Mangini practice technique. Wow!!!

[Jeff Almeyda]

I recently got Mike Mangini's Rhythm Knowledge books. In them he claims that repeating a motion at a slow tempo for at least 4x a week for at least 90 minutes nonstop will DRAMATICALLY improve that motion. He says that this programs the motion into your nervous system in a very powerful manner.

I decided to check out his theory for myself: I played German low strokes at a tempo of 100 BPM for 100 minutes NONSTOP on my Roland Rhythm Coach. I had the accuracy function on so that I could see exactly where each 16th was falling. I really concentrated on being perfect in my form and timing.

Well, it was torture. The hard part was staying focused. But I've done it for 4 straight days now and I am shocked by the transformation. In just a few days, my hands feel more relaxed yet stronger. At band practice last night, I was just flying with no effort. It's as if the hands know what to do and they react effortlessly to my commands. Now I'm going to do it for 5 more weeks and we'll see what happens.

I've been playing my whole life and I'm a drum teacher myself yet I've never come across such a powerful practice technique. I'm going to have to re-evaluate my practice routine because my notion of effective practice has just been altered.

Has anyone else tried this? Any students of Mike here?

[aahznightsky]

Thats fantastic ... it is true that practicing slow and focused really improves your playing! But can I ask you real quick, what do you mean by slow? Were you playing 16th notes at 100 bpm? Or Quarter notes?

[Sticktrick]

Yes, that is a very interesting way to practise things. I think you have to do it for 6 weeks to get the full effect.

I did that with some crazy independance exercise years ago and I can still pull that off in my sleep although I completely stopped practising it. Works great, but as you said: its a torture.

I know some other practise methods that are also interesting, if anybody likes, I can write a longer post on that later.

Cheers and keep it up!

[Sticktrick]

Here is the forumula as I recall it:

Practise one motion 90 minutes straigt, 5 times a week, 6 weeks long = Muscle memory

[aahznightsky]

I think I'm gonna go get on that!

[Zumba_Zumba]

Knevil my friend, that sounds great. I will try this as well especially with ostinatos. Keep us posted each week!!

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

It looks like some of us might have to practice patience for 90 minutes 4 times a week for 6 weeks before we can even start trying that!

[aahznightsky]

It looks like some of us might have to practice patience for 90 minutes 4 times a week for 6 weeks before we can even start trying that!

thats when you take practice advice from Thomas Lang and start practicing two things at once!

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Some of us have better things to do. Like... sitting around and... thinking about dinner... yeah. That'll do.

[Jookbox]

90 minutes!!? i wouldn't be surprised if you got the same effect from 60. it's about having fun, not torture as some of you put it.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Thats fantastic ... it is true that practicing slow and focused really improves your playing! But can I ask you real quick, what do you mean by slow? Were you playing 16th notes at 100 bpm? Or Quarter notes?


I was playing them as 16ths.

The greatest thing about it is that there no muscle strain. Oh, they get worked but since you're never near the "red line", they get developed instead of strained.

Mangini does this with tons of stuff. Double bass, ostinatos, you name it.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Here is the forumula as I recall it:

Practise one motion 90 minutes straigt, 5 times a week, 6 weeks long = Muscle memory


Yes, he says 4x weekly minumum.

All of you guys who log long practice hours should check out his books.

[samthebeat]

90 minutes, thats a long time, i wish had the concertration for something like that. Do you reckon 10 might cut it...lol

[Jeff Almeyda]

90 minutes, thats a long time, i wish had the concertration for something like that. Do you reckon 10 might cut it...lol

I know it sounds crazy but he actually says 90 minutes MINUMUM. He goes up to 3 HOURS!!!

[T-1000]

Aha! But this whole thing falls apart when you want to practice something that actually requires a bit of momentum in order for the technique to work - like playing with the fingers. This technique only comes into play at the upper/mid tempo range - anything else and you're just dropping the stick and then catching it without utilizing the bounce properly.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Aha! But this whole thing falls apart when you want to practice something that actually requires a bit of momentum in order for the technique to work - like playing with the fingers. This technique only comes into play at the upper/mid tempo range - anything else and you're just dropping the stick and then catching it without utilizing the bounce properly.

Yes, you're right. You couldn't do a finger run for 2 hours. But I guess you could apply the same concept, toning it down for the finger work. Like 10-30 minutes, maybe?

The funny thing is that Mangini himself doesn't use fingers. He says he gets pain whenever he uses them. He actually cracked 1000 stroke in a minute with his bare hands just to show he doesn't need fingers to go fast.

He seems pretty hyper. I guess you'd have to be to do what he does.

[T-1000]

Wow no fingers for the world record run!? Does he use the moeller or something - or just have ingeniously fast wrists?

Yeah, mike seems a pretty eccentric dude all round - what with his 'symetrical' approach to drumkit setup an' all.

[Drum-Head]

Mangini is one of my favorite drummers, he's amazing yet I'd qualify him as a "Phantom Drummer"; there's not much stuff about him availeble...

I've always wanted to purchase his books, but I've never managed to get around to it. I've meet, talked to, read, many drummer who say his RK method is THE way to go. I think I'll reconsider buying them but this time do it!

I wonder how he actually choses what to practice with his muscle memory method, you'd imagine that it's impossible to practise all our stuff that way... We'd need 72 hours a day!!

Anyways thanks for the little review!

Regars,
Christopher.

P.S. Sticktrick, please do share your practice methods, that would be some great insight.

[jazzsnob]

One thing I do for this kind of thing is head on over to www.archive.org. It's the internet archive and they have THOUSANDS of these old classic movies. I usually will stream one and do one rudiment for the entire movie. They are great to practice to because they usually have less rhythmically intense music going on, so you can always stay with the metronome.

I strongly suggest Night Of The Living Dead

[tomgrosset]

It's crucial that you stretch before and after you do this exercise.

[DrummerBen1]

Hey KnevilDrummer,

I've got some questions for you. Could you please answer them?

1. Do high or low do your strokes have to be? Can they be full strokes? etc.

2. Why do you have to play at that tempo? Could you play at a different tempo after you've done 100bpm after like a week?.. could you take it up to 120bpm?

3. Do you use your wrists or you fingers more? Or is it a combination? (I play American grip by the way)

Thanks for sharing this information with us KnevilDrummer!
I'm sure it'll help all us drummers alot!

It's funny, I always find it hard to believe that the greats out there give away their secret advice.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Hey KnevilDrummer,

I've got some questions for you. Could you please answer them?

1. Do high or low do your strokes have to be? Can they be full strokes? etc.

2. Why do you have to play at that tempo? Could you play at a different tempo after you've done 100bpm after like a week?.. could you take it up to 120bpm?

3. Do you use your wrists or you fingers more? Or is it a combination? (I play American grip by the way)

Thanks for sharing this information with us KnevilDrummer!
I'm sure it'll help all us drummers alot!

It's funny, I always find it hard to believe that the greats out there give away their secret advice.

It can be ANY motion you like. Double bass single or double strokes, a half-time shuffle, half strokes around the toms in a French grip, a samba, whatever. The whole idea is that you are recording this info into your nervous system as cleanly as possible. The cleaner it goes in, the cleaner it will come out when you play. So slow is a relative term, it has to be slow enough so that you can get through it making every stroke cleanly and with relaxed technique.

Yes, gradually speed it up to keep pace with your development. Don't EVER sacrifice precision for speed.

As stated above, playing slowly with fingers for such a long time may not be advisable, certainly not in the beginning. They're very small muscles and easy to strain.


The key is addressing those issues which most directly affect your needs as a player. If you play in a jazz combo you most likely won't need to work on your double bass for hours on end, for example. Be realistic about your goals.

[NUTHA JASON]

GREAT THREAD.

i think you need to evaluate each exercise or 'chop' you want to achieve. some things are best learned in small amounts and at faster tempos. some things even require an initial period of slow and arduous before needing a shift to regular, shorter and faster. heel toe (constant release) needs slow long practice daily for a couple of weeks, but then when your foot is ready (and you can feel it is ready) you need to only do 5 -10 minutes a day or per session and then climb the speed ladder quickly because at a certain speed you get the 'floating foot' feel which is the benefit of the whole technique and also you can then work on your balance and dynamics and independance.
things like speed rolling, rudiments, triplets around the kit, complex ostinatos can all benefit from the advice given in this thread to a greater or lesser degree. i believe that you need to assess the results of the anoracking (which is what i call this type of torturous exercise) once a week by pushing the speed up 5b/min every 30 seconds until you reach the point of instability. by doing this you will discover certain 'sweetspot' tempos which should be returned to for more anoracking (write them down) and you will be able to guage your progress and decided what needs to be done in the following weeks.

j

[Just Drums]

There is a lot of merit to this technique although 60-90 minutes is extreme!! I used this method when trying to master flams. A while back, I found it hard to play mutliple alternating flams in a row. I could burn up some flam taps, accents, swiss army taps, and so on but I had trouble playing a lot of flams consecutively. As in:

LR RL LR RL LR RL

They would come out sloppy and sometimes flat. Stick heights would be all over the place.

So I started practicing just flams. I would use very mechanical, robotic motions and bring the leading hand stick completely vertical while the grace note stick would just hover above the head. I would play very slow flams at various dymanic levels for 10-15 minutes. I would play them at about half-note speeds at 100=bpm. After doing this for several days or even a few weeks, I noticed a dramatic improvement. It wasn't before long where I could easily and cleanly play alternating flams at 16th note speeds at 100+ bpm.

[aahznightsky]

T A while back, I found it hard to play mutliple alternating flams in a row.

LR RL LR RL LR RL



Ooh just a note man ... a great way to play consecutive flams if you already can do the technique is the open-close method ... naturally it would only work well on surfaces with rebound, and you'd have to control it a little to make sure the closing stroke of each hand isnt as loud to make the accent clear... but there ya go. I also use it a ton with swiss triplets and flammed mills.

[Pearlrules]

Awesome! I'm gonna try this out!
We need MORE THREADS LIKE THIS!!

Sharing advice and ideas are the way to go!
Its very helpful to everyone - Thanks Knevildrummer!

[h3r3tic]

Would it be cool if I'de practise the moeller like 16th notes at 100bpm for 90 mins too?
Hope to hear from you soon ;) thanx people

[aahznightsky]

Would it be cool if I'de practise the moeller like 16th notes at 100bpm for 90 mins too?
Hope to hear from you soon ;) thanx people

Of course! You'll notice that it's working really quickly too! But then once you notice that, keep practicing till you can do it in your sleep.

[HardcoreLogo]

I have had the chance to meet Mike at a clinic a few years back, and I must say, to see him play 10 strokes a second with one bare hand on a snare, then 20 with both bare hands will make you a believer for sure!!! A drum instructor once told me to start a jazz swing at like 40bpm and work it up from there,and to apply this to any repetitive motion around the set, for long periods of time to "train" or "program" the pattern into your playing, so I guess this is a method that has been time tested. It's no secret that it requires time and focus to develope strong technique, I wish I had 90 mins a day to focus on one aspect. Remember, alot of these pros were privliged children that could afford lessons with the best teachers, and parents who supported them and let them stay in there provided practice room for hours and not have to work summer jobs and such.........for us normal folks, sometimes life gets in the way, but I have made an effort as of late to dedicate some solid time to tech. practice and would like to investigate Mikes methods...........

[Jeff Almeyda]

Would it be cool if I'de practise the moeller like 16th notes at 100bpm for 90 mins too?
Hope to hear from you soon ;) thanx people

Yes, but that seems kinda fast for a 90 minute exercise, certainly at the outset. You might conk out before the end. Remember it has to be played as cleanly as possible.

That's if you mean 16 with one hand at 100 BPM. If you meant alternating strokes then never mind

[h3r3tic]

Of course! You'll notice that it's working really quickly too! But then once you notice that, keep practicing till you can do it in your sleep.

Sure I will ;)
Cool dude, thanks for the advise ;)

[Jeff Almeyda]

I Remember, alot of these pros were privliged children that could afford lessons with the best teachers, and parents who supported them and let them stay in there provided practice room for hours and not have to work summer jobs and such.........for us normal folks, sometimes life gets in the way, but I have made an effort as of late to dedicate some solid time to tech. practice and would like to investigate Mikes methods...........

I hear you. Most of the top technical monsters are legendary practicers and there's no way you can do that much if you have a job and if you have a wife and kids, just forget it. I'm actually on vacation right now and I've been playing about 5-6 hrs a day. But Monday looms....Back to squeezing in 2-3 hrs if I'm lucky.

What that means to me is that it's very critical to pick key things to work on in your practice time that will give you the "most bang for your buck". If you have only 90 minutes to practice, it's better to work on your tempo and groove than on your one-handed roll and stick twirls. It also means that you should try and use the most effective practice techniques possible.

[Sticktrick]

I don't even think that its necessary to practise 5 hours or longer every day. It is all about HOW you practise. The Mangini method is one way, some others you'll find in the other thread I created called "practise methods".

You can also practise mentally at your workplace, possibilities are endless.

[aahznightsky]

I don't even think that its necessary to practise 5 hours or longer every day. It is all about HOW you practise. The Mangini method is one way, some others you'll find in the other thread I created called "practise methods".

You can also practise mentally at your workplace, possibilities are endless.


Well you gotta admit, practicing right, more often, will get more results than practicing right less often!

[h3r3tic]

I think that practising the moeller on 16th notes by 100 bpm isn´t that good... too slow ... :P I think that 1500 bpm is good for the 16th moeller...

[aahznightsky]

I think that practising the moeller on 16th notes by 100 bpm isn´t that good... too slow ... :P I think that 1500 bpm is good for the 16th moeller...

150 bpm ... sixteenth notes moeller technique ... with one hand? Youre outta your mind! The point is to practice sloooooow. And when I told that guy yes to 100 bpm, i wasn't thinking. It's still too fast to practice sixteenths with one hand with this method ... try maybe around 70 bpm.

[Pearlrules]

Why do you have to practice it soo slow?? How are you supposed to get faster that way?

By the way, Knevildrummer says that you can gradually build up speed as well. When would you suggest you speed it up??
Yes, gradually speed it up to keep pace with your development. Don't EVER sacrifice precision for speed.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Why do you have to practice it soo slow?? How are you supposed to get faster that way?

By the way, Knevildrummer says that you can gradually build up speed as well. When would you suggest you speed it up??

You get faster that way because you are training the nervous system to operate more smoothly. Your hands will be operating more efficiently and when you go for the speed...it'll be there.

As to when to increase the speed.... when your form is relaxed and clean to even the most critical observer. You'll be surprised how bad your left hand looks at 80 BPM.

Mangini says "Although it may seem contradictory, it has been proven, time and time again, that playing SLOWLY, and really fousing on your technique yields much greater increases in speed than practicing at the highest possible tempo"

Here's the cool part: He says that if you do this for any motion for 90 minutes a week 4x a week for six weeks then you will have imprinted it so deeply in your nervous system that you will stay "up there" for months without even practicing that motion again. I like that because if it's something you use often, it will stay up indefinitely.

[Vic_Rattledeth]

This is nearly impossible for me. I could barely get through 10 minutes of practicing Flam Accents yet alone practicing 90 minutes. I'm just not patient enough.

