MOELLER METHOD

[dan]

I have some questions about it cause Im still not sure what it is exactly.

I read that for playing loud the stick is held more by the back fingers, does this mean that they still "dribble" the stick (if you want to play fast) but just that the front fingers are more relaxed?

Is it also about wrist + forearm movement up and down depending on where you want an accent?

[Elemental Nausea]

So what I know about the moeller technique: this technique comes from a guy called moeller who stole this technique from guys in the army who used it to make accent on their snare drums which they carrey around while marching.
It is a kind of whip movement in which you first raise your elbow and then just let it drop.
I mean it`s not such a complicated technique, everyone has to use it for playing, for example,
silent tabs or rolls on the snare and then making accents with your right or left hand.
you first have to start practicing very slowly and really make a big movement with your elbow, so that you get into the technique...the faster you play the smaller should the movement become... a good dvd for moeller technique demonstration would e.g. be dave weckel`s "A Natural Evolution"

[Big_Drummer]

hi guy
i use the moeller technique and i know how it works,
the principal about this is hold the sticks if you played matched with your middle finger and your thumb, the rest of your fingers keep relaxed, if you play traditional grip you have to know that the pressure is in your thumb and is a very light pressure.
The science in this technique is to use your arm and wrist for slow movements and exagerate the move, when you make faster moves you have to use only your wrist, and fingers, i dont any use my fingers at all, just wrist, cause i use so much the rebound and that allows me to use less energy.
natural evolution is far away the best dvd about that or you can purchase the jim chapin book advanced technique for the modern drummer. If you have some request write me at talento_innato1@hotmail.com

[konaboy]

The Steve Smith video Drumset technique and history of the u.s. beat is another good video that shows how to do it really well. I found the double dvd online for something like $34.99 my local sam ash and guitar center wanted $60. It's a great video! Shows other really cool grooves and approaches to playing that are really worth the money!
I'm working on developing that technique, it takes time and practice. Time is the one thing that seems to be lacking lately. Oh well practice when you can.


Kona

[funked_up]

its all about 'playing down'. throw it down, let it bounce back up, that is what dom famularo said. haha. it worked for me, so go try that if you havent already.

[dan]

its all about 'playing down'. throw it down, let it bounce back up, that is what dom famularo said. haha. it worked for me, so go try that if you havent already.

Ive been doing that but I didnt know it was part of the moeller tech.. thought it was part of every technique out there :)

[Raymond Bloom]

The Steve Smith video Drumset technique and history of the u.s. beat is another good video that shows how to do it really well.
yep, in my oppinion, one of the best explanations

[Bashkin]

Hello 2 you all Drummers of the world.
Can any body explain some more about this method of movement please ?
and /or post some working methods and exercise rutines
thanks a lot
R.

[User420]

Hey Bashkin. I started pursuing an answer to those questions myself fairly recently, so I'm happy for the discussion opportunity. As a starting point, you might check out Vic Firth's "cyberlesson" by Dom Femularo featuring Jim Chapin (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html) (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html%29). Chapin was a student of Sam Moeller in the late thirties and is regarded now as the primary exponent of Moeller's methods. Chapin has a book called "advanced techniques for the modern drummer" in which he presents exercises for the development of the technique.

I believe this is the same technique that's also been called "idle hand high" (and fellow readers please correct me if I'm wrong) and was used by rudimental drummers even before Moeller's time. The basic gist is that your arm is actually made up of a series of levers wtihin levers, functioning with some independence. For instance, if your forearm rises and falls on the quarter note pulse, your wrist (as the smaller lever) can play the eighth note divisions between the quarters. This is a technique that most modern drummers often use intuitively for ride and hihat work. Basically, it's a matter of dividing up the notes according to relative dynamic level and allowing larger (slower) muscles like your arms to handle the louder notes, while your wrists and finally your fingers play progressively faster and quieter notes in between. That said, they're obviously not totally independent, and so the "trick" of the technique is in maintaining control and coordination throughout this stroke.

I've found that a good exercise to work on my control across the various sound levels of this stroke is to play hand-to-hand sixteenths while accenting every other stroke (R l r L R l r L). I play this at different tempos and increase until I can no longer maintain solid contact with the stick throughout the stroke. Paradiddles and any other diddle rudiments are also great for getting the fingers involved. If you're mainly a set player, you may find that your lead hand already knows exactly what to do, in which case you can bring the weaker hand along by studying the movements of the stronger hand. Anyhow, hope this helps a bit. Happy drumming.

[loop]

Hi, guys...!!!

People....i want to get "The Moeller Technique book"...or copy.
I did search with EMULE but i did not get luck.
Thx for any help...
loop.-

[Rudy McRudster]

Well you could search in Sam Goody. They generally have a lot of technique books, but if you want my opinion I'd invest the time and money to find a teacher to help you. Moeller technique is far from easy and it helps to be able to see it first-hand.

[RudimentalDrummer]

Well you could search in Sam Goody. They generally have a lot of technique books, but if you want my opinion I'd invest the time and money to find a teacher to help you. Moeller technique is far from easy and it helps to be able to see it first-hand.

??????? What's this Moeller Techniques you guys are talking about ... care to give me more details !

[GoMan]

To rudimental drummer....

I studied it from the Dave Weckl video and the Steve Smith DVD and never really got it checked for form so im no authority on this, but...

Its the technique that... well you have play a stoke, but then after your main stroke, the rebound will allow you to have more strokes that are unaccented. Dave Weckl says this is not upstroke down stroke but i guess i didnt know what that was in the first place. Well anyway you move your arm in a way that you can milk the most amound of clean rebounds from your initial stroke. If you are playing traditional grip, which I do, youre hand will curl up towards the right side of the drum as you rewind for your next grip... I practice this with triplets so my arm is all the way down on the left when i get the first stroke, and I wind up towards the center area of the drum getting two more stroke. WIth the right hand it goes outwards getting three hits out of one stroke.


Its hard to explain, but the Dave weckl DVD does a pretty good job teaching it... but its really breif so I was bummed when I got it... but you will understand it. I think it was easier to understand than how Steve Smith was explaining it.

[RudimentalDrummer]

To rudimental drummer....

I studied it from the Dave Weckl video and the Steve Smith DVD and never really got it checked for form so im no authority on this, but...

Its the technique that... well you have play a stoke, but then after your main stroke, the rebound will allow you to have more strokes that are unaccented. Dave Weckl says this is not upstroke down stroke but i guess i didnt know what that was in the first place. Well anyway you move your arm in a way that you can milk the most amound of clean rebounds from your initial stroke. If you are playing traditional grip, which I do, youre hand will curl up towards the right side of the drum as you rewind for your next grip... I practice this with triplets so my arm is all the way down on the left when i get the first stroke, and I wind up towards the center area of the drum getting two more stroke. WIth the right hand it goes outwards getting three hits out of one stroke.


Its hard to explain, but the Dave weckl DVD does a pretty good job teaching it... but its really breif so I was bummed when I got it... but you will understand it. I think it was easier to understand than how Steve Smith was explaining it.

Thanks Bro ... kekekeke it's tough yeah ... and thanks for sharing

[finnhiggins]

To rudimental drummer....
Its the technique that... well you have play a stoke, but then after your main stroke, the rebound will allow you to have more strokes that are unaccented. Dave Weckl says this is not upstroke down stroke but i guess i didnt know what that was in the first place. Well anyway you move your arm in a way that you can milk the most amound of clean rebounds from your initial stroke. If you are playing traditional grip, which I do, youre hand will curl up towards the right side of the drum as you rewind for your next grip... I practice this with triplets so my arm is all the way down on the left when i get the first stroke, and I wind up towards the center area of the drum getting two more stroke. WIth the right hand it goes outwards getting three hits out of one stroke.


I think the main thing to realise is that when people talk about Moeller Technique they're often talking about two different things.

1) "Proper" moeller technique as described above - it's not really an accented pattern, more a way of using the "moeller motion" to give a relaxed series of notes at the same dynamic from one hand.
2) Moeller technique as applied to accents, where strokes are played as upstrokes, downstrokes etc but the up and down strokes are achieved using a combination of wrist and forearm movement.

They both use the same key motions - a snap of the wrist combined with a lift of the arm, like a whiplash movement. They just do different things with them. #1 is good for playing a series of notes at a single dynamic, fast, with one hand. #2 is probably more practically useful during everyday grooving in that you can use it to execute accented hi-hat lines and pull accents patterns out of stickings around the kit.

If you're after a video of the second approach, I posted a link to a page on my site with some video in another thread (called something like "Playing fast"). It might be useful in understanding the movement, and you can maybe use that to work out how you'd apply it to #1.

[hypecast]

The book is available here:

http://www.foreverdrumming.com/books/m.html

Scroll down until you find it. Cheap.

Before going any further, let me say I'm no expert, nor am I taking sides with anyone, I'm just reporting what I've seen/read, and my experience with this mystical technique :-).

FWIW, I became interested a while back, after a friend saw a Dave Weckl clinic around the time Weckl had 'converted' to it and was singing its praises. So... I went to a Weckl clinic, was blown away, blah, blah, blah, and faithfully started practicing the technique as he demonstrated it. I couldn't wait to learn it, thinking then I'd surely be the next Dave Weckl, which isn't even something I aspire to, but I figured at least I could use chops like that for my own evil purposes. I could never completely get the hang of it, so I bought the book. Funny thing, I discovered Weckl hadn't demonstrated it how Moeller himself describes it (and the blurb about the book at that site even mentions how many instructors get it wrong).

Anyway, still in my Moeller phase, I then heard that Jim Chapin was *really* the guy who could teach it (he actually studied with Moeller), so I got Chapin's video (which is really good). Hiyever, Chapin himself admits even he doesn't use the technique *exactly* as Moeller taught it, because it's derived from a technique Army drummers were using on marching snares way back in the 1800s, and that's what the technique is ideal for: rudimental drumming on old-school, slanted marching snares. For things like buzz rolls, single-stroke rolls and other things, there are better techniques, IMO (and Chapin's too, if you listen closely). If nothing else, though, it got me to where I could play paradiddles at like 900 mph.

Bottom line: I think the Moeller technique is a great *addition* to my tool kit, and the book and video really helped my playing. Once I got it through my head not to try to rely solely on it, it became useful, as I could pick and choose where it's most valuable to me. Hate to make the analogy, but it's like martial arts: no one style is necessarily superior to any other, they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Bruce Lee (how am I mentioning Bruce Lee on a drummer's forum?) was of the opinion that it was wise to study them all and take the best from each, leave the worst. It's also my opinion (and just that, an opinion) that drumming is the same way (well, most things in life, really, but now I surely digress).

One last thought: through links on this forum, I've recently discovered the Gladstone technique, and am quite fascinated by it. I'd like to find some way to study it and see how incorporating it would help my playing. I also now realize, after watching some video clips on the technique, that what Weckl demonstrated way back at that clinic was at least as close to the Gladstone technique as it was to Moeller's, really a hybrid of the two. What he was doing now makes more sense to me. It seems (and I'm probably wrong) that he settled on a technique that incorporates elements of both. Even if he didn't, I don't think it's a bad idea.

Sorry for the length of this post...

Let us know how you like the book.

[finnhiggins]

Hate to make the analogy, but it's like martial arts: no one style is necessarily superior to any other, they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Bruce Lee (how am I mentioning Bruce Lee on a drummer's forum?) was of the opinion that it was wise to study them all and take the best from each, leave the worst. It's also my opinion (and just that, an opinion) that drumming is the same way (well, most things in life, really, but now I surely digress).

I agree. The more you learn, the more you can figure out what's appropriate where. I currently have a problem in that I can play french grip (thumbs on top) in my right hand quite well due to using it for jazz ride cymbal playing, yet can't do it with the left. That's not particularly ideal, since I have found that there are times when it is very appropriate and I would like to be able to move both hands to the same grip to execute certain ideas.

Likewise heel down vs heel up bass drum playing - I can do both, and neither is downright better. They both have situations where they're clearly the better option. The hard bit is switching between them on the fly. Learning more techniques can only make you a stronger player.

That said, it's not a good idea to study too many at once IHMO. It's easy to reach into the "toolbox" and grab a technique you've already learned, but beginning heaps of similar but different techniques at the same time is quite confusing and for me tends to slow down my learning of any of them to a stage where I can switch to it quickly.

[loop]

to HYPECAST...

Thx, but i can´t 2 pay for the book, so i can get the book by others ways...e,g, EMULE, KAZAA...etc.

If somebody knows some emule link or place (URL), please let me know.
thx, again.


loop.-

[Henry II]

Jim Chapin was Sanford Moeller's greatest student back in the 30's. Chapin's video, "Speed, Power, Control, Endurance" is the best lesson on the Moeller method I've seen.

[Pratt]

Hi everybody! this is Pratt from Brasil. great forum you have here!

look, I was googling on the web and found this topic about moeller technique in your forum, so I would like to share with you (and to hear from you about it) one message I have posted in another drum forum, that seems to me, would be a nice contribuition to continue this subject wich I find of great importance for drummers. so, here it is:

I wasnt able to get in moeller´s method yet right in the source (like a book or an article from him or something), but according to the information I could collect untill now, moeller´s prestige on drumming scene through 1930 to about 1960 is due to the uncommon style of his drumlines, wich were based on very wide wavy motions, really unique among the style of the other drumlines of that time.

my experience as a teacher and observer of other teachers and musicians has pointed me that most people tend to mistake that kind of motion with fluidity of movements and technical facility, and this is one of the most important factors that lead those people to frustration when trying to play their best.

if you pay attention, all the great musicians that are claimed to use the "moeller technique", when playing virtuosistyc frases will drastically reduce the amplitude of their motions, concentrating only on controling the accents to produce even and soft taps, and so, detaching the melodic quality of their grooves, licks and solos (witch is the final purpose for general drumming)

for me, in order to achieve complete control of drumming technique it is necessary to watch out for excellent posture (body/arms and grip) and full domain of the down up tap full technique.

I really dont know if moeller himself gave birth to this concept. I just remember I saw it for the first time in Gene Krupa´s book (who was a student of moeller), then on "patterns" by gary chafee and a book from john wooton (the drummer´s rudimental refference book) in witch he quotes gary chafee method when talking about this technique.

I think that more important than round a circle through our movemets
is to achieve a nice quality of ciclic motion (ok, the best way to do a cicle is through a circle...), and the down up tecnique is a true way to go for it.

here in Brasil, from our most famous traveled drummers we hear a lot about "circular", but nothing about "cicles"...what do you think about that?

[JohnMunsey]

What exactly is the modified moeller? Any change of the moeller?

Is it more sublte of a motion?

Thanks!

[finnhiggins]

What exactly is the modified moeller? Any change of the moeller?

Is it more sublte of a motion?

Thanks!

This is my understanding - I could be totally wrong:

Proper Moeller technique (as demonstrated by Jim Chapin on his video) is similar to German grip, but with the sticks meeting at something like a ninety-degree angle instead of a 45-degree one. The moeller strokes are played by rotating the wrist outwards, and after a down stroke is played the rebound is allowed - the stick springs back to a position allowing another "full" stroke to the drum. In other words, the accents generated by this system are quite subtle compared to the overall volume of the playing. There might be accenting in, say, a triplet pattern played this way but it's certainly going to be less defined than is required for a lot of music.

There's another approach which pretty much just grafts the wrist movement from moeller onto the German grip, and modifies the down stroke so that the rebound is prevented - the stick stops around 1-2cm above the head allowing subsequent tap (rebound) strokes to be played very quietly. Accents still use the moeller "throwing" motion and whip the stick back. This allows for a bit more contrast between accented strokes and ghosted ones, which can be useful in a groove context.

Or I could just be wrong :)

[RXFDRUMS]

Let Jeff Queen show you

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/jeffqueen-video-lessons.html

[Bashkin]

'Thank u all 4 all the info
I'm still looking for info and this is what I found
http://www.drumskillz.com/cont_view.php?cont_id=58

[JohnMunsey]

Chapin and Dom are the guys to learn this one from.

