Why does speed matter so much?

[emmerson]

honestly i dont understand this pretty much every single person i know thinks that youre "insane" from just being fast i find that technique and style is more important than speed by a long shot whats so great about speed besides its fast? i can understand being fast and technical at the same time is good becasue youve practised it but only being able to go fast is another thing .. i just dont understand why peoples fixation is on speed.

[dizkneelande]

In my opinion, it's just a means to an end. Like to achieve the desired sound you want. It doesn't matter one bit if it's sloppy and sounds bad. But, if it's well done it can make you dance. Control over speed always.

[foursticks]

Question: Why does speed matter so much?
Answer: It doesn't - end of.

Next?

[brittc89]

Because its impressive.
Because it takes a long time to acheive through hard work.
Because quarter notes are boring.
Because speed is a means to express musicality.
Because youre an entertainer.

[JWM]

To me, developing speed as a drummer is like developing your range as a singer. In order to really achieve something with it, you have to patiently work through the levels. By working through the levels, you develop the ability to play slow, mid and fast tempos at different dynamic ranges. In addition, it can do wonders for your technique, because in order to play really fast, you need to know how to play with good technique and relaxation. This will only aid your general playing and make things much easier all around.

In theory, I think that practicing in a progressive manner naturally leads to speed.

[JWM]

P.S. Any drummer who is able to achieve true speed, is one who is patient, because it takes tremendous patience to work from really slow to really fast (the only path to true speed). This kind of patience can only lead to being a better and more patient drummer.

Singers and other band members like patient drummers.

[mikeybbdrummin]

To me it is good to have speed as a skill in drumming. But it also has to be used at the right time w/the right people your playing with. Just to use speed because you can is something you do when your young and learning. I know I did. BUT........then I realized Im not the center of attention. Speed to me is over rated. If you in a speed metal or death metal band then its par for the course. To be expected.

[dawg]

knowing when and when not to apply speed (more notes )= taste.speed is to be attained because of the forward motion it can give a song.but speed for speed's sake is pointless,can detract from a song and not make musical sense...espcially if it's sloppy. however, nice even rolls even if not played at breakneck speeds with accents thrown in can give the illusion of something played faster.

[JWM]

however, nice even rolls even if not played at breakneck speeds with accents thrown in can give the illusion of something played faster.
YES! Especially to non-drummers.

[fourstringdrums]

Because when you have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the solo, you need to get through it as quickly as possible.

The mystery is solved :)

[jimmyq]

Emmerson, I totally agree with you on the style and technique thing. As far as SPEED is concerned, it's just hype. What I say is: If you can't play it slow, you can't play it fast. I'll bet if you tell a speed drummer to play what their playing twice as slow, they can't. BOTTOM line, technique is far more important than speed. Sometimes less is more. Later!

[Michael Levine]

It is said so many times from teachers to students, and to me. No one really understands it, but I promise it is true:

It takes more talent and control to play at low levels and softly than loud and aggressive. This being said; play as fast as you can, but to really impress play soft and fast. Try playing those 200 bpm on your snare at 1-2 inch stick heights!

[mattsmith]

I'll bet if you tell a speed drummer to play what their playing twice as slow, they can't.

I accept that bet. Please provide date, time, and place.

[mattsmith]

Try playing those 200 bpm on your snare at 1-2 inch stick heights!

Please check out the miles and miles of discussion on this topic, and with respect, don't stereotype. I have tried the 1-2 inch stick heights at that speed, and found them far too low (lol). Honestly guys, when are we finally going to resolve this issue about speed and technique not being mutually exclusive?

[brittc89]

I cant help but find that the only people who complain about the whole speed thing are people who are not fast, thus they dont understand the effort and determination that it takes to acheive that.

[Stu_Strib]

Because its impressive.
Because it takes a long time to acheive through hard work.
Because quarter notes are boring.
Because speed is a means to express musicality.
Because youre an entertainer.

ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE
Somewhat agree.
COMPLETELY DISAGREE.
Somewhat disagree.
Agree.

Honestly, I'm disappointed in your response, Britt, considering your skill level. Maybe it is a maturity thing? Maybe speed wears out its welcome after a few years. If you think quarter notes are boring, then you miss the whole point of music. There is much more space between quarter notes than there is between 16ths. Sometimes (ok, most of the time) it is more about what you DON'T play...

I cant help but find that the only people who complain about the whole speed thing are people who are not fast, thus they dont understand the effort and determination that it takes to acheive that.

Equally disappointing, but there is a shred of truth there. I'm not the fastest player in the world, nor do I care, nor do I work on getting faster. It isn't important to play blistering fast double bass and 1000 bpm singles when you play laid back rock and blues music. I tried for 3 months straight to get to 1000bpm, about 4-5 hours a day with a practice pad and just figured it is too much work to push beyond 800bpm. So I understand the work it would take for ME to get there. Some guys can just put sticks in their hands with no technique or training and go 800-1000 bpm, so it isn't always hard work.

My answer to the question is speed can sound really cool in the appropriate musical context, but is so overused and abused that it has become cliche.

Stu

[Stu_Strib]

I accept that bet. Please provide date, time, and place.

LOL! In Matt's case, you have to lower it 4x as slow, because Matt is 2x as fast as the rest of us ;-)

[Pete Stoltman]

Control over speed is important in making you a well rounded musician. However, I can only go as fast in any given song as the slowest guy in the band:) To be a practice pad monster has little musical appeal to me.

[Stu_Strib]

Complexity trumps speed any day.

The fills at the end of Asa are not beyond my speed abilities, but musically it is so complex that I find it mind-bogglingly difficult to play.

On the other hand, if I had the hand speed of Buddy Rich, I could play that stuff all day. My brain would be on auto-run.

For me the "WOW" factor comes from guys like Smith, Weckl, Vinnie, et al. that have speed and complexity, especially when they use both at the same time, thrown in with subtle not complex stuff for musical contrast.

The last time I said, 'wow, that's really fast' was when I watched a TigerBill video on how to increase single stroke speeds.

[brittc89]

ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE
Somewhat agree.
COMPLETELY DISAGREE.
Somewhat disagree.
Agree.

Honestly, I'm disappointed in your response, Britt, considering your skill level. Maybe it is a maturity thing? Maybe speed wears out its welcome after a few years. If you think quarter notes are boring, then you miss the whole point of music. There is much more space between quarter notes than there is between 16ths. Sometimes (ok, most of the time) it is more about what you DON'T play...

Let me say this in my defense. IN that list, I was basically linking everything to the last one, the entertainer part. I am not bored personally by a quarter note or a jazz ballad or anything slow, but the average, non-musician can be and most times will be. And I guess I was reflecting speed more on a solo standpoint? But like I said, i was all winding down to the entertainment part. Believe me, in no way am I blatantly disrespecting the quarter note.

[Pete Stoltman]

All in favor of the quarter note say "aye"!
Actually to avoid confusion (or maybe add to it) a quarter note defines the duration of a note, not tempo (speed).

[Fullback32]

It doesn't, depending on the type of music. Ask Charlie Watts or Ringo Starr.

[Class A Drummer]

i find that technique and style is more important than speed by a long shot .
I could not agree with you more. But if you have great technique, speed should pretty much come natural to you.

[HardcoreLogo]

To me, and this is my opinion, the whole speed issue is really more to do with the "sport" aspect that will always be stuck to our instrument........it's a personal goal, and though I believe every drummer should try to achieve a certain level of techniqual facility, being the fastest hands or feet really has nothing to do with playing great music.........many times, and yes even on these DW forums, I have seen the "technique" guys display their actual playing and it gets so abstract that it is really hard to sit and listen to.
I would have to say I agree with Stu_Strib's comments on this issue.

[Auger]

Well, I sort of agree with stu here, but sort of don't. To me, speed and complexity are two sides of the same coin: neither is inherently good or bad. A piece of boring music that's very complex and very fast isn't boring because of its speed or complexity ...it's boring because it's boring. Likewise, a simple piece of music that's absolutley great isn't that way because it's simple. What makes something good is sooooo much more complex than that and, although most of us will know it when we hear it, almost none of us (certainly including myself) can just use a simple formula to explain what makes something good as in: simple = good or complex = bad. That's why we call it art, ha ha. And then there's the little factor of personal taste which just makes it all that much more complicated.

To me speed and complexity are factors of teqniuqe, which is equivalent to craftsmanship. While I don't discount technique and it's usefulness, I think that there are so many other factors which are just as, if not more important in making great music, or, dare I say, great art.

And, I guess that's why I'm not all that impressed by speed and complexity (which is very different from saying I'm not ever impressed by music that is fast or complex) -because a lot of times I see that stuff and I feel like if I just took enough time practicing, I could do that. Now, if the only thing between me and a piece of music is hours of practice, it just doesn't seem that special any more.

But, when I listen to something like the beat in Aretha Franklin's version of 'respect' (as well as the whole song wrapped around that beat) I think -wow- that's not hours of practice ...that's magic. Even though I could play that tune in my sleep technically, there's no amount of practice I could do that would make it sound like it does when the original guy laid it down. That's because it's not just technique, but all the life experiences and emotions and thousands and thousands of little decisions and thought processes that that drummer was putting into the song and communicating in his playing -and that's what makes it art. At least, to me, anyway.

And -I also think the opposite about people who can't play fast claiming to not be impressed by speed. When I was starting out, I was really easily impressed by music that was technically difficult. It seemed so unattainable and indecipherable. Some of that music looks pretty easy now and, once you take away that veil of complexity, it just doesn't seem that special anymore.


Anyway, sorry to ramble ...just my opinions.

[mattsmith]

To me, and this is my opinion, the whole speed issue is really more to do with the "sport" aspect that will always be stuck to our instrument........it's a personal goal, and though I believe every drummer should try to achieve a certain level of techniqual facility, being the fastest hands or feet really has nothing to do with playing great music.........many times, and yes even on these DW forums, I have seen the "technique" guys display their actual playing and it gets so abstract that it is really hard to sit and listen to.
I would have to say I agree with Stu_Strib's comments on this issue.
I will continue to say this again and again and again, despite the ongoing 2001 tape loop of old dicredited arguments...Technique, speed and musicianship do not have to be mutually exclusive. Hardcore, I understand your opinion of the drum stigna stereotype. I just don't happen to agree with it. As I have said before, the world of percussion can handle it. We need not be so self absorbed. I was just at a drum festival where the host dished out 20 bass player and trombone jokes. There's nothin' to this.

And Pete Stoltman, just so you know. I have yet to see a single obsessed parctice pad monster in speed drumming. They're all usually working more on their kits. But again, I understand the stereotype. But, that's all it is.

ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE
Somewhat agree.
COMPLETELY DISAGREE.
Somewhat disagree.
Agree.

Honestly, I'm disappointed in your response, Britt, considering your skill level.
Stu

Stu, I have heard Britt play and he is not speed obsessed at all. In fact he is a pretty deeply eclectic groove oriented player, with a multinational bend that never once made me think of speed. I'm not speakin' for him of course, but I think he was only bringing up something I found true myself, specifically that most drummers who really harp/to the point of obsession/ on the anti-speed issue are not that fast themselves, and may have issues about that.

I'm also not talkin' about you, since I've always seen you attempt to examine both sides, and you're a really good player. Besides, you're not that kind of a person anyway.

Now, I can really respect this viewpoint alot more if it comes from say my Romanian mentor, who thinks speed drumming stuff is silly, but might just be faster than me. This is also not to discount the opinions of educated slower drummers who are making educated validations, and like I, am concerned with these speed is God people. They bug me too, but I do not encourage them with what I do anymore than Sylvester Stallone gets somebody to pick up an AK47 after watchin' one of his movies.

But what has gotten old is this ongoing lumping together of all fast drummers, as to imply we don't understand the bigger, more spiritual side. For some of the more disingenuous it's more a series of code words established by these guys to push speed into an unnecessary dark corner. I'm not remotely sayin' that anyone here is doing this. But it is a problem.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I accept that bet. Please provide date, time, and place.

My man Matt!!!

The bottom line is that speed is just another tool in your toolbox. A drummer should work on developing relaxed speed because the roll is our version of a long tone not because he wants his little friends to go "Wow!".

Those drummers that have developed their relaxed speed to the level of a WFD champ should be respected for their technical achievements. Speed doesn't automatically make you a better musician but having the ABILITY to play rolls at faster tempos does add more options to your arsenal. The muisic is the king and we serve what it demands.

Just look at Joe Morello for proof. The man could play 16ths at 300 BPM yet his most famous solo "Take Five" doesn't have any blazing chops at all in it.

So, Why does speed matter so much?

It doesn't, really. What matters is the ability to say what you want to on your instrument.

[d.c.drummer]

Sure we can be speed bashers ( i persopnally hat when people just speed around the toms like a bad tornado) but you have to say speed never hurt Rich, Mayer, Weckle or Chambers.

Mustard isn't good by itself but wth a hot dog its just the right stuff.
Think of speed like mustard and the hot dog technique. To much mustard to little hot dog is bad. To much hot dog and to little mustard is not so good.

