righty, then why would you want to ride with your left? So this means you will be using this hand more often.
Keep in mind that Billy Cobham, who as we all know invented open-handed playing, was a lefty!

Yes but Billy could ride wth either hand and did often. Billy is ambidexterous. I talked to him after a clinic and I was pleasently surprised that we went through the same learning curve. He and I both are naturally left-handed, but learned on a right-handed kit and was taught right-handed technique, mostly because we didn't know any better. This works as an advantage if you choose an ambidexterous route.

To me, it makes perfect sense. Not that everybody can afford it, but having two hihats and two rides and a kit that is symetrical, makes this really easy.

Back on the topic... A good Moeller technique and some practice can yeild great results to achieve power with trad grip. I've even used the butt ends with traditional and it really produced some powerful snare hits. And not to sound like a hypocrite, but I'm really weak at using trad grip with my right, but I'm working on it.

[Raymond Bloom]

Yes but Billy could ride wth either hand and did often. Billy is ambidexterous. I talked to him after a clinic and I was pleasently surprised that we went through the same learning curve. He and I both are naturally left-handed, but learned on a right-handed kit and was taught right-handed technique, mostly because we didn't know any better. This works as an advantage if you choose an ambidexterous route.

To me, it makes perfect sense. Not that everybody can afford it, but having two hihats and two rides and a kit that is symetrical, makes this really easy.

Back on the topic... A good Moeller technique and some practice can yeild great results to achieve power with trad grip. I've even used the butt ends with traditional and it really produced some powerful snare hits. And not to sound like a hypocrite, but I'm really weak at using trad grip with my right, but I'm working on it.
Of course being ambidexterous REALLY helps but it's tough to learn and takes a lot of time to get used to it 100% (rare is a drummer like Dom Famularo who can just one day start to play open handed!) and in my oppinion there is no one who is naturally ambidexterous, there is always one side of brain that is dominant!

For me symmetry is booring, so this is another reason why I prefear to play cross handed and trad grip

[JWM]

While I understand there is a certain feel to trad (and many of my favorite players use it), it doesn't make any sense. It was developed purely because of hardware limitations with marching snares over a hundred years ago where a shoulder strap was used, causing the drum to tilt at an angle.

How it has survived on the modern drumset is a mystery to me. By choosing trad, you're basically creating a disability for yourself, and then overcoming that disability. To me, it's almost the equivalent of being a tennis player and purposely breaking your left wrist.

[Raymond Bloom]

While I understand there is a certain feel to trad (and many of my favorite players use it), it doesn't make any sense. It was developed purely because of hardware limitations with marching snares over a hundred years ago where a shoulder strap was used, causing the drum to tilt at an angle.

How it has survived on the modern drumset is a mystery to me. By choosing trad, you're basically creating a disability for yourself, and then overcoming that disability. To me, it's almost the equivalent of being a tennis player and purposely breaking your left wrist.
Yeah, if you look a that this way, trad grip doesn't make much sense.

Why have it survived? Because that technique actually works as good as matched grip (and for some things even better)! About me, I have to say that I switched to trad grip year ago and I'm never (never say never lol) going to go back to matched.

If you want to see actually why trad grip has survived over the years, check out this video http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/Jojomayermoeller.html
again, trad is no better than mached and matched no better than trad, they are just different and each one has it's advantages and disadvantages.

For those who say, the disadvantage of trad grip is power, I'd say wrong, I see why but I can say that I never had that kind of problems my trad grip. when I got some basics of it down, my trad grip was as strong as my matched

[Raymond Bloom]

Actually, H3r3tic, the choice is yours, we can not decide it to you!

I'd say - if you are comfortable with matched do not switch to trad grip!

though, I was comfortable with matched grip also but I switched to trad grip...and I'm glad I did it I'm a technique geek hehe, I like to learn everything, this was a huge turning point actually, because I had to somehow sacrify about a year to learn trad grip but for me it was worth that

[h3r3tic]

Yes, that's a really good advice, because it takes about a year to get trad grip to the level where your matched is, if you want to expand your technique then it's a different story!

As for the open-handed playing, I don't know, I don't like this approach, because one thing doesn't make sense to me - if you're a righty, then why would you want to ride with your left? So this means you will be using this hand more often but your stronger hand less, for me that just doesn't make sense, of course, you will develope that weaker hand but in the same time, you would have more controll if practiced with your right hand as the leading hand
Keep in mind that Billy Cobham, who, as we all know, invented open-handed playing, was a lefty!

