MOELLER METHOD

[Alex Luce]

Thirty odd years ago I was taught to warm up my wrist/arms by taking a pair of sticks, grasp them together in front of me like a curl bar, wrists at the center of the sticks and then invert my arms by curling the sticks.

Ha ha...yes I am 44, and I remember this exercise from my high school drum corps days! I think any athlete would tell you that stretching is not the warm up, it's something you do after you are warmed up. So it's probably OK to do this exercise, just make sure your muscles are warm and feeling loose.

Personally I don't do any stretching before I play, but I do take it easy for the first 10 minutes or so, especially if I'm playing on a practice pad.

Regards,

Alex

[That Guy]

Ok, I have seen multiple Moeller Technique vids. I have found JacobKaye's to be the best so far. He makes it seem very relaxing, smooth and fun. As someone who is trying to perfect this technique, would anyone agree that his explanation is the best? Dave Weckl's is a close second, but I find Jacob's to be a bit more friendly.

Sorry if this topic has been touched on already. I used the search button, but didn't come up with my exact question.

[Michael G]

Joe Morello no question.

[Illicom]

Derrick Pope described it pretty well in his video (which is available on this site) and a lot of people found that it worked for them.

[h3r3tic]

Derrick Pope described it pretty well in his video (which is available on this site) and a lot of people found that it worked for them.

On Derrick Pope's moeller video, he describes it magnificantly. I think that not only he can describe and teach it well, but he also can motivate you to grab your sticks on start practising right away ;) His videos have helped me TREMENDEOUSLY!

Thanks Derrick!

[SEVNT7]

Chapin. As close to the sorce as possible.

[IDDrummer]

Of the videos here on Drummerworld, I have to vote for Derrick Pope's.

[Paul Quin]

Derick's wins hands down for me! I have seen many people try to explain the Moeller (some more successfully than others), and others try tonteach it. I have never seen an explanation as clear and simple to follow as the one put forth by Derick.

Paul

[That Guy]

Awsome feedback. Thanks guys! I will check them all out, and report on them.

[JCM]

Derrick Pope. 20 characters

[centralzeke]

Chapin is the closest you can get to real Moeller. As in, old school Moeller.

[abe]

The best will come out on 15th July.


JOJO MAYER's new DVD

[Tutin]

I think both Chapin and Derrick do great explanations. I mean, what does it really matter when you can use both?

[centralzeke]

The best will come out on 15th July.


JOJO MAYER's new DVD

This is true. Mayer is one of the pros at effortless technique, funny it's supposed to be the most in-depth video on technique ever made, wasn't Steve Smith's DVD supposed to be that...

[That Guy]

Ok, I have reviewed alot of vids concerning this technique, (most of them very educational). What I have come to conclude *so far* is that alot of it is individual taste on the method. As long as the player has complete control of the stick (before & after the bounce) its up to them how they pursue it.

I am no expert on the technique, but this is just a observation.

[TheSteve]

From the small clip of Jojo's dvd it seems like it will help a lot mainly for the breakdown and slow motion.

[ZildjianMan1023]

hey guys.. recently ive heard about the moler technique.. i know how to do it i just want to know the benefits of this technique

[jayp]

Eeek double post sorry.

check out JoJo mayers page for some videos
http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/JOJO_Mayer.html

Also youtube.com has tons of video information on the moeller

And dont forget Derek Popes moeller video!
www.derrickpope.net/moellertechnique.wmv

[That Guy]

Seriously ZildjianMan! It's a technique that ALL drummers need to MASTER in my opinon. It can't hurt your drumming. It will only take it to another level.

[wy yung]

The major benefits as far as my experience goes is: more elasticity in one's stroke, power, speed and endurance.

I advise practicing slowly to begin. Try to aim for accuracy with your metronome. And if you can, get a copy of Jim Chapin's video. He explained it very very well.

Or better still. Find a good teacher.

[k3ng]

Speed, power, control and endurance.

That's what you get.

[jazzin']

Benefits: It makes ya goes faster.

I think there is a misinterpretation that the Moeller stroke is only for making you go faster. It might help you go faster but it is really not for this at all. It is a method of playing in a natural motion to get strong accents and multiple bounces out of a single motion while using less force. It is easier to get faster just using your fingers.

[cactusjack]

OK I said it. and I mean it.
Moeller is a bunch of old crap for marching drummners.

If it makes you so fast, then why after all his years of practicing it
can't Dave Weckl play single strokes as fast and strong as Dennis Chambers? Just looking at Dave and Dennis, I would bet Dave can run
further and faster than Dennis, so why can't he move his hands as fast?
The reason is simple, Dave is fighting gravity and Dennis is using it.
Dennis Chambers in response to a question at a clinic about how he developed his speed, said that he practiced single strokes on a pillow, after he was told to do that by Buddy Rich as a youngster.
Follow the Natural Rebound ??? Not on a pillow!

The stick is not a bouncing ball it is a hammer.
Learn to lift the stick with your wrist muscles, if you want more speed.
On planet earth things will only come down as fast as they move up.
That means speed is first, determined by your muscles lifting ability.
Holding the sticks in the air, and playing what are called full strokes
will build no muscles you don't already have.

Watch the Buddy Rich videos , The Jazz Legend, in one of the drum solos Buddy builds a single stroke roll from slow to the speed of light.
You will see no Moeller Method, no full strokes.
The stick is 1 inch from the drum head and is lifted up to
the height he wants for the volume he's playing at and then he lets the stick come back down to the drum head.
HE DOES NOT HOLD THE STICK UP IN THE AIR AND THROW IT DOWN. HE LIFTS IT UP FIRST. THEN IT COMES DOWN
This is the direct opposite of what all the Moeller advocates are claiming you should practice. Full Strokes and Half strokes were invented so that the drumline would have their sticks moving in synchronicity, it had nothing to do with playing the drumset or performing a drum solo.
You are better off watching the greats play and making your own decisions based on what you see and hear than watching all the drum instruction videos telling you that Moeller is some secret technique that will give you incredible chops.
Moeller ignores the natural laws of motion and anatomy, so how can it lead to superior technique?

[centralzeke]

There is so many things wrong with the above post I'm not even going to try. Will someone else?

[DottedQuarters]

In the videos I've seen of Weckl using the Moeller, he relies too much on bounce. Tony Royster Jr. however says he practices it this technique on pillows, just as Chambers has said he practices singles...(as an aside, why would anyone want to play faster than Weckl anyway?)

I developed this technique in my right hand by accident...it naturally came to me while learning tripolet ride patterns. It's strength is in the "whipping" motion. While the third stroke is being played, the rest of my wrist/arm are going into position for the next down stroke. Why only use gravity in your stroke when you can use physics?

I've never heard of the Moeller having anything to do with half and full strokes...

Also, Jazzin', Wy Yung and K3ng are dead on. The technique is for the SOUND!

[jonescrusher]

There is so many things wrong with the above post I'm not even going to try. Will someone else?


Lol, I wonder to myself is there any point to explaining (my interpretation of ) the moeller system. It seems to be the most disagreed upon topic of discussion after politics and religion.

As has been said it is not about speed, it's about improved mobility and tone on the set. It describes a set of motions that covers all patterns of accented and unaccented notes. With practice these motions become incorporated and second nature. The four types of strokes used:

Full stroke - stick starts and finishes in high position
Up stroke - stick starts in low position, finishes in high position
Down stroke - stick starts in high position, finishes in low position
Tap stroke - stick starts and finishes in low position

Sometimes a combination of these will result in the fabled 'whipping motion'. The 'whipping motion' is not the sum total of Moeller, it is sometimes the result of.....


Cactusjack's post is confusing. You both condone and condemn the Moeller system, hmmm.....

[DottedQuarters]

I wasn't condemning it, but was trying to make the point that it can be more effective if you rely on the wrist technique to execute the motions you described and not just the natural rebound of the stick. Good post jonescrusher. Helped clarify the technique in my own mind.

[jonescrusher]

Yes, executing the moeller strokes is mostly about wrists, finger control is not important in terms of playing the stroke, more just in controlling the stick position in the hand.

[cactusjack]

Let me discuss your explanation

Full stroke - stick starts and finishes in high position

A complete waste of time to practice, and a completely unnatural motion for the body. Do you ever hold your legs in the air before taking a step to walk or run. All efficient motion in the body begins from a state of rest and returns to one. Starting and stopping the stick at the top of it's arc is not a state of rest for your arms. It only induces tension in the arms and upper body, why practice a motion that creates tension? Practicing fighting gravity is a waste of time. As I understand it, this is an old hold over from marching drumming of the late 1800's and early 1900's. What in the heck does it have to do with groovin and playing time???

Up stroke - stick starts in low position, finishes in high position

This starts ok but again why practice stopping the stick at the top of it's natural arc? Why not allow gravity to bring you down? why tense your muscles to stop gravity's pull? What is gained by stopping up?

Down stroke - stick starts in high position, finishes in low position

In what manner? are you just relaxing the tension from the previous motion and finally allowing what is natural, or are you talking about
actually hitting the drum with some force, and then stopping low?
What is this motion for? To finish low, simply start low, lift and return.


Tap stroke - stick starts and finishes in low position

This is getting close, in words, but when I see it demonstrated
by Moeller advocates it's usually to play a soft note.

It's actually simpler to play a single stroke roll than all
this stuff you think you need to do. There are laws of motion and they apply to your anatomy, if you ignore them then you will move inefficiently
and not reach your body's maximum ability at a given motion.
Everything on earth must move up to come down. Ignoring this is a waste of time to practice as it is simply inefficient motion.(Full stroke ,Up stroke,Down stroke) all ignore this simple law of motion,

Hold the stick any way you like, but to play single strokes, you must lift
the stick up with your wrist muscles and then relax and guide the stick down to where you want to strike. Gravity will always pull you down as fast as you can lift up, so it would seem that practicing on a pillow would force one to do just that to play single strokes. Moving up and then down
is the way all muscles in your body move your skeleton around.
Lifting up and then coming down is what I would call turning
your wrist to play a single stroke.
It's what anyone with any speed is doing to play single strokes
The other motions are useless to practice as they only induce muscular tension and a bad habit of stopping the stick at the top of it's arc.
As far as I can tell all that is learned by the body by practicing the other motions is the subtle upper body tension that prevents you from
ever playing at your body's true potential. It's as useless as holding your thighs in the air after each step and expecting it to improve your stride.

Please enlighten me as to what rudiment or musical event you use these unnatural motions for and why? Maybe I'm missing something.....

[Wavelength]

Moeller describes a set of motions that covers all patterns of accented and unaccented notes. With practice these motions become incorporated and second nature. The four types of strokes used:

Full stroke - stick starts and finishes in high position
Up stroke - stick starts in low position, finishes in high position
Down stroke - stick starts in high position, finishes in low position
Tap stroke - stick starts and finishes in low position

These four basic strokes and usage of rebound aren't exclusive to Moeller, since they can be executed using just fingers or just wrists (Gladstone technique). It's the whipping up-stroke or pull-out motion that distinguishes the Moeller technique from other techniques.

[Wavelength]

Full stroke - stick starts and finishes in high position

A complete waste of time to practice, and a completely unnatural motion for the body. Do you ever hold your legs in the air before taking a step to walk or run. All efficient motion in the body begins from a state of rest and returns to one.

Do you run like this:

1) Lie flat on the ground, resting.
2) Stand up.
3) Take a leap forward and land face-first on the ground, so you can lie and rest naturally and comfortably.
4) Repeat 2 and 3.

Starting and stopping the stick at the top of it's arc is not a state of rest for your arms. It only induces tension in the arms and upper body, why practice a motion that creates tension? Practicing fighting gravity is a waste of time.

Do you happen to possess the power to lift your sticks up again and again without needing to fight gravity every single time you do it?

Up stroke - stick starts in low position, finishes in high position

This starts ok but again why practice stopping the stick at the top of it's natural arc? Why not allow gravity to bring you down? why tense your muscles to stop gravity's pull? What is gained by stopping up?

The up stroke is used when you play a ghost note followed by an accent. I wonder how you manage to perform that motion without lifting your sticks. Probably like so:

1) Tap the drum from the low position.
2) Think "I'm about to play an accent!"
3) Lift the stick.
4) Remember, that one shouldn't keep his sticks high, and let gravity do its job.
5) ...hold on. Where was I again?

Down stroke

Well, this stuff must be mind-boggling since you haven't the slightest idea how rebound works.

Tap stroke - stick starts and finishes in low position

This is getting close, in words, but when I see it demonstrated
by Moeller advocates it's usually to play a soft note.

Are you one of those guys who have a good grasp on dynamic playing, i.e. can play VERY LOUD and LOUDER? Or it could be that you play your ghost notes by starting low, lifting the stick and then move the stick veeeery sloooowlyy and gently towards the drum. That's certainly a great way to conserve energy and lessen tension.

Gravity will always pull you down as fast as you can lift up.

That's BS. Earth's gravity gives objects in free fall an acceleration speed of 9,81 m/s^2. Anyone can move the sticks at a far quicker speed.

The other motions are useless to practice as they only induce muscular tension and a bad habit of stopping the stick at the top of it's arc.

And stopping the stick's natural rebound isn't a bad habit creating muscular tension, hmm?

--------

I can't help feeling that you've understood the whole concept horribly wrong. Let's just say that the four strokes facilitate the maximum use of rebound and minimum use of effort in ALL PLAYING.

[abe]

Wavelength,
You're so wrong best way how to save energy is let both hands rest on drum head while sluging in nice chair-bed ;) Have you ever dribbled a pillow?

[stasz]

All the stuff Wavelength said that I don't want to repost.


...Dang.

But well-said.

The upstroke explanation was my favorite one.

YEM

[jazzin']

The stick is not a bouncing ball it is a hammer.
Learn to lift the stick with your wrist muscles, if you want more speed.
On planet earth things will only come down as fast as they move up.
That means speed is first, determined by your muscles lifting ability.
Holding the sticks in the air, and playing what are called full strokes
will build no muscles you don't already have.



I don't know whether you're trying to get a response through pointless controversy or not but...

Talking of your hammer analogy...If you take a hammer and hit the ground, it will stop. Then you can lift it back up. If you take a hammer and hit a rebounding surface, such as a trampoline, it will fly back up to you with the force you generated with your downstroke. You don't need to lift it back up and it will come up a lot faster.
Same thing with sticks and rebound. Now to clear something up, I'm not talking about any Moeller stroke here. I don't think Moeller should be advocated as a speed technique because it's primary goal has nothing to do with speed really. As I said in my previous post it is about generating more force and strokes (accents/non accents) in a single natural motion with little energy.

I think you actually contradicted yourself with the above statement. You should go over what you write and think about it. Anyway, on to what you said: In your statement you said things will only go down as fast as they move up. Ok. Sure. So if you throw your stick down and let it go and rebound by itself it will fly back up at you very, very quickly. If you throw it down and pull it back up with your wrist it is stopping it's natural inertia and it is noticeably slower. If you can learn to harness natural rebound, which pillow practice will not help you with, I believe you can go a lot faster, also with a lot less effort and strain rather than muscling through it.

It's quite simple actually. I just don't think you understand what these various techniques you're talking about are for. You say Buddy uses no Moeller in his lightning fast single stroke roll built up from one inch from the head. Well of course he doesn't, because you don't use Moeller stroke for that purpose at all, in any way shape or form. You just use a normal single stroke with fingers and/or wrists. Different techniques for different purposes.
Saying Moeller ignores the natural laws of motion shows once again that you have no understanding of it whatsoever. It is about using those exact laws of motion for increased ease of playing. As are the four strokes which you also seem to have no grasp of. Wavelength's post explains those well (great post man). Seriously, I would suggest getting a well reputed technique teacher to go over the fundamentals with you. It will do wonders.

