Need som advice choosing jazz drums.

[eirikhw]

*** UPDATE - SEE POST #23 ***


Hi,
I'll start my first entry on this forum with a question concerning drums suited for jazz playing.
At this time, I have a Pearl ELX drumkit (22" kick), which I really like alot, especially for rock/pop playing. I think I've gotten a very nice sound out of it, with proper heads and tuning.

Then, as I have come more into jazz drumming I would really like to have a jazz kit as well, with a smaller bass, and overall different sound. Bop-sizes.
Now, as I really like the Pearl kit, I do not want to sell it. That means I don't have a enormous amount of money to spend on a new jazz kit. It means it won't be a good ol' legendary Gretsch Round badge.

So, I've made a couple of affordable suggestions that I think looks interesting.
I'd be glad if anyone here could make a comment on any of these. And perhaps some more suggestions..? Other kits that I should consider?

Gretsch Catalina Club Jazz
http://media.zzounds.com/media/brand,zzounds/fit,325by400/quality,85/CC_J484_SS-43f6c6f547f880df9a1d063dc2dd40e6.jpg
The perfect sizes. And with hardware included (here in Norway)

Premier Artist Heritage
http://www.master-music.it/images/Premier/ArtistHeritage.jpg
More expensive. Though, it's birch! I guess this sounds great, as it looks.
And - comes with a 10" tom.

I have also looked at Tama, Pearl, Ludwig and so on.. But haven't found any decent setups. I guess I could special order a Pearl Masters, but that would be too pricey, and probably not that jazzy anyway... or?

[Drifter in the Dark]

Greetings! and welcome to the forum! I think that either kit would be a fine choice for jazz. I played the Catalina and was impressed with its sound, and I know that other drummers here on Drummerworld have had good results with it too. I haven't played many Premier sets, but they have a reputation for quality. Let us know how it turns out!

[harryconway]

Maybe think adding/purchasing just enough Pearl drums (with same finish) to expand your existing kit. If you already own 12" and 14" toms, just add a kick and your good to go. And welcome to Drummerworld.

[KCDrummer]

I would recommend the Catalina before the Premiers, but I must warn you--while the Catalinas do have a great sound for the $$$, the hardware absolutely blows, so it's a bit of a trade-off. A buddy of mine just got a set of Tama Starclassics that he loves, maybe out of your price range. I think Yamaha makes some good jazz kits, and you could look into a Sonor Jungle kit (don't know much about those).

The other option you have is to build your own. Very cost effective and the ultimate in customization!

[Drummer Karl]

I would also go for the Gretsch...it is made very traditional, also the bearing edges. would be a perfect Jazz kit for the money I think.

but er, what shell depth has them? (premier and Gretsch)
wouldn`t go for deep toms like 10x9" .......I like 10x8" or even more shallow....

Karl

[jazzgregg]

Welcome to the forum. I'd go with the Gretsches. They aren't Gretschs top of the line, but the ones I played sounded pretty good tuned up nicely, if you can deal with that wrap (which I could never do=).

A Pearl Masters Custom, special ordered would be astronomically expensive in comparison. If you're thinking about that, why not go for a higher quality Gretsch?

G

[Cymbalrider]

I heard a lot about both. I guess really just what kind of wood do you want. Birch--go with the Premier Artist P. Mahogany-Gretsch
What's up with these people and these bop kits anyway?! :)

[Pete Stoltman]

I heard a lot about both. I guess really just what kind of wood do you want. Birch--go with the Premier Artist P. Mahogany-Gretsch
What's up with these people and these bop kits anyway?! :)

The whole " bop kit" thing is another marketing device to get guys to buy those sets if they're playing jazz. An awful lot of classic jazz (including bop) was recorded on drums that were 14x22, 9x13, and 16x16. I would suggest that you concern yourself more with the sound of the drums and how well they fit your playing style than buying particular sizes because a company advertising guy came up with the idea of calling them jazz or bop sets. By the way I've heard some of the older guys (yes there are some guys older than me) say that the only reason they went to smaller sized bass drums was that they were easier to fit in the back seat of a cab going from gig to gig.

[Sesh]

Hey,

If that's a birch premier kit be warned - I bought the club heritage version and the snare drum is absolutely awful.

This probably won't apply to you, but what I've done is order a big custom kit that covers all my needs - 22" and 18" kicks and 8,10,12,14,16 toms. That way I can set up a little jazz 18,10,14 set up, or a big rock 22,12,14,16. It's a bit pricey (althouh you can keep the costs down by buying the shells for a custom maker and the hardware from a supplier and bolting it on yourself), but it's a thought.

The gretsch looks great - I love the reknowned maple and from what I've heard about the catalina birch/maple's they're amazin for the price.

Martin

[eirikhw]

Thank you all, so far...

At this time, I think I'm leaning towards the Premier kit.
First, I suddenly realised that with my current Pearl kit I have all the hardware I need. No need to fill the house doubled-up with hw... And I like the Pearl hw.

And of course, paying a little extra for birch shells will pay off.. :) As I find the snare as the main drum on a drumkit, I'm a little sceptic to the snare that comes with the cheaper Catalina. It might be wrong to believe this when I honestly haven't heard the drum (it all comes down to heads/tuning), but in this case I use the material and pricerange as some sort of reference.

The only downside of my choice is that I'll have to pay more for cases, since the Premier comes with an extra drum. But with such priced drums I really think I have to get hardcases.. As a kind of insurance.

[eirikhw]

If that's a birch premier kit be warned - I bought the club heritage version and the snare drum is absolutely awful.

Hm, really? I expected the snare of this kit to be quite good, compared to the pricerange..
Weren't you just a little unlucky with heads?

Wait, you said it was the club version? Do you then mean the one in silver finish, with the very shallow bass drum? As this (http://www.premier-percussion.com/catalogue.asp?id=301) one?

Anyway, I have a Pearl brass snare that I will be keeping as an option.



The gretsch looks great - I love the reknowned maple and from what I've heard about the catalina birch/maple's they're amazin for the price.



Well, the Gretsch kit that I pictured above isn't neither (maple or birch).
It's phillipine mahogany, which I believe is a cheaper material..

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Phillipine Mahogany is a budget wood, Birch is not. For that reason I'd go with the Premiers (contrary to JazzGregg's advice, don't hurt me Gregg). Both are pretty nice kits mind. Unfortunately I've also heard some contradictory stories about Gretsch's quality control recently, so another score for the Premier. Premier have great quality control.

[jazzgregg]

Phillipine Mahogany is a budget wood, Birch is not. For that reason I'd go with the Premiers (contrary to JazzGregg's advice, don't hurt me Gregg). Both are pretty nice kits mind. Unfortunately I've also heard some contradictory stories about Gretsch's quality control recently, so another score for the Premier. Premier have great quality control.
Oh, that's IT, Duncan! Just kidding, although I know you're just saying Premier because they're English=)

As for the quality control thing, that is long gone. A while back, yeah, Gretsch made some shoddy stuff while under different ownership but since it's been back in the Gretsch family hands, all has been cool. These new Gretsch kits are really, really great for the bread. Budget wood or no, they sound pretty good.

G

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Gregg, I believe you, because it's you. I've just read a few contradictory things lately. Take, for instance, Rob's (fourstringdrums) new Gretsch Catalina Birch. It's lovely in every way, it sounds great and apparently the quality is good too. Unfortunately I've also read that another Catalina Birch wasn't so great, I can't remember whose. Though if you say it's not a problem any more, I'll believe you, because it's you.

I am a big fan of Premier though, not just because they're English, but because they are just quality drums. My personal favourites are something like Sonor -> Yamaha -> Premier then probably Gretsch, Tama, Pearl although that always changes. Ludwig I don't particularly like any more, they haven't done anything 'new' and their drums have QC problems, and don't get me started on PDP. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I've never heard a single bad thing about a Premier, but that's probably because nobody actually owns one ;-)

[eirikhw]

One comment on that Premier tom holder.
I know it has really good positioning possibilities, but my concern is that it might be a bit big if I want to place only the 12" tom on the bass drum (as a trad. bop setup). Could it come in the way of a ride cymbal?

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

That's a bit of a non-issue really. You can just put the ball holder to point downwards and problem solved. so in reality, it wouldn't be any better or worse than any other system (except maybe the Yamaha system, which is awesome IMO).

[jazzgregg]

I am a big fan of Premier though, not just because they're English, but because they are just quality drums. My personal favourites are something like Sonor -> Yamaha -> Premier then probably Gretsch, Tama, Pearl although that always changes. Ludwig I don't particularly like any more, they haven't done anything 'new' and their drums have QC problems, and don't get me started on PDP. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I've never heard a single bad thing about a Premier, but that's probably because nobody actually owns one ;-)

Quite right, who DOES own a Premier besides Rod Morgenstien, our own Loge on here and Steve White (love that guy)?

Now, since the Gretsch sets in question are the low end, yeah, there could be some quality issues, but who can say they haven't seen things go awry on a Pearl or what have you? Certainly not me. Why I reccomend the Gretsch (and would consider buying on of those to go with my regular Gretsches) is because I've heard and played a couple of these Catalina sets and as a few (including myself) have said, they sound GREAT.

Now, MFB mentioned Sonor, another good choice. Their entry level sets are super. Sonor can't make bad drums so you may want to look into them as well.

G

[Sesh]

Hm, really? I expected the snare of this kit to be quite good, compared to the pricerange..
Weren't you just a little unlucky with heads?

Wait, you said it was the club version? Do you then mean the one in silver finish, with the very shallow bass drum? As this (http://www.premier-percussion.com/catalogue.asp?id=301) one?

Anyway, I have a Pearl brass snare that I will be keeping as an option.



Well, the Gretsch kit that I pictured above isn't neither (maple or birch).
It's phillipine mahogany, which I believe is a cheaper material..

The snare, yeah the one I got was the silver one, so the snare was a 13x5. However, whilst it's not the same drum it is the same wood and the same series and the same shell harware (which has been a problem all to itself - the strainer is terrible). I changed both heads the second I bought it - I have a lot of experience tuning drums and this one just doesn't sound good.It may be birch, but it's not good birch. Anyhow, the rest of the kit is great, the little club one actually tunes very well for jazz - I prefer a shallow bass drum as it's easier to get a tone in my opinion.

Apologies about the gretsch - I glanced accross and assume it was the catalina birch - I didn't know they did a mahogany version. And someone further up was right - gretsch harware is bad.

As I said, I went with a premier, and everything except the snare is great - I just wanted to warn you that in my case the snare is the problem.

Good luck either way, they're nice kits - it's unbeliveable how much choice there is nowadays, even 10 years ago you couldn't get anything as nice as either of those for the money.

Martin

[dirtyharry]

I have the Premier Artist Birch Heritage JAZZ with a 20x14 inch bass drum and it sounds real good.
I bought recently the Premier Artist Birch Heritage CLUB KIT 20x8 bass drum and I find the snare 13x5 sounds great, much better than the 14x5 that came with the 20x14 kit.

They have improved the strainer design on the new Heritages, they also have changed the look of the Silver Sparkle finish (it has a slight yellow-vintage cast now wich looks more plastic, less metallic to me), I think the older Silver Sparkle was much cooler.

These kits were made in England a few years ago but now the Artists are made in Taiwan (the box in my 20x14 JAZZ says "made in England", the box on my new CLUB KIT says "made in Taiwan"). This detail sucks. Hardware on the new ones is thicker, but over all quality construction seems slightly lower, though still good.

I have the same doubt as you between the Premier Artist Birch Heritage BEBOP vs the Gretsch CATALINA CLUB Mahogany... I have read bad reviews on the Gretsch Catalina Club snare and hardware, plus it is cheap mahogany. Ok, it has the Gretsch brand on it.

I think I would buy the Premier BIRCH Bebop (you can have it in WHITE MARINE PEARL too if you want), sell the unwanted tom and improve the Premier snare with a Gretsch Renown Maple (great price and die cast hoop). The best of both worlds.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

You didnt mention the sizes of your current drums other than the bass drum, but would it not be possible to order a smaller bass drum of the same finish as you have and use the other drums and hardware??

[dirtyharry]

You didnt mention the sizes of your current drums other than the bass drum, but would it not be possible to order a smaller bass drum of the same finish as you have and use the other drums and hardware??

You are right, problem is they have changed the look of their new silver sparkles finish, from the four years ago made in England to the new made in Taiwan. That's why I would consider a new kit in a different finish (probably white marine pearl now)

Premier Artist Heritage Jazz: 20x14, 10x8, 12x8, 14x14, 14x5 snare
Premier Artist Heritage Club kit: 20x8, 10x6, 13x13, 13x5 snare

Premier Artist Heritage Bebop: 18x14, 10x8, 12x8, 14x14, 14x5 snare

[mofle]

Why don't you trty out a Yamaha hip-gig? I have seen some of them in ''Finn'' and ''musikkpraksis.no'', and they are not to bad. They fit into to bags that you get with the kit. If you have to get one of the two mentioned, I would get the Gretsch!

Good to see a fellow Norwegian! =)


-Mofle

[eirikhw]

Well, I forgot about this thread for a while.. But in the meantime, I have bought the Premiers!
Here are some pictures :D

[eirikhw]

Btw, Another strange thing, the toms came with ISO suspention mounts..!
Not usual for the heritage series...

[vadrum]

great choice on the drums, victor lewis had a beautiful sounding set of premiers that he played on.....

the suspension mounts are the thing these days. dont know why. i dont think that it really helps the sound of the drums that much, but everyone gets their panties in a bunch if you put a hole in a drum, or attach metal directly to shell. (geez, come on....listen to the sound that tony got out of his gretsch, or roy or dawson w/ their ludwigs, and it was all standard setups that have now become taboo). 2 things i hate about hi priced drums these days, bass drum shells often too thin to attach tom mounts thus you need racks or you need to mount drums off the stand, and the refusal to attach metal tom mounts to the toms themselves, or having to hang your floor tom (if its by choice, fine).

anyway, enough of my rant.

the pearl drums you mentioned would have been fine too, clarence penn endorses pearl and uses the pearl master's custom drums for pop, funk, fusion, and straight ahead.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Those are great looking. Very nice choice. As much as I like my sparkle and some of the pearl effects, I am really beginning to like the natural wood patterns. Only wish I had had that choice when I picked mine. But maybe next time.

[dirtyharry]

Is this the 18x14 bebop Artist Birch Heritage, right? Looks beautiful. What about the bass drum and the snare? Sounds good?

[eirikhw]

Is this the 18x14 bebop Artist Birch Heritage, right?

Yes, thats correct.
10x08
12x08
14x14
18x14
14x5,5

Overall sound is terrific, lots of resonance from the toms, warm snare, and the bass drum sounds deep (even though I still haven't replaced its stock head..)

[OldHippy]

How do you like the hi hats? Which ones are they? I have Bosphorus Masters for ride and crash, and want to get some new hi hats now.

[rendezvous_drummer]

I've never heard a Premier artist birch before but it looks nice. If I ever buy a jazz kit, i'm most likely goin to purchase an old rogers kit or something vintage.

[dirtyharry]

Yes, thats correct.
10x08
12x08
14x14
18x14
14x5,5

Overall sound is terrific, lots of resonance from the toms, warm snare, and the bass drum sounds deep (even though I still haven't replaced its stock head..)


Since we were comparing this kit with a Gretsch Catalina Club, I was thinking only about Silver Sparkle or White Marine Pearl finishes. Now I see that Dark Walnut I might go for this finish (I don´t trust too much Premier on their ever changing wraps on this series). The kit looks like a Gretsch Custom dark walnut finish, except no Die Cast.
I also like the bass drum rings are the same color than the rest of the shell, Premier has not updated pictures on their site. Also I think I would prefer No ISO mount.

Congratulations!

[eirikhw]

How do you like the hi hats? Which ones are they? I have Bosphorus Masters for ride and crash, and want to get some new hi hats now.

I have a set of 13" Masters hats. Love them! Nice "chick" when playing with the foot, and good definition with sticks... Kind of medium dark sound.

The other Bos cymbals are 18 masters crash and a 20" thin antique.

[somedrummer]

Oh man that is an excellent kit. The finish is gorgeous! I'm a big fan of finishes where wood grain shows through, and that one looks to be superb. All those Bosphorous cymbals... Just about the perfect jazz kit. Well done.

[dirtyharry]

Here are some pictures of that Premier Aritst Birch Heritage in White Marine Pearl I found somewhere. Cool, but not as good looking as that dark walnut, I think.

[dirtyharry]

Now here is a serious competitor. Gretsch Catalina Club Mahogany vs Premier Artist Birch Heritage is one thing but... what about this Gretsch Renown Maple Bebop? I' ve seen it for about 1300 euros, it's slightly more expensive (Catalina Club is about 800, Premier Artist is about 1000), but still a GREAT price. Silver sealer, die cast hoops... I think wood is made in the Usa, but assembled in Taiwan. Only big drawback for me is that bass drum is 18x16 (deeeeeeep), instead of the "true bebop" 18x14.
It's a shame Gretsch won´t offer a BIRCH bebop kit, there's a gap they could fill there.

[vadrum]

i think, bottom line, the best sounding set of drums period are gretsch drums. it was explained to me that they have a patent on a spray, secret formula, that they use to coat the inside of the drum. this coat causes the drum to resonate more. and there was a huge issue about 10 - 15 years ago w/ the EPA because the chambers they were using were not up to specs and were emitting nastys into the air. so, gretsch ended up getting backed up w/ orders because they had to shut down a couple of those chambers to modify them.

but having said that, i also think that it really doesnt matter what you play on or how they sound. if you can play the music will still sound good.

theres a phineas newbourn (sp?) album out there w/ philly joe on it and the drums he was playing sounded like a**. but he was still killin'

anyway, best of luck w/ those premiers..i know they sound fantastic.

[dirtyharry]

If you want a bebop 18x14 bass drum from Gretsch you only have two options:

-the cheap mahogany Catalina Club
-the high end-high price maple kits.

I wish they offered a mid class bebop kit, something like "Renown Birch", "Catalina Birch Bebop" or whatever they wanted to call it. That's were a kit like the Premier finds its place.