Comparible learning - Beginner-Expert

[positive vibe merchant]

Hi Everyone, long time listener first time caller.

Firstly I would like to say (sorry for the following essay) thank you to everyone who contributes to this website in all it's facets. This is the largest collection of advice/enducation/information for drummers I have come across, and it is really a great help personally for me. I really happy that there is no pretention amongst the better drummers which I have found can be a problem.

I would classify myself as an advanced beginner, been playing live for a few years, can hold a beat, and have good time. My issue though since being mainly self taught, is that my technique has lacked, even though it feels right to me, I do know now that it is incorrect, and needs to be changed.

There are so many different techniques that I now know that I need to learn to become the drummer I wish to be, and I really am not sure where to start. The feet, the hands, the fingers, breathing, stretching, not to mention rudiments and the aspects of playing.

As a beginner, is someone able to help me along my path? I am basically looking for some type of guide to what should be learned from the beginning, the basics, right through as a plan to possibly an advanced level. Maybe get an idea of what you all have learned and and what order.

I am looking to start lessons, but I want to go in with a clear knowledge if what i am needing, and wanting to learn and that it is at my skill level.
If there are other posts relating to this, I apologise for the waste of time.
Anyone that can give me advice, or help in any way, shape or form, I will gladly take to it, and thank you all in advance for taking to time out to read this lengthy post :)

M@

[finnhiggins]

Firstly, you need to separate out issues of technique (the "how") from material (the "what"). Most self-taught people I've encountered have a better grasp on what they want to play than how to go about playing it.

Now, as for the "How" part... this is something I've actually been considering pulling a Derek and doing a video about for a little while, I just need to borrow a camcorder for a while. While there are plenty of videos out there explaining things like the free stroke, the one-handed roll, heel-toe technique, slide technique and god knows what else, the one thing that I would find most difficult to get from the publically available content is what you're describing - a cohesive big picture. Teachers are usually the best place to go for this, but I'll try to give you an idea of what I consider important, technically speaking.

Phase 1: Understanding rebound. This is where you start learning about grips and the "Free stroke". You need to choose a grip - I'd suggest either matched French or German, personally I tend to advocate German unless the student has a pronounced preference. At this phase the first stuff you'd work on would be simple things like single stroke rolls (both RLRL and LRLR) and basic stuff out of Stick Control - no accenting, everything flat-dynamic. Practice at this stage is all about working from the wrist - no arms, no fingers yet - and maintaining a solid but relaxed grip through the whole hand so that you're not just gripping with one or two fingers.

Phase 2: Understanding accents. This is where you start learning about Moeller and Gladstone techniques, or whipping versus straight up-and-down accenting techniques. Be careful here - there's a couple of different version of Moeller being taught. The technically proper one as described by Jim Chapin is the one you'll see Derek describing in his videos on this site, but it's actually the one I use less. The other is a more widely separated one which involves killing the rebound on the down stroke to get a bigger dynamic difference between accents and unaccented notes. The Gladstone technique is also essential to learn at this stage to some degree, because without it you're not going to have much luck with stuff involving a lot of full strokes (= consecutive accents with the same hand). At this stage you'll be starting to introduce arm movements with the Moeller whipping technique, and you'll be in a position to start practicing basic accenting patterns (I like getting people reading stuff out of Syncopation over 16th note singles and pulling out accents!). Again, not much in the way of fingers involved here, and you'll generally want the whole hand gripping the stick loosely.

Phase 3: Applying to the kit. After you get through the first two phases on a pad or snare you need to start applying it in a kit context. This is a question of taking patterns like the Syncopation reading exercises or some stickings from Stick Control and trying to play them around different surfaces on the kit as fills, while keeping a clear eye on technical execution. It's also a good stage to start applying moeller motion to your 8th-note hi-hat patterns to enable you to get more articulate hi-hat lines and play in a more relaxed manner.

Phase 4: Bass drum techniques. There's lots of options here and I could write a whole article on the subject, so I'll leave this for later. But suffice to say this is the part where you start working on formal foot techniques isolated from your other limbs, and working on reading parts with the foot alone.

Phase 5: Applying bass drum technique to the kit. This is where you repeat Phase 3, while trying to fit the formal techniques learned with both hands and feet together without forgetting the correct movements. This is a good point to start studying a lot of co-ordinational combinations because it'll help you track down technique "bugs" and fix them so that your movements remain consistent regardless of what your other limbs are doing.