[Wavelength]

Have you ever dribbled a pillow?

I stopped when I realised it wouldn't fit through a basketball hoop.

[Drums558]

.

It's quite simple actually. I just don't think you understand what these various techniques you're talking about are for. You say Buddy uses no Moeller in his lightning fast single stroke roll built up from one inch from the head. Well of course he doesn't, because you don't use Moeller stroke for that purpose at all, in any way shape or form. You just use a normal single stroke with fingers and/or wrists. Different techniques for different purposes.


This is what was going through my mind as I read CactusJacks post.
Full strokes and understanding the motion that creates a good rebound has been a very important aspect of improving my stick control.
"Different techniques for different purposes". Well said jazzin.

Mike

[jonescrusher]

Please enlighten me as to what rudiment or musical event you use these unnatural motions for and why? Maybe I'm missing something.....



As I said, I think we're agreeing on some things, and not on others. I've scanned in a couple of basic examples on how the fours strokes would be applied to some simple rudiments,

D = downstroke
F = fullstroke
U = upstroke
T = tapstroke

The point is, these four strokes cover any sticking, with the result being a more fluid and dynamically stable playing ability.

[jonescrusher]

These four basic strokes and usage of rebound aren't exclusive to Moeller, since they can be executed using just fingers or just wrists (Gladstone technique). It's the whipping up-stroke or pull-out motion that distinguishes the Moeller technique from other techniques.


Yes, as is usual with the system it comes down to the specifics in the way you were taught it. I'm happy with the way I was taught it and it made sense quickly. As long as the end result is the same then it's all good.
Still, I stand by the whipping motion being but one of the results of correctly employed Moeller motions. I don't think it defines the system.

[abe]

I stopped when I realised it wouldn't fit through a basketball hoop.

Man, I love your humor :D

Oh I can't stop laughing

[SEVNT7]

Thanks Wavelength........

[cactusjack]

You know less than nothing. Are you talking out your ass just to get a response? You should also take a physics class. So what if Buddy & Dennis practiced on pillows. That doesn't teach you to bounce the stick. It helps you react faster. Besides, comparing outright speed is rediculous. Some people are just faster. Were you the fastest runner in your highschool? Moeller is a great technique to have under your belt. When you get a clue, You'll realize that every technique you can learn can only add to your playing................Later....T

I wasn't talking about bouncing a stick, don't you read?
I was talking about single strokes. How many times must
I state SINGLE STROKES before you see it?

I quote: "So what if Buddy & Dennis practiced on pillows"
If a master drummer like Buddy or Dennis tells you what he does to improve his single strokes YOU IGNORE HIM ???
Hmmm .... very wise decision on your part.

"When you get a clue, You'll realize that every technique you can learn can only add to your playing"

All I can say is maybe read what I said again, and try to understand that
practicing motions that create tension are a useless waste of time.
If you believe that holding the stick up in the air after playing a note is a good thing to practice then more power to you , but it tells me you really don't understand how the laws of motion apply to drums or your own body.
You are ignoring the tension created by this way of playing and unaware of how it affects what your trying to do.
As I asked before, what do you play in a musical situation that
requires you to hold the sticks and your arms up in the air after
playing a note??????

You seem to be repeating what you've been told and not using
your brains to reason out what you see and hear when a master plays.
Moeller has been around for a long time, if it is such a great thing,
where are all the virtuosos it should have produced by now.
There certainly have been enough generations of drummers that
have learned it. Where are the results??
Every year athletes push their records higher, yet there are only a handful of drummers that play with virtuosity.
WHY???
Could it be that everyone is making a simple mistake that prevents them from doing what Buddy and Dennis are doing?
I repeat, ON EARTH THINGS MOVE UP THEN DOWN.
using the opposite motion creates tension which inhibits your bodys
ability to work at maximum efficiency. Once you pattern this inefficiency into you playing it is very hard to undo.

Maybe you think that Buddy and Dennis are freaks of nature and that is
why they are faster than you?
They are only flesh and blood, and if you better understood what they were doing physically you might have a chance of matching it.
But as long as you cling to ancient misguided notions invented for
marching drumming you do not have a hope.

[DannyG]

On Aaron spears's personal profile, there's a pic of him sitting behind a set of practice pad's. . . . is that just a pic or does anyone know the link to the video it belongs to?

Cheers!
Dan

[centralzeke]

Wrong, Moeller technique reduces tension, not creates it. Anyone who denies this doesn't have a grasp of that concept and hasn't figured it out drumwise.

And the experts would say Buddy Rich did use a form of Moeller, though maybe he didn't practice it, it's a natural motion and good drummers come across it without trying. If you look at his fast accents, you'll see a whipping motion with his wrist.

Catching rebound and Moeller technique works with gravity and physics. Pillow practicing creates muscular tension, is there something you don't understand. The full stroke, half strokes, and low strokes where you start at a certain height and end at a certain height are so you play more relaxed. You are doing them wrong if you experience problems with "tension", so I really don't know where you're coming from relating these concepts to tension. It just doesn't make sense. Does any drum feel like a pillow? No. If you want to sound like Dennis Chambers, go ahead, give it a shot. I personally don't have an obsession with Dennis Chambers, I like the chopsy virtuosos like Mayer and Steve Smith a lot more.

There are plenty of drummers with amazing chops, not a handful. Are you kidding?!

You present way too much information that contradicts the truth, it makes it really hard to actually respond to your posts. Why do you feel so strongly about this? No one is acting like Moeller is a secret technique, it's really natural. It's really not an abstract concept. You go to a certain speed with accenting, and the motion changes to be more efficient. Is there something you don't understand?

This is a pretty pointless argument.

[ajgdrums7814]

I wasn't talking about bouncing a stick, don't you read?
I was talking about single strokes. How many times must
I state SINGLE STROKES before you see it?

I quote: "So what if Buddy & Dennis practiced on pillows"
If a master drummer like Buddy or Dennis tells you what he does to improve his single strokes YOU IGNORE HIM ???
Hmmm .... very wise decision on your part.

"When you get a clue, You'll realize that every technique you can learn can only add to your playing"

All I can say is maybe read what I said again, and try to understand that
practicing motions that create tension are a useless waste of time.
If you believe that holding the stick up in the air after playing a note is a good thing to practice then more power to you , but it tells me you really don't understand how the laws of motion apply to drums or your own body.
You are ignoring the tension created by this way of playing and unaware of how it affects what your trying to do.
As I asked before, what do you play in a musical situation that
requires you to hold the sticks and your arms up in the air after
playing a note??????

You seem to be repeating what you've been told and not using
your brains to reason out what you see and hear when a master plays.
Moeller has been around for a long time, if it is such a great thing,
where are all the virtuosos it should have produced by now.
There certainly have been enough generations of drummers that
have learned it. Where are the results??
Every year athletes push their records higher, yet there are only a handful of drummers that play with virtuosity.
WHY???
Could it be that everyone is making a simple mistake that prevents them from doing what Buddy and Dennis are doing?
I repeat, ON EARTH THINGS MOVE UP THEN DOWN.
using the opposite motion creates tension which inhibits your bodys
ability to work at maximum efficiency. Once you pattern this inefficiency into you playing it is very hard to undo.

Maybe you think that Buddy and Dennis are freaks of nature and that is
why they are faster than you?
They are only flesh and blood, and if you better understood what they were doing physically you might have a chance of matching it.
But as long as you cling to ancient misguided notions invented for
marching drumming you do not have a hope.

Watch JoJo Mayer's new DVD and tell me that these methods don't yield fantastic results.

And if you have all the secrets to the world of drumming, why don't you post a video to displaying your incredible Buddy/Dennis-trained technique? I assume your just posting this garbage to get a rise out of people because quite frankly, none of it makes any sense.

If there is a way to get the stick back into your hand without expelling any of your own energy, how in the hell does that create MORE tension? Ridiculous.

[cactusjack]

You know less than nothing. Are you talking out your ass just to get a response? You should also take a physics class. So what if Buddy & Dennis practiced on pillows. That doesn't teach you to bounce the stick. It helps you react faster. Besides, comparing outright speed is rediculous. Some people are just faster. Were you the fastest runner in your highschool? Moeller is a great technique to have under your belt. When you get a clue, You'll realize that every technique you can learn can only add to your playing................Later....T

I wasn't talking about bouncing a stick, don't you read?
I was talking about single strokes. How many times must
I state SINGLE STROKES before you see it?

I quote: "So what if Buddy & Dennis practiced on pillows"
If a master drummer like Buddy or Dennis tells you what he does to improve his single strokes YOU IGNORE HIM ???
Hmmm .... very wise decision on your part.

"When you get a clue, You'll realize that every technique you can learn can only add to your playing"

All I can say is maybe read what I said again, and try to understand that
practicing motions that create tension are a useless waste of time.
If you believe that holding the stick up in the air after playing a note is a good thing to practice then more power to you , but it tells me you really don't understand how the laws of motion apply to drums or your own body.
You are ignoring the tension created by this way of playing and unaware of how it affects what your trying to do.
As I asked before, what do you play in a musical situation that
requires you to hold the sticks and your arms up in the air after
playing a note??????

You seem to be repeating what you've been told and not using
your brains to reason out what you see and hear when a master plays.
Moeller has been around for a long time, if it is such a great thing,
where are all the virtuosos it should have produced by now.
There certainly have been enough generations of drummers that
have learned it. Where are the results??
Every year athletes push their records higher, yet there are only a handful of drummers that play with virtuosity.
WHY???
Could it be that everyone is making a simple mistake that prevents them from doing what Buddy and Dennis are doing?
I repeat, ON EARTH THINGS MOVE UP THEN DOWN.
Using the opposite motion creates tension which inhibits your bodys
ability to work at maximum efficiency. Once you pattern this inefficiency into you playing it is very hard to undo.

Maybe you think that Buddy and Dennis are freaks of nature
and that is why they are faster than most everyone else?
They are only flesh and blood like you, and if you better understood what they were doing physically you might have a chance of matching it.
But as long as you cling to ancient misguided notions invented for
marching drumming, you do not have a hope.

[Wavelength]

I just noticed a reoccurring phrase in cj's posts -- "holding the sticks up" -- and can only surmise that this whole argument is based on a misconception.

The point of the four basic strokes isn't to put the sticks somewhere and keep them there. Rather, the strokes are used to always pre-empt the next stroke. If you want to play an accent, the previous stroke should end in the up-position. If you want to play a ghost note, the previous stroke should end in the down-position. Using this principle makes the strokes flow more easily and really, really lessens tension and energy expenditure. Again, the Moeller motion doesn't have any use if you are playing a single stroke roll, but for dynamic passages it's very effective.

[Wavelength]

Moeller has been around for a long time, if it is such a great thing, where are all the virtuosos it should have produced by now.

Well, the majority of modern drumming virtuosi (Dave Weckl and Steve Smith to name a couple) apply the Moeller motion in one way or another. Single stroke roll speed isn't a meter of virtuosity.

[cactusjack]

I just noticed a reoccurring phrase in cj's posts -- "holding the sticks up" -- and can only surmise that this whole argument is based on a misconception.

The point of the four basic strokes isn't to put the sticks somewhere and keep them there. Rather, the strokes are used to always pre-empt the next stroke. If you want to play an accent, the previous stroke should end in the up-position. If you want to play a ghost note, the previous stroke should end in the down-position. Using this principle makes the strokes flow more easily and really, really lessens tension and energy expenditure. Again, the Moeller motion doesn't have any use if you are playing a single stroke roll, but for dynamic passages it's very effective.
Hi Wavelength,
I want to examine something you said
"If you want to play an accent, the previous stroke should end in the up-position."
I've been asking for a musical example of the application of the motion
and that was your answer, no?
Then can we agree that when you play a backbeat with a band is that not an accented note? If you agree, do you hold your arm and stick in the air between backbeats? When you walk or run do you hold your leg up in the air between motions? I don't understand how you can claim that
this makes things flow more easily, it is fighting gravity, and you do not
realize it because you are use to the tension. from practicing moeller.

Please read what Buddy Rich had to say about playing on a pillow
at this url
http://www.bopworks.net/ads/buddyRichColumn.jpg

READ CAREFULLY. He states clearly that it should be done very slowly
for a long time, that implies that he isn't advocating doing it at high speeds,
he's trying to teach you how to walk, if you figure that out, all you need do
is tell yourself to go faster. When you learn to walk with your feet as an infant, you do not practice running, once their is a little strength to stand and balance, you figure out how to walk , and running isn't much of an issue Buddy is trying to get you to FEEL how to move, the rest is learning music.

Did you ever see Buddy Rich anywhere in performance and hear what he sounded like, with your own ears? Have you really heard a virtuoso play the snare? As as much as I like and respect Dave Weckl and Steve Smith's music making I don't consider them to be virtuoso snare drummers. (Weckl and Smith fans don't meltdown, please)

Anyway I'm curious what you have to say about what Buddy states,
and do you feel Buddy is someone maybe worth listening to?
I think his singles and rebounds are pretty good, but it seems a lot of people on threads here at drummer world feel that pillow practice makes them stiff.
Well they didn't READ CAREFULLY or maybe they didn't read at all.
He says not to go fast and to stop at the slightest tension. WHY?
Because if you feel tension your doing it WRONG and he is telling you so
by asking you to stop , relax and start over. Until you FEEL it you won't GET IT. Buddy knows that and is trying to help you as best he can with words.
Buddy only has words to describe a physical sensation the answer
to his blazing technique is in the words but so few seem to understand
what the words mean, will you be able to understand or will your preconceptions from Moeller block your understanding?
It's all right there quite clear, if you understand the meaning of the words.
No lies, no fluff, no BS right from a virtuoso's mind and wisdom,
exactly how to practice for technique.
No, mention of Full stroke , Up stroke, Down stroke, or Tap stroke,
these ideas predated Buddy, he knew of them, If he felt these promoted good technique, don't you think he would say so?

[centralzeke]

I think it's safe to say Henry Adler wrote that article, just like Adler wrote the majority if not ALL of Buddy Rich's rudiment book, just like he wrote several other drummers books. So you really can't use that as an example.

Yes, Buddy Rich was a virtuoso, virtuosos are pretty much freaks of nature. Have you ever seen a 5 year old pianist play an amazing classical passage? It's insane. You're right, we are all made of the same chemicals, so we have the potential to get to that level (at least chopswise!!!!). If pillow practice works for you, great. But have you seen John Blackwell, who practiced on pillows from the advice he got from Dennis Chambers? I guess he grooves all right, but I don't want to hold my sticks like that, he looks like he's playing with hammers and all tensed up. Important note: drumsticks ARE NOT like hammers..

Buddy Rich had been playing drums since he was 3. He had natural talent and experience. He didn't sound like that simply by practicing technique on pillows.

It seems like there's something you're not understanding when it comes to upstrokes and downstrokes, I think you might be overanalyzing or exaggerating these ideas.

[ajgdrums7814]

You ask where all the drumming virtuosos the Moeller technique is producing are...

...yet you keep referring back to the same two drummers (Rich and Chambers) to support your theory that practicing on a pillow is the only way to practice.

[Wavelength]

13567

Two snare drum passages; the first is single-height, forte all the way, and the second is a two-height passage played with alternating hands. I marked the strokes one should use when playing the second example: Down strokes, Taps and Up strokes. If you don't pre-empt the accents and ghosts using the strokes themselves, you'll have to do the pre-emptive motions between the strokes, which translates to wasted effort. As for the first passage, why should you stop your sticks after every stroke, when the sticks want to rebound back up? It makes no sense.

Of course no-one keeps his sticks up all the time when playing two-and-four. The pre-emptive motions are mostly used when playing dense(ish) two-height passages on a snare or on the kit.