[Pearlrules]

Okay, so you have to pick a really slow speed on work on it for 4 months? like 100 bpm the entire time?? IF thats the case, then I don't see how you could get faster if you stay at 100 bpm the entire time.. you should gradually build up like every week, right?

OR

Do you go up gradually from 100bpm every week or so??like next week could it be 108bpm??


Sorry, I'm a little confused and I just want to make sure I'm on the right track.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Gradually build speed from week to week.

[DrummerBen1]

How long do you think Mangini practiced this exercise for? like 3-4 hrs?

[dornay]

GREAT THREAD.

i think you need to evaluate each exercise or 'chop' you want to achieve. some things are best learned in small amounts and at faster tempos. some things even require an initial period of slow and arduous before needing a shift to regular, shorter and faster. heel toe (constant release) needs slow long practice daily for a couple of weeks, but then when your foot is ready (and you can feel it is ready) you need to only do 5 -10 minutes a day or per session and then climb the speed ladder quickly because at a certain speed you get the 'floating foot' feel which is the benefit of the whole technique and also you can then work on your balance and dynamics and independance.
things like speed rolling, rudiments, triplets around the kit, complex ostinatos can all benefit from the advice given in this thread to a greater or lesser degree. i believe that you need to assess the results of the anoracking (which is what i call this type of torturous exercise) once a week by pushing the speed up 5b/min every 30 seconds until you reach the point of instability. by doing this you will discover certain 'sweetspot' tempos which should be returned to for more anoracking (write them down) and you will be able to guage your progress and decided what needs to be done in the following weeks.

j

Forgive a poor Canadian's use of English. Is "anoracking" a coined word by yourself?

I love words. I tell my children words are the building blocks of thought.

Off-topic.

As a Londoner do you pronounce "porter" as "paw tah" or "por - ter"? I was shocked, stunned, dazed and confused that the "elite" in England (as per Penguins English Dictionary) pronounce it the former. So much for the "high class" opinion I have of myself pronouncing it the latter.

[DrummerBen1]

Hey Knevildrummer,

What do you feel like after doing this long exercise?
Is the aftermath supposed to be kind of a slight soreness because of the muscle is developing? It goes away when I stretch though so... yea.
By the way, I am doing a combination of wrist and finger muslces... because I play American grip and I need to train my brain to use those muscles, right?

Thanks.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Forgive a poor Canadian's use of English. Is "anoracking" a coined word by yourself?

I love words. I tell my children words are the building blocks of thought.

Off-topic.

As a Londoner do you pronounce "porter" as "paw tah" or "por - ter"? I was shocked, stunned, dazed and confused that the "elite" in England (as per Penguins English Dictionary) pronounce it the former. So much for the "high class" opinion I have of myself pronouncing it the latter.

If you want to hear middle class pronounciations of anything, I'm your man! Stuck up middle class git here.

'Anoracking' is basically geeking out on something, really geeking out. Trainspotters are anoracks, I'm a drum anorack, for instance.

This practice technique actually makes a lot of sense. I know I've replied with the unhelpful 'too little patience!' here but it's the same as anything.

I used to study Ki-Aikido. And there were various philosophies, but 6th Dan Sensei Currie once gave me a bit of advice. He said, that if you wanted to learn a motion (note: NOT perfect, LEARN) a motion, you had to repeat that motion at least five thousand times. I thought that was ridiculous, but I took his word for it.

Now practicting shea-nage holds can be awkward. It takes a few seconds to perform each time on the end of the attack. I noticed each time I did it slightly different and I hadn't habitually learnt the motion. After maybe a year of studying, it finally learnt how to do the motion without having to think about it. The same goes for Irimi and Tenkan holds (there are dozens, try working out what 'Projection number two' is.)

Even learning Katas. I was given a Bokken and a Jo (and occasionally a Boh, but I owned the other two) and it took me months to learn my first Jo Kata. 21 Strikes, to be performed cleanly and accurately. I learnt to do it in under 40 seconds IIRC, but ONLY through sheer repetition with guidance from my Sensei. The first Bokken and second Bokken (same as the Katana Katas, which I had a go with) Katas were relatively simple, the same motion in eight different directions for the first and not dissimilar for the second.

But ultimately, if you want instinctive 'muscle memory' that requires no thought whatsoever, just start a martial art and you'll see how difficult and how long it takes to truly 'learn' something.

[dornay]

If you want to hear middle class pronounciations of anything, I'm your man! Stuck up middle class git here.

'Anoracking' is basically geeking out on something, really geeking out. Trainspotters are anoracks, I'm a drum anorack, for instance.

This practice technique actually makes a lot of sense. I know I've replied with the unhelpful 'too little patience!' here but it's the same as anything.

I used to study Ki-Aikido. And there were various philosophies, but 6th Dan Sensei Currie once gave me a bit of advice. He said, that if you wanted to learn a motion (note: NOT perfect, LEARN) a motion, you had to repeat that motion at least five thousand times. I thought that was ridiculous, but I took his word for it.

Now practicting shea-nage holds can be awkward. It takes a few seconds to perform each time on the end of the attack. I noticed each time I did it slightly different and I hadn't habitually learnt the motion. After maybe a year of studying, it finally learnt how to do the motion without having to think about it. The same goes for Irimi and Tenkan holds (there are dozens, try working out what 'Projection number two' is.)

Even learning Katas. I was given a Bokken and a Jo (and occasionally a Boh, but I owned the other two) and it took me months to learn my first Jo Kata. 21 Strikes, to be performed cleanly and accurately. I learnt to do it in under 40 seconds IIRC, but ONLY through sheer repetition with guidance from my Sensei. The first Bokken and second Bokken (same as the Katana Katas, which I had a go with) Katas were relatively simple, the same motion in eight different directions for the first and not dissimilar for the second.

But ultimately, if you want instinctive 'muscle memory' that requires no thought whatsoever, just start a martial art and you'll see how difficult and how long it takes to truly 'learn' something.

Thanks for the mini English lesson. Isn't England where English was invented? So "youse guys" can make up all the words you want.

The following is my concern/puzzlement with Mangini'stechnique. I understand your point with the martial arts metaphor. At a deep level I know going over and over something imbeds it into the very being of the practitioner.

With my son I am working through the 40 or so drum rudiments and George Stone's two books (Stick Control and Accents and Rebounds). For the sake of argument there are 10 sticking patterns on each page of Stone's books (there are actually more). There are 46 pages per book. That means there are 460 plus 460 patterns to be practised. Adding the three (460 plus 460 plus 40) and rounding a bit up (because there are actually more than 10 per page and there is a wee bit of duplication) that yields 1 000 patterns. At the minimum of 6 weeks per pattern that is 6 000 weeks. With 52 weeks in a year calculate how many years. Astonishing.

That is before all other drum things.

I know my logic is linear and music is not straight yet there seems to be some kind of flaw.in my thoughts or the method.

P.S. I really do appreciate your explaining 'Anoracking'.

[NUTHA JASON]

MFB got anoraking down nicely.

now as to you thoughts:
With my son I am working through the 40 or so drum rudiments and George Stone's two books (Stick Control and Accents and Rebounds). For the sake of argument there are 10 sticking patterns on each page of Stone's books (there are actually more). There are 46 pages per book. That means there are 460 plus 460 patterns to be practised. Adding the three (460 plus 460 plus 40) and rounding a bit up (because there are actually more than 10 per page and there is a wee bit of duplication) that yields 1 000 patterns. At the minimum of 6 weeks per pattern that is 6 000 weeks. With 52 weeks in a year calculate how many years. Astonishing.

when you put it like this it seems that drumming to the level of a guy like dave wekl is therefore impossible. and how does a teenager like eloy casagrande pull it off in their short life? even if he drummed every hour of every day he would never learn to do what he does and clearly the guy has not spent 24 7 drumming either (he needs to sleep).

so
first the aikido maxim of 5000 reps is a little exagerrated...culturally the martial arts do a little overselling if only to promote the discipline mindset that is needed. heck, it happens in all sorts of areas outside of fighting, even drum instructors do it. take steve smith...he said he practiced constant release heel toe bassdrumming for 6 months before even allowing the beater to contact the head of the bass drum and make sound. i started learning and in my impatience i had a fairly steady heel toe a week after starting and felt enormously boosted...why do teachers do this? well, it is to promote an internal resignation within the student that they will have to work hard to achieve a little... so that when, after a short while they discover that they have actually achieved much, their self esteem is boosted and learning will accelerate. they willbelieve in their own natural talent even to the extent that they may beleive they have more raw ability then their teacher. this calls for a lack of ego on the behalf of the teacher and a bit of a white lie but the beneficial effects are worth it.
muscle memory takes far less reps than aikido asks for but, it may take 5000 reps to be a true master of aikido. the subtlties in that martial art are a study in themselves.

so on the one hand the reps are far less.
then there is the fact that in drumming - thankfully - skills are communicative and collective. the singlestroke roll and the double stroke roll are also parts of the paradiddle. basic patterns feed into other patterns and what really needs to be learned is not a whole new muscle memory but merely a slight adjustment of what is already known ...most of the time. the trick is ensuring the student has the right basic patterns well and truly learned so that these assist the next set of patterns and so forth.
so less reps and smaller steps lead to far less time needed to become a great drummer....instead of 6000 weeks (115 years) we get something a little more digestable...with good training, progressive exercises and personal dedication there is no reason why a student cannot achieve a vast number of perfected chops in as little as five years.
but then we are all different. given the same opportunities one person may become great in 3 years while another may take 20. but no worries about only being great at 115. lol, but having seen some of the aikido masters in pictures for that particular art perhaps 80 years is needed.
http://www.palmbeachaikikai.com/aikido%20master.jpg
j

[Jeff Almeyda]

[QUOTE=dornayThe following is my concern/puzzlement with Mangini'stechnique. I understand your point with the martial arts metaphor. At a deep level I know going over and over something imbeds it into the very being of the practitioner.

With my son I am working through the 40 or so drum rudiments and George Stone's two books (Stick Control and Accents and Rebounds). For the sake of argument there are 10 sticking patterns on each page of Stone's books (there are actually more). There are 46 pages per book. That means there are 460 plus 460 patterns to be practised. Adding the three (460 plus 460 plus 40) and rounding a bit up (because there are actually more than 10 per page and there is a wee bit of duplication) that yields 1 000 patterns. At the minimum of 6 weeks per pattern that is 6 000 weeks. With 52 weeks in a year calculate how many years. Astonishing.

That is before all other drum things.

I know my logic is linear and music is not straight yet there seems to be some kind of flaw.in my thoughts or the method.
[/QUOTE]

The error you are making is confusing an "exercise" with a "motion". If you wanted to work on the single stroke roll from the German position (A Motion), you could choose from hundreds of exercises in stick control that utilize single strokes and work through them using the technique described above.

In other words, as long as your hands are performing alternating strokes it doesn't matter WHICH exercise you do. When I do it, I work on my odd groupings. I'll play groups of 3 then 5 then 7 and so on... Your hands are still doing the same motion and you are recording the same info into your nervous system. (The "info" being how to move the wrist properly from the German position)

You could pick an entire page out of Stick Control and work on that for a few sessions or you can just do a single stroke roll but the idea is essentially the same.

Similar thing would go for doubles, or for traditional grip singles or for any other motion.

Now, obviously, you would pick those exercises appropriate to the motion you are addressing at that time.

[dornay]

MFB got anoraking down nicely.

now as to you thoughts:


when you put it like this it seems that drumming to the level of a guy like dave wekl is therefore impossible. and how does a teenager like eloy casagrande pull it off in their short life? even if he drummed every hour of every day he would never learn to do what he does and clearly the guy has not spent 24 7 drumming either (he needs to sleep).

so
first the aikido maxim of 5000 reps is a little exagerrated...culturally the martial arts do a little overselling if only to promote the discipline mindset that is needed. heck, it happens in all sorts of areas outside of fighting, even drum instructors do it. take steve smith...he said he practiced constant release heel toe bassdrumming for 6 months before even allowing the beater to contact the head of the bass drum and make sound. i started learning and in my impatience i had a fairly steady heel toe a week after starting and felt enormously boosted...why do teachers do this? well, it is to promote an internal resignation within the student that they will have to work hard to achieve a little... so that when, after a short while they discover that they have actually achieved much, their self esteem is boosted and learning will accelerate. they willbelieve in their own natural talent even to the extent that they may beleive they have more raw ability then their teacher. this calls for a lack of ego on the behalf of the teacher and a bit of a white lie but the beneficial effects are worth it.
muscle memory takes far less reps than aikido asks for but, it may take 5000 reps to be a true master of aikido. the subtlties in that martial art are a study in themselves.

so on the one hand the reps are far less.
then there is the fact that in drumming - thankfully - skills are communicative and collective. the singlestroke roll and the double stroke roll are also parts of the paradiddle. basic patterns feed into other patterns and what really needs to be learned is not a whole new muscle memory but merely a slight adjustment of what is already known ...most of the time. the trick is ensuring the student has the right basic patterns well and truly learned so that these assist the next set of patterns and so forth.
so less reps and smaller steps lead to far less time needed to become a great drummer....instead of 6000 weeks (115 years) we get something a little more digestable...with good training, progressive exercises and personal dedication there is no reason why a student cannot achieve a vast number of perfected chops in as little as five years.
but then we are all different. given the same opportunities one person may become great in 3 years while another may take 20. but no worries about only being great at 115. lol, but having seen some of the aikido masters in pictures for that particular art perhaps 80 years is needed.
http://www.palmbeachaikikai.com/aikido%20master.jpg
j

Wonderful reply. I was being facetious in my 6 000 weeks. My unspoken point was how does one optimize one's workouts?

You did not fall for my clever trap if you were high class or not i.e. the pronunciation of porter.

[Jeff Almeyda]

This technique can be combined with Lang's concept of working several things at once for even more effectiveness.

Let's say you are working on hand foot combinations. You could do 1 minute of RH RF followed by 1 minute of LH LF. Doing this for 90 minutes to a click will allow you to address hand and foot technique, tempo (make sure to count OUT LOUD), balance, coordination and endurance simultaneously.

Now that's some serious bang for the buck.

[Latin Groover]

Just quickly knevil, (im actually at school right now, so i havent got time to read the thread, i will when i get home though) so sorry, im sure these things have been asked.

Do you accent the 1/4 notes when doing the 16ths at 100?
Did you ever stop...once. Cause i know that i could do it for that long, im sure my grip would slowly start to slip around
And over the past few weeks ive noticed my grip tighten a bit, now if i try this 90min idea and i do it all while staying loose, would it loosen up my gripat higher speeds too?

Again sorry if they have already been asked.
Better go now.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Just quickly knevil, (im actually at school right now, so i havent got time to read the thread, i will when i get home though) so sorry, im sure these things have been asked.

Do you accent the 1/4 notes when doing the 16ths at 100?
Did you ever stop...once. Cause i know that i could do it for that long, im sure my grip would slowly start to slip around
And over the past few weeks ive noticed my grip tighten a bit, now if i try this 90min idea and i do it all while staying loose, would it loosen up my gripat higher speeds too?

Again sorry if they have already been asked.
Better go now.


You can do whatever you like, I would recommend playing unaccented at first because you are just working on smoothing out the motion in your hands.