Phase 6: Fingers and double strokes. This is where you start bringing fingers into play to get improved speed in single stroke rolls, it's also where I start getting German grip players to start learning French and practicing smooth transitions between the two. And as part of this finger-training routine there's also some detailed work on double stroke rolls, which are another good place to practice your finger control if you want to get them sounding even.

Once you're through all of that to a reasonable degree of technical compentency then you've got the core of your playing which you can build on. After this the "what" starts to become a lot more important than the "how", and you start making technical decisions based on things like sound and musical approach.

[NUTHA JASON]

great post finn. one of the best.

i'm in a similar position to you m@. i'm all self taught but have been drumming for nearly 17 years without breaks. DW forum which i have been involved with for 3 years now really opened my eyes to what was possible and what i was missing. realistically there is too much to learn ...let's face it. i like using analogy...so... drumming is like engineering/mechanics. few people on the planet can use any and every tool from every facet of engineering and mechanics to the full and proper use of each said tool. a bike mechanic is not likely to be able to use the tools of a ship builder properly nor a mining engineer to know each tool of the watchsmith. some tools are very similar and so simple that anyone could use them (screw drivers and hammers for example) but others are specific or at such scales that they are unweildy for allbut the trained expert.
so it is with drumming. to a certain extent we must be generally able but it is advisable (especially if we are limited to less than 7 hours a week practice time) to focus on an area of drumming. the jazz drummer needn't learn double bass drumming for example...certainly not before they have learned the standard forms and ostinatos of jazz.
to sum all this up, you and i and others in similar circumstances have to consider mastering a selection of chops...in my case i give approximately 80% of my time to them...and pick up the other bits as they come. it is a matter of taste.

last year i started d/bass for the first time but now i am all into heel toe and so i am back onto focussing on single pedal technique. and tho i am going over all my rudiments again i am doing no ostinatos and no latin style grooves. that is me at the moment...next year or in three i may be all latin... who knows. the point is for a few months i will focus on a small area that 'needs filling and refining' ...and so my collection of tools grows.

j

[Auger]

I think you're on the right track looking for a teacher and wanting to go back to basics. If you find someone who you're confident is a good/qualified instructor, I'd say your best bet is to go in with a totally open mind and let them guide you -at least in terms of technique. It's a different story when you've studied before and been playing for a long time and have a specific issue you want to work on or thing you want to learn. But,in my opinion, if you're a somewhat less studied drummer it's better to go to the teacher and say "I want to learn the basics ...what do I need to learn?" than to say "This is what I want you to teach me." Of course, this approach is very dependent on having a good teacher -so ask about qualifications and experience and trust your gut when you go for your first few lessons.


But, that being said, don't forget that technique is really only a means to an end. J's tool analogy is a great one! A lot of people make the mistake of equating 'having good technique' with 'being a good drummer.' In my opinion there's little or no connection between the two. Having a lot of tools doesn't make you a good carpenter. That being said, I'm not even going to even think about opening the 'what makes a good drummer' can of worms here because, there's no simple answer. I'm also not devaluing technique -it's invaluable and I've spent/spend a lot of time developing it personally. It's hard to be a carpenter *without* tools as well. But I think, if you want to make a long term plan as you say, it's also good to think at least as much about what you want to achieve as a musician outisde of terms of technique.

Find Inspiration. Think about musicians you admire -not just drummers- and what draws you to their music and their playing. Think about communication and getting through to people in lots of life circumstances and what you like about art in general -even things like movies or books or whatever else may grab you and try to find inspiration and ways to bring that to your playing. Never let go of what makes you feel passionate about playing. Never let someone make you feel 'wrong' for liking what you like about drumming or liking the music you do. A good teacher will never do this.

Be Yourself. It sounds silly, but you always should remember to be yourself and not abandon this to try and be what you think is considered "correct" as a drummer. I noticed you describe a lot of what you do as "incorrect" and "needing to be changed" -maybe you are holding yourself back from saying what you want to say by your limited technique, so I'm not going to say "you shouldn't think that" --but if you like the sounds your making and you're having fun and nothing hurts, just go with it! Or, at least, you don't have to throw it away if you want to re-vamp your technique. Think of your new "correct" way of playing as another tool and it doesn't mean you have to loose the old one.

Anyway, sorry if this is abstract and sounds all new-age-y, but I thought I'd chime in because these are often overlooked points. haha, and no need to apologize for the long post.

[samthebeat]

Firstly, you need to separate out issues of technique (the "how") from material (the "what"). Most self-taught people I've encountered have a better grasp on what they want to play than how to go about playing it.
.

thanks for the post, the big picture was just what i needed to hear right now, phases, I love phases. It's made everything what im learning make sense, and where it starts and where ends.Its great to see a post with an answer to such a huge question. Thanks for taking the time.

