Playing jazz well on the drumset

[DrummerBen1]

How do you know when and what to play when it comes to playing jazz on the kit?

For example, like when is it appropriate for fills? when is it appropriate to hit the crash cymbols? when is it suitable to hit the bass drum? etc..

I've been listening to alot of jazz cds (of course), but I still need some suggestions.

Thanks.
Ben.

[mickey]

okay i'll do my best.

Some major tips for playing jazz:

Do not accent beat 1. ever.

Never forget dynamics.

Do not hit the bass drum on every quarter note, and usually play it very softly, ocassionaly harder for accentuating something.

In jazz sticking patterns can really come into play too. For instance, you're standard ride cymbal jazz pattern is:

1 2 & 3 4&

which is in 4/4 time. (bare with me)

But, if you were to play in 4/4 but play cymbal phrases of 3, then you would be playing the same thing over and over but it would sound different every time.
Follow?
(this wasnt my idea....joe morello...)

so you're counting 1...2...3...4...

buy playing on the ride cymbal the pattern of: 1 &. 2 & 3 1 & 2 & 3

make sense? make sure to keep the hi hat on 2 and 4

so you'd get

bold = counting in 4
italics = counting in 3

1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a
1 e &a 2 e & a 3 e & a 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 1 e & a 2 e & a
------x----x----x----x----x----------x----------x----x----x----x----x----------x----x---------
-----------------x---------------------x----------------------x----------------------x-------------

Make sense to anyone but me?

[capnrusty]

Just listen to loads of CDs. All the answers can be found in recorded music.

[mickey]

okay i'll do my best.

Some major tips for playing jazz:

Do not accent beat 1. ever.

Never forget dynamics.

Do not hit the bass drum on every quarter note, and usually play it very softly, ocassionaly harder for accentuating something.

In jazz sticking patterns can really come into play too. For instance, you're standard ride cymbal jazz pattern is:

1 2 & 3 4 &

which is in 4/4 time. (bare with me)

But, if you were to play in 4/4 but play cymbal phrases of 3, then you would be playing the same thing over and over but it would sound different every time.
Follow?
(this wasnt my idea....joe morello...)

so you're counting 1...2...3...4...

buy playing on the ride cymbal the pattern of: 1 &. 2 & 3 1 & 2 & 3

make sense? make sure to keep the hi hat on 2 and 4

so you'd get

bold = counting in 4
italics = counting in 3

1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a
1 e &a 2 e & a 3 e & a 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 1 e & a 2 e & a
x----x----x----x----x----------x----------x----x----x----x----x----------x----x---------
x---------------------x----------------------x----------------------x-------------

Make sense to anyone but me?

[jazzgregg]

Do a search for beginner Jazz stuff here, there are quite a few threads. From some of the book suggestions (and listening to CDs) things like form and melody will become clearer and help you determine what guides your comping/fills.

G

[Beat Spector]

a very, very very good book to start with jazz is
Mel Bay's "Drumcookbook for jazz".
takes you from zero to a REALLY nice above average level...
do it with metronome and speed up if you feel confortably -

it's build up logically and clear to understand.

and yea: listen to a lot of CD's.

[jordanz]

I disagree with the poster above. There is nothing wrong with accenting 1 occasionally. However, Jazz tends to emphasize 2/4 over 1/3.

Also, I'm finding out that most of the working Jazzers feather the BD on 1,2,3,4. Joe Farnsworth told me that everyone he knows does it. As he says, "it should be felt but not heard".

[bromasi]

I disagree with the poster above. There is nothing wrong with accenting 1 occasionally. However, Jazz tends to emphasize 2/4 over 1/3.

Also, I'm finding out that most of the working Jazzers feather the BD on 1,2,3,4. Joe Farnsworth told me that everyone he knows does it. As he says, "it should be felt but not heard".

a great drummer once said(Shelly Manne)you can't have 2&4, without 1&3 so all the beats are important just don't land on 1 every measure it has a tendency to box you end. good answers from all

[jazzsnob]

I also agree that playing on the 1 is okay, but the problem is that it's such a habit for people to SLAM the 1 and do it often. It can be a great effect sometimes though.

[Mike Newland]

How do you know when and what to play when it comes to playing jazz on the kit?

For example, like when is it appropriate for fills? when is it appropriate to hit the crash cymbols? when is it suitable to hit the bass drum? etc..

I've been listening to alot of jazz cds (of course), but I still need some suggestions.

Thanks.
Ben.

The reason why jazz is so confusing compared with rock is twofold.

Because the basic jazz rhythm only requires one hand and one foot to perform it. Hi hat and ride cymbal. Rock requires both hands and one foot. The spare foot just keeps the hi hat shut. Now you can add bits with the spare foot for rock by lifting the hi hat. Little shushes very popular in funk. But this is obviously a limited affair.

Now jazz has one hand and one foot spare for embellishments. That means a huge range of possible interplays between bass drum toms cymbals and snare. The variety is so great that there are no rules really. Which is why what jazz players do is so confusingly varied and changing all the time. You just have to accept it and play what comes naturally remembering that you are embellishing not laying down the basic groove.

The second reason why jazz is so confusing is that the basic rhythm is not a steady beat like rock. It 'skips' along stopping and starting.

Put a non steady basic rhythm together with an infinity of embellishments and no wonder people ask 'what do I do'!

The way to approach it (I know the way even if I don't do it all that well) is to think in terms of laying down the basic rhythm first. Keep that in your head. Then listen to records for what is being added by the spare hand and foot. For example, accenting the 'a' in spangalang with snare or bass drum is used as the most 'standard' and basic addition to the straight groove.

Think in jazz 'basic rhythm plus stream of embellishment'. Unlike basic rock where you think 'basic rhythm plus occasional fills' (not too many of you will be thrown out).

Finally, remember that what is being played in jazz is a stream of triplets with some missing in the basic rhythm. You can fill in or accent those played in the basic rhythm (or move them to another instrument however you like. No wonder jazz is difficult.

The great players have developed a brilliant sense of what to put where which they did not acquire in five minutes. Or even five years.

[low-tech]

the whole disembodied kick and snare hits is hard. i always turn swing into repeating patterns.

[Class A Drummer]

ive played rock most of my life, and now i can pretty much jam along with anything (rock), so i eventually got good at doing fills also. But that was just recently in the past 8-12 months. I started playing jazz about 6 months ago, and because i had the abilty to do fills while playing rock, i figured i could do the same when playing jazz, except make it "swing." I played around with it for a while. I had trouble when i first started also. Another thing i did, i took a jazz camp. That helped alot.

Edit- 1700

[finnhiggins]

ive played rock most of my life, and now i can pretty much jam along with anything (rock), so i eventually got good at doing fills also. But that was just recently in the past 8-12 months. I started playing jazz about 6 months ago, and because i had the abilty to do fills while playing rock, i figured i could do the same when playing jazz, except make it "swing." I played around with it for a while. I had trouble when i first started also. Another thing i did, i took a jazz camp. That helped alot.

Edit- 1700

Class A, if you're not going to listen to advice can you at least refrain from dispensing it? Cheers.

The big thing that most rock players transitioning into jazz miss is that it's not about fills or grooves. Jazz is about time playing with improvisation layered over the top.

So your right hand plays time on the ride, your left foot plays backbeats on the hi-hat. The ride is the most important part here, and to be honest if you want to work on playing good jazz then you need to spend a LONG time first just getting your ride cymbal sound, feel and placement sounding appropriate at different tempos.

After that you need to start developing some co-ordination, there are many great texts for this. One of the first was Jim Chapin's "Advanced techniques for the modern drummer", but I tend to favour Ted Reed's "Syncopation" book used as a reading text with various interpretations to develop the rhythmic material into parts across multiple voices.

But the big thing is just the simplest part: the ride cymbal. Get yourself a copy of "Kind of Blue" by Miles Davis and just try to play the ride cymbal parts correctly. Forget everything else for now, if you're starting out. And definitely forget all the Dave Weckl Band / Tribal Tech / Anything With Dennis Chambers On It type stuff out there full of fusion-funk linear grooves, cymbal crashes and double bass pedal stuff. That material has very little resemblance to jazz, per se, it's effectively a different style of drumming and shouldn't be confused with what is considered jazz time.

[jonescrusher]

Edit- 1700

What is this?

I'd love to hear some of your jazzier material Class A, maybe that's where your strengths lie. Post some up.


Drummerben - i'd definitely re-emphasise Finnhiggins' point that you need to spend a long time just on the ride pattern. I've recently been working on jazz, and the vast majority of practice time is spent soley on the ride cymbal and HH 2&4s at maybe three differing tempos. There is little point looking at the left hand or BD before the right hand is down.

[millerdakiller]

there's no official way to play jazz, but the stereotypical jazz beat is 1 2 a3 4 a1

THen put ghost notes, fills, and everything else where you see fit.

Jazz is all about interpretaion, so don't follow a pattern. Do what sounds right to you.

[finnhiggins]

Jazz is all about interpretaion, so don't follow a pattern. Do what sounds right to you.

On the other hand, you're sort of right. On the other, you're not. You're right, jazz is about interpretation. But as with any other style of music there are certain "rules of the road". When you get in a car there's no law that says you have to go one particular place, but if you drive the wrong side of the road at 6x the speed limit you'll probably encounter problems.

So yeah, do what sounds right to do. But you also need to work on what you hear as "sounding right" by listening to, dissecting and UNDERSTANDING a lot of jazz - what has been done and why. You can't just go "Oh, I'll just play my idea of what jazz sounds like with the occasional one of my favourite Mike Portnoy fills interspersed..." without looking like you're just incompetent at playing jazz.

[Class A Drummer]

What is this?

I'd love to hear some of your jazzier material Class A, maybe that's where your strengths lie. Post some up.



it means my 1700th post.

And if i have time later in the week ill do it.

[franklinj]

Oh God /\

Id recommend getting The Art of Bop by John Riley. Really nice book.

THE most difficult thing for me playing jazz is getting the swing ride down. Ive been playing and excelling in linear playing for almost a year, and this is pretty much the exact opposite of linear playing.

[RudimentalDrummer]

I'm also beginning to get into Jazz...guess have to play the 1 2 +3 4+ on the Ride like (till I'm playing it in the Pocket) & the Hi-Hat 2 & 4. Of course with snare & bass variation together and fills..like syncopated types....Practice seems ok for me...but Jazz is about Feel (my Instructor told me) and if I were to play Jazz with a group - as a drummer I will really need to communicate that jazz kind of feel (through my playing) to the other experience band members - they will know, if I 've lost that feel.

The problem is when I play along with a song, I always get loss somewhere, especially when the ride is fast... (cause I had never listen to Jazz Songs as I've honestly never knew to to appreciate it during those days back then - and even if I did see those bands play at the club - I don't know the title of the songs they are playing)....I'm learning to love these kind of Music now.

My Instructor says - Jazzs is quite different from all my previous drum practices like... when I do my other practice eg. Bosso Nova, Rock, Funk, Samba etc I read the notes and just play & follow the Rythmn...but to learn Jazz, there's a vast different - It's not that straight forward.....For me as a beginner into Jazz..I start off reading & playing basic Jazz Notes while I play (Ensuring my Ride sounds good, & Hi-hat is done properly)- But it's realy all about Feel..Feel...Feel ...... I must have that Feel in me....and thus I think I need to listen to plenty of Jazz Songs now besides practice....He told me - you play the Ride & Hi-Hat till you don't need to count them...get the feel in you

Jazz is not easy. Playing very Fast on the Ride (maintaining a Jazz Feel) require a different Techniques too.....OMG it's tough...and I don't even know how to use the Brush now (I think he won't go into that for now). Also I've seen him (my Instructor) do some Jazz Ride Patterns(I think he mix & match them)..it's not the usual 1 2 +3 4+ kinda stuffs -but sound good still with the Jazz Feel there.

I hope I will be able to play simple Contemporary Jazz for a start and move on from then...and hopefully I can really excel from then on.

So this week lesson - He wants to play along with Music....

[Drad-dog]

Form and melody...form and melody. That's the ticket, DrummerBen1. Listen to the chord changes closely. Hear the bass line. Listen enough and you'll start to hear the song go by- when it goes to the bridge, when it comes around again to the top. Imagine that a listener could tell where you are in the song just by listening to you, the drums. Don't over play. When the band is getting ready to go to the bridge, play the snare or bass on the "and" of four, or even do a roll ending on the first beat of the next change (like Blakey). What you play is important, but so is when you play it. You are not going to impress anybody with patterns and polyrhythmic flash. Learn how to accent thoes "up" beats and play them when the tune moves into another section.

Avoid being repetitive, unless you are building a phrase that ultimately leads the band into the next section of the tune or you are developing a rhythmic rapport with another instrumentalist. As for melody, YOU can play melodically too. Listen to what the soloist is doing. If he/she plays a phrase that you can answer with a phrase of your own, do it. If someone calls, answer. Later on, you can build your independance with the Ted Reed book, or the Riley book etc. and contribute more interesting ideas, including phrasing over bar lines and playing less obvious and therefore more innovative stuff.

The good jazz musicians LISTEN better than most other musicians. Turn your ears onto the other dudes in the group. If there is no group, imagine that there is. Play along with your metronome as if it were your bass player. Remember, you're not playing fills, or time, or licks, or patterns, or whatever. You're playing MUSIC. Also, if nothing to play occurs to you, don't play anything (besides the ride pattern). Wait till you here it in your head first. Then play it.

Jazz is deep. Take the plunge!

[jazzgregg]

There has been some very good advice here, so before things get really contradictory (more than they are) allow me to sum up what I think you need to know. (yeah, yeah, who am I, I know).

mickey- Let they guy get a book, man, that makes no sense=)

capnrusty-right on, true.

jazzgregg - utter crap. (No, no, it's good advice=)

Beat Spector-yeah

jordanz- no, no feathering. Farnsworh saying that is like Ray Brown saying 'walk'. Not wrong, but not everyone does it by any means.

bromasi-true, very true what Shelly said. Bob Moses too.

jazzsnob- also true.

Mike Newland- true about keeping the beat, but I wouldn't really consider comping an 'embellishment' in that way. Rather a part of the groove, but I'm picky.

low-tech- no speed comment?=) Just kidding, man. But uh, what did you say? Swing into repeating patterns? Not sure I understand.

Class A Drummer- No one is listening to you.

finnhiggins- my man. I think my man copied and pasted an old post of mine, with the cymbal and 'Kind of Blue' thing. =)

jonescrusher- right it's all about the cymbal. Keep it up!

millerdakiller- yeah, not so much, see Finn's post following.

finhiggins- precisely. As usual too, well placed and completely correct Portnoy dig. 10 Jazz points. Everyone who THINKS the can play Jazz, take notes on what Finn said there (you too Jared Mr-you-can-learn-Jazz-in-20-minutes-bullcrap)

franklinj-took 17 posts to get someone to say Riley's art of Bop Drumming (and it was Dyrda) I second the book, it's a great one.

RudimentalDrummer - Congrats on getting into Jazz! You are right DO play 1234 on the ride FIRST! No 'skip notes', not this or that. QUARTER NOTES. If you're listening to Kind of Blue already, you know that though. When you're trying to play uptempo stuff, don;t try to play faster than you can just yet. You need to keep things in control so take it down a bit and work on the quarters first, then add the OCCASIONAL skip note so you can focus on it. You are also correct on feel, it's got swing. And last, you're right about the turbo ride technique, you need to really work on that to get it happening, else you'll end up copping out an mushing the stick into the cymbal like Jeff Hamilton=). You gotta get definition in that pattern, it takes time. Also, you can practice on a real thin cymbal, like a top hi hat alone or even a 13" splash or so, if that cymbal washes out, keep working=)


Drad- correct as always. The music comes first with Jazz.

Well that concludes my unneccesary commentary, happy Jazzing all.

G

[low-tech]

i was saying i turn swing into weird repeating beats similiar to rock beats, also do fills like 4/4 rock. ive been listening to more jazz lately and practicing it.


the whole placement of my kick and snare hits are so locked into the rock format, very hard to break loose.

[handito]

I got interested in Jazz like 9 months ago or something like that. Anyway I was at that time, and still is, a member of the Virtual Drummer School, so i chose to study with Peter Erskine at VDS for sometime, and that man is a GREAT teacher. He takes you through almost every aspect of Jazz, from getting the two basic jazz ride patterns down to soloing like Elvin Jones. so becoming a member of VDS and studying with Erskine was the way I started to learn about Jazz.

[handito]

Form and melody...form and melody. That's the ticket, DrummerBen1. Listen to the chord changes closely. Hear the bass line. Listen enough and you'll start to hear the song go by- when it goes to the bridge, when it comes around again to the top. Imagine that a listener could tell where you are in the song just by listening to you, the drums. Don't over play. When the band is getting ready to go to the bridge, play the snare or bass on the "and" of four, or even do a roll ending on the first beat of the next change (like Blakey). What you play is important, but so is when you play it. You are not going to impress anybody with patterns and polyrhythmic flash. Learn how to accent thoes "up" beats and play them when the tune moves into another section.

Avoid being repetitive, unless you are building a phrase that ultimately leads the band into the next section of the tune or you are developing a rhythmic rapport with another instrumentalist. As for melody, YOU can play melodically too. Listen to what the soloist is doing. If he/she plays a phrase that you can answer with a phrase of your own, do it. If someone calls, answer. Later on, you can build your independance with the Ted Reed book, or the Riley book etc. and contribute more interesting ideas, including phrasing over bar lines and playing less obvious and therefore more innovative stuff.

The good jazz musicians LISTEN better than most other musicians. Turn your ears onto the other dudes in the group. If there is no group, imagine that there is. Play along with your metronome as if it were your bass player. Remember, you're not playing fills, or time, or licks, or patterns, or whatever. You're playing MUSIC. Also, if nothing to play occurs to you, don't play anything (besides the ride pattern). Wait till you here it in your head first. Then play it.

Jazz is deep. Take the plunge!

I know what you mean by saying that you are playing Music. But it should be emphasised that, at least imo, you should ALWAYS play music, not only in Jazz.
Quote Flea: There is nothing worse for any musician than to play with a drummer who can only play flashy and fast, but can't play slow and just play for the song.

[S.C.]

If you really want to learn to play Jazz, start with the old styles.
It gives you a clear idea about the feel. New Orleans (Dixieland, not second line) and swing (Big Bands).
What you will notice listenng to these old records - The prototype jazz beat isn't the ride cymbal.
It's quarter noes on the snare!
1,2,3,4 with the right, adding 2 and 4 with the left. Softly. Good idea to start learning to use the brushes early on.

Add bass on 1 and 3 (two beat) or 1,2,3,4 (four-beat), hi hat 2 and 4.
Practice this in various tempos.

Then - only then- move the ride hand to the ride cymbal. Quarter notes!
Change the left from regular snare to cross-rim-click on 2 and 4. Bass drum should be very soft by now.
This should enable to you to play along with most jazz tunes - and swing!

The ding-ga-ding beat is hard to get smooth and even. Get a good jazz drummer as teacher for that. You'll have a hard time learning it by yourself.
Polyrhythms - later, much later. Listen to Kind of Blue - very sparse comping with the left, and it works.
It's about playing swinging time. Swing is a kind of groove, a light one.
The ride should be prominent, the hi hat coming second. All embellishment/comping should be veerry soft at first.

Have fun swinging!

[jonescrusher]

Quote Flea: There is nothing worse for any musician than to play with a drummer who can only play flashy and fast, but can't play slow and just play for the song.

lol, is that from Chad Smiths instructional video? I love that , it was the first i ever bought. He's so hyperactive in that, superb! Great advise, of course.

[jazzgregg]

Low-Tech- Gotcha. Ted Reed's 'Syncopation' will change that.

S.C.- Man, I would like to say the same thing, but do you know how hard it is to get a Jazz noob to listen to Basie, nevermind Bix or Bechet! In theory you are abosolutely right, start from the beginning, I couldn't (and don;t) agree more. However, what I've had to adapt that to in teaching is 'start from as far back as you can'=)
G

[theduke86]

If I have something to add that's different from everyone else, I'd have to say the main part of swing is your ride cymbal. Look up some ride cymbal grips, spend a LOT of time just playing ride cymbal trying to get a consistent tone, and try to play along to some records- Kind Of Blue is awesome. There are few other ones. I like to play quarter notes along with that old Basie stuff too.
Now, about the skip beat, do a lot of listening first before you start playing it. It's -something that really can't be notated- to me it's not a triplet feel, it's not a dotted eighth/sixteenth feel, I haven't tried to exactly notate it. In Erskine's book, he notated it in a series of fives... I gotta say that went right over my head, but Peter knows the score so there might be something to it... I digress.
Spend a lot of time listening to jazz and getting the quarter note consistent on the ride. Then maybe check out books like Syncopation, Bop Drumming.... I find getting a great teacher who is a jazz musician (not a fusion guy who dabbles in jazz) is super important as well.

[jazzgregg]

But the big thing is just the simplest part: the ride cymbal. Get yourself a copy of "Kind of Blue" by Miles Davis and just try to play the ride cymbal parts correctly. Forget everything else for now, if you're starting out.

Finn already said that. Also, did the orginal poster do a search yet? I must've written that about the cymbal 4000 times on this board=)

G

[Dr. Jones]

Everyone that has posted so far has given you great advice concerning beginning Jazz playing, but I thought I'd throw in some stuff for you to do once you've got the basics covered.

When I first started lessons with my current drum teacher about 6 years ago I thought I had a pretty good understanding of jazz...and boy was I WRONG. The first thing he did was rework my bass drum technique...I had been playing mostly rock and fusion, and my technique was more aimed at those types of genres. I'm not really sure about your background, so let's just assume you play heel up and sort of smash the beater into the head. (If you don't do this let me know, just covering all my bases) This type of sound works great with a heavily muffled bass drum, but with jazz, you usually want a wide open tone with little or no muffling. Smashing the beater into the head with a very resonant bass drum usually sounds pretty bad, so I would recommend changing your technique. You can still have your heel up (or down, depending on your preference) but let the beater rebound off the head and strive for a nice, even tone. I find it eaiser to do this heel down, but it's all preference. I would practice feathering the bass drum (as mentioned above) with this technique while playing the ride and hi-hat patterns.
You also want to remember that with Jazz, the bass drum should be much quiter than with rock or heavier styles.

The next step requires that you get something called "The fake book" or "The real book"
These are large books with tons and tons of jazz standards written out (just the lead sheet)

What jazz records to you have? Let's say you have Kind of blue and want to learn "So What" The music for this will definetly be in the book, so what you should do first is grab the music, sit down and listen to the track while looking at the lead sheet. Pay attention to the melody, and follow along on the sheet. Once you've got a good idea of how the form works (form being the progression of chord changes, in this case AABA), it's time to move to the drums.

Start by playing twice through the form (just playing the basic cymbal pattern as well as hi-hat on 2 and 4 and feathering the bass drum) Once you come around to the top of the form, start playing the MELODY on the drums. In other words, try to emulate what the sax and trumpet (as well as the bass with so what, since it's playing part of the melody) are playing ON THE DRUMS, while keeping the hi-hat going. Try to really get it as close to the sound as you can, i.e. high notes on the snare, middle notes on the toms, low notes on the bass. The key hear is to be melodic and smooth. If you're playing this and someone says "hey, that's so what!" you know you're doing it right. Do this twice as well. Alternate 2 times playing time and 2 times playing the melody.

So, once you can do that fludily you'll have a great feel for the song and the form, which brings us to our next step.
Jazz has plenty of drumsolos over forms, so the next step after alternating 2 times with time, 2 times with the melody a total of 4 times, take a chorus (1 time through the form) of just soloing. I recommend doing this with the record as its easy to lose your place if you're not really experienced playing over forms. The keys here are to try and hear the melody in your head as your soloing, and to outline the form in the solo. (for example in So What the form is AABA, so you should have some kind fill or groove that signifies the coming of the chord change to the B section) After one chorus, play another chorus of just time, and switch back and forth until you feel reaaaallly comfortable soloing over that specific form.

Alrighty! I think I might have gone a little overboard there for a beginner, but I figured some other people might read it and find something useful. This is just the tip of the Iceberg, so if anyone has other questions feel free to ask.

[sshu]

... Look up some ride cymbal grips...

Are there are good pointers on this one? I am listening to some Erskine stuff, and he really flies on the riding ... I've never really noticed anyone mentioning a specific ride cymbal grip or technique though ...

Steve

[Dr. Jones]

Are there are good pointers on this one? I am listening to some Erskine stuff, and he really flies on the riding ... I've never really noticed anyone mentioning a specific ride cymbal grip or technique though ...

Steve

Usually Jazz players use the french grip for the ride cymbal....i.e. thumb up. When playing fast jazz patterns, you use one arm motion for every three strokes, the moeller essentially.

[sshu]

Usually Jazz players use the french grip for the ride cymbal....i.e. thumb up. When playing fast jazz patterns, you use one arm motion for every three strokes, the moeller essentially.

Thanks, man! Moeller was my first thought, but I wasn't sure if there was other "magic" that people found useful specifically related to the ride. I've also wondered a bit if I am hearing four to five consecutive ride strikes in double time on some of his stuff. On a different note, but related to speed on the ride, I find that I can ride faster if I am ghosting notes on the snare in a linear pattern. But this applies more to fusion than jazz contexts. On top of that, the ghosting is not always desired.

Steve

[Drummerboy3940]

I cant wait to here Class A's jazz playing. This should be great.

Next he will be saying Buddy Rich's timing is off!!!!!!!!!!!

[DrummerBen1]

Where can I get these books?

"Syncopation" and "The Art of Bop Drumming" and "Advanced Techniques for Modern Drummer"
I'm sure they'll help me since I am a beginner.

Yes, I've been working on pulling back on the bass drum ;)
And making sure my high-hat hits on 2 and 4 and I can do the moeller on the ride well now as well.
I'm making sure I dont overplay, and that I answer to the question from the trumpets, bass, saxaphone, etc..
I'm making sure I have dynamics in my playing as well and that the drums have to give off the music instead of noise lol.
And yea.... I can only understand somewhat of everything else with what you're all saying LOL because you're all speaking the same "jazz-language" that I'm unfamiliar with lol

Anyway, thanks ALOT everyone.
Jazz is very complicated stuff and I just needed some help on how I can improve better when I play on the kit.
Keep the advice coming!
I really appreciate it.

[sshu]

Where can I get these books?

... "The Art of Bop Drumming" ...
I'm sure they'll help me since I am a beginner.



FWIW - I got my John Riley Bop (and Beyond Bop [which is a little more advanced]) books from Amazon ... http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/002-9756130-2524861?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=john+riley

You can get a preview of some of the pages there ... I like the historical perspective that the Riley books also provide. I have a number of drum books that just have a bunch of notation. I find the Riley books help one to better understand some of the history, where influences came from, etc. Gives one a better appreciation for where the innovations came from, what was cutting edge at the time, etc.

Edit added: oops. I realize that you cannot see any pages for John Riley's The Art of Bop Drumming book online. These do not appear to be loaded for the book in question although I have found sample pages of many other drum books there.

Steve

[Drad-dog]

Where can I get these books?

"Syncopation" and "The Art of Bop Drumming"


These are both distributed/published by Alfred Music Publishers. Any store that carries a big enough array of print music will do business directly with Alfred, and could therefore special order you either or both if they aren't in stock already. And any self respecting drum shop should have Syncopation at all times.

[DrummerBen1]

These are both distributed/published by Alfred Music Publishers. Any store that carries a big enough array of print music will do business directly with Alfred, and could therefore special order you either or both if they aren't in stock already. And any self respecting drum shop should have Syncopation at all times.

lol theres no jazz drum books in my music store. pretty sad. I asked why and they said its because there's like not enough drummers in town.
all they have is rock books. lol it suckss

[DrummerBen1]

Which books do you recommend that I get?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=br_ss_hs/104-6874136-4476706?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=john+riley

I plan on getting the "The Art of Bop Drumming" and "Beyond Bop Drumming" and how about that "Syncopation" book.... the only thing is... I can't find it on this page! lol Where is it??

[Dr. Jones]

Gettin the Beyond Bop Drumming book IS a good idea, but if you're just starting out playing Jazz it's going to be very, very hard. It immediately starts off with 3 voice comping techniques (using hi-hat, bass drum and snare interchangebly) while holding down the jazz ride pattern. By all means buy the book, but I'd start with something a little more simple. My drum teacher even has trouble playing some of the stuff in that book! (He was sight reading at the time though)

[sshu]

I agree with Dr. Jones on the Beyond Bop Drumming. If you are just starting out, that book has a higher probability of being discouraging. I think that it is premised on assumption that the reader has gotten through The Art of Bop Drumming book (the first book). The Art of Bop Drumming (although I do not claim to be a jazz expert), tends to focus on core jazz principles. The Beyond Bop Drumming book focuses (in my opinion) on some innovations that happened post 50s (e.g., using the hi-hat foot as a 4th comping element, broken-time playing beyond the standard spang-a-lang ride pattern, playing jazz patterns that have either a 3 feel in 4 time or 4 feel in 3 time).

FWIW - I personally did not start out learning jazz via The Art of Bop Drumming book, but it looks like a good book to start with. I actually learned my first jazz playing from a book on jazz independence that focused on 8 bar to 16 bar comping ("grooving" for lack of a better word) solos. These solos focused on keeping time with the high-hat and ride cymbal and then using the bass drum and snare as independence voices to "solo".

Steve

[low-tech]

the only book i got is mel bays studio/jazz drum cookbook. ive owned it nearly 10 years. its cool, i just got to read it it and learn more

[DrummerBen1]

Where can I find this syncopation book as well?
And what does this book primarily focus on??

Thanks!

[ReX]

I've probably missed it, but has anyone mentioned the importance triplets in the swing jazz pattern? "1 2 let 3 4 let". Get your head wrapped around that, and the swinging bit comes together pretty easily.


Anyway, the Riley book referred to above.... Yeah!

[The.GuessWho]

Everyone that has posted so far has given you great advice concerning beginning Jazz playing, but I thought I'd throw in some stuff for you to do once you've got the basics covered.

When I first started lessons with my current drum teacher about 6 years ago I thought I had a pretty good understanding of jazz...and boy was I WRONG. The first thing he did was rework my bass drum technique...I had been playing mostly rock and fusion, and my technique was more aimed at those types of genres. I'm not really sure about your background, so let's just assume you play heel up and sort of smash the beater into the head. (If you don't do this let me know, just covering all my bases) This type of sound works great with a heavily muffled bass drum, but with jazz, you usually want a wide open tone with little or no muffling. Smashing the beater into the head with a very resonant bass drum usually sounds pretty bad, so I would recommend changing your technique. You can still have your heel up (or down, depending on your preference) but let the beater rebound off the head and strive for a nice, even tone. I find it eaiser to do this heel down, but it's all preference. I would practice feathering the bass drum (as mentioned above) with this technique while playing the ride and hi-hat patterns.
You also want to remember that with Jazz, the bass drum should be much quiter than with rock or heavier styles.

The next step requires that you get something called "The fake book" or "The real book"
These are large books with tons and tons of jazz standards written out (just the lead sheet)

What jazz records to you have? Let's say you have Kind of blue and want to learn "So What" The music for this will definetly be in the book, so what you should do first is grab the music, sit down and listen to the track while looking at the lead sheet. Pay attention to the melody, and follow along on the sheet. Once you've got a good idea of how the form works (form being the progression of chord changes, in this case AABA), it's time to move to the drums.

Start by playing twice through the form (just playing the basic cymbal pattern as well as hi-hat on 2 and 4 and feathering the bass drum) Once you come around to the top of the form, start playing the MELODY on the drums. In other words, try to emulate what the sax and trumpet (as well as the bass with so what, since it's playing part of the melody) are playing ON THE DRUMS, while keeping the hi-hat going. Try to really get it as close to the sound as you can, i.e. high notes on the snare, middle notes on the toms, low notes on the bass. The key hear is to be melodic and smooth. If you're playing this and someone says "hey, that's so what!" you know you're doing it right. Do this twice as well. Alternate 2 times playing time and 2 times playing the melody.

So, once you can do that fludily you'll have a great feel for the song and the form, which brings us to our next step.
Jazz has plenty of drumsolos over forms, so the next step after alternating 2 times with time, 2 times with the melody a total of 4 times, take a chorus (1 time through the form) of just soloing. I recommend doing this with the record as its easy to lose your place if you're not really experienced playing over forms. The keys here are to try and hear the melody in your head as your soloing, and to outline the form in the solo. (for example in So What the form is AABA, so you should have some kind fill or groove that signifies the coming of the chord change to the B section) After one chorus, play another chorus of just time, and switch back and forth until you feel reaaaallly comfortable soloing over that specific form.

Alrighty! I think I might have gone a little overboard there for a beginner, but I figured some other people might read it and find something useful. This is just the tip of the Iceberg, so if anyone has other questions feel free to ask.

Great post!! Couldn't agree more. Playing jazz is about the music and nothing else!

Concerning books: Yes, the Riley books are great, but books can only take you so far (especially with something like "jazz"-drumming). In the end you'll have to find something you want to do and start working on that. This "thing" can be inspired by some phrases/exercises you saw in a book, or (even better!) some things played by Max/Klook/Elvin/Tony/..., but you'll have to try and give it your touch.

[DrummerBen1]

...some things played by Max/Klook/Elvin/Tony/..., but you'll have to try and give it your touch.

Well, where are these books by Max/Klook/Elvin/Tony... etc.??

Thanks alot!

[The.GuessWho]

Books??

I wasn't talking about books, I was talking about recordings. ^^

[DrummerBen1]

LOL whoops.
but yea i have been listening to lots of recordings by those musicians.

Thanks

[dea]

Jazz is definitely much different. I really liked the layering description. It really fits well as a description where the ride and hi-hat are the primary time keepers, while the bass drum and snare are used as embellishment.

A good three step process for mastering this is as follows:
1. Get 2 or 3 good jazz books. Some have been listed above which I have all of them.
2. Get your 2 & 4 hi-hat down while adding the ride swing. Play with accenting on different strikes of the ride.
3. And here is the trick to getting that wonderful almost non-repeating - yet musical - bass and snare into the mix.
3a. Start by just riding 1 2 3 4 while varying the snare and bass drum.
3b. Then add the swing beat while varying your snare and bass drum.

For the rock drummer, step 3a really helps because your doing something familiar to rock drumming with your right hand. If you kind of lean on your right hand for support, and just drop the snare, and bass drum in as randomly as you can, you will begin to strengthen up. Then mix in the ride swing in slowly and inconsistantly.

Here is the key, I repeat... Here is the key. Don't worry about missing beats, etc. as long as your time is straight. If you take it slow, you will feel whether your hand can nail the snare at a particular point. If it doesn't feel like your going to nail it, forget it. Try again the next bar or so. Remember, a good jazz tune can be without a lot of snare and bass. In fact, leave the snare out for a couple of bars mixing in the bass instead. You will find that this is harder to do then you might think if you come from a rock background.

Enjoy.

[RudimentalDrummer]

My dear bros of DrummerWorld.

Last week I started on a New Book (Beyond The BackBeat - Berklee Press) Rock/Funk to Jazz Latin. I started out having to do the Basic Rock/Funk Beat from this book before moving on to Morph it in all future lesson.

SO I did a Rock/Funk beat as written in the book - with Ride on 1 +a2 +a3 +a4 +a and all Open Hi-Hats on the +. (16th notes) The Bass Drum & Snare(with Accent & Ghosting) I've learn during Basic those times. and you know what.

I was feeling something is wrong...then my Instructor says "Hey ! - You're Swinging - this is not Jazz...Now.www play it straight"....

Cause I'be been Playing/Practicing alot of swing...when I got to the 1 +a2 +a3 +a4 +a and all Open Hi-Hats on the +. - I was swinging....hahahaha ! - can't Imagine......me playing wrongly or should I say "Hey man ! I've still got the Feel of Swing In Me"

Psssh.... But it actually sound so much better with the Swing - just not right thing to do.

Cheers !

[dea]

I have Chapin's book, as well as the Riley's books. My favorite though is,

Hal Leonard, "Creative Timekeeping for the Contemporary Jazz Drummer".

When I bought this book, the others went on the shelf. You have to - at least - check this one out.

[RudimentalDrummer]

Hal Leonard, "Creative Timekeeping for the Contemporary Jazz Drummer".

When I bought this book, the others went on the shelf. You have to - at least - check this one out.

Ok I go check it out...I saw the picture cover of the book is a 4pc Drum kit.

[biscut]

I look at it this way (tell me if I'm wrong).

jazz is deep because;

the technique is as difficult as the most difficult of rudimental and concert technique.

it's about perfection (as is rudimentary).

the aesthetics and styles are varied yet particular (jazz is 100 years old).

The styles corespond to certain eras and you either needed to have lived in that era
or study it pretty closely (immersion in the setting).

the energy needs to be more focused.

the dynamics are more varied.

mistakes stand out more because of the quietness and dynamics (you dont have guitars and bass doing stright fours to help keep time).

The other musicians tend to be better trained.

I sort of think you have to do it for a living to spend that much time praticing it.

[aydee]

I look at it this way (tell me if I'm wrong).

jazz is deep because;

the technique is as difficult as the most difficult of rudimental and concert technique.

it's about perfection (as is rudimentary).

the aesthetics and styles are varied yet particular (jazz is 100 years old).

The styles corespond to certain eras and you either needed to have lived in that era
or study it pretty closely (immersion in the setting).

the energy needs to be more focused.

the dynamics are more varied.

mistakes stand out more because of the quietness and dynamics (you dont have guitars and bass doing stright fours to help keep time).

The other musicians tend to be better trained.

I sort of think you have to do it for a living to spend that much time praticing it.

You are right, butI would'nt necassarily describe it the way you have.

IMO, Jazz is fundamentally and quite simply, improvisational music. And to really express yourself, and improvise on your instrument, you need a certain amount of technique and facility to be creative spontaneously.

Jazz is also about taking a musical idea, and then breaking it down, extending it, inverting it, twisting it, and messing with it within the parameter of the idea.

It is also important in Jazz to know its history and music as a vocabulary for how it has been done/ developed over the years......

[Erik Lund]

If you have to ask...


: )

[Vinnysimmo]

Im primerly a rock plaer and have recently been dipping my toe into the massive world of jazz. Ive been learning to play the basic jazz pattern and i canmake it sound OK at medium tempos. Im having real troble, however when trying to make it "swing" at lower or higher tempos. I mean im doing it, but it sound disjointed and not smooth at all. Any help would be appreciated.

[aydee]

Im primerly a rock plaer and have recently been dipping my toe into the massive world of jazz. Ive been learning to play the basic jazz pattern and i canmake it sound OK at medium tempos. Im having real troble, however when trying to make it "swing" at lower or higher tempos. I mean im doing it, but it sound disjointed and not smooth at all. Any help would be appreciated.

Step 1 would be to listen to as much jazz as you can.

[Vic_Rattledeth]

I know i'm probably gonna get bashed for this but....is it alright to occasionally throw double bass into jazz playing? I know it's not traditional but i've made some really cool things mixing Jazz hand paterns and fills with double bass.

[broken_symlink]

if i remember correctly, there is a terry bozzio video on the vic firth site where he does double bass jazz, but its been at least a year since i've seen the video. i also think billy ward does some, but i'm not completely sure. the way i've been learning is through syncopation. my drum teacher said there are like 15 different ways to apply syncopation to the drum set. he has shown me 5.

[a1DrummerT]

okay i'll do my best.

Some major tips for playing jazz:

Do not accent beat 1. ever.

Never forget dynamics.

Do not hit the bass drum on every quarter note, and usually play it very softly, ocassionaly harder for accentuating something.

In jazz sticking patterns can really come into play too. For instance, you're standard ride cymbal jazz pattern is:

1 2 & 3 4 &

which is in 4/4 time. (bare with me)

But, if you were to play in 4/4 but play cymbal phrases of 3, then you would be playing the same thing over and over but it would sound different every time.
Follow?
(this wasnt my idea....joe morello...)

so you're counting 1...2...3...4...

buy playing on the ride cymbal the pattern of: 1 &. 2 & 3 1 & 2 & 3

make sense? make sure to keep the hi hat on 2 and 4

so you'd get

bold = counting in 4
italics = counting in 3

1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a
1 e &a 2 e & a 3 e & a 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 1 e & a 2 e & a
x----x----x----x----x----------x----------x----x----x----x----x----------x----x---------
x---------------------x----------------------x----------------------x-------------

Make sense to anyone but me?


haha yea...ur playing 3 in 4...the same rhythm but different accents.



|X--x-xx--X---|x-xx--X--x-x|x--X--x-xx--|
-1tt2tt3tt4tt-1tt2tt3tt4tt-1tt2tt3tt4tt-

compared to the reg. 4/4 jazz pattern

|X--x-xx--x-x|X--x-xx--x-x|X--x-xx--x-x|

i just capped the begginning of each repeat so its easy to see

[jazzin']

To the guys wanting to put double bass into jazz. I would suggest never, ever, ever doing it but also not to forget that music is just music. Jazz is a label for a certain sound and really you can put what you want, where you want. It might sound absolutely tragic and pitiful but hey, you have to take risks.

Something to think about though: when you refer to your jazz licks sounding good with double bass thrown into them you may be playing a more fusion oriented sound. Check out some fusion, it might be more up your alley. They use a lot of double bass in that music.

My thought though is jazz + double bass (drums) = train wreck of mass proportions!

[aboylikedave]

My thought though is jazz + double bass (drums) = train wreck of mass proportions!
I've seen it doneand it worked fantasically. Used literally just once in a solo (once in a whole set). If the role of a jazz solo is to entertain, excite, show somethig different and out of the ordinary to stimulate the audience over and above the mundane,the usual and the unchallenging, the tired, the ordinary etc, et, then I would say GO FOR IT!!!! But remember use SPARINGLY!!

[ULTIMATEDRUMMER]

I started out with kicks on notes the band played then worked my way up and it will come naturally to u. You'll get the feel just play with alot of jazz.

[Erik Lund]

"if i remember correctly, there is a terry bozzio video on the vic firth site where he does double bass jazz"


I have heard a total of zero notes of jazz enjoyment from Mr. Bozzio.



As far as double bass drumming in jazz - yeah guys did it in the past - Louie, Sonny, etc - but those drums didn't sound like how your double bass drums probably sound. Not really meaning you can't do it - but you need to really know what's going on in the piece. If you can musically (MUSICALLY) put some double bass drumming in there - why the hell not?

But I've never heard anyone put it into a small combo and actually sound good/tasteful/appropriate/anything-worth-listening-to...

[Kroy]

Find a teacher who knows how to apply the Moeller System to the jazz ride pattern properly.

Check out Steve Smith's ride technique for a good example.

Some players pick this up naturally but most need to be shown.

If the teacher knows his stuff it won't be something you'll learn in five minutes.

If you're in the London, UK area, Bob Armstrong is your best bet, teacher-wise.
http://www.bobarmstrong.co.uk/

If you're in the Bristol, UK area you can PM me - I teach it and I learn't it from Bob Armstrong.


The Moeller system applied to the ride pattern(s) will develop the right feel and accentations. It goes from simple (1/4) to complex - Elvin Jones, Tony Williams etc. It's hard to explain it on paper. I can only say that the Moeller System is the best thing that ever happened to my drumming.

I haven't seen any of these ride Moeller methods on the web, by the way. Derrick Pope and Jojo Mayer have some great stuff and I'm working on some of this myself. But this ride stuff is really special - really special!

[Michael G]

Find a teacher who knows how to apply the Moeller System to the jazz ride pattern properly.

Check out Steve Smith's ride technique for a good example.

Some players pick this up naturally but most need to be shown.

If the teacher knows his stuff it won't be something you'll learn in five minutes.

If you're in the London, UK area, Bob Armstrong is your best bet, teacher-wise.
http://www.bobarmstrong.co.uk/

If you're in the Bristol, UK area you can PM me - I teach it and I learn't it from Bob Armstrong.

Please do explain, as I see it, the two are entirely different things.

[Kroy]

Do you mean the Moeller System and The Jazz Ride pattern are two different things?

[Michael G]

Do you mean the Moeller System and The Jazz Ride pattern are two different things?

That was worded badly.

I meant, do explain how to apply the Moeller system to the jazz ride pattern, I don't see how both could go hand in hand.

[Steamer]

Tony and Elvin's ride technique comes from the hand and wrist and fingers last. Tony in the hour long clinic available online talks about this in length. Neither used a finger bouncing or multiple finger bouncing technique and Tony was VERY clear on this at least in his regard to how he got his sound out from Miles till when this clinic was taped. He goes on to say his hands control the intent and projection of the sound on the cymbals and drums and makes a point about not getting his sound from a bouncing finger style approach. When I took a master class with Bob Moses way back around 1981 he re-taught me my entire ride cymbal playing approach that I still use today which involved controlling the stick sound with the hand and wrist on the ride cymbal in particular in a very fluid relaxed manner falling under the same method as what Tony was saying in the clinic about the hand and wrist approach. Bob explained it as not about playing through or below the cymbal with the stick as he described by bouncing the stick with your fingers and such but using the hand and wrist to pull the sound out of the cymbal in a relaxed manner. He demonsrated this on a very washy old A ride and i'll never forget the nice woody stick click he pulled out of this cymbal using this method. Sure the fingers play into it but it is a very relaxing loose approach of the wrist and hand that looks similar from the outside to the Moeller method but is different especially in regard to the involvement of the fingers in achieving the desired sound and end result.

[Kroy]

That was worded badly.

I meant, do explain how to apply the Moeller system to the jazz ride pattern, I don't see how both could go hand in hand.
The Moeller system is a technique and the jazz ride pattern is a pattern. In drumming we apply techniques to patterns all the time, which is how they can go hand in hand.

To describe it in detail is very difficult on paper - it really has to be illustrated either by video or demonstration, but I'll try to give you an idea:

It's a combination of wrist, fingers and shoulder. The shoulder works so that the elbow swings in and out as the fingers open and close (not neccessarily providing propulsion) with the wrist's movement to give the correct accentation. The swinging elbow helps the time feel, whilst the fingers/wrists provide the accentation. The timing of the elbow in/out swing in relation to the rest of the arm/wrist/fingers engine is crucial and is also different above and below around130BPM. The technique also changes above 230BPM.

Perhaps what's confusing you is that the Moeller system info that's available on the web and in Jojo Mayer's video is not (in my experience) the whole story. My time with Bob Armstrong exposed me to aspects of the Moeller system that I haven't seen anywhere on the web. Some very practical stuff.

You really need to work with a teacher if you want to get to the bottom of this. It's well worth it!

[Kroy]

Tony and Elvin's ride technique comes from the hand and wrist and fingers last. Tony in the hour long clinic available online talks about this in length. Neither used a finger bouncing or multiple finger bouncing technique and Tony was VERY clear on this at least in his regard to how he got his sound out from Miles till when this clinic was taped. He goes on to say his hands control the intent and projection of the sound on the cymbals and drums and makes a point about not getting his sound from a bouncing finger style approach. When I took a master class with Bob Moses way back around 1981 he re-taught me my entire ride cymbal playing approach that I still use today which involved controlling the stick sound with the hand and wrist on the ride cymbal in particular in a very fluid relaxed manner falling under the same method as what Tony was saying in the clinic about the hand and wrist approach. Bob explained it as not about playing through or below the cymbal with the stick as he described by bouncing the stick with your fingers and such but using the hand and wrist to pull the sound out of the cymbal in a relaxed manner. He demonsrated this on a very washy old A ride and i'll never forget the nice woody stick click he pulled out of this cymbal using this method. Sure the fingers play into it but it is a very relaxing loose approach of the wrist and hand that looks similar from the outside to the Moeller method but is different especially in regard to the involvement of the fingers in achieving the desired sound and end result.
Can you please provide a link for the Tony Williams clinic you mentioned that's available online?

[Steamer]

Can you please provide a link for the Tony Williams clinic you mentioned that's available online?

Yes. Here you go:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1981490425585781179&hl=en

I'll also add when I studied old style Swiss Basel snare drumming in my early years I was taught that all sound that came out of the drum came from the wrist and hand with no finger involvement at all. From double piano to double forte in a split second in a very relaxed manner coming from the hand and wrist. Watching Tony warm up on doubles you can see how he pulls the sound out of the snare with his hands and wrist in a similar manner. Later in the question and answer section he finally talks in detail about this approach to the cymbals and drums.

[Kroy]

Yes. Here you go:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1981490425585781179&hl=en

I'll also add when I studied old style Swiss Basel snare drumming in my early years I was taught that all sound that came out of the drum came from the wrist and hand with no finger involvement at all. From double piano to double forte in a split second in a very relaxed manner coming from the hand and wrist. Watching Tony warm up on doubles you can see how he pulls the sound out of the snare with his hands and wrist in a similar manner. Later in the question and answer section he finally talks in detail about this approach to the cymbals and drums.
Yeah, I also learnt with a couple of very wrist oriented teachers a few years ago, and the wrist is still the starting point for me with my students. I know what Tony Williams means when he talks about inexperienced players who just use two fingers and rely on the bounce, too. I come across quite a few young players in that situation - particularly when they've only had lessons in schools. It seems that in the UK you can get a job as a drum teacher in a school with very little knowledge. Shame.

Tony talks about not 'relying' on bounce. There's a difference between 'relying' on and 'being in control of.' Jojo Mayer makes this point in the 'Rebound' chapter on his DVD.

SmoothJazz,
On Jojo Mayer's DVD, the chapter in the Moeller section titled 'Pull Out Accent' touches on how the Moeller can be applied to jazz ride (shuffle on the DVD). It's not exactly the same as I learnt because the way I learnt the wrist actually turns inwards, so that the palm faces upwards when executing the upstroke (my first Moeller teacher called this the alternative upstroke).

[Erik Lund]

My teacher "that-turned-it-all-around-for-me" Robert Kaufman, taught me to actually do a kind of opposite-Moeller. Rather than pull in with the elbow, to actually go out with the elbow, helping the touch on the ride. Even at the fastest tempos, with the basic ride pattern, my elbow is moving out, "giving way" for the stick to come down not-so-harsh, and maybe, like the people who think they are "jazzier" (hate that word) when they play traditional grip - it just feels good with my arm moving like that when I'm playing.

I just hopped to the pad and tried the moeller on the 2's & 4's and it feels so awkward and uncomfortable to me now...

[Kroy]

My teacher "that-turned-it-all-around-for-me" Robert Kaufman, taught me to actually do a kind of opposite-Moeller. Rather than pull in with the elbow, to actually go out with the elbow, helping the touch on the ride. Even at the fastest tempos, with the basic ride pattern, my elbow is moving out, "giving way" for the stick to come down not-so-harsh, and maybe, like the people who think they are "jazzier" (hate that word) when they play traditional grip - it just feels good with my arm moving like that when I'm playing.

I just hopped to the pad and tried the moeller on the 2's & 4's and it feels so awkward and uncomfortable to me now...
Not sure I follow how this is the 'opposite to Moeller?' If the elbow doesn't move out, how can it move in? The Moeller is in and out, not just in. In is impossible without out, surely?

This is how it is for me:

Below 130 BPM the elbow moves out on 2 + 4 and in on 1 + 3.
Above 130 BPM it does the opposite - out on 1 + 3 and in on 2 + 4

Is that the same for you?

[aydee]

Ride that cymbal, cowboy!

The Electrics, Copenhagen Jazzhouse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdhjxGsrM-g&feature=related

[stasz]

Ride that cymbal, cowboy!

The Electrics, Copenhagen Jazzhouse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdhjxGsrM-g&feature=related

What a beautiful sound.. like the sight of a newborn baby, or a beautiful sunset. I wonder what they said to each other before they stepped up on stage. "Stravinsky's got nothing on us!!!" "You guys know the changes, right?" "Any kind of structure went out the window a long time ago."

[paramac]

I have found that playing Jazz well(or any style) is for one thing relative to who your playing with and their experience levels. One may sound great with one group and not in another. There are various reasons for this. I also have found that it has been like unraveling a big long mystery that takes years of dedication and discipline and perseverance, staying the course and not giving up. Also being realistic about ones own goals and what needs to be worked on. Lots of listening to the greats along with playing with others as much as possible and preferably with people better/more experienced. Finding the best teachers possible and also for drummers possibly learning piano or some other chordal instrument to learn ans absorb harmony and melody forms etc. Also going to see live Jazz as often as you can and sitting in whenever you can. I have found that there is a lot of wrong information out there for playing Jazz. One has to be careful not to go down the wrong path. I hate to say wrong in music but maybe better to say there are a lot of misconceptions out there. For instance the ride pattern for Jazz that a lot of folks say is Ding...... Ding Da Ding....... Ding Da Ding etc where in especially the beginning, 1/4 notes on the cymbals and getting a real nice dancing 1/4 note feel at medium tempos is a simple thing but no easy to master. If the Ding Dan Ding doesn't have or isn't rooted in a strong 1/4 note feel it won't come together. Then there are the two feels and Bossas and brushes Sambas and then Afro Cuban rhythms and African Rhythms. Tall order! Those books like Syncopation, John Rileys book that a lot of folks including myself have worked out of can be great but can become just exercises and not bring you to where your really swinging. They can be misunderstood in the way that one starts to think more about the comping and not concentrating enough on the ride cymbal. I was told by this organist to play 1/4 notes on the cymbal and then build from there with the cymbal with an occasional Da Ding! at a certain part of the form or chord change. Then he said with regard to comping, build your ideas off the ride cymbal.