I don´t think that the option that I was thinking about using the open handed was not about developing the left hand leads, I was interested in it beacause there are no crossing arms (ofcourse there´s always exceptions)

Wow, I never thought that traditional grip would take that long to get it strong as I were in the matched

Hey! you like to learn everything? that makes two of us :p lol
Thanks ;)

[djp132]

Vinnie Colaiuta played drums on the last Megadeth album

I totally did not know that.

I'm a big Megadeth fan and I went nuts when I found out Mustaine was putting it back together with a new album, but VINNIE?!? WOW, how could I have missed that?

I actually didn't believe it at first, so I checked around online and sure enough.
I'm listening to that album again right now with a whole new set of ears...

Learn something new everyday...

[h3r3tic]

Learn something new everyday...

That´s waht I´m trying to do ;)

Thanks dude, you rule! :)

[Ian Ballard]

I totally did not know that.

I'm a big Megadeth fan and I went nuts when I found out Mustaine was putting it back together with a new album, but VINNIE?!? WOW, how could I have missed that?

I actually didn't believe it at first, so I checked around online and sure enough.
I'm listening to that album again right now with a whole new set of ears...

Learn something new everyday...

Yeah, and the Warren Cucurullo album he played on was an advanced lesson in math-metal, to the max!!! If you haven't heard it... definately go check it out.

[JWM]

Yeah, if you look a that this way, trad grip doesn't make much sense.

Why have it survived? Because that technique actually works as good as matched grip (and for some things even better)! About me, I have to say that I switched to trad grip year ago and I'm never (never say never lol) going to go back to matched.

If you want to see actually why trad grip has survived over the years, check out this video http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/Jojomayermoeller.html
again, trad is no better than mached and matched no better than trad, they are just different and each one has it's advantages and disadvantages.

For those who say, the disadvantage of trad grip is power, I'd say wrong, I see why but I can say that I never had that kind of problems my trad grip. when I got some basics of it down, my trad grip was as strong as my matched
You know what's gonna sound strange coming after my last post? I've decided to switch to trad! Like today!

I think I was trying to avoid my gut feelings on the kind of feel that it offers (which I actually prefer to matched). I've messed around with it over the years, but it just feels right now.

Another reason is that over the years using matched with the left, I developed a strange anomaly with my left hand technique. I'm a big ghost note player (Garibaldi style stuff), and from years of "just playing" and not paying close enough attention to my technique, I do this push/pull thing witht the thumb that bugs the heck out of me. It's just become automatic, but it doesn't feel right or stable-- never did. Now that I fully understand why my left technique didn't feel right, I'm also realizing that there's no way I can undo fifteen years of that developing. So I'm just starting fresh with trad now, and I'm really excited to take on the challenge... not to mention that most of my favorite players (Gadd, Weckl, Donati and Mayer) all use trad.

I'll keep you guys posted on how it's coming along!

BTW-- do you almost feel a responsibility as a younger player to keep this part of drumming history alive? It's like most of us younger players are going matched, and it's now becoming different to go trad.

[Raymond Bloom]

You know what's gonna sound strange coming after my last post? I've decided to switch to trad! Like today!

I think I was trying to avoid my gut feelings on the kind of feel that it offers (which I actually prefer to matched). I've messed around with it over the years, but it just feels right now.
haha, so I'm guilty, right?! lol

I'm also realizing that there's no way I can undo fifteen years of that developing.
harsh, but very, very true! it's so hard to get rid of bad habbits, a completely new grip could really help. Actaully I had the same kind of problem, I also liked to throw in a lot of ghost notes (my first influence was funk, funk and funk!) so my left hands grip was different

BTW-- do you almost feel a responsibility as a younger player to keep this part of drumming history alive? It's like most of us younger players are going matched, and it's now becoming different to go trad.
You know, for me, the turning point was a clinic with Jojo Mayer, this Moeller technique video sample is a really good example of all the advantages of trad grip, that was what I started with and to my surprise it went extreamely well.
as for the tradition, you know, I live in a small country with just 2,6 million inhabitants and I'm the ONLY drummer who plays 100% trad grip...! There is almost no one who can theach it here, so it was an additional challenge, I had to literally learn from myself and some videos (Jojo Mayer ones being the most, especially the Modern Drummer 2005)
I also want to prove that trad can be 100% equal to the matched grip and for some things work even better and also, I want to keep the tradition, especially since I really like traditional grip!

PS.
definetely get Steve Smith's DVD - ''The History Of US Beat'' excellent educational material and great explanation of trad grip, Dave Weckl's Natural Evolution is also very good and also, keep your eyes open... a dvd form Jojo Mayer will come out soon, as he says: ''I want it to be like an encycopedia of techniques from the last 200 years''
damn... I'm excited!! :-)

[djp132]

a dvd form Jojo Mayer will come out soon, as he says: ''I want it to be like an encycopedia of techniques from the last 200 years''

Thats what I hope my DVD to be... hmmm

How can I get around this conundrum...



Derrick

[JWM]

haha, so I'm guilty, right?! lol

harsh, but very, very true! it's so hard to get rid of bad habbits, a completely new grip could really help. Actaully I had the same kind of problem, I also liked to throw in a lot of ghost notes (my first influence was funk, funk and funk!) so my left hands grip was different
Sounds like we're both pretty similar players, style wise.

And maybe because I have OCD, it was bugging me so much to not have my left hand behaving like my right in matched! I feel like my right is doing what I want it to do, and it'll be cool to work trad from the ground up and have the consistency I want.

You know, for me, the turning point was a clinic with Jojo Mayer, this Moeller technique video sample is a really good example of all the advantages of trad grip, that was what I started with and to my surprise it went extreamely well.
as for the tradition, you know, I live in a small country with just 2,6 million inhabitants and I'm the ONLY drummer who plays 100% trad grip...!
Wow... well, be sure to make some noise in the U.S. soon!

I also want to prove that trad can be 100% equal to the matched grip and for some things work even better and also, I want to keep the tradition, especially since I really like traditional grip!
Yeah, you know I was working on some things a bit today, and I find that the reverse Moeller double has a lot more power with trad. As you know, JoJo talks about it in that vid, and I think it's because of how trad is a rotating movement. And of course this allows him to do sick stuff with ghost notes.

PS.
definetely get Steve Smith's DVD - ''The History Of US Beat'' excellent educational material and great explanation of trad grip, Dave Weckl's Natural Evolution is also very good and also, keep your eyes open... a dvd form Jojo Mayer will come out soon, as he says: ''I want it to be like an encycopedia of techniques from the last 200 years''
damn... I'm excited!! :-)
I've been looking to check out Steve Smith's DVD for awhile... I'm already using the constant release motion for my bass drum playing (which is only single pedal at the moment), and I can't imagine not using it now.

And yes-- JoJo needs to get that DVD out! It would be cool to see something from Mangini at some point too.

Cheers bud.

[JWM]

Thats what I hope my DVD to be... hmmm

How can I get around this conundrum...



Derrick
Hey, believe me Derrick, everyone around here would be interested in a full DVD set from you!

[k3ng]

as for the tradition, you know, I live in a small country with just 2,6 million inhabitants and I'm the ONLY drummer who plays 100% trad grip...! There is almost no one who can theach it here, so it was an additional challenge, I had to literally learn from myself and some videos (Jojo Mayer ones being the most, especially the Modern Drummer 2005)


Heh, I can identify with that. I'd like to think I've learned my trad grip well for someone without a direct teacher. I might be doing it all wrong, but I haven't had any limitations thus far, and I'm relaxed... I think.


I also want to prove that trad can be 100% equal to the matched grip and for some things work even better and also, I want to keep the tradition, especially since I really like traditional grip!


Yeah! That's the way to go! We'll show em... hahaa

As for the question at hand, I believe after all the technique developments in both grips, I'd say there are very few limitations to them. I think it has come to a stage where there isnt such a thing as 'Trad Grip can't do this' or 'matched can't do that', and if you wanted to do something on those specifics you would have to choose grips.
I say choose grips freely knowing that they'll achieve what you want to achieve if you put behind them dedicated hours of practice.

[Raymond Bloom]

Wow... well, be sure to make some noise in the U.S. soon!
will do!! ;-)

Yeah, you know I was working on some things a bit today, and I find that the reverse Moeller double has a lot more power with trad. As you know, JoJo talks about it in that vid, and I think it's because of how trad is a rotating movement. And of course this allows him to do sick stuff with ghost notes.
That's one thing I like about trad grip, that range of motion, so I can gain wider range of dynamics easyer, trad grip is more rotating motion, while matched grip is more straight (that's the reason why it's naturally easyer to do rimshots with matched)
since I don't need to do alot of rimshots with my left hand but instead of that I need really wide spectrum of dynamics I find traditional grip as the easyest way to achieve my goal, also the Moeller whip - I just LOVE it!!

Cheers bud.
good luck, keep us posted about your progress!