Speed is not every thing but if you cant play quarter notes at 60 BPM no matter how much technique you have your not going to be an effective drummer. Speed matters, its just not everything.

[Stu_Strib]

Stu, I have heard Britt play and he is not speed obsessed at all. In fact he is a pretty deeply eclectic groove oriented player,

I agree 100%. That's why I was disappointed in his response. I was especially bothered by "quarter notes are boring". But if he is saying that from the perspective of how speed freaks think, then yeah, that's pretty true. And he made up for it by distancing himself from the comments by stating they were geared towards the showman aspect of drumming.

I totally understand your point now Britt, and expected as much from you!

Matt, you are slow ;-)

Stu

[Pete Stoltman]

Matt, no offense intended on the practice pad monster thing. I'm surprised that you haven't encountered this syndrome. I've been in drum shops and seen guys do blazing things on the pad and then find out later that the guy just showed me everything he can do. Can't play within a rhythm section, no sense of groove, no vocabulary of different styles, etc. I certainly have a good amount of respect for people who can play fast but that is just one piece of the whole puzzle.
If I'm not mistaken I understand that you compete in the fast drumming contests and that's way cool. I admire the determination that I'm sure it took to accomplish your goals. As a former drum corps guy I've seen guys prepare and perform some incredibly difficult solos and know what kind of dedication that takes. I'm sure your efforts were tremendous in getting to your goal.

[brittc89]

I totally understand your point now Britt, and expected as much from you!
Cool! Im glad we are on the same page now.

[Stu_Strib]

[QUOTE=Pete Stoltman]I've been in drum shops and seen guys do blazing things on the pad and then find out later that the guy just showed me everything he can do. Can't play within a rhythm section, no sense of groove, no vocabulary of different styles, etc. I certainly have a good amount of respect for people who can play fast but that is just one piece of the whole puzzle.
QUOTE]

Exactly right! Just like when Britt and Matt say people that diss speed probably can't play fast? People who focus so much on speed probably can't play pocket or groove or musically. Of course there are exceptions (cough, Matt, cough), but this point is just as valid as people who diss speed aren't fast players. Like Matt said, speed, complexity and musicality don't NEED to be mutually exclusive: unfortunately more than not, they are. Example: Thomas Lang...supposedly a groove monster loaded with musicality, but has yet to prove it to anyone ;-)

[millerdakiller]

I'm pretty sure we've had this debate like 80 times alreadly. Let it die. Yes speed is good. But style is better. Argument over.

[HardcoreLogo]

I will continue to say this again and again and again, despite the ongoing 2001 tape loop of old dicredited arguments...Technique, speed and musicianship do not have to be mutually exclusive. Hardcore, I understand your opinion of the drum stigna stereotype. I just don't happen to agree with it. As I have said before, the world of percussion can handle it. We need not be so self absorbed. I was just at a drum festival where the host dished out 20 bass player and trombone jokes. There's nothin' to this.

And Pete Stoltman, just so you know. I have yet to see a single obsessed parctice pad monster in speed drumming. They're all usually working more on their kits. But again, I understand the stereotype. But, that's all it is.

Don't take it as a personal attack, or that I don't find intrest in the "sport" aspect of our craft, but, playing just for the sake of speed IS a sport.......is that a bad thing, no way.....but the question asked was Why does speed matter so much? and that is what I was commenting on.So I guess the real question is.......Matter to what?
If your in a speed comp.....it matters alot.........if you want to play great music, it matters, but not to the same degree.
Let's remember, Rich was one fast cat, but he also could swing like a mother and played good drumset...and great music!!!So, what will he be remembered the most for? I hope as a musician!

[HardcoreLogo]

{/QUOTE}Exactly right! Just like when Britt and Matt say people that diss speed probably can't play fast? People who focus so much on speed probably can't play pocket or groove or musically. Of course there are exceptions (cough, Matt, cough), but this point is just as valid as people who diss speed aren't fast players. Like Matt said, speed, complexity and musicality don't NEED to be mutually exclusive: unfortunately more than not, they are. Example: Thomas Lang...supposedly a groove monster loaded with musicality, but has yet to prove it to anyone ;-)[/QUOTE]

Amen!

[jimmyq]

I accept that bet. Please provide date, time, and place.
Okay Matt, how's about this saturday 8/5/2006, my place, around 3:00pm. I can sure use about $20 bucks for gas this weekend so I'll bet $20 bucks or more, whatever you can afford to loose. Peace out!

[Chip]

I'm not worried about speed anymore. I still have to work my double bass control (I'm in a metal band, though I'd much prefer funk) and evenness, and I'm not going to get crazy trying to hit 200BPM 16ths.

If anybody says to me "how fast can you play?" and I have my snare there, I can say 186bpm 32nds, no buzzing. If they want to be impressed, I can do that. Musically, it's just a sound. Very little use for musical application, and anybody can do it within an hour at most. Ask me if you want to know, it's very easy.

I used to be able to do the whole B. Rich sounding snare solos, but I switched to maple stiks and because they are lighter I lost the feel of hickory. Won't take long to get back control with hickory, though, I'm not overly worried.

In closing, it's vital for some expression at lengths, but certainly not 240bpm 16ths or something stupid. Control, anyday.

[low-tech]

ive defended speed drumming so much here its funny, i even defend it against other people who are into fast playing but dont appreciate the particular speed drumming i like

speed is just one end of an extreme, one end of a dynamic range. some bands focus entirely on it, which obviously i have no problem with. peoples ideas of the virtue of the "groove" is just as self serving as any showboat speed demon whos "insane". and i always maintained. originality<composition

NOONE HAS A HIGHER MUSICAL INTEGRETY THAN OTHERS. this includes all you jazz guys.

i think non musicians can tell the difference between technique and just speed for speeds sake, they can tell a showboat from someone who uses subtlety and just because they acknowledge that fast playing can be "insane" it doesnt rule out the other aspects of playing as being important.

speed is not rewarded in the way one expects asking such a question, drummers may debate about it, but the fact remains exclusively fast music doesnt dominate music, neither is really technical music. drummers are admired for thier abilities as drummers in such regards, not musicians.

what makes a lasting impression is the composition and originality. who wants to hear the same old song? who wants to watch a bunch of guys enjoy playing thier music more than the crowd likes to watch? how about music so pretentious and pendantic it doesnt get people out of thier seats?.

[Chip]

If they don't want to watch, who cares? Music is about expression not just entertainment. You express yourself how you want to, and if people want to watch, so be it. It's not like we are the servants to entertain them.

Dynamics (which I perceive as the varying level/range of volume, not speed) is a very versatile way of adding to musical possibilities. Now a lot of the 'speed demons' barely use dynamics. I'm not saying all. But most of the speed drummers are into death metal etc. and there are a lot of blast beats involved. When it is all accents, where is the beat? Where is the rhythm? Rhythm is a crucial part of music.

'Groove' [as a verb or adj.] has been coined as the "musician's sense of rhythm", while subjective, you cannot honestly say that a blast has more groove than a good jazz lick. Some people may say that speed drumming is more of a sport. Then why compare it to drumming? Apples and oranges.

[Stu_Strib]

drummers are admired for thier abilities as drummers in such regards, not musicians.

.

I disagree with nearly everything you said in your post and could write a book on it.

The quoted part especially! The day people don't consider me a musician is the day I quit drumming. I have obviously failed if I am not a musician.

I also strongly disagree with this statement:

peoples ideas of the virtue of the "groove" is just as self serving as any showboat speed demon whos "insane".

You obviously don't know what a groove is if you think it means being self-serving.

You are clearly a fan of loud/fast/hard music, but your attempt to shoot down "jazz guys" is irrelevant to the topic at hand. I would contend that most good "jazz guys" are faster than most of you metal heads anyway, but again, it doesn't matter.

[Stu_Strib]

If they don't want to watch, who cares? Music is about expression not just entertainment. You express yourself how you want to, and if people want to watch, so be it. It's not like we are the servants to entertain them.

Careful Chip! I made this same argument a long time ago and nearly got flamed out of the forum! I agree with you 100% As artists we are free to play how and what we want. We AREN'T servants (depending on how much we want to gig) and musical integrity still has a role.

[neilpscuz]

Oddly enough one of the best sayings I've ever heard on this subject comes from the gtr. world," Eddie Van Halen can play like a million notes in a minute, but Carlos Santana can play 1 note and touch a million people", for me this sums it up beautifully.

[Pete Stoltman]

Low Tech said: "NOONE HAS A HIGHER MUSICAL INTEGRETY THAN OTHERS"

You are kidding right?

[boomboomda]

Speed is definitely a good thing to have. Even in relatively slow to medium songs (about 100-115bpm) 32nd notes sound damn good sometimes,and you have to be fast to play those.Speed doesn't mean that you have to constantly do licks all over your set in lightning fashion it is just good to have the resource, so when the time comes you can deliver.

[low-tech]

If they don't want to watch, who cares? Music is about expression not just entertainment. You express yourself how you want to, and if people want to watch, so be it. It's not like we are the servants to entertain them.

when you play a show, its, you know, a situation when you actually "show" people what your up to. so yeah, you express yourself, but the bottom line is entertrainment, its all about how it effects the listener and if they are into it. otherwise what you have is a hobby my man

Dynamics (which I perceive as the varying level/range of volume, not speed) is a very versatile way of adding to musical possibilities. Now a lot of the 'speed demons' barely use dynamics. I'm not saying all. But most of the speed drummers are into death metal etc. and there are a lot of blast beats involved. When it is all accents, where is the beat? Where is the rhythm? Rhythm is a crucial part of music. [/QUOTE]

i define dynamics a little different then, crescendo is volume, dynamics include rhtyhm and volume and tempo. thats just the way i look at it. i see it more as a range in tempo, thats all.

'Groove' [as a verb or adj.] has been coined as the "musician's sense of rhythm", while subjective, you cannot honestly say that a blast has more groove than a good jazz lick. Some people may say that speed drumming is more of a sport. Then why compare it to drumming? Apples and oranges.

i feel "groove" is relative, what consititutes it, ill get into it more will quoting mr strib


The quoted part especially! The day people don't consider me a musician is the day I quit drumming. I have obviously failed if I am not a musician.


im just saying there is a difference between the ability in drumming and ability of a musician. speed used in context as being a big feat in the ability of a drummer as opposed to something musical. i dont think speed in music is praised that much or if it is its small genres of music that go for that sort of thing.

people usually recognize it as talent as a drummer but popular music is therefore not exclusively fast music. this is my point, i dont see the correlation between drummers who play fast and the end result of fast music being a popular art form. if death metal or some intense fast jazz music dominated the world then the thread title question would be a little more valid


You obviously don't know what a groove is if you think it means being self-serving.

You are clearly a fan of loud/fast/hard music, but your attempt to shoot down "jazz guys" is irrelevant to the topic at hand. I would contend that most good "jazz guys" are faster than most of you metal heads anyway, but again, it doesn't matter.

oh no i shoot jazz guys down by saying what they do is not superior as some make it out, oh no, evil low-tech strikes again!!!!

yes,yes im also getting the high-brow amount of self sanctamonious,holier-than-thou attitude of the "groove".

as i said before the groove is "relative" its not exclusive to stuff your into, dude.

i play in a band where the average song is around 30-60bpms. given the situation and type of music i have to utilize different things, different subtlety, what i consider "groove" or "in the pocket". you probably wont like. but its still there, i still try and it can be seen as valid in someones eyes. most of my bands songs are a series of drones literally and what i do is raise and lower the volume and tempo very slightly,very gradually as the music itself runs thru alot of chord variation and very slight changes for songs that are supposed to be atmosheric and minimalist moreso than "dynamic". in my band i cant utilize stuff you would consider "groove" or its a small amount of stuff given the context. but however we play very slow, distorted music for people into that sort of thing. its meant to explore that aspect of tempo,the approach of dissonant vs harmonic, gradual but deep crescendo. moreso than convential "groove" patterns and beats.

i dont even like the word "groove". because its held to a standard in which certain styles of music is validated and treated as unshakable scripture over others. i like the word "composition" my self and it can overlap with "groove"

[Stu_Strib]

You still obviously have no idea what "pocket" and "groove" means. Nor do you understand dynamics (based on your own post).

That's ok, you go on playing fast and showing your ability and leave the MUSIC up to me.

Here's a hint: hardly anyone in the audience cares about what your are doing. All that matters is what it sounds like. If you play a 2 hour set, then pull half the bar to the side and ask them to point the drummer out of a lineup, most of them can't do it.

[beatsMcGee]

i agree with stu when he talks about musicality and such, but a big part of that is also being able to express what ever it is that your thinking... and to do so you will need chops and speed... not saying that you should just hit things randomly as fast as you can that would be stupid... speed must be VERY CONTROLLED and CLEAN to sound good and be inpressive... and you cant go overboard with it.. you must have taste when you use your speed and only to enhance the song, and never hinder the groove.... that is when speed is important... ( i mean fills would be boring if they were all really slow) you can have pocket and groove and still display your speed when apropriate..


example-- i absolutely love the Gospel Chops drummer fills that we see alot...