[positive vibe merchant]

I would like to say thanks to each of you for your wisdom and kind words. That analogy really made life very simple for me Jason, thank you. Nothing like stripping it all back to find what's real :)

it is alot to take in, but now I have more insight and direction than I did before. I am on the hunt for a teacher at the moment, but for me I have to connect with them on a personal basis as well as drumming. itis really important for me personally, to have them listen to me, and guide me rather than strictly teach me what I need to know. I am more than willing to put in as much time as possible to make myself a more skilled refined drummer, but I do need guidance.

I don't know how many others feel the same, but I don't know why drums chose me. Only now am I beginning to understand that drumming is my gift to the world, and without getting, as Auger said, "new-age-y" it is part of my soul. As fragile as playing on stage is, it is a great strength in giving to other people and changing peoples lifes.

Sorry for the essay ocne again. if anoyone else has somethign else to add, please do. I would love to hear comments/thoughts/ideas to help me, and anyone else who fins this post slong their journey.
Stay Positive
Love your Life
M@

[Stu_Strib]

Hey Vibemerchant, welcome to the forum! I commend your humble approach and think you are well on your way (and probably a better player than you think!)

Finn did a great job and I'm gonna expand on that by focusing on the first two. Basically, stick control is the #1 most important skill any drummer can have. Without stick control, we are basically no different than apes pounding logs with sticks ;-)

So, to get started:

Get a private instructor that will start you with a pair of sticks and a practice pad only. Forget drumset for a couple of months!

Prepare yourself for practice pad sessions by going to Vic Firth's web site, and start with the great instructor they have on there, Mark Wessels (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/wessels_beginner-lessons.html). I don't have the book/video, but based on the samples on there, I would highly recommend that to ANY drummer, not just beginners. Lesson #1 is quite possible the most important bit of information any self-taught drummer should know!

If you can't read music, then work through the Norm Weinberg Web Rhythms (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/features/webrhythms/intro.html) section. It gets hard pretty fast though, so just focus on the easier ones until you get it down. Also, the navigation is weird on that page (use the drop down box in the upper right corner).

I stress the importance of basic reading because you can learn so much more so much faster if you take lessons and you can read music. You also possess greater self-regulated learning skills when you can read and work out of books.

Once you have the stick control down pretty good, start tackling the 40 Essential Rudiments (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments.html). I would suggest you focus most on those rudiments that will improve your drumset technique and have applicability to the kit. At a minimum:

The single stroke rolls
The 5, 6, 9 stroke rolls
Flam, Flam Accent, Flam Tap, Flamadiddle (flam paradiddle), and Swiss Army triplets
Single and double paradiddles

For sure try the other ones too, but these ones above I've seen really help reinforce and develop stick control, speed and fluidity across the kit. Flams are very critical, because something as simple as a flam totally changes the sound of a simple stroke, and opens your playing and makes it more dynamic and musical.

The single strokes are something I still do every day for several minutes, as well as the double strokes. You can NEVER get these good enough! Paradiddles and double paradiddles are good, because every trick and lick you see on the net now days seem to be based in single paradiddles (4/4 music) and double paras (6/8 music). Plus, these just help build overall coordination making new concepts, like inverted paradiddles easier when you encounter them.

I'm sure there are hundreds of other sites out there, but I really just love the vic firth one, because of the little metronome tracking audio file...If you don't have a metronome, you can use their site!

Good luck, and don't forget the practice pad!!!!!

[Wile E. Coyote]

Firstly, you need to separate out issues of technique (the "how") from material (the "what"). Most self-taught people I've encountered have a better grasp on what they want to play than how to go about playing it. (...)
Good job Finn! What a nice post!
I like to see that there's still people on the Earth, talking about useful things that we all do, and not pretending to make a master class on the Heel and Toe or the one handed roll (that you'll never use!!!)
What else can be said?

[Davidb59]

Good job Finn! What a nice post!
I like to see that there's still people on the Earth, talking about useful things that we all do, and not pretending to make a master class on the Heel and Toe or the one handed roll (that you'll never use!!!)
What else can be said?

Does that mean that you don't rate the videos posted by Derek Pope? Whilst a one handed roll is way beyond me as a newbie I found his Moeller video and bass pedal video very helpful.

[Stu_Strib]

I think Wile was just expressing his frustration with how many threads focus on tricks and gimmicks instead of musicality. That's how I read it at least, and I concur, mostly.