[Raymond Bloom]

Yeah! That's the way to go! We'll show em... hahaa
Go, trad grip!!! :-)

I think it has come to a stage where there isnt such a thing as 'Trad Grip can't do this' or 'matched can't do that'
very true, if I change my grip, then it's because of the feal not because I ca't do somethnig in one or other grip, for example, if I want really heavy rimshots I turn my stick over and hold it in matched grip, not that I can't do as loud rimshots with trad grip, but it just sounds different!

and if I want to do a lot of dynamic stuff...then.. heck, I can do only rimshots with matched, my left hand has forgotten how to play matched... lol

seriousely, if you practice trad grip, practice also matched grip, because weird, but after about two or three months playing trad grip only you will be surpirsed that you can't play matched any more! A mistake I made...! But now it's all back where I want it to be

[fijjibo]

Ive been learning trad grip, and I love how it feels.

I also like switching between the two types of grips.

I use trad now for sensitive grooving, but switch back to matched when I want power and speed.

Im with Raymond on this one.

[h3r3tic]

Ive been learning trad grip, and I love how it feels.

I also like switching between the two types of grips.

I use trad now for sensitive grooving, but switch back to matched when I want power and speed.

Im with Raymond on this one.

Well, I did write this thread a few months ago when I was undecided whether to play trad or matched. But after a few months I stoped wondering if it would be better to play matched or trad and started to concentrate ONLY on matched. It feels much more natural than trad and it's more powerful than trad - no doubt about it (specialy for metal). And a few months ago not only did I concentrated on matched grip, but on Open Handed playing as well, which consists on not crossing your arms and lead with both hands. To use this type of playing, I think it is better to play macthed than trad.

Well, that's just my opinion ;)

[Raymond Bloom]

It feels much more natural than trad and it's more powerful than trad - no doubt about it (specialy for metal).
I can't agree on this one! I have absolutely no problems with more powerfull strokes in trad grip, things has changed for me about what I sayed earlyer in this thread, now I use 100% trad grip (on left hand only, of course!)

The problem is, most of drummers that play matched have problems with power, speed etc using trad grip!
You have to spend almost a year playing trad to gain full controll, power, speed etc

Of course you lacked power, that's because you haven't practiced trad grip as much as needed!

[h3r3tic]

I can't agree on this one! I have absolutely no problems with more powerfull strokes in trad grip, things has changed for me about what I sayed earlyer in this thread, now I use 100% trad grip (on left hand only, of course!)

The problem is, most of drummers that play matched have problems with power, speed etc using trad grip!
You have to spend almost a year playing trad to gain full controll, power, speed etc

Of course you lacked power, that's because you haven't practiced trad grip as much as needed!

I think it's all bout practising one thing. Since I've been practising only on matched and wont practise on trad, matched just feels much more natural to me of course :P lol

The reason why I think that matched grip will always be more powerful than trad is because on matched it involves more muscles than the ones used on trad.

I'm not saying that matched is better trad. I can't say that!
You have fantastic drummers still playing trad and they rule! even on your video Raymond, you have a fast trad left hand ;)

There's one cool thing about trad is playing grooves with ghost notes on your left hand.
The feel is so cool, because the stick is laying side ways on your hand so it's much more effortless to play the ghost notes with trad.

I can do them as well on matched but the feel is conpletly diferent.
Matched rulez!
So once again, it's just my opinion

And thank you! ;)

[Raymond Bloom]

The reason why I think that matched grip will always be more powerful than trad is because on matched it involves more muscles than the ones used on trad.

I'm not saying that matched is better trad. I can't say that!
You have fantastic drummers still playing trad and they rule! even on your video Raymond, you have a fast trad left hand ;)

There's one cool thing about trad is playing grooves with ghost notes on your left hand.
The feel is so cool, because the stick is laying side ways on your hand so it's much more effortless to play the ghost notes with trad.

I can do them as well on matched but the feel is conpletly diferent.
Matched rulez!
So once again, it's just my opinion

And thank you! ;)
It depends on how you exectue the stroke, trad can involve even more muscles than matched, but that is not the point of this

matched grip is easyer to pick up, trad grip involves some serious practice before you can use it 100%! when you reach that point, trad grip is by every bit equal to your matched grip

that ghost note stuff you mentioned is typical lack of technique with trad grip, of course, it's quite easy to just drop the stick or kind of tap on the drum head, you don't need to spend countless hours to be able to do it!

Right now I'm on a level where my left hand has more power with trad grip, if I want to shake the ground with powerfull rimshots I'm not using matched grip anymore - it's trad all the way!

[Kirsh]

Less power with trad?? Virgil Donati plays with traditional also Stewart Copeland and they dont play any soft music. if you need more strength to hit with your left hand in traditional and it gets tired then you should check on you technique because from what i have learnt you play with the stick not against it.