Moeller technique = great efficiency strokes

[Funkydew]

I learnt the basic Moeller srtoke, or a bastardized version of it years ago, and thought I had it down. Now, taking lessons With Dom, I find I knew nothing at all. In my opinion it is not that hard to learn the stroke, but a good teacher is money well spent. I tried both, and, well, just get a teacher who KNOWS!

Also, the application of the moeller stroke to give one accent followed by a series of taps, all just with that one motion, is what Dom calls "pumping motion". To someone trying to learn this I can say that I would NEVER have learned it without a teacher. It took me so long to get it right, and I would never have had the discipine to keep correcting it had it not been for those monthly lessons. I am not trying to discourage people more talented than myself from just getting it in five minutes, but it is kinda hard. It feels great when you do it finally, though, because you really aren't using the fingers much. I never understood Chapin's "just let the stick bounce in your hand" but that is really what happens.

If you cannot get to a teacher who can show you this, I beleive many people would get it from Dom's book It's Your Move. This is a great echnique book, and it explains not only Moeller, but the prerequisite, the Free Stroke. Peace, and no, I don't get royalties, I am just born again :-)

[JohnMunsey]

It's Your Move is the most indepth hand technique book I've seen with pics, text and all. I looooooove it!

[Funkydew]

John, couldn't agree more. In my opinion, nobody should be allowed to play Stick Control or Master Studies without having learned these techniques first. The time I wasted is CRIMINAL........

[JohnMunsey]

I hear you man. I think many of us went through some of these books without using the correct hand techniques (e.g., Free Stroke, rebound, moeller).

Important thing is -- we corrected them ultimately.

You do Dom's quintuplet flam interventions? They are sick, man.

[Funkydew]

I hear you man. I think many of us went through some of these books without using the correct hand techniques (e.g., Free Stroke, rebound, moeller).

Important thing is -- we corrected them ultimately.

You do Dom's quintuplet flam interventions? They are sick, man.
Funny you should ask that question. No, I am only at the 16ths, but I have read ahead. What about the Weaker Side? I get so humiliated every time I do it, especially if I haven't worked on it for a while. It's like my right hand is in atrophy.

I would love to talk about It's your Move more. There are SO many interesting things in there.

[-wahYudi-]

i know this subject might have been revised 1000 times on these forums but could we get a video of this being done?

[aarbo]

Maybe this one?

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/JimChapin.html

[Scatman]

The Jim Chapin video is the best for understanding the Moeller way of playing

[Tim Waterson]

Hello 2 you all Drummers of the world.
Can any body explain some more about this method of movement please ?
and /or post some working methods and exercise rutines
thanks a lot
R.
Bashkin
Here is a short clip using Moeller to move around the drums.
Hope this helps
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=C9OGWIAQ
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[bean6022000]

I found the info. and videos, at the link below, to be very helpful for Moeller.

What I need help with is finger technique. Unfortunately, I'm having to "unlearn" some very bad habits that cause me to tense up. Also, my left hand is WAY less controlled than my right. Any suggestions?

http://www.digbydoodle.com/Moeller/vintage.htm

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I found the info. and videos, at the link below, to be very helpful for Moeller.

What I need help with is finger technique. Unfortunately, I'm having to "unlearn" some very bad habits that cause me to tense up. Also, my left hand is WAY less controlled than my right. Any suggestions?

http://www.digbydoodle.com/Moeller/vintage.htm
First of all, are you talking about the single Moeller whip, or the continuous "pumping" motion? You must learn the single stroke first. But even before that, I would recmmend you learn the free stroke. It will teach you great control of both hands, and relaxation in the fingers. The finger motion in the Moeller is really heard to explain. I got it after spending around 20 hours at least (no kidding) over a perdiod of several months. It is something you will just "get" after trying a long time. It is also thrilling to discover, so have fun with it!

But try learning the fre stroke first. Look at Dom Famularos videos and get his book. Good luck, DPS

[bean6022000]

Thank You for the Advice DrPowerstroke. You asked whether I was talking about the single whipping stroke or the the pumpimg stroke. Really, both. I have the Chapin video and while he is introducing "how to get into the Moeller thing," he is doing triplets with one hand using the pumping motion and then when he introduces the other hand he is clearly using fingers. Chapin also clearly uses fingers as he picks up speed; particularly when he is demonstrating the paradiddle exercises later in the video. Anyway, I'll check out Dom's clips further . What will be confusing to me by doing this, however, is that Dom is using a wrist throw down technique that is not like the Moeller stroke. I guess ya gotta learn multiple techniques, I just don't want to have to "unlearn" even more stuff. Thanks again.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

No problem, Bean, here to help. Yes, you have to learn two techniques, the free stroke, (the thrown stroke) and the Moeller. Simplistically put, the free stroke holds the stick at the front of the hand for control, while the other, the Moeller, leans back on the stick for speed and power. As you get proficient, however, you will reaqlize that they overlap, but let your hands tell you when. Practice the techniques seperately, they will blend by themselves in your playing. When I saw Dom's clips I got so excited I started taking lessons with him, and this stuff is not really hard to learn, it just takes time, and more so if you have bad habits, which I do :-) Good luck. DPS

[punky_funk]

Can anyone give me a link or some stickings for the moeller technique?
I know this topic has come up a lot but I still don't no much about it.
Has anyone got any tips on playing jazz? cheerz

[bean6022000]

I'm trying to more fully learn Moeller. I have the Chapin Video and have looked at a bunch of Internet clips. I stumbled across the Internet site on Moeller attached below. In my opinion this site gives the most comrehensive history and explanation of the Moeller technique....period (yes even better than the Chapin video). The author (TW Hanson) did a great job. I'm curious what you guys think; particularly the right hand finger bounce technique. I've never seen this technique before. So far, my limited experimintation with the technique indicates some promise. I want to use only one technique (i.e. Moeller vice Freehand)and Moeller seems to be the ticket. I want to focus on one technique 'cause I already have enough bad habits to "unlearn." Thanks for your input.

http://www.digbydoodle.com/Moeller/vintage.htm

[NouveauCliche]

Wow man, thanks for that awesome link!

It's neat to see some history and real respect for the history of drums and drumming. Especially parade type drumming, since previous to the jazz and swing era that was pretty much the only kind of drumming we had in America.

As for the grip itself...it looks like a fantastic way to exert some power without having to exert so much force like you'd have to in say a french type of grip. My only concern is using it with modern snare/tom angles...but those could easily be change to more accomidate the grip itself. Definetly something worth trying out!

[bean6022000]

Check put the thread I just posted entitled "Moeller History and Videos Website." Hope this helps.

[NUTHA JASON]

i found this picture of a gig from about a year ago. look how loose i'm holding my drumstick. its being held by my fingers and controlled by my thumb and index ...and that hardly at all. this is how i hold my hihat stick for most of the night and so i am able to play with speed and power without fatigue. as i understand it, this is integral to the moeller approach.
j
ps this shot was taken with a flash and suprised me mid stroke (hence the rabbit in the headlights stare) but ut did show me usefully how loose i was holding the stick.
http://www.swarm.tv/images/d.jpg

[Tim Waterson]

I'm trying to more fully learn Moeller. I have the Chapin Video and have looked at a bunch of Internet clips. I stumbled across the Internet site on Moeller attached below. In my opinion this site gives the most comrehensive history and explanation of the Moeller technique....period (yes even better than the Chapin video). The author (TW Hanson) did a great job. I'm curious what you guys think; particularly the right hand finger bounce technique. I've never seen this technique before. So far, my limited experimintation with the technique indicates some promise. I want to use only one technique (i.e. Moeller vice Freehand)and Moeller seems to be the ticket. I want to focus on one technique 'cause I already have enough bad habits to "unlearn." Thanks for your input.

http://www.digbydoodle.com/Moeller/vintage.htm

Great Link I think this should help a lot of confusion on Moeller.
I have heard great things about Tommy.
Seeing as there is NO drumset videos from Tommy Id let you kinow I have another clip on using Moeller accents around the drums in my tip or trick of the month for November.
http://forum.timwaterson.com/viewtopic.php?t=32
Hope this helps and God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[JT1]

OMG Tim Waterson was here. Wow he is a legend like i wish i could do the heel-toe technique al together never mind as good as he can!

[incubotic]

thanks for that link tim..that helped a lot for moving around the kit. awesome vid.

[Tim Waterson]

thanks for that link tim..that helped a lot for moving around the kit. awesome vid.
Glad you liked the clip NOW I can finally post videos there are more comming LOL
TOMMY is a great drummer and I remember BOO McAfee saying GREAT things about him as well.Tommy LOVES to teach just Like Jim.
God Bless
Tim
http://forum.timwaterson.com/viewforum.php?f=6&sid=066ec146e6f63d7deab72a7744c987a5

[jeanke]

i never knew i used the moeller techn.
i just learnded it from my drumteacher.
it's pretty easy if you know how

[bean6022000]

Great Link I think this should help a lot of confusion on Moeller.
I have heard great things about Tommy.
Seeing as there is NO drumset videos from Tommy Id let you kinow I have another clip on using Moeller accents around the drums in my tip or trick of the month for November.
http://forum.timwaterson.com/viewtopic.php?t=32
Hope this helps and God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

Great Video Tim,,,Thanks! Did you get a chance to see that RH index finger bounce video hotlinked in the "Ancients" article? Have you ever used it? What do you think?

Also, in trying to use Moeller matched grip (Chapin style) on the drumset, I'm having a bit of trouble with the hi-hat getting in the way. Whereas I'm used to using the German grip at about a 45 degree angle, the Moeller is closer to 90 degrees. Consequently, the butt of my stick tends to hit the high-hat when I move from the snare to the left upper rack tom. I know this sounds like it should be an easy fix (just move the friggin' high-hat further out), but it is not quite that simple. My high-hat is already pretty far out, and when I move it out further, it is too far out for comfortable right-hand sticking. The open hand (leading left hand) style is not an option at this point as my left hand is not that developed (yet). So.....did you have this problem when you first started the Moeller matched grip/technique, and what did you do about it?

Man your feet are on fire! What technique do you use on the pedals? Any particular exercises you used to develop them? Do you have a video of your technique?

Thanks for your Moeller drumst video and your advice.

[k3ng]

So I've been working on the Moeller alot, especially in traditional grip, and got sort of stumped at my speed. Sure it felt muce more relaxed and looser but didn't quite get speed into it.

But then I took a look at the Jojo Mayer video on the site about the Moeller (which I think is the best Moeller clip there is on this site), and saw him turn the Moeller over as he pumped the motion. I tried this and I think it's working for me, but I'm not too sure about it.

So I was thinking, since I don't really have a drum teacher at the moment, is there a specific way to know if you're doing the Moeller right?

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

So I've been working on the Moeller alot, especially in traditional grip, and got sort of stumped at my speed. Sure it felt muce more relaxed and looser but didn't quite get speed into it.

But then I took a look at the Jojo Mayer video on the site about the Moeller (which I think is the best Moeller clip there is on this site), and saw him turn the Moeller over as he pumped the motion. I tried this and I think it's working for me, but I'm not too sure about it.

So I was thinking, since I don't really have a drum teacher at the moment, is there a specific way to know if you're doing the Moeller right?
Yes, there is:
1) If you can pump 8th note triplets with one hand at tempo 120 (so, three beats per metronome beat) and feel like you could go on all day, then you are there. And then here are some further things to check if you want it to be really beneficial to you in the long run:
2) Keep your elbows in, make sure they don't fly out at the accent.
3) Truly hit only once, and let the stick bounce twice (or three times for 16ths). You will of course control the bounce, but the enery should come from the first hit.
4) For the right hand: is the wrist straight? It is worth the effort to really work on keeping it straight, as it makes the energy flow easier, and a straight wrist is one thing that can't hurt you, whereas a bent wrist surely will in the long run.
5) Also for the RH: try staying in German position first. It will stretch your outer forearm and give you better range of motion.
6) For the left hand, since I am a matched grip player I cannot give too much advice, but I would check my technique against Chapin's on Dom's videos and also JoJo Mayer's vids.
7) Keep thinking "play DOWN". It is easy, since the Moeller is a whipping motion, to subconsciously think forward, but keep playing down, it will make the sound much better.
Hope this helps. DPS

[Drum4fun]

I have one more question to add to this: if you are recomending using the accent then controlling the bouces (i assume for ghost notes) how does one get enough bounce to ghost at very high speeds without the accent??

this has been my problem of late when doing a Rll Rll or Lrr Lrr.

I can get it okay at lower tempos, but at higher tempos I am unable to produce ghost notes without an accent.

any advice would be appreciated...............also, sorry to hijack this thread.

[Henry II]

So I've been working on the Moeller alot, especially in traditional grip, and got sort of stumped at my speed. Sure it felt muce more relaxed and looser but didn't quite get speed into it.

But then I took a look at the Jojo Mayer video on the site about the Moeller (which I think is the best Moeller clip there is on this site), and saw him turn the Moeller over as he pumped the motion. I tried this and I think it's working for me, but I'm not too sure about it.

So I was thinking, since I don't really have a drum teacher at the moment, is there a specific way to know if you're doing the Moeller right?

Yes! Get Jim Chapin's video "Speed Power Control Endurance." It's all about the Moeller method. Jim was a student of Sanford Moeller. BTW, the Moeller method is absolutely essential for any serious drummer. But, it's not easy to master. Expect to practice several hours a day for at least 6 months before you can really employ it in your playing.

My advice: You can make it easier on yourself if you learn the Gladstone method first. It's much easier to learn than the Moeller method (you'll be able to execute it fairly well in a few weeks) and is really necessary to execute the Moeller method properly. Go to www.tigerbill.com (http://www.tigerbill.com). Look for a link called "Free Online Drum Lessons." From there, look for the 3 part lesson called "Building Monster Chops." They're all about the Gladstone method.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Yes! Get Jim Chapin's video "Speed Power Control Endurance." It's all about the Moeller method. Jim was a student of Sanford Moeller. BTW, the Moeller method is absolutely essential for any serious drummer. But, it's not easy to master. Expect to practice several hours a day for at least 6 months before you can really employ it in your playing.

My advice: You can make it easier on yourself if you learn the Gladstone method first. It's much easier to learn than the Moeller method (you'll be able to execute it fairly well in a few weeks) and is really necessary to execute the Moeller method properly. Go to www.tigerbill.com (http://www.tigerbill.com). Look for a link called "Free Online Drum Lessons." From there, look for the 3 part lesson called "Building Monster Chops." They're all about the Gladstone method.
I second that: learn the free stroke first. Also, get Dom Famularo's book, it explains it really well. I have watched the Jojo vid, and I don't think he really explains anything at all. Apart from that, everything is really hard to see because of the other pads obstructing the view. He is a character to watch, but it is not the most informative material, in my opinion. On this site, I recommend Dom's video's which really show the motion well. Two of them also feature Jim Chapin. I don't have Chepin's videos but I am sure they are worth the money. Cheers, DPS

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I have one more question to add to this: if you are recomending using the accent then controlling the bouces (i assume for ghost notes) how does one get enough bounce to ghost at very high speeds without the accent??

this has been my problem of late when doing a Rll Rll or Lrr Lrr.

I can get it okay at lower tempos, but at higher tempos I am unable to produce ghost notes without an accent.

any advice would be appreciated...............also, sorry to hijack this thread.
Well, you can do it, but you will work harder. It is a bit strange, that an accent and two taps should be easier than three taps, but that's the way it is. In the end it comes down to the choices you make in any playing situation. DPS

[centralzeke]

Yeah, Moeller takes a lot of practice to get down.

I have it in my right hand but my left hand is nowhere near it. I also noticed I have Free Stroke perfected in my right, not in my left. That isn't a coincidence. Being really good at free strokes will help a lot!!

[bean6022000]

Dr.

I assume when you say the German grip you are referring to the nearly 90 degree "Moeller Grip" in the Jim Chapin video and not the restricted 45 degree grip that he also talks about in his video? By the way, thanks for the earlier tip you gave me. You were right about the Freehand and Moeller coming together and becoming seamless. I'm still working on the Moeller little finger grip. I really like it, as it so free and powerful and I have a REALLY bad habit of gripping the sticks too tightly with my thumb and index finger when playing fast and/or hard. The little finger hold has eliminated that! Of course some control is lost, but I'm getting there!

[incubotic]

yes the grip is critical for moeller. Gripping the stick with ur thumb and index limits the free bounce of the stick. if u grip loosely with the thumb and middle finger the stick will bounce freely in that little crack of open space. I noticed moeller was much easier with this grip. but yea getting it goin at high speeds is still difficult for me, so i'm just being patient and focusing on the fluidity of the movements til they are competely habitual, and using more rebound for speed. i'm sure it will pay off and my speed will come.

EDIT: Actually i guess i the grip is in between the index and middle finger basically.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Dr.

I assume when you say the German grip you are referring to the nearly 90 degree "Moeller Grip" in the Jim Chapin video and not the restricted 45 degree grip that he also talks about in his video? By the way, thanks for the earlier tip you gave me. You were right about the Freehand and Moeller coming together and becoming seamless. I'm still working on the Moeller little finger grip. I really like it, as it so free and powerful and I have a REALLY bad habit of gripping the sticks too tightly with my thumb and index finger when playing fast and/or hard. The little finger hold has eliminated that! Of course some control is lost, but I'm getting there!
You are very welcome! Yes, my German is forearms straight, wrists flush, palms down and sticks at a little less than 90 degrees. The starting position is identical for the low stroke and Moeller, but the difference is that in the low stroke, thumb and index are in control. Make sure you don't focus on pinky and ring finger exclusively. As I have stated elsewhere, they sometimes grip the stick, but I think the essential mindset for learning the Moeller should be changing the grip around a little and really feeling the stick "massaging" the hand. When you get this almost narcotic feeling, you will know instincively how to adjust it, because it will feel physically good! These little differences that nevertheless make a huge difference, are really interesting...DPS

[k3ng]

Thanks alot DPS! Exactly what I needed to know about getting the Moeller. And I also believe in working on the Free Stroke first, since I already got and am currently using Dom's book. I think I pretty much got the Free Stroke/Gladstone down, and now its moeller pumping time.

[TWH]

RE: Moeller

First, may I say, thank you for the comments concerning the ‘ancients’
online snare drum article I put together (mentioned above).

I have received many direct e-mails about it as well.

Please feel free to check out a recent e-mail I received
(and my response). It covers a number of the usual FAQs.

I think many drummers might find it an interesting read
================================================== =====
MY RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS SENT TO ME BY "Howie"

Hello

Thank you for your e-mail. This is a lengthy reply, but you asked a number of great questions.
Just to let you know, I have two articles online...

__One is for the 'traditional grip' drummers (called 'vintage')
http://www.DigbyDoodle.com/Moeller/Vintage.htm
__The other is more or less geared to the drum kit (called Jazz-Rock)
http://www.DigbyDoodle.com/Moeller/MoellerJazz-Rock.htm

Each has different videos...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOU SAID...
<Excellent site!
<A couple of questions.
<What do you think of the Jim Chapin Moeller video and the Dom Famularo Vic Firth web site clips and the <explanations in his book "it's your move?

ANS -->
I was in my early twenties when I saw a Joe Morello clinic (in the mid 1960s). I became a Moeller enthusiast from then on This was before videos and CDs came out, etc.
But in the end, I really learned Moeller from Moeller (his self-instructor book). I went back and studied the book that I was given in ninth grade.
Please visit the following page, because I give credit in my articles to those who have published before me. Notice that I give credit to Vic Virth, here, as well.

http://www.DigbyDoodle.com/Moeller/Chapin_.htm

In short...I have no up or down answer to your first question...except to say that well respected drummers (led by Chapin), over the years, have many times advertised the benefits of Moeller's concepts (books, tapes, CDs, clinics, etc.) That, for sure, has been a really good thing.

Regarding the other parts of your question, I feel it's not appropropriate to critique anyone else who has found the time to extol the benefits of studying the snare drum (at least a little) with the 'Moeller' point of view.
There are many Moeller detractors in the drumming world, and the talk and rehashing about Moeller's ideas is good.

It's too bad that different terms have been made up that circumvent terms and descriptions Moeller used in his book. This has really confused people, it seems to me.
But, it keeps his ideas alive and ready for those who eventually tune into the 'Moeller world'... I would say that the drive to understand Moeller is almost magical among young drummers!

Here's where I'm coming from...
...Moeller for beginners. I merely went through the book and put together a review or explanation as to what's in the book. Period.
If anyone doesn't care for my grips...compare them with the pictures in the book. If one doesn't take into account when and why the book was compiled and written...there's a good chance that they won't get what the book is saying and what is being demonstrated. Perhaps I can help in that regard.

Think of Moeller as experiencing a really great novel. Many will read it, but how many will 'understand' and 'see' all the levels and such?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

YOU ASKED....
<Also, my drum teacher told me that he was going to teach me "modified moeller" that he learned from Joe <Morello. How does it differ?

ANS-->
With all due respect ... when someone tells me "I have a modified such and such" ... why not just go to the 'real thing' ... GO BACK TO AN ORIGINAL SOURCE and check it?. You must read all of Moeller's words and study all the pictures, however. Keep in mind that it was written during the jazz age, as well.
Then, you can better consider and learn what a 'modified' Moeller technique looks like...anyone can say 'this is Moeller'...even though it isn't!

In his book, Moeller writes...a person may " go to some drummer more or less known and throw himself at his mercy, give him money and follow his teachings minutely and still be found fault with."
He continues..."Sooner or later [he/she] will become aware that no one drummer knows it all or has invented any new system that all bow to."

My article is only suggesting, to those who are interested, that their goal should be to imitate the book first, and then modify (make adjustments) afterward. Just to sum up...if it is necessary, and there is no one to show you...THE BOOK CAN BE AS GOOD AS A TEACHER...(direct from Moeller to you)...One must take into account when it was written, that's all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOU ASKED....
<Also, how can Moeller be used for fast singles/finger control?
<Thanks for your time,
<Howie

ANS-->
I don't recall Moeller discussing finger control as did Gladstone, Wilcoxen and others, etc.
I have a 'Moeller-like' answer / innovation, however...

If I am doing fast singles on a marching drum (or a kit snare drum situated at an angle - traditional style), I have learned to render the finger bounce from above (without changing the grip) (my personal approach).
In other words...I grip the right stick with the 'Moeller grip' (drum at an angle) and, using the index finger only, 'dribble' the stick from above (as if a ball).

This is how I do fast 'finger' single strokes when using the grips pictured in Moeller's book. Because I am copying the pictures in his book...I have to use both index fingers.

This technique seems to be original on my part...finger bouncing on a drum, while maintaining the little finger grip (Moeller grip). You have to have a strong little finger, though. Lot's of practice time.

But to finally clarify, ...
If I am rendering fast singles on a suspended cymbal utilizing the finger bounce, I would not be using the 'Moeller grip', as the Moeller method (in the strictest sense) is not involved here.
I would personally use the popular matched grip (thumb fulcrum) and make use of my middle fingers to push up from below. It's perfectly compatible to incorporate Moeller concepts into your technique AND use, for instance, the 'Gladston approach' for finger control as well.
================
And lastly, If I may say... most of the inquiries I get have to do with worrying about technique.
Many years ago I was involved with some of Jeff Hamilton's master classes (I like his brush work). He reminded me that having a great set of hands isn't all there is! Why spend so much time on technique if no one is going to hear your playing? What good is how well you understand Moeller, then?

But I agree with what Jeff was getting at...play with what ya got...keep trying to improve on what works for you. If Moeller helps your playing...sweet. If he doesn't, what's the difference? Something else may work better for you.

I personally believe that Moeller's methods are the best place to start. Nobody will be able to get everyone to agree with that, however! Many will always feel that Moeller is totally backwards and old fashioned. Their loss!

Technique is merely the vocabulary you have to work with. Miles Davis became famous by playing 'slower' (fewer notes) than the boppers (Dizzy and Charlie, et al of the late 1940s and 50s). He's considered just as important to jazz as Dizzy, right?

My advice...express yourself musically, not just technically!

All the best...Tommy
TWH

[Johnny_Stacks]

Hey there Tom.. If you go to http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/Jojomayermoeller.html Jojo Mayer explains the whole entire moeller technique very good.. hope that helps

- John

[centralzeke]

Buy the video "Speed Control Power Endurance". It is awesome. Jim Chapin explains all about Moeller technique and also grips.

[Panos_from_greece!]

it is not as easy as it seems in videos...My teacher sais that he'll teach me moeller technique but it needs a lot of time and practice because it seems crappy at first and very odd...All i wanna say is that someone must teach you the moeller technique , i dont think that you can learn it all by yourself.

[centralzeke]

I learned it by myself!

[bean6022000]

Check out the Moeller Technique thread here in the forum. Here is the last post, from that thread, from the guy that has the best Moeller articles and videos on the web (in my opinion).

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showpost.php?p=48700&postcount=48

[Skinny D]

Hi all-- I've been studying the Moeller technique and one thing that I don't understand (actually two things): on the up-stroke, are your fingers involved in creating the tap? or are you supposed to let the stick drop? If the stick simply drops, it will always be much softer in volume to the down-stroke. From some videos I've seen, the Moeller technique can be used to make 16th notes of equal volume. Am I missing something?

Thanks!

[Bipitta]

Well, take what you want from it but, this is how I do it:

The wrist starts it all.

You throw the stick down using your wrist, and then from that point it's like dribbling the stick with your fingers.

You throw down with your wrist, and let the stick rebound, and then the dribbling begins.

Say, if you were doing sixteenth notes:

Wrist, rebound, fingers, rebound, fingers, rebound, fingers, rebound -- and then repeat.

Try practicing it in triplet form. From anyone I've ever asked about it, that's the easiest/best way to learn.

So, it would be:

Wrist, rebound, fingers, rebound, fingers, rebound. Repeat.

And don't be afraid to go really, really slow. That helps you see and feel how the stick does a lot of the work for you.

It's pretty much like dribbling a basketball. You wouldn't hold onto the ball for both the up and down portion of it. You just throw it down and it comes back to you.

All you have to think about is "down".

I hope that helps.

[Class A Drummer]

You snap the wrist and when it comes up use ur fingers.

[Skinny D]

Thanks for the input! That's the way I've been practicing (with the fingers), but I was worried I wasn't doing it right. Although with the dribbling, are you able to get all the 16th notes of equal volume? or is the downstroke always inherently louder in the technique?

[centralzeke]

When people are talking about the Moeller technique, they're usually talking about the method of accenting, so yeah the accents are part of it.

If you just want to play fast singles without accents, the Moeller motion isn't necesarry.

[pcmckay]

My question about the Moeller Technique is dealing with the finger technique. I played competition Highland Snare for about 8 years. The technique that they use in Scotland and the one that I was taught was using your thumb on the rebound of the stick on your left hand in the traditional grip. All the clips that I have seen from Jim Chapin and so on they use either their index finger or their middle finger to move the stick. I am more comfortable using my thumb, because that is what I am used to. Is this acceptable?

[centralzeke]

Yeah, you can get some finger control with just your thumb, Tony Williams used just his thumb sometimes.

So it could be used for the controlled finger rebounds in Moeller technique.

[moparpunks]

are the first 2 strokes of a moeller triplet a push pull?

[nycdrummer]

Right now THE guy for moeller, in my opinion, is jo jo mayer. You can see him use it live on the modern drummer '05 dvd, and there are video clips on this website of him demonstarting the push/pull and pumping motion. I study with a guy at the collective here in new york who was a student of jojo's and jim chapin; so I'm slowly learning the principles of the technique and I'll share with you what I learn once i know it well enough myself to tell others. It does make playing easier,for instance I'm able to play triplets with one hand almost as fast as someone using both (almost). This is all due to letting the stick rebound naturally and controlling the bounce by using your arm as a pendulum. But yeah, check out jo jo mayer for a much more modern approach and application.

Sean

[One Bad Pig]

What's the difference between Moeller and Gladstone?

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

What's the difference between Moeller and Gladstone?
Whatever you do, don't do a search, because this has never been brought up before, especially not 1000 times. DPS

[Class A Drummer]

I dont know what a gladstone or a moeller is. ive heard of moeller and seen it done but i still dont know what it is.

[Martal]

I have seen countless of thread and videos on Moeller with the Tradi. Grip.However,i have seen none about the Moeller with Matched Grip.If anyone could point out a thread/video with info on Moeller with the Matched Grip it would be great.Thx.

[MuDvAyNe]

I'm not 100% sure but i think the moeller technique is the push and pull thing

[Raymond Bloom]

I'm not 100% sure but i think the moeller technique is the push and pull thing
No. push-pull tehcnique has nothing to do with Moeller tehcnique, it involves Gladstone technique tho.

Moeller technique with left hand in trad grip and right hand in matched:
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo/dom6HQ.html

[jonescrusher]

No. push-pull tehcnique has nothing to do with Moeller tehcnique, it involves Gladstone technique tho.

[/URL]

Not sure you're quite correct there - push-pull can certainly describe aspects of the Moeller system, e.g on jazz ride patterns, double strokes etc.

[Raymond Bloom]

Not sure you're quite correct there - push-pull can certainly describe aspects of the Moeller system, e.g on jazz ride patterns, double strokes etc.

Basically when you watch someone showing Moeller technique they are using it combined with Gladstone technique, Moeller technique is a whipping motion with multiple strokes mainly meant for dead surfaces with less or no rebound! Gladstone technique is all about rebound and not using an upstroke

Here is a nice explanation I read somewhere:
''Moeller basically observed US Civil War drummers cope with needing to play for long periods, in difficult conditions (like, ferinstance, being shot at) with crappy heads that had no rebound. They developed this "whipping" motion that allowed them to get multiple strokes out of a single arm movement. Moeller described this - and taught it to Jim Chapin in the 30s.

Meanwhile, Billy Gladstone - a pit drummer - was developing the rebound technique. Using decent, tensioned heads he was allowing the rebound to do the work of getting the stick back up off the head - the so-called "free stroke." Joe Morello and "Tiger" Bill Meligari are probably the most famous two exponents of Gladstone these days.

Eventually, these two techniques have become merged. The Moeller motion gives you the optimised "three strokes for a single throw" motion, and the Gladstone rebound gives you the impetus for the free stroke.''

[Henry II]

I've written some pretty complete descriptions of Moeller and Gladstone on this forum, with references to source material at least 3 or 4 times. Try a search.

And BTW, the Moeller method does not involve the push/pull technique, which is the same as the open/close aka drop/pickup technique.

These methods are valid, but they are not the same as Moeller or Gladstone.

I did a search and found one I wrote about 6 months ago:

Thumbs up using fingers to flip the sticks down and the rebound off the drum for the upstroke is called the French tympani method. Palms down using the wrist for upstrokes and downstrokes is known as the German tympani method. Half way in between has been given the informal moniker of the American method.

You can use any or all of them for a given application. I personally think that the American method is the most versatile. I suppose there are times when using different methods at the same time would be useful, but, you should be able to use the same method with both hands, especially when playing on snare, where you want a uniform sound between hands.

Having said all that, there's another, superior way to think about your grips and hand technique. There are two methods that every serious drummer must master:
1) the Gladstone "rebound" method, and
2) the Moeller "whip" method.

The best lesson I've seen on the Gladstone method can be found here: www.tigerbill.com (http://www.tigerbill.com/). Look for the link to free internet lessons. From there, look for the 3 part lesson called "Building Monster Chops." Print them up, read them carefully, and review them often. A quick explanation would be to analogize a Gladstone stroke like bouncing a basketball [You push the ball down and it bounces back up]. You throw the stick down and, keeping your fingers, hands and wrist so completely tension free, it rebounds uninhibited to the starting stick height. The faster you want to go, the lower you allow the stick to bounce back up. You don't lift the stick with your wrist. After you get up to speed with that concept, you can start to use your fingers to flip the sticks down and letting them bounce back up. This method is fairly easy compared to the Moeller method, and you should get comfortable with Gladstone first.

The best lesson I've seen on the Moeller method is Jim Chapin's video: "Speed, Power, Control, Endurance." A short explanation of this method is that it starts by raising the elbow out to the side and then snapping it down to your side, whipping the stick into the drum. That's the downstroke which is also an accented stroke. Then, the stick hits the drum 1 or more times, while the elbow/arm is going back up for the next whipping action. So, you get multiple stick strokes from a single arm stroke. This method will take a minimum of 6 months of dedicated, daily practice before you can get competent with it. Nevertheless, if you are serious about drumming, you must master it. But, get competent with the Gladstone method first.

[jonescrusher]

Basically when you watch someone showing Moeller technique they are using it combined with Gladstone technique, Moeller technique is a whipping motion with multiple strokes mainly meant for dead surfaces with less or no rebound! Gladstone technique is all about rebound and not using an upstroke

Here is a nice explanation I read somewhere:
''Moeller basically observed US Civil War drummers cope with needing to play for long periods, in difficult conditions (like, ferinstance, being shot at) with crappy heads that had no rebound. They developed this "whipping" motion that allowed them to get multiple strokes out of a single arm movement. Moeller described this - and taught it to Jim Chapin in the 30s.

Meanwhile, Billy Gladstone - a pit drummer - was developing the rebound technique. Using decent, tensioned heads he was allowing the rebound to do the work of getting the stick back up off the head - the so-called "free stroke." Joe Morello and "Tiger" Bill Meligari are probably the most famous two exponents of Gladstone these days.

Eventually, these two techniques have become merged. The Moeller motion gives you the optimised "three strokes for a single throw" motion, and the Gladstone rebound gives you the impetus for the free stroke.''

Well, i suppose we all make different interpretations on what we are taught (@Henry II- we haven't seen eye to eye in the past, so we're unlikely to here :)). Having been taught Moeller system for the last 6 months i see it as a four stroke system - up, down, tap and full strokes, which often necessarily involve the 'whipping' motion. Of course, stick rebound forms an integral part of the system, in full strokes which are akin to free strokes under the gladstone method.
I personally use push pull to describe the up, full and down stroke combination used to play a conventional jazz ride pattern. Colaiuta kills this, and is seen in full swing on the Chick Corea acoustic band DVD live from Tokyo. I believe he's depping for Weckl on that one.

[Raymond Bloom]

Well, i suppose we all make different interpretations on what we are taught
very true and that is basically the main reason for many missunderstandings :-)


I personally use push pull to describe the up, full and down stroke combination used to play a conventional jazz ride pattern.
I can't agree ont this one, although the concept is similar, push-pull consists of two storkes combined in one motion, push - wrists (downstroke) and pull - fingers (upstroke) but yeah it's kinda like modified push-pull

Colaiuta kills this, and is seen in full swing on the Chick Corea acoustic band DVD live from Tokyo. I believe he's depping for Weckl on that one.
Can you give me full title of that dvd? Sonds like something I need in my collection!

[Jeff Almeyda]

Having been taught Moeller system for the last 6 months i see it as a four stroke system - up, down, tap and full strokes, which often necessarily involve the 'whipping' motion.


The term full stroke normally means a stroke done from a full stroke position.(As opposed to half or low-stroke position). The technique involved could be either formal (Gladstone) or informal (Moeller). This is a loud stroke.

The Gladstone full stroke is always started from the top, stick perpendicular to the floor. the stick is thrown down and allowed to rebound (using the free stroke concept) back to the top.

The Moeller full stroke is always started from the low position and the stick is "whipped"
back up to the required stroke height (in this case full but it could be low, half or full) and back down to the drum.

I tend to see Moeller as a three stroke system down tap up for triplets and down tap tap up for 16ths. Depending upon your dynamic level, you would play with a low, half or full stroke.

[jonescrusher]

@ Raymond- yeh, it's a matter of opinion, i certainly agree that it's more suitable to describe, say, the double stroke action as push-pull....

I'm downloading the torrent of the Chick Corea New Akoustic band (live at the Blue Note, Tokyo) now, havent found it for sale. you can get a clip of it at houseofdrumming.com. To get the torrent, you'd best try dimeadozen.org. Just watch that right arm fly! Peace

@Knevildrummer - again, it's a matter of personal preference how you interpret, but i would have to disagree in your description of the Moeller full stroke. A moeller full stroke is always started from the high position and requires a full rebound back to the same high position. Thus, it is used for accented notes, where another accented note immediately follows. The 'up' stoke starts from a low postion and ends in a high position. This is an unaccented stoke. The 'down' stroke starts from a high position and ends in a low position. This is an accented stroke.

[Jeff Almeyda]

@Knevildrummer - again, it's a matter of personal preference how you interpret, but i would have to disagree in your description of the Moeller full stroke. A moeller full stroke is always started from the high position and requires a full rebound back to the same high position. Thus, it is used for accented notes, where another accented note immediately follows. The 'up' stoke starts from a low postion and ends in a high position. This is an unaccented stoke. The 'down' stroke starts from a high position and ends in a low position. This is an accented stroke.


I studied the free stroke/Gladstone approach with Morello and was introduced to Moeller via Dom Famularo. After 6 months with him, he recommended that I go to Jim Chapin. Chapin himself reviewed my Moeller technique last Saturday and proclaimed it "very good".

Jonescrusher, what you descibed in the paragraph above is a desciption of the Gladstone or "free stroke" method NOT the Moeller method. You described the full stroke as well as a downstroke and an upstroke.If you removed the word "moeller" from the above paragraph and replaced it with "Gladstone" or "formal" you would be correct.

I assure you that my information is correct. I am not interested in being "right" I only want to relay what I have studied. For verification on the starting and ending position of the Moeller (informal) and Gladstone (formal) strokes please refer to Dom's book It's Your Move Pages 13-27. You will see that the starting point for any Moeller stroke is the low position. How else could you generate a whip if you didn't start low and whip the stick up and then down?

[centralzeke]

Ah I just replied to jonescrushers post but it got deleted somehow!! But I'm with Knevildrummer. There's no such thing as a Moeller full stroke, what you're talking about are just plain full strokes, or if we want to put someone's name before everything, we can call them Gladstone full strokes!

There's already a wealth of information on the technique in this thread and the analogy of the arm being a series of levers is right on. You know when you've got the technique down, it feels great and is virtually effortless.

[Class A Drummer]

Wow i just tryed it out for my first time, and i kind of got it. It really is ez and probably doesnt take long to learn if a you put in about 3-5 mins per day on it.

[jonescrusher]

You know when you've got the technique down, it feels great and is virtually effortless.

Spot on - again it's down to what terminologies we've been exposed to when taught the system. If you've been taught by Morello and Chapin, then ther's little point in debating these terms. I know i've been taught it correctly, 'cause it 'feels great and is virtuallly effortless'. peace

[Class A Drummer]

HOW TO DO THE MOELLER TECHNIQUE VIDEO.


http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=108528#post108528

[h3r3tic]

hey guys :)

i´ve been playing drums for like 5 years and only now i´ve learn some techniques and i´ve been wondering if we could use the moeller philosophy in it. I mean like the whip-rebound...

Thank you for your pacience

[Symbolic]

Yes, it is really easy. Blast beats are just straight singles split up over 2 sound sources, use the moeller just like you would otherwise.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

The moeller is not for censecutive accents, guys. The moeller starts low and ends low. The free stroke is what you should use to play several strokes with the same volume.
DPS

[Chip]

The moeller is not for censecutive accents, guys.

What are you talking about? It can be used for it, watch the Jojo Mayer video on the moeller. You may say, 'oh this isn't the proper (is there a correct moeller?) moeller though', but hey, it gets the job done doesn't it?

[Raymond Bloom]

What are you talking about? It can be used for it, watch the Jojo Mayer video on the moeller. You may say, 'oh this isn't the proper (is there a correct moeller?) moeller though', but hey, it gets the job done doesn't it?
''blast beats'' are accented strokes but the Moeller wip can be done with at least one accented and at least one non accented stroke, the colsest thing you can get is 8th notes with every first stroke accented

[Chip]

It can be played as RRRR or LLLL, watch the Jojo video. It doesn't have to be RrRr or LlLl.

[Raymond Bloom]

It can be played as RRRR or LLLL, watch the Jojo video. It doesn't have to be RrRr or LlLl.
I have watched all the possible Jojo Mayer videos, I have that Modern drummer 2005 DVD, and I have got a few clinics with Jojo Mayer himself, so I know what I'm talking about :-)
It's not possible to accent every stroke with Moeller method

[Jeff Almeyda]

I have watched all the possible Jojo Mayer videos, I have that Modern drummer 2005 DVD, and I have got a few clinics with Jojo Mayer himself, so I know what I'm talking about :-)
It's not possible to accent every stroke with Moeller method

Correct!! There is no way to use a Moeller whip to get multiple consecutive accents. In other words the "down" will always be louder than the "taps". This is high school physics here. The second or tap" stroke could not possibly be as loud as the downstroke. Remember, you are relying on the initial stoke momentum to play the following tap notes.

A similar thing occurs with finger technique. While in the middle of a fast single stroke roll with fingers it is impossible to get an accents without "shifting gears" and using the wrist. Thomas Lang discussed this in his MD interview. Different tools for different jobs.

Every blast beat guy I've seen uses mainly fingers. Show me a blast beat done with Moeller technique and I'll eat my hat.

[Chip]

Jojo's moeller video (http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/Jojomayermoeller.html)
This is the one it's in, he does it in around the minute mark, he describes it as a "moeller pumping motion", although it's only in traditional grip, so I don't know about matched. I really don't see the point of blast beats though. Just my opinion.
I know jack all about the Moeller other than Derrick's video's, this is just something I thought would be interesting to see, as they are all accents, and he describes it as the moeller.

[Raymond Bloom]

Jojo's moeller video (http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/Jojomayermoeller.html)
This is the one it's in, he does it in around the minute mark, he describes it as a "moeller pumping motion", although it's only in traditional grip, so I don't know about matched. I really don't see the point of blast beats though. Just my opinion.
I know jack all about the Moeller other than Derrick's video's, this is just something I thought would be interesting to see, as they are all accents, and he describes it as the moeller.
It's not only in trad grip! If I get a camera tomorrow I'll record myself doing Moeller 8th notes with my right hand (matched) for you @ ~260 bpm :-)
But as you can CLEARLY see in his video, the pumping motion consists of one anccented and one or more non accented strokes!

[Chip]

I know moeller can be done in matched, I meant the pumping motion(I didn't know if the pumping motion could be done in matched). But with the 2 going in a blast beat, nobody will really be able to tell of the accent on the first anyway, unless it is really weak, unlike in the Jojo video. We are talking about blast beats, where does dynamics come into that! Hehehe.
I have been practicing the moeller, and it seems if one gives a little more help from the hand/wrist on the way up, the accents could become barely noticable. And at a miked gig, possibly with compressers etc, who would notice anyway? It doesn't seem really worth it.

[Raymond Bloom]

I know moeller can be done in matched, I meant the pumping motion(I didn't know if the pumping motion could be done in matched). But with the 2 going in a blast beat, nobody will really be able to tell of the accent on the first anyway, unless it is really weak, unlike in the Jojo video. We are talking about blast beats, where does dynamics come into that! Hehehe.
I have been practicing the moeller, and it seems if one gives a little more help from the hand/wrist on the way up, the accents could become barely noticable. And at a miked gig, possibly with compressers etc, who would notice anyway? It doesn't seem really worth it.
When he shows 8th notes, yeah, it's pretty even sounding, but again, there are these accents on every first stroke of each 8th note!! about micing, triggering... yeah, well it could make it more even and not so noticable

also don't judge by Jojo's abilities, he's alien :-)

[hotsauce3n]

I think that Jim Chapin's video is great to watch because he studied with moeller and he is obsessed with spreading it. His video does get a little repetitive but the concepts in it are great for playing bursts of fast notes and learning how to increase your overall speed. one thing i have found is that this techinique does not just work with hands, but with feet too, and he should have incorporated that in his video.

you should check it out but he only plays on a practice pad and it gets a little repetitive after a while. also this can be played with out accented and unaccented notes, it can be played at any dynamic. its more of a thrown stroke and to bounce strokes following by continueing the motion of the wrist upward, until the snap of the thrown stroke again.

[low-tech]

i believe the moeller technique produces the highest volume with blasts, the unaccented notes will be alot louder than notes comming from the fingers. most death metal drummers stroke from the fingers and usually need to be aided with mics

basically id rather do a slower, louder blastbeat with moeller than a fast,quiet blast with finger control.

if your blasts are quiet it defeats the purpose of playing them

[Raymond Bloom]

if your blasts are quiet it defeats the purpose of playing them
Well, in that case, use triggers! :-)

[h3r3tic]

Well, in that case, use triggers! :-)
trigers? how? can you explain me how can i do that please?

[low-tech]

Well, in that case, use triggers! :-)


triggers defeat the purpose of playing on a drumset

[Raymond Bloom]

triggers defeat the purpose of playing on a drumset
Why do you think so? It's just an electronic device which adds more possibilities to accoustic drumset. In this case we are talking about that triggers could make the snare hits louder, so if you don't like that fact then you are against micing either, huh?

[low-tech]

no micing is fine, but not every drummer or band carries a PA and not every venue will have one so its a good idea that everything you play with a band can be reasonably audible, soundmen are the most hack position in the history of employment and cant be relied upon to provide volume for you if you cant play loud enough<im talking normal venues, not arenas>, ive seen countless bad mixes with drums in regards to metal bands, seen entire sets from bands that consisted of ghostnoted blastbeats from 7A stick "tappers", its horrendous



drums are an acoustic instrument, all a trigger does is simulate a sound, you need a module, PA and speaker boxes to provide that sound. therefore it defeats the purpose of having drums. you might as well have an electronic kit because its those speaker that are providing the sound. im alittle more sympathetic towards triggered double kick. but i believe that its unecessary because there are drummers in existence who play extreme metal who dont use the trigger.

case in point. the drummer of the band phobia

triggers allows a drummer to be musically lethargic towards developing technique thats effecient volumewise, there is a reason why you dont hear alot of rudiments in most 90s death and black metal,grindcore........they simply arent loud enough without the aid of the trigger or superior studio micing.

we play an acoustic instrument, a sampled sound defeats the purpose for why drums are designed the way they are. you see dudes with 1200-1500$ kits made out of expensive exotic wood, but the sound those drums produce are provided from a program from a module. its possibly the most retarded thing ever

[Chip]

you see dudes with 1200-1500$ kits made out of expensive exotic wood, but the sound those drums produce are provided from a program from a module. its possibly the most retarded thing ever
Agreed. I despise this, it's a waste of good drums. I saw a guy on a show the other day, a drummer for a pop singer or something, had a Sonor snare drum triggered to sound like one of those crappy synth ones. Such a waste, I could trade, he could trigger my crappy snare, and I could happily have his Sonor.

[low-tech]

there are drummers who use triggers in a tasteful way, usually outside of metal. my roomate triggers for unusual sampled sound and the like. its more useful for experimentation with avante guard stuff.

but if its obviously used to compensate a lack in volume, im totally against it.

another thing about double kick triggers, it never mixes well live, you hear this techno like robot-click sounding bass from speakerboxes, then you hear the rest of the kit from where you are supposed to hear it. sometimes all you hear is the kick because the guy cant keep the rest of the beat loud, even if the remaining drums are miced.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

i believe the moeller technique produces the highest volume with blasts, the unaccented notes will be a lot louder than notes coming from the fingers.
You have no idea what you are talking about, sorry to put this so bluntly...the Moeller "whip" technique
1) starts and ends low, so if used for consecutive notes, you would have a VERY slow blast beat
2) is not the only way to play loud with the wrist; using the free stroke, you can play powerful strokes without the Moeller. Beyond this volume and speed, you may need triggers to get the desired effect, as discussed below.

DPS

[low-tech]

You have no idea what you are talking about, sorry to put this so bluntly...the Moeller "whip" technique
1) starts and ends low, so if used for consecutive notes, you would have a VERY slow blast beat
2) is not the only way to play loud with the wrist; using the free stroke, you can play powerful strokes without the Moeller. Beyond this volume and speed, you may need triggers to get the desired effect, as discussed below.

DPS


i think the "whip" keeps the blast in flux longer,for me, and also it doesnt need to be the most dramatic "whip" in which there will be accents completely noticable. its what i use, it works for me. i think my speed is good, obviously not the fastest in the world but competent enough.

you say free stroke from the wrist is better for you, fine. what i see usually is that drummers using light sticks playing blasts with good technique for speed,usually from the fingers,but arent loud enough. my criticism goes to those people. i think moeller is louder,therefore more effecient. not putting forth proven facts, just my opinion.

and if anyone has ever seen phobias drummer the discreprency between LOUD and audible is vast, hands and feet. the point of blasts is to be loud as it is fast, actually volume compensates for speed moreso then the latter,imo.


and as discussed below,the trigger is totally an invalidation on why drums are made the way they are, its a total disregard to thier original sound. a mortal sin unto the gods above. its cosmetic surgery. granted i like alot of drummer who do trigger and i understand its the status quo among metal drummers, it works well on recordings,in arena setting with superior sound mixing capabilities. but its not the path im gonna follow. its not needed for the average size venues where the firepower of amps and the acoustic nature of drums should be well effecient.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

... it doesnt need to be the most dramatic "whip" in which there will be accents completely noticeable....
If the accents aren't noticeable, then you are not playing the Moeller pumping motion but full strokes, which is the way to do consecutive notes at consistent volume. So it appears we agree, we just had to get the semantics right. DPS

[low-tech]

yes there will be accents. im currently learning to play fast from the fingers anyway because i know that technique is not without merit for general use, so my criticism of it only goes as far as blastbeats.

[Backwards Marathon]

Hey all i recently just watched Derriks video on the moeller technique and i have one question about it. this is a really stupid question but i really want to learn the moeller technique. i was just wondering can you still do the moeller technique playing matched? because all the examples ive seen of the moeller technique have been people playing traditional. thanks a lot.

Wes

[Raymond Bloom]

Hey all i recently just watched Derriks video on the moeller technique and i have one question about it. this is a really stupid question but i really want to learn the moeller technique. i was just wondering can you still do the moeller technique playing matched? because all the examples ive seen of the moeller technique have been people playing traditional. thanks a lot.

Wes

Sure it can be done in matched grip! Actually weird, Derrick shows Moeller technique with both hands in his video, so I dunno why you still have a question like that!

[h3r3tic]

ok, well i´ve got thank you guys for writing your opinions. I downloaded today a video of johnny rabb "30 days to better hands" and i think that there´s the stuff i need to learn how to do a good blast, by using finger control

I think that i´de rather practise on finger control to have a loud fast blast then a slow lower blast. what do you think about this finger control?

[h3r3tic]

the same thing happened to me my friend. the video is excelent and i´ve been learning this tecnique for like a month ago and while watching the video i tried to play traditional which worked out great but then i tried to do moeller on matched grip and i feel momre confortable (i´ve been playing matched since day 1 on the drums).

So I say that the moeller is completly possible to be done on matched grip, because i do it on matched, so no worries my friend!

but continue to see the video. once you´ve got into the concept of the moeller then try to speed up. you´ll see how cool it is :)

And remeber that you´re in a forum, where there´s people to help you up, so your question´s not a stupid one;)

Peace

[Raymond Bloom]

ok, well i´ve got thank you guys for writing your opinions. I downloaded today a video of johnny rabb "30 days to better hands" and i think that there´s the stuff i need to learn how to do a good blast, by using finger control

I think that i´de rather practise on finger control to have a loud fast blast then a slow lower blast. what do you think about this finger control?
Fingercontroll is the way to achieve the fastest posssible speed! All the speed records are done using fingercontroll.

About the Moeller technique, well, I can play 8th notes with one hand at ~260 bpm, dunno if it's slow... :-) and Moeller is loud, because of these accents, I can do the push-pull thing or fingercontroll at similar speed but it isn't as loud!

When I get my hands on a video camera I'll record a clip

[millersc]

You can definetly do Moeller with matched grip. Just use the same technique that you have been learning with the right hand and duplicate it on the left.

[Jared_Falk]

I understand how you can get it mixed up. The majority of instructors who teach Moeller really well use matched grip. I've had some students who thought that they had to use traditional grip to play jazz. But thats not the case at all.

[LinearDrummer]

can you still do the moeller technique playing matched?


Of course - whatever goes for the right hand is the same for the left in match....
IMO it looks cooler with the traditional.....

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

IMO it looks cooler with the traditional.....
And your signature says "not to play what looks cool". Or maybe you disagree with Weckl here? DPS

[LinearDrummer]

And your signature says "not to play what looks cool". Or maybe you disagree with Weckl here? DPS



Yeah Yeah...surely there must be a couple of exceptions to the rule :- )

[Backwards Marathon]

ok thanks a lot
20 characters

[gazzdw]

hey, does anyone know if its possible to get jim chapins speed,power,endurance,control vid to work on english video tape players?
alternativly is there another video or dvd done by someone else with as much of an in-depth to the moeller system as much as jim chapins tape?
thanks v much
gazzareth of nazzareth

[finnhiggins]

I don't think you'll have a lot of luck finding an NTSC-compatible deck in the UK, unless you go to a specialist video place and get them to digitise it for you to DVD or something - and that technically might constitute a breach of copyright so they may refuse.

As for an equivilent release that explains moeller, my advice would be to wait for JoJo Mayer's technique DVD which is due out later in the year. He's a phenomenal contemporary player who puts some very traditional techniques (Moeller, Gladstone and more) to extremely practical use, and he's a good talker too.

[JIM_fear]

You might want to check out Derrick Pope's moeller technique video:
http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10528
It's definitely worth watching at least once.

[skippy]

I don't think you'll have a lot of luck finding an NTSC-compatible deck in the UK, unless you go to a specialist video place and get them to digitise it for you to DVD or something - and that technically might constitute a breach of copyright so they may refuse.

As for an equivilent release that explains moeller, my advice would be to wait for JoJo Mayer's technique DVD which is due out later in the year. He's a phenomenal contemporary player who puts some very traditional techniques (Moeller, Gladstone and more) to extremely practical use, and he's a good talker too.

i cant wait for jojo's dvd. im so excited.

[musical_drummer]

Hi! has anyone here ever heard about the moeller method? They said this method will make us play really fast! Is there anyone here already played and master his moeller method? And could anyone tell me what website could teach me this drum technique. Thx

[Latin Groover]

You really have to actually look. This is a forum of/for drummers, its the best forum in the world so everything about drums is here, just look. And you dont even need to look. There's sticky's about theres derricks thread and tons of others. It is technique, so just have a look there first. Go to the technique section and you'll find everything, and its only 1 click away, you dont even need to search.

[h3r3tic]

Hi :)

I advise you widely to download Derrick Pope´s videos

[MOONCHILD]

his nick name is djp123 find a video and im sure you will be satisfied

[h3r3tic]

His videos were the ONLY ones that I find VERY EDUCATIVE on the moeller. He explains the details step-by-step.

Trust me, you won´t regret it :)

[JWM]

Hey guys (and gals!) --

I've been finding a lot recently just how much my Moeller technique has been improved by working things on the hats. Let me explain...

The edge of the hat is for the whipped accent (played with the shoulder of the stick) and the top is for the unaccented stroke (played with the tip of the stick). This is allowing me to really isolate accented and unaccented strokes with the Moeller motion. It's also serves as a way to make a good, crisp auditory distinction between accented and unaccented strokes. I've found that it's especially helpful for upstrokes where it's less about rebound and more about generating the accented stroke off of the unaccented stroke/s (such as accenting the second note of doubles or the third note of something like 1e& - 2e& - etc.).

Try a rudiment session with Moeller on your hats... it's done good things for me, so I thought I'd pass it along.

Cheers and happy drumming.

[Davidb59]

Hey guys (and gals!) --

I've been finding a lot recently just how much my Moeller technique has been improved by working things on the hats. Let me explain...

The edge of the hat is for the whipped accent (played with the shoulder of the stick) and the top is for the unaccented stroke (played with the tip of the stick). This is allowing me to really isolate accented and unaccented strokes with the Moeller motion. It's also serves as a way to make a good, crisp auditory distinction between accented and unaccented strokes. I've found that it's especially helpful for upstrokes where it's less about rebound and more about generating the accented stroke off of the unaccented stroke/s (such as accenting the second note of doubles or the third note of something like 1e& - 2e& - etc.).

Try a rudiment session with Moeller on your hats... it's done good things for me, so I thought I'd pass it along.

Cheers and happy drumming.

It's exactly what my teacher started with me in lesson number 2. He's been drumming it in since then.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Hey guys (and gals!) --

I've been finding a lot recently just how much my Moeller technique has been improved by working things on the hats. Let me explain...

The edge of the hat is for the whipped accent (played with the shoulder of the stick) and the top is for the unaccented stroke (played with the tip of the stick). This is allowing me to really isolate accented and unaccented strokes with the Moeller motion. It's also serves as a way to make a good, crisp auditory distinction between accented and unaccented strokes. I've found that it's especially helpful for upstrokes where it's less about rebound and more about generating the accented stroke off of the unaccented stroke/s (such as accenting the second note of doubles or the third note of something like 1e& - 2e& - etc.).

Try a rudiment session with Moeller on your hats... it's done good things for me, so I thought I'd pass it along.

Cheers and happy drumming.

I use a two-note Moeller motion on the hi-hat for a shuffle, adds a nice flow.

I ripped it off from Gadd

[beatsMcGee]

ditto.... i do moller for shuffles too... like on the icanplaydrums.com he explains the importance of it for the 'fool in the rain' shuffle by Bonham... very useful technique for dynamics and that shuffle pattern/groove

[JWM]

I'm actually recommending though to work on rudiments and such: doubles (especially with the second note accented), singles, paradiddles, flams, etc.

I've found you have to be very precise about the movements when going for doing every accented stroke on the edge with the shoulder of the stick and every unaccented stroke on the top with the tip. This really forces the Moeller movement, and once you go back to snare, you might really feel a difference.

[beatsMcGee]

oh gotya... yea that would be a good work out and i bet it would really enhance the sound of your hi hat work

[Backwards Marathon]

yeah thats the same thing i did to practise my double strokes.

[gazzdw]

hey peeps,
ive been practicing moeller technique for a few months and i can do a single stroke triplet consecutive roll pretty well. But its the only roll i can do with it (accents on 1), ive watched Derrik's moeller video over focusing on the alternate triplet bit at the end, but he doesnt actually say how to do it. So i was wondering if anyone can give me assistance on how do that and also on how to put accents in different places using moeller cuz im baffled
thanks aload
gazz.

[centralzeke]

Any Moeller accent is the same motion.. there's nothing different about it except where it falls. Practice slowly?

[jonescrusher]

Hi gazzdw,

It sounds like you need to keep practising the 'up-down' motion that each hand uses in order to place an accent. As you are only used to placing the accent on '1' of each triplet, you will only be used to playing the upstroke on the preceding 'trip-'. Remember that a downstroke must always follow an upstroke.

Give careful thought to which part of the triplet you must play the upstroke on in order to play the following accent; try playing the upstroke on each different part of the triplet: 'one', 'trip-' and 'let'.

Take this very slowly, ie 40bpm -using a metronome is a must when learning unfamiliar accent placements.

Hope this makes some sense!

[Jeff Almeyda]

I believe you are talking about 16th notes triplets with an accent every eighth note when u refer to "alternating triplets"

For example: RlrLrl RlrLrl

What you need to realize is that this is what you are doing with one hand (Rrr or Lll) all the time. You just displace the left hand by one stroke and you have it.

In other words, The right hand is the same as you've always practiced (Rrr), the left is the same except it starts one stroke later (lLl).

Just play slow 16th note triplets while accenting every eighth note. The accent will shift from hand to hand. This is what Derrick was doing and what Chapin does. Now apply the Moeller whip to the accents and you will be able to fly with this pattern

Hope this helps.

[Auger]

Well,

With Moeller the accent is always on the down-stroke of the triplet:

DOWN - tap - up - repeat

So, to play the alternating roll, you're just playing the triplets with both hands, but staggering the start. (as jeff said in his post above mine). One thing that's perhaps a little confusing is that, you're not changing the left hand from Lll to lLl, you're just starting on the up-stroke, or last note of a triplet, to stagger the left hand from the right hand.

so it's: l Lll Lll Lll not lLl lLl lLl -which would be a lot harder to do.

That being said, the alternating triplet roll -or any of the two handed rolls with Moeller- are a lot harder to get than playing the triplets with your hands individually, so don't get discouraged. That one took me months to get up to speed. If you can play the triplets with your hands individually, you're on the right track.

To figure it out, I'd suggest playing it very, very slowly at first and don't worry about using the moeller technique -just get used to the R l r L r l R l r L r l sticking and gradually speed it up. It's like the method of learning a double-stroke roll where you first play it very, very slowly and "hit" each of the double strokes, but you gradually speed it up and, with practice, you transition into using the rebound to play the second stroke.

hope that helps!

[Drifter in the Dark]

First of all, I think it's great that more drummers like yourself are starting to learn Moeller! The way I understand it, the Moeller technique is a way to get two (or more) strokes with one hand motion, thus making drumming more efficient. The best way I can relate it to you is the way I received my "Moeller epiphany": Turn on your metronome and play the "Funky Drummer" beat. If you're doing it right, the 16th's on the hi-hat with your dominant hand should feel almost effortless.
That's just one example, but regardless of what you play, the Moeller technique will help you get more done with less effort. For me, it's a lifesaver!

[n2xlr8n]

I'm also learning this technique during the same period as you.

What I've found to be helpful is the "Building Monster Chops" idea of placing the accents not only on the "1", but on the "trip" and "let", i.e., one measure of the accent on "1, 2, 3, 4", then one measure of the accent on "1-TRIP-let" etc.

Hope I didn't confuse you, lol.

That method has allowed my hands to flow with the pattern I'm looking for in a mirror.

HTH,

S.

[gazzdw]

thanks alot all of you! im beginning to get a feel for the other options in moeller
:)

[JoeyMoon]

without wanting to hijack the thread... can anyone point me in the direction of (or tell me some) good exersizes for learning moeller? at the moment i'm working off the jim chapin description on the cyber lessons on the vic firth site, and i'm having a little trouble working out the difference between a moeller action and keeping a loose grip on the sticks.

can someone explain or point me to a better description?

cheers
Joe

[jonescrusher]

without wanting to hijack the thread... can anyone point me in the direction of (or tell me some) good exersizes for learning moeller? at the moment i'm working off the jim chapin description on the cyber lessons on the vic firth site, and i'm having a little trouble working out the difference between a moeller action and keeping a loose grip on the sticks.

can someone explain or point me to a better description?

cheers
Joe

Check out the Derrick Pope vids on Drummerworld, I've heard they're very helpful.

There really is no substitution for getting a teacher when it comes to Moeller - you need to make sure you're learning correctly otherwise there's little point....

[Auger]

joeymoon,

What moeller technique *is* is the way you move your whole arm (including grip as you pointed out). The triplets you see are an application of this technique. you can also apply it to play doubles and single strokes- or various combinations (which leads to some really neat-o stuff).

Moeller is a rebound based technique and the an important thing is to keep in mind that for single, double, or triple strokes, the motion of the arm doesn't really change.

Considering this, there are a couple of interpretations of this movement. The way Derrik does it (check out his videos in the sticky at the top of this section) is like 'throwing a baseball' where the method I've been taught is somewhat different -the stroke starts with the shoulder and you almost lead with the elbow. They both achieve, more or less, the same thing. They're all centered around moving the arm in some sort of "whipping motion."

I'd reccomend Derrik's vids for some good exercises. Also, if you can find a teacher who knows this technique like jonescrusher said, that's best, but if you can't -or cant' afford lessons- watch guys like chapin, dom famularo, jojo mayer, our own derrik, and other known moeller players. Watch how they move and when you practice, really concentrate on how you move your arms and upper body as well as your hands and the sticks.

hope that helps!

[Raymond Bloom]

Moeller is a rebound based technique

Actually - no!

Moeller basically observed US Civil War drummers cope with needing to play for long periods, in difficult conditions (like, ferinstance, being shot at) with crappy heads that had no rebound. They developed this "whipping" motion that allowed them to get multiple strokes out of a single arm movement. Moeller described this - and taught it to Jim Chapin in the 30s.

Meanwhile, Billy Gladstone - a pit drummer - was developing the rebound technique. Using decent, tensioned heads he was allowing the rebound to do the work of getting the stick back up off the head - the so-called "free stroke." Joe Morello and "Tiger" Bill Meligari are probably the most famous two exponents of Gladstone these days.

Eventually, these two techniques have become merged. The Moeller motion gives you the optimised "three strokes for a single throw" motion, and the Gladstone rebound gives you the impetus for the free stroke. This is what Dave Weckl and Steve Smith describe on their DVDs!

[Auger]

...get multiple strokes out of a single arm movement.

Sure -didn't mean to confuse Moeller and Free stroke.

But, I'm curious as to how you're differentiating -I would consider rebound a component of both techniques, but not something exclusive to either. Maybe it's just a technicality of language, but I'd consider getting multiple strokes out of a single movement to be 'rebound' -any time the stick bounces as opposed to being picked up, I'd call that rebound -no matter the technique used in making the stick bounce. Even if I just threw the stick and it bounced off the floor, I'd call that rebound, hee hee.

So I guess I'm curious as to how you mean moeller isn't a rebound technique ?

Anyway, good post, though! Definately seems like you've done your homework.

[Raymond Bloom]

Sure -didn't mean to confuse Moeller and Free stroke.

But, I'm curious as to how you're differentiating -I would consider rebound a component of both techniques, but not something exclusive to either. Maybe it's just a technicality of language, but I'd consider getting multiple strokes out of a single movement to be 'rebound' -any time the stick bounces as opposed to being picked up, I'd call that rebound -no matter the technique used in making the stick bounce. Even if I just threw the stick and it bounced off the floor, I'd call that rebound, hee hee.

So I guess I'm curious as to how you mean moeller isn't a rebound technique ?

Anyway, good post, though! Definately seems like you've done your homework.
Well sure, nowadays there's not much use of the original Moeller method, it should be ''whip-rebound-rebound'' (if talking about triplets)
I just wanted to correct that orginaly it wasn't rebound oriented technique, it become like that after the impact of Gladstone technique.

but to understand what I am talking about, try to do triplets with Moeller technique (both hands, alternated) on a pillow, then do it without the Moeller whip, it's less effort and faster with Moeller even on a dead surface because of the combination of different motions, different muscle groups into one whip!

[Jeff Almeyda]

Well,

With Moeller the accent is always on the down-stroke of the triplet:One thing that's perhaps a little confusing is that, you're not changing the left hand from Lll to lLl, you're just starting on the up-stroke, or last note of a triplet, to stagger the left hand from the right hand.

so it's: l Lll Lll Lll not lLl lLl lLl -which would be a lot harder to do.




You're right, I should have left the lLl out of it, it only served to confuse the issue. The key point is to realize that it's just a staggered version of the single hand exercise.

Thanks.

Funny thing, but "Moeller technique" itself has morphed over the years. The way Moeller showed Chapin and the way Chapin showed me definitely involved leading with the elbow.

Dom Famularo took the whip concept and further codified the Moeller into 3 distinct heights. Low, half, and full. Essentially, low is from the wrist, half is from the elbow and full is from the shoulder.

Dom took what was essentially a marching technique and adapted it more completely to modern drumset playing.

His book goes into this in more detail

[bean6022000]

I have Jim Chapin's video and have also viewed various other videos; including Derrick's excellent videos. I have gotten quite adept at the one handed Moeller strokes, but putting the hands together is still mystifying me. I'm a little confused about your guy's explanation about the "l" (upstroke) on the last note of the triplet. Is the hand to hand Moeller triplet merely played Rrr Lll Rrr Lll? I can pull off pretty good single stoke triplets, but would really like to incorperate the Moeller stroke. Can any of you guys clarify the two handed Moeller? Would the hand to hand Moeller strokes also apply to eighths and sixteenths (i.e Rl Ll Rl Ll and Rrrr Llll Rrrr Llll). Thanks much for your help. Maybe I'll finally get this thing solved!

[jonescrusher]

I have Jim Chapin's video and have also viewed various other videos; including Derrick's excellent videos. I have gotten quite adept at the one handed Moeller strokes, but putting the hands together is still mystifying me. I'm a little confused about your guy's explanation about the "l" (upstroke) on the last note of the triplet. Is the hand to hand Moeller triplet merely played Rrr Lll Rrr Lll? I can pull off pretty good single stoke triplets, but would really like to incorperate the Moeller stroke. Can any of you guys clarify the two handed Moeller? Would the hand to hand Moeller strokes also apply to eighths and sixteenths (i.e Rl Ll Rl Ll and Rrrr Llll Rrrr Llll). Thanks much for your help. Maybe I'll finally get this thing solved!


Remember the mechanics that Moeller system describes; in order to play an accented note, the stick must start from an up position, being 'whipped' down onto the head- in order to get the stick to that up position, you must play an upstroke, where your hand moves upward whilst simultaneously letting the stick drop onto the head (thus playing an unaccented stroke).

So, if you're playing hand to hand, you must play an upstoke on the stroke immediately before the note you wish to accent:


R L R L R L
D U T D U T

D = Downstroke
U = Upstroke
T = Tapstroke (unaccented stroke played low to surface with no rebound)

Note how each hand is playing an upstroke immediately before their respective downstroke accented note.
This pattern of hand movements will apply to any note grouping played hand to hand, 8ths, 16ths, quintuplets, whatever. As long as the pattern is played hand to hand then the stroke preceding a downstroke must be an upstroke.

[bean6022000]

Thank you Jonescrusher. Yeah, I know in the Chapin video he goes over the Down-Tap-Up extensively, and I got that, but I don't think Mr. Chapin explained the two hands adequately. Based on your explanation, if I were playing hand to hand Moeller triplets (with the first note accented as in the Chapin and Derrick's video), wouldn't the sticking pattern be Rrr Lll Rrr Lll
DTU DTU DTU DTU ?

Thanks Much!

[jonescrusher]

Thank you Jonescrusher. Yeah, I know in the Chapin video he goes over the Down-Tap-Up extensively, and I got that, but I don't think Mr. Chapin explained the two hands adequately. Based on your explanation, if I were playing hand to hand Moeller triplets (with the first note accented as in the Chapin and Derrick's video), wouldn't the sticking pattern be Rrr Lll Rrr Lll
DTU DTU DTU DTU ?

Thanks Much!


No, that wouldn't be hand to hand. Hand to hand triplets will involve alternating the pattern you describe there between both hands. The sticking pattern will be as i describe it - DUT DUT - RH plays downstroke, LH plays upstroke (so preparing for following LH downstroke), RH plays tapstroke - LH plays downstroke, RH plays upstroke (preparing for following RH downstroke), LH plays tapstroke.

You need to take this kind of pattern very slowly at first, to ensure you're concentrating on the movement involved in each stroke. Take it down to 40bpm. One of the hardest things i found when learning moeller was getting a correct upstroke motion. It is quite hard to get a controlled stroke from just dropping the stick on the head. Get a teacher if you can!

[JoeyMoon]

hey guys,
thanks very much for the help. Derriks vid is very very useful. A teacher is definitly on the cards as soon as i can afford it!

one little question, following Derriks vid, when i was first doing the whip and allowing the rebound to happan the stick was flying back up in odd directions. I have my snare slightly tilted to the right so the left rim is slightly higher than the right rim (like a very scaled down version of a marching snare) so i've moved it so it's even. This has solved the rebound problem but... should i be persavering with the angle till i get it right? am i taking the soft option here rather than putting in the hard work?

thing is, i'm not set hard and fast in my ways, and could be talked round to keeping my snare straight all the time. Truth be told i'm just finding my feet again (after a massive gap) and finding myself more of a beginner than i remember.

anyways, if anyone could straighten me (ahem) out that's be peachy. I'll be carrying on with it level till someone tells me it's a terrible idea.

Joe

[Auger]

Bean,

Yeah, having a teacher for this stuff helps a lot because it's kind of hard to explain without face to face interaction.

Combining the hands is step two -after you get the technique happening with the hands individually. ...and it's harder.

Here's what helped me: When you combine the hands to play a roll, remember that neither of your hands individually is doing anything different than when you're playing the one-handed triplets. You're just staggering where your hands start the triplets so that they overlap:

I suggest trying it like this first:

R: D - T - U - D - T - U - D - T - U
L: - D - T - U - D - T - U - D - T - U

Then, you can move to the alternating accents, which to me is harder. Note that the left hand starts on 'up', but then plays regular triplets.

R: D - T - U - D - T - U - D - T - U
L: - U - D - T - U - D - T - U - D - T


I hope this isn't just confusing!

This second one is easy to 'overthink' -since you said you can play pretty good triplets with single strokes (I'm assuming this is what sticking you mean you can play with singles) it helps to just try and concentrate on the moeller motion and just 'feel' it -thinking about all the downs and taps and ups with this alternating pattern can end up just tripping you up.

There's some extra coordination going on with combining the hands and, even if you have the triplets down pretty solid with the hands individually, this is really hard at first -so don't get discouraged. Like has already been said -start slow and you'll get it!




Once you get these -then you can start departing from just triplets and get some stuff that's also really fun.




joe,

-I wouldn't worry about 'taking the soft option' -just do what feels best in terms of setup! -Billy ward puts this best when he says your drumset should be your ally.

[bean6022000]

Jonescrusher and Auger:

Thank you very much for your excellent explanations. Boy did I ever have it wrong! I believe I got confused 'cause the videos focus so much on the one-handed Moeller Down-Tap-Up stroke, but really do not address the two hands; or if they do, it is so darn fast you can't really follow what is being done. Man do I ever have some work to do! Luckily my "conventional" single stroke triplets aren't too bad, and I can use those until I learn this two handed Moeller. I'm hoping to find a teacher in the local area that really knows this technique. As is evidenced by the numerous postings on this mystical Moeller subject, I'm not sure everyone has the same understanding; and I want to learn it the "right" way. I have enough bad habits to "unlearn." Once again, I am very grateful for your help, patience and understanding.

[JoeyMoon]

just getting towards the 'just let it rebound, let the stick do what it wants to do bit' pretty early on. The butt of the left stick keeps hitting my left leg... is this a set up issue? common problem? anyone share any stories?

it's funny, before i was on this forum i would have sat down and tried to work it out, now i'm here i can't think what i would have done without it...
Joe

edit: nope there's a definite problem, the index finger on my left hand is starting to hurt, my right is fine..........

[jonescrusher]

just getting towards the 'just let it rebound, let the stick do what it wants to do bit' pretty early on. The butt of the left stick keeps hitting my left leg... is this a set up issue? common problem? anyone share any stories?

it's funny, before i was on this forum i would have sat down and tried to work it out, now i'm here i can't think what i would have done without it...
Joe

edit: nope there's a definite problem, the index finger on my left hand is starting to hurt, my right is fine..........

JoeyMoon - it sounds like you have two problems, your grip and your snare position. If you keep practising, over weeks and months your grip on the stick will become more solid and your control of the rebound will improve. Remember that it takes many hours of practice to get really comfortable with a new system like moeller, you're unlikely to see results overnight early on.

Is your snare set low ie. the rim of the snare is level with or lower than the top of your leg?
You should have the drum positioned to a height at which you can rimshot comfortably without any part of the stick hitting the top of your leg.

[Raymond Bloom]

You know how I got these Moeller triplets with both hands? I started with playing triplets as usual and then I payed my attantion on playing ONLY the accents and for a bit not worrying about rebounds or being sloppy, just getting the feel of it, eventually, since I had trained my both hands isolated one form another it wasn't hard anymore to get a controll over these rebounds

If you can play these triplets when you only feel like you are only playing the accents then it's the right way!

[JoeyMoon]

JoeyMoon - it sounds like you have two problems, your grip and your snare position. If you keep practising, over weeks and months your grip on the stick will become more solid and your control of the rebound will improve. Remember that it takes many hours of practice to get really comfortable with a new system like moeller, you're unlikely to see results overnight early on.

Is your snare set low ie. the rim of the snare is level with or lower than the top of your leg?
You should have the drum positioned to a height at which you can rimshot comfortably without any part of the stick hitting the top of your leg.


thanks for that,
yeah i know and i'm not expecting over night miracles, i'm just very nervous of anything that's causing me pain as i don't want to keep at it and cause an injury...

quite right though, i did definitly experience a change, must have just altered my grip slightly and the pain was not so bad.

My snare is (now) comfotably high enough to play rim shots without hitting my leg. I think the problem was that i was following through too far on the initial whip to get the power, then as the rebound occured the butt of the stick was hitting my leg because my hand was too low. Watched the video again and came to the conclusion that ALL the power and even the follow through is generated through the whip motion and timing that correctly.

This really is fasinating, i've found it one of the most 'think about able' techniqes from a very early stage... if that makes sense. I might put something more later... at work now, must run.

Thanks for the advice guys
Joe

[h3r3tic]

Hey guys ;)
I was wondering if it would be good to practise the moeller for like 5 times a week
20 mins per day - 10 mins on macthed and 10 mins on tradtitional
Would it be good or is it just waisting time?

[jazzsnob]

Depends on how you practice.

[h3r3tic]

Depends on how you practice.

10 mins moeller triplets on matched
5 mins break
10 mins moeller triplets on traditional
what do you think?

[Class A Drummer]

I practice both. Its not like you should just do it in one grip. Im much better at matched, but its still fun trying both out.

[Mr. A.C. Perkins]

I think practicing the Moeller is great no matter how you do it. My students practice both ways, every day. 20 minutes a day is good, but continue working on the exercises you choose for as long as you can manage each day. Limiting yourself to 20 minutes a day can do exactly that, limit your abilities. As long as you continue to work on the areas where you need improvement, you can do no wrong :) Keep playing! Ted

[h3r3tic]

I think practicing the Moeller is great no matter how you do it. My students practice both ways, every day. 20 minutes a day is good, but continue working on the exercises you choose for as long as you can manage each day. Limiting yourself to 20 minutes a day can do exactly that, limit your abilities. As long as you continue to work on the areas where you need improvement, you can do no wrong :) Keep playing! Ted

Thanks for the good advise! ;)
Man this is no doubt a great drum community :)
OH by the way...
After the first week I´ll increase the pratise to 10 mor mins for each grip

Peace

You´re Canadian?
Cool! I was born in Vancouver B.C great country;)
Hope to see you some day

[JacobKaye]

Hello to all...

O.K., you're absolutely right! I've read the part to avoid posting ideas, concepts, etc. that have already been posted. However, a question those concerned. Are there any other "outlets" for an instructor to pursue refining the craft of teaching while reaching a wider range of students?

"Its great to have the ability and skill that you obviously have, but there needs to be an outlet where people can see it and recognize the talent for what it is." quoted from an email response from Derrick Pope

That being said, if you could give some feed back about the following videos? (My first experiences with video...so there were technical difficulties a) using a microphone & 2) compression issues for these videos.) Please don't repeat these issues...and thank you all, in advance.

Click here (http://www.youtube.com/jacobkaye)...the video entitled, "Moeller Method Exclusively (condensed version)"

1) Begins with and "Opener"
2) Slower (individual) hand movements...triplets-16th notes
3) Slower (played together) hand movements

Part 2) is posted below! Demonstrates that once the "individual" hand movements have become "part of you". The part 2, below exercise is used to "transition" both hands into a cohesive "oneness" .... It's also more applicable to an actual playing situation. For those with little patience...(As opposed to exercises for exercise-sake) Enjoy & Learn....

[centralzeke]

Wow just great! You have hand technique that everyone wishes they had and perfect Moeller, you da man..

[Deathmetalconga]

Damn, you're good!

www.terrasonus.com

[bromasi]

Your about where I am except I'm a little slower and I seem to be stuck at this one speed,I guess I need some more practice.But you look like you have a good start. Great work keep it up.

[h3r3tic]

WOW!, ABSOLUTLY FANTASTIC!

continue with the GOOD WORK ;)

[DrumMasterDave]

Yah man, Very nice Video. One of the better moeller videos out there. And that alot, since there are quite a few!

[dan]

good drumming

baruch hashem :)

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Very nice. But I expect nothing less from "arguably the greatest living jazz drummer", as the bio states. DPS

[JacobKaye]

Hey Doc,

To quote a Chapinism: "You've gotta make a riot!" or an even older quote:
"If I'm not for myself, who is for me?...and If I am only for myself, what am I?...and If not now, when?"

Thanks Doc...

[JacobKaye]

Wow just great! You have hand technique that everyone wishes they had and perfect Moeller, you da man..

Thank you "centralzeke" for both taking the time to view & comment on the video...It's greatly appreciated...

[JacobKaye]

Damn, you're good!

www.terrasonus.com

"Time" is one of those things that can not be replaced after having been used. Thank you "Deathmetalconga" for taking some "time"...to view & comment on the video...and I enjoyed your "old-world" web-site design concept...

[JacobKaye]

Your about where I am except I'm a little slower and I seem to be stuck at this one speed,I guess I need some more practice.But you look like you have a good start. Great work keep it up.

As you already know...stay loose, practising. Possibly, more important, keep up the motivation toward consistent practise, with the goal of breaking your current speed! Guess, it's safe to say most of us reach a level of facility and are satisfied with it....that tends to slow our progress...We have to get "hungry" again.

[djp132]

it's safe to say most of us reach a level of facility and are satisfied with it....that tends to slow our progress...We have to get "hungry" again.

One of the pieces of wisdom that Johnny Rabb gave me was that its important to always be taking your steps in a true and forward way. That may seem painfully obvious at face value, but too often drummers take their steps in practicing and playing sideways or diagonally, or they are trying to leap too far or trying to cheat around the path with gimmicky tricks. Make sure that every day, not only in your drumming but in life as well, that what you are doing is a true and honest step forward toward that next level or the goal that you are aiming for. The size of the step is not as important as the act of taking the step.

Jacob rules.

[Jeff Almeyda]

One of the pieces of wisdom that Johnny Rabb gave me was that its important to always be taking your steps in a true and forward way. That may seem painfully obvious at face value, but too often drummers take their steps in practicing and playing sideways or diagonally, or they are trying to leap too far or trying to cheat around the path with gimmicky tricks. Make sure that every day, not only in your drumming but in life as well, that what you are doing is a true and honest step forward toward that next level or the goal that you are aiming for. The size of the step is not as important as the act of taking the step.

Jacob rules.

Good advice from Rabb via Derrick.

And Jacob does rule. I wonder how many fantastic drummers are out there that I've never heard of?

[JacobKaye]

One of the pieces of wisdom that Johnny Rabb gave me was that its important to always be taking your steps in a true and forward way. That may seem painfully obvious at face value, but too often drummers take their steps in practicing and playing sideways or diagonally, or they are trying to leap too far or trying to cheat around the path with gimmicky tricks. Make sure that every day, not only in your drumming but in life as well, that what you are doing is a true and honest step forward toward that next level or the goal that you are aiming for. The size of the step is not as important as the act of taking the step.

Jacob rules.

Derrick,

Mazel Tov on your new site! (it's a good thing) & you should have "bracha le hatzlacha"! (blessing for success) in your venture...

[JacobKaye]

Good advice from Rabb via Derrick.

And Jacob does rule. I wonder how many fantastic drummers are out there that I've never heard of?

Thank you Jeff...as a very wise man said, "Words that come from the heart...go to the heart." Your are very kind...

[JacobKaye]

Great chops....!!!!....

Thank you Andy B...let's hear some from you?

[JacobKaye]

Click here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV61c_5J1qc)...

A follow-up to Moeller Method Exclusively (condensed version) which focused on "individual" hand movements...this exercise uses both hands... demonstrated slow to medium tempo.

[JacobKaye]

A follow-up to Moeller Method Exclusively (condensed version) which focused on "individual" hand movements...this exercise uses both hands... demonstrated slow to medium tempo. Click here (<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HV61c_5J1qc"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HV61c_5J1qc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="600" height="350"></embed></object>)

[Muckster]

Jacob,

Thank you for sharing. Excellent website!

[Drum101]

Does anyone have any specific excercises that help build technique and coordination for the moeller technique? I've managed to develop the basic motion with both hands seperately for adding in extra ghost notes, but I'm having a really hard time developing the independence to incorportate it into more advanced applications, like holding the fast 3-note ride pattern while improvising the left hand (ex. fast jazz).

If anyone has tips on taking this technique to the next level, I'd love to hear them. Thanks! :)

[jazzsnob]

Well, for fast jazz, good double strokes can never be practiced enough. I think Derrick Pope has a good video on applying the moeller. Other than that, you really need to use the search button.

[Class A Drummer]

This helped me alot with traditional moeller.

www.vicfirth.com

Go to the steve smith page, im not sure if the vid is still there, but there use to be a video with a good way to work out the proper motion of the moeller techinique.

[h3r3tic]

Jim Chapin´s video has moeller exercises. Most of the dvd is about the moeller ;)
I have it and it´s really cool :), very useful exercises

[ILikeMacs]

I really good thing I saw (I think Billy Ward not sure) do was play what looked like a 3 stroke technique, but 1 hand on each tom going donwards. then you do the same thing with the left hand, and thats how you (he) gets a blazing tom roll from top to bottom. havent quite Mastered it yet, but its a hella good idea!

[JacobKaye]

Although the method is best learnt "one on one"...here's a basic intro:

[n2xlr8n]

Although the method is best learnt "one on one"...here's a basic intro:


Would you mind expounding on "flyback", technically?

Thanks for the input.

S.

[Drum101]

Well, for fast jazz, good double strokes can never be practiced enough. I think Derrick Pope has a good video on applying the moeller. Other than that, you really need to use the search button.

Been there, done that, looking for more. Derrick is the closest thing I found to free information on how to apply the moeller, and that's stuff I already know how to do.

In any case, it doesn't matter. I've already brewed over a list of excercises that could help me achieve ultimate moeller independence. Maybe I should post them in a different thread, so you have a better idea of what I'm going for. :)

then you do the same thing with the left hand, and thats how you (he) gets a blazing tom roll from top to bottom. havent quite Mastered it yet, but its a hella good idea!

I can do that with alternating hands, just not with the moellers placed together as single strokes. But yeah, it is quite a useful idea.

[DrumMasterDave]

Hey, I found a DVD on it here at www.moellermethod.com. Was wondering if any of you got this dvd, and if its any good?

[JacobKaye]

Would you mind expounding on "flyback", technically?

Thanks for the input.

S.

Ok..finally, "flyback" defined. Simply put: avoid locking your wrists & allow the drum sticks to move "freely" within your hands during all Moeller movements. (up strokes, down strokes & taps).

[JacobKaye]

Does anyone have any specific excercises that help build technique and coordination for the moeller technique? I've managed to develop the basic motion with both hands seperately for adding in extra ghost notes, but I'm having a really hard time developing the independence to incorportate it into more advanced applications, like holding the fast 3-note ride pattern while improvising the left hand (ex. fast jazz).

If anyone has tips on taking this technique to the next level, I'd love to hear them. Thanks! :)

Have you tried the exercise page posted in this forum under: "Drum Technique", entitled: Moeller Method Exclusively (Condensed Edition)?

[Wavelength]

Hey, I found a DVD on it here at www.moellermethod.com. Was wondering if any of you got this dvd, and if its any good?

Stay clear of Jared Falk's products! It's just aggressively marketed and overpriced information which is available for free right here in Drummerworld. Just check out Derrick's videos and work on it yourself. And get a teacher; it's far cheaper and more effective than any DVD.

[centralzeke]

Hey Jacob are you good at Moeller with matched grip? I wanna see it.

[JacobKaye]

Hey Jacob are you good at Moeller with matched grip? I wanna see it.

Honestly, I've been playing, professionally, both matched and traditional grips for over 20 yrs. My opinion is that it doesn't matter whether you play matched or traditional...you're either a good drummer or the opposite of a good drummer. To answer your question succinctly., I'm equally as proficient. at both approaches...You can check some of my videos on my site emphasising the "open-hand" (matched grip) approach. There are a couple; one doing a Dave Garibaldi pattern, a Gary Chester pattern, an improvised "feel" thing...

Do you have any videos to view?

all the best

[JacobKaye]

I truely thank all those who have posted a response, whether it be positive or otherwise. A further point, I have no intentions of deleting any responses (critical or otherwise)...Learning, for my part, is done at many levels using many approaches.

This attachment offers some "capsulized" ideas for putting both hands together. Once, you are comfortable with each hand, independently...

Enjoy & thank you all again...

[JacobKaye]

Ok try this on for size? (not exactly moeller... more independence related)

Using the same sticking for the paradiddle-diddle, but phraseing it in a "five note" motif...and playing it in four...of course once it's solid on the Snare then we can move our, for instance, left hand around the kit creating melodic effect.

[meandhimcallitus]

Am not going to lie, your one of my favorite members Jacob. Greatplaying
P.S Ive been posting your vids around diff. forums...to say the very least, am not the only one who enjoys your vids.

[meandhimcallitus]

Btw where do you teach? Because I am going to move in 3 years to PIT (Cali) or Drummers Collective (NY) and sadly I would have to change drum teacher and if your close to one of those two I wouldnt mind getting drum lessons

[JacobKaye]

Hello meandhimcallitus.

Thank you for your compliments and insights on the videos... and related to teaching: I work toward the goal of teaching one weekend in N.Y. per month. (Teaching the remainder of the month in Montreal) When this becomes consistently successful I'll "adapt and overcome" to longer periods of time in N.Y. I hope this is of benefit and addresses your question regarding instruction.

All the best,

[borknagar6]

I can do the Moeller Tech. with the rest it's perfect but when I try it without the rest I can't get it down. The stick just bounces faster when I try to move my wrist faster to make another hit.

Anything I can do to get rid of the rest? I've tried relaxing my fingers but I can't seem to find a way to do it.

[spw]

The way i over came the rest was to slow it WAY down
I looked at the hand mechanics. Once the hand makes the whip and initial impact, it immediately starts moving for another impact WHILE the rebounds are happening.
So to develope this I actually made the 3 strokes intentional hand strokes, meaning it was 3 strokes not 1 stroke and 2 rebounds, and while i was making these 3 strokes i did it while moving my hands in the correct action.
Then once i got the feel of the hand motion, i just simply made the initial whip and made the same hand motion and let the 2 other rebounds happen.

Steve Smith's dvd showed him doing this and it really helped me, also Jacob Kaye's site and vids helped, also Derrick Pope's. I use Derrick's practice routine of drilling each hand seperate, then together, I also added alternating.

Let me say I haven't been playing very long at all (less than a yr), and i can't do moellers fast, but this is how i broke down the problem of getting rid of that rest. I also do my drilling with a met, so my spacing sounds correct.

Drumming is a very physical pursuit, you are learning to move your body in certain ways, learning body mechanics and body/limb coordination, look at pattern problems this way and for me it's easier to find solutions.

[Auger]

When You say 'rest' I'm assuming you mean you're using the moeller technique to play triplets and you can't do it without a rest between each triplet?

First, let me digress for a second. Moeller technique isn't triplets, it's the way you move your arm -a.k.a. the technique you use- to hit a drum. You can play singles (not talking about a single stroke roll here), doubles, triplets, rudiments -really, any sticking pattern with Moeller technique as long as there are accented strokes.

So, here's the thing. There are several interpretations of Moeller technique. If you watch Derrick Pope apply it, then watch Jim Chapin, then watch Dom Famularo, then watch Steve Smith or any of the others who use it and you'll see they all do it a little differently. But, the thing they all have in common is some sort of whipping motion. They may produce it in different ways, but that whipping motion is what you need to concentrate on in order to loose the 'rest' in between the triplets. Remember this -you said you tried altering your grip and loosening your fingers -but you need to zoom back the camera -the whipping motion involves your arm -all the way up to the shoulder in the method I was taught. An analogy that helps for all interpretations of moeller technique (at least, it helped me) is to think of your arm as a piece of rope. Now, think about whipping several waves through the rope. It's continuous and, if one end of the rope is your stick, notice that, as your stick is descending to strike the drum the other end of the rope is being lifted to form the next wave. Keep this image in your mind and try to recreate that flowing motion so that, as the stick is striking the drum, your arm is rising to form the beginning of the next wave -so, don't think of it like a series of movements, but one continuous flowing motion.

Spw's advice is pretty much right on. Also try exaggerating the whipping to the point of ridiculousness at first.

Seeing a teacher who knows this technique is best -hopefully this is helpful and not just confusing.

[h3r3tic]

I used to have the same problem when I was learning the moeller by Derrick Pope's video.
The key is to mentaly tell yourself to "cut" the "rest" while practsing the moeller.

[JacobKaye]

Hello all,

I've attached a short "practise-pad" Moeller Method video. One of the "out takes" from a podcast a while ago... you can also go to a previous post Moeller Method Exclusively (condensed version) (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19974) for more videos and print outs.

If you like give some feed back...or just view.

[bart60]

great vid, but maybe you should show the exagerated movement of the left in traditional as well. it is quite different from matched. :)

[JacobKaye]

You are absolutely correct... this was an out-take from a larger video. I wasn't certain is there were that many players using traditional grip...
Thank you

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Hello all,

I've attached a short "practise-pad" Moeller Method video. One of the "out takes" from a podcast a while ago... you can also go to a previous post Moeller Method Exclusively (condensed version) (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19974) for more videos and print outs.

If you like give some feed back...or just view.

Jacob, I like your style, very easy going, and pleasant. Very important for a teacher, and you cant buy it for money!

About technique, from what Dom taught me, I feel you are straining your right wrist a bit, what I call keyboard wrist. Dom always accentuates that the wrist should be straight. Just thought I would comment, since you asked for comments.
Regards, DPS

[Class A Drummer]

Really cool video man.

Awsome beard.

[Shane G]

I feel you are straining your right wrist a bit....Dom always accentuates that the wrist should be straight.
I agree.

The wrist should be flat upon impact w/the drum (or pad).

Jacob's seems to be curved somewhat.

[JacobKaye]

Jacob, I like your style, very easy going, and pleasant. Very important for a teacher, and you cant buy it for money!