I've had to stop to answer the phone or go to the bathroom, or stretch my hamstrings (I'm doing it with hand foot combos now). Every time I stop, I add 10 minutes on to the exercise as a sort of penalty.

Yes, this will help you stay loose. Your hands will relax more and more as they develop.

The more you pay attention to your technique while practicing the better results you will get. Count and use a mirror.

[Vic_Rattledeth]

instead of doing 90 minutes 5 times a week could you just do 30 minutes everyday for 3 weeks and get the same affect? Because it's impossible for me to do it 90m minutes straght.

[Jeff Almeyda]

instead of doing 90 minutes 5 times a week could you just do 30 minutes everyday for 3 weeks and get the same affect? Because it's impossible for me to do it 90m minutes straght.

I don't know, I've never tried it. If you work on something evry day for 30 minutes I'm sure it will improve. I just don't know how much.

[centralzeke]

30 minutes is way more realistic. Most people can't practice the same thing for 5 minutes straight.

[skippy]

if you did this with larger heavier sticks such as marching sticks would it help more?

[JWM]

Mangini's approach is spot-on.

As for me, I like to plant myself in front of the TV at a low volume with either a pad and/or a bass drum pad. It's more "company" than anything. I have my metronome and headphones and I'll spend anywhere between 90 minutes to 3 hours working on a specific exercise/rudiment at slower tempos. While I don't necessarily work at one tempo for the whole duration, I am as thorough as possible about really locking in with the metronome before going up a few BPMs. After I begin working things up to speed over time, I'll go back to a slower tempo as a "warm up," and then work at faster tempos.

The real key here is SLOW. Not only is it more difficult in terms of accurate execution, but it does literally "program" your mind and body.

I will agree though that this is for career drummers who are willing to patiently endure.

[JWM]

if you did this with larger heavier sticks such as marching sticks would it help more?
Use whatever size you feel comfortable with in your general playing.

My thing is to "program" your body with the tools you intend to use. If you use a 5B for instance, your body will grow accustomed to said size and "recognize" the programming. I've come to prefer a 5B, and exclusively play with it, but you should use whatever works well for your hands.

Cheers.

[JWM]

Okay, so you have to pick a really slow speed on work on it for 4 months? like 100 bpm the entire time?? IF thats the case, then I don't see how you could get faster if you stay at 100 bpm the entire time.. you should gradually build up like every week, right?

OR

Do you go up gradually from 100bpm every week or so??like next week could it be 108bpm??


Sorry, I'm a little confused and I just want to make sure I'm on the right track.
My suggestion is to just be thorough at SLOW tempos... listen to your body and instincts. Your own standards for thoroughness and your body will tell you when to move on. And after all, we should be careful not to become too mechnical.

[JWM]

The funny thing is that Mangini himself doesn't use fingers.
This is not true. He states on his site that his "wrist technique" is mostly wrist, but there are fingers involved.

I wish he'd stop being so vague (he probably wants you to come pay him for lessons at Berklee), but I've watched his record runs and brief "blast beat" clip on his site numerous times and I feel that I've come to understand his technique--

The fingers, while still without tension, are in a "locked grip" position or shape (the back three fingers sort of "claw" around the stick for absolute control, and the index is in a more relaxed position to support them). If you understand the Gladstone technique, it's that downward wrist motion at the low stroke height (German grip), but you're controlling the rebound of the stick with the fingers instead of following the rebound. This is what allows for the wrist to be the primary function while still playing without tension.

And it's critical to understand that there is still rebound. But the wrist strokes are producing the rebound and the fingers (primarily the back three) are controlling the rebound to facilitate the wrist strokes.

[Tex12]

Someone wrote he thinks Mike Mangini practiced 3 to hours per day
I agree but it was before breakjust
How many hours did Mike Mangini practice after lunch to supper time?
This guy's chops are so fast he had to put in many many hours per day

[JWM]

Someone wrote he thinks Mike Mangini practiced 3 to hours per day
I agree but it was before breakjust
How many hours did Mike Mangini practice after lunch to supper time?
This guy's chops are so fast he had to put in many many hours per day
Both Lang and Donati say that they rarely exceed 6-8 hours. Lang states on his site that he does an average of 3-5.

[DrummerBen1]

Both Lang and Donati say that they rarely exceed 6-8 hours. Lang states on his site that he does an average of 3-5.

He's talking about Mangini though... the fastest drummer in the world.

[Jeff Almeyda]

He's talking about Mangini though... the fastest drummer in the world.


I understand that this thread is about Mike but please do not put Mangini above Virgil Donati. Mangini is amazing but Virgil really is the king. The sickest part about Virgil is that he's BETTER than he was a couple of years ago. He is the standard against which all others are judged. I'm speaking here of the technique monsters.

The funny thing about this is that MOST of the top players and teachers that I've met agree with me on Virgil. It's odd but true. Most of the time, you will find great dissension on topics like who is the "best" but when it comes to advancing the horizons as to what is possible on a kit, the overwhelming consensus is: Virgil, VIRGIL, VIRGIL!!!!

Ok, enough...off topic. Sorry but I had to do it.

[DrummerBen1]

Your own standards for thoroughness and your body will tell you when to move on.

How do you know when your body tells you? lol

[Tex12]

Mike Mangini can put Virgil Donati in his back pocket when it comes down to shear technique

[JWM]

He's talking about Mangini though... the fastest drummer in the world.
But let's be logical here. Even if Mangini practices upwards of 8+ hours, there's really no way he can do it everyday for long periods of time. He's been a clinician, touring drummer and teacher at Berklee for years. He's a full-time, professional drummer. While there may be periods of time where he can log those kind of hours, there's simply no way he can do it every single day, month after month.

And let's remember something-- like Waterson, Mangini is well into his 40s now. A lot of what he does is accumulative from decades of playing.

[JWM]

How do you know when your body tells you? lol
I guess I can say for myself after playing for 15 years that I've become somewhat attuned to my own body's development with things. Some of it is knowing when fatigue starts to set in (especially with the feet/legs). But a lot of that is also experience I think... knowing when enough is enough in order to develop something.

In addition, we do actually need to be careful with our bodies. Even with good, relaxed technique, the joints and muscles can only handle so much. I think it's a good idea to really try and feel what our body is up to while we are practicing. But of course IMHO you do have to log the long hours in order to start to do that!

[JWM]

I understand that this thread is about Mike but please do not put Mangini above Virgil Donati. Mangini is amazing but Virgil really is the king. The sickest part about Virgil is that he's BETTER than he was a couple of years ago. He is the standard against which all others are judged. I'm speaking here of the technique monsters.

The funny thing about this is that MOST of the top players and teachers that I've met agree with me on Virgil. It's odd but true. Most of the time, you will find great dissension on topics like who is the "best" but when it comes to advancing the horizons as to what is possible on a kit, the overwhelming consensus is: Virgil, VIRGIL, VIRGIL!!!!

Ok, enough...off topic. Sorry but I had to do it.
Well, I will agree with the post above that Mangini's mechanical technique is superior to Virg's. Mangini has the corner when it comes to hands especially, and, to be honest, I kind of think Virg has limited himself technique-wise. He's almost a little behind: he doesn't use heel/toe (which I personally can't imagine living without anymore) and he's strictly traditional grip (no matter what he says, I do think this limits him a bit).

That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that Virgil is way more musical than Mike. Virg's touch and use of dynamics should be the example for anyone wanting to pursue and apply these advanced techniques. And, as a composer of progressive instrumental music, I think he's really breaking new ground.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Mike Mangini can put Virgil Donati in his back pocket when it comes down to shear technique


I'm going to see Mike in September at the Modern Drummer Festival this year so I'll give you my opinion then. Frankly, I haven't seen that much of Mike's playing. He's like the invisible drum god or something.

I wouldn't say that anyone could "put Virgil in his back pocket", though.

Mike's hands are the baddest though, gotta say that. How he does 1000 with no sticks is just amazing.

[TomasHakkesBrain]

I'm going to see Mike in September at the Modern Drummer Festival this year so I'll give you my opinion then. Frankly, I haven't seen that much of Mike's playing. He's like the invisible drum god or something.

I wouldn't say that anyone could "put Virgil in his back pocket", though.

Mike's hands are the baddest though, gotta say that. How he does 1000 with no sticks is just amazing.

ok i am 30 mins into playing double bass 16th notes at 180bpm with the roland td3 coach (whilst surfing the net!). Getting quite tiring now!

[Ekim]

...Remember, alot of these pros were privliged children that could afford lessons with the best teachers, and parents who supported them and let them stay in there provided practice room for hours and not have to work summer jobs and such.........for us normal folks, sometimes life gets in the way, but I have made an effort as of late to dedicate some solid time to tech. practice and would like to investigate Mikes methods...........

Well Mangini was working full time as a compture programmer while he was developing RK, so I wouldn't say that's such a cushy thing.

I'm a big fan of Mike Mangini's. I saw him playing for Steve Vai and he floored me with his amazing technique and showmanship too (but considering it was a Vai show, what else could you expect?). He also took a good amount of time after a Vai show in Columbus to try and explain the Johnny Rabb-type one handed roll technique and other drum stuff to me. He's just a really nice, humble, hyper and approachable guy. I'd love to catch him in clinic.

His "C&C" method of practice is well worth the RK books alone. It has to do with specific patterns where the leading limb changes. I haven't worked on it for a long time, but it really hurt my brain - in a good way. It's the only drum practice I've ever done where I felt my brain working in new ways.

[DrummerBen1]

Hey Knevildrummer,

So once you get up to like... lets say... 160bpm+... you have to start using your fingers, right?... but didn't you say that it's bad to use your fingers 'cause you'll strain them when you're doing that long exercise? Do you start to shorten this long exercise of 90 minutes down when you start using your fingers more??

Thanks alot!

[Class A Drummer]

wow, mangini has very interesting methods. im going to get right on this one tommorow.

[jangus]

Very interesting. I got one more week before band camp. I'm gonna use this to develop some rudiments and my poor traditional grip (I never learned trad until a few months ago).

[Jeff Almeyda]

Hey Knevildrummer,

So once you get up to like... lets say... 160bpm+... you have to start using your fingers, right?... but didn't you say that it's bad to use your fingers 'cause you'll strain them when you're doing that long exercise? Do you start to shorten this long exercise of 90 minutes down when you start using your fingers more??

Thanks alot!


I don't know, bro. I tried using fingers for an extended period of time yesterday and I found that if I kept the tempo slow and just tried to let the sticks bounce I was able to do it for a long time without any real effort. The key is to avoid muscle strain. If you take it easy, it's not too bad.

I was down at 130 BPM for the finger stuff, though. Slow for fingers, but it did help to train the movement because I'm faster today. You'll see all sorts of problems with your left hand finger work at that speed.

But, in the meantime, don't worry about that. Just start slow and keep it up. You WILL get better.

[Drum-Head]

Both Lang and Donati say that they rarely exceed 6-8 hours. Lang states on his site that he does an average of 3-5.

That's a false affirmation concerning Virgil Donati. I've asked him myself, and used to practice up to 10hours/day. It's simple: as soon as he can, at the slightest occasion, he practices.

[Jeff Almeyda]

That's a false affirmation concerning Virgil Donati. I've asked him myself, and used to practice up to 10hours/day. It's simple: as soon as he can, at the slightest occasion, he practices.

I've heard similar things about him from both Jim Chapin and Dom Famularo. 10 hr practice sessions with food sent up every few hours. Plus he's been doing it for over 30 years. Just amazing.

I wonder what kind of obsessive personality can find the desire to practice SO MUCH after having achieved such a high level of mastery? In one way it's inspiring, in another way he really has no time for anyone else's concerns. It's lonely but egocentric. No wonder he's not married.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I'm fairly convinced that most of these top drummers must have a form of OCD. That kind of devotion is just other-worldly. I can understand drummers woodshedding for a few months at ten hours a day, but to be able to do it for thirty years is just something else, as Knevil drummer says. I can barely manage to practice two hours a day before I get stale. I find it's different with different instruments.

[NUTHA JASON]

all i can say is that the more i know the more i practice. now placemangini or famularo in that same scale and if i can do 4 hours before i get tired or stale then they can go 20 hours...and probably have (just to see if they could).

j

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Looks like somebody needs to get more knowledgable. I can understand exactly what you mean by that, I still think it's a little obsessive though. More power to them if they can do it.

[NUTHA JASON]

of course...anoracks are obsessive. lol.
hey well i would rather be obsessed with something so constructive than the sad alternatives i see in bars and betting rooms around the country.
OCD is a drummer's friend.
j

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I'm sure a lot of the real top drummers are sufferers of OCD in some form or another, I know for a fact Mike Portnoy is. Absolutely, music's a positive aim and obsession can destroy as easily as it can create. It's all too sad to see amongst many top musicians.

[centralzeke]

Haha, is it really that saddening when you see Virgil Donati or Mike Portney??

[beatsMcGee]

intresting... i comonly play for that long if not longer... couldnt you just throw a movie in the dvd player and start doing the slow tedious training ?

[beatsMcGee]

I don't know, bro. I tried using fingers for an extended period of time yesterday and I found that if I kept the tempo slow and just tried to let the sticks bounce I was able to do it for a long time without any real effort. The key is to avoid muscle strain. If you take it easy, it's not too bad.

I was down at 130 BPM for the finger stuff, though. Slow for fingers, but it did help to train the movement because I'm faster today. You'll see all sorts of problems with your left hand finger work at that speed.

But, in the meantime, don't worry about that. Just start slow and keep it up. You WILL get better.


thats the thing i suffer with my left hand... my right hand is blazing fast for singles... and i cant slow it down to really really slow tempos and keep it all fingers. but when i try and do the same for my left i end up using partial finger partial wrist.. i guess i need to slow it down and just be patient right?

[Raymond Bloom]

OCD is a drummer's friend.

What? Who is my friend? lol

no, really, what does OCD mean?

[NUTHA JASON]

obsessive compulsive dis...er.....drummer. that's it.
Obsessive Compulsive Drumming Disorder.
so it really should be OCDD.
j
ps: or 'anoracking' for short.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Hey Knevildrummer,

So once you get up to like... lets say... 160bpm+... you have to start using your fingers, right?... but didn't you say that it's bad to use your fingers 'cause you'll strain them when you're doing that long exercise? Do you start to shorten this long exercise of 90 minutes down when you start using your fingers more??

Thanks alot!

Hey I just realized that there's a small error in your thinking. Remember, we are training a motion here. If you switch from wrists to fingers then you are using a different motion. I would suggest sticking with the wrist for at least six weeks. Then maybe work on fingers.

[Jeff Almeyda]

thats the thing i suffer with my left hand... my right hand is blazing fast for singles... and i cant slow it down to really really slow tempos and keep it all fingers. but when i try and do the same for my left i end up using partial finger partial wrist.. i guess i need to slow it down and just be patient right?

Yes, be patient and very picky about what you let pass as good technique.

[DrummerBen1]

Hey I just realized that there's a small error in your thinking. Remember, we are training a motion here. If you switch from wrists to fingers then you are using a different motion. I would suggest sticking with the wrist for at least six weeks. Then maybe work on fingers.

What if you use a combination of wrist and fingers?
That is a motion, is it not?

[JWM]

That's a false affirmation concerning Virgil Donati. I've asked him myself, and used to practice up to 10hours/day. It's simple: as soon as he can, at the slightest occasion, he practices.
In Virg's '99 MD interview, he said there are certain times when it will go that long, but that, most of the time, he has to break his routine up between sessions, touring, composing, etc. And now he's busier than he's ever been.

So, if he told you he used to go for 10 a day, I'd imagine this was some time ago, perhaps in his younger days.

The thing to keep in mind is that he didn't even come to be a "name" until the early-mid 90s. He was back in Australia before then, probably able to practice like that. But there's no way he can do it everyday for 10 hours any longer. His schedule would not permit it.

[aahznightsky]

So I'm wondering why people keep on saying that you can't really practice fingers for a long amount of time, at a speed in which you're using them properly (rebound and all, not just catching).

Because I've done this type of practicing before using finger technique. Sure it's tiring at first, but after a few days, your finger muscles are way strong and you don't have to worry about that anymore, and you can use your fingers for long periods of time without any fatigue. Just check out Marco Minneman!

[DrummerBen1]

So I'm wondering why people keep on saying that you can't really practice fingers for a long amount of time, at a speed in which you're using them properly (rebound and all, not just catching).

Because I've done this type of practicing before using finger technique. Sure it's tiring at first, but after a few days, your finger muscles are way strong and you don't have to worry about that anymore, and you can use your fingers for long periods of time without any fatigue. Just check out Marco Minneman!

Yea I do a combination of wrist and fingers and yea, I'm already at 138bpm and I've done it for 4 days for 100 minutes and its very easy, all that happens is my hands get tired (I don't get strained or anything) and so yea, I'm gonna be goin up to 142bpm sooner or later and I'll be using my fingers more eventually.
And yea, I'm basically wondering about the same thing... why can't you use your fingers? We have to learn how to use them sooner or later. The pros out there do all the time. How do you think they started using their fingers and got them amazingly fast, hmm?

[Drum-Head]

In Virg's '99 MD interview, he said there are certain times when it will go that long, but that, most of the time, he has to break his routine up between sessions, touring, composing, etc. And now he's busier than he's ever been.

So, if he told you he used to go for 10 a day, I'd imagine this was some time ago, perhaps in his younger days.

The thing to keep in mind is that he didn't even come to be a "name" until the early-mid 90s. He was back in Australia before then, probably able to practice like that. But there's no way he can do it everyday for 10 hours any longer. His schedule would not permit it.

You're right; at this moment that's how things are. But never the less, he practices as soon as he can. He really does practice he ass off, you can see the result; constant progress over the years. At 47 years old he's just getting better!! We should vote a law against this so we can catch up...

I was chatting with Bunny Brunnel the same night, and he was telling me how amazing Virgil is. He told me that one day they just finished an 8 hour run in the studio recording the drum tracks, so he offered the soundguy a drive home, which he did.

One hour and a half later, Bunny came back to the studio to see Virgil because he wanted to chat with him about some stuff, but he could not find him in the rooms. So he asked one of the guys in the studio who told Bunny that Virgil never came out of the box. When Bunny went to see Virgil, he had actually spend all that time practicing, after spending 8 hours recording!

Virgil just amazes me... But like some have said here, it's obvious he has OCDD. It's like Neo when he sees everyone in Matrix coding, but Virgil sees everything in snares, sticks, cymbals...

[Blue]

that's insane. I simply don't have the patience. It doesn't seem like I have the patience for anything anymore. I simply just jam now... its fun though :) I gotta jump back on the bandwagon, I can imagine the payoff...

[Jeff Almeyda]

So I'm wondering why people keep on saying that you can't really practice fingers for a long amount of time, at a speed in which you're using them properly (rebound and all, not just catching).

Because I've done this type of practicing before using finger technique. Sure it's tiring at first, but after a few days, your finger muscles are way strong and you don't have to worry about that anymore, and you can use your fingers for long periods of time without any fatigue. Just check out Marco Minneman!

You're right. I was just being extra cautious because I didn't want to be responsible do anyone's tendonitis. I did over an hour yesterday with no ill effects, so I guess I was wrong. It won't be the first time I was wrong :)

I have to say, I'm cruising right along on my hand foot combos drills. I'm happy with the results of the 6 practice sessions using this technique so far.

[jangus]

So.. do you practice one specific pattern for an hour and a half or just different patterns with a certain technique?

For example, if I wanted to develop traditional grip, should I play alternating strokes for an hour and a half or anything in traditional grip? Or am I not thinking of this right?

[Tim Waterson]

I recently got Mike Mangini's Rhythm Knowledge books. In them he claims that repeating a motion at a slow tempo for at least 4x a week for at least 90 minutes nonstop will DRAMATICALLY improve that motion. He says that this programs the motion into your nervous system in a very powerful manner.

I decided to check out his theory for myself: I played German low strokes at a tempo of 100 BPM for 100 minutes NONSTOP on my Roland Rhythm Coach. I had the accuracy function on so that I could see exactly where each 16th was falling. I really concentrated on being perfect in my form and timing.

Well, it was torture. The hard part was staying focused. But I've done it for 4 straight days now and I am shocked by the transformation. In just a few days, my hands feel more relaxed yet stronger. At band practice last night, I was just flying with no effort. It's as if the hands know what to do and they react effortlessly to my commands. Now I'm going to do it for 5 more weeks and we'll see what happens.

I've been playing my whole life and I'm a drum teacher myself yet I've never come across such a powerful practice technique. I'm going to have to re-evaluate my practice routine because my notion of effective practice has just been altered.

Has anyone else tried this? Any students of Mike here?

Kneivel buddy glad the RK books are working well for you.
Mike is a master and has takem the timew to actually do the exercises in his books and if you see him in clinic he will simply demonstrate the techniques in just about any time signature as well.

Q...Jwm..And let's remember something-- like Waterson, Mangini is well into his 40s now. A lot of what he does is accumulative from decades of playing.

.......what do you mean we are well into our 40s?
that is just old enogh to know better and young enough to do it again.LOL


Back to knievel...
Yes doing anything for a sustained period of time on a daily basis will make that become 2nd nature.Muscle memory will kick in...Nice to see you have the discipline to see this through Good Luck and keep us posted.
Tim

[positive vibe merchant]

Just a quick one. I found this thread interesting so I thought I would give it a try last night while whatching tv.

Practiced double strokes for an hour.

a couple hours later I thought I would try it out. Increase of 5BPM, and less strain. I really didn't think that I would see reulsts so soon, but it has inspired me to continue this for a couple more nights now.

M@

[Jeff Almeyda]

.......what do you mean we are well into our 40s?
that is just old enogh to know better and young enough to do it again.LOL


Back to knievel...
Yes doing anything for a sustained period of time on a daily basis will make that become 2nd nature.Muscle memory will kick in...Nice to see you have the discipline to see this through Good Luck and keep us posted.
Tim

Yeah, I'm 38 so the 40's are just around the corner!!! Never felt better!!!

Tim, I'm gonna try this with the heel-toe stuff now that I've gotten the basic motion down on both feet. I'll keep y'all posted when I crack 1000!!! LOL

[JWM]

Q...Jwm..And let's remember something-- like Waterson, Mangini is well into his 40s now. A lot of what he does is accumulative from decades of playing.

.......what do you mean we are well into our 40s?
that is just old enogh to know better and young enough to do it again.LOL
Hey Tim-- I just want to say that players like you and Mike are a complete and total inspiration to me. I am humbled by your accomplishments and motivated to keep at it.

Cheers.

[Stijnn1990]

So how can you develope speed with this methode of mike mangini? Just do the first week singles at 100 Bpm and the next week at 108?

[tambian89]

I practiced hitting my snare at angle to help me with my control while playing the toms. I practiced about a half hour a day, and always at the end of my practice session. After about a month, I noticed I could move between the toms without as much effort as before.

- Marc

[jazzsnob]

A point that needs to be hammered in about this technique:DON'T MOVE THE SPEED UP IN A WEEK, OR EVEN TWO.

You need to seriously give your muscles time to take in the information. Give yourself a month or more per tempo.

This is an excercise in patience, and just because it doesn't "burn" doesn't mean it's not working.

[centralzeke]

Yeah should be done REALLY slowly for a couple months, don't even worry about speed. Think of it do you ever play continuously for 90 minutes? Nope so I think start really slow (IMO sixteenths-at-60-bpm slow).

[jangus]

You think it would be even more effective if you did it on a pillow?

[Pearlrules]

Think of it do you ever play continuously for 90 minutes? Nope so I think start really slow (IMO sixteenths-at-60-bpm slow).

I've just looked into this technique and I tried about a while ago.
What if you can handle going 132bpm doing 16th notes for more than 90 minutes straight? I've been doing that speed for 5 days already for about 100 minutes.

[SilverPearl]

do you think that you could speed up your double stroke by doing this?

[jazzsnob]

Yes, Silver, it would work on double strokes.

It would be more effective to use a practice pad with rebound than a pillow, because these excercises aren't about getting "a burn." Their about the motion. How can you practice the motion of hitting a damn drum on a pillow?

[aahznightsky]

I've just looked into this technique and I tried about a while ago.
What if you can handle going 132bpm doing 16th notes for more than 90 minutes straight? I've been doing that speed for 5 days already for about 100 minutes.'

That's not what you want to be doing. The point is to slow the technique waaaay down ... doing so allows you to really pay attention to every single aspect of the motion you are making, perfecting what every single fiber in your body is doing (yes I suggest working on posture at the same time) ... and that's what is going to get you results. Perfecting every little detail.

[aahznightsky]

It would be more effective to use a practice pad with rebound than a pillow, because these excercises aren't about getting "a burn." Their about the motion. How can you practice the motion of hitting a damn drum on a pillow?


Perfecting the motion is important ... but so is developing the muscles to be able to do that motion with any amount of rebound (pillow=low tuned tom). I'm finding it more effective to practice on a pillow ... it isn't detrimental to 'rebound playing' at all ... because you're still practicing the down motion of the stroke. But you aren't practicing pulling the stick back up on a pad, which is something you need to do on certain surfaces.

And no, you're not gonna get a burn from practicing long lengths of time on a pillow. You don't use the same muscles pulling the stick up as you do throwing it down, anyways.

[Pearlrules]

'

That's not what you want to be doing. The point is to slow the technique waaaay down ... doing so allows you to really pay attention to every single aspect of the motion you are making, perfecting what every single fiber in your body is doing (yes I suggest working on posture at the same time) ... and that's what is going to get you results. Perfecting every little detail.

What speed do you recommend I do?
100 bpm?
THIS WILL TAKE FOREVER!!
ESPECIALLY IF I WANNA GET UP TO 200+ !!! LOL
But I guess it's a good idea to do it slow at first and then gradually build up speed cause I will eventually be able to play it at a really fast speed for at least 60+ seconds, am I right?

[jazzsnob]

Aahz, I'm going to start a thread about practicing on pillows, because I think a good debate could happen, but for the purposes of this thread, I'll shorten my case.

Jangus-I have a friend who studies with Mr. Mangini at Berklee and Mike doesn't suggest practicing technique with pillows. He says(and I agree) that it is MUCH more difficult to measure accuracy on a pillow, and the point of this whole excercise is accuracy and repetition. How are you practicing the same motion over and over if your playing surface changes shape every time you hit it?

[NUTHA JASON]

yeah no pillow discussion here.
there are threads about it that are informative if raging. i merge them.
j

[Jeff Almeyda]

'

That's not what you want to be doing. The point is to slow the technique waaaay down ... doing so allows you to really pay attention to every single aspect of the motion you are making, perfecting what every single fiber in your body is doing (yes I suggest working on posture at the same time) ... and that's what is going to get you results. Perfecting every little detail.

YES YES YES. The point is to record perfect motions into your nervous system. Then it's easy to speed them up because they're in there so well. If you can do 132 for 100 minutes with PERFECT technique then speed it up. But I mean perfect and I'm willing to wager than I'm the pickiest guy out there. I play into a Roland Rhythm coach with the accuracy and stroke balance settings on so that I can see if I'm playing EXACTLY in time and with consistent dynamics. I use a mirror and I'm a hyper-critical son of a gun.

Perfect practice makes perfect.

[DrummerBen1]

What IF you are a pretty fast drummer already and you've JUST heard about this technique... So would you start at 100bpm (or slower) like every other drummer? Cause don't forget... everyone is different.
Some drummers have JUST heard about this and have JUST started playing drums, so they would start at like, 70 bpm or lower.
Theres also some drummres who are somewhat fast so they would start at 130bpm no sweat.
and then theres some who aren't very fast but not really slow either.. so they would start at 110bpm, etc.

Well, anyway, I can play 140bpm straight (I could probably go faster, but I haven't tried yet... I'm basically taking it slow but not a really slow tempo ;)
And I've also been watching my technique as well, stroke height, dynamics, etc.... making sure everything is accurate.
So yea, I'm not quite sure if I should do 140bpm+ and go from there OR go back and start at 100bpm (or lower) and go from there like everyone else is doing instead.

I appreciate it. Thanks!

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I suggest playing it at a level of consistency you are comfortable at and getting really, REALLY anally retentitive about the stroke. 100bpm seems like a fair level to work at, as this really is essentially, programming. If you programme the wrong thing in, it'll be difficult to get it out again. I might start doing this whilst watching TV and we'll see how it goes. If I can develop the patience.

[Drum-Head]

From what I understand through reading on Rythm Knowledge - those who have the book or study with Mangini can confirm or precise if I'm wrong - no matter how fast you are or how long you've been playing, the idea is to program a perfect motion into your nerve system.

So, whether you've been playing for 20 years or 2, if you play Death Metal or jazz. The idea is to practice the exercice slow and making sure you're doing a perfect execution of the motion - and if you do this exercice with "errored" motions, you'll program the "errors" in your nerve system. Anything like 130bmp 16ths is way too fast! Even 100 16ths is starting to be a be to much already. Also, if I get it right, the idea isn't even to push up the bpm's at all.

I hope I got it right...


Cheers,
Christopher.

[Jeff Almeyda]

From what I understand through reading on Rythm Knowledge - those who have the book or study with Mangini can confirm or precise if I'm wrong - no matter how fast you are or how long you've been playing, the idea is to program a perfect motion into your nerve system.

So, whether you've been playing for 20 years or 2, if you play Death Metal or jazz. The idea is to practice the exercice slow and making sure you're doing a perfect execution of the motion - and if you do this exercice with "errored" motions, you'll program the "errors" in your nerve system. Anything like 130bmp 16ths is way too fast! Even 100 16ths is starting to be a be to much already. Also, if I get it right, the idea isn't even to push up the bpm's at all.

I hope I got it right...


Cheers,
Christopher.

I've been trying to figure out how best to manage the "advancing tempo" question since I've gotten so many PM's on it. It's true that he stresses slow and perfect execution but he dos also state that difficulty is relative to your level and that you should gradually up the difficulty in order to keep the challenge there.

In his section on managing practice time he does have a tempo chart for an exercise. (Page 100 Vol 2) He starts at one tempo, when he can do x number of reps (800 for example) pefectly then he moves the click up and starts back at 100 or 10 or whatever is appropriate.