[Drums558]

Here's a hint: hardly anyone in the audience cares about what your are doing. All that matters is what it sounds like. If you play a 2 hour set, then pull half the bar to the side and ask them to point the drummer out of a lineup, most of them can't do it.

Sad but very true.
I've had freinds tell me about the great band at a club they went to, I ask "How was the drummer" and they say "I didn't notice, but the band was great". Must have been a good drummer is my response.

I have alot of respect for the guys that have controled speed, this is a PART of what I work on also. It is a piece of the overall picture. That said i can say speed has rarely been the limiting factor for me when learning a new piece of music. I think speed and control are aspects of our playing that we should develope, along with groove, musicality, touch, listening, technique, various styles, the ability to play at slow tempos, dynamics, etc, you get my point. There are many facets to drumming inside of music, speed is only one of them.

Mike

[low-tech]

You still obviously have no idea what "pocket" and "groove" means. Nor do you understand dynamics (based on your own post).

That's ok, you go on playing fast and showing your ability and leave the MUSIC up to me.

Here's a hint: hardly anyone in the audience cares about what your are doing. All that matters is what it sounds like. If you play a 2 hour set, then pull half the bar to the side and ask them to point the drummer out of a lineup, most of them can't do it.


first of all im only echoing concensus about speed just being a tool, high tempo playing being one singular dimension and added that it doesnt matter so much, not in the way the question was asked. some people argue that it overrides what they consider "musicallity" "groove", i dont have a problem with that so much, i just feel noones an authority over an abstract concept. and further peoples idea of being musical, have the "groove" can just be as narrowminded and one dimensional as people who show off, the gloryhounds.

i know dynamics includes the various volume levels within all the sounds that form a drumbeat. i just i consider tempo changes are more so important and should be included with that, sorry for not being a walking dictionary on musical terms. crescendo can also describe the variations in volume overall or maybe just certain parts of the beat.


secondly if you didnt happen to notice in my last post i just explained to you that i play in a band that for most part incredibly slow,minimalistic music. im not arguing in the defense of fast music as a whole here,just fast playing in general. we could be talking about how a drummer fills during song, how they solo etc.

[low-tech]

double post double post

[kjsm]

like the earlier post, it doesn't is your answer.
but like scales (though rudiments are probably more closely related to scales), they are neccessary to, as the other early poster said, work on your range. being able to play good clean extremes like eg. 250 bpm (i think that's the kind of tempo im talking about) means (at least if you're a conscientious musician) that your 180 is in perfect control etc - playing at a fast speed provided no sloppiness is really occurring often results in better playing at the correct speed (in this case slower) and it works both ways - when your speed playing is lacking in cleanliness, practising a bit slower and more (mentally as well as physically) relaxed often can only help.

enjoy drums.

kjsm

[Stu_Strib]

i just feel noones an authority over an abstract concept. and further peoples idea of being musical, have the "groove" can just be as narrowminded and one dimensional as people who show off, the gloryhounds.

Groove is easy to identify and isn't abstract. It either grooves or it doesn't. It is simply the difference between good drumming and mediocre drumming. It is hard to put in words what groove is, but it indisputible when you hear it. It isn't narrow-minded at all! Nor is it one dimensional, because EVERY genre of music can groove. Groove is probably the one common thread that all music can share. Groove is so multi-dimensional it isn't even funny! Whatever Groove is, you know right away that it is grooving.

[centralzeke]

All good musicians should understand that it's important to work on your weaknesses. If you are so ridiculously "in the pocket" in your beats and fills that you can't get out, great for you. But that shouldn't be the only thing you work on!!! Everyone just likes to get better at what they're already good at.. it's the easy way out by saying you're mostly a "groove" drummer. If you're already so good at feel and groove, why not devote some of your time to speed!??

[Chip]

crescendo can also describe the variations in volume overall or maybe just certain parts of the beat.

A cresendo is for a rise in volume over notes. Accents are used where only one note is louder, and there are anti-accents, too. Cresendos play a big part in dynamics, as do accents. Because you consider tempo changes important, that doesn't make them dynamics. They are part of dynamics.

It is hard to put in words what groove is, but it indisputible when you hear it
Exactly.

Dynamics are just another [important]expressive technique.

The bad thing about all these speed drummers, is that if a kid watches them, they will most likely try and replicate that, and sacrifice clean notes for sloppy fast ones. I also see this in instructional videos, like T. Lang's. From viewing it, it's as if he expects you to be able to do a single stroke roll between hands and feet like he does, almost straight away.

I find it important that if you ever teach somebody something, do it as slow as you can first, emphasizing clean notes and how you should practice it slow before moving up the tempo (and make sure that you say that you did as well), then if you can, play it fast to show what it would sound like fast, then play it fast and sloppy on purpose to show what would happen if you rushed into playing it fast.

[Sticktrick]

Imagine this dialogue:

Person A: "Hey great, you are a drummer! What kind of drummer are you? Jazzdrummer? Rockdrummer? Latindrummer? Something in between?"

Drummer: "Nothing of all that, I'm a speed drummer!"

Person A: "So who do you play with then and how does it sound?"

Drummer: "I ususally play with this guy called drumometer, he is incredible I can tell you that! No matter how fast you play, he will tell you how fast you really were!"

Person A: "And how does that guy sound like, when you play with him?"

Drummer: "Something like plop plop plop plop - but very fast"

Person A: "Great! Tell me, when you two guys will be playing a gig and I'll be there!"




lol - sorry, just had that thought when I was sitting in my pracitse room playing on a pad... thought that maybe someone here might laugh about it.

[hungrypo]

i find that in order to achieve true "speed" on the drums, you must be able to think slow. but not really slow, big? is big the word? you have to be able to think broad. in order to play really fast 32nd and 64th notes, you have to really be aware of the whole note, and the half note. speed is a by-product of good time and good technique. if you have a good sense of time - if you can feel time at all levels (from whole note to 16th note and beyond), then you'll be able to play time at all levels (including the smallest, fastest notes). there is only one speed, and that is what you must try to master.

[KLittle123]

honestly i dont understand this pretty much every single person i know thinks that youre "insane" from just being fast i find that technique and style is more important than speed by a long shot whats so great about speed besides its fast? i can understand being fast and technical at the same time is good becasue youve practised it but only being able to go fast is another thing .. i just dont understand why peoples fixation is on speed.
Here's my opinion--It doesn't matter, AT ALL! IT's just for bragging rights, that's how it all works in my close-knit drumming group in my area. I'm the one that doesn't give a crap about speed, but everyone and there brother in my area are like "OH MY GOD, I"M SOOO UBER FAST, I"M GOD!" Really it's just quite irritating.

[Chip]

Here's my opinion--It doesn't matter, AT ALL! IT's just for bragging rights, that's how it all works in my close-knit drumming group in my area. I'm the one that doesn't give a crap about speed, but everyone and there brother in my area are like "OH MY GOD, I"M SOOO UBER FAST, I"M GOD!" Really it's just quite irritating.
Amen to that. I was at a 'gig' (I'll say gig so I sound more important) and there was another drummer, he played mostly quads and only single strokes, all at the same volume... but apparently he was so much better than me. And hearing "Oh, that guys fast, he's pretty good ay?"..... That just makes me laugh now.

[balboa]

Because its impressive.
Because it takes a long time to acheive through hard work.
Because quarter notes are boring.
Because speed is a means to express musicality.
Because youre an entertainer.


for one i dont feel 1/4 notes are boring. 1/4 notes can be played at 250 bpm!!! wouldnt that be fast? speed is only one "means to express musicality", and your not an "entertainer" you are a "drummer" speed can also be achieved long before "controlled speed" can be. to the common viewer, speed is the only barometer for the common viewer to rate/grade a drummer. when in all actuality, speed is the least important. control,technique,imagination and feel are a much more important "means to express musicality"

[neilpscuz]

Because its impressive.
Because it takes a long time to acheive through hard work.
Because quarter notes are boring.
Because speed is a means to express musicality.
Because youre an entertainer.

Depends on how it's used
somewhat agree
umm.....no
To a degree
I'm a musician.....not an entertainer, if you are entertained by my music great.

Santana not good ? HAHAHAHAHAH thats a good one !! I suppose Buddy Rich is a piker, WHOOO HOO ahahahahahaha.

[SAINTDRUMS]

I'm a firm believer in the following statement - QUALITY, NOT QUANTITY....
Speed may impress people in certain circles, but I feel that other aspects of drumming deserve attention.

[tmc]

Hi Everyone.

I guess it';s not so much that speed matters as it is that it is one aspect of our playing that can be measured.

-Michael

[RudimentalDrummer]

honestly i dont understand this pretty much every single person i know thinks that youre "insane" from just being fast i find that technique and style is more important than speed by a long shot whats so great about speed besides its fast? i can understand being fast and technical at the same time is good becasue youve practised it but only being able to go fast is another thing .. i just dont understand why peoples fixation is on speed.

The very Basics of Drumming (where Rudiments is concern) is .... playing it using the Correct Hand Techniques...to get the Right Dynamics & Sound...through Proper Control of the hands..........and it has be played slowly for beginners especially to get all the above right in the 1st place.

As we practice & practice to get the above right....then what ? - Then comes speed which takes time to developed....maybe years.....This is ultimately what every drummers wants to achieved too....It's part & parcel of Drumming, it's an aim, and every drummer should strive to be there one day.....but takes plenty of patient & hardwork....

I've seen many drummers in my country who can do all the 40 Rudiments, but not many can make it sound ... Perfect with Good Dynamics and Speed.

SPEED is the Secondary & Ultimate Goal and it's useless & pointless to acquire speed (it will sound crappy), if a Drummer did not get the Basic correct in the 1st place, doing & practicing it correctly with patient and slowly ... achieving a primary objective of -- Dyanamics & Control. This takes lots of patient & hardwork on the part of the Drummer.

[low-tech]

Groove is easy to identify and isn't abstract. It either grooves or it doesn't. It is simply the difference between good drumming and mediocre drumming. It is hard to put in words what groove is, but it indisputible when you hear it. It isn't narrow-minded at all! Nor is it one dimensional, because EVERY genre of music can groove. Groove is probably the one common thread that all music can share. Groove is so multi-dimensional it isn't even funny! Whatever Groove is, you know right away that it is grooving.


its subjective. thats all im saying. people interpret what it is differently. it can exist in the realm of preconcieved notions and used to the effect as a validation of taste and personal opinion.

[RudimentalDrummer]

[QUOTE=beatsMcGee]i agree with stu when he talks about musicality and such, but a big part of that is also being able to express what ever it is that your thinking... and to do so you will need chops and speed... not saying that you should just hit things randomly as fast as you can that would be stupid... speed must be VERY CONTROLLED and CLEAN to sound good and be inpressive... and you cant go overboard with it.. you must have taste when you use your speed and only to enhance the song, and never hinder the groove.... that is when speed is important... ( i mean fills would be boring if they were all really slow) you can have pocket and groove and still display your speed when apropriate..

QUOTE]

What you've quoted is true, but not every drummer can do what you have quoted (even if he practice very hard for years each day) - It takes a VERY EXPERIENCE PROFESSIONAL DRUMMER to be able to do this with EASE......and I know I'm correct here. One have to be very exposed here.

Tough lol !

[RudimentalDrummer]

its subjective. thats all im saying. people interpret what it is differently. it can exist in the realm of preconcieved notions and used to the effect as a validation of taste and personal opinion.

No two Drummers are alike as we all knows. But when you put 2 drummers together - doing exactly the same thing (a simple groove/rythmn) - what is subjective now becomes affirmative...that one Groove and the the other don't....or one is just more groovy/better than the other.....

When we talk about grooving, we talk about overall sound, the well orchestrated drumming as a whole the drummer puts into the song.

[LimaBeans]

i agree with stu when he talks about musicality and such, but a big part of that is also being able to express what ever it is that your thinking... and to do so you will need chops and speed... not saying that you should just hit things randomly as fast as you can that would be stupid... speed must be VERY CONTROLLED and CLEAN to sound good and be inpressive... and you cant go overboard with it.. you must have taste when you use your speed and only to enhance the song, and never hinder the groove.... that is when speed is important... ( i mean fills would be boring if they were all really slow) you can have pocket and groove and still display your speed when apropriate..



I'll second that, and I'll put further emphasis on it. Before I say anything else, I would like to say that you shouldn't let speed dictate the way you play FOR a song. Play what sounds best, whether it's quarter notes or 32nd notes. Sometimes 16th notes at high-tempos fit the song better that lower-valued notes.

Speed doesn't matter for some styles (easy listening, laid back funk, country, etc.), but it DOES matter for other styles (punk, metal, up-tempo jazz, gospel funk, etc.). In order for me to express my musicality to the fullest in my style (up-tempo pop rock/indie), I need to have decently fast hands. It adds to variety when you can play and control 16th notes or 16th note triplets in an up-tempo song. The next thing I'll probaly hear is the thing about "it's not the number of notes, but the space inbetween...". Very true, but it's also good to have space inbetween sets of 16th and 32nd notes. I can invision many drum parts that I want to play (for my song (that fit)), but I just cannot do some of them.

There's a song my band has been working on recently. My hands can keep up with all of the cool intros and what-not, but for once I saw the need for a constant stream of 16th notes on bass drum. I could hear it play in my head, it sounded good, but I don't have the speed or control with my left foot, so I just stuck with a cliche beat that fits the song...but not as well as the double bass would fit it.

However, I see no need to make speed a part of your regular practice routine unless just want it for fun (that's what playing drums is all about...isn't it?). I can play faster (hands, but nothing spectacular) than most drummers I meet gigging, but my speed was gained through being forced to push myself hard during rehearsel to stay with the song. I've never really devoted much time at all to speed. If you need speed, you'll get fast by playing your style, If you don't need speed, you won't get speed by playing your style (in which case it doesn't matter).

[low-tech]

No two Drummers are alike as we all knows. But when you put 2 drummers together - doing exactly the same thing (a simple groove/rythmn) - what is subjective now becomes affirmative...that one Groove and the the other don't....or one is just more groovy/better than the other.....

When we talk about grooving, we talk about overall sound, the well orchestrated drumming as a whole the drummer puts into the song.

one can only decide which drummer is better, its all interpretation. just because you dont approve of someones playing doesnt make it of a lesser musical integrity than your own.

[RudimentalDrummer]

one can only decide which drummer is better, its all interpretation. just because you dont approve of someones playing doesnt make it of a lesser musical integrity than your own.

No, first of all, I have no right to approved or disapproved of anyones playing style....and they can play any way they wants. Sure, anyone who have a listening ear can make direct comparison of which is better (especially so if you are a drummer yourself) - even if they both Groove....

But the main thing here is - To Groove....and it doesn't mean that - as long as a person can play a Rythmn or Rudiments and keep time ... means it will indefinetely Groove.

However admit the facts too - that to "Groove" require applying the Right Drumming Techniques even in it's simplest form.

Go to Berklee or any Music Schools and tell these people - "It's only their own interpretation of how to do certain things eg. in Drumming ... why must there be certain techniques drummers need to know, practice & apply initially in the course of basic drumming....is it because they think it is of a lesser musical integrity if one do not follow so? .....NO ....but 1st get the basic stuff right before you talk about Groove.

[low-tech]

No, first of all, I have no right to approved or disapproved of anyones playing style....and they can play any way they wants. Sure, anyone who have a listening ear can make direct comparison of which is better (especially so if you are a drummer yourself) - even if they both Groove....

But the main thing here is - To Groove....and it doesn't mean that - as long as a person can play a Rythmn or Rudiments and keep time ... means it will indefinetely Groove.

However admit the facts too - that to "Groove" require applying the Right Drumming Techniques even in it's simplest form.

Go to Berklee or any Music Schools and tell these people - "It's only their own interpretation of how to do certain things eg. in Drumming ... why must there be certain techniques drummers need to know, practice & apply initially in the course of basic drumming....is it because they think it is of a lesser musical integrity if one do not follow so? .....NO ....but 1st get the basic stuff right before you talk about Groove.

its all interpretation dude,the world of drumming didnt start at bereklee music school. thats the place to go to be certified in teaching, a proffesional session,studio guy and above all to learn etc. its not like they are the mullahs of what constitutes "musicality" "groove" or not

what are the "right drumming techniques"? can you do them all?, did god write them down as commandments on some form of religious documents i havent seen yet.

eye of the beholder, dude

[RudimentalDrummer]

what are the "right drumming techniques"? can you do them all?, did god write them down as commandments on some form of religious documents i havent seen yet.

eye of the beholder, dude

There are indeed Different Techniques be it on (1) Left Foot Hi-Hats, (2) Bass Drums & even different kinds of Hands Techniques on Hi-Hats, Crashing a Cymbal, Riding a Ride, Rudiments etc too many I guess. and I'm still in the learning process till todate. To me - Drumming is hard to Master.

I have to admit, there are probably many others that I've yet to learn, but as I go along in my lesson - I learn....and it makes a whole world of different.....cause it will make drumming sound much better indeed. I'm not as arrogrant as I am before, cause I know - there is still plenty of things in drumming for me to learn and acquire.

To some people, to be theoretical (Learning The Right Drumming Techniques) is to be detached and impractical (like you). But a bright social scientist once said, “There is nothing so practical as a "good theory”. And every successful doctor, engineer, and physicist would have to agree; They would be unable to practice their modern work without theories and models – ... ..... just like drumming here...and If anyone want to be good and ensure their drumming Groove - They have to 1st - Get the basic right - before they move on further into the art.

To me - this is a pre-requisite into good drumming....

[low-tech]

theory is not demonstratable fact. its all subjective. the right techniques today can be archaic tommorrow. music,drumming and the way we precieve it is constantly changing. there are ways to learn to be more skilled and effecient but that alone doesnt imply one who utilizes them understand "groove" or to be "musical".

just because alot of people can agree on what they think constitutes the depth and emotions of playing drums doesnt make it a uniform law. noone holds more virtue in this regard to assert this as a fact of life, noone is an authority and noones music is better,more virtuous than others. integrity means honestly and all the passion and feeling you put into a beat does not garentee others will precieve it as such. its just an opinion people share ultimately, however inform they may be,however much they seem "right".

this is the last time im gonna repeat the obvious.

[jarrod]

People have always wanted to be the fastest like the world fasest car, fastest bike and in music it is no diffrent, speed is also a great tool for showing off to people that dont play the drums like most crowds

why say speed is good or bad it what people want to be good at plus speed helps gain control you also have a bigger area to work in if you have realy fast hands and feet

[Stu_Strib]

theory is not demonstratable fact. its all subjective. .

Actually scientific theory IS demonstrable fact.

One of my pet-peeves is when people dismiss theory as not being fact.

From wikipedia's entry on theory:


A theory is a proposed description, explanation, or model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation.

[low-tech]

this is venturing towards the schooled vs unschooled debate as well. i know alot of drummers who never had a lesson,cant read from a sheet and dont ever care to. drummers who are good at certain things but not well rounded. they dont employ all these "right" techniques but non the less play good, play stuff i like, not every song but i still enjoy it. is that "groove"? possibly not the criteria for most here, but non the less i see some thing there that has merit. things can be different for people with different tastes, non-musicians can see things easily overlooked by the musician making the music, its all perception.

i myself am not well rounded, i simply dont do latin music,i mess around with swing but dont profess to know a thing about it. i play music most people here dont care for, this is fine with me. id like to improve in certain areas and am not really psyched on other styles and genres of music. but i never say they go without merit. i dont condemn latin music for instance, i dont say its worthless. i also have no sense of hand/foot independence, is that a right technique? is it requisite for the "musicality","groove" overall.

where do you want to set standards that others like myself wont live up to? where do you wanna draw the line? to only do so would employ your personal likes and dislikes. music is an art, not a science

not everything is so black and white

[RudimentalDrummer]

this is venturing towards the schooled vs unschooled debate as well. i know alot of drummers who never had a lesson,cant read from a sheet and dont ever care to. drummers who are good at certain things but not well rounded. they dont employ all these "right" techniques but non the less play good, play stuff i like, not every song but i still enjoy it. is that "groove"? possibly not the criteria for most here, but non the less i see some thing there that has merit. things can be different for people with different tastes, non-musicians can see things easily overlooked by the musician making the music, its all perception.

i myself am not well rounded, i simply dont do latin music,i mess around with swing but dont profess to know a thing about it. i play music most people here dont care for, this is fine with me. id like to improve in certain areas and am not really psyched on other styles and genres of music. but i never say they go without merit. i dont condemn latin music for instance, i dont say its worthless. i also have no sense of hand/foot independence, is that a right technique? is it requisite for the "musicality","groove" overall.

where do you want to set standards that others like myself wont live up to? where do you wanna draw the line? to only do so would employ your personal likes and dislikes. music is an art, not a science

not everything is so black and white

I'm actually not really talking about schooled & unschooled here...just that it is a prequisite for Drummers to know the very Basic Drumming Techniques if he ever wants to excel in the future - This is not that difficult to understand with proper demonstration and explaination. Drumming Notations are not really that difficult and is easy to understand - and yes .... most drummers need not read Music Sheets when playing (unless of course say eg. in an Orchestra or Big Band)....I'm not implying that a Drummer has to be able to read well and go through Music in Depth to be exceptionally good.

But do believed, that all these Good Drummers out there, does adopt certain right techniques and practice hard on these to be where they are today my bro.

It's like pre-school, learning the Basic International English Language from a very young age in school. How well a kid grew up communicating/using this particular language depends on himself - but - at least he must knows & must be taught the Basics in order to communicate well or what he wants to do with it in the future. The same goes with any other things that we learned eg. Music ---- whether in Guitar, Organ, Voilin, Drumming for instance all have it's Fundamentals that we all have to learn & know before we think of improvising and made improvements on it - based on our own set of thinking/talent.

Talking about perception - It is perceived and well acknowledge by many that Music is an Art and if they wants to learn Music - they start from Basics...isn't it.

Most Drummers & Musician favour some form of Music than others...eg. Some prefer Rock than Jazz or Funk more that Latin whatever.....This is normal...including me. However, I actually force myself to learn to appreciate other form of Music Style and learn it the hard way - Why? .... Cause firstly there is more good than harm, learning more styles of Music allows me to fuse them into something new (if I have the potential - which I don' have yet now)...like Fusion. BUt in order for me to be able to do that - I've to learn all these Basics...If they are not there for me - I would have lesser ideas to comes up with good improvision....This is my belief.....added to this - it is difficult for me nevertheless - cause I do not have the vast experience & exposure Professional have....I accept my limitation. - My answer is therefore "Yes" - it is a pre-requisite for Musical Groove.

We do not set standards too cause in fact we learn from those (so-call by you) Basic Standard in Musical Drumming....which is actually call Fundamentals Of Drummings. Everyone here can live up to it...cause all they need is a willingness to learn and accept but most importantly to BELIEVED that the Fudamentals are very important for his own growth in drumming -

Accepting the facts that there are Fundamentals in Drumming & also in anything is not our personal likes and dislikes. It is because Music is indeed an art so is Drumming, and thus it is a Science too.

Gene Krupa has a book published in 1946 call - "The Science Of Drumming"
http://www.gkrp.net/tsodbook.html

[thegatekeeper]

When I was a few years younger I always wanted to be the worlds fastest drummer. After listening to the worlds fastest drummer, I learned one thing. Speed isn't everything, there's one thing that drummers forget. The main reason a drummer is there is not show off speed, it's to keep a groove and keep that groove in time. Do you see drummers ripping the heads off their shells, yes you do, but the ones get the gigs, are the ones that know how to groove. Honestly turn on the radio what sells groove, why did alot of producers start using drum machines, not only is it cheaper, but you don't have the hassle of an a-hole drummer. The moment drummers start stepping in other peoples shoes they will understand why a drummer who is fast and all over the place is bad. For example, when I mentioned the world's fastest drummer I really meant the world's fastest drummer jotan afanador. Up to not too long ago he was the fastest in the world, I went to his site, and heard some of his drumming, it's missing groove. Groove, groove, groove.
1st Time
2nd Groove
3rd Learn to read music

I started learning to play drums when I was in the seventh grade. We had a school band led by a drummer named Michael Grillo. I was looking for a coach because I had a big live cd recording and I wanted to be inshape. After almost ten years I find him in the white pages, and called him up. I always was intimidated by him, not because he was a cock, he was indeed one of the most humble men I met, but because I thought we soooo good. So he came over my house, and I asked him to play something on the drums. He played one of the simplest beats ever. Boom -PA ----pa-pa Boom------PA. That was it. He hit the toms individually and said nice kit. When I got to the drums I played something really fast that didn't sound too bad, could of done it a little better had he not been there. I asked him "Mr. Grillo why am I intimidated by you?" He said "Because when you were young you had fresh ears." Instead of a coach what he did was give me a moral lesson. He started saying that he had auditioned for some big jazz guitarist, and there were ton of other players 10x better than him. He went in, the guy gave him some music, and he played straight through. He got the gig, not because he was the greatest player, but because no one else knew how to read.

And for the guy who mentioned how man always wants to have the biggest or the fastest whatever. There's one thing alot of us are forgetting. Music is an art, you never see painters or poets, or writers or any other type or artisan every say WHO CAN PAINT A MASTERPIECE THE FASTEST OUT OF ALL OF US! For these reasons, is why drummers are frowned upon with musicians, "drummers, aren't musicians, they're drummers." Let's try to change that

-thegatekeeper

[hateplow]

There is nothing like (good) speed metal drumming. I fully appreciate 50 year old Jazz drummers who "groove" as well, but I would much rather watch someone who has the element of blistering speed in their repetoir. (Gene Hoglan, Sean Reinart) Those guys have plenty of "groove" and technical ability, but are talented enough to ALSO be lightning fast and metronome accurate.
Speed and groove don't have to be mutually exclusive.

[RudimentalDrummer]

There is nothing like (good) speed metal drumming. I fully appreciate 50 year old Jazz drummers who "groove" as well, but I would much rather watch someone who has the element of blistering speed in their repetoir. (Gene Hoglan, Sean Reinart) Those guys have plenty of "groove" and technical ability, but are talented enough to ALSO be lightning fast and metronome accurate.
Speed and groove don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I totally agree with you - Speed & Groove are not totally Exclusive of each other but Complimentary.

Sign.nnn..The only problem here is - To be able to come up with Speed compromising the right sound & dynamics & control require ... alot of Persistance & miost importantly .....Patient. A patient to start slow and knowing & accepting the facts that...it probably takes years to achieve perfect chops.....so true.

PS: Bro hateplow...I've never truly appreciated Metal Drumming...but now....been taught to play Double Bass Drumming ... not easy too yeah..kekeke !

Whoever says - Drumming is easy to master - Think Again !

[RudimentalDrummer]

After listening to the worlds fastest drummer, I learned one thing. Speed isn't everything,

The main reason a drummer is there is not show off speed, it's to keep a groove and keep that groove in time. The moment drummers start stepping in other peoples shoes they will understand why a drummer who is fast and all over the place is bad.

Music is an art. For these reasons, is why drummers are frowned upon with musicians, "drummers, aren't musicians, they're drummers." Let's try to change that

-thegatekeeper

Hi Bro gatekeeper

Yes you are correct when you say "Speed Isn't Everything"...but Speed is "Indeed Something" too...and Speed is definetely not "Nothing".

Playing fast is definetely not bad and in fact is good, if we are able to acquite that. - I believed those Speed-Drummers No.1 priority is on "Building Speed" due to the Drumming Category they are competing for I guess....It's not a Groove Competition...It's a Speed Competiton...They might be able to play well with good control of both hands too (I think). I'm sure we can all understand their situation.

IMPORTANT: - you quoted "drummers, aren't musicians, they're drummers." Let's try to change that....Gosh.hh can't believed what you just said that..OMG !

"Drummers Are Musician" my bro...Now.ww you try to remember that ! ....kekekeke !..Cheers !

Your Friend Mr. Grill ... "He got the gig, not because he was the greatest player, but because no one else knew how to read." ...Yes...he didn't get grill, but the rest got roasted - because they think your friend is a Musician simply because he could read so he got a upper advantage over the rest....but of course it really depends on what type of gigs (suitablility). Nevertherless he was indeed perceived as a Musician all because he could read very well - so does many drummers read very well - and they are Musicians!.

[hevy kevy]

I think that speed matters to the masses in a way that it shows"that guy put a LOT of time and effort into his playing" The general crowd is not always impressed by how much finese you have or how tasty you play, but if you can make your hands blurry, WOW.
I guess I am thinking of who it matters to, the crowd? I don't think drummers worry too much about who is faster, or do they?

[RudimentalDrummer]

I I don't think drummers worry too much about who is faster, or do they?

No Drummers don't worry about whoever is faster,but is proud of the Other Drummer Achievement in that particular area.

[thegatekeeper]

Hi Bro gatekeeper

Yes you are correct when you say "Speed Isn't Everything"...but Speed is "Indeed Something" too...and Speed is definetely not "Nothing".

Playing fast is definetely not bad and in fact is good, if we are able to acquite that. - I believed those Speed-Drummers No.1 priority is on "Building Speed" due to the Drumming Category they are competing for I guess....It's not a Groove Competition...It's a Speed Competiton...They might be able to play well with good control of both hands too (I think). I'm sure we can all understand their situation.

IMPORTANT: - you quoted "drummers, aren't musicians, they're drummers." Let's try to change that....Gosh.hh can't believed what you just said that..OMG !

"Drummers Are Musician" my bro...Now.ww you try to remember that ! ....kekekeke !..Cheers !

Your Friend Mr. Grill ... "He got the gig, not because he was the greatest player, but because no one else knew how to read." ...Yes...he didn't get grill, but the rest got roasted - because they think your friend is a Musician simply because he could read so he got a upper advantage over the rest....but of course it really depends on what type of gigs (suitablility). Nevertherless he was indeed perceived as a Musician all because he could read very well - so does many drummers read very well - and they are Musicians!.

Just to make a point, have you ever been in a band and during rehearsel all of a sudden the guitarist and keyboardist or someone start talking about music, like change the Cmajor to a Gmajor7add9 and your just there waiting and watching hoping they might actually say something to you. I say this because I've played in wedding bands, cover bands, church etc etc, and I know that most musicians as everyone else calls themselves think that us as drummers are the stupid jocks of the band. Thats what I meant when I wrote

"For these reasons, is why drummers are frowned upon with musicians, "drummers, aren't musicians, they're drummers." Let's try to change that"

I'm a drummer and by all means I love my drums, but let me give you a perfect example of why speed doesn't mean almost nothing. Take Steve Gadd, one of the most affluential drummers of our time. I have never seen him take speed to the next level such as the players mentioned here. Like play as fast as "the fast" drummers. Yet he is the most recorded drummer of all time. This is what took me sooo long to understand and now I finally do. In a contemporary pop/rock radio friendly song, who takes the solo's if there are any? Most likely the guitarist. We are left in the dark and the guitarist's take all the glory. But then again their not taking the glory, as a team this is what we do as a band, to make things work and entertain. Take a car for example, let's say your going to buy a car, what's the first 2 things on your list, engine and tranny. But I gurantee if the cv joints are bad, your car ain't moving even if it has a viper engine in it. My point, we drummers are assumed as human metronomes, or groove instruments. Even our friendly partners in crime bass players, in pop music all they do the majority of the time is lock in with the bass drum and accentuate the melody. Done. A friend of mine a bass player, went in the studio to do a session for the first time. The lady gave him a lead sheet. He started grooving on the sheet. They stopped the recording and told him point blank. "Keep it simple." People don't want to hear you doing 32nd at 200bpm with your right toe, they want to here melodies and harmonies, and a solid back beat.

-thegatekeeper

[RudimentalDrummer]

Bro GateKeeper

Yes I've been in a Band when I was much younger during my Army days, for now ...I just go for Jamming Session to enjoy myself and also to meet all the Musician in my country on a Weekend.

When the guitarist and keyboardist or someone start talking about music, like changing the Cmajor to a Gmajor7add9 and your just there waiting and watching hoping they might actually say something to you...is common - That doesn't mean we as a Drummer are the stupid jock of the Band......It simply means there is no changes to be made at the Drummer part...I mean be positive....anyway we are part of the Band and we are Musicians.

Whether or not Steve Gadd ...one of the most affluent Drummer ever take speed to the next level or not does not meant that - Speed is unimportant to a Drummer. As you mentioned - Steve is the most recorded drummer of all time so I'm sure Steve Gadd can too.....just that maybe he deem not appropriate to do it for reasons in those recordings or whatever.

I've been to Simon Phillip Clinics too.....and his hands are real-fast too...but I won't use that to justify that - Speed is thus very very important here because of that.

In a contemporary pop song - it's not necessary for a Drummer to do a Very Fast Solo. In rock radio who takes the solo's if there are any? Most likely the guitarist - Yes. but we are also not left in the dark ... there are countless of Rock Drummers doing very fast Solos and took their glories too. Not that the Drummers doesn't stands out - but it really depends on the Style of Music being played.

That's the reason, why when a Drummer is good...they move into Jazz. Jazz is a Show-Off Music...Everyone in the Group havs a chance to Flare....but they better be good at it. There are many good Jazz Drummers who play Dynamically and Fast too with Good Control.

You quote:--- Take a car for example, let's say your going to buy a car, what's the first 2 things on your list, engine and tranny. But I gurantee if the cv joints are bad, your car ain't moving even if it has a viper engine in it.

I'm in the vehicle component business actually and talking about CV Joints (Constant Velocity Joints) .... If the CV Joints are bad...a car will still move actually ...just harder for the person to control...that's about it.....but ok....I do get your point here-

A better example would be this - - All Vehicles move as long as it has an Engine (Very Fast & Furious, Fast or Slow) - But not every Vehicle can move fast unless you have a Viper Engine as in your example - Than Get a Viper Engine or some more powerful engine.

What you mentioned is true - "Keep it simple." People don't want to hear you doing 32nd at 200bpm with your right toe, they want to hear melodies and harmonies, and a solid back beat.....So, there is a time and place for what you're going to play.

Wanna show-off plenty of your chops & Solos - go Jazz not Pop or Rock.

--------------------------------------------------------

My Bro, I can't play fast neither (say about Very Fast)...though I've tried practicing Rudiments every night but I've seen and heard Very Fast & Good Chops with Perfect Dynamics & Control.....This is what motivates me and made me believed that - - - SPEED DOES MATTERS to a Drummer.....and it does takes alot of Hardwork with proper Stick Control on the part of the Drummer. ...it takes many many years for a drummer to developed chops to that kind of level.....It's not an overnight kind of thing......How many can endure that kind of preseverence...not many.

[low-tech]

beyond the other stuff ive been complaining about. i have 2 problems with this thread.



1>it goes on the assumption that the people only recognizes speed as the end all of the musical depth and skill of a drummer.

its simply not true. DONT underestimate the fans, the non musicians. some people like flash, some like a solid jam,some a well composed,stripped down song that memorable and that they can dance to. some like a loud as hell,face melting musical piledriver. they look for different things in music that defeats the notion that speed is king. people know bonham and buddy rich solos, they know the guys who defy physics, but not every drummer has to fill thier shoes to be comfortable and appreciated as a part of a band that generally does well. who here wants to live at thier standard?. i respect what alot of great drummers do but i dont want to play like them and i dont want to take a 2 hour solos of mind destroying bombast. its not my style

2>drummers arent treated as equals in the band, not recognized as fellow musicians.

ive never felt this way, some bands i feel like im treated like a machine with endless practices, but thats a challenge not an insult. actually since we drummers are few in number as compared to other musicians we usually have alot of sway in the bands direction. ive felt ok in the past 10 years of bands as a drummer, most problems i had with former bands was stuff outside the music, the personalities and so forth.

captain kirk,spock,the doctor all those dudes cant do a thing without scotty manning the internal functions of the enterprise. they cant beam anywhere, the ship cant get anywhere, nothing. we are all like scotty. the foundation.

[RudimentalDrummer]

To sum up - Speed is Important...but Not The Most Important.
If attainable....nevertheless - it's a good thing to have.

[RudimentalDrummer]

Groove has nothing to do with the Speed a Drummer is Playing.

You can nevertheless Groove while playing it slow.
You can also Groove while playing Fast (which is harder to achieved generally).

At whichever speed you choose...do it with Proper Timing, Dynamic and Control.....Practicing chops slowly initially but with patient ... is indeed an enabling process towards Dynamical Speed Drumming.

I remember a very nice quote from Toyota & would like to share it with all my bros here in DrummerWorld. It goes something like this :-

It's Impossible - Says Reason
It's Tough - Says Experience
It's Painful - Says Pride
Try - Says Dreams

The Challenge - To Bring A Dream To Life !

[thegatekeeper]

agree with that speed is important but not the most important. And like you said rudimentdrummer, whenver you see a drummer shredding on a kit, yeah your right it does give you a sense to go on and try harder, and that was my point also about the jazz fusion but also to a point.

[sloppyn9ne]

honestly i dont understand this pretty much every single person i know thinks that youre "insane" from just being fast i find that technique and style is more important than speed by a long shot whats so great about speed besides its fast? i can understand being fast and technical at the same time is good becasue youve practised it but only being able to go fast is another thing .. i just dont understand why peoples fixation is on speed.

well if i saw someone play inverted cheeses at a sixtuplet meter ant 320 bpm i would probably crap my self.

[mattsmith]

When I was a few years younger I always wanted to be the worlds fastest drummer. After listening to the worlds fastest drummer, I learned one thing. Speed isn't everything, there's one thing that drummers forget. The main reason a drummer is there is not show off speed, it's to keep a groove and keep that groove in time. Do you see drummers ripping the heads off their shells, yes you do, but the ones get the gigs, are the ones that know how to groove. Honestly turn on the radio what sells groove, why did alot of producers start using drum machines, not only is it cheaper, but you don't have the hassle of an a-hole drummer. The moment drummers start stepping in other peoples shoes they will understand why a drummer who is fast and all over the place is bad. For example, when I mentioned the world's fastest drummer I really meant the world's fastest drummer jotan afanador. Up to not too long ago he was the fastest in the world, I went to his site, and heard some of his drumming, it's missing groove. Groove, groove, groove.
1st Time
2nd Groove
3rd Learn to read music

I started learning to play drums when I was in the seventh grade. We had a school band led by a drummer named Michael Grillo. I was looking for a coach because I had a big live cd recording and I wanted to be inshape. After almost ten years I find him in the white pages, and called him up. I always was intimidated by him, not because he was a cock, he was indeed one of the most humble men I met, but because I thought we soooo good. So he came over my house, and I asked him to play something on the drums. He played one of the simplest beats ever. Boom -PA ----pa-pa Boom------PA. That was it. He hit the toms individually and said nice kit. When I got to the drums I played something really fast that didn't sound too bad, could of done it a little better had he not been there. I asked him "Mr. Grillo why am I intimidated by you?" He said "Because when you were young you had fresh ears." Instead of a coach what he did was give me a moral lesson. He started saying that he had auditioned for some big jazz guitarist, and there were ton of other players 10x better than him. He went in, the guy gave him some music, and he played straight through. He got the gig, not because he was the greatest player, but because no one else knew how to read.

And for the guy who mentioned how man always wants to have the biggest or the fastest whatever. There's one thing alot of us are forgetting. Music is an art, you never see painters or poets, or writers or any other type or artisan every say WHO CAN PAINT A MASTERPIECE THE FASTEST OUT OF ALL OF US! For these reasons, is why drummers are frowned upon with musicians, "drummers, aren't musicians, they're drummers." Let's try to change that

-thegatekeeper

Hey man, welcome to Drummerworld. With respect, this fastest drummer discussion has occured 6.5 million times on this forum. For my sake, please perform a search on the subject.

In fact if you want, feel free to find the posts where I elaborate in detail. FYI, what you are saying constitutes no great ephiphany for us, although you are free to say what you want with whatever modicum of humilty you desire (gatekeeper).

But I would like to say that your comparison to fast drumming and fast painting is a weak one at best, and is of little contextual merit. Ironically, it is not even entirely true. Jackson Pollack's greatest breakthrough came about through a burst of anger and frustration from having to honor a commission he felt provided too short a time frame. That's essentially when drip and splatter painting was devised, with the commission providing some of the most rapidly produced masterworks of all time.

Interestingly enough, it was these paintings that appeared in Life Magazine, established Pollack as a household name, and are now considered masterpieces.

I agree with the reading issues. Too many guys my age fall short in that regard.

Again, welcome to Drummerworld.

[dea]

Everything has its place. Just don't assume that because you have a fast song you must play fast. There are many cases where actually cutting the speed of the drums can help drive the music forward. It depends on the song.

I have heard some recent metal band variations where the tune was saturated with double bass drum. In several cases, these fast moving double bass drums did not add anything to the song except unecessary complexity.

BUT... If you like that then go for it. Its all about what sounds good to you.

[stevedrum]

In my opinion speed is good as it will widen your options, to explain myself being able to do sixteens with one hand at a certain speed and being constant will let your left hand free to do something else. This is just to do an example, it can go much wider than this.

[nebula821]

To further kill the dead horse, I think that people have sort of a prejudice about the mention of "speed" in the context of drumming. I think people equate it with being loud and basic sometimes. I strive to be faster because I want to play really tastefull beats and fills at a lower volume that are subtle. That's always been impressive to me, as opposed to the "death metal" type of speed, which also has it's place if you dig that.

[aydee]

To further kill the dead horse, I think that people have sort of a prejudice about the mention of "speed" in the context of drumming. I think people equate it with being loud and basic sometimes. I strive to be faster because I want to play really tastefull beats and fills at a lower volume that are subtle. That's always been impressive to me, as opposed to the "death metal" type of speed, which also has it's place if you dig that.

speed = agility = possibilities = coordination= control = creativity = musicality. Q.E.D

[King Of Drums]

Well to most non-drummers and to beginner drummers speed is the main thing that makes them judge how good someone is or not. I honestly think speed is very important. You should always be growing as a drummer and therefore your speed should grow as well. I don't think you need to exclusively work on speed for hours a day though, that is going overboard.

More speed = more things that you can play, 32nd note fills etc. Some grooves just don't sound right when they are not up to speed either like sambas and bossas etc. Overall speed just adds to your playing musically, gives you better control of the sticks, more options, enhanced creativity, there's nothing wrong with it.

[dea]

In the purist sense of the word, speed is far less important than dynamics because speed will not make your playing sound musical, whereas dynamics will.

However, you must work on speed ( you decide how much ) since it does implicitly build strength and control.

What I find interesting is the evolution of Metal and how these very fast beats have developed into extremely flat/monotone sounding. But they sound great in the context of th Black/Viking/Death/Gore Metal style of music.

[Adam]

It is said so many times from teachers to students, and to me. No one really understands it, but I promise it is true:

It takes more talent and control to play at low levels and softly than loud and aggressive. This being said; play as fast as you can, but to really impress play soft and fast. Try playing those 200 bpm on your snare at 1-2 inch stick heights!

I completely disagree with this statement, though it's true to an extent. I think it's just that most of the time is spent neglecting soft playing, so no one practices it. If you practice both equal amounts you will find it much easier to play soft. High volumes requires more muscle to be developed, which takes the most time period. Low volumes takes control, and focus, but you do not have to wait for the muscle to develop, which is really what takes the most time out of anything.

[somexone75]

I personally think speed is everything also. It will just give you more fill options that you could do, and still have time to get back to the main rhythm on time. It just adds flexibility.

If you look at a lot of Ska songs they are pretty much nothing but speed, so it is looking like speed is the future of drumming.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I personally think speed is everything also. It will just give you more fill options that you could do, and still have time to get back to the main rhythm on time. It just adds flexibility.

If you look at a lot of Ska songs they are pretty much nothing but speed, so it is looking like speed is the future of drumming.

Well no...

Surely accuracy and tone are more important. Play fast with no accuracy and you'll sound sloppy and you'll have terrible tone. Speed isn't the basis of anything other than itself, whereas accuracy and tone control IS the basis for all forms of drumming. Improved speed may be the ultimate result, but not necessarily the 'only' way of playing. There have been fast players since the beginning, and it's no more the future now than it was fifty years ago. Most players don't get remembered for their speed, they get remembered for their touch and tone. Elvin Jones, Philly Jo Jones, Tony Williams, Steve Gadd, John Bonham, Jeff Pocaro, Ringo Starr and even Jojo Mayer are players remembered for their touch. Whereas for pure speed I can only really think of Buddy Rich, who also had an individual sound and touch. Speed isn't necessarily musical; it has a place in music, but music isn't just about speed which seems to be what you're implying.

Much like music isn't about the notes you're playing. It's the arrangements and presentations of those notes.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

speed = agility = possibilities = coordination= control = creativity = musicality. Q.E.D

Creativity does not equate to musicality, nor speed to agility or even necessarily co-ordination to control. I disagree with pretty much everything you've said here. Surely co-ordination. agility and control equate to speed, rather than the other way around?

To further explain my point about creativity, new ideas don't necessarily sound musical. For instance, Thomas Lang's 'creative' methods of co-ordination. Doesn't sound musical to me and this seems to be somewhat of a consensus. Sure it's creative, but is it applicable? Musicality applies to applicability.

[Joe P]

Well, let me give my 2 cents on this. To be good, you should be able to play anything at a high or low tempo, and still be able to lock in to tempo. One of the things **practicing** at a high tempo can do is to help your on-the-mark fills. The more comfortable you are playing grooves at higher tempos, the tougher it is to do a fill and get around the drumset. So, in a sense, it is definitely a good thing to be able to play things faster.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I put it to all the speed players (and I don't have anything against speed per se) to try and play perfectly on tempo at 40BPM. You may be physically capable of it, but it's another matter altogether as to if you can do it or not.

The problem is, speed is the only objective measurement in music. Therefore it becomes a form of bean counting.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I put it to all the speed players (and I don't have anything against speed per se) to try and play perfectly on tempo at 40BPM. You may be physically capable of it, but it's another matter altogether as to if you can do it or not.

The problem is, speed is the only objective measurement in music. Therefore it becomes a form of bean counting.

I actually tend to agree with MFB but just to break his chops...

I play lots of fast stuff and I practice at 30 BPM quite regularly. It's MUCH harder than 40 BPM. Mike Mangini the WFD champ, got me into it again recently.

Also...Today with digital editing, tempo fluctuations and dynamic consistency are also absolutely measurable.

[ULTIMATEDRUMMER]

I think there's a point where speed is good and
getting much better dosen't really matter.
But, Coordination is a very gret thing to have witch can make u feel u hav more speed..

[the skin man]

Take all these things:

speed
power
precision
dynamics
four way independence
kit fluency
rhythmic fluency
reading
rudiments
repetoire
feel
creativity
musicality

Then imagine how much members of a band other than the drummer might appreciate them. In many cases, speed might be pretty far down on the list. That doesn't mean that it won't be appreciated, but the extent to which it is pretty much depends on the musical situation.


speed = agility = possibilities = coordination= control = creativity = musicality. Q.E.D

To me it seems like speed, agility, and coordination increase the possibilities, which increases the potential for creativity and musicality, but there can be still be a lot of musicality and creativity without all those things.

[Erik Lund]

Billy Higgins





That's all I'm gonna say.

Billy Higgins.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I actually tend to agree with MFB but just to break his chops...

I play lots of fast stuff and I practice at 30 BPM quite regularly. It's MUCH harder than 40 BPM. Mike Mangini the WFD champ, got me into it again recently.

Also...Today with digital editing, tempo fluctuations and dynamic consistency are also absolutely measurable.

Busting my chops with semantics, Jeff? Oh dear!

Hoping all is well in your household my friend.

[brennenlesser]

honestly i dont understand this pretty much every single person i know thinks that youre "insane" from just being fast i find that technique and style is more important than speed by a long shot whats so great about speed besides its fast? i can understand being fast and technical at the same time is good becasue youve practised it but only being able to go fast is another thing .. i just dont understand why peoples fixation is on speed.

I feel it's a matter of control over technique. If you got good technique and good control. you should be able to go fast.

People who aren't musicians just wanna see tricks and speed. That's why i hate drum solos lol

[brennenlesser]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ertQiT9xr9A

my playing

[dea]

Lots of speed, but I only caught a few seconds of anything musical. Everything else was what I call, "flat speed". Sorry, I'm not capping on you, but incorporate some dynamics in your flavor and you'll have my ear.

[the skin man]

For instance, Thomas Lang's 'creative' methods of co-ordination. Doesn't sound musical to me and this seems to be somewhat of a consensus. Sure it's creative, but is it applicable? Musicality applies to applicability.

A lot of it seems to be done for the sake of demonstrating that it can be done. It would be great to see that level of independence applied to Latin grooves and swing time, and much of it probably has, but still, the full potential of his level of four way independence probably has not been reached in a musical sense.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

A lot of it seems to be done for the sake of demonstrating that it can be done. It would be great to see that level of independence applied to Latin grooves and swing time, and much of it probably has, but still, the full potential of his level of four way independence probably has not been reached in a musical sense.

For the 'real deal' with the four-way co-ordination, Mangini is the way to go. But still the same argument applies. How much of it is actually useful? Playing a Bossa Nova requires great co-ordination, but playing a Bossa Nova also requires the SPIRIT of the Bossa Nova just as much. Music isn't about the notes that are being played.

Here's a good example of supreme musicality that I just discovered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNqob0epgKs

The first part of the video up until the song change. I may be physically capable (with enough practice) to play that on guitar, but I know that once I've physically learnt it, I'm still going to be a very long way from being able to play that piece well enough to perform it. My version would lack the emotion due to my comparative lack of physical skill. Just because you can play something (not that I can play this yet) does not mean that you can play it musically.

[brennenlesser]

Lots of speed, but I only caught a few seconds of anything musical. Everything else was what I call, "flat speed". Sorry, I'm not capping on you, but incorporate some dynamics in your flavor and you'll have my ear.

are you talking to me? I was only fooling around to test my camera sir. lol. I will be sure incorporate SOMETHING to win ur favor!

[dvbjamesd]

Why do you guys worry so much about technique, speed.. etc? When what it really will get you the gigs is your Time and Feel. However, that is after what Chick Corea once told me; Do you want to be a better Musician? Be a better Person. Drumming is more than Technique; is a life style.

[jjmason777]

Speed is good. Getting faster can only help you. BUT---that being said, I can't stand hearing 100 double-bass strokes per measure at any speed.
Just because you can play fast does not mean you should cram as many notes as possible into the space, you see?

[aydee]

Creativity does not equate to musicality, nor speed to agility or even necessarily co-ordination to control. I disagree with pretty much everything you've said here. Surely co-ordination. agility and control equate to speed, rather than the other way around?

To further explain my point about creativity, new ideas don't necessarily sound musical. For instance, Thomas Lang's 'creative' methods of co-ordination. Doesn't sound musical to me and this seems to be somewhat of a consensus. Sure it's creative, but is it applicable? Musicality applies to applicability.

Other than 'consensus on creativity' ( oxymoron, dont you think, ; 0 ), you raise a good point, and I hear you completely, MFB.

Applicability is a good word. I agree.

However, my simple submission here, minus the mathematics, is that as a drummer I feel speed is a necessary requisite in your arsenal ,to achieving the ability to express yourself .. or even applying yourself, musically.

Maybe it is the nature of the instrument....... hitting all that stuff laid out around you with some expression, passion, skill, and expertise

I disagree with a popular notion, that speed is non- musicial, frivilous, lacks depth,and does'nt apply to my music,so therefore, I dont need to learn/practice it.

..... I guess what I'm trying to say is that you gotta know your Kung-Fu to be truly non-violent......

I totally agree with the view that you don't need to be a chop-miester, drum-lord, Thomas Langish kind of character playing fast, clinical and emotionless music , to be a good, or musical, or creative drummer.( and here, I share your Lang view ).

but I do think you need to be, in principle, a Steve Gaddish kind of character who has the ability to play the simpler 'deep in the pocket grooves ' so beautifully with Paul Simon's 50 ways...

BECAUSE......

he also has the ability to fly with Chick Corea ( on Leprechaun) and explode with Steely Dan ( on Aja ).

I'm pretty sure you will say" Not necessarily! " and you would be right. Not necessary. But it helps

This is only my point of view, and not the holy grail, but I see too many musicians around me, myself included, very content with their skills levels, not wanting to push themselves further, to discover the possibilites that speed creates....one of them being

to enhance simplicity.

You are right that not everything new can be deemed creative, but it is the search for new things in your own playing, that make you grow into a better player

I think Victor Wooten said it best.. "its more vocabulary." You might not use the big words all the time, but the fact that you know them gives you more confidence using 'regular' words

All this said, your point about the spirit of the music being central to it all is bang-on.


.......... no thanks, I dont think I want to EVER hear Thomas Lang play ' Girl From Ipanema '

... or maybe even anything at all ; )

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Victor Wooten is another argument altogether. I hear no notes! I just hear noises!

Speed is a means to an end. My issue is that speed becomes the end and not the means, whereas competitions like WFD never claim to be musical and don't pretend that speed is music (which is absolutely fine in my book, no issue there) there are those who just watch, for instance, Joey Jordison and say 'yeah, he's the World's greatest drummer because he's so fast!' I don't understand that mindset and I believe that music only exists between the spaces, meaning that there needs to be other concepts at work other than raw speed. I can't listen to a machine gun and think that it's music (unless is some sort of avant-garde musique concrete, encompassing harmonic relationships between different calibres and barrel sizes etc).

Speed is a good creative tool. Tony Williams is an example of a fast drummer who happens to be music, the two need not be mutually exclusive, but if you were asked to name the key aspects of his playing, speed would only be one of five or six. Too many drummers seem to try and make speed their main creative tool and it just gets boring. It's the reason why drummers like Steve Gadd are still making a career after thirty years. There will usually be a faster guy, but groove is subjective, speed is not; and music is all about that subjectivity.

[aydee]

Victor Wooten is another argument altogether. I hear no notes! I just hear noises!

Speed is a means to an end. My issue is that speed becomes the end and not the means, whereas competitions like WFD never claim to be musical and don't pretend that speed is music (which is absolutely fine in my book, no issue there) there are those who just watch, for instance, Joey Jordison and say 'yeah, he's the World's greatest drummer because he's so fast!' I don't understand that mindset and I believe that music only exists between the spaces, meaning that there needs to be other concepts at work other than raw speed. I can't listen to a machine gun and think that it's music (unless is some sort of avant-garde musique concrete, encompassing harmonic relationships between different calibres and barrel sizes etc).

Speed is a good creative tool. Tony Williams is an example of a fast drummer who happens to be music, the two need not be mutually exclusive, but if you were asked to name the key aspects of his playing, speed would only be one of five or six. Too many drummers seem to try and make speed their main creative tool and it just gets boring. It's the reason why drummers like Steve Gadd are still making a career after thirty years. There will usually be a faster guy, but groove is subjective, speed is not; and music is all about that subjectivity.

I think we're on the same side of the debate. On Wooten,though, do listen to him playing Beatle's Norwegian Wood and Bach....

[the skin man]

For the 'real deal' with the four-way co-ordination, Mangini is the way to go. But still the same argument applies. How much of it is actually useful? Playing a Bossa Nova requires great co-ordination, but playing a Bossa Nova also requires the SPIRIT of the Bossa Nova just as much. Music isn't about the notes that are being played.

I haven't heard a huge amount of both, by I'd bet Thomas Lang beats Mangini in four way independence. With regard to the spirit of a particular style, that seems to be pretty much the same thing as feel, unless you're taking about coming up with a particular pattern that fits the song appropriatley, which I guess most would think of as "musicality". In that sense, coordination feeds musicality because a drummer might think of a groove that would work really well in a particular situation, but not be able to play it because he doesn't have enough independence. Speed seems to contribute to musicality less, but obviously it can make some contribution.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I'll hold by my belief that Mangini absolutely destroys Lang in four-way independence. I have my reasons for believing this, but they're not really for me to say. Co-ordination adds to your options, but in the same sentence, creativity is also about knowing your limits and playing within them just as much. If somebody isn't able to play a certain pattern, they might play an alternative to that pattern; which in my mind is just as creative and in fact more creative than playing the original.

[dea]

are you talking to me? I was only fooling around to test my camera sir. lol. I will be sure incorporate SOMETHING to win ur favor!

Again, my comments were constructive in nature. If I can immediately see, or hear what is happening, you've lost my interest. I want to be tricked, and surprised. I want to come back to a song after a while and say, "Whoa. What was that?! How did I miss that?!".

Don't ignore speed though. It has its placed when used strategically in a musical context. It is also one of several ways to achieve control of your sticks. But please, please, please don't just play, "flat fast". Add your special sauce in the form of dynamics so as to make it interesting musical and yours.

[Wile E. Coyote]

People who aren't musicians just wanna see tricks and speed.
That's completely false... Non-musicians want to hear MUSIC. If they want tricks they go to the circus.
Technique, speed and so one are just TOOLS to express a musical idea. If your idea is empty, it doesn't matter how fast you play it! If your idea is wonderful but slow, let's play together please, you proved to me that you can phrase.
There are no secrets to become a fast player. There are plenty to become a MUSICIAN. Speed makes no music by itself. But sometimes music needs speed! Be my guest then.
On Wooten,though, do listen to him playing Beatle's Norwegian Wood and Bach....
Norwegian wood --- oh... fantastic
Bach??????? Are you sure? I think we were discussing it all along the thread! Bach is not a matter of speed!
I love Wooten, because of his groove and his good taste in phrasing; absolutely not for his "Bach". Good technique, yes, amazing technique; and?

[DrumCritic]

well if you want to play a jazz tune at 300 bpm and you don't have speed, then you can't play it. if you want to play a heavy metal tune or a punk rock tune at 200 bpm and you don't have speed, then you can't play it.

speed expands your ability to play music. if you can play a ride cymbal at only a basic 150 bpm tempo, then your musical expression is limited to songs that go only 150 bpm or less. And if you try to play a 100 bpm solo break during a 200 bpm song, then you will take away much of the energy needed to drive the beat and feel of the song.

speed playing gives off an energy and feel that slow songs simply cannot reach (not saying that slow playing is bad. just saying that fast playing is good :) )

[burnthehero]

Speed only matters if you want it to.

[tomgrosset]

well if you want to play a jazz tune at 300 bpm and you don't have speed, then you can't play it. if you want to play a heavy metal tune or a punk rock tune at 200 bpm and you don't have speed, then you can't play it.

speed expands your ability to play music. if you can play a ride cymbal at only a basic 150 bpm tempo, then your musical expression is limited to songs that go only 150 bpm or less. And if you try to play a 100 bpm solo break during a 200 bpm song, then you will take away much of the energy needed to drive the beat and feel of the song.

speed playing gives off an energy and feel that slow songs simply cannot reach (not saying that slow playing is bad. just saying that fast playing is good :) )

Welcome to the drum forum DrumCritic... you just opened a can of worms. :)

But you make a good point. Speed expands our ability to express ourselves musically. All those critics can disagree all they want, but when it comes down to it, it makes you a better musician if you know how to apply it.

[foursticks]

That's where I'm at with my singles - before I wasn't ever too bothered about how fast my single strokes where, but now I'm at that stage where I can play up tempo jazz comfortably and now need single strokes coming up to speed so I can expand that music vocabulary especially in soloing.

To echo the bottom line: Speed is incredibly useful, but only when applied musically.

Also, does anyone not feel that ones style of drumming seems to become a bit more fluent when able to achieve higher speeds with ease?

[Late Bloomer]

I would like to be a lot faster than I am presently, but for me, I would rather hear a drummer who can really nail a hot groove with tasty fills in a hot band than watch a drummer play a ballistic solo. I really admire their skill level, but I get bored after about 1 minute of it. Give me a groove that you can't sit still listening to any day. There certainly is a place in drumming to entertain with speed, but it is not the most important thing. GROOVE is #1 as far as I am concerned.

[paramac]

A F(@#(ING MEN! A lot of these guys wont "get" Billy...That's not a mean spirited remark, it's is true..Drum sites and discussion boards are mostly populated by guys that ARE into speed and the more pyro technical aspects of drumming. Not that that is wrong, it is just the way it is..

Billy Higgins




That's all I'm gonna say.

Billy Higgins.

[foursticks]

I would like to be a lot faster than I am presently, but for me, I would rather hear a drummer who can really nail a hot groove with tasty fills in a hot band than watch a drummer play a ballistic solo. I really admire their skill level, but I get bored after about 1 minute of it. Give me a groove that you can't sit still listening to any day. There certainly is a place in drumming to entertain with speed, but it is not the most important thing. GROOVE is #1 as far as I am concerned.

At the end of the day, the depth of your technical ability only matters to what yourself want to achieve out of the music and what the music your playing calls for. Some are happy just sticking to grooves and steady tempos, whilst others might want to play music which calls for higher tempos and therefore need that technique to enable to them to play comfortably in that tempo range. It's all up to you.

[mattsmith]

A F(@#(ING MEN! A lot of these guys wont "get" Billy...That's not a mean spirited remark, it's is true..Drum sites and discussion boards are mostly populated by guys that ARE into speed and the more pyro technical aspects of drumming. Not that that is wrong, it is just the way it is..

Sorry man, but that's inaccurate. It's just repeated enough on other forums that a lot of well intentioned guys like yourself think it's true.

Actually you see more people on drum forums lathered up in a frenzy about the relentless control of speed on their every day lives, when no such onslaught actually exists past Joey /Travis fanboys, the metal guys who actually need it to play their music but constitute a very small over all base, and the uber fusion guys, whose base is smaller than the metal guys.

That's not a mean spirited remark either, that really is true.

But I can't let stand this business of how such people can't get something because they devote a certain amount of time on something else. The notion that a practicing drummer who works on his technical issues can't get Billy Higgins is ridiculous stereotypical commentary to imply that speed by its very nature dumbs down not only music, but its participants. Just so you know, I've been told by a great many people that Billy Higgins had good rudimental skills and practiced hard on his chops. That is IMO why his beautiful simplicities are so confident and pure. He had the control to pull that off. But I'm also aware that a lot of people would rather believe that drummers like Higgins and Rashied Ali acquired their skills from magic elves who live in the enchanted musicality forest .

[Tutin]

Sorry man, but that's inaccurate. It's just repeated enough on other forums that a lot of well intentioned guys like yourself think it's true.

Actually you see more people on drum forums lathered up in a frenzy about the relentless control of speed on their every day lives, when no such onslaught actually exists past Joey /Travis fanboys, the metal guys who actually need it to play their music but constitute a very small over all base, and the uber fusion guys, whose base is smaller than the metal guys.

That's not a mean spirited remark either, that really is true.

But I can't let stand this business of how such people can't get something because they devote a certain amount of time on something else. The notion that a practicing drummer who works on his technical issues can't get Billy Higgins is ridiculous stereotypical commentary to imply that speed by its very nature dumbs down not only music, but its participants. Just so you know, I've been told by a great many people that Billy Higgins had good rudimental skills and practiced hard on his chops. That is IMO why his beautiful simplicities are so confident and pure. He had the control to pull that off. But I'm also aware that a lot of people would rather believe that drummers like Higgins and Rashied Ali acquired their skills from magic elves who live in the enchanted musicality forest .

Couldn't have put it better myself Matt.

[tomgrosset]

Drum sites and discussion boards are mostly populated by guys that ARE into speed and the more pyro technical aspects of drumming.

You obviously haven't been around many discussion forums.

But I'm also aware that a lot of people would rather believe that drummers like Higgins and Rashied Ali acquired their skills from magic elves who live in the enchanted musicality forest .

lol Well said.

[tomk]

I personally think speed does not matter that much, although it can be a facet to a drummer. What I can't stand are people comparing drummers, as if it is some sort of competition. Music is not a competition, I don't think anyone beats anyone.

[JWM]

I view speed as simply one component amongst many other facets of being a well-rounded, versatile musician.

That said, speed is a lot like Visual FX in the movies-- people show up for the FX, but in the end are moved by great storytelling.