I think also taking a lesson from a bass player or a pianist or even a real B3 Jazz organist (as I did)
that really swings can be one of the best things. I did this quite a few yrs ago and went to play this this guy every week for 4 yrs and he taught me more about playing Jazz on the drums than any drum teacher and he wasn't a drummer!! Granted, I had some things together already rudiments, independence but I almost had to learn it all over again in a sense anyway. This was after going to John Riley for lessons prior to the Organist and then Ralph Peterson Jr. for 3 yrs while going to the Organist. They all helped a lot in their own ways but the Organist was where I really got to play tunes/interact and it's like playing with a trio being that he plays the bass in the left hand and feet. Sorry to go on so long but there is no one easy simple answer to this. One more thing, recording oneself a lot and really listening back to what is happening and what is not. Good luck, Jazz is still kicking my ass and I am studying again with a great well known guy and he is killing me! I mean this in a good way. I look forward to the next couple of yrs with this guy..He tore all my shit down and I have seen him like 4times now.

[The Colonel]

This thread is funny/interesting.

Every drummer I know says "Get Syncopation" but about 99% of them don't know what to do with it once they have it. I never thought of it as a "teaching tool" per se, but rather as a book of rhythmic examples. If someone - especially in the early goings - doesn't have that exploratory do-it-yourself mindset - then you're gonna have a drummer sitting there with a book he/she will never/hardly use.

SO!

Go pick up The Complete Drummer's Vocabulary As Taught By Alan Dawson by John Ramsay and go make sense of what you can actually do with Syncopation (and any other rhythm you see/hear). Mr. Dawson is deceased, but we have his entire lesson structure in one amazing book. As long as you push yourself it pretty much makes both Riley books obsolete (with exception to those great transcriptions).

And just to throw it out there - as I consider myself to be a jazz drummer - I find Kind of Blue as being one of THE most overrated albums out there. Sure, it's enjoyable enough, but if THAT is the definition of the jazz ride...ugh. Cobb said he was actually playing the cymbal much louder and they turned him down in the mix. So you have an engineer to thank for your "definitive cymbal sound". No thank you. My definitive ride cymbal sounds come from Elvin and Tony. Anything with them with their respective groups (Coltrane/Miles) or mid-60's Blue Note recordings. THOSE are my ride cymbal recordings.

Then go get some Bill Evans Trio stuff just to throw out those basics you learned.

[TheGroceryman]

I agree with Colonel. Anything with blue note recordings is excellent stuff.

[The Colonel]

I guess I should have said in my previous post, for the newer people in jazz who don't know - Alan Dawson is one of the most respected teachers of the drums EVER. He's the guy who made Tony Williams "Tony Williams".

So I reiterate: Get that book by Ramsay! The Drummer's Complete Vocabulary As Taught By Alan Dawson.

There are stories of drummers all hanging in Boston with Alan, and talking shop, boasting, etc - and you think they'd be whipping off rudiments or something in contest, but instead they'd try to play the *quietest* buzz roll. One of my favorite quotes - and I think Billy Higgins said it to Alan - or maybe the other way around: "It sounds like a rat pissin' on cotton!"

[bjparadiddle]

The Guess Who guy has the right idea about learning to play jazz on the drums. Be musical. Learn music theory and how to read it. There is no one drum book that's going to make you a jazz drummer; there are many paths to the "waterfall," meaning every fine drummer finds their individual path. Furthermost, you must love the music and do a LOT of listening to great bands and drummers. Like Charlie Parker said about playing the saxophone: "You have to live this music; if you don't live it, it wont come out of your horn.

There are great jazz drummers who don't read music. Al Foster, Roy Haynes, to name a few. How did they do it? They played from an early age, listened to great players, and played in bands seven nights a week for years.

There are great jazz drummers who don't have a great grasp of the rudiments; some who can't even roll. Yet, they can swing, make the other musicians want to play.

There are drummers who can play the Stick Control book all they way through, but can't swing a band to save their lives. Learn the music, live the questions, embrace your shortcomings, play simply, until another ideal takes over. That's the path, but no one can tell you which way to take it.

[aydee]

Billy Higgins said it to Alan - or maybe the other way around: "It sounds like a rat pissin' on cotton!"

I've also heard " the thundering footsteps on an ant climbing a wall". Chinese whispers, I guess. I like the rat & cotton story better though..

[The Colonel]

The Guess Who guy has the right idea about learning to play jazz on the drums. Be musical. Learn music theory and how to read it. There is no one drum book that's going to make you a jazz drummer; there are many paths to the "waterfall," meaning every fine drummer finds their individual path. Furthermost, you must love the music and do a LOT of listening to great bands and drummers. Like Charlie Parker said about playing the saxophone: "You have to live this music; if you don't live it, it wont come out of your horn.

There are great jazz drummers who don't read music. Al Foster, Roy Haynes, to name a few. How did they do it? They played from an early age, listened to great players, and played in bands seven nights a week for years.

There are great jazz drummers who don't have a great grasp of the rudiments; some who can't even roll. Yet, they can swing, make the other musicians want to play.

There are drummers who can play the Stick Control book all they way through, but can't swing a band to save their lives. Learn the music, live the questions, embrace your shortcomings, play simply, until another ideal takes over. That's the path, but no one can tell you which way to take it.


While I agree with your premise - you really glib your way past a few big areas:

"Be musical" - Okay. How? "Come on man, be musical!" One man's musicianship is another man's garbage. Just to stick with the book I recommended, there's a section where Alan would have the student sing a jazz melody out loud while playing the first column of Stick Control. Just playing time, and singing the first 8 bars - then playing the first line between the hands and feet while you're still singing. Back to time - still singing, for 8 bars, then playing the second line. If it's a 32 bar song - you're going back to the top for the next 8. repeat repeat down the line. If you're comfortable with all that - do it in 4 bar intervals/switches. You can then try going through the tune and then soloing 32 bars - all the time still singing the melody.

For some people - stuff just clicks - but this exercise is a nice way of just further solidifying not only your concept of the tune, but also your concentration while thinking[SINGING] the melody. It's not an end-all - but it's a very nice "cross training" exercise for your musicianship.

Another is to grab Syncopation and play time and speak out a rhythmic line from an exercise - 4 or 8 bars - and then play it with his different limb variations. Again - just a way of strengthening your concept of the structure of the rhythms and what you can do with them. So if a horn starts playing something - you'll be able to either go with it - or come up with some interesting counterpoint - rather than thinking of things as "fills".


You bring up Stick Control, but you seem to be talking strictly in terms of hand-exercises... You can do so much more with it - and it's a great tool as long as someone has the drive to do something with it more than just with the hands.


Best way I've found for getting a great sub-divide for the "swing feel" is to play really super slow (40-50 bpm) on nothing but the ride (and maybe hats) and saying out loud:

1....trip....let......2.....trip.....let......etc etc accenting on the 2 & 4

I will do this for 10 minutes - adding nothing. Then maybe bring in the snare on the "trip-let" up-beats - accenting the "let" - 10 minutes - then the same with the bass drum - let the snare hand sit back.


All of this done of course, while listening to lots of music. Get some mid-tempo Trane, like "Crescent" - or Wayne Shorter's "Speak No Evil" - great albums both - both with Elvin and tons of swinging ride.

Grab some Miles Davis *before* Tony (I know! I didn't think it was possible either!) Like "Walkin'".

Heck - pick up some Sonny Criss albums like "This is Criss!" and "Portrait of Sonny Criss" and you will hear how effortless and supportive and amazing Alan Dawson was. You might hear some similarities to Roy Haynes - both guys were from Boston, and Haynes says he always admired Dawson.




Just curious...What "great" jazz drummers do you know that "couldn't roll"? I've never heard of anything like that and am curious.

[jazzgregg]

Colonel, is that you Ramsay?=)

G

[The Colonel]

Yep, just trying to make an extra buck. ; )


I just cannot believe people don't own this book. And I feel like people here will not get this book...

[brittc89]

Yep, just trying to make an extra buck. ; )


I just cannot believe people don't own this book. And I feel like people here will not get this book...

Ive had it for a while and I absolutely love it. I got it because my teacher is a former student of Alan Dawson and basically ordered me to buy it. Im yet to get the ritual down but I figure Ill have some time at school to really get into it. Great book.

[paramac]

This thread is funny/interesting.
In response to...

And just to throw it out there - as I consider myself to be a jazz drummer - I find Kind of Blue as being one of THE most overrated albums out there. Sure, it's enjoyable enough, but if THAT is the definition of the jazz ride...ugh. Cobb said he was actually playing the cymbal much louder and they turned him down in the mix. So you have an engineer to thank for your "definitive cymbal sound". No thank you. My definitive ride cymbal sounds come from Elvin and Tony. Anything with them with their respective groups (Coltrane/Miles) or mid-60's Blue Note recordings. THOSE are my ride cymbal recordings.

Then go get some Bill Evans Trio stuff just to throw out those basics you learned.


I have more preferred recordings than K.O.B. as well and I agree with you about the engineer and other variables can make the sound different on a recording. I love all these guys you mention but I am a believer in that a person wanting to play Jazz well and really swing really can't start with Tony or Elvin. I don't think one guy can be "the definition" of the Jazz ride, maybe a great example and Cobb is exactly that.. As Kenny Washing once said in a M.D. interview, they (Elvin Tony) are very misunderstood drummers and I agree with that and Indentify with that in my own experience. Jimmys cymbal is killing and totally swinging. I am not saying you said otherwise but I can't tell from your post. I think you have to get with Blakey, Jo Jones, Philly, Clarke, Roach, Haynes, Cobb Lewis Hayes (there's a guy not many talk about but boy does he swing) Higgins and more. Shit, then you have the great organ drummers. It's interesting that some of the guys I mentioned can sound great in Big Band, Small group, or Organ group and others wouldn't. I know this is subjective but it is true that Blakey and Cobb where guys that did all three and are on recordings of all three. I don't know, the hardest thing to do is swing and become aware of this when I am on certain gigs or at a session in say Harlem NYC where that's what it's all about and the concept of back to basics and really swinging the band and making it feel good are stressed by everyone there. That is a complaint I have found from other musicians about drummers trying to play all this stuff and not swinging the band. It's a bitch, that's for sure..

[jay norem]

How do you know when and what to play when it comes to playing jazz on the kit?

For example, like when is it appropriate for fills? when is it appropriate to hit the crash cymbols? when is it suitable to hit the bass drum? etc..

I've been listening to alot of jazz cds (of course), but I still need some suggestions.

Thanks.
Ben.

I've read this whole thread and I still don't see anywhere where you've actually said that you desperately, sincerely, can't-live-without-it want to play jazz, because if you don't desperately, sincerely, can't-live-without-it want to play jazz then you'll just pick up a few things here and there, mostly from books, and that will pretty much be it.
So here's what I'm asking you DrummerBen: How desperately, sincerely, can't-live-without-it do you want to play jazz?
See, jazz isn't just a few licks to add to your bag of tricks. It's a whole other life, really. I myself have spent decades of my life with it and I still can't pin it down exactly. Everytime I think I've got it worked out I come across something else that turns my head around, the tenor player will pull off an incredible lick, the bass player will throw out a strange little riff, the piano player decides that this chord should go right HERE, and I'm riding along listening to these guys and making it all up as I go along! All of us are. And we're all doing at the same time.
Jazz is a bitch. It's like holding on to the mast of a sailing ship as it goes around the horn. Hang on! Be ready for the next big wave! And no book can prepare you for that.
There is no more excting music to play on the drums than jazz, there is no better or more challenging music than jazz, for me anyway. And it's a hell of a lot to take on.
Edit: when you've arrived at the place where jazz lives in your head all the time, you know what? You're just finally getting started.

[wy yung]

Good Lord! I remember reading the jazz drummers round table in MD a while ago and the younger guys were saying things like "We bleed for this music" or some such comment. Roy Haynes laughed at them.

It's no big deal. Louis Bellson once told me this: "If you want to learn how to swing and play jazz, it's all on record. Just listen."

There ya go.

[jay norem]

Good Lord! I remember reading the jazz drummers round table in MD a while ago and the younger guys were saying things like "We bleed for this music" or some such comment. Roy Haynes laughed at them.

It's no big deal. Louis Bellson once told me this: "If you want to learn how to swing and play jazz, it's all on record. Just listen."

There ya go.

Jazz drummers in a Modern Drummer article said this. Louis Bellson said that. The books say what and how. Tony said this in an article. Elvin said that. A teacher said whatever.
But what do YOU say, as an individual, just yourself, as an experienced jazz drummer?
All these books and records and quotes from the the big guys and the teachers. What do YOU say? All by yourself, just you and your drumming, yeah?

[wy yung]

What do YOU say? All by yourself, just you and your drumming, yeah?

It's just drumming. Not life and death. Frankly I don't value jazz any higher than I do any other style, be it mambo, samba, funk, soul or rock. I play mambo, samba etc but I wont kill myself for it. Music is music. It's supposed to be fun.

[jay norem]

It's just drumming..

So playing jazz well on the drumset is "just drumming."
"Just drumming."
That's what you, all by yourself as a jazz drummer, have to say about playing jazz on the drums. "It's just drumming."
Nothing is "just drumming," and certainly not jazz. That's my opinion, based on my experience in my own little life, and I've played jazz for at least thirty years. Let me think...yes, that's just about right.
But of course, you're as entitled to your opinion as I'm entitled to mine.

[tim1987]

Well I have started studying with a highly respected teacher in the UK.

Before that I thought that my jazz time playing had come a long way and was getting into the beyond bop book, trying to get into broken time playing etc, but I have to tell you that now I have gone back to the very basics, I haven't realised how much depends on the actual motions and the flow that is required make it work.

I started by feathering the bass drum on all four beats, hi hat on two and four. Then you obviously play the ride, but I never realised how quiet the skip note needs to be. The 4 quarter notes are at about M.F and then the skip note should be at PPP. The thing is though is that sounds so much more right. Then, you sing the subdivisions, and if there is a comping part, you sing that, and then sing the upbeats. My teacher believes if you can't sing it, you can't play it and that is sooooo true.

I am working with a bass play along by a British drummer called Allan Cox entitled"Meet the Bass Player". I'm starting at tempos of 40 and 50bpm, which really takes a lot of discipline to lock in with the music. The range of tempos that the CD goes are from 40 to 340bpm.

I think this is Jim Blackley's (Canada) method of beginning to work on jazz time. I have been recommended his books which I've ordered from him in Canada- "Syncopated Rolls for the Modern Drummer", "The Essence of Jazz Drumming" and "Rhythmical Explorations Vol 1, 2 and 3." Looking forward to receiving the books!

[byronand]

It's just drumming.

Yep... sort-of like big-wave surfing is just surfing. :)

[spleen]

"It sounds like a rat pissin' on cotton!"

Too funny, I remember John Ramsay telling me about that years ago.

spleen

[Drumyourfaceoff]

Jazz -

We can hash over all of the musical "rules" and what legendary drummer did this and that... But it has always seemed to me that the way we express ourselves musically is THROUGH the techniques and conditioners. It's easy to say "be musical about it," but without conditioners and repetitively creating better muscle memory in our limbs we are fairly limited in our creativity. You can't just throw drumsticks at someone and say "just feel it out." We are blessed to live in a day and age where all of the knowledge and advice is right at our fingertips. I mean, that's really what a lot of drum literature is: A series of very valuable and well thought out conditioners to enhance your creativity. Think of Chapin's "Advanced techniques for the modern drummer." Some of the most practical conditioners every published. So simple in nature too. It's ironic really. Ironic that guy's like me need advice because I can't always think of them on my own! Luckily for me they are provided.

FOR ME... Learning to play jazz, bebop, swing, waltz etc. drumming consists of spending a LOT of time (and I do mean A HELL OF A LOT OF TIME) becoming extremely familiar and comfortable playing just about any combination of rhythms with your kick, snare, and hat underneath the typical ride ostinato with the right hand. Sound daunting? Well it is. But there are logical approaches left and right. Some conditioners are so tough that they need to be played extremely slow at first and speed will only come with a lot of practice. The main thing is to become COMFORTABLE with the rhythms, especially since playing everything with a triplet feel is so much more challenging than duple meter.

I'm sure you are looking for some examples. Alan Dawson take charge:::>

Try this.

-Ride cymbal : Bang-splangadang (1 - 2a3 - 4a) classic jazz ostinato
-Kick drum: Feathered on 1 2 3 4 (That's right I said it, on the QUARTER NOTES)
Bare with me...

Now, ready for a fantastic be-bop independence exercise? Keep the above mentioned consistent, NOW swing the eighths in the first three pages of Stone's "STICK CONTROL" (actually pages 5, 6, and 7 I believe) BETWEEN the snare drum and hi-hat (left foot heel-up). Use this key:

R - snare
L - Hi-hat

So in this exercise we barely hear the kick drum at all. The ride cymbal is strong. And the hi-hat is played heel-up so it keeps a crisp, syncopated voice (never to allow it to splash). The rhythm between the hi-hat and snare sounds awesome and creates a lot of room for creative possibilities. This is a great "conditioner" to expand your rhythmic voice in jazz drumming. Yet another great way to utilize STICK CONTROL (the possibilities are endless as we all know). You could also rim-click the snare on "4" and play the RLRLRLRL combinations between your feet! (always swung eighths, remember this!).

This brings new meaning to the paradiddle. And RRLR RLRR LLRL LRLL becomes a really great groove. And RRRR LLLL RRRR LLLL becomes an excellent and fairly simple way to create independence with your hi-hat because YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER TO KEEP THE KICK ON THE QUARTERS CONSISTENT. This will prove very hard at first... Which is why it's a great exercise.

For a more direct "be-bop" approach, just do the traditional jazz ostinato with the ride and hi-hat and play the STICK CONTROL combinations between the kick and snare... Maybe distributing some accents. Try riding on the hi-hat.

Basically the ways to develop your own creative voice are seamless. Boy, if you can develop your kick, snare, and hi-hat enough, jazz becomes a whole other universe of possibilities. This is just one example out of thousands to help you learn how to creatively "comp" over the ride cymbal.

- This is obviously not the "end all is all" of jazz drumming and I am by no means a virtuoso... But my independence sky-rocketed with exercises like this under my belt. Not just in jazz. It helps with rock, funk, afro-cuban... etc.. you name it. Most of all HAVE FUN WITH IT.

Becoming comfortable with conditioners to the point of playing them back to back and without looking at the book is one of the best ways to "build a musical vocabulary."

I hope this helps a tiny bit.


- Joseph