In other words, slow for Mike Mangini is not the same as slow for one of us. The real problem is one of honest self-assessment. Lacking a teacher, most guys will have to really be sure that they can do the exercise perfectly to Mike's standards. (Don't practice until you get it right, practice until you can't get it wrong) Then and only then should you consider raising the tempo.

Here's another hint, if you are anything less than an advanced player (gigging regularly, teaching etc). DON'T MOVE THE TEMPO. I can guarantee you that you do not need to speed up in order to get spectacular results.

You must practice slowly in order to play fast.

[bigfatbobby]

Awesome stuff! Did you prctice with both hands at the same time for 90 minutes or did you practice 90 minutes each hand or did you just practice one of your hands?

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Depends what you're practicing. This can work with literally anything apparently.

In this case, it's done on a single stroke roll, but it could work equally well with doubles, triples, RLF triplets, RLFF fills, literally anything. It's just a way of programming motions. I say 'just'.

[Drums558]

Great thread!!!! Thanks Knevil.
I have become very anal when practicing singles and doubles on the pad, watching every stroke for repetative stick hight, angle of the stroke, wrist motion, finger motion, etc...
I have improved imensly (sp) since becoming focused on the details of the motions. I also use a Roland rythm coach and the stroke meter is what started me thinking about this. What I havn't done is repeating the stroke(s) for 100 minutes, wow thats a long time and a ton of patience. I have been doing singles and doubles for 20-30 minutes and was impressed with being able to keep my focus that long. I teach my students to practice each exersize for 3 minutes each, I believe most of us have trouble staying focused for even 3 minutes, time yourself and try it. The difference is i'm talking exersizes not motions, Knevil is talking about motions, correct?
Don't we all have OCDD?
I'm going to try to squeeze in some 100 minute pad practices over the next week. My problem will be getting my wife and kid to leave me alone that long, maybe, rent a 100 minute movie and do singles while watching. Yea, that otta keep em distracted while I practice.
Mike

[Jeff Almeyda]

I just realized that the first motion to address with this method should be the free stroke.

Looking back at my first days studying with Dom Famularo, he had me do an exercise for the free stroke called 2-50. The metronome was set at 80 BPM and I played the free stroke from a full stroke position in German grip as quarter notes. The stick that was not in use was kept in the the full stroke starting position, perpendicular to the ground. I used a mirror as well to monitor my technique.

The exercise consists of 2 measures of quarter notes with the left hand and then 2 measures with the right, then 4 measures with each then 6 and so on until 50. At that tempo it took like an hour and a half to complete the exercise. I stayed at that tempo for weeks and I did it 3-4 x weekly. Dom insisted that it was the best and fastest way to get the motion ingrained into my system. So, these two great teachers both have similar approaches to learning motions.

It doesn't matter how advanced you are. If you have never done some serious work on the free stroke you should try a routine like this. It will pay off big time. You'll find that your hand will relax to a whole new level and everything else will come easier.

[Pearlrules]

Okay, I just wanted to let you know that I prcatice at 100bpm doing 16th notes for 100 minutes and then later on in the day I practice a bit at a faster tempo, like around 138bpm doing 16th notes for 100 minutes as well. It's good to switch it up sometimes. You should practice at a slow AND at a relatively fast tempo I find.

As Knevildrummer said, you don't need to speed up this exercise at all. Just practice at a slow tempo for a long period of time and you'll still get amazing results. But that doesn't mean you can't practice at a bit faster tempos, like 130bpm.... BUT they have to be tempos that you can handle though!

So when you first started going from 100 to 110, to 120, to 130, to 140, etc... try and take it back down to 100bpm again because it'll help alot just slowing it down again. Take the time to try different tempos for a long period of time... BUT make sure that you can actually handle these tempos and that your strokes have to be even and as perfect as possible.

Do you guys agree with this?

[Drums558]

OK, I tried this yesterday and I gotta hand it to you guys that can stick with a pattern for 100 minutes. I made it 28 minutes doing singles and 34 minutes doing doubles, both at 100 bpm on my Rythm coach.
Man, this takes some serious dicipline.
Mike

[Just Drums]

This kind of falls within this thread.

I've been working on a pattern from Afro-Cuban Rhythms For Drumset. It is a bembe pattern if I remember correctly. I noticed that I could never quiet play it cleanly. At medium-fast to fast tempos, it just felt slight off and not quiet together. So I slowed it down. Way way down. I think I worked on it at about 70 bpm. Maybe less. And to my surprise, I was having trouble at that slow speed playing it cleanly too. So I worked on it at this very slow speed for a good 15 minutes or more before I tried it again at a regular speed. It helped a lot.

[JWM]

I just realized that the first motion to address with this method should be the free stroke.
It's interesting to note here that Mangini doesn't appear to use the free stroke very often.

Take a close look at his hands here--

http://mikemangini.com/new_site_2006/Video/HypBerklee/NofingBlast.mov

http://mikemangini.com/new_site_2006/Video/HypBerklee/Crow138.mov

They're brief clips, but if you look at his right hand, he's doing controlled strokes with a relaxed locked grip (the fingers are controlling the rebound by staying wrapped around the stick in a relaxed manner while the wrist facilitates the strokes-- he calls this his "wrist technique").

I feel if you want to be on the path with Mike's method, it would be good to take his technique into consideration when starting slowly.

[centralzeke]

I don't think Mangini is a good example of relaxed technique or the free stroke. Yeah he's amazing.. but when he plays he doesn't look very relaxed or fully using rebound technique at all..

[beatsMcGee]

It's interesting to note here that Mangini doesn't appear to use the free stroke very often.

Take a close look at his hands here--

http://mikemangini.com/new_site_2006/Video/HypBerklee/NofingBlast.mov

http://mikemangini.com/new_site_2006/Video/HypBerklee/Crow138.mov

They're brief clips, but if you look at his right hand, he's doing controlled strokes with a relaxed locked grip (the fingers are controlling the rebound by staying wrapped around the stick in a relaxed manner while the wrist facilitates the strokes-- he calls this his "wrist technique").



I feel if you want to be on the path with Mike's method, it would be good to take his technique into consideration when starting slowly.

hes a great drummer and all, but for real he needs to take the rambo head band off and put BACK on a shirt... haha

[JWM]

I don't think Mangini is a good example of relaxed technique or the free stroke. Yeah he's amazing.. but when he plays he doesn't look very relaxed or fully using rebound technique at all..
For one, I said he doesn't often use the free stroke (neither do Virgil Donati or Thomas Lang).

Believe me though-- he and said drummers are still relaxed when they play. There is no way that they achieve their speed and control without playing relaxed. The thing to understand is that they keep their fingers securely on the stick, but it's done in a relaxed manner. There is still rebound, but they are using the back three fingers to control the rebound and facilitate the movement of the wrist (and forearm for Moeller).

The free stroke is great on snare for successive singles at slower to moderate speeds using full strokes (or for, say, fast rebounded strokes on ride in French position at low stroke heights-- 1e& 2e& 3e& etc.), but for general playing around the kit, the free stroke is simply not as versatile. You don't have the luxury of a lot of "snare" rebound on the edge of the hi-hat, toms, crashes, bell of the ride, etc., so it's important to be proficient at having a more locked grip (but still relaxed) technique. This is also critical for playing grooves with ghost notes. Watch David Garibaldi for example--

http://drummerworld.com/Clinic/David_Garibaldivacci.html

Practicing the free stroke has its value for sure, but I believe it's important to WATCH Mangini and analyze his technique if you want to get somewhere with his method. And I'll state again-- he is relaxed. If he were not, he'd have all kinds of health issues with the hands/forearms, but he doesn't.

[centralzeke]

I disagree because Mangini's method doesn't only work correctly with his "locked grip technique". It's more the concept of muscle memory to the extreme. And saying the free stroke isn't versatile around the kit is simply ridiculous. It will help out your kit playing more than any other technique.

[DrummerBen1]

So from what I've seen here, you don't need to move the tempo at all.
You can stay at 100 bpm and do it for 2 or more hours for months and still get amazing results when you play fast again, right?
It's basically because we dont spend enough time practicing at a slow tempo for a long enough time... and it helps us when we're trying to play faster tempos because when we slow it down, we focus alot more on the motion.

[Jeff Almeyda]

It's interesting to note here that Mangini doesn't appear to use the free stroke very often.

Take a close look at his hands here--

http://mikemangini.com/new_site_2006/Video/HypBerklee/NofingBlast.mov

http://mikemangini.com/new_site_2006/Video/HypBerklee/Crow138.mov

They're brief clips, but if you look at his right hand, he's doing controlled strokes with a relaxed locked grip (the fingers are controlling the rebound by staying wrapped around the stick in a relaxed manner while the wrist facilitates the strokes-- he calls this his "wrist technique").

I feel if you want to be on the path with Mike's method, it would be good to take his technique into consideration when starting slowly.

I see what you're saying but frankly, I don't "use" the free stroke around the kit either, The key benefit from working with this technique is the increased relaxation and development of the wrist stroke reflex action.

And to say he doesn't employ a free stroke technique is incorrect as well. In RK Vol 1 Page 60 he states: "Always play down/up. With a "down-up" sequence, gravity helps on the way down and "drumhead-bounce" helps on the way back up."

That sure sounds like a free stroke to me.

His wrist technique incorporates the "down-up" philosophy as well. He is only playing down, the bounce is bringing the stick back up. The only way to play WITHOUT employing the free stroke is to deliberately use the wrist to raise and lower the stick or to use a whipping motion. Mangini does not use a whip for those fast runs and you'll never go fast moving the stick up and down with the wrist so free stroke it is. Yes, he goes somewhere else with it than Morello did but they both start on the same "free stroke" page.

The biggest difference that I can see with Mangini is that he doesn't employ traditional finger technique for his extended fast runs. He claims it hurts his hands.

[JesB]

Yeah Manginis practice techique really rocks. Im using it too. Even great finnish drummer Kai Hahto(Wintersun,Rottensound) uses those techiques to speed himself up.

[JWM]

I see what you're saying but frankly, I don't "use" the free stroke around the kit either, The key benefit from working with this technique is the increased relaxation and development of the wrist stroke reflex action.

And to say he doesn't employ a free stroke technique is incorrect as well. In RK Vol 1 Page 60 he states: "Always play down/up. With a "down-up" sequence, gravity helps on the way down and "drumhead-bounce" helps on the way back up."

That sure sounds like a free stroke to me.

His wrist technique incorporates the "down-up" philosophy as well. He is only playing down, the bounce is bringing the stick back up. The only way to play WITHOUT employing the free stroke is to deliberately use the wrist to raise and lower the stick or to use a whipping motion. Mangini does not use a whip for those fast runs and you'll never go fast moving the stick up and down with the wrist so free stroke it is. Yes, he goes somewhere else with it than Morello did but they both start on the same "free stroke" page.

The biggest difference that I can see with Mangini is that he doesn't employ traditional finger technique for his extended fast runs. He claims it hurts his hands.
You're absolutely right about everything you said... good stuff and kudos!

When thinking about the free stroke, I had to take myself back to when I first started playing at 11 years old (this was about 15 years ago). My drum teacher, Rick Steed of Riverside, California was a student of Freddie Gruber, and now that I think about it, I remember our first lesson being about rebound principals and the downward motion. Mr. Famularo has come to call it the free stroke, which is a good title, but that title wasn't used to describe what my teacher taught me... but it was the same principal (Rick also had me working on Moeller accents early on as well). I had only really watched Dom's Vic Firth lessons once over, but after reviewing them again last night, everything is definitely spot on. He's such a great teacher. These are things I've been doing for years myself because I had a good teacher to start with, but I guess I hadn't thought of it in more fundamental terms for a VERY long time!

And I think you're right on in your observation of Mangini's fast runs. Would you say it's still Gladstone because of the downward wrist motion? I think I've managed to grasp his technique a good bit for how he does his low stroke singles, and it seems to be a modified Gladstone/free stroke approach where as you said, there isn't that traditional finger technique such as what Mr. Verdi does. I'm pretty sure he uses a kind of relaxed locked grip approach to control the rebound of the stick for the wrist movement. Instead of using the fingers to move the stick, he uses them (the back three that is) to control the rebound instead of creating it. The wrist is the thing creating the rebound... Hmmm... when you think about it, it's almost a more pure example of the free stroke?

Sorry for the long post!

[Pearlrules]

So, in order to maintain Mangini's grip and technique... do you have to practice at a slow tempo (90bpm) doing 16th notes in a "locked-grip" like how Mike plays? (and you have to be relaxed while doing this of course).

[JWM]

So, in order to maintain Mangini's grip and technique... do you have to practice at a slow tempo (90bpm) doing 16th notes in a "locked-grip" like how Mike plays? (and you have to be relaxed while doing this of course).
I'm sure Knevildrummer will have some fantastic tips, but it's definitely important to understand rebound before anything else. If you understand the downward motion of the wrist and how it creates rebound with a relaxed grip (i.e. you "follow" the sticks' rebound back up after the "throw down"), you'll be well on your way. I personally recommend keeping all fingers on the stick at all times, no matter the stroke height. Thomas Lang talks about this in his last MD interview as well, and clearly Mangini does the same. In my experience, the stroke height determines just how much you will need to open your hand while keeping the fingers on the stick as it travels back up. At faster speeds, you'll need to "cradle" the stick more and bring it in closer to the inside of your hand...

When Mangini is doing his fast runs of single strokes, they are low strokes. The faster the stick goes, the lower the stroke, and the more we have to control the rebound of the stick. With that said however, the low stroke can and should also be practiced at slower speeds with the grip and motion we intend to use. In my experience, there isn't much rebound at first with the low stroke height, but I still keep a relaxed locked grip. But I think this is valuable, because we also begin to really develop the grip properly for the higher speeds. In the case of Mangini, it is a relaxed locked grip where the back three fingers are snug on the stick (with perhaps even the middle in a "curled" position while the last two fingers are a little less so). This allows him to control the rebound as he's making the downward motion, thus facilitating the wrist. As he describes on his site, it is primarily a wrist technique. But it's very important to understand rebound and playing without tension, yet another reason why Mangini suggests starting at very slow tempos for long periods of time.

BTW, do you know about the Moeller stroke? Does any of this make sense? =)~

[bigfatbobby]

I have now practiced this excercise for four days. The first day I practiced 90 minutes each hand at 120 bpm, next day 16th notes with both hands at 100 bpm for 90 minutes, third day 16th notes at 120 bpm for 90 minutes and fourth day 16th notes for 90 minutes at 133 bpm. The second day I practiced on a pillow, but later that day I saw that some guys, and Mangini himself would not recommend practicing this excercise on pillows. So the first, third and fourth time I prcticed on my pad. I haven't played at a kit yet, since I'm on a summervacation, but when I'm playing on pillows and other stuff I can hit on, I already feel that my technique has developed. But how does Mangini manage to play over 200 bpm? Has he increased the tempo for each day and at last he made it about 300 bpm?

[DrummerBen1]

I have now practiced this excercise for four days. The first day I practiced 90 minutes each hand at 120 bpm, next day 16th notes with both hands at 100 bpm for 90 minutes, third day 16th notes at 120 bpm for 90 minutes and fourth day 16th notes for 90 minutes at 133 bpm. The second day I practiced on a pillow, but later that day I saw that some guys, and Mangini himself would not recommend practicing this excercise on pillows. So the first, third and fourth time I prcticed on my pad. I haven't played at a kit yet, since I'm on a summervacation, but when I'm playing on pillows and other stuff I can hit on, I already feel that my technique has developed. But how does Mangini manage to play over 200 bpm? Has he increased the tempo for each day and at last he made it about 300 bpm?

Why would you practice with just your weak hand?
Aren't you supposed to go at a slow tempo evenly with both of your hands?

[Lance69]

how the hell are u supposed to get fast by playing slow?? lol
Well for me, I'm stuck around 170bpm (doing 16th notes) so I'm practicing playing at 165bpm. Why would I go all the way back down to 90bpm if I wanna get faster than 170bpm doing 16th notes cleanly?? it doesnt really make sense to me...
Like if YOU couldnt do 170bpm cleanly, then you would go down a few beats, right? (maybe 160 or 165).... why would you go down to 90 or 100bpm? Iike i understand the point that its to make your strokes as even and as clean as possible but HOW THE HELL DOES IT MAKE YOU GO FASTER?? lol how would it make you get faster than 170bpm when you're not even close to practicing at that tempo at all?

Okay well, anyway, would you recommend playing at a fast tempo (lets say.. 170bpm) for like 1 hour... AND a slow tempo as well (like 100bpm) for like an hour and a half... would that help? (i think it is, because you're practicing on making your strokes even as possible BUT you're also practicing at a fast tempo so you're used to the fastness?)

What do you guys think????

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

how the hell are u supposed to get fast by playing slow?? lol

What do you guys think????

The point is that you programme the perfect motion into your system by means of extreme repetition. With that much programming, you will naturally get faster regardless of what speed you're practicing. It's easier to obtain a perfect motion whilst practicing slowly and as I've already stipulated, if you're practicing a perfect motion then speed will naturally prgress.

Remember the quality of the stroke is more important than the speed of the stroke.

[NUTHA JASON]

Remember the quality of the stroke is more important than the speed of the stroke.

this becomes particularly important at higher speeds. its a common mistake. drummers see something, begin practicing it, see some result, speed up and pat themselves on the back that they can play it fast and believe that, having made such a gain in a short time, they will soon be playing even faster. but unless they have the motion perfect they will soon hit a physical barrier and go no faster. they will then have to go back and relearn the whole thing only this time they will also have to unlearn the bad motion.


that said it is also true that certain motions cannot function properly below certain speeds. imagine trying to learn how to sprint at walking speed. the sprint body movement can only 'kick' in when both feet are occasionally off the ground...and this means running. maybe not at top speed but certainly there is a lower limit to speeds at which sprinting can be practiced. so too with drumming.

j

[The.GuessWho]

It is actually possible to practice sprinting at walking speed and even slower... It is something all great sprinters have had to do for ages (as boring and repetetive as these exercises might be ^^).

The idea is really to do whatever you want to "learn" as slow and exact as possible for a long period of time (this has been mentioned like ten times already in this thread, I know) without starting to increase the thempo after the second day. This may seem very hard because no obvious results can be seen, but after a while you will really "own" the thing you were practicing which is worth far more than being able to do it "quite fast and quite accurate" in a shorter amount of time, IMO.

[NUTHA JASON]

actually it is not possible to practice sprinting at walking speed because the muscle actions and limb motions are different, the ankle tendon does not store energy and return it, the hips move differently, the arm balance motions are not there because the inertia of swiftly moving arms does not come into play until certain speeds are reached. the body's center of gravity is lower and further back in walking than with sprinting where it is more of a controlled forward 'fall'. that is why i chose this illustration.
take heel toe constant release...it must be practiced slowly for a while (well you also have to walk before you run) but the foot will only begin to float above the pedal at a certain speed and no slower.once the float occours then the body rests easier on the stool and the true heel-toe motion can be accurately practiced.

j

[The.GuessWho]

Sorry, but it IS possible to reproduce the aspects you mentioned at walking speed (not while walking of course). I used to do this myself and I know quite a large number of people who still do. And they are successful (read that as being under the top five in Germany/Europe in whatever thing they are doing), so it's highly unlikely that this doesn't wok in athletics, too ;)
Not being able to do something slowly usually just means that one doesn't have enough control of one's body (except if there are other things involved => playing slower than your pedal tensions allows is impossible...)

[Jeff Almeyda]

how the hell are u supposed to get fast by playing slow?? lol
Well for me, I'm stuck around 170bpm (doing 16th notes) so I'm practicing playing at 165bpm. Why would I go all the way back down to 90bpm if I wanna get faster than 170bpm doing 16th notes cleanly?? it doesnt really make sense to me...
Like if YOU couldnt do 170bpm cleanly, then you would go down a few beats, right? (maybe 160 or 165).... why would you go down to 90 or 100bpm? Iike i understand the point that its to make your strokes as even and as clean as possible but HOW THE HELL DOES IT MAKE YOU GO FASTER?? lol how would it make you get faster than 170bpm when you're not even close to practicing at that tempo at all?

Okay well, anyway, would you recommend playing at a fast tempo (lets say.. 170bpm) for like 1 hour... AND a slow tempo as well (like 100bpm) for like an hour and a half... would that help? (i think it is, because you're practicing on making your strokes even as possible BUT you're also practicing at a fast tempo so you're used to the fastness?)

What do you guys think????


Ok, Relax. Let's go over this one more time:

We are "cleaning up" each individual stroke, so that it is being produced with minimal effort and maximum effectiveness. What do I mean by that?

Sit if front of a mirror and play alternating 16th notes at 90 bpm. Look at the arc formed by your right (dominant) hand and stick and they go through the air. Now look at the left. Do you notice any difference? In every student I have ever seen, the right hand arc is MUCH cleaner than the left.

So, if you can't even do it properly at a slow tempo, what happens when you try to go fast? That inefficient form is STILL THERE. It limits you and causes you to tense up when you try to play fast.

The method that we have been talking about is an efficient way or "programming" new CORRECT motions into your system.

You are also working the muscles with this method, much more than you may realize.

Here's an example to help illustrate my point. When you work out to get stronger, Do you just load up the bar with all the weight you can do and try to get it up any old way for one rep? If you do, you've probably hurt yourself already. A correct workout routine only RARELY gets near max poundages.

Similar thing here. The level of intensity when you are playing slow is high enough to produce a "training effect" yet low enough to ensure proper form.

Hope this helps.

[Jeff Almeyda]

actually it is not possible to practice sprinting at walking speed because the muscle actions and limb motions are different, the ankle tendon does not store energy and return it, the hips move differently, the arm balance motions are not there because the inertia of swiftly moving arms does not come into play until certain speeds are reached. the body's center of gravity is lower and further back in walking than with sprinting where it is more of a controlled forward 'fall'. that is why i chose this illustration.
take heel toe constant release...it must be practiced slowly for a while (well you also have to walk before you run) but the foot will only begin to float above the pedal at a certain speed and no slower.once the float occours then the body rests easier on the stool and the true heel-toe motion can be accurately practiced.

j

I see what you're saying. I find that certain tecniques require certain tempos for them to flow best. If I am playing a certain accent pattern at 100 BPM, I may use formal wrist technique but at 150 BPM, I use a whipping technique.

I like to use a horse's gaits as an analogy. The horse can walk, trot, canter, and gallop.
Each gait requires a different "technique" and each gait is best adapted for a certain speed. If a horse tried to trot really fast, it would drop from exhaustion. A horse cannot gallop slowly either so there is a basis in nature for this idea.,

[NUTHA JASON]

yes as terry pratchet puts it:
You can work out how much energy a kangaroo uses when it makes a jump, count how many jumps it makes in a day, and deduce a lower limit on its daily energy requirements. ... Do the sums, and you find that the kangaroo's daily energy requirement is about ten times as big as anything it can get from its food. Conclusion: kangaroos can't jump. Since they can't jump, they can't find food, so they're all dead.
Strangely, Australia is positively teeming with kangaroos, who fortunately cannot do physics.


so there are energy saving (like springs) devices built into the physics of all bodies (the kagaroo's tail is just an obvious one), but so too in your hands and arms. these devices only begin to take effect under certain conditions of speed or stress and so require certain speeds or stresses to be activated and then practiced. it is a drumming skill tobe able to identify those threshold speeds for each new exercise and once the walking basics are understood the sprinting, albeit at the lowest speed at the threshold, can begin.

and to my argumentative dear The.GuessWho this also applies very much to the human body when it is sprinting. i have as a special on my education degree, sports sciences so i do know what i am talking about. the truth is we all know you can 'sort of practice sprinting' at slow paces but the balances and physics of true sprinting do not come into play at low speeds; only when you cross over a threshold speed where both feet are off the ground at some stage of the sprint cycle, only then can your body begin to truly learn how to use that kangaroo energy.

j

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Next thing you know, Granny Weatherwax will be coming out of the woodwork...

[Lance69]

Thanks Knevildrummer, Mediocorefunkybeat, and Jason!
Yea, that helped alot. Thanks alot you guys!

But anyway, I have two questions....
1. Would you recommend playing at a fast tempo (lets say.. 170bpm) for like 1 hour... AND a slow tempo as well (like 100bpm) for like an hour and a half... would that help? (i think it is, because you're practicing on making your strokes even as possible BUT you're also practicing at a fast tempo so you're used to the fastness?)

2.Will my left hand improve while practicing at this slow tempo?? would you suggest that I play with just my left hand at 100bpm for 100 minutes instead of using both to get my left hand up there with my right hand??

THANKS ALOT you guys!
I appreciate it!

[Class A Drummer]

i just got my metranome a couple days ago.

I put it at 100 bpm and started doing doubles. I did this while watching kiss of the dragon. I was originaly going to do it for just 30 mins to he how it was, but when i realized i had been going for a while i figured that i might as well do all 90 mins.

I can tell it has already taken effect. A few mins after i finished, i was going faster then i had ever done b4 (as far as I know).

I will try and continue doing this a few days a week.

[finnhiggins]

I can tell it has already taken effect. A few mins after i finished, i was going faster then i had ever done b4 (as far as I know).


Don't assume it's some kind of instant miracle-cure, a lot of people notice this "I'm faster when I've practiced properly!" effect when they first start doing solid practice with a metronome. The reason for this is that you actually get a proper, consistent warm-up before letting loose and it just lets you play what you can already do more effectively. Learning new stuff and developing new speed does take some time and consistent effort.

[NUTHA JASON]

i second that. when this mangini thread started i decided to give the principle a go and use it to really learn the stevesmith/gruber constant release heel-toe method. since last week i have been doing 30 minute sessions (sometimes i've done two sessions) a day starting at 1/4=110b/min and playing 8ths and increasing the speed by just 4b/min a day. while doing so i also keep my left foot playing 4ths on the hat and then to take away boredom i do all sorts of handwork ontop of that. it has been magnificent.

what i noticed was that at about the ten minute mark my leg starts to feel sore (i've always been a heel up player so my shin muscles aren't used to raising my toes). now in the past i would stop the exercise and do something else but, because of this thread i push on through and discovered to my happy surprise that after 20 minutes the pain disappears and that i also can just let the foot run on automatic like an ostinato and i can do all sorts of crazy stuff ontop of it and not lose the beat.

in conclusion, like finn says, you really warm up into the exercise, not only in muscle strength but also in mental strength.

yesterday i experimented to see the results of more than a weeks worth of mangnini. i put the metronome at 150 (after a good warm up at 120 for 20 minutes) and played 8ths perfectly and then started trying things like accenting and leaving strokes out. it was all good. i highly recommend this proceedure for conquering things like ostinatos and the really important rudiments. when i can do 180b/min i'll move on to other things. give each one about 3-4 weeks ...here's my list:


open rolling
a latin ostinato
double bass rolling
triplets a la bonzo with cross overs

[DrummerBen1]

What are you guys doing??
You DONT need to move the tempo at all.
Just leave it at 100bpm, and you can be doing this months on end and still be getting amazing results.
Why would you wanna move the tempo up? The whole point is to practice slow so that you can make it so your chops are as even as possible.
When you're practicing, you should be practicing at fast tempos but you should also be practicing at slow tempos as well so that you can get your strokes even and precise but you can also have that fast feel as well. It all depends really. Just make sure you practice different tempos. It makes sense.
You'll get faster if you play slower!
You know what they say, the snail beat the rabbit in the end or whatever it was.. cant remember lol but do you get my point?
Yea I understand that some things need to be practiced at a slow tempo and then you gradually build up, but if it's like... a single stroke roll that you're working on, then just put it at 100bpm and just LEAVE THE TEMPO ALONE!!

[belgianvomit]

I've started the practice yesterday with my two feet and it's already improving. Before i did the practise my left foot was always more quiet than my right and now it's getting the same volume.

[NUTHA JASON]

What are you guys doing??
You DONT need to move the tempo at all.
Just leave it at 100bpm, and you can be doing this months on end and still be getting amazing results.
Why would you wanna move the tempo up? The whole point is to practice slow so that you can make it so your chops are as even as possible.
When you're practicing, you should be practicing at fast tempos but you should also be practicing at slow tempos as well so that you can get your strokes even and precise but you can also have that fast feel as well. It all depends really. Just make sure you practice different tempos. It makes sense.
You'll get faster if you play slower!
You know what they say, the snail beat the rabbit in the end or whatever it was.. cant remember lol but do you get my point?
Yea I understand that some things need to be practiced at a slow tempo and then you gradually build up, but if it's like... a single stroke roll that you're working on, then just put it at 100bpm and just LEAVE THE TEMPO ALONE!!

i disagree. very slowly increasing the tempo over a few weeks is beneficial. first of all playing something at 100b/min for half an hour (lets say something in 8ths) means that you will get 6000 reps but at 120 you get 7200 reps. incresed speed means more reps. not huge speed increases mind. then also there are different types of muscle strength. we drummers want to use the 'fast twitch type exercises = lots of reps, light weight and fast speed. slow exercise programs the motion in but then we need to gradually move from muscle programming to muscle fitness. and kill both birds with one stone.
it comes down to being sensible. evaluate each exercise before during and after. watch the errors and be resonable about any gains made. also i occasionally go right back to slow speeds anyway.

j

[Jeff Almeyda]

what i noticed was that at about the ten minute mark my leg starts to feel sore (i've always been a heel up player so my shin muscles aren't used to raising my toes). now in the past i would stop the exercise and do something else but, because of this thread i push on through and discovered to my happy surprise that after 20 minutes the pain disappears and that i also can just let the foot run on automatic like an ostinato and i can do all sorts of crazy stuff ontop of it and not lose the beat.



I've noticed the same thing, you need to push through that barrier to reach the next level of relaxation on the other side. The key point is to know the difference between the initial cramping and true tension.

This is where modern practice techniques have differed from the traditional techniques. In Stick Control, Stone suggests "Stopping at the slightest hint of tension". One might assume this initial cramping was that tension, stop and thus never reach the benefits on the other side. It's not the same as tension from trying to play too fast and so one needs to be aware of that.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Thanks Knevildrummer, Mediocorefunkybeat, and Jason!
Yea, that helped alot. Thanks alot you guys!