[cactusjack]

You ask where all the drumming virtuosos the Moeller technique is producing are...

...yet you keep referring back to the same two drummers (Rich and Chambers) to support your theory that practicing on a pillow is the only way to practice.

You don't seem to have good reading comprehension.
I never said that practicing on a pillow is the only way to practice,
and I never said it was my theory. Please quote me where I did.
You are misreading what I said and your response doesn't seem
to be to what I've actually written.

I use Buddy as an example because he is a virtuoso and an example to us all,
Dennis on the other hand has many times stated that he was told at a young age by Buddy to practice on a pillow. that's why I bring him up. They both have fast single strokes
and strong wrists and playing single strokes is all I've talked about so far.
I'm still waiting for that musical example of how and why to use a full stroke
and it's supposed advantage. Did you read my question about playing a backbeat?
I'm still waiting for the technique discussion to begin, why not answer my questions?
Is this not a forum for discussing technique??

[cactusjack]

13567

Two snare drum passages; the first is single-height, forte all the way, and the second is a two-height passage played with alternating hands. I marked the strokes one should use when playing the second example: Down strokes, Taps and Up strokes. If you don't pre-empt the accents and ghosts using the strokes themselves, you'll have to do the pre-emptive motions between the strokes, which translates to wasted effort. As for the first passage, why should you stop your sticks after every stroke, when the sticks want to rebound back up? It makes no sense.

Of course no-one keeps his sticks up all the time when playing two-and-four. The pre-emptive motions are mostly used when playing dense(ish) two-height passages on a snare or on the kit.

Hi Wavelength,
Thanks for the musical example. I'm at work and have to log out, but I will respond later this evening, when I have more time to explain my ideas on this musical passage.

[jonescrusher]

I'm still waiting for that musical example of how and why to use a full stroke
and it's supposed advantage. Did you read my question about playing a backbeat?
I'm still waiting for the technique discussion to begin, why not answer my questions?
Is this not a forum for discussing technique??


If you take the time to understand the system of strokes, you'll see that the full stroke is a perfectly valid type of stroke, for example where you are required to play to accented notes successively with one hand - the full stroke returns the stick to full height after sounding the first accent, meaning that it is in position to sound the second accented note. An obvious example, but it's not practical to spell out all the musical examples that such a need may occur. I took the time to scan in an example below....

[DannyG]

ANYONE???????????????????

[stasz]

Oh god why am I getting into this...

cactusjack, nonargumentatively, could you please tell me in your honest opinion, how do you play an accented note? If I were to bring a practice pad in front of you and I said play 2 notes, one nonaccented, and one accented, what motion(s) would you perform to play the second, accented stroke?

[cactusjack]

Watch JoJo Mayer's new DVD and tell me that these methods don't yield fantastic results.

And if you have all the secrets to the world of drumming, why don't you post a video to displaying your incredible Buddy/Dennis-trained technique? I assume your just posting this garbage to get a rise out of people because quite frankly, none of it makes any sense.


If there is a way to get the stick back into your hand without expelling any of your own energy, how in the hell does that create MORE tension? Ridiculous.

Never seen the Mayer video so I have no comment on it.

Anatomy and the laws of motion are not secrets .
I'm not trying to get a rise from anyone I'm trying to discuss technique but it seems everyone is wearing their ego on their sleeve and if i say anything that contradicts what they believe is correct, I get insults instead of intelligent discourse.


Your last statement tells me you don't really understand how to hold a stick. Please read the Buddy Rich article, look at the bottom of the first column. Why is the stick out of your hand?
Your supposed to be holding it firmly.
Your statement means your are using the drumhead's tension to move the stick up instead of your muscles, so you are not really in control of the stick
your waiting for it to catch back up with your hand. So your changing your grip on the stick as your are moving it. Buddy clearly states to keep a firm grip, Maybe you should consider the meaning of his words.

[cactusjack]

Oh god why am I getting into this...

cactusjack, nonargumentatively, could you please tell me in your honest opinion, how do you play an accented note? If I were to bring a practice pad in front of you and I said play 2 notes, one nonaccented, and one accented, what motion(s) would you perform to play the second, accented stroke?


Depending on tempo and volume for the unaccented note I would lift the stick up by turning the wrist and then turn again on the way down. Most of the energy is expended on the way up. But if tempos are fast or the volume is high I may add a little energy on the way down, For the accent I would
lift my wrist slightly and then turn it as it falls back, creating a slight whipping motion , this add a little more mass to the stick and creates the accent.
I would compare it to walking (unaccented) and then jumping (accent)
so as to come down with more force.

[cactusjack]

13567

Two snare drum passages; the first is single-height, forte all the way, and the second is a two-height passage played with alternating hands. I marked the strokes one should use when playing the second example: Down strokes, Taps and Up strokes. If you don't pre-empt the accents and ghosts using the strokes themselves, you'll have to do the pre-emptive motions between the strokes, which translates to wasted effort. As for the first passage, why should you stop your sticks after every stroke, when the sticks want to rebound back up? It makes no sense.

Of course no-one keeps his sticks up all the time when playing two-and-four. The pre-emptive motions are mostly used when playing dense(ish) two-height passages on a snare or on the kit.

Hmmm.... where to start?
you said : As for the first passage, why should you stop your sticks after every stroke, when the sticks want to rebound back up? It makes no sense.

The equal and opposite law of motion is in effect here.
The sticks want to rebound up when you play because your
first motion is down. If you moved up first then you would come
down for the note and the stick would not want to rebound away.
That's why what I said makes no sense to you because you
are doing the exact opposite of me.
Since that is the way you move, you may find it very difficult
to reverse what you have taught yourself. I play the drum the
same way I walk and run. Up then down. This is a fundamental law
of motion that Moeller seems to be ignoring.

then you said; Of course no-one keeps his sticks up all the time when playing two-and-four. The pre-emptive motions are mostly used when playing dense(ish) two-height passages on a snare or on the kit

why would i want to change my motions when playing an accent
in a fast passage as opposed to a backbeat. An Accent is an Accent at any tempo, So I use the same motion for both.

[cactusjack]

Lol, I wonder to myself is there any point to explaining (my interpretation of ) the moeller system. It seems to be the most disagreed upon topic of discussion after politics and religion.

As has been said it is not about speed, it's about improved mobility and tone on the set. It describes a set of motions that covers all patterns of accented and unaccented notes. With practice these motions become incorporated and second nature. The four types of strokes used:

Full stroke - stick starts and finishes in high position
Up stroke - stick starts in low position, finishes in high position
Down stroke - stick starts in high position, finishes in low position
Tap stroke - stick starts and finishes in low position

Sometimes a combination of these will result in the fabled 'whipping motion'. The 'whipping motion' is not the sum total of Moeller, it is sometimes the result of.....


Cactusjack's post is confusing. You both condone and condemn the Moeller system, hmmm.....

Yes I do condone and condemn the Moeller system as it
is only partly in accordance with the natural laws of motion
and anatomy. I only disagree with the parts that
are ignoring important physical facts, like everything on
earth must move up first , to come down.
That is why I think the full stroke is wasted energy to practice.

[cactusjack]

Yes Henry Adler did write the rudiment book that he an Buddy published,
but I don't think it's safe to say Buddy didn't write the Metronome article.
What proof have you?

"Important note: drumsticks ARE NOT like hammers.."

Yes they are Hammers, in fact that's exactly what they are.
They are not bouncing balls. you hold the sticks not throw them at the drums and then catch them.

You guess John Blackwell grooves ok?
Are you kidding?? John is a groove machine, that's why Prince hired him.
He plays that hard because he's playing in Arenas and Stadiums
night after night not night clubs and bars.
Of course he could play softly if he wanted or needed to.

"It seems like there's something you're not understanding when it comes to upstrokes and downstrokes,

really? what is the something I don't understand?

" I think you might be overanalyzing or exaggerating these ideas"

Maybe. But I think all I've said is that I think they are useless things to practice because they are not in accordance with the laws of motion
and anatomy. That took no analysis, it's a simple fact of motion,
that any one could understand if they suspend their preconceptions
about Moeller and maybe understand a little more about motion and
human anatomy, then what I criticize about Moeller would be obvious.

[brittc89]

This is the most ridiculously long argument I have heard on here in a while. Just play what sounds good and feels good to you. I feel like there are too many people thinking about this too much and its just gonna make you sound goofy on a drumset. Play the drums should not be a physics equation, it should be a musical expression. Having good technique is really important, but nothing should replace the musicallity of the instrument and I feel like petty squabblings over the laws of gravity and the only way to practice and blah blah blah are doing just that. Just play the drums.

[Wavelength]

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html

Watching these videos won't hurt.

[Wavelength]

The sticks want to rebound up when you play because your
first motion is down. If you moved up first then you would come
down for the note and the stick would not want to rebound away.

You strike from up to down. I strike from up to down. It's the same motion. What I'm trying to get across is the motion that leads the stick up. You do it before each stroke, or between strokes. I do the motion during the previous stroke, exploiting the sticks rebound whenever possible. It's a minute difference, but a crucial one.

why would i want to change my motions when playing an accent
in a fast passage as opposed to a backbeat. An Accent is an Accent at any tempo, So I use the same motion for both.

You seemed to miss the word PRE-EMPTIVE. When you play backbeats you have time to let the hand rest in the down position. When you play a stream of consecutive loud notes, your hands don't have time to rest in the down position, since they need to be ready to strike the drum. Using an extra windup motion between strokes is a waste of time and effort, when you can accomplish the same thing using the sticks' natural rebound.

[jazzin']

Depending on tempo and volume for the unaccented note I would lift the stick up by turning the wrist and then turn again on the way down. Most of the energy is expended on the way up. But if tempos are fast or the volume is high I may add a little energy on the way down, For the accent I would
lift my wrist slightly and then turn it as it falls back, creating a slight whipping motion , this add a little more mass to the stick and creates the accent.
I would compare it to walking (unaccented) and then jumping (accent)
so as to come down with more force.

You've basically just described using the Moeller stroke. Also you keep referring to really odd analogies which simply don't relate to playing drums. What do walking and lifting your legs have to do with holding a drumstick and whacking various drums on a drumkit? Or hammers? Hammers are damn heavy! Drumsticks weigh very little.
Check out my first post. What do you think?
Oh and by the way. When you play a simple backbeat you use the Moeller stroke in both your hands. If you're relaxed. Right hand: most often you accent the quarters. To do this you use a whipping motion or even push pull depending on how hard you're playing. Left hand: Lift up just before the stroke and whip it down creating a strong accent. Then pause and again just before the stroke you lift your wrist up letting the tip of the stick stay down and then whip 'CRACK'! Nice solid backbeat using natural motion.
But, this is getting ridiculous and while I agree with all the great posts in response to yours check out brittc89's and have a think about that. Let all your physics theories and notions go. Just play.

[aydee]

its from the modern drummer festival 2006 DVD package

[JCM]

Nobody's technique is perfect. There is always going to be something minutely wrong with your technique no matter how much you practice. If you are going to spend all your time practicing your technique, then what is the point in sitting behind a drumkit? As much as everyone is entitled to their own opinion, some professionals have bad technique but it is this flaw in their technique that makes them as good as they are. Technique is important to a certain extent, but when you begin to sound like you have been personally offended by what somebody has said, I feel you have lost the plot. Technique maybe an important aspect of drumming but it is still ONE facet of drumming nonetheless.

[stasz]

Depending on tempo and volume for the unaccented note I would lift the stick up by turning the wrist and then turn again on the way down. Most of the energy is expended on the way up. But if tempos are fast or the volume is high I may add a little energy on the way down, For the accent I would
lift my wrist slightly and then turn it as it falls back, creating a slight whipping motion , this add a little more mass to the stick and creates the accent.
I would compare it to walking (unaccented) and then jumping (accent)
so as to come down with more force.

My point (although I wasn't online to answer quickly enough) was that if you play an accent, then before the stroke you lift the tip of your stick higher than a normal stroke. This motion would be considered an upstroke. It just has to be done to play louder. The more distance you put between the stick and the drum, the louder you play (when the stick moves at the same speed).

[cactusjack]

If you take a hammer and hit a rebounding surface, such as a trampoline, it will fly back up to you with the force you generated with your downstroke. You don't need to lift it back up and it will come up a lot faster.

Can I assume you are describing what Famularo calls the Free Stroke?
Letting the drumheads tension return the stick to you?

Wavelength recommended I watch Dom Famularo, so I watched his first one on free stroke.
And stopped right there. He states that the free stroke
is a fundamental motion and where you start with rebound technique.
If that is the first thing you learn your technical aspirations are doomed before you begin.
Again I refer to Buddy's statement that you must have
a firm grip with your fingers. I do not see a firm grip when Dom is playing
the Free Stroke. Buddy recommends playing on a non rebounding surface FIRST,
to develop the wrists strength.
Without a strong wrist first you cannot understand what Buddy is trying to teach you
because you cannot FEEL it until your wrist is strong.
Buddy knows that you must first understand up and down not down and up as Dom
demonstrates and says is first. So who are you going to believe is correct about what is fundamental and first, Dom or Buddy?
So if you throw your stick down and let it go and rebound by itself it will fly back up at you very, very quickly. If you throw it down and pull it back up with your wrist it is stopping it's natural inertia and it is noticeably slower.
This is why I originally stated that Moeller was absurd. You are judging what I say based on your preconceptions about playing and still don't understand the meaning of my words. I repeat everything on earth
must go up to come down, that is a fundamental fact of nature and
motion, Practicing motions that ignore that fact are, useless and do not improve your playing, they will not build the real muscles you need to play
because you are not using them. I'm not talking about weight lifting here,
I'm not trying to develop bulging musculature as someone else seemed to think in one of the more hostile posts.
For a muscle to develop it must work against gravity that's how your muscles work they move your skeleton around fighting gravity at every move. Something Wavelength doesn't seem to take into account since he dissed me for using my muscles and not letting what he calls natural rebound work in my behalf.
What everyone is calling natural rebound is just letting go of the stick and
losing control until it flys back to your hand and you get your grip back.

Why does everyone defend Moeller and ignore Buddy?
I find that fact quite odd.

[cactusjack]

This is the most ridiculously long argument I have heard on here in a while. Just play what sounds good and feels good to you. I feel like there are too many people thinking about this too much and its just gonna make you sound goofy on a drumset. Play the drums should not be a physics equation, it should be a musical expression. Having good technique is really important, but nothing should replace the musicallity of the instrument and I feel like petty squabblings over the laws of gravity and the only way to practice and blah blah blah are doing just that. Just play the drums.

I agree with you.
you should only play what feels and sounds good to you.
doing so ensures that you are in control of what you play
and if your in control the time will be solid and grooving.
The free stroke FEELS wrong, that's one reason I call it absurd.
I only used physics and anatomy to explain why it is wrong .

[Raymond Bloom]

wow, I never heared a drummer who is THAT MUCH wrong about technique and simple laws of physics in general! I will take my time tomorrow and explain all this in details.

PS. Buddy had a good Moeller technique and understanding about the free stroke, that's something you should learn from him...

[Raymond Bloom]

also, the free stroke (Gladstone) and the Moeller are two completely different techniques!! although, they work together, like everything that is natural khehe

[DannyG]

Is it avalible to watch anywhere?

[Wavelength]

I don't see how rebound and a firm grip are exclusionary to one another -- unless firm grip means a death grip.

[bean6022000]

The articles and accompanying videos at the following website are, in my opinion, the most comprehensive history of, demonstrations of, and list of advantages of the moeller. I think one can easily see some advantages to this method.

http://www.digbydoodle.com/Moeller/vintage.htm

[centralzeke]

"You are judging what I say based on your preconceptions about playing and still don't understand the meaning of my words."

No, we are judging (at least me) what you're saying based on our own experience with Moeller and rebound. Not our opinion on an abstract topic - actual experience. Just like your opinion on pillow practice should be formed from your own experience and progress with it, not something you think Buddy Rich wrote. And I'm sure you are judging it on your own experience, right?

Some of us know that Moeller is a natural motion that works with physics and gravity and our body. I personally know getting the natural Moeller motion down sped my leading hand up so I can do 190+ bpm eighth notes. It relaxed everything and gave me increased technical ability that I never thought was possible. I can also go even faster because my wrist and finger technique improved tremendously as a result.

When you do a free stroke, you don't "lose control" of the stick. Just curious, where did you find that out.. from trying it? If you've lost control of the stick, you've done it wrong. Dom isn't losing control of the stick. I don't understand how are we actually having a debate about rebound - and when we are talking about full strokes, half strokes and low strokes we are talking about rebound.

[stasz]

...I don't get a rebuttal?

I feel unloved.

Well, at this point I don't think I want to be part of this argument.

[caprisun3484]

if you have itunes and an ipod there is a podcast of him doing some pretty cool stuff

[aydee]

Is it avalible to watch anywhere?

you can buy it at most music instrument stores. might also be on www. youtube.com

[jazzin']

Can I assume you are describing what Famularo calls the Free Stroke?
Letting the drumheads tension return the stick to you?

Wavelength recommended I watch Dom Famularo, so I watched his first one on free stroke.
And stopped right there. He states that the free stroke
is a fundamental motion and where you start with rebound technique.
If that is the first thing you learn your technical aspirations are doomed before you begin.
Again I refer to Buddy's statement that you must have
a firm grip with your fingers. I do not see a firm grip when Dom is playing
the Free Stroke. Buddy recommends playing on a non rebounding surface FIRST,
to develop the wrists strength.
Without a strong wrist first you cannot understand what Buddy is trying to teach you
because you cannot FEEL it until your wrist is strong.
Buddy knows that you must first understand up and down not down and up as Dom
demonstrates and says is first. So who are you going to believe is correct about what is fundamental and first, Dom or Buddy?

This is why I originally stated that Moeller was absurd. You are judging what I say based on your preconceptions about playing and still don't understand the meaning of my words. I repeat everything on earth
must go up to come down, that is a fundamental fact of nature and
motion, Practicing motions that ignore that fact are, useless and do not improve your playing, they will not build the real muscles you need to play
because you are not using them. I'm not talking about weight lifting here,
I'm not trying to develop bulging musculature as someone else seemed to think in one of the more hostile posts.
For a muscle to develop it must work against gravity that's how your muscles work they move your skeleton around fighting gravity at every move. Something Wavelength doesn't seem to take into account since he dissed me for using my muscles and not letting what he calls natural rebound work in my behalf.
What everyone is calling natural rebound is just letting go of the stick and
losing control until it flys back to your hand and you get your grip back.

Why does everyone defend Moeller and ignore Buddy?
I find that fact quite odd.


Yes I'm describing the free stroke. There is no lack of control. If you have seen Dom play you will understand there is definitely no lack of control.
I'm not basing things on my preconceptions. I'm basing them on my experience with both of these methods. I was a big believer in pillow practice when I first started and practiced it for many years. I got to a point in which I could not improve greatly. Then I went to my current teacher who taught me principles I had started to do naturally as a result of wanting to be more relaxed which were things like Moeller/push-pull/etc etc etc.
It has given a greater understanding of playing drums and the techniques involved that can make a big difference.
I don't think anyone ignores Buddy. He had fantastic use of natural rebound, free stroke, Moeller etc.
But, I do think you're ignoring that in the last 30 years technique has come a long way since Buddy was playing. There are many people who are technically much better than Buddy now (although we don't like to admit it and some will vehemently deny the possibility of there ever being anyone close) which is something you cannot ignore. Jojo Mayer for example. Buddy is great but he is not the 'be all, end all' of drumming and drumming technique.

[cactusjack]

...I don't get a rebuttal?

I feel unloved.

Well, at this point I don't think I want to be part of this argument.

Sorry you feel, unloved. But of course you must raise a louder note higher than a soft one, why do you think I would dispute that with you?
No rebuttal was necessary.

[cactusjack]

Yes I'm describing the free stroke. There is no lack of control. If you have seen Dom play you will understand there is definitely no lack of control.
I'm not basing things on my preconceptions. I'm basing them on my experience with both of these methods. I was a big believer in pillow practice when I first started and practiced it for many years. I got to a point in which I could not improve greatly. Then I went to my current teacher who taught me principles I had started to do naturally as a result of wanting to be more relaxed which were things like Moeller/push-pull/etc etc etc.
It has given a greater understanding of playing drums and the techniques involved that can make a big difference.
I don't think anyone ignores Buddy. He had fantastic use of natural rebound, free stroke, Moeller etc.
But, I do think you're ignoring that in the last 30 years technique has come a long way since Buddy was playing. There are many people who are technically much better than Buddy now (although we don't like to admit it and some will vehemently deny the possibility of there ever being anyone close) which is something you cannot ignore. Jojo Mayer for example. Buddy is great but he is not the 'be all, end all' of drumming and drumming technique.

I'm sorry but Dom's demonstration of the free stroke is one of the silliest things
I have ever seen someone claim is a fundamental motion.
Down than up as I've repeatedly said is the direct opposite of the
way everything on earth moves, don't you understand that?
So how can it be an efficient model for moving the drum stick?
Please explain to me how defying physical laws in doing a physical act
will lead to a superior outcome, than respecting the laws of motion and trying
to use them to play instead .
Is everyone here at drummerworld so enamored of this ancient method that
they cannot understand that parts of it are in opposition to simple physical facts.

Then I went to my current teacher who taught me principles I had started to do naturally as a result of wanting to be more relaxed which were things like Moeller/push-pull/etc etc etc.

Well without seeing you play, it sounds like you were getting your wrist strong enough
to start to find out how to relax,
You said you practiced on a pillow a lot, well thats why you got to the point where
you realized you needed to relax more. That wrist strength you got from the pillow
enabled you to find by FEEL the other motions you mentioned that helped you relax.

Getting back to the free stroke,
I've seen in concert on numerous occasions Buddy Rich, Art Blakey,
Tony Williams, Dennis Chambers, PhillyJoe Jones, Vinnie Coliauta,
Jeff Porcaro, Carlos Vega, Billy Cobham, How many more should I list,
and not one of them ever stopped the stick up in the air by their
earlobes the way Dom does after playing a note in his Free Stroke Video.


But, I do think you're ignoring that in the last 30 years technique has come a long way since Buddy was playing.

I'm ignoring technique has come a long way ????
Your the one defending a method from the begining of the last century
as the method of good technique, not me.
Maybe you need to open your mind to the possibility that the commonly
accepted wisdom here a drummerworld may be flawed and have some errors.
Playing Down then Up will prevent you from ever learning
attack and what it feels like. That is the lack of control I hear
when Dom plays. He has no control of the attack
because he has released his grip on the stick and thrown it down at the drum.
When you let go like that you are not holding the stick firmly at the moment of impact,
so you have no tactile feedback as to what is happening
at the critical moment your are creating your sound.
And isn't what it sounds like, what music is all about?
and isn't that what technique is for? to produce a good sound?
Please don't try to tell me about pulling the sound out of the drum
as that is also a ridiculous idea.
The sound wave is not attached to the tip of the stick.
Pulling the stick into the air does not pull sound out of a drum.
Inspite of what Dave Weckl claims in his video.
When you have control of the attack, You have control of
the sound the stick makes. You can play with an open tone or a
muffled one as you can feel it in your hands and make
the simple changes that control it.

[brittc89]

Down than up as I've repeatedly said is the direct opposite of the
way everything on earth moves, don't you understand that?
So how can it be an efficient model for moving the drum stick?
What about Newtons Third law of motion? Wont the action of striking of the stick against the surface then create an equal and opposite reaction, which will propel the stick upwards? ANd gravity pulls down if Im not mistaken, so it makes sense to me that it would be efficient, but then again Im not a physics whiz and I may be horribly mistaken.

[cactusjack]

Man this thread is so hard to read. Everybody's arguing different points or something. Cactus is on another planet. Moeller is not for playing single strokes, its for playing an accent followed by multiple softer strokes. So why are you arguing about single strokes Cactus? The point of moeller is to work with your body's natural movement. Are you doubting all the people that do use it? Joe Morello uses moeller or something similar to it. Are you saying he is unmusical and creates tension? I don't know where I'm going with this but so many of your points are irrelevant or just wrong. What are you trying to argue here again?

Honestly I just want to say some of the rudest things to you because you sound like such an ignorant douche.

I'm so confused. I want to see a video of what you consider to be good technique because what you're saying sounds so illogical to me.
Moeller is a very natural motion, something that you could naturally use without even knowing you use it. Your understanding of it might be a little off.

I'll make it as simple as possible.
Up then Down = Good
Down then Up = useless, Contrary to all laws of motion on planet Earth.
Why is this reality so hard for everyone to accept?

What is illogical about following laws of motion and human anatomy?
It seems more illogical to ignore them to me.

Why get mad at me because I don't agree with your
concepts of how to play?

Most of the things I'm doing technically that are different
from you are too small and subtle of motions for you to see
in a video unless they were pointed out to you as they occurred.
The technique I use and teach is only learned by listening
and feeling, you would have to sit opposite me and play
some rudiments togther, then you would hear the sound
and tonal difference between our strokes and I could then
coach you in making the proper adjustments in grip and motion
that would aid your understanding of what I'm doing .
Watching technique will not teach it to you.
If that were so we could all watch a Buddy Rich video
and be done with it in an evening.
You have to hear it in your head and then feel it in your hands.

[cactusjack]

The articles and accompanying videos at the following website are, in my opinion, the most comprehensive history of, demonstrations of, and list of advantages of the moeller. I think one can easily see some advantages to this method.

http://www.digbydoodle.com/Moeller/vintage.htm

I just watched all the videos, As I've said before silly old stuff.
Here's something for you to ponder.
The opposable human thumb is meant for grasping as I understand human anatomy.
So what is the advantage of not using the thumb and index to hold the stick when that's their anatomical function , to grasp. Why try to hold the stick with the weakest fingers instead of the strongest?

[cactusjack]

What about Newtons Third law of motion? Wont the action of striking of the stick against the surface then create an equal and opposite reaction, which will propel the stick upwards? ANd gravity pulls down if Im not mistaken, so it makes sense to me that it would be efficient, but then again Im not a physics whiz and I may be horribly mistaken.

Yes it would, but only if you throw the stick down first
will the stick fly up as it's reaction
If you start low turn the wrist to lift the stick up and then
relax and allow gravity to return the stick to the drumhead
it will stop low, not high.
Newtons third law is observed.
As I've said previously, it's similar to running,
you lift your foot up and gravity pulls it down as fast as you lifted it.
The exact same thing occurs with the hands, you lift up
and then gravity pulls you back to where you started from .
It's so easy, and natural to do.

[Wavelength]

If you start low turn the wrist to lift the stick up and then relax and allow gravity to return the stick to the drumhead.

Hmm. So you don't actually propel the stick towards the drum?

[centralzeke]

Wow this is just ridiculous.

"Down then Up = useless, Contrary to all laws of motion on planet Earth."

Honestly, how can you even write that? It's not true. What happens when you bounce a basketball on the ground? It comes back up. That's making use of gravity and physics.

According to your logic, drummers should lift their drumsticks up and then let go of them, or better yet throw their sticks up in the air so that they land on the correct drums.

Of course you don't see drummers playing a full stroke exercise during their performance. But you might see them make a bunch of consecutive accents which mastery of the full stroke lets you do with ease. And control. It's called a technique exercise. I've never seen Dennis Chambers pull out some pillows to play on while he was performing.

You see Dom's full stroke as a lack of control... right. Keep dreaming. It might look like that to you, but if you mastered rebound you'd realize that you can in fact completely control the stick without squeezing it like a "hammer".

Everyone this is pointless. It seems like cactusjack is living on another planet where gravity actually moves away from the earth.

[samthebeat]

Here you will see buddy implement just about every technique known to man, moller, control strokes, rebound strokes, finger technique. Not all of this uses rebound, but all of it is a minpulation of how a drum stick reacts to drum heads. Rebound is either killed or used, it does not just dissapear. Were not walking on pavements here, were playing drums.


URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgaD54YcXpA&mode=related&search="]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgaD54YcXpA&mode=related&search=[/URL]

[MCS]

I've just read through this very long thread and I've found it very interesting. If we look at what CatusJack is saying:

'Down then Up = useless, Contrary to all laws of motion on planet Earth.'

He's actually quite right, as you need to LIFT the stick first moving it UP, in order to then drop or throw the stick back DOWN, which then allows it to move back UP. Without lifting how else does the stick ever get high enough to allow us to move it down? It should really be UP,DOWN,UP, as without UP there is no DOWN!!

To use the basketball analogy, the ball will never bounce unless it is first lifted to some height, then it's dropped and it rebounds back, but the first motion used was to lift it and you don't lift down, you lift up!!

[abe]

I've just read through this very long thread and I've found it very interesting. If we look at what CatusJack is saying:

'Down then Up = useless, Contrary to all laws of motion on planet Earth.'

He's actually quite right, as you need to LIFT the stick first moving it UP, in order to then drop or throw the stick back DOWN, which then allows it to move back UP. Without lifting how else does the stick ever get high enough to allow us to move it down? It should really be UP,DOWN,UP, as without UP there is no DOWN!!

To use the basketball analogy, the ball will never bounce unless it is first lifted to some height, then it's dropped and it rebounds back, but the first motion used was to lift it and you don't lift down, you lift up!!


Acctualy you'll lift basketball only once after that you can work only down, down ,down. You add extra energy when throwing ball down thus working only one way. In fast passages it's very smart. But yes you can lift the ball up throw it down put your hand on it -stop it and bring it up again :)

[ajgdrums7814]

CJ, I would suggest you pick up a book on general physics and motion and learn a little more about it. I just think you're a little confused as to what is and isn't true regarding making use of gravity. By moving the stick from down to up, you are fighting gravity, not working with it. Gravity pulls everything down, therefore you are exerting more energy to pull the stick away from the ground. The free stroke and similar rebound-oriented methods involve hitting the drum and letting the natural laws of energy rebound the stick for you, so that you don't have to fight gravity and exert more energy than you have to.

[ajgdrums7814]

I also think that you are confusing the movement of 'up to down' and the term 'natural'.

'Natural' is in regards to the motion your body makes when executing the free stroke or the Moeller stroke. It's literally a natural MOVEMENT of your body. Your wrist moves in that motion naturally. Your elbow and forearm move in the Moeller motion naturally. In other words, you aren't fighting to get your body to do crazy movements which can lead to trouble and injury. You are using the laws of physics, in accordance with the natural movements of your limbs, to get the most out of your playing.

[jazzin']

Well, I'm simply done with this thread. I'm taking britt c's advice and am off to play some funky musak! While Caktusjack can keep appointing his weird ridiculous arguments on technique to the highest realms of drumming nirvana, I have a strong notion that very few people will actually take anything he says as worthy enough to warrant exploration.

I'm pretty sure that he is just being a contentious troll. Someone with only a few posts will not often be that argumentative unless they are bored and simply want attention. Once again, Caktoooos jack, I suggest going to a good technique teacher. It will change your odd perspective on some technical matters that really have nothing to do with the grand laws of physics and aeronautical engineering that you seem to think it has to do with. It's drumming for christ's sake. You're only holding a small pair of drumsticks and waving your arms around hitting things.

[MCS]

Acctualy you'll lift basketball only once after that you can work only down, down ,down. You add extra energy when throwing ball down thus working only one way. In fast passages it's very smart. But yes you can lift the ball up throw it down put your hand on it -stop it and bring it up again :)

Yep. Totally agree, when you are bouncing something you only lift it the first time. What I think CatusJack is getting at is the up part of the motion is being ignored to an extent.

When I first started drumming, many moons ago, I was told that to play from my wrists. Through experimenting over the past 20 years, I've found the Moeller technique to be good for one accent per hand, giving us a maximum of two consecutive accents. I know I'm not the only one to have this thought, as I had a similar conversation with Joe Morello and probably many others have came to the same conclusions.

When I find I want to play multiple hand to hand accents of three or more, all of which are rim shots, you then have to start using the wrists and physically start lifting the sticks, as the rim shots reduce the rebound dramatically. This is when the upwards part of the motion becomes very important and the wrists take over.


CJ, I would suggest you pick up a book on general physics and motion and learn a little more about it. I just think you're a little confused as to what is and isn't true regarding making use of gravity. By moving the stick from down to up, you are fighting gravity, not working with it. Gravity pulls everything down, therefore you are exerting more energy to pull the stick away from the ground. The free stroke and similar rebound-oriented methods involve hitting the drum and letting the natural laws of energy rebound the stick for you, so that you don't have to fight gravity and exert more energy than you have to.

There is a slight flaw here, as we don't get the same amount of energy back, which we put in, as some of that energy is converted into sound. As a result of this the wrists do have to provide that extra impetus if you are playing at loud volumes. The hard bit is feeling when the energy of the stroke is expended and the wrist then takes over, bringing it back to the original height. Also, the stick has to go up first, before it comes down. It's like old saying, 'What goes up must come down'...

As regards to the Moeller technique being natural, I'm not 100% convinced, as if it was natural, everyone would do it without lessons. I know that some people have got there naturally, but I'd wager there's more people who never get there. I think it may be the most efficient method for playing single accents followed by a series of unaccented notes, but even then I remember reading somewhere that it was originally designed for one loud accent and the other notes were a later addition. You've got to remember, those old calfskin heads probably didn't have much re-bound, especially if they were wet!!! If that were the case it would have been all wrist.

[Paul Quin]

What a great thread . . . .(!?) The truth of the matter is that, like many discussions, the extreme positions are generally wrong and the truth lies in the middle. I agree with CactusJack that the moeller method has taken on some mythical significance, is seen by many as the ultimate and only true technique to accomplish certain percussive goals and has obtained some kind of aura which is not entirely justified. CactusJack is dead wrong, however, that the moeller method serves no purpose at all and should be discarded along with the dirty bathwater. In coming to that conclusion it appears that Mr. cactusjack is confusing the exaggerated motions used as a teaching tool to make sure that the fundamental aspects of the technique are correct with the practical application of the method itself. If you watch Weckl or even Tony Royster - both of whom use Moeller in its appropriate form and for the right reasons - you will see that their use of rebound through very subtle and refined versions of the original moeller motion is vital to their style of playing.

To that same end please watch Keith Carlock - http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Keith_Carlock.html - www.keithcarlock.com (http://www.keithcarlock.com) - who uses what he describes as a "modified moeller" technique for virtually all of his playing. This includes his playing of ghost notes and his ride patterns. While he does use his wrist, you can see that he has a very loose grip (with fulcrum between index finger and thumb) and uses rebound as an energy saving technique.

So, is the moeller method THE most important technique to master - No. Is it one which is useful and necessary to obtain certain objectives - yes. Are there great drummers who use the moeller method to add to their arsenal - yes. Are there great drummers who use don't use it in its pure form - yes!

The answer my friends lies somewhere in the middle of some of the extreme positions taken above.

Paul

[bean6022000]

I just watched all the videos, As I've said before silly old stuff.
Here's something for you to ponder.
The opposable human thumb is meant for grasping as I understand human anatomy.
So what is the advantage of not using the thumb and index to hold the stick when that's their anatomical function , to grasp. Why try to hold the stick with the weakest fingers instead of the strongest?

You should read the articles that accompany the videos. Particularly in the second article that addresses Moeller as it applies to the drumset, the author specifically addresses the thumb and index/middle finger grip; and advocates using the grip that the music calls for. The two finger grip is used for power. If you had watched all the videos, you should have seen that the author demonstrated both grips.

Truthfully, I learned the way you are advocating, and it does still serve me somewhat. Yes, my wrists got strong learning this way, but I think it is an extremely tense way to play, which leads to fatigue and power and speed barriers. To a great extent, I wish I had never been taught this way as it is very hard to “unlearn.” Since learning the Moeller and freestroke methods, my playing has become more relaxed and I don’t hit the power and speed barriers as readily.

I think good examples of evolving to a more relaxed style are the Bonzo videos on this website. Note in the 1970 videos he is more tense and, more or less, bashing. Contrast this with the 1979 videos where he is playing much more relaxed. In my opinion, he sounds much better in the ’79 videos. Every technique has its place. Closing your mind to other techniques, to the exclusion of only yours, seems counterproductive. Perhaps you should give other techniques a try?

[Raymond Bloom]

First of all, there are two techniques that are completely different the Free stroke (Gladstone) and the Moeller technique, although, they work together!

The Free stroke (Gladstone technique)
''Down than up as I've repeatedly said is the direct opposite of the
way everything on earth moves, don't you understand that?''
''drumsticks are like hammers''

ok, so try (better not) to hit a piece of rubber with a really heavy hammer and at the moment when it hit's the surface, stop the hammer from rebounding. What happens? 1) you absorbe completely all the inertia
2) you brake your wrists because of that...
but the most important thing is - the hammer wants to REBOUND!!! Why would you want to stop it?

The Gladstone tehcnique is based 100% on rebound, you save 50% of the energy because you never lift up the stick, so now you can add these 50% to the downstroke. The result is a stroke with maximum power and minimal effort, the sound is opened and full.

Now, the full stroke position is mostly an exercise, to understand the importance of rebound, although it's the heights of a stroke, and there's nothing wrong to play like that if you want a really big, loud and opend sound! Jojo Mayer showed me a full stroke Gladstone rimshot, it was the loudest thing I've ever heared.
Every surface has atleast some rebound, for example, if your flor tom has 50% bounce opposed to your snare drum, than the most effective and natural way would be to play with that 50% bounce.
When you absorb the energy hat comes from the drumsticks hitting the drumhead, you add strain to your body, which can lead you to injury, also the sound changes, it becomes dry and staccato


The Moeller technique
This technique is a systhem of accents, if you want to play a solid, non-accented single stroke roll, Moeller is not the technique for this purpose.

The Moeller stroke starts from the down position, you pull the back of the stick upwards (the tip of the stick is in contact with the drum head) and then you do a whip ''pow'' there's the stroke, this motion is similar like waving a horsewhip, the energy from the hand is transfered to the horsewhip, you can see a waving motion there, that's the inertia being transfered
Jojo Mayer showing the basic Moeller motion (without rebound) http://drummerworld.com/News/JoJoMayerDVD3.html

The Moeller technique has two options, you can play it with rebound or without rebound

pillows or practice pads?
this is what Jojo Mayer told me:
''Here's my 10 cents on this one:

Personally, I never practiced on pillows. Intuitively it felt not right. It's too much strain on your body to build facilities that way...we are musicians...not athletes.

Pillow practice will train your muscles against resistance and change the balance of the muscles towards slow twitching muscles as opposed to fast twitching muscles...you will build power, yes... Speed ,no. You were right about this (marathon/sprinter)

[edit, the thing I sayed was: ''maybe training muscle mass if wanting to get speed and endurance is not the best way, think of marathon runners and sprinters compaerd to wieght lifters'']

I guess the bottom line is that by practicing on pillows you will obtain a style of playing "throug" the drums as opposed to "out" of the drums. When you practice on pillows you will sound like playing on pillows behind the drumset too!

Dennis, Blackwell or Donati: dry staccato sound. Listen to Omar Hakim, Steve Smith, Morello or Weckl: open singing sound...
All these players have great control, speed and power.....so I guess go for the sound!''

A strong wrist is the key of great technique, but you have to be smart on how to train it, it's more effective to do stretching exercises (free stroke, full stroke position, do the Stone killer exercise for 30 minutes and your hands will fall from being tired) than resistance exercises (pillow practice)


in the end, I'd like to say that there is no right or wrong technique, but there are the natural approach to drumming, from the musical stand point, the most important thing is the sound and it's completely insignificant how you acheive it, but... as a drummer, you want to keep yourself in good shape and prevent yourself from unwanted shock, injuries etc

I had the luck to learn from Jojo Mayer and he compeltely changed the way I play and also changed my musical thinking (but that's a bit off topic for this discussion)
This is how all these Gladstone and Moeller principles look, the master at work...
http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/jojomayerbasel1.html

This dvd is an absolute must have for every serious drummer, do ourselves a favour - BUY IT!! It will end all this discussions


best of luck,
Raymond

[Davidb59]

You're only holding a small pair of drumsticks and waving your arms around hitting things.

Damn - you're right. It's so easy. lol

[Alex Luce]

The articles and accompanying videos at the following website are, in my opinion, the most comprehensive history of, demonstrations of, and list of advantages of the moeller. I think one can easily see some advantages to this method.

http://www.digbydoodle.com/Moeller/vintage.htm

Actually, there is something wrong with that guy's technique. His left arm is fine, but his right arm is completely stiff from the forearm down. He is not rotating or pivoting his right wrist, but moving his arm at the elbow to produce a downstroke. That is not good form.

After I saw that, I really didn't have the patience to read through the rest of the website.

[Drums558]

Another excellent post from Mr. Bloom.
Thanks Raymond, i've been a bit curious about the difference between moeller and gladstone.
Since this thread is heading this direction heres another question.
What is the difference between a full stroke and a free stroke? Just curious because these two terminolgys are used often here on DW and I always thought they were the same but I get the impression they are different. Could you or anyone please clarify this.

Mike

[Raymond Bloom]

What is the difference between a full stroke and a free stroke? Just curious because these two terminolgys are used often here on DW and I always thought they were the same but I get the impression they are different. Could you or anyone please clarify this.

Mike
Thank you, Mike!

The full stroke is one of the positions of the Free Stroke, there are basically three positions full stroke, half stroke, low stroke

check it out Dom Famularo, he shows all these positions here:
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo/dom4HQ.html
or download:
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo/dom4HQ.mov

[Alex Luce]

That is the lack of control I hear
when Dom plays. He has no control of the attack
because he has released his grip on the stick and thrown it down at the drum.


I noticed that too, how he lets go of the stick, that is really weird. I don't think Famularo actually teaches that method though, I guess it is just something he does.

In regards to your posts; to me a full stroke is all about volume, the further the stick travels the louder the sound can be. So I bring the stick all the way back after one loud stroke so I can whap the drum again. If I am playing a final loud stroke, I may not bring the stick back up, or I may just let it come back up as far as it rebounds. I have never experienced any tension playing this way.

Regards,

Alex

[bean6022000]

Actually, there is something wrong with that guy's technique. His left arm is fine, but his right arm is completely stiff from the forearm down. He is not rotating or pivoting his right wrist, but moving his arm at the elbow to produce a downstroke. That is not good form.

After I saw that, I really didn't have the patience to read through the rest of the website.

It is unfortunate that you stopped after that. There is a wealth of knowledge in the articles and videos. His right arm is not stiff in every video. I believe it was stiff, in the video you mentioned, because of the dotted notes he was playing (i.e. very staccato).

[DannyG]

Nope i checked youtube first. . . . .Nothing. . .well not the full clip anyway?

[cactusjack]

Hmm. So you don't actually propel the stick towards the drum?

Hmmm..
maybe you'll start to percieve what I'm saying
but will you be able to feel it?
The first thing to learn is how to lift and relax
and gain control of the attack as it comes down
in reaction to how much energy you expel on
the way up, and as Buddy says keeping a firm grip
all the way. Once you feel that with ease.
You will add the appropriate force on the way down,
by ear for what your trying to play. It's easy if you let
yourself feel the way. You don't have to practice
holding the sticks at different heights to learn how
to control dynamics. It's in your wrists motion up
that most of the force comes from, yes you can add
more on the way down and that is tactile and instinctual.
your ears will tell you if its loud or soft enough and you
respond by sense of touch.
But learning to stab downward as Dom demonstrates
as a fundamental will stiffen you up in subtle ways
that will prevent you from learning what the basic freefall feels like
because you have learned to fire down first in stead of lift.
As I said in the beginning will you be able to feel it.
When your mind tells your hands to play a note, do you lift?
Or have you already trained the muscles to push down?

[jonescrusher]

If you'd spent the time taken to write all these words on learning the moeller strokes, you'd have them entered into your muscle memory, and all would have become clear....

[ZildjianMan1023]

If you'd spent the time taken to write all these words on learning the moeller strokes, you'd have them entered into your muscle memory, and all would have become clear....

see the whole time ive been reading all these posts ive been practicing the technique.. its doing wonders for me

[jangus]

I'll make it as simple as possible.
Up then Down = Good
Down then Up = useless, Contrary to all laws of motion on planet Earth.
Why is this reality so hard for everyone to accept?


Are you kidding me? Talk about a ton of wasted motion and effort. Winding up before strokes? Wow. I shouldn't even be spending my time on somebody that thinks that is a good idea. Is that hard for you to hold your sticks up? I know gravity is real strong. Please tell me what laws of motion support this. FYI, holding the sticks up is not a cause of tension.

[ZildjianMan1023]

Are you kidding me? Talk about a ton of wasted motion and effort. Winding up before strokes? Wow. I shouldn't even be spending my time on somebody that thinks that is a good idea. Is that hard for you to hold your sticks up? I know gravity is real strong. Please tell me what laws of motion support this. FYI, holding the sticks up is not a cause of tension.


OMG! i suffer from gravityosityness

[Nuclear]

Don't misunderstand the benifit of Moeller. It is about economy of motion - gettting more for less work. It isn't meant to be the be-all end-all for speed.

[cactusjack]

I noticed that too, how he lets go of the stick, that is really weird. I don't think Famularo actually teaches that method though, I guess it is just something he does.

In regards to your posts; to me a full stroke is all about volume, the further the stick travels the louder the sound can be. So I bring the stick all the way back after one loud stroke so I can whap the drum again. If I am playing a final loud stroke, I may not bring the stick back up, or I may just let it come back up as far as it rebounds. I have never experienced any tension playing this way.

Regards,

Alex

Hello Alex,
Let's pretend I'm a beginner, I go to the Vic Firth website and watch Dom tell me
about this fundamental motion the free stroke, that I should start with,
so I watch and copy him and get his bad habit. Yes he's is teaching it.
Whether it's by design or ignorance I do not know.
But the beginner won't recognize the weirdness you saw as
he has no experience to draw from to make any determination about Dom
and what he says.
Yes the farther a stick travels the more force it will carry,
also the faster it goes up the faster it will come down and that's
where I get the extra force for the whap as you so eloquently called it : )
As fast as you can lift, gravity will always match you on the way down,
so why use your muscles primarily to move down when gravity serves the same purpose?
But who knows maybe all the scientists, athletes, physical trainers,
yogi's, physists, astronomers, doctors and all my old college profs
have got all this motion, gravity and anatomy stuff
all wrong and I should just trust what Dom and Moeller say
to be correct. They must have superior knowledge after
all they are drummers.

[aydee]

Nope i checked youtube first. . . . .Nothing. . .well not the full clip anyway?

Well, its from the interview segment from MD 2006 DVDs ( thats a 4 disc package) which includes Aarons performace, solo, & wth marvn McQuitty, Ted Campbell & Gerald Heyward.

