How much do you jazz drummers spend on your foot work?

[DrummerBen1]

How much time do you jazz drummers spend on your foot work?
I presume you don't very much but yea. just wondering

Ben

[jazzsnob]

You need to spend some more time listening to jazz before asking that question. There are ways to play bass drum that are MUCH more difficult and time consuming to perfect than double bass. Buddy, as one example, had an amazing right foot. Louis Bellson essentially INVENTED double bass, Tony Williams had an amazing foot and many modern jazz drummers like Daddy Dave and Terreon Gully have amazing feet as well.

Listen more, you'll hear this stuff.

[Garvin]

Ben.... Prepare yourself for an avalanche of proud jazz drummer responses. The feet are as important as the hands. All of the independence excercises insist upon training the feet as much as the hands. Each limb is a seperate entity that should function independently, as well as dynamically. Good luck with this thread, don't be embarassed....

[jazzsnob]

Spot on Garvin, but the thing is, if someone posted a thread saying "Do you metal players really work on double bass that much? Is it important in metal?" you'd get a very harsh response as well.

[Garvin]

I could also see this going down the "jazz drummers footwork is tougher due to dynamics" road as well...

[jazzgregg]

Ben.... Prepare yourself for an avalanche of proud jazz drummer responses. The feet are as important as the hands. All of the independence excercises insist upon training the feet as much as the hands. Each limb is a seperate entity that should function independently, as well as dynamically. Good luck with this thread, don't be embarassed....

Agreed as well. Would you ask a pianist how much he uses his left hand? A guiatrist how much he picks?
If it sounds like I'm being harsh, I'm not, it's just that, really, more listening to Jazz would've caused you to not ask this question at all, like Jazzsnob mentioned.

G

[Deathmetalconga]

How much time do you jazz drummers spend on your foot work?
I presume you don't very much but yea. just wondering

Ben

How dare you presume to ask such a question! Jazz is the ultimate in nuance, learning and expression, much like a fine French wine. You will never get an answer from jazz artists - just finger-wagging that if you knew enough history to intelligently ponder such as question, then you wouldn't need to ask it in the first place.

Seriously, though, I play world beat. You can ask me how much I work on my feet and I'll give you a straight-up answer and not try to make you feel like an uneducated oaf simply because you asked a question.

www.terrasonus.com

[Garvin]

Think about it this way.... Metal drummers play powerful doublebass at blistering speeds for long amounts of time. This requires strength and endurance to project at consistant volume and support the song properly. It's a different kind of footwork that is required than the jazz idiom, and perhaps it was the strength/power/volume issue that you had foremost in your mind in asking this question....

However, if you listen to almost any capable jazz drummer you'll hear a lot of subtle syncopation that you may really enjoy, but not entirely understand it's source. It took me some time, but I eventually began using the highhat as a melodic part of my comping, instead of just on the 2 and 4. I know this is all well covered territory among the usual folks who will be replying to this thread as well, so I'll leave it to the real experts to explain.

[Dr. Jones]

How much time do you jazz drummers spend on your foot work?
I presume you don't very much but yea. just wondering

Ben

I spend quite a bit of time on my feet, I don't use a double bass pedal but I incorporate my hi-hat into my phrasing and comping all the time. (opposed to just 2 and 4) You presume not very much? Why is that? How much time do you (whatever kind of drummer you are) spend on your foot work?

[brittc89]

I spend quite a bit of time on my feet, I don't use a double bass pedal but I incorporate my hi-hat into my phrasing and comping all the time. (opposed to just 2 and 4) You presume not very much? Why is that? How much time do you (whatever kind of drummer you are) spend on your foot work?
I think he means in comparison and is looking at simply speed and not coordination or independence. I dont see why everyone gets so defensive about jazz.

[Dr. Jones]

Well he didn't specify one way or the other (speed, coordination, ect.), and if you're insuating that I'm being defensive I would have to disagree. He asked how much time jazz drummers spend on feet, I asked (essentially) the same question to him. He said he didn't think Jazz drummer's practiced feet very much, and I asked him to clarify. I hardly consider that to be defensive.

[mattsmith]

Well, I'll be honest. I think most jazz drummers spend less time on their feet than their hands. I certainly am this way, but I'm workin' on it, since there are more general demands for footwork in the present than in earlier times. With that said, those who did make it more of a predominant factor, were some of the most adept at it who ever lived.

Tony Williams and Buddy Rich were IMO the best practioners of the single pedal ever, while Louie Bellson in his prime /technique wise/ could have hung with a good metal band for sure.

I think there has been an historic de emphasis of footwork in jazz, since there has been a more or less subconscious agreement between bass players and drummers to leave more space open for the bass player's walk. Therefore, jazz footwork has seldom been at the forefront of the mainstream jazz experience.

Hey Deathmetalconga:
Seduction is a good track. Persian mode right?

[DrummerBen1]

I think he means in comparison and is looking at simply speed and not coordination or independence. I dont see why everyone gets so defensive about jazz.

Precisely.
I should of been more specific. I know that jazz drummers used quit alot of bassdrum, and theres alot of dynamics that go on as well; I know that already.
I USED to play in a deathmetal band, and I used ALOT of doublebass and yea... I knew that jazz drummers, in general, are fast with the right foot as they are with their hands, but not everyone is the same and I just wanted to know your opinion and how much each of you practice with your feet.

Suprisingly, some metal drummers don't even spend much time with their doublebass; I know some who don't - they practice more with their hands with blast beats, etc. instead.

So don't take me the wrong way.
Sorry for not being specific.

[Pete Stoltman]

Ok I consider myself as primarily a jazz drummer and will give you the straightest answer I can. I really don't separate what I'm doing between my hands and feet. Now I'm not playing a lot of the type of thing that was alluded to in regard to Buddy, Tony Williams, or Louis Bellson. However, most of my time is spent integrating all four limbs in patterns or in independence excercises. So, the short answer is that I'm working on my footwork at about the same level as my hands.

I don't think anyone should feel intimidated about asking questions on this board. Sometimes questions or comments might seem a little silly or naieve but that is not an excuse for players of other genres or playing abilities to take pot shots at the poster.

[jazzsnob]

"How dare you presume to ask such a question! Jazz is the ultimate in nuance, learning and expression, much like a fine French wine. You will never get an answer from jazz artists - just finger-wagging that if you knew enough history to intelligently ponder such as question, then you wouldn't need to ask it in the first place."

Talking like that is no way to make friends.

Yeah, sometimes people get too uptight with the jazz stuff, but people need to realize that it isn't a white and black thing. Jazz musicians and Metal musicians and world musicians all have to wake up in the morning, put their pants, go out and do stuff and interact with people and try and make music. Jazz is SIMPLE and even though a lot of crazy emotional stuff can happen and it can be amazing, the same thing goes with any music style.

But I still stand by my first point, if drummerben started a thread asking "do metal drummers work on their feet a lot? i'd assume not but i was just wonderin." he would get some way harsher responses than the ones in this thread. I don't even really think there's much harshness in this thread at all, besides deathmetalconga's little internet smart-guy rant about jazz and my statement about double bass(which I still believe is true, but I was being presumptous and wasn't helping the thread). So anyway, Ben, I think you just need to listen more.

[k3ng]

PLaying a certain style shouldnt become a sort of 'excuse' to practice different parts more or less. Whatever style you play, you should dedicate required amounts to every part in your practice. Doesn't mean that 'hey jazz drummers don't use thier bass drums as much as metal drummers. So jazz drummers don't need to practice footwork that much.'

I say, practice everything first, then decide what style you wanna play and apply those practices into it.

YOu should remove the 'jazz' word from the thread title. That would be a better question.

[jazzsnob]

Good way to look at it k3ng.

[aahznightsky]

I say, practice everything first, then decide what style you wanna play and apply those practices into it.