But anyway, I have two questions....
1. Would you recommend playing at a fast tempo (lets say.. 170bpm) for like 1 hour... AND a slow tempo as well (like 100bpm) for like an hour and a half... would that help? (i think it is, because you're practicing on making your strokes even as possible BUT you're also practicing at a fast tempo so you're used to the fastness?)

2.Will my left hand improve while practicing at this slow tempo?? would you suggest that I play with just my left hand at 100bpm for 100 minutes instead of using both to get my left hand up there with my right hand??

THANKS ALOT you guys!
I appreciate it!

Stick with the slow speeds for 6 weeks at 4x weekly. You'll be amazed at how much faster you get. You'll blow 170 away and it will be easy not a strain on your hands.

Your left hand will get plenty of work just doing the alternating strokes also. For this exercise, stick with both hands.

Now, get busy!!!

[centralzeke]

So would a good exercise to start with be doing 16ths at 70 BPM at half stroke height for 90 minutes?

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

That would be a good place to start. Just make sure every single stroke is perfect.

[d.c.drummer]

Don any thing that long will make you a pro, for crying out loud...

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

And how's that supposed to help us DC?

[Pearlrules]

If I practice low strokes (1 and a half inches off the pad) really slowly (96bpm), will I be able to play fast at that height at top speed?
Because I normally play half-strokes (3 and a half inches off the pad) and yea... it'll just be shocking to see if my hands will actually do that!... eventually.

[Timmay]

Thanks Knevildrummer, Mediocorefunkybeat, and Jason!
Yea, that helped alot. Thanks alot you guys!

But anyway, I have two questions....
1. Would you recommend playing at a fast tempo (lets say.. 170bpm) for like 1 hour... AND a slow tempo as well (like 100bpm) for like an hour and a half... would that help? (i think it is, because you're practicing on making your strokes even as possible BUT you're also practicing at a fast tempo so you're used to the fastness?)

2.Will my left hand improve while practicing at this slow tempo?? would you suggest that I play with just my left hand at 100bpm for 100 minutes instead of using both to get my left hand up there with my right hand??

THANKS ALOT you guys!
I appreciate it!

Ok, something about Muscle Memory in general (what all this here is about):

Your muscles learn by repetition, no matter what kind of motion. If you're doing a different motion every time, your technique won't become better but worse.

Now, if you spend 90 mins a day at tempo 100 (with perfect technique), the 60 mins at 170 (with inconsistent technique) will at least reduce the benefit you got from the 90 mins, as your re-teaching your muscles to do a different motion every time...

[Stijnn1990]

Isn't it better to play Right and left at the same time? So you don't play alternating singles but this:

R R R R R R R
L L L L L L L


That way you see exact what youre left hand is doing wrong or if youre technique is the same at both youre hands

[NUTHA JASON]

i do both.

it is a good idea to balance your practice of both linear (one thing hit at a time) and unison (different instruments being played precisely at the same time) patterns.

j

[Drum101]

Personally, I find it's most efficient to practice this method while listening to a DJ mix. It stays in the same tempo, and generally can last up to 90 minutes. Not only does it allow you to practice in the appropriate time length, but the consistency in the tempo allows you to practice timing efficiently. I find that the results are much easier to obtain that way (I'm now able to keep a latin ostinato while typing this message after the first 20 minutes), and makes practice much less boring.

Grooving to a song is always the best way to develop technique. :)

[timebandit]

actually it is not possible to practice sprinting at walking speed because the muscle actions and limb motions are different, the ankle tendon does not store energy and return it, the hips move differently, the arm balance motions are not there because the inertia of swiftly moving arms does not come into play until certain speeds are reached. the body's center of gravity is lower and further back in walking than with sprinting where it is more of a controlled forward 'fall'. that is why i chose this illustration.
take heel toe constant release...it must be practiced slowly for a while (well you also have to walk before you run) but the foot will only begin to float above the pedal at a certain speed and no slower.once the float occours then the body rests easier on the stool and the true heel-toe motion can be accurately practiced.

j
Have you ever tried running in place. Your legs and arms will move as fast as you allow them to, but with no forward momentum.I'm not just try'n to debate ya NJ, just not to sure of the comparison.

[NUTHA JASON]

its still transferable. running on the spot to become a better sprinter is like doing thos dom famularo hand exercices so that you can be fast at single strokes.

j

[Stijnn1990]

What exercises are that from dom famularo?

[NUTHA JASON]

here:
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html

go down to the one with the title:
Finger Technique: Using Fingers in the French Grip

j

[DrummerBen1]

So this technique is the same sort of idea with the turtle and the rabbit.
The turtle wins in the end! lol

[Pearlrules]

ookay guys..

I got a problem..

I've been practicing this since August and I've been sticking to a 3-4 inch height and I've been practicing doing this at 90-100bpm for several hours a day. so yea my problem is, is that whenever I try and get a high score on the drumometer, my stick-height is really low to the pad and my left hand is coming down at a different angle (and I've spent alot of time with my left hand and have watched it alot to make sure its a clean stroke!)
so yea basically everything is screwed up and I'm not seeing very many results which is really ticking me off

can someone give me some advice! thanks.

if someone could demonstrate it with a video that would be EVEN BETTER!! hah thats pretty sad, but I would appreciate it. thanks.

[Hillman]

For slowness with awareness check out Trager or Mentastics. I use to study these...

[Hillman]

Come to think of it, I recall my private teacher in highschool giving me a jazz ride exercise invloving extremely slow motions (triplets @ m.m. 40 EACH TRIPLET NOTE!). My mentor Anil Sharma would practice this routine on a ride cymbal under a tree at band camp. I use to do it for 20 minutes or so, Very meditative and it helps your time.

It has to do with relaxation and awareness. There is lots written on the subject...other names that come to mind are the Alexander method (actors and singers traditionally) and Feldenkrais. All good stuff.

[tintin]

INFORMATION OVERLOAD!!!! LOL

i've just finished reading all these stuff, and its really motivating me to start first thing tomorrow! which i will. this forum is awesome man.

i was thinking of starting off with six-stroke roll at 100bpm
and then probably double pedaling around that range too

i'm expecting to see insane results by the end of the month! =D i'll try to practice daily

[Ian Ballard]

This method makes A LOT of sense. I try to encourage my students to play VERY simple things VERY slowly and for a VERY long time, so that they not only become automatic, but fluid and smooth.

There are no shortcuts to speed and precision.

One of my students is struggling with playing with a metronome. I suggested that he sit with the click on for at least 5 minutes, just listening to the click and letting his brain become automatic with the tempo. Then I told him to begin playing this very excersize. Generally starting at about 60, will not only help them develop a slow, steady mental picture of the time, but will also help them count time based on our clock system. Kinda practical. Anyway, next week I'll see how much he's improved. Then he can move onto 100 bpm.

Tonight, while I'm bored at work I'm going to spend most of my time playing doubles and singles in this very way... and Saturday when I get together with my group, I'll see how much it helps.

[tintin]

i just got done with my 90 min of double pedaling in semi quavers at 60bpm.

1. i realised how terribly inconsistent i am, though before doing this i could do speeds of about 195bpm
2. my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th toes of my right foot became numb lol, but not my left foot
3. you need a bloody lot of focus and concentration, i kept falling out of beat every other time.
4. it's very satisfying once u've completed the whole 90min.

this thread has been really useful to me man! i feel great now haha

[Pearlrules]

ookay guys..

I got a problem..

I've been practicing this since August and I've been sticking to a 3-4 inch height and I've been practicing doing this at 90-100bpm for several hours a day. so yea my problem is, is that whenever I try and get a high score on the drumometer, my stick-height is really low to the pad and my left hand is coming down at a different angle (and I've spent alot of time with my left hand and have watched it alot to make sure its a clean stroke!)
so yea basically everything is screwed up and I'm not seeing very many results which is really ticking me off

can someone give me some advice! thanks.

if someone could demonstrate it with a video that would be EVEN BETTER!! hah thats pretty sad, but I would appreciate it. thanks.

[ANIMALBEATS]

GERMAN LOW STROKES.


What the hell are german low strokes.?

[Jivi]

Low strokes in German grip?

[Wavelength]

I've been practicing this since August and I've been sticking to a 3-4 inch height and I've been practicing doing this at 90-100 bpm for several hours a day. My problem is, that whenever I try and get a high score on the drumometer, my stick-height is really low to the pad and my left hand is coming down at a different angle -- and I've spent alot of time with my left hand and have watched it alot to make sure its a clean stroke! I'm not seeing very many results which is really ticking me off.

Speed and control won't come in a couple of months. It appears you have some bad playing habits with faster strokes, and these will be difficult to unlearn. Just work on it slowly, ease the tempo up and be patient. I'd also suggest spending some time with quieter (around 2") and louder full strokes. Check out the Stick Control thread for some great advice.

[CheeseCake]

I have a couple of questions regarding this technique. First off, does it have to be all on one surface? Such as one day could I practice the motion on a pad, and the next a pillow? I like to keep my playing surfaces as varied as possibly, I would like to practice on the kit, but ninety minutes of sixteenths is simply unreasonably for the other people in my house. So in going back to the question, will I have the same desired effect and be able to translate it to kit playing? Also, say I practice for fourty-five minutes traditional grip and fourty-five minutes matched, will I still notice this great improvement? Or will the practice be to varied? Thanks in advance.

[CheeseCake]

I've just read a few more posts and realized that the pillow subject has already been addressed, but I would still like to ask the question. The reason behind this is that I think if I train myself to accomodate a pad's rebound and only a pad's rebound I will become too accustomed to the pad. I think that a pillow is a valid training method seeing as how you simply cannot rely on the rebound of some components of a drumkit. So to restate the question, can anyone tell me if they believe I should train for fourty-five minute halves, one on a pillow one on a pad? Or should I train one day on a pad, one day on a pillow? Or maybe I should even train one week on a pad one on a pillow. I realize no one will have a concrete answer to these questions, but I would love to hear your opinions. Thanks Again.

[X14Halo]

decided to start this method tonight. (been doing eighth notes on double bass at 100bpm for the past 60 minutes.) I was wondering.... if I did stuff with my hands (like double strokes) along with the feet, for 90 minutes, would that interfere with the feet or hands learning? should I do them separately or can I do them together? Was just asking because 90 minutes is quite a long time and I would like to get as much practice out of it as possible. I'm thinking of doing double bass along with double stokes on the hands one day, then the next day do some other combination, then repeat...for the rest of the week...for 6 weeks. What do you guys think?
edit: about 70 minutes in now...and my left inner ankle is hurting a little and the bottom of my feet are numbing....i hope this is normal... lol
edit: finished now... and I can definetely tell which of my feet is the weaker one. left ankle is all cramped up and right one is perfectly fine.

[Beat Spector]

I've just read a few more posts and realized that the pillow subject has already been addressed, but I would still like to ask the question. The reason behind this is that I think if I train myself to accomodate a pad's rebound and only a pad's rebound I will become too accustomed to the pad.

you are completeley right. Practice the pad AND practice the pillow or put towels or sheets over your toms? so you can practice around the drumkid but quietly?
that's what I tend to do when my brother's gotta do exames: i put towels and sheets all over my snare and toms + a small pillow attached to the beater of the bassdrum.
In this way can still hear my drums but i don't bug other people in the house., + got no rebound to count on. :-)


I think that a pillow is a valid training method seeing as how you simply cannot rely on the rebound of some components of a drumkit. So to restate the question, can anyone tell me if they believe I should train for fourty-five minute halves, one on a pillow one on a pad? Or should I train one day on a pad, one day on a pillow? Or maybe I should even train one week on a pad one on a pillow. I realize no one will have a concrete answer to these questions, but I would love to hear your opinions. Thanks Again.


a teacher told me once, and i stick to that: "work out your weak hand twice as much as your strong hand." I try to do so. Same goes for legs/feet versus arms/hands. The muscles in yr legs are (almost) twice as big as the ones in your arms. So when it comes to practicing rudiments and stuff with my feet: i (try to) spend twice as long doing them with my feet as i do with my arms.

Hence my opinion on your question: for each time you practice on a pad: practice twice on a pillow or a towel. Reason: a pad is, like you said 'easier' to pracitce on. Don't get used to that. Who knows when you gotta preform on a crappy drumset with crappy, bad tuned skins. You'll still be able to get down all your doubles and whatnot...and they'll still sound great.

You to devide you time? that's up to you: 1 day drumpad / 2 days pillow? maybe.
Or maybe you rather play 15 minutes drumpad and 30 minutes pillow in one day.
that's for you to decide. but an important thing is NOT to get bored.

[Jivi]

decided to start this method tonight. (been doing eighth notes on double bass at 100bpm for the past 60 minutes.) I was wondering.... if I did stuff with my hands (like double strokes) along with the feet, for 90 minutes, would that interfere with the feet or hands learning? should I do them separately or can I do them together? Was just asking because 90 minutes is quite a long time and I would like to get as much practice out of it as possible. I'm thinking of doing double bass along with double stokes on the hands one day, then the next day do some other combination, then repeat...for the rest of the week...for 6 weeks. What do you guys think?
edit: about 70 minutes in now...and my left inner ankle is hurting a little and the bottom of my feet are numbing....i hope this is normal... lol
edit: finished now... and I can definetely tell which of my feet is the weaker one. left ankle is all cramped up and right one is perfectly fine.

Thomas Lang practices boths hands and feet at the same time when doing rudiments and stuff. I started practicing like this a few weeks ago but im still not sure whether this will affect my precision and what not. Does anyone else have any opinions about this?

[X14Halo]

I'm not too worried about losing precision... I'm just worried that, say I do double bass on the feet along with triplets on my hands for 90 minutes, whenever I apply the double bass in real life...my hands will "want" to do triplets since that is what they are programmed to do. see what i'm saying? I'm just worried it may affect my independence abilities.

[PIPER561]

I take lessons from Mike every other wednesday at Berklee. And yah he is very hyper, but he definetly knows everything there is to know about drums and how the body reacts to playing drums. One thing he touhgt me was to use my eyes instead of my hears to see if I am playing something right. I know it sounds weird but it really works! If you just stare at your hand/foot on a certain pattern that your having trouble with and then just focus on just that limb with your eyes, you basically get it right the first time. Hope this helps!

[Jeff Almeyda]

I take lessons from Mike every other wednesday at Berklee. And yah he is very hyper, but he definetly knows everything there is to know about drums and how the body reacts to playing drums. One thing he touhgt me was to use my eyes instead of my hears to see if I am playing something right. I know it sounds weird but it really works! If you just stare at your hand/foot on a certain pattern that your having trouble with and then just focus on just that limb with your eyes, you basically get it right the first time. Hope this helps!

I will be meeting Mike at NAMM. I hope to con him into some private lessons. You're lucky to get to learn from him.

[aydee]

If you just stare at your hand/foot on a certain pattern that your having trouble with and then just focus on just that limb with your eyes, you basically get it right the first time. Hope this helps!

This has been the single biggest leap in all my practice routines in the last 10 years. It has made the biggest difference in understanding/feeling/sensing independence & accuracy.

It has also stretched my boundaries in terms of what I think I could play & what I could'nt.
18202
The mirror on the right against the wall, is something thats really helping me with my moeller stick heights, the eveness of my hand positions. and my foot movements. You can really correct your feet by looking at them side-on, a view you would never get otherwise. Once you focus on visual accuracy, you automatically associate it with feel & sound.

[raguer]

this is not mystake, most of the professional drummers have so hard practice rutines

i usually practice my rudiments for a couple of hours without stoping paradidles and many more just changing the speed and the control, drums have a lot in common lwith the sports is like get out and run everyday, one friend of mine so friend too from vinnie colaiuta told me one day about he leaves a gifth to vinnie and vinnie puts so discousting cause he stops to swear and practice his rudiments on a pad for hours, just practice makes u perfect but for another side try to be so musical.

[Rampage]

Does this technique work with every technique? for example moeller? if so would it be possible to practice not only 2 things as Lang suggests, but practice 3 things simultaneously? for example, playing moeller triplets with the hands, with 16ths on the feet, although this looks like two things could it be classed as three things as the polyrhytmic feel makes for a sort of co ordination exercise i think. anyway, any thoughts? or am i talking poo (it wouldnt be the first time)

cheers

[gusty]

Best thread I have ever seen on any internet forum. Very inspiaring. I can't decide whether I'll work on 16th notes on the double pedal or with my hands first (alternating strokes). Probably double pedal, I find it much less boring to practise. Thanks so much Jeff!

[oops]

In response to "does it work with every technique?"

It seems common sense that it would. If you're putting in that amount of time and effort into any technique (whilst making sure you execute it perfectly every time), you'll reap the benefits.

TIME+CORRECT PRACTICE = RESULTS (in my opinion)

I would only practice two parts together if you can be sure you're using correct technique with both your hands and feet. If you are, then go for it, it'll save time and energy in the long run.

+1 to using a mirror. At home I've got a little one by my practice pad. My ideal studio would have a full length one to catch me out on my posture.

[schist]

A question about the Mangini Practice Method:

I just started doing it a couple of days ago, as ankle-motion double bass 16th-notes at 40BPM. The intention is to get both feet even in volume and power. Each hit is pretty much consistent in volume and form, although sometimes each hit doesn't exactly 'bury' the click - there's still a microscopic bit of flam. The question is - is this in any way going to adversely affect the motion being programmed into my nervous system?

[Jeff Almeyda]

A question about the Mangini Practice Method:

I just started doing it a couple of days ago, as ankle-motion double bass 16th-notes at 40BPM. The intention is to get both feet even in volume and power. Each hit is pretty much consistent in volume and form, although sometimes each hit doesn't exactly 'bury' the click - there's still a microscopic bit of flam. The question is - is this in any way going to adversely affect the motion being programmed into my nervous system?

No, as long as your concentration level remains high. You are aware of the situation so you can correct it with dedicated practice and focused attention.

[Hercraft]

No, as long as your concentration level remains high. You are aware of the situation so you can correct it with dedicated practice and focused attention.

Hi Jeff!!

Sorry my english, Im from Argentina, I read all the threat from the beginning, and realice that was from 2006!!!

Now, it have been mora than two years from when you first start this post, so I was wondering if you could share with us how the method works in this two years.

You kept the schedule?

(again, sorry my english)

It was an awesome threat tho...

I was looking at practice rutines... Im still looking... some recomendations?

[dhan]

Awesome post! I've done this twice so far and I've noticed a huge improvement in my left hand. The muscle memory really does work and my single stroke speed and consistently vastly increase.

I thought 16ths at 100 bpm was a little too fast to really focus on what you're doing so I've been doing 16ths at 80 bpm, German Grip, Full strokes (almost vertical). I find going full really works my forearms the most because my left hand isn't used to doing full strokes with the wrist. It's a good way to get your wrist to exercise through its full range of motion. I also get bored so I vary my stroke height/dynamics every once in a while. I also practice on a towel to force the upstroke. Awesome!! Thanks. This and Stick Control ought to keep me busy for a good while.

[Hercraft]

Awesome post! I've done this twice so far and I've noticed a huge improvement in my left hand. The muscle memory really does work and my single stroke speed and consistently vastly increase.

I thought 16ths at 100 bpm was a little too fast to really focus on what you're doing so I've been doing 16ths at 80 bpm, German Grip, Full strokes (almost vertical). I find going full really works my forearms the most because my left hand isn't used to doing full strokes with the wrist. It's a good way to get your wrist to exercise through its full range of motion. I also get bored so I vary my stroke height/dynamics every once in a while. I also practice on a towel to force the upstroke. Awesome!! Thanks. This and Stick Control ought to keep me busy for a good while.

Hi dhan, how long exactly was your rutine going? and how much you practice?

example: every day, mon-sat one and a half hour for 4 weeks...

Thanks!

[Funky Crêpe]

In response to "does it work with every technique?"

It seems common sense that it would. If you're putting in that amount of time and effort into any technique (whilst making sure you execute it perfectly every time), you'll reap the benefits.

TIME+CORRECT PRACTICE = RESULTS (in my opinion)

I would only practice two parts together if you can be sure you're using correct technique with both your hands and feet. If you are, then go for it, it'll save time and energy in the long run.

+1 to using a mirror. At home I've got a little one by my practice pad. My ideal studio would have a full length one to catch me out on my posture.

recently ive switched from useing matched grip to traditional grip...PERMANANTLY..(well unless i really need it, its always good to have it)

im already comfortable with it but can't get the speed that i can get with my fingers with matched grip....(im switching because im just more comfortable with trad grip)...

would practising for 90mins a day 4times a week for 6 weeks really help me with speed??..
i know it can help with other things but SPEED??...dont you have to just repeatadly play fast for your muscles or what??.....because playing fast for 90mins is impossible!

[trysthedrummer]

This thread has been a good read. I'm going to try this too.

I'm going to have a little practice on the kit, then I will give this a go! See how long I can do it for!

...

[Jeff Almeyda]

recently ive switched from useing matched grip to traditional grip...PERMANANTLY..(well unless i really need it, its always good to have it)

im already comfortable with it but can't get the speed that i can get with my fingers with matched grip....(im switching because im just more comfortable with trad grip)...

would practising for 90mins a day 4times a week for 6 weeks really help me with speed??..
i know it can help with other things but SPEED??...dont you have to just repeatadly play fast for your muscles or what??.....because playing fast for 90mins is impossible!

Yes, it will help with speed because once the motion is ingrained in your muscle memory, speeding it up is easy. You have to realize that you must send a signal of ease to your brain. Your mind must associate the motion with a relaxed smooth feeling. This can't happen if you push it.

You must also develop the muscles. The muscles of the hand are small and cannot be blasted with high intensity techniques. Long slow sessions are the answer. Your hands will be exhausted after 90 mins of playing slowly believe me. Actually, you don't have to believe me, just try it yourself.

[Funky Crêpe]

Yes, it will help with speed because once the motion is ingrained in your muscle memory, speeding it up is easy. You have to realize that you must send a signal of ease to your brain. Your mind must associate the motion with a relaxed smooth feeling. This can't happen if you push it.

You must also develop the muscles. The muscles of the hand are small and cannot be blasted with high intensity techniques. Long slow sessions are the answer. Your hands will be exhausted after 90 mins of playing slowly believe me. Actually, you don't have to believe me, just try it yourself.

thanks....i spose i'll give it a try!

[aydee]

Jeff, so whats the longest Mike has practiced in a single session?

[Jeff Almeyda]

Jeff, so whats the longest Mike has practiced in a single session?

He told me that he made the greatest progress at 7 hrs a day of practice. This was broken up into two 3.5 hr sessions. This was done along with working out 3-4x weekly,

Sick, huh?

[aydee]

He told me that he made the greatest progress at 7 hrs a day of practice. This was broken up into two 3.5 hr sessions. This was done along with working out 3-4x weekly,

Sick, huh?


Beyond the scope of mortals, I think. I'm in the middle of of my 2nd hour right this minute and already feel the need for a break & distraction ( by getting online).

Ya, people forget how supremely fit he is with that powerful little 5 ft frame of his...not to speak of his strength of mind & resolve.

Good luck, to all of rest of us

[ranen]

I can't seem to do this my whole arms hurt after 45 mins of nonstop practicing

I'm doing 8th note and 16 note double strokes and I'm using my full wrists when I practice

[Wavelength]

I can't seem to do this my whole arms hurt after 45 mins of nonstop practicing

I'm doing 8th note and 16 note double strokes and I'm using my full wrists when I practice

Do it considerably slower, relax more and keep an eye on your technique and form.

[Phat_Rolls]

Very good thread! Inspiring!

I think I can fit a 90 minute practice into my day, but it's going to dig into a majority of my practice time. I practice 60 minutes in the morning and 90 minutes at night. Right now this is my routine in a nutshell...

Morning
Drum Beats / FIlls - 15 mins
Independence - 15 minutes
Weak Hand Development (Weaker Side - Dom Fam) - 30 minutes

Evening
Rudiments - 45 minutes
Control (Stick Control, Syncopation) - 45 minutes

I can possibly fit the 90 minutes per day in the evening but then I'm sacrificing rudiment practice and control. Is this worth it? Also, what would be the most beneficial to really work on? There's just so much to practice! Should I work on Moeller Strokes, Free Strokes? AHHH! Why aren't there more hours in the day! What do you suggest? At most I can practice 3 hours a day and that's really pushing it (90 minute morning, 90 minute evenings)... how should I schedule my time? Suggestions greatly appreciated.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I can't seem to do this my whole arms hurt after 45 mins of nonstop practicing

I'm doing 8th note and 16 note double strokes and I'm using my full wrists when I practice

1. Slow down.
2. Work up to 90 minutes by gradually increasing the time. It was take a couple of weeks, don't worry.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Very good thread! Inspiring!

I think I can fit a 90 minute practice into my day, but it's going to dig into a majority of my practice time. I practice 60 minutes in the morning and 90 minutes at night. Right now this is my routine in a nutshell...

Morning
Drum Beats / FIlls - 15 mins
Independence - 15 minutes
Weak Hand Development (Weaker Side - Dom Fam) - 30 minutes

Evening
Rudiments - 45 minutes
Control (Stick Control, Syncopation) - 45 minutes

I can possibly fit the 90 minutes per day in the evening but then I'm sacrificing rudiment practice and control. Is this worth it? Also, what would be the most beneficial to really work on? There's just so much to practice! Should I work on Moeller Strokes, Free Strokes? AHHH! Why aren't there more hours in the day! What do you suggest? At most I can practice 3 hours a day and that's really pushing it (90 minute morning, 90 minute evenings)... how should I schedule my time? Suggestions greatly appreciated.

I know how things can get overwhelming. Start with your wrist motion. Don't play any accents. Just get that motion burned into your nervous system. Everything else flows from that. If you have well-developed wrist motions, you are 80% of the way there.

You can use stick control or rudiments in this and you don't have to play the same pattern for 90 minutes. Remember, it's the motion that your body is learning, as long as you are keeping the motion consistent you can play many different things. Try the 1st page of stick control at 60 BPM for 90 minutes, for example.

Good luck and stay focused.

[Phat_Rolls]

I know how things can get overwhelming. Start with your wrist motion. Don't play any accents. Just get that motion burned into your nervous system. Everything else flows from that. If you have well-developed wrist motions, you are 80% of the way there.

You can use stick control or rudiments in this and you don't have to play the same pattern for 90 minutes. Remember, it's the motion that your body is learning, as long as you are keeping the motion consistent you can play many different things. Try the 1st page of stick control at 60 BPM for 90 minutes, for example.

Good luck and stay focused.

Would you start with full free-strokes?

Thanks for the tips

[Jeff Almeyda]

Would you start with full free-strokes?

Thanks for the tips


No, Frankly, I spent months working on the 2-50 exercise as full free strokes and it did not aid my drumming nearly as much as concentrated work on the lower strokes.

Mangini himself recommends working at the "midrange" of an exercise beofre going off to the extreme ends. In other words, practice 16ths at 100 BPM before u do them at 40 BPM or 220 BPM. This also applies to dynamics/stroke height.

Other qualified teachers may have their opinion but since I am communicating Mike's ideas here I will forward his thoughts on the matter..

[Phat_Rolls]

No, Frankly, I spent months working on the 2-50 exercise as full free strokes and it did not aid my drumming nearly as much as concentrated work on the lower strokes.

Mangini himself recommends working at the "midrange" of an exercise beofre going off to the extreme ends. In other words, practice 16ths at 100 BPM before u do them at 40 BPM or 220 BPM. This also applies to dynamics/stroke height.

Other qualified teachers may have their opinion but since I am communicating Mike's ideas here I will forward his thoughts on the matter..

Cool, thanks! I'll give it a go for the next 6 weeks and see where I'm at with good concentrated effort. Maybe I should do a before/after...

[superVomit]

Sorry for bringing up this old thread,
Just to draw your attention on a neuronal disease called "focal dystonia", which can occur when you do the same motion over and over. This trouble, if occures, simply disables your ability to do this motion properly (the neurones involved are kinda "burned out")

So, beware of that.. Drumming (and music, generally speaking) is about fun before everything !

[wolfie]

Its probably been said on this thead allready.
However matial artist have been doing it for ever.
I sometime call it 'Tai chi' speed.
It comes down to what i've allways said.
To become an advanced player you have to learn the basic first. that means really learn them. there is nothing these superman drummers do that anyone else can't do they just do it better, by putting the time in, in the first place.
everyone should try it, take a simple exersize like a linear thingy and practice it the way Mangini says and see what you get.

[superVomit]

agreed ! and sorry if Dystonia had already been got onto.
but for me, there's a gap between practising a single exercise for 20 or 30 minutes (which is pretty long, inasmuch as you have to work on many other things in order to improve your drumming), and doing it for hours. It's a pretty dangerous bet IMO, I wouldn't risk it.. I think you can achieve a sufficient technique (even for extreme metal drumming) without torturing yourself like that ;)

[gusty]

agreed ! and sorry if Dystonia had already been got onto.
but for me, there's a gap between practising a single exercise for 20 or 30 minutes (which is pretty long, inasmuch as you have to work on many other things in order to improve your drumming), and doing it for hours. It's a pretty dangerous bet IMO, I wouldn't risk it.. I think you can achieve a sufficient technique (even for extreme metal drumming) without torturing yourself like that ;)

Doing it for hours means the technique will be much better though. And its not torture as long as you build the time up slow. I started practising things like this a few years ago, at around 10 minutes per session...a little while ago i was at 90mins, dropped back down to 60 now. i really should bring it back up...

[sciomako]

How applicable is Mangini's RK 1 & 2 to a beginner?

(Is there any place I can find the TOC or some sample pages?)

[JPW]

How applicable is Mangini's RK 1 & 2 to a beginner?

(Is there any place I can find the TOC or some sample pages?)

The parts where he talks about how we learn and general practice tips like that are a good read for even a beginner, so are the counting-out-loud excercises. But other parts of it are a bit advanced, more like Lang's latest DVD. Especially when you think you are ready for some real 4-way coordination action check out his books.

[hunterde]

I used Mangini practice technique for 6 months and it must have caused my body to evolve because I grew another finger. I can really play fast now. I can’t what to see what comes next.

[bonhamdrummer123]

Would it be detrimental to start out using this with just one hand for the open/close technique, which I am trying to learn, because my right wrist has been hurting and I can't imagine that 90 straight minutes of playing with it will do any good, so for now I am going to lay off it with this practice method.