Derricks videos are great even though I have to admit, I don't incorporate much of it into my playing.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

One thing that may help, and it is something I learned while getting my teaching degree, is known as the whole-part-whole method, and the converse, the part-whole-part method. Just as the names imply you can try to learn a new task all at once then break it down into parts, then practice the whole thing. Or you can learn parts at a time, practice the whole thing, then practice and refine the parts again. My degree is in Kinesiology, or as the old school would call it Physical Education, and we had to learn to teach in both methods because you will find students that have a grasp on what they are doing so they can try the whole-part-whole method, and then you have those that are very basic and raw and need to learn the parts, then practice the whole, then refine the parts again. Try this approach in your drumming efforts and see which method works best for you. Best of luck..

[Wile E. Coyote]

I think Wile was just expressing his frustration with how many threads focus on tricks and gimmicks instead of musicality. That's how I read it at least, and I concur, mostly.

Derricks videos are great even though I have to admit, I don't incorporate much of it into my playing.
That's why I love you Stu
LOL

[djp132]

I agree with all this actually.

Thats why my last few videos have gotten away from the gimmicks, which i do consider them myself to a large degree, and focusing on things like clean doubles, musicality, and counting.

[Legacyrik]

I'm no pro, but I'm working hard and here are some of my thoughts.

Like me you have a technique problem so as suggested, concentrate on exactly that. Currently I spend probably 90% of my time working on just two or three drill on both my hands and then my feet. Now I massage the drills to make them interesting and give me knew focus.

The drills are:

8 on a hand/foot using different dynamics, sometimes doing 8th note triplets instead of 8th notes. Working into single stroke rolls. One dirivative of this is to being doing the 8th notes on one hand and then on alternating bars bust into 16th notes, focusing on the "lead" hand that it keeps the same feel.

The other one is the 8 and 4 or whatever it's called which is to help you with conrolling dynamics. Again this starts out singularly a hand at a time but you can then take it to the next level using both, doubling the speed.

Also, you will hear a lot of people saying don't use bass drum early on, learn right first. I don't agree with that AT ALL. It is doing wonders for my feet coordination. Just because you do drills on a double bass doesn't mean it has to equate to straight rolls in your playing.

[jazzsnob]

Man, I can't really say anything better than what finn started with. I'm gonna copy that and keep it for when I start teaching ten years down the road.


The only advice I can add is simply this:be THOROUGH. Obsessivly thorough. Once you start working on something, work on it till it's effortless. Don't choose too many things to practice at once(challenging, I know full well) and WORK the items you choose to practice. The ONLY way to get a professional sound.

Good luck man, you have an awesome attitude, which is why all those good teachers are responding to your query.

[jazzin']

Great posts by everyone. To follow the phases set out Finn would be a a very good way to go.
I thought I would add something by expanding a little on what Jazzsnob said about being thorough in your practice. Just a few little keys points to keep in mind about practice. This is not in reference to actual technical facility and such but more on the idea of the mind set of practice.
INTENTION: always be very clear on what you are doing and trying to achieve with your practice.
INSIGHT: this is very important, so you are able to see things clearly and be honest with yourself about your practice and where you are at with it.
MINDFULNESS: again, very important in being able to retain your insight. Being mindful of what you have set out to achieve so you are still focused down the track is a great help in not straying off down paths that could hinder you.
PATIENCE: As jazzsnob said, to be thorough is the most important aspect of practice. Without it you will never have a true solid grasp and understanding of what you are doing/playing. To have or learn patience is absolutely necessary in learning to master music. It is a long journey.

These are just a few thoughts I had been having lately about practice. There is a lot that can make you feel overwhelmed. All the different things (speed or no speed, groove or no groove) and techniques (moeller, freestroke, heel toe, heel up, heel down, fingers, gladstone, push pull, open close ahhhhhhhh) so many people think is necessary and all the possible directions you can take can often seem too much. To keep these small points in mind will hopefully help you along the way to your goals and remember, as John Scofield once said 'you can learn all the aspects of music but you can't learn them all at once'. Take it slowly, learn one part at a time, thoroughly, don't listen to all the rubbish of having to learn a thousand different techniques in a week and getting as fast as Matt Smith in a day. It can't be done. It can be done though with hard, focused patient practice just as those guys did.
Well, anyway, I hope that wasn't too much or too serious sounding, after all music is fun. Express yourself and always be positive.

[a1DrummerT]

Hi Everyone, long time listener first time caller.

Firstly I would like to say (sorