Wrists Or Fingers

[Lance69]

I don't know whether to use wrists or fingers.
You can go extremely fast with both.

For example:
Mike Mangini -wrists
Jotan Afanador, Art Verdi -fingers
Buddy Rich -both... wrist and fingers

My problem is that my right hand uses alot more wrist and my left hand uses alot more fingers and so I don't know whether to start just using my wrists or fingers.
I play American grip by the way.

I need some help.
Thanks.

[mr_hayward_99]

i thinks the american grip is designed (or is) used so you can utilise both firnger and wrist movement.

using both fingers and wrist is useful in for different applications.

why dont you try working on just you wrist movement (german) to train you wrist power) then work on u fingers as well

[Raymond Bloom]

I don't know whether to use wrists or fingers.
You can go extremely fast with both.

For example:
Mike Mangini -wrists
Jotan Afanador, Art Verdi -fingers
Buddy Rich -both... wrist and fingers

My problem is that my right hand uses alot more wrist and my left hand uses alot more fingers and so I don't know whether to start just using my wrists or fingers.
I play American grip by the way.

I need some help.
Thanks.
Don't look at Mangini's technique as ordinary, it's very specific and I doubt that it would work for everybody.

Normaly on a drumset you wouldn't be using pure fingercontroll much, moslty wrists but with fingers involved, so the more you practice fingercontroll the more you would (and be able to) utilize it by backing up your wrists

Generaly you should be looking at it this way - to go faster you have to use smaller muscle groups (like fingers) and and try to isolate other muscles as much as possible

Jojo Mayer:
''check out the 2nd volume of the DCI Buddy Rich video tape (60' &70'). He plays a solo almost entirely on his cymbals. At some point he beautifully displays the left hand finger thing. It's the only footage i know showing him doin'it. Get it!
I think his secret , besides tha fact that he was totally relaxed while doing it, was that he could compleately isolate the finger movement from the rest of the hand. Almost no wrist action.That's cruical to get the speed: less mass = more agility /speed.''

My advice would be to learn the Moeller technique, it's extreamely useful and also would help gaining speed from your wrists.

But what's more important is to learn as much different techniques as possible, because they all work together and depending on a situation you would want to switch from one to another

[DrumProgressive]

I spent a good amount of time practicing solely my fingers. Although i find myself playing rarely on fingers alone when i'm behind a drumset.
If i want to play i fast fills, i just play my wrists and ad in double strokes like RRLRL whit triplet feel to it or RLRLRRLLRL to make it seems faster rather than just burst out into pure 32th notes.

[jazzsnob]

Use both equally. It'll take hard work, but you need to practice them both a lot to get that dynamic versatility.

[JWM]

I don't know why people keep thinking that Mangini is all wrist. It is wrist and fingers, it's just that that the wrist produces the stroke and the fingers control the rebound of the stick. But it is done in a relaxed way...

[DrummerBen1]

i thinks the american grip is designed (or is) used so you can utilise both firnger and wrist movement.

using both fingers and wrist is useful in for different applications.

why dont you try working on just you wrist movement (german) to train you wrist power) then work on u fingers as well

Hey i think you're right about that.
Because French is all fingers... and German is all wrist... therefore American is in between and its a mix of wrist and fingers.

[Scatman]

I believe the fingers are used all the time
They are on your hand

[h3r3tic]

Hey i think you're right about that.
Because French is all fingers... and German is all wrist... therefore American is in between and its a mix of wrist and fingers.

In the frech position you can use fingers AND wrists. It´s like the american grip. The only diference is that when you´re playing on the french position, the palms of your hands are facing each other.

I like the German position because I use more wrists than fingers but when I have to use fingers for speed, I switch to the american. I´m not perfect at it but I´ll keep practsing it :P

Merry Xmass

[Mcot2]

Well I use a french grip almost on my right hand and an american grip on the left. Both matched of course.

With the right hand I will play french on the ride usually for a fast ride, and then use the elbow and sholder musles for accents, not a whole lot of wrist there. When I bring the right hand down for snare play I will twist it some for a more american grip to use wirst for accents.

The difference is because if im playing a fast ride pattern I use the swinging motion of the cymbol to help play faster, so Ill accent the ride with a strong sholder hit to ge it moving then play fingers in between.

The main point is that there is no one grip you should stick to. Experiment with wirst and fingers or both on all the different drums and then you can learn to switch your grip while playing depending on the situation.

[Scatman]

I still don't know what grip the fingers can move faster
Most drummers claim matched gives the fingers more freedom to move faster

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I still don't know what grip the fingers can move faster
Most drummers claim matched gives the fingers more freedom to move faster

Then the trad player's right hand would be faster than his left? Nobody would go for that.

[wy yung]

I don't know whether to use wrists or fingers.
You can go extremely fast with both.

For example:
Mike Mangini -wrists
Jotan Afanador, Art Verdi -fingers
Buddy Rich -both... wrist and fingers

My problem is that my right hand uses alot more wrist and my left hand uses alot more fingers and so I don't know whether to start just using my wrists or fingers.
I play American grip by the way.

I need some help.
Thanks.


I'm reminded of a quote by Neil Peart in an old MD interview. "If I have a choice between two good things, I'll take both."

[Tyrnox]

If you ask me, the idea movement is a mixture of finger and wrist control.

I play a wide variety of music, but when it comes down to band play and shows, my specialty is extreme metal. I used to blast and play my rudiments with alot of wrist, and little to no fingers. My blasts we're powerfull, and my hits loud. However, I was limited to some speeds, and after long practices I used to have pains in my left shoulder region, general articulation problems.

Since I play about 3 hours a day, and i'm wanting to make drumming my life, I started taking lessons with someone who would work with how my body moves, he trains athletes in the cirque du soleil, for all sorts of physical damaging, movement, rehabs, etc...

Anyway, after examining my technique, he recomended the use of fingers, and gave me excercises to get rid of my pain. It's been a month or so since i've put in fingers into my techniques, and my rudiments are incredibly fast, precise, and still loud ( since there is still alot of wrist movement natural adapted in my technique ), on top of all more controlled. I was afraid to use the fingers at first because I didn't want to sound like the guy from Behemoth, or just in general, someone who doesnt hit hard at all, if there's a technique i've come to despise, it's really the guys who scratch their drums and rely on triggers to do the rest.

So there you have it, for me its wrist and finger control.

[dea]

I have to agree with the last response. You want to use the wrist and fingers. Don't limit yourself to one or the other since it will only lock you into a box that becomes more difficult to climb out of as time goes on ( typical of humans to favor what we know ).

[zambizzi]

In my experience...which isn't much...if you're relaxed you're going to use both. I do a lot of Moeller practice when I first warm up...which is a good way to train yourself to use both your wrists and your fingers properly.

So, for me, after a lot of Moeller practice...if you're playing as relaxed as you should...you'll naturally want to use both.

The Moeller was part of my first formal drum lesson...I've made it a habit since day 1...and highly recommend it.

[h3r3tic]

In my experience...which isn't much...if you're relaxed you're going to use both. I do a lot of Moeller practice when I first warm up...which is a good way to train yourself to use both your wrists and your fingers properly.

So, for me, after a lot of Moeller practice...if you're playing as relaxed as you should...you'll naturally want to use both.

The Moeller was part of my first formal drum lesson...I've made it a habit since day 1...and highly recommend it.

Amen Bro! ;) and also the open/close =) both techniques rule!

[Scatman]

Most drummers I talk to claim they feel like fingers are faster using a matched grip
the fingers have more freedom to move than a cramped trad grip

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Most drummers I talk to claim they feel like fingers are faster using a matched grip
the fingers have more freedom to move than a cramped trad grip

I am all for matched grip, but against nonsense, so I am going to suggest you talk to drummers like Jack DeJohnette, Joe Morello, Sanchez, Steve Smith, whom I have rarely seen use matched, and whom I doubt would go for a "cramped" trad grip that meant loss of speed.

What amazes me is that this tired debate of speed in trad vs. matched can continue. In trad, your right hand is like matched. Don't you think drummers would be unhappy if their right OR left were faster than the other hand? DPS

[SEVNT7]

Please explain what you mean by cramped

[Scatman]

Drummers like Joe Morello, Steve Smith and Art Verdi started out using trad grip and the fingers are trained to move using trad grip
I said cramped because the fingers are curled around the stick and causes a cramped feeling when trying to move the fingers
In matched grip the fingers are free under the stick and can move easier

[drumskillz]

Wrist, fingers, and arms. All of them should be used in order to accomplish all levels of dynamics.

[SEVNT7]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your anaysis. If you hold the stick in a firm grip with the fingers curled all the time I agree. However, the misunderstanding about this grip is usually that it's just the wrist that move the stick and a little finger movement. When you watch Chapin, Smith, etc.. There hands and fingers move out and in with down and upstrokes. As Chapin demonstates his technique, you will notice during the tap portion of multiple stokes. His finger are thown out and lying over the stick in an elongated position. Clearly not cramped.Check out (Digbydoodle), Good demonsrations of Moeller finger taps. I do agree however that Art Verde looks cramped, but his technique is amazing. Later.....T

[Kenneth Nishimoto]

Personally, I despise finger technique. Leave it to the timpani players, says I~!

For playing fast, much simpler methods than finger technique include Moeller and the Rimroll. Finger control has much to much of a finicky fulcrum for me. Rat-tattta-tat~!

[mosher]

I agree
fingers are used mostly for softer playing

[h3r3tic]

I agree
fingers are used mostly for softer playing

Well I think that fingers aore good for fast tempos, because they are smaller group of muscles than the wrists muscles.

But it is possible to play soft with wrists too...

[Scatman]

Billy Cobham can use fingers very powerfully
I saw solos he played using just fingers more powerful than drummers using wrists

[Jeff Almeyda]

Personally, I despise finger technique. Leave it to the timpani players, says I~!

For playing fast, much simpler methods than finger technique include Moeller and the Rimroll. Finger control has much to much of a finicky fulcrum for me. Rat-tattta-tat~!

Rimroll? Are you kidding me? Are you tying to compare a gimmick like the "one-handed roll" to a legit musical technique like finger control? Comments like this are irresponsible and force me to think twice about the qualifications of the author. Next I'm gonna start hearing about heel-toe technique.

And Moeller is a legit technique but it cannot be used for longer unaccented rolls because of it's very nature. You can't play one height pasages with Moeller. Moeller is best applied in 2 height passages such as flam patterns and in accented patterns.

The best technique guys use a combination of wrist, arm, and fingers to play.

[rendezvous_drummer]

Don't limit yourself to just one technique. Instead, incorporate them all. I can go faster with using my fingers, but when the time comes for it, use your wrists. Nothing wrong with it.

[SEVNT7]

Don't limit yourself to just one technique. Instead, incorporate them all. I can go faster with using my fingers, but when the time comes for it, use your wrists. Nothing wrong with it.
I agree, Why limit yourself with a specifc technique. I like your idea. It's kind of like Bruce Lee's idea (Jeet Kundo)sp? Incorporating all styles into one and letting go of form restrictions. Moving how you need to when that move is nessesary. Reacting to the moment. I base most of my playing in the Moeller tradition, however I don't limit myself to that hand position(germanic). I freely use french & american grip positions as movement around the set and job at hand dictates. While not trying to think to much about exact postitions. An example being; I play most of my ride patterns on the ride cym. with a french grip. Utilizing the fingers more witch free's up my fingers,and alows me to play with a lighter feel. For a basic swing pattern(12a34a) I mostly use French. But, when I play a more Blues type straight shuffle (1a2a3a4a) I use Moeller. It is a very natural and flowing way to play it. Try to learn it all and apply to nessesity. Later....T

[Kenneth Nishimoto]

Rimroll? Are you kidding me? Are you tying to compare a gimmick like the "one-handed roll" to a legit musical technique like finger control? Comments like this are irresponsible and force me to think twice about the qualifications of the author. Next I'm gonna start hearing about heel-toe technique.