[Mr. Pasquini]

This is the most tired subject. You need speed to play certain things. I started off going "Yea, I'm not gonna be one of those guys who sits around thinking 'If only I could break 200 with my feet..." but now that I've just broken 200 on my feet (hurray) I realize how important speed really is. I can play things that I think in my head now, things that I had no prayer of pulling off confidently before. Many things require speed, all things require musicality; speed is another tool for you to use to get the job done. Imagine if you need to change a light bulb (hehehe) but you have to do it without your thumbs... how would you go about it? Music is the same. Play a groove at 200bpm but then come to find out you can't play the 16ths to complete the fill you want to throw in there; that's why you need speed.

[schist]

Speed is good for fluency around the kit.

Everything else has been said, pretty much.

[paramac]

This quote..........
"The notion that a practicing drummer who works on his technical issues can't get Billy Higgins is ridiculous stereotypical commentary to imply that speed by its very nature dumbs down not only music, but its participants."
is not what I am saying. You are reading into what I am saying out of context. Since you said it that way I will say that speed in the wrong hands (I'll call it) DOES dumb down the music and there is more of that than people just truly great with all the stuff. I know there are guys who have both ain't nothin wrong with that. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the not getting Billy remark I made because I believe it to be true and have seen living proof of it. I know I am just a another chump 41 yr old drummer both even Kenny Washington would back me up on that. I remember reading an interview of him talking about how Jack, Tony and Elvin but especially the first two I mentioned are very misunderstood drummers. That being the mostly younger guys (as he put it) get seduced ( a word Peter Erskine accurately used) by the extravagance avavailable on the instrument. I hear this from old timers too, ya know guys a lot older than you or I that complain about young drummers not swinging/grooving, not going back and listening to the masters and too concerned with playing their "shit" instead of swinging the band. Some drummers spend too much time on technical drumistic stuff and not enough on music by say, learning piano or another instrument that might make them think more melodically, harmonically. Hey, some guys don't do that and sound great. I don't think a lot of this stuff is black and white. I came up in the 80s and have always loved Rock Metal and Jazz and other styles. I know there are differnent techniques, approaches, concepts to different styles such as Metal and Jazz and the thing I mention about "not getting Billy" I have been guilty of myself. This has been my history. You can't tell me that I am wrong about my own life experience unless you are arrogant enough to try to tell me that. I could debate this forever with you and maybe in 15 to 20 yrs you will see what I mean as you get older. I know that might rub you the wrong way but don't I don't mean to be a dick, just direct. Btw, I briefly checked out your profile and one of your vids. You are obviously a hard working young talented dude but often times when someone is young and talented like yourself, there DOES come a certain arrogance and it is hard to tell them anything. You can obviously back up a lot of your point of views by your excellent amount of knowledge but I mention the arrogance because as I mentioned in the beginning of this F&king novel I am writing(he! He!) you read into the comment I said and in a sense tried to put words in my mouth as in your response...



Sorry man, but that's inaccurate. It's just repeated enough on other forums that a lot of well intentioned guys like yourself think it's true.
I

That's not a mean spirited remark either, that really is true.

But I can't let stand this business of how such people can't get something because they devote a certain amount of time on something else. The notion that a practicing drummer who works on his technical issues can't get Billy Higgins is ridiculous stereotypical commentary to imply that speed by its very nature dumbs down not only music, but its participants. Just so you know, I've been told by a great many people that Billy Higgins had good rudimental skills and practiced hard on his chops. That is IMO why his beautiful simplicities are so confident and pure. He had the control to pull that off. But I'm also aware that a lot of people would rather believe that drummers like Higgins and Rashied Ali acquired their skills from magic elves who live in the enchanted musicality forest .

[mattsmith]

This quote..........
"The notion that a practicing drummer who works on his technical issues can't get Billy Higgins is ridiculous stereotypical commentary to imply that speed by its very nature dumbs down not only music, but its participants."
is not what I am saying. You are reading into what I am saying out of context.

Well, with all due respect, your opening statement was:

A F(@#(ING MEN! A lot of these guys wont "get" Billy...That's not a mean spirited remark, it's is true..Drum sites and discussion boards are mostly populated by guys that ARE into speed and the more pyro technical aspects of drumming.

I didn't write those words sir, you did. And in no place do I read anywhere that even mentions or implies speed in the wrong hands. You merely paint brushed a wide swath to make a colorful point. Your remarks were quite clear. Or is my youthful disrespect clouding that?


I know I am just a another chump 41 yr old drummer both even Kenny Washington would back me up on that.

I absolutely didn't say anything at all to imply that your age makes you a chump. All my heroes are dead. In fact I find it interesting that the I'm just an old chump drummer line, is being used on a forum member often chided for constantly mentioning his close relationships with accomplished elder family members. In fact he's the same guy who was mocked for being the family parrot by the very pseudo intellectual blowhard you backed up with your A F(@#(ING MEN! That guy was banned BTW.

I remember reading an interview of him talking about how Jack, Tony and Elvin but especially the first two I mentioned are very misunderstood drummers. That being the mostly younger guys (as he put it) get seduced ( a word Peter Erskine accurately used) by the extravagance avavailable on the instrument. I hear this from old timers too, ya know guys a lot older than you or I that complain about young drummers not swinging/grooving, not going back and listening to the masters and too concerned with playing their "shit" instead of swinging the band. Some drummers spend too much time on technical drumistic stuff and not enough on music by say, learning piano or another instrument that might make them think more melodically, harmonically. Hey, some guys don't do that and sound great. I don't think a lot of this stuff is black and white. I came up in the 80s and have always loved Rock Metal and Jazz and other styles.

Sir that's all great, and yep a lot of that is true. But not on a drum forum. That was the entire issue HERE. Your words regarding that were quite clear.

I know there are differnent techniques, approaches, concepts to different styles such as Metal and Jazz and the thing I mention about "not getting Billy" I have been guilty of myself. This has been my history. You can't tell me that I am wrong about my own life experience unless you are arrogant enough to try to tell me that. I could debate this forever with you and maybe in 15 to 20 yrs you will see what I mean as you get older. I know that might rub you the wrong way but don't I don't mean to be a dick, just direct.

OK, I think your fangs just appeared. Can you be any more condescending? And a mind reader too? Again, I'm trying to be cool with you here but you've set a rough table, because I absolutely know you're not the kind of guy that people disagree with. But seriously, if you think you're coming to a drum forum and getting a pass for age, you've come to the wrong place. Save yourself the irritation. First of all, how on Earth am I supposed to know about your life experiences? Most important, when were they challenged by me? And playing aside/ since we're not talking about your playing, only your debating tactics/ it isn't the fact that I don't get your Billy Higgins point, I didn't like your inability to maintain any clarity, and I don't need 15-20 years to get that either.

Btw, I briefly checked out your profile and one of your vids. You are obviously a hard working young talented dude but often times when someone is young and talented like yourself, there DOES come a certain arrogance and it is hard to tell them anything. You can obviously back up a lot of your point of views by your excellent amount of knowledge but I mention the arrogance because as I mentioned in the beginning of this F&king novel I am writing(he! He!) you read into the comment I said and in a sense tried to put words in my mouth as in your response...

Again, I'm sorry but the old sage lecturing the young whippersnapper angle doesn't apply here. I hope you will re read your own comments. Most are rude, impatient, condescending, subjective, rambling, and really ARE arrogant. You may be a sensational drummer, with loads of useful experiences. But that was never the issue here. Your point was about social behaviors of young drummers. Your musical issues never applied. I look forward to hearing your music. And if you're going to introduce yourself by calling out people, you might want to do that sooner than later.

I apologize to the forum for a less than stellar disposition here. People will believe what they want to believe. Speed issues may be one of those things where it never gets resolved.

[paramac]

It's useless to keep this going. Like i said, I meant no disrespect but you are obviously offended by my responses. Anything that you deny as far as me saying you were arrogant you have proven to to be true by your responses. This is a great web site and I appreciate what Bernhard has done and have emailed way back to thank him. Don't worry, you won't see too much of me on this board as I honestly can't take the crap that some people spew such as yourself. Btw, my name is Mike, you don't have to call me sir although I think that was you just being a little wise ass. Good luck in your next speed drumming contest! Ha! Ha! There, now I am being a dick, but you pretty much asked for it..

Incidently, I checked out a little more of your stuff on you tube and I gotta say again you sound good! Your have some nice hands. Shoot! I couldn't play like that when i was your age. Your playing sounds real good but young which is fine. Your solos are good but I don't hear dynamics or space. That is something you will hopefully get as you mature. Watch out for those speed contest too. In the long run they are useless for any kind of making music. Hey, if a guy wants to be competitive in drumming, then he or she should be able to do that. I personally am not into competition at ALL in music. Some of my friends told me to go in those drum offs and was told I could win some rounds etc. I have no desire to do something like that and I don't know how the hell I would do or care. I have nothing to prove to a crowd that is looking for flash and speed and mumbo Jumbo although some of those guys are smoking no doubt..Most of them are better at those solos than playing in a group with musicians and blending and making music. It is easier to spew chops all over the place. It is like lifting weights, if I work out enough, I will eventually be able to bench press 350 lbs. It is commendable to some extent but it's just a matter of repetition. I went through that some yrs ago and got what I consider carried away with the single stroke roll and had it blazing fast at a certain point. Then I thought, wait! This ain't gonna get me gigs! I also was getting into Purdie at the time and that changed my whole outlook on that stuff. Playing music at a high level is also about having life experience too going though different things ups and downs failure successes etc. I am not saying that I play it on a high level, but I try to. That is relative anyway. I know a lot more as a person now and have more life experience then when I was 16 and I still have plenty to learn on the drums and other wise. I can be arrogant and I can admit it. Can you?? Probably not which proves the point that you are....You really care about making your points as I can see from some of your other responses on this topic. For gods sake man! Let it go already..

[Mr. Pasquini]

Watch out for those speed contest too. In the long run they are useless for any kind of making music. Hey, if a guy wants to be competitive in drumming, then he or she should be able to do that.

You're the one who needs to let it go.

"Watch out for those speed contests"
WHAT? I don't think he does the speed contests to prove he's more musical than anyone else, I don't think he ever said that. He does the speed contests for just that, competition or so I believe. It's called "WORLDS FASTEST DRUMMER" not "WORLDS BEST DRUMMER", nobody implied that anybody who wins the WFD was the WBD. Read some of the stuff you've said; you're plausibly the most arrogant person I've ever witnessed on these boards.

[DogBreath]

Paramac, you seem to have an axe to grind but it's not going to happen on this forum. I am very uncomfortable with the tenor of your posts. You seem unable to discuss the topic at hand without making it personal and that is unacceptable here. Dial it way back or take it elsewhere.

[foursticks]

"Watch out for those speed contest too. In the long run they are useless for any kind of making music. Hey, if a guy wants to be competitive in drumming, then he or she should be able to do that."

Dude, it's just a bit fun. Earning that title doesn't make you a master of the drums, you just happen to be able to do alot of singles in a certain amount of time and it's just a laugh to able to say 'I'm the World's Fastest Drummer.' Non of the competitors (I hope) believe that by becoming a WFD champ means that they're best frigging drummer since Elvin Jones.
You need to stop getting hung up on it, you haven't made the greatest impression on here either.
I am currently experiencing a problem now where my mind is musically more advanced that my technical ability and this is hindering my playing in some aspects. Yes, I'd rather listen to a musician (not just drummers) who plays for the music rather than is just pure technique.
However, even the guys you listed; Tony, Elvin and Jack all have incredible technique as well as incredible creativity and frankly I'd rather listen to a drummer/musician like that who is able to to something that has musically never been done before and Jack, Tony and Elvin are perfect examples, but they still were masters of technique were they not? Creavity and musicallity will always come first, but technique would be second right?
I seriously doubt that Max Roach would be able play so melodically and beautifully without his great technique, same with Alan Dawson.
So, chill out with the beef against technique/speed - the main thing is on educating others about musicaility and application of technique to it, not having a go at them. We all know that less is always more. It's teaching that to beginners that counts.

[jay norem]

I always thought that being able to play the drums well enough to make a living at it is what matters.

[Tutin]

Well Matt, you've impressed me again in yet another speed debate, I don't know why these guys bother, it's a shame it's always left to you.

Anyway, I would put in a point about speed being necessary, but they've all been made I think! haha.

[PBW]

The fills at the end of Asa are not beyond my speed abilities, but musically it is so complex that I find it mind-bogglingly difficult to play.

What's Asa?

Thanks :)

[Derek]

What's Asa?

Thanks :)

Steely Dan album. Stu refers to the title track ( or did you already know this but refer to the spelling ? )

[jay norem]

Steely Dan album. Stu refers to the title track ( or did you already know this but refer to the spelling ? )

It's Aja, and the drums on that track are played by Steve Gadd.

[Late Bloomer]

It's Aja, and the drums on that track are played by Steve Gadd.


Aja is one of my favourite SD tracks. When I saw them in concert recently, Keith Carlock did an awesome job doing Aja.