A friend of mine saw the performance live and said Aaron brought the house down. I

[cactusjack]

Don't misunderstand the benifit of Moeller. It is about economy of motion - gettting more for less work. It isn't meant to be the be-all end-all for speed.

Why does everyone here assume I don't know Moeller
methods because I don't think some of it is very useful for playing?
How can economy of motion be economical when it wastes
energy arresting the sticks motion at the top of it's arc.
I get dissed for stating the simple reality
that everything on earth moves up to come down.
Nothing that moves up waits in the sky before coming down
and I think that fact must be observed for economical motion
to take place, is this idea so hard to understand or accept?
I'm beginning to think that if I say the world is round
the drummers on this forum are going to tell me I don't
know anything and that it is flat. It would make a perfect fit ,
right along with their understanding of motion and anatomy.

[centralzeke]

This has to be a joke. (??)

I suggest everyone drop out of this debate, it's clear there's no hope for enlightenment.

[Alex Luce]

Actually, I am watching the new JoJo Mayer video tonight and he demonstrates letting go of the stick (or bouncing it) when talking about the the free stroke. But I believe JoJo does this for demonstration purposes only, because in the final demonstration of the free stroke he is holding onto the stick with his middle finger fulcrum.

But I am going to try the bouncing thing for fun and see how it feels. You learn something new every day.

Hello Alex,
Let's pretend I'm a beginner, I go to the Vic Firth website and watch Dom tell me
about this fundamental motion the free stroke, that I should start with,
so I watch and copy him and get his bad habit. Yes he's is teaching it.
Whether it's by design or ignorance I do not know.
But the beginner won't recognize the weirdness you saw as
he has no experience to draw from to make any determination about Dom
and what he says.
Yes the farther a stick travels the more force it will carry,
also the faster it goes up the faster it will come down and that's
where I get the extra force for the whap as you so eloquently called it : )
As fast as you can lift, gravity will always match you on the way down,
so why use your muscles primarily to move down when gravity serves the same purpose?
But who knows maybe all the scientists, athletes, physical trainers,
yogi's, physists, astronomers, doctors and all my old college profs
have got all this motion, gravity and anatomy stuff
all wrong and I should just trust what Dom and Moeller say
to be correct. They must have superior knowledge after
all they are drummers.

[Wavelength]

You don't have to practice holding the sticks at different heights to learn how to control dynamics. --- When your mind tells your hands to play a note, do you lift? Or have you already trained the muscles to push down?

I'm not practicing holding the sticks at different heights. I'm practicing 1) lifting the sticks to different heights or 2) letting them rebound to different heights and 3) throwing the sticks down from different heights. There's no constant tension in my hands; my wrists and fingers work like springs that throw the stick back down.

They work against gravity every time you move yourself in any way. They are working against gravity constantly to keep you standing up.

When trying to walk forwards, which do you reckon is more energy efficient:

a) Standing up from a prone position, taking a step and falling down again, or
b) Taking a step after step, not resting between steps.

Dribbling the stick like a ball does not build any muscles you don't already have. But lifting will and until you have those muscles working properly you will not understand where I'm coming from because you cannot feel it. Your too weak. The strength I'm talking
about is not BIG ATHLETE MUSCLES, it's lean fast twitch muscle. I know that lifting a light weight quickly and repeatedly will build fast twitch muscle. So, please explain to me how throwing the stick down works the muscles you use to play and makes them
get stronger without ever resisting against gravity's pull.

There are twitch muscles for both directions, Jack. By practicing the full stroke and the down stroke you're working on the twitch muscles that move the wrist down. By practicing the up stroke you're working on the twitch muscles that move the wrists up.

I have never seen a piece of exercise equipment of any kind for any muscle group that works on the principle of throwing weight down. Have you? Do you make tight jabbing motions in YOGA to build strength, or stretch muscles against gravity slowly and repeatedly.

In drumming, power should come mainly from speed. This it somewhat analogous to martial arts, in which you certainly practice power by making tight jabbing motions (kicks, punches etc...). Granted, you need a certain amount of "slow" strength to move your limbs and keep your body balanced and stable, but "slow" strength in hands and fingers isn't useful for drumming -- or for playing any instrument.

The farther a stick travels the more force it will carry, also the faster it goes up the faster it will come down. -- As fast as you can lift, gravity will always match you on the way down, so why use your muscles primarily to move down when gravity serves the same purpose?

1) The farther the stick is from the drum, the more time and potentialit has to accelerate to any desired velocity. Height won't give power without acceleration. And please don't make any "drop an anvil from an airplane" analogies, since we're not playing with anvils from airplanes. We are moving lightweight sticks and we are moving them small distances.

2) Gravity isn't relative to the speed you lift your sticks. You could lift your stick in a thousandth of a second, yet gravity will have to get the stick moving from a (momentary) halt towards the drum. Gravity isn't that fast to get things moving; you'll get a good amount of acceleration by using twitch muscles. Gravity doesn't serve the purpose of striking a drum at all -- unless you're playing with said anvils from said airplane...

How can economy of motion be economical when it wastes
energy arresting the sticks motion at the top of it's arc. Nothing that moves up waits in the sky before coming down and I think that fact must be observed for economical motion
to take place.

The sticks aren't arrested at the top, they're sprung back. Just like they aren't arrested at the bottom; they're rebounded back if you intend to play a loud stroke right afterwards. You don't wait for an accent keeping the sticks up for five minutes. A single accent motion is pretty much similar to what you play: an upstroke wind-up followed by a downstroke. No stopping sticks up, just one flowing, quick and poweful motion that combines two motions in two directions.

[Jeff Almeyda]

OK I said it. and I mean it.
Moeller is a bunch of old crap for marching drummners.

If it makes you so fast, then why after all his years of practicing it
can't Dave Weckl play single strokes as fast and strong as Dennis Chambers? Just looking at Dave and Dennis, I would bet Dave can run
further and faster than Dennis, so why can't he move his hands as fast?
The reason is simple, Dave is fighting gravity and Dennis is using it.
Dennis Chambers in response to a question at a clinic about how he developed his speed, said that he practiced single strokes on a pillow, after he was told to do that by Buddy Rich as a youngster.
Follow the Natural Rebound ??? Not on a pillow!

The stick is not a bouncing ball it is a hammer.
Learn to lift the stick with your wrist muscles, if you want more speed.
On planet earth things will only come down as fast as they move up.
That means speed is first, determined by your muscles lifting ability.
Holding the sticks in the air, and playing what are called full strokes
will build no muscles you don't already have.

Watch the Buddy Rich videos , The Jazz Legend, in one of the drum solos Buddy builds a single stroke roll from slow to the speed of light.
You will see no Moeller Method, no full strokes.
The stick is 1 inch from the drum head and is lifted up to
the height he wants for the volume he's playing at and then he lets the stick come back down to the drum head.
HE DOES NOT HOLD THE STICK UP IN THE AIR AND THROW IT DOWN. HE LIFTS IT UP FIRST. THEN IT COMES DOWN
This is the direct opposite of what all the Moeller advocates are claiming you should practice. Full Strokes and Half strokes were invented so that the drumline would have their sticks moving in synchronicity, it had nothing to do with playing the drumset or performing a drum solo.
You are better off watching the greats play and making your own decisions based on what you see and hear than watching all the drum instruction videos telling you that Moeller is some secret technique that will give you incredible chops.
Moeller ignores the natural laws of motion and anatomy, so how can it lead to superior technique?

Here are a few observations (in random order):

It seems as if you disagree with both Gladstone (the stick is not a ball) and Moeller in your post.

"Let the stick come down" is one of the strangest ways of looking at a stroke that I've ever seen. Joe Morello would say that you were nuts and he was no fan of Moeller. As far as the free stroke not working muscles, try Joe's 2-50 exercise and tell me if muscles haven't been worked.

You mention Buddy in your examples. I have studied with Morello and Chapin as well as Famularo. They all say the same thing. Buddy never practiced on pillows. He used to say that because he heard that it might be good but he never did it. Dom also told me about the one "lesson" he ever got from Buddy. Buddy said "I'm going to show you one thing that is the secret of all drumming" He then proceeded to demonstrate the preliminary exercise for the free stroke. In it, Buddy started from the UP position and threw the stick down. The exercise requires that you allow the stick to rebound all the way back while the hand stays down. So, either Joe, Jim and Dom are lying or you're wrong.

"Full stroke" merely refers to the height the stick is thrown from. It is not exclusively a Moeller term.

Also, Dom deliberately extends his fingers in the free stroke exercise so as to train the reflex with as little resistance as possible. He mentions it in his book.

Moeller does not ignore laws of natural motion. Here's why: The formula for kinetic energy is 1/2 mass times the square of the velocity. Velocity is far more important to kinetic energy than mass. (Which is why baseball players use light bats swung at high speed)

A "regular" stroke would achieve a certain impact force from the speed reached by the circular motion (all circular motion is acceleration) of the stick traveling towards the head. The Moeller stroke actually employs another "circle" (The "whipping motion" ) in addition to the basic circular motion of the stick. Thus we have an accelerated acceleration going on and that's why the Moeller motion can achieve greater impact than a Gladstone stroke from the same stroke height. We are accelerating the stick at a rate faster than 1G anyway in both cases so gravity has nothing to do with it.

The stroke could be made in zero G. Gravity does not affect this equation significantly because it's force is negligible compared to the force imparted upon the stick by the stroke. Gravity also does not affect mass.

Your statement "On planet earth, things only come down as fast as they come up" makes no sense. What physical law are you talking about? It sounds like some new age philosophy. Physics is a matter of forces acting upon bodies. If a force is imparted upon a mass, it will react according to Newton's (or Einsteins but that's not the point here) laws. That's all there is.

You argue that the stick must come up before it goes down and that you disagree with Moeller. Yet that is EXACTLY what happens in a Moeller stroke. The stick tip moves up ( the "whip") before the stroke comes down. In a GLADSTONE /FREE stroke the stick moves down first.

I don't know you and you may be an excellent drummer but I must disagree with you even though i also think that the Moeller stroke is hyped a little too much. It's a useful technique but it does not replace basic wrist and finger technique.

I do appreciate your courage in your convictions because I must admit that I also have some disagreements with the greats. For me, it's the concept of "tension-free" playing. If you stop every exercise as soon as you feel tension developing you will never learn how to manage it and your chops will probably never get serious. Using Buddy again as an example: No one can tell me that he played tension-free. He mastered tension in all it's forms. He would break his ass to get those notes out sometimes. Like a martial artist with a one-inch punch, he learned how to store tension and release it at will. THAT is where it's at.

[abe]

Nothing that moves up waits in the sky before coming down

Who sad that stick is waiting in the sky - free stroke exercise is to understand motion not for keeping stick in the air! Before fast passages bring the stick up then use rebound for those fast notes and then you can let your hand rest. By the way do you think that someone is holding stick like that when playing on drumset wih crossed hands? No one is asking to keep stick in the air- it's exaggerated possition: exercise.

[DannyG]

Yeh them boys definatly know how to play! Wish i went. . . :-{

[Jimothy]

Blimey! This debate seems to be going all over the place.

At the end of that day, different techniques suit different drummers and different styles. I see drumming a bit like golf, you can play a certain way for years to a good standard, then an adjustment can make you better, or possibly worse.

No one way is the difinitive answer, the more you can learn the more flexible you can be.

[jazzin']

Why does everyone here assume I don't know Moeller
methods because I don't think some of it is very useful for playing?
How can economy of motion be economical when it wastes
energy arresting the sticks motion at the top of it's arc.
I get dissed for stating the simple reality
that everything on earth moves up to come down.
Nothing that moves up waits in the sky before coming down
and I think that fact must be observed for economical motion
to take place, is this idea so hard to understand or accept?
I'm beginning to think that if I say the world is round
the drummers on this forum are going to tell me I don't
know anything and that it is flat. It would make a perfect fit ,
right along with their understanding of motion and anatomy.


You keep stating the same over and over and over again. We keep saying 'no this is not right' but you don't listen.
No-one holds the stick in the air or stops it at the top and keeps it there. Where do you get this from? The demonstration Dom did? That was a demonstration of how to do it. The basic stroke. Not an application of it. There is no stopping in the air of any stroke. Like the ball dribbling analogy, you push it straight back down as it comes up, wherever that may be. One inch from the head or ten, it doesn't matter and yes the world is flat. Where do you get your info from.

The world is round? Pfffft.

[jazzin']

2) Gravity isn't relative to the speed you lift your sticks. You could lift your stick in a thousandth of a second, yet gravity will have to get the stick moving from a (momentary) halt towards the drum. Gravity isn't that fast to get things moving; you'll get a good amount of acceleration by using twitch muscles. Gravity doesn't serve the purpose of striking a drum at all -- unless you're playing with said anvils from said airplane...






Haha well said Wavelength! This is what I've been trying to get at for a while. Gravity doesn't play much of a role in drumming at all. Yes, it is a basic law of nature. But it really only comes into play in any significant way with large objects moving large distances or by keeping our butt on the drum seat. Wizzing a little drumstick around with your wrists and fingers isn't going to be effected by any law of gravity. Or in such a miniscule amount as to be completely irrelevant. Forget the gravity and physics rubbish. It is inconsequential to our argument.

I'm not going to dignify your answer to my other post with a reply. It's getting a bit patronising.



Note: Just read your post Jeff. I think that should answer any and all of your questions regarding the whole physics angle and just playing drums angle.

[tak22thegoat]

lets just stop all of this.
Cactusjack can have his own way of playing the drums although he might have a disavantage against other players that use the moeller stroke efficiently.

[jangus]

Yeah I'm gonna have a good time playing efficiently with my Moeller technique while you're winding every stroke up like a beginner. It's about efficiency. Bottom line, moeller works for me and no laws of physics are going to make it not work.

Nice post Jeff. That pretty much sums it all up.

[ZildjianMan1023]

Yeah I'm gonna have a good time playing efficiently with my Moeller technique while you're winding every stroke up like a beginner. It's about efficiency. Bottom line, moeller works for me and no laws of physics are going to make it not work.

oh my god, as you can see from reading all these posts on my thread im super excited. haha i didnt start this thread for ppl to be put down or roasted i dont wany anyone thinking that. i love everyones responses its very entertaining

[jonescrusher]

i love everyones responses its very entertaining

Entertaining? It's become lame, just one guy labouring the same point of view over again, and not even hinting that he might open his mind to a different idea.

That said, there's enough stuff here that you can learn from. So please do. Something worthwhile has to come from it.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

It's all drum related, so I say: let it rip!!

[ZildjianMan1023]

Entertaining? It's become lame, just one guy labouring the same point of view over again, and not even hinting that he might open his mind to a different idea.

That said, there's enough stuff here that you can learn from. So please do. Something worthwhile has to come from it.

hah from what i could understand from that.. i have come to understand more about the moler technique i have dont get me wrong.. i just think its entertaing per say to hear other peoples points of view on one mans point of view? makes sense?

[tak22thegoat]

cactusjack, if you want to play using your own technique, that's fine. And it's also fine to share how you think about drumming. however, you may not express your self by saying the moeller technique is for old marching drummers.

[Drums558]

CactusJack,

I have enjoyed this thread and have some fun at your expense. I just wanted to say that I meant no dis-respect in any way.
I would like to say that since I started practicing full strokes and the 2-50 exersize my control over the sticks has improved dramaticly. With that in mind some of what you have to say has been very difficult for me to understand. I do have to wonder if your thoughts would hold more weight in person with demonstration as opposed to typed words on the internet. We all approach drums and music differently, teachers use different methods when teaching, etc... Diversity keeps things interesting and moving forward.
I have found your physics lessons interesting, but i just can't seem to get my arms around excactly what you saying in terms of the motion of a drum stroke. So, unless you live in Utah and can show me, i'm off to work on 2-50 full strokes.

Mike

[centralzeke]

No response to the points I make, just name calling.
This is a discussion forum as it's labeled, but so far I've
received very little discussion of the points I bring up
and lots of recommendation to look at something
I learned as a child and grew beyond decades ago.
Sorry your so insecure that what I say angers you.
Maybe some therapy or anger management would help.

It seems I've come to the wrong place, as it appears to
me more each day that in this forum very few
want to think and discuss drumming.
Unless you agree with them.
So I will say no more on this subject you can all feel
safe in your opinions and continue reassuring each
other that you know it all and have nothing to learn
from someone that has different ideas and life
experience from yourself.
Enjoy your blissful ignorance, I will disturb it no further.
Unless provoked.

Wow, isn't "blissful ignorance" a form of name calling?

You have to understand the reasons why it's so hard and unrealistic to buy into your anti-Moeller and anti-Gladstone rants.

People who have worked on these techniques know from experience that they pay off. I'm at least speaking from my experience: I don't have these opinions because I heard a pro say this is the correct thing to do, this is what a full stroke is, this is what Moeller is. I have the opinions because the techniques worked wonders for me, improved my chops to a place I thought was physically impossible for me to get to.

This isn't a simple case of everyone else's closemindedness. Maybe vice-versa? You come out and say these things like Moeller and Gladstone are not natural motions. That's just not true, it couldn't be more contradictory. The wonderful basis of these two techniques are that they are natural motions that work with your body. That's the point! To people who have worked with these and gotten the amazing results - it's virtually the equivalent of you saying the sun is colored green, or the bench press isn't a good exercise for your chest. It's just not true. That's why you've gotten this feedback.

Here's a little true story from my life experience. I was already really good at drums and had played in the high school jazz band freshmen year. Come junior year, I decided to seek out a new drum teacher because I felt I wasn't going anywhere with the one I had. This new guy had me buy big drum sticks to build up my wrists. He said wrist strength was really important, this guy was like a drumline type teacher, he was all about using your wrists. He said I should get a Reel Feel pad like he had, and use the hard no rebound side to build up "strength" in my wrists. After a month of practicing I developed a painful condition in both arms and had to stop for a complete year. I couldn't play drums, it was pretty depressing. When I started back up, I got really interested in rebound technique and Moeller. And now, 2 years later, I'm at a place I never thought was physically possible. I'm much faster than I was in the 9 years leading up to the injury. Because of these techniques I worked on. So now you know where I'm coming from.

[jazzin']

=cactusjack;341143

Really? I've been told repeatedly to watch Dom, so I did,
and the first thing he did was hold the sticks in the air.
Proclaiming it is fundamental.
If in the application of a theory you find yourself altering what you do
from what the theory says, then maybe there is a possibility that the
theory is in error somehow and what your changing might point you
to what is going wrong with the theory.

Life is short, why waste time practicing things you are
not going to do when you play?




C'mon man, I just said above, which you even quoted, that the Dom thing is a demonstration of the basic stroke. He holds it up to make it easier to see and understand. It is not an application of it (it is the same when applying it but there is no holding it in the air. For demo purposes only). Watch a video of Dom playing a solo or something for an application of it.
See, you're repeating again. You also keep bringing up things that have nothing to do with drumming. Like religion. The context that the religious stuff relates to is so vastly different from what we're talking about as to be a million cosmic parallel universes away. Please, stick to drumming.

Anyway, I've changed theories so many times I couldn't count them anymore, but, one thing that hasn't changed is that certain things or techniques are basic to having good fundamental drumming technique. Relaxation and natural motion will always be seen as an integral part of that. I will keep continuing to try and evolve to bring my ideas to greater fruition in my playing. But, while I agree that there are a myriad of ways to play and a million techniques that can help to make it easier to facilitate ideas, I also think that there are certain ways of playing or going about technique that will be detrimental and just plain and simply wrong.

Unfortunately, I view your ideas and stubborness in the face of common sense and logic as part of the latter. I agree with many here, including yourself, that the Moeller technique (I don't really like calling it a technique as such. It's just a natural way of playing which many do unconsciously. Moeller just happened to name it after seeing all the great drummers of his day doing the same thing) is a grossly over-rated and misunderstood 'technique' but it is still a very valuable part of playing. People can get by without it fine or people can learn it and benefit from it. It doesn't matter. It was something I had always done naturally but which a teacher then refined further so I view it as a valuable part of my playing. No more so than any other part though.

I agree. Life is short. I've always tried to practice, and am continuously refining and letting parts of my practice routine and thought go that I don't feel is helping my actual playing, so that I gain the best possible results to simply play music. Not for any other purpose whatsoever. Not to impress another drummer or anyone for that matter or show off some hot chops or anything. It is all about just making the music I can. So again, I agree, life is short and I don't want to waste my time practicing things that I'm not going to do when I play......like practicing on pillows :)

[Jeff Almeyda]

Everyone should relax a little. If I told you guys about Mike Magnini's "shiver" technique you'd probably all call me crazy too. Yet the man has been doing it for years, has no callouses or tendonitis and is the fastest drummer on earth. So, who knows?

The fact is that what Jack here is describing is a technique uses by such legends as Tony Williams and Dennis Chambers so it can't be that crazy. I don't necessarily agree with it but he is definitely not alone in his viewpoint.

[jazzin']

Everyone should relax a little. If I told you guys about Mike Magnini's "shiver" technique you'd probably all call me crazy too. Yet the man has been doing it for years, has no callouses or tendonitis and is the fastest drummer on earth. So, who knows?

The fact is that what Jack here is describing is a technique uses by such legends as Tony Williams and Dennis Chambers so it can't be that crazy. I don't necessarily agree with it but he is definitely not alone in his viewpoint.

Indeed, but watching these guys play they definitely use a lot of rebound. In fact a lot of the points Tony made about his technique weren't that strict when he actually played (I actually remember an interview somewhere with him saying he wasn't always exactly sure what he did when he played, because he just played). You could see when he would do a continuous single stroke he would use what is being discussed here as the 'free stroke'. Letting the rebound do the work, only holding his sticks with his fulcrum in left hand and thumb and back two in right hand. All other fingers hardly even touching the sticks. Although I must say I thought your last post was brilliant Jeff. Perfect explanation of things.

But, I digress and this is getting overdone. Burnt even. No one is going to agree here or even relent on their viewpoints.

The internet is a funny thing. I'm sure in person we would all discuss this happily, swapping views and figuring things out with each other being happy to give and take. It's so difficult to figure out tones and the character in which something is said over a computer when of course in person you can see facial expressions and hear nuance in voice whether it's sarcasm, serious or tongue in cheek. It's difficult to write as you would speak over a computer.

Maybe we should let this one slide and agree to disagree.

[SEVNT7]

To Cactusjack, The baseball throw, golf swing, tennis serve, dribbling a ball. I guess all of these motions are against the laws of physics. The "Moeller Whip " is the same motion as the 1st three examples above, and dribbling is akin to "Gladstone" It is all under the laws of physics. We exist in the physical world. You can't do things in this world, and break the laws of physics or go against them. When Tiger Woods hits a ball with his driver, his ball speed is around 125 MPH, But it lands softly. Even if he hit strait up he still couldn't hit it high enough for it to come down at terminal velocity. If you drop a ball or a drumstick, it will not bounce back up to the drop point. You must add some type of momentum to get said object to return to, or past the original starting point. Moeller adds this momentum to the stick by speeding up the stroke to the point were the stick can go past the starting point of the stroke. Or control to add more rebound at lower highths (ie; accented Moeller triplets, one motion, three notes). I never said I didn't practice on pillows. I can see the benifit of that. But when you say and then continue to argue about the value and effectivenees of tried and true techniques such as Moeller etc... expect to be ridiculed. There are many more points that I could comment on, Like the free stroke. Or how Moeller helps motion around a drumset. Or how Moeller creats more rebound for rudiments so the can accually be played with less energy exerted than Gladstone. But since you say all of these techniques are a big waste of motion. I guess I'll quit playing after 35 years of study..........Later...

[DogBreath]

19 posts deleted for inappropriate language and personal insults. Too bad this is the best that some people can do when discussing differing points of view. How about just pretending that you actually have enough respect for this place to keep conversations from degrading to that level.

[Tutin]

19 posts deleted for inappropriate language and personal insults. Too bad this is the best that some people can do when discussing differing points of view. How about just pretending that you actually have enough respect for this place to keep conversations from degrading to that level.

Same, I was wondering why mine got deleted? It didn't have any bad language or anything did it?

[That Guy]

19 posts deleted for inappropriate language and personal insults. Too bad this is the best that some people can do when discussing differing points of view. How about just pretending that you actually have enough respect for this place to keep conversations from degrading to that level.

One of my post got deleted and I never once attacked anyone or used innapropriate language. I don't do that. Maybe it was a mistake.. your forgiven this time DB. Just this one time.. lol.

[centralzeke]

To Cactusjack, The baseball throw, golf swing, tennis serve, dribbling a ball. I guess all of these motions are against the laws of physics. The "Moeller Whip " is the same motion as the 1st three examples above, and dribbling is akin to "Gladstone" It is all under the laws of physics. We exist in the physical world. You can't do things in this world, and break the laws of physics or go against them. When Tiger Woods hits a ball with his driver, his ball speed is around 125 MPH, But it lands softly. Even if he hit strait up he still couldn't hit it high enough for it to come down at terminal velocity. If you drop a ball or a drumstick, it will not bounce back up to the drop point. You must add some type of momentum to get said object to return to, or past the original starting point. Moeller adds this momentum to the stick by speeding up the stroke to the point were the stick can go past the starting point of the stroke. Or control to add more rebound at lower highths (ie; accented Moeller triplets, one motion, three notes). I never said I didn't practice on pillows. I can see the benifit of that. But when you say and then continue to argue about the value and effectivenees of tried and true techniques such as Moeller etc... expect to be ridiculed. There are many more points that I could comment on, Like the free stroke. Or how Moeller helps motion around a drumset. Or how Moeller creats more rebound for rudiments so the can accually be played with less energy exerted than Gladstone. But since you say all of these techniques are a big waste of motion. I guess I'll quit playing after 35 years of study..........Later...

Um, this post pretty much sums it up..

[DogBreath]

One of my post got deleted and I never once attacked anyone or used innapropriate language. I don't do that. Maybe it was a mistake.. your forgiven this time DB. Just this one time.. lol.

Sometimes posts are deleted for quoting other posts that have been deleted, even if they then go on to use very nice language and make very good points. You have to understand that I'm not going to edit every single post (as I sometimes am asked to do by people who are less forgiving that you are). If it seems likely that a post is going to be deleted, don't quote it, or better yet just don't respond to it!

[ZildjianMan1023]

Sometimes posts are deleted for quoting other posts that have been deleted, even if they then go on to use very nice language and make very good points. You have to understand that I'm not going to edit every single post (as I sometimes am asked to do by people who are less forgiving that you are). If it seems likely that a post is going to be deleted, don't quote it, or better yet just don't respond to it!

i got a message for language.. i guess my true feelings far lars ulrich shouldnt be posted on this forum (sorry off topic) so i think im going to keep myself nice or if i need to make an "Agressive point" to keep it in reason

[DogBreath]

i got a message for language.. i guess my true feelings far lars ulrich shouldnt be posted on this forum (sorry off topic) so i think im going to keep myself nice or if i need to make an "Agressive point" to keep it in reason
No, your true feelings for anyone shouldn't be posted on this forum if you need to resort to language that a 12-year-old would know not to use. You only embarrass yourself and if it happens again you'll be banned. Did you really feel like it was necessary to bring it up in this thread?

[ZildjianMan1023]

No, your true feelings for anyone shouldn't be posted on this forum if you need to resort to language that a 12-year-old would know not to use. You only embarrass yourself and if it happens again you'll be banned. Did you really feel like it was necessary to bring it up in this thread?

i did actually, i mean im not trying to get myself banned thats just a dumb move on my own.. but i guess since deleted posts got thrown into the mix and language i figured id just throw in my two cents.. which probably add up too nothing man, i feel dumb...

[ZildjianMan1023]

i mean 99.9% of my posts are clean i just seriously lost it in that ulrich thread

[ZildjianMan1023]

SO!!! does anyone have anything else relevant to the moeller tecnhique?

[Tim Waterson]

hey guys.. recently ive heard about the moler technique.. i know how to do it i just want to know the benefits of this technique
Heres a clip explaining WHY I use Moller
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9ivpfTjXeg
Tim

[Legacyrik]

You don't seem to have good reading comprehension.
I never said that practicing on a pillow is the only way to practice,
and I never said it was my theory. Please quote me where I did.
You are misreading what I said and your response doesn't seem
to be to what I've actually written.

I use Buddy as an example because he is a virtuoso and an example to us all,
Dennis on the other hand has many times stated that he was told at a young age by Buddy to practice on a pillow. that's why I bring him up. They both have fast single strokes
and strong wrists and playing single strokes is all I've talked about so far.
I'm still waiting for that musical example of how and why to use a full stroke
and it's supposed advantage. Did you read my question about playing a backbeat?
I'm still waiting for the technique discussion to begin, why not answer my questions?
Is this not a forum for discussing technique??


OMG, I haven't gotten through the whole thread yet so if someone has put this guy in his place already, sorry.

First off, I can't help but think YOU are refering to the Free Stroke. You keep talking of holding sticks in the air like you just don't care... :) Free stroke you practice hitting the drum from the "up" position. NOW, the reason you do this is to learn how to let the stick rebound.... Really it's a means to an end, not a final technique....

To me this is way different than Moeller which is the end result. Like most people say, it's really a natural motion and just another technique to produce a different sound.

single strokes using wrist and fingers are great...

learning Moeller for single strokes is great...

You need to shut up and start paying attention.

[Legacyrik]

Everyone should relax a little. If I told you guys about Mike Magnini's "shiver" technique you'd probably all call me crazy too. Yet the man has been doing it for years, has no callouses or tendonitis and is the fastest drummer on earth. So, who knows?

The fact is that what Jack here is describing is a technique uses by such legends as Tony Williams and Dennis Chambers so it can't be that crazy. I don't necessarily agree with it but he is definitely not alone in his viewpoint.

Definately, nothing wrong with using wrists and fingers but even then this kid is just saying to let the stick drop.. His teaching is wrong any way. Add to it the fact that he is so narrow minded.....

As far as Mike, I'm sure he's not so quick to write off different techniques:)

[cducar]

I don't get how this stroke is any better than a normal hit of a drum...?

[somedrummer]

Study it a little bit, have a teacher walk you through it, and you will understand. I promise you, you will understand.

[That Guy]

Hi cducar. Have you ever watched or seen a drummer break the moeller technique down? You made an interesting statement when you said... "I don't get how this stroke is any better than a normal hit of a drum...?"

Without getting too intimate, the Moeller technique allows you to hit the drum 2 to 4 times more within a single stroke. It allows you to create more sound, and fill the measure.

Lets keep it simple my friends, don't throw the last 50 years of drumming at him... lol

[Kroy]

I've seen several explanations of the Moeller system on the web. All have a different flavour but they seem to imply the MS is just about speed. That is NOT NOT NOT the case!!!

I speak as someone who studied the MS with one of the UK's top educators: Bob Armstrong.

The MS will totally revolutionise the way you play IF you study it properly with a good teacher. It will take at least 18 months (on average) to really start to soak into your general playing.

It will internalise your playing INTO your body. You will play with more FEEL than ever before. It will develop an internal continuum in you whilst you play. An inner invisible circular motion: perpetual motion. This will improve your TIME immensely. Particularly your ability to play at really slow tempos (so overlooked) will improve.

Your ability to play accents will improve by 3000%. Your jazz time feel will start to take shape. Your ability to play such hihat feels as the Lope will drastically improve.

The MS is like a soft martial art as applied to drumming.

Sanford Moeller refused to teach it at one point saying that naturally gifted players would play like that anyway. But don't make the mistake of thinking/hoping you are one of those if you are not! If you need to work at it with a teacher, you need to work at it with a teacher.

Take a chance!

[balboa]

I don't get how this stroke is any better than a normal hit of a drum...?

it isnt any better...its just a preference for some drummers. there is no such thing as "better" when it comes to personal taste and expression

[jonescrusher]

it isnt any better...its just a preference for some drummers. there is no such thing as "better" when it comes to personal taste and expression


hmmm, i'd have to disagree. It is possible to be objective about htis when it comes to aspects of technique. The points kroy made are all spot on. Incorporate the system into your playing and you will, objectively, be a better player, primarily in technique, and thus in musical expression.

[balboa]

the key word is "objectively". objectively you could be better. i use moeller, but to say im better than before i used it....objectively perhaps

[Raymond Bloom]

The difference between a Moeller stroke and a normal stroke is that all the inertia and power is gained from the movement not muscles! It's one of the most natural and relaxed techniques ever

Moeller method is all about accents, if you want to play a solid single stroke roll without any accents Moeller technique is not what you need for this purpose

[jonescrusher]

the key word is "objectively". objectively you could be better. i use moeller, but to say im better than before i used it....objectively perhaps

Well, yes. Quite. So if we've clarified that employing the moeller system objectively betters a drummer, then a moeller stroke is better than a regular stroke.

Anyway, I can't think of a single reason for an intermediate to advanced level student not to be taught it.

[Legacyrik]

the key word is "objectively". objectively you could be better. i use moeller, but to say im better than before i used it....objectively perhaps

You gained an additional technique to use... Nothing subjective about that. you are better for it.

[Legacyrik]

The difference between a Moeller stroke and a normal stroke is that all the inertia and power is gained from the movement not muscles! It's one of the most natural and relaxed techniques ever

Moeller method is all about accents, if you want to play a solid single stroke roll without any accents Moeller technique is not what you need for this purpose

thank you!
202020202020

[That Guy]

The MS will totally revolutionise the way you play IF you study it properly with a good teacher. It will take at least 18 months (on average) to really start to soak into your general playing.

It will internalise your playing INTO your body. You will play with more FEEL than ever before. It will develop an internal continuum in you whilst you play. An inner invisible circular motion: perpetual motion. This will improve your TIME immensely. Particularly your ability to play at really slow tempos (so overlooked) will improve!

Nicely put Kroy. I can't add or take away from your comment.

[Jimothy]

Moeller will definetly improve you if you can apply it. As said, it takes time and effort to incorporate it to your playing. It's worth the effort though!

[Kroy]

I'd like to know what experience people who make comments about their use of the Moeller in their playing have had. Particularly where people are... perhaps a little 'elusive' when asked if it's improved their playing.

How long did you study it for?

Who with? (and what was the teacher's history and experience with the MS)

What were you shown?

(In my case I studied it with two teachers for a total of three years. The first teacher was a student of the first, and the second teacher was Bob Armstrong, who I understand was taught the MS by one of Sanford Moeller's students. My answaer to the question, did it improve my playing is... Yes! yes! yes! By 30000%!)

[balboa]

yes!!! i am "better" than i was before, from learning the moeller, but its all relative, moeller would not be better in acdc though, but i do understand what u mean. i have been trying to develop it for the last several years or so on my own...or by watching vids. im very anal about technique and taking things slow. i live in a small area, not many moeller players, let alone drummers, unless i went to the college a few miles away. its a great technique, and im glad i have been able to harness it in my playing, however mastering it will take a life time

[Kroy]

All the vids I've seen about the moeller (and I admit I haven't watched all of Jim Chapin's movie) only seem to cover a small area, and certainly very little of the great stuff I was taught. If you'd received the same exposure, you might not make the AC/DC comment. But let me explain that.

Pretty early on in my training I was taught to use the MS in a Rock groove.

Here's the most basic example of this application:

Basic Rock Groove:
Hi hat plays 8ths 1+2+3+4+
Snare on 2 & 4
Kick on 1 & 3

Moeller hand movements:
HiHat: T U D T T U D T
Snare - (U) D - - (U) D -

Legend:
T = Tapstroke (not like Jim Chapin's tapstroke - this is more like a ghost stroke - stick height from drum only 1cm max)
U = Upstroke
(U) = left hand makes upstroke movement with right handed, but doesn't actually play a stroke)
D= Downstroke (accent)

This will give you a real 'slam you in the face' rock groove, very Phil Rudd.

Now check the way Phil Rudd's playing at 2.52 in this you tube movie (the left hand movement playing the backbeat is very Moeller, like the (U) D in my illiustration):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW5E6x5KtdU

[Kroy]

correction:

(U) = left hand makes upstroke movement in unison with right hand, but doesn't actually play a stroke on the drum before coming up.

[Raymond Bloom]

How long did you study it for?

Since 2004

Who with? (and what was the teacher's history and experience with the MS)

Jojo Mayer

What were you shown?

Basically everything he shows at his new dvd, all the positions, heights, movements etc

[drumbandit]

The difference between a Moeller stroke and a normal stroke is that all the inertia and power is gained from the movement not muscles! It's one of the most natural and relaxed techniques ever

Moeller method is all about accents, if you want to play a solid single stroke roll without any accents Moeller technique is not what you need for this purpose

Totally agree, it's so relaxed and I don't think I can even do it properly yet. But whatever I'm doing feels far more relaxed and has improved my playing somewhat.

Tom

[Kroy]

What a privilege to study with JoJo Mayer, Raymond. What country does he teach in? I think I'll probably have to get his DVD - it looks great.

Thanks for providing that info...

[jonescrusher]

To answer you enquiry Kroy, I learnt the fundamentals of the system under the guidance of Adam Bushell at Brighton Institute of Modern Music. The first term was spent studying it intensively, and all other lessons were looked at from the perspective of the technique.
The four basic strokes were studied and then applied to various sticking patterns and rudiments, eg. accented singles and doubles, flams, drags, HH/RC ostinatos.

[Raymond Bloom]

What a privilege to study with JoJo Mayer, Raymond. What country does he teach in? I think I'll probably have to get his DVD - it looks great.

Thanks for providing that info...
It was just one clinic with him and a some consultations, but it was enough for me to undersnatd the concept and get into the position where I know what's the goal and how to reach it!

ps. I'd say, since his dvd came out, all the hand technique discussions should be closed, because every question has just one answer - watch Jojo's dvd :-)

[Legacyrik]

All the vids I've seen about the moeller (and I admit I haven't watched all of Jim Chapin's movie) only seem to cover a small area, and certainly very little of the great stuff I was taught. If you'd received the same exposure, you might not make the AC/DC comment. But let me explain that.

Pretty early on in my training I was taught to use the MS in a Rock groove.

Here's the most basic example of this application:

Basic Rock Groove:
Hi hat plays 8ths 1+2+3+4+
Snare on 2 & 4
Kick on 1 & 3

Moeller hand movements:
HiHat: T U D T T U D T
Snare - (U) D - - (U) D -

Legend:
T = Tapstroke (not like Jim Chapin's tapstroke - this is more like a ghost stroke - stick height from drum only 1cm max)
U = Upstroke
(U) = left hand makes upstroke movement with right handed, but doesn't actually play a stroke)
D= Downstroke (accent)

This will give you a real 'slam you in the face' rock groove, very Phil Rudd.

Now check the way Phil Rudd's playing at 2.52 in this you tube movie (the left hand movement playing the backbeat is very Moeller, like the (U) D in my illiustration):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW5E6x5KtdU

You beat me to this. The "simple" application of Moeller in this type of hi-hat work can be used a ton. Just try to do eight notes on the hi-hat alternating first the tip on the top of the hat then coming down with the shoulder of the stick on the edge. Really at higher tempos you almost have to use the Moeller technique...

Many people think of Moeller as an advanced technique, and maybe they are right but on the other hand some things that will become almost fundamental in normal play will depend on it. Almost makes it a basic technique in my mind.. But not the only technique.....

[fijjibo]

So many arguments......

Well, If anyone cares what I think, here it is:

Moeller is a nice thing to use.

But its not life or death.

You can get by perfectly well whether you use Moeller, Free stroke, or any technique on the face of our planet.

Just as long as your not hampering your playing or health.

[jonescrusher]

So many arguments......

Well, If anyone cares what I think, here it is:

Moeller is a nice thing to use.

But its not life or death.

You can get by perfectly well whether you use Moeller, Free stroke, or any technique on the face of our planet.

Just as long as your not hampering your playing or health.



....and you'll always be not quite as good as you otherwise would be. The fact is, unless you have some natural ability and naturally assimilate the system into your playing, learning Moeller is essential to moving to the next level.

[fijjibo]

....and you'll always be not quite as good as you otherwise would be. The fact is, unless you have some natural ability and naturally assimilate the system into your playing, learning Moeller is essential to moving to the next level.

Not unless you want to learn it.

You dont have to if you dont want to.

On another plane however, I agree with you that it is a useful tool to have.

[jonescrusher]

Not unless you want to learn it.

You dont have to if you dont want to.

On another plane however, I agree with you that it is a useful tool to have.



I agree, many drummers will be happy with whatever range of skills and tone they have and won't be especially driven to improve. I think that a lot of drummers do want to reach a higher level, but they don't know what's missing. That's where the Moeller system comes in. On top of that though, a lot, especially in this age of internet resource, attempt to teach themselves and only pick up one or two aspects, thereby missing the fundamentals. That's why these Moeller thread become epic.

[aydee]

Ok, heres my problem. I play Moellerish!

By that, I mean I use a whippy motion and rebound in my playing, even though its not techincally Moeller

Now,after many years, I've decided to go back to a teacher ( Berklee grad), who is trying to get me to change my grip to holding the right stick with by bottom 3 fingers, my index finger almost off the stick, and hes re-adjusted my thumb to a more top -on position.

I'm finding this extremely hard to do.The stick keeps flying out of my hand. Even though there is more rebound in this stroke, it feels restrictive and un natural.

Is there more than one grip Moeller? Am I being too impatient?

[KONA]

Ok, heres my problem. I play Moellerish!

By that, I mean I use a whippy motion and rebound in my playing, even though its not techincally Moeller

Now,after many years, I've decided to go back to a teacher ( Berklee grad), who is trying to get me to change my grip to holding the right stick with by bottom 3 fingers, my index finger almost off the stick, and hes re-adjusted my thumb to a more top -on position.

I'm finding this extremely hard to do.The stick keeps flying out of my hand. Even though there is more rebound in this stroke, it feels restrictive and un natural.

Is there more than one grip Moeller? Am I being too impatient?

I think Jim Chapin sumed it up beautifully here.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/jimchapinwisewords.html

I love practicing too - I have have fun with it. Some of the styles/methods probably won't feel right for me. I'm not saying to improve on "bad habits - and make bad habits worse, if you know what I mean - we all can use constructive coaching" but one person's method may not be perfect for everyone.

It's nice to practice and learn all this stuff - some of us are better than others for sure. Just look at Billy Cobham play - he's a master - look at the way he holds his sticks.

I enjoyed reading this thread - very interesting and informative.

Happy drumming

[JacobKaye]

Jacob, I like your style, very easy going, and pleasant. Very important for a teacher, and you cant buy it for money!

About technique, from what Dom taught me, I feel you are straining your right wrist a bit, what I call keyboard wrist. Dom always accentuates that the wrist should be straight. Just thought I would comment, since you asked for comments.
Regards, DPS

Dr,

Seems as long as the wrist position avoids a consistent bend and happens infrequently (not as a habit) ...shouldn't be a problem.

[balboa]

All the vids I've seen about the moeller (and I admit I haven't watched all of Jim Chapin's movie) only seem to cover a small area, and certainly very little of the great stuff I was taught. If you'd received the same exposure, you might not make the AC/DC comment. But let me explain that.

Pretty early on in my training I was taught to use the MS in a Rock groove.

Here's the most basic example of this application:

Basic Rock Groove:
Hi hat plays 8ths 1+2+3+4+
Snare on 2 & 4
Kick on 1 & 3

Moeller hand movements:
HiHat: T U D T T U D T
Snare - (U) D - - (U) D -

Legend:
T = Tapstroke (not like Jim Chapin's tapstroke - this is more like a ghost stroke - stick height from drum only 1cm max)
U = Upstroke
(U) = left hand makes upstroke movement with right handed, but doesn't actually play a stroke)
D= Downstroke (accent)

This will give you a real 'slam you in the face' rock groove, very Phil Rudd.

Now check the way Phil Rudd's playing at 2.52 in this you tube movie (the left hand movement playing the backbeat is very Moeller, like the (U) D in my illiustration):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW5E6x5KtdU

you are totally correct, assuming phil rudd (acdc) uses it...but it can be used in their music or any simple rhythm...i guess i just havent recieved the same exposure as you have

[Bosphorus]

Time to revieve th thread!
a quick question for ye all!........although i can execute the moeller technique and the galdstone method....i sometimes start to drift into combining the two.....which completly defies the ideaology behind the moeller stroke...
but i was just wondering has anyone done the same, but has come up with some sort of a hybrid method, that might be jus as efficiant??

i am just curious about things like these

[Deltadrummer]

Time to revieve th thread!
a quick question for ye all!........although i can execute the moeller technique and the galdstone method....i sometimes start to drift into combining the two.....which completly defies the ideaology behind the moeller stroke...
but i was just wondering has anyone done the same, but has come up with some sort of a hybrid method, that might be jus as efficiant??

i am just curious about things like these

Yes, the big difference is that in the Moeller you are engaging the arm and it does not rely on rebound. In Moeller, the arm moves in the pseudo- karate (paint the fence) motion known as the whipping motion, with down stroke/whip and upstroke/pull out. It does not rely on rebound. But once the pumping motion happens (DS-tap-tap-PO), you are using the rebound for the tap and that is arguable where the overlap happens.

In the Freestroke, not Gladstone technique: it's actually GL Stone technique, the wrist is moving from a stationary arm in a downward motion and then rebound. The Stone technique eliminates an upstroke; the rebound is the upstroke. I am sure that most people who use Moeller, use a combination of various strokes depending on the effect that one wants or the technique need of what one is executing. For example, if you are not generating an accent, there is no need for Moeller.

[Bosphorus]

either way...anyone in this thread who doesnt know how to do the two of these methods or either of them, i reccomend you learn them!
when you come to these methods it is like you are at a crossroad in your drum education...you can choose not to learn them thinking that they cannot help, or actually spent the time to carefully learn them and be able to incorporate them into your playing....moeller isnt just a way technique, it is a whole new way of playing (along with the gladstone method)....you can even encorporate them into playing slow grooves to give them that bit of UMPH!!!

believe me, the road that takes you through these techniques is much longer,but also more dense than the other ones!
really, every good or great drummer knows these techniques

like I advise anybody to go and see Mr.Kaye's videos on youtube.....they show how effortless the strokes can be and how fast....you are a great drumer Jacob!

Cheers

[mikeveny]

I don't know if anyone has used it, but I recently checked out Moeller Method Secrets (http://mikeveny.com/dvds/moellermethod.html). It's a great supplement to the book, It's Your Move: Motions and Emotions (http://www.kqzyfj.com/te105lnwtnvADECCFJJACBFICCDH?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. sheetmusicplus.com%2Fa%2Fcj.html%3Fe%3Di%26t%3D396 0331&cjsku=3960331), which might be one of the most detailed texts on the Moeller technique.

Check out my review of Moeller Method Secrets (http://mikeveny.com/video-drum-lessons/moeller-technique/moeller-method-secrets).

Let me know what you think.