And Moeller is a legit technique but it cannot be used for longer unaccented rolls because of it's very nature. You can't play one height pasages with Moeller. Moeller is best applied in 2 height passages such as flam patterns and in accented patterns.

The best technique guys use a combination of wrist, arm, and fingers to play.

Oh my God, you're killin me here~! Have you even seen what Rabb can pull with the rimroll~?

i.e. http://youtube.com/watch?v=hw4vMV3EnRw

IMHO, a vastly underrated technique. Rabb can get clean 16th notes with the rimroll at 180+ bpm~Even on hihat~ The "push-pull/reverse finger control" buisness is a complete gimmick, but the rimroll is both simple, and you get results~!

[PsYcHoTiC.DrUmMeR]

You need to be able to develop muscle in the wrists and fingers...If you dont then you options will be very limited...There are excersises that you can do to develop these.

[Ozzy Biz]

Oh my God, you're killin me here~! Have you even seen what Rabb can pull with the rimroll~?

i.e. http://youtube.com/watch?v=hw4vMV3EnRw

IMHO, a vastly underrated technique. Rabb can get clean 16th notes with the rimroll at 180+ bpm~Even on hihat~ The "push-pull/reverse finger control" buisness is a complete gimmick, but the rimroll is both simple, and you get results~!


I think I'm with Jeff Almeyda here; to focus on 'tricks' like the one-handed roll instead of working on general stick control is essentially, well, stupid. To say that finger control "should be left to the timpanists" is ridiculous as it's your fingers that hold the stick. How can you expect to become competent behind a drum set without some sort of finger control? You can't.

Also, using Johnny Rabb as an example of how the one-handed roll can be applied to music is flawed; because he is truly one of the elite. Sure, he can do that, but he can also bust 1000+ single strokes in a minute anyway. Besides, do you really want to "get clean 16th notes with the rimroll at 180+ bpm" at the sacrifice of being able to control two sticks at the same time anywhere else on the kit?

Biz

[Jeff Almeyda]

Oh my God, you're killin me here~! Have you even seen what Rabb can pull with the rimroll~?

i.e. http://youtube.com/watch?v=hw4vMV3EnRw

IMHO, a vastly underrated technique. Rabb can get clean 16th notes with the rimroll at 180+ bpm~Even on hihat~ The "push-pull/reverse finger control" buisness is a complete gimmick, but the rimroll is both simple, and you get results~!

Yeah, Johnny's great. Funny guy, too. He''s got incredible finger technique though so I can't say that he is the best argument for not developing the fingers.

Here's the million-dollar question: Name me ONE other notable player who uses the rimroll regularly as a part of his musical vocabulary and not as a gimmick. I've seen clinicians like Mangini and Minneman use it and I know that some death metal guys use it in a "gravity blast" but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the hundreds of top guys who employ finger technique.

I used to be a "wrist only" guy too, until guys like Dom Famularo and Art Verdi showed me the light.

[Scatman]

It is not logical to say I only use wrist or I only use fingers
The wrist and fingers have to work together

[mosher]

Buddy Rich claimed everything comes from the wrist action

[schist]

For me, it depends on the speed.

160 - 200BPM = wrists
200 - 260BPM = wrists & fingers
260 - 280BPM = fingers

[johnhavart]

Schist,

with sixteenth notes ?

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

For me, it depends on the speed.

160 - 200BPM = wrists
200 - 260BPM = wrists & fingers
260 - 280BPM = fingers

Then you will never play a powerful single stroke roll fast enough to call it a roll. I encourage you to practice really fast in German grip, your wrists will get not only strong, but have speed! DPS

[Dr Drums]

I'm having the same problem.
My right hand tends to work with the fingers while my left hand is all wrist.
Several people\teachers said to me that i gotta make up my mind and make them equal, but i just can't see why..
in my opinion as long as the way u grip doesn't hurt u, hold your sticks however u like and whatever gets u to play best.

-a

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I'm having the same problem.
My right hand tends to work with the fingers while my left hand is all wrist.
Several people\teachers said to me that i gotta make up my mind and make them equal, but i just can't see why..
in my opinion as long as the way u grip doesn't hurt u, hold your sticks however u like and whatever gets u to play best.

-a

There is no reason to work on the two hands being equal. Unless, of course, you intend to play double or single stroke rolls and want them to sound even. In that case, you must study these techniques in detail. DPS

[schist]

Then you will never play a powerful single stroke roll fast enough to call it a roll. I encourage you to practice really fast in German grip, your wrists will get not only strong, but have speed! DPS

I fail to understand what you mean fully, DrPowerStroke.

Do you know for sure that I personally will never be able to play a single stroke roll fast enough for it to be a roll with this technique? Have you even seen me play? I think not.

Otherwise, what I should have said was that I use my wrists more at slower tempos, whereas I use fingers more at faster ones.

[schist]

Schist,

with sixteenth notes ?

Both 16ths and 8th notes.

[mosher]

I saw a part of that Rabb open hand rim roll playing those speeds totally relaxed

[Tutin]

I think you're usually best using mainly wrist on the kit and fingers a lot more on the pad. Eventually you use fingers a lot more on the kit without thinking and it helps a lot.

[dea]

Confusing power and volume? You can play lightly and create an incredibly powerful sound.

[komodo]

wow 280bpm 16ths,im extremely impressed to say the least. But anyways,its a good idea to train both wrists and fingers so you can use both in different situations and incorporate dynamics easier. Wrists can be used to create volume,but fingers can create softer sounds. For things like crescendos you could start with fingers and gradually alternate to wrists to get that volume (i think crescendo is right word :p)

[FloEy]

i use both german and french. The french uses absolutely no wrist!!! it is completely fingers and is really not to useful on the toms. The one thing I can say is that I feel more relaxed doing the french grip. The german grip incorporates both wrist and fingers. The german grip is also used best for the moeller technique. Your best bet is learning both because they both compliment each other in different ways.

[h3r3tic]

Absolutly! use BOTH!!

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

The french uses absolutely no wrist!!! it is completely fingers and is really not to useful on the toms.
Not true. French can be played using fingers exclusively, but you can play from the wrist as well!
The German grip incorporates both wrist and fingers. The German grip is also used best for the moeller technique.
Not really! In German, the stroke really comes from the wrist. The fingers are really mostly getting out of the way. Both German, French, and American grips can play the Moeller techniques.
Your best bet is learning both because they both compliment each other in different ways.
Bingo! Very true.

I learned these grips from Dom Famularo and know these grips very well. I am more than happy to share so keep asking questions!

Casper

[mosher]

The Moeller technique demands both wrist and finger action together using a whip type of motion

[dea]

I rarely play standard anymore. I don't feel cramped with matched grip either. When employing your fingers, you are actually gaining tremendous flexibility because you have three fingers to work with as opposed to one wrist. Each finger can be used independently or together with their brethren to create subtle accent level changes at any time. Also note, you are using less energy moving your fingers than you are using your wrists ( you are torquing ( force x distance ) due to the stick tip being some distance away ). This means less energy to accomplish the same dynamic change which then leads to more relaxed playing.

Practice this:

4 strikes.
first strike with fulcrum only ( fingers should dangle ).
second strike squeezing the middle finger only.
third strike squeeze ring finger only.
fourth strike squeeze pinky only.
Repeat forever.

You will begin to notice a tremendous increase in your ability to employ subtle dynamic changes with minimal movement of your wrists.

Don't take this wrong. There is a time and a place for your wrists. But don't ignore your fingers. They are an incredibly useful tool.