About technique, from what Dom taught me, I feel you are straining your right wrist a bit, what I call keyboard wrist. Dom always accentuates that the wrist should be straight. Just thought I would comment, since you asked for comments.
Regards, DPS

Ok... let's get specific... perhaps I'm missing the point. If it's a question of the distance from hand position in relation to playing surface. If I'm not particularily concerned, as I threw the pad on the snare at the last minute.


Thank you,

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I agree.

The wrist should be flat upon impact w/the drum (or pad).

Jacob's seems to be curved somewhat.

This I do not see as a concern. What I am talking about is the wrist being bent outwards, just like when using a computer keyboard. DPS

[deltadrummer1]

What I am talking about is the wrist being bent outwards, just like when using a computer keyboard. DPS

I see what you're talking about DPS. But what's the harm in playing with the wrist being bent outwards? Subjecting yourself to carpal tunnel one day or just bad technique?
I'm concerned now because I see this "keyboard wrist" in my own left hand playing back-beats on the snare drum. To fix it, I raised and angled my snare drum toward me. I thought that would help.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I see what you're talking about DPS. But what's the harm in playing with the wrist being bent outwards? Subjecting yourself to carpal tunnel one day or just bad technique?
I'm concerned now because I see this "keyboard wrist" in my own left hand playing back-beats on the snare drum. To fix it, I raised and angled my snare drum toward me. I thought that would help.
Delta, correct technique will result in less strain in your arms and wrists. This means effortless execution, and that means you can play longer and harder. It also prolongs your playing life, and produces cardiovascular health effects that can extend youthful mobility into your 80s, just like Jim Chapin.

The way to correct "keyboard hands" is to play slowly, paying second to second attention to you wrist being flush with your forearm. You will feel the tendons in your outer arm stretch. Keep working on this and you will be flexible enough to do it without discomfort. Of course, all normal rules for stretching apply to this routine: don't overdo it at first. Have fun with it! DPS

[Alex Luce]

This I do not see as a concern. What I am talking about is the wrist being bent outwards, just like when using a computer keyboard. DPS

Hey DPS: I don't believe this is a problem, and I don't think Mr. Kaye's wrist is bent outwards, that is just the natural position it assumes when you are playing with correct technique. I think if you put the same camera angle on Jim Chapin, his wrist would look the same.

You probably know there are three ways the wrist can move; it can pivot, rotate (along with the forearm) or "cock" from side to side in a small range of motion. This "cocking" motion is most apparent when playing with French grip.

Notice when you rotate your wrist outward while using French grip, your wrist naturally cocks down. If you switch to German grip and raise your forearm while allowing the wrist to pivot down, you will notice also that the wrist cocks naturally outward, in the same way that Kaye's wrist does.

If you bent the wrist inward, that would be unnatural, but I think the outward/downward cocking motion is just a natural function of gravity pulling the wrist down.

Regards,

Alex

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Hey DPS: I don't believe this is a problem, and I don't think Mr. Kaye's wrist is bent outwards, that is just the natural position it assumes when you are playing with correct technique. If you don't beleive me, that is okay. But Dom spent a lot of time on the wrist and I know exactly what I am talking about. Ask Dom, or Jacob, for that matter. DPS

[Shane G]

This I do not see as a concern. What I am talking about is the wrist being bent outwards, just like when using a computer keyboard. DPS
Im not understanding what you mean.

When I use a computer keyboard my wrists are flat, with maybe a slight bend upwards, like the fingers pointing up.


Oh, and Im not arguing w/you, cause I completely understand its difficult to explain these things in text on a mssgboard.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Im not understanding what you mean.

When I use a computer keyboard my wrists are flat, with maybe a slight bend upwards, like the fingers pointing up.


Oh, and Im not arguing w/you, cause I completely understand its difficult to explain these things in text on a mssgboard.

I quote myself from a few posts ago: "What I am talking about is the wrist being bent outwards, just like when using a computer keyboard"

Make sense now? DPS

[Shane G]

I quote myself from a few posts ago: "What I am talking about is the wrist being bent outwards, just like when using a computer keyboard"

Make sense now? DPS
I watched Jakobs video again while looking for what you described, and I think youre right.
I just used a different term, thats all.

Still.....his wrist is too bent for my taste, no matter how you describe it.

[deltadrummer1]

Hey DPS: I don't believe this is a problem, and I don't think Mr. Kaye's wrist is bent outwards, that is just the natural position it assumes when you are playing with correct technique. I think if you put the same camera angle on Jim Chapin, his wrist would look the same.

You probably know there are three ways the wrist can move; it can pivot, rotate (along with the forearm) or "cock" from side to side in a small range of motion. This "cocking" motion is most apparent when playing with French grip.

Notice when you rotate your wrist outward while using French grip, your wrist naturally cocks down. If you switch to German grip and raise your forearm while allowing the wrist to pivot down, you will notice also that the wrist cocks naturally outward, in the same way that Kaye's wrist does.

If you bent the wrist inward, that would be unnatural, but I think the outward/downward cocking motion is just a natural function of gravity pulling the wrist down.

Regards,

Alex
.
Now I don't know what is correct thanks to you Alex! Haha no just joking. But seriously, since I've been to this thread, I'm concerned and actually worried about the keyboard wrist DPS mentioned. I'm a tidal wave of young blood and I'd like to prevent any wear and tear on my wrists that I can.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

.
Now I don't know what is correct thanks to you Alex! Haha no just joking. But seriously, since I've been to this thread, I'm concerned and actually worried about the keyboard wrist DPS mentioned. I'm a tidal wave of young blood and I'd like to prevent any wear and tear on my wrists that I can.

Don't worry, just work on it steadily, and you will feel great! DPS

[abe]

http://www.drummerworld.com/News/JoJoMayerDVD3.html

Was it keybordwrist on that 4 oclock position? Sorry, but I don't understand.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

http://www.drummerworld.com/News/JoJoMayerDVD3.html

Was it keybordwrist on that 4 oclock position? Sorry, but I don't understand.


Put your right hand flat on the table, palm down, in front of you, hand sticking straight out. This is a relaxed position.

Now, wiggle your hand, still palm down, to the right. This is a strained position.

Get it? DPS

[Alex Luce]

I know exactly what I am talking about.

It is interesting that you did not address or even consider my comments, but instead chose to entrench yourself in your position.

Whenever there is a good shot of Vinnie Colauita’s right hand/wrist in the video below, it clearly shows it cocking down. Hmm…it seems there are a lot of very good drummers that have your “keyboard wrist” problem…or maybe it isn’t a problem, but just the way the hand and wrist naturally function?

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/vinniecolaiutatweaked.html

[Alex Luce]

I'm concerned and actually worried about the keyboard wrist DPS mentioned.

Your focus shouldn’t be on the wrist, but on the entire motion of upper arm, forearm and hand. The motion of the Moeller stroke is a feeling, and it is almost as strong as a reflex. Once you have it, you will know it. Once you know it, there is no longer anything to worry about. It is nothing short of enlightenment.

Alex

P.S. Whatever you do, don’t practice any exercises to “straighten” your wrist out. Remember what Freddie Gruber says, “There are no straight lines in nature”.

[deltadrummer1]

Your focus shouldn’t be on the wrist, but on the entire motion of upper arm, forearm and hand. The motion of the Moeller stroke is a feeling, and it is almost as strong as a reflex. Once you have it, you will know it. Once you know it, there is no longer anything to worry about. It is nothing short of enlightenment.

Alex

P.S. Whatever you do, don’t practice any exercises to “straighten” your wrist out. Remember what Freddie Gruber says, “There are no straight lines in nature”.

Thanks, no worries..but I won't utilize the moeller for everything.. say with a linear groove played at a moderate or fast tempo that requires double strokes in which I would ghost.. Or could I?

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

It is interesting that you did not address or even consider my comments, but instead chose to entrench yourself in your position.

Whenever there is a good shot of Vinnie Colauita’s right hand/wrist in the video below, it clearly shows it cocking down. Hmm…it seems there are a lot of very good drummers that have your “keyboard wrist” problem…or maybe it isn’t a problem, but just the way the hand and wrist naturally function?

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/vinniecolaiutatweaked.html

Alex, I routinely spend time with one of the top clinicians and teachers in the world, and have for years. Drummers like Vinnie and Gadd cherish his advice and coaching. My comments here are meant to give back to the community some of the things I learned from him. Plenty of people in the forum find this information useful, including Jacob. Up to a very high level, I feel Dom's words can safely be taken as gospel. If you feel different, that is completely okay with me. DPS

[centralzeke]

Uh, just by watching the physics of Jacob's hand and stick movements, you can tell this is "correct" Moeller technique, whatever that means. Anyone who has Moeller technique down will say that it's pretty much flawless and "correct".

There is such thing as analyzing someone's technique too much.

[ironman]

Thirty odd years ago I was taught to warm up my wrist/arms by taking a pair of sticks, grasp them together in front of me like a curl bar, wrists at the center of the sticks and then invert my arms by curling the sticks - almost as if you were trying to snap them, until you wrists were almost back in the same position but your finger tips are pointing away from your body "inverted" so to speak. You (or at least I)
can't get to the final position and thats not the idea - you will find the resistance stops you (before tearing tendons/muscles) but you get a tad closer each time as you repeat it. After a couple of these stretches
(done carefully) your wrists/arms do seem to loosen up. I guess its kind of a "resistance" type exercize. Since I've been an off and on again drummer over the years I've never come close to doing these on a daily basis. I'm wondering now in the year 2007 if anyone else here has done these over the years and are they safe ? Some of what we learned and thought in the 60's seems to be found to be hazardous in the 00's ! Anybody ? Thanks...

[Alex Luce]

but I won't utilize the moeller for everything.. say with a linear groove played at a moderate or fast tempo that requires double strokes in which I would ghost.. Or could I?

DD1: I think you have touched on a very important question here. I believe there is only one real stroke, which is based on the Moeller movement. The stroke starts in the shoulder, travels down the bones and joints of the arm, and eventually propels the hand and wrist towards the drum. IMO every other drum stroke is a derivation of this movement. (Doubles, triples, etc.)

What I am trying to say is the entire arm is involved in each stroke, no matter how small. I've attached a video demonstration, in which I play very small soft strokes to very big loud strokes. To demonstrate the movement of the arm in this video, I keep my fingers firmly on the sticks when playing softly. However, if I did use my fingers, I would still be using my entire arm for each stroke.

Regards,

Alex

[Jeff Almeyda]

Your focus shouldn’t be on the wrist, but on the entire motion of upper arm, forearm and hand. The motion of the Moeller stroke is a feeling, and it is almost as strong as a reflex. Once you have it, you will know it. Once you know it, there is no longer anything to worry about. It is nothing short of enlightenment.

Alex

P.S. Whatever you do, don’t practice any exercises to “straighten” your wrist out. Remember what Freddie Gruber says, “There are no straight lines in nature”.

Please don't bring Freddie Gruber into this discussion. The man can't play. If Morello and Chapin have no use for him, then neither do I.

...and as a matter of fact, there ARE straight lines in nature. Light is straight (unless you're going to start talking abut the curvature of space-time itself), there are many crystalline structures that form straight lines, the pull of gravity towards the center of a mass is straight. I could go on...

What I have learned from studying with Morello, Famularo, Chapin, Verdi and Mangini is that every single one of them feels that their method is correct. Every single one of them performs their stokes in a different manner. I remember Chapin telling me how Dom "lunges" durimg his pull-outs. I also remember Joe Morello making fun of Moeller and his elbow accents, saying that he could do more with a straight arm throw ala Gladstone without "looking like he was trying to fly away". I remember Mangini hiding from Chapin a few years ago at NAMM in L.A. because he didn't want to hear Chapin tell him what he was doing wrong. This was after Mangini broke the record for WFD singles, btw.

I have seen Jacob's vids and his hands are terrific. If he has no pain, then there is no argument. All this talk of "correct" Moeller trikes me as odd. Moeller himself did not have the chops that Steve Smith or JoJo have today. Yet we revere him as some sort of unassailable authority on how a drum should be struck. Why? Because Jim Chapin hasn't shut up about him for the last 50 years.

The essence of Moeller is the whip, the concept that one can get more than one strike per large motion (whether this motion involves wrists or the entire arm is irrelevant). Once you understand that concept and how relaxation leads you there, you can figure it out on your own. Moeller wasn't some anatomy expert who wanted to discover the best method of hitting a drum. He just observed what the parade drummers were doing. Get it? PEOPLE WERE ALREADY DOING IT WHEN HE "INVENTED" IT. So why call it "Moeller" and not just a whipping motion?

So just do the same, observe, imitate and use what works for you. If you spend your time worrying about whether your wrist is turned 15.7 degrees off of the lateral axis you'll never actually play any music.

Edit: Alex, I just checked out your video and it was excellent as well. Your dynamic transitions are smooth as all. Good stuff.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

As far as my input is concerned, the discussion was over before it started: Jacob PM'ed me and told me he was already looking at the wrist thing. End of story.

The masters may disagree about the proper way to do things, but that just means we can not hope to follow all their collective wisdom at once. We should follow something they said, and use that as a springboard for our own ideas. Therefore, I think it makes sense to bring up and discuss their teachings. It is a bit jaded I think to dismiss the discussion with "the masters disagree anyway". Many people on this board have not have first hand access to any of them! Funny story about Mangini by the way. DPS

[deltadrummer1]

DD1: I think you have touched on a very important question here. I believe there is only one real stroke, which is based on the Moeller movement. The stroke starts in the shoulder, travels down the bones and joints of the arm, and eventually propels the hand and wrist towards the drum. IMO every other drum stroke is a derivation of this movement. (Doubles, triples, etc.)

What I am trying to say is the entire arm is involved in each stroke, no matter how small. I've attached a video demonstration, in which I play very small soft strokes to very big loud strokes. To demonstrate the movement of the arm in this video, I keep my fingers firmly on the sticks when playing softly. However, if I did use my fingers, I would still be using my entire arm for each stroke.

Regards,

Alex

Thank you, I understand now. This is such a great technique. Thanks

[Alex Luce]

Please don't bring Freddie Gruber into this discussion. The man can't play. If Morello and Chapin have no use for him, then neither do I.


Hi Jeff:

What an awesome post. :>) I agree with a lot of the stuff you said, but here are my comments:

1. So I'm assuming that Freddie Gruber could play at one time?? In looking at the way his arms and wrists move, it seems like he knows what he's doing.

2. I am confused about how Moeller's method of hitting the drum turned into this whip/rebound/multiple stroke thing. This is one of the reasons why I want to see Jim Chapin's video, because in The Moeller Book I can't find anything about a "whipping" motion. Moeller talks about "rotating" and "revolving" the stick towards the drum in a "fanlike" motion, but he is talking about single strokes when providing these instructions.

3. I really do believe there is a "correct" way to hit the drums. However, because each type of grip results in a different type of drum stroke, there is more than one way to hit a drum correctly. In addition, although anatomically humans are exactly alike, we have arms of varying sizes and lengths, our body masses and weight are different, and we all sit at and approach the drumset in slightly different ways. I believe these factors account for the fact that good technique can look different from player to player, even if fundamentally they are all using a "correct" drum stroke. Having said that, there will always be players who accomplish a lot using unorthodox technique. I think Neil Peart is a good example of this. Although I do think he kind of screwed himself up by trying to correct his technique (with the help of Freddie Gruber) and switching to traditional grip. He had something that worked, and worked great, so why not stick with it?

4. I really don't like calling a drum stroke "Moeller" or "the Moeller stroke" any more than you do. That's why I said the drum stroke is "based on the Moeller movement"... but there's more to it than that.

5. I think the fact that the motion of the drum stroke involves the entire arm (and not just the wrist) is very relevant. To me, that is the essence of it. It is much like you wrote in this post:http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=319680#post319680


Regards,

Alex