Not that I don't that that is a cool approach and everything, but the arguement against it, is that it is definitely a waste of time. For example, I don't play metal, so why would I waste time perfecting blast beats when I'm never ever going to use them? It's a much more efficient use of practice time practicing what you are going to use!

[Drummer Karl]

so Ben...well, to be not totally rude :-D : cool question.
and yeah, as other people said here, Louis Bellson had a great great foot technique and all the other Jazz greats. They practiced without the spring on the bass drum machine very often, so that they hadn`t any response anymore. This practice technique let them playing much more fast and dynamically. Jazz drummers have to take care about their foot technique, it is very very importent. Often it is more difficult to play some jazz comping with bass drum than playing double bass in metal or rock. You have to play with much more dynamic I think.

so, overall foot technique is an importent thing, also in Jazz!

Karl ;-)

[Drifter in the Dark]

...If you listen to almost any capable jazz drummer you'll hear a lot of subtle syncopation that you may really enjoy, but not entirely understand it's source. It took me some time, but I eventually began using the highhat as a melodic part of my comping, instead of just on the 2 and 4.

That's exactly the way I feel about jazz and Latin drummers as well. The way I see it, most of the time (but not always! I am speaking in very general terms here), rock drumming emphasizes 2 and 4 and the 8th notes in between, whereas Latin, jazz, and similarly related styles emphasize all the beats that fall in the syncopated "nooks and crannies" between all those notes. A lot of Latin rhythms, like the songo for instance, are rarely started right on the 1, so that takes some getting used to for someone like me who started out playing rock.

[low-tech]

Not that I don't that that is a cool approach and everything, but the arguement against it, is that it is definitely a waste of time. For example, I don't play metal, so why would I waste time perfecting blast beats when I'm never ever going to use them? It's a much more efficient use of practice time practicing what you are going to use!


"bomb" style blastbeats are hand/foot rolls. i can do near perfect rolls between my left hand and right foot around 200bpm. when you watch jojo mayer do those sick hand/footrolls<video on this site>, alot of metal guys can do the exact same thing right and left hand. learning something that may appear inane such as blastbeats can lead you somewhere else, perhaps something like a hand/foot drumfills with possible cymbal accents that you may like to use.

i agree with k3ng

[jazzin']

Check out Colin Bailey for some idea on how much it can and is incorporated in jazz. He's got some books out to which i believe are very popular among non-jazz drummers aswell.
He's an absolute monster with the feet (hands aswell). Think of it as another hand and you'll get an idea how much it can be used.

[aahznightsky]

"bomb" style blastbeats are hand/foot rolls. i can do near perfect rolls between my left hand and right foot around 200bpm. when you watch jojo mayer do those sick hand/footrolls<video on this site>, alot of metal guys can do the exact same thing right and left hand. learning something that may appear inane such as blastbeats can lead you somewhere else, perhaps something like a hand/foot drumfills with possible cymbal accents that you may like to use.

i agree with k3ng


Wait blast beats are hand foot rolls? I thought they were like, straight sixteenth notes on the bass, snare, and ride all at the same time. Well of course hand/foot rolls are great! Although I don't know why you're praising metal guys for being able to do the same thing leading with either hand ... all different drummers can do that.

[aahznightsky]

i can do near perfect rolls between my left hand and right foot around 200bpm.


One more thing ... can people start saying the subdivision that they're talking about?! Because it's really annoying because 200 bpm tells me nothing. 8th notes ... that's pretty cool. 16th notes ... getting better. 32nds is more of a WTF kindof speed.

[jazzsnob]

Guessing it's 16th notes aahz...

[aahznightsky]

Well I know, but it still bugs me that so many people don't say the subdivision that theyre talking about. Because sometimes theyll list a more common tempo like 100 or 115 or something. That's when you don't know what theyre talking about.

[jazzsnob]

I know exactly what you mean, but sometimes it leaves more room to sound impressive I guess.

[low-tech]

One more thing ... can people start saying the subdivision that they're talking about?! Because it's really annoying because 200 bpm tells me nothing. 8th notes ... that's pretty cool. 16th notes ... getting better. 32nds is more of a WTF kindof speed.


have you even heard a blastbeat?

its a 16th note roll, if you heard it you'd know the subdivision. they can be done a number of ways,one way is same as a handroll with the right hand hitting a cymbal and the other foot optional to complete a bassdrum roll

not the most impressive thing in the world but perhaps useful in an entire different context from which it was intended.

i can simulate double bass rolls with my tom and a single kick within a beat because i learned to blast that way.

thats my number one guitar center show-off move. i call it "fake double bass"

everything has multiple uses. thats why its good to work on everything then see where it can aid you learning a style of music. most blastbeats are what anyone would do drilling singlestrokes,flams in coordination with thier double kick or single kick.

blastbeats,imo,would be excellent exercises even for folks whod never play them in a musical context.

[jazzgregg]

have you even heard a blastbeat?

its a 16th note roll, if you heard it you'd know the subdivision. they can be done a number of ways,one way is same as a handroll with the right hand hitting a cymbal and the other foot optional to complete a bassdrum roll

not the most impressive thing in the world but perhaps useful in an entire different context from which it was intended.

i can simulate double bass rolls with my tom and a single kick within a beat because i learned to blast that way.

thats my number one guitar center show-off move. i call it "fake double bass"

everything has multiple uses. thats why its good to work on everything then see where it can aid you learning a style of music. most blastbeats are what anyone would do drilling singlestrokes,flams in coordination with thier double kick or single kick.

blastbeats,imo,would be excellent exercises even for folks whod never play them in a musical context.

Tony Williams, inventor and master of the blastbeat.

G

[jazzsnob]

Tony Williams, inventor and master of the blastbeat.

G


Amen to that.


Seriously, some guys shred all sorts of odd note grouping in between their right foot and left hand, WHILE improvising with their right hand and left foot on the ride and hi-hat, playing swing.

That's how you do a musical blast beat.

[aahznightsky]

Ah well then that's my mistake. I was under the impression that a blast beat was something else entirely, and I only had heard metal drummers talking about it. And is there more than one blast beat? Because I'm not sure how you're describing it ... it's just a single stroke roll between hands and feet?

[biscut]

Jazz players do a lot with the hi-hat also. nice control and speed, clean sounds.

Jazz players are maybe not so fast as they can divide a phrase between feet and hands and make it sound like one idea, also those phrases are syncopated, with rests and dotted
values.

Earlier jazz like swing and before they were more time keepers.

When a style of music has been around for a while of course the envelope gets pushed and the technique improves.

That is why in places like PIT drummers learn all the styles. Jazz and funk has to help
a rock player.

[low-tech]

i didnt mean to sidetrack this puppy with the blastbeat, but yeah, it can have other uses.

all i have to say about playing swing, when i open mel bays jazz cookbook and play what written, getting the bass hits is the hardest part for me. and thats just getting the beat playable, not necessarily up to par with what would be acceptable jazz playing in a musical situation.

the footwork is hard

[Swift]

Well, I never used to do much footwork in jazz, although I still practiced it for other styles. However, over the last year I've been changing my style to include much more hihat work, after spending time listening to a load of Papa Jo Jones, Sonny Payne, Max Roach etc. Plus the pianist I'm working with keeps asking me to drop the odd bomb on the bass, and in rehearsals he sometimes makes me do exercises like playing a fast swing all the way through without hitting the bass drum on the beat even once...nightmare. Still, at least I'm starting to get creative with both feet.

[rendezvous_drummer]

FEET!!! Seriously, feet are just as important as the hands are. Like everyone has said here, listen to Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, PJJ, Max Roach...all those guys. They have excellent feet skills. You need to have a good Hi hat foot and of course the 4 way independance. I'm still working on it, but I practice rudiments with my feet fer about an hour a day.

Use yer feet boy

[bballdrummer34]

I think it is important to learn how to play the drums... do the feet play the drums as well as the hands? yes. I dont know why people split the genres so much. drums are drums, bigger bass drums, less toms, more cymbals, bigger sticks whatever. Yea yea different styles call for different things, but Im pretty sure if you're a "jazz" drummer and someone calls you for a "metal" gig that PAYS MONEY you would take it. Learn to play the drums dont limit yourself.

[wy yung]

How much time do you jazz drummers spend on your foot work?
I presume you don't very much but yea. just wondering

Ben

Hello Ben.

Well you have sure asked a loaded question. My immediate thought when reading your question was not to jump in in defence of jazz drummers and their smelly feet. Nor was it to criticize the smelly feet of the rock and roll drummer. Rather, it was the thought that how much time someone spends practicing is dependant upon the individual and has nothing whatsoever to do with the style or instrument a person chooses to play.

The thought that no truly experienced musician would even ask such a question also came to me. So the question, rightly or wrongly, made me think you are either very young or very inexperienced. There is nothing wrong with either. So I also do not see the need to become defensive or any other emmotionally responsive act.

I would however like to make a suggestion. And this suggestion is in favor of all drums and drummers. It matters not the style. Whether or not it is jazz, bossa, samba, afro cuban, heavy metal, emo or any other style, what connects them is rhythm. And at the heart of much of this is an instrument we all play: the drumset. It is a truly remarkable instrument. It is neither controlled nor ruled by any one style. It moves freely within all styles and masters every one of them. And it is drummers, our brothers, who play them. So I think it wise to forget thinking in terms of style. Screw style. Styles come and go, but the drumset remains. So why not check out ALL the styles that this wonderful instrument has contributed to? You wont be disappointed and instead you will come away enlightened and enriched.

[crlujan]

How much time do I spend working on my feet? Not enough.

[Eric]

I think someone could presume jazz drummers work on their feet less than rock drummers could be the sound of the music. Rock has a huge low bass drum sound, while a jazz bass drum is usually higher pitched, and needs to blend more than it needs to "cut" through the other instruments. Plus it's very hard to convincingly fit double bass drum into straight ahead jazz.

[jazzethan!]

Jazz drummers work on their feet in a different sense than rock drummers do, I think. In jazz music, less emphasis is put on chops than on feel. It seems that in jazz, one should work on smooth improvised conversation between all four limbs--listen to Bill Stewart or a number of other very involved modern jazz drummers--so jazzers would spend a lot of time coordinating their limbs so the sounds from the drums feel good and swing. I don't think you'll see a lot of guys working on their speed as much as they would in death metal because thats not emphasized.

[jazzethan!]

Hello Ben.

So I think it wise to forget thinking in terms of style. Screw style. Styles come and go, but the drumset remains. So why not check out ALL the styles that this wonderful instrument has contributed to? You wont be disappointed and instead you will come away enlightened and enriched.

So wy yung, I agree with you for the most part but don't you think that's really idealistic? You are right, but at the same time if you go to a jazz gig and play a cool beat but the saxophone player wants a swing ride pattern, you can't just say No. You'd get fired. If you go to a rock gig and play a cool beat but the guitarist would really be diggin a straight rock beat, you'd get fired, too. I think you need the best of both worlds. Learn each style individually and know what each is traditionally about. Then, once you've mastered those (you don't have to wait until mastery, but you get what I'm saying), you can musically add in elements of all different styles--namely, pure music, as you were saying.

[caprisun3484]

a good jazz drummer will use both their hi hat foot and bass pedal foot and i think that's something that isn't done so much in rock drums

[Legacyrik]

How dare you presume to ask such a question! Jazz is the ultimate in nuance, learning and expression, much like a fine French wine. You will never get an answer from jazz artists - just finger-wagging that if you knew enough history to intelligently ponder such as question, then you wouldn't need to ask it in the first place.

Seriously, though, I play world beat. You can ask me how much I work on my feet and I'll give you a straight-up answer and not try to make you feel like an uneducated oaf simply because you asked a question.

www.terrasonus.com

Hehe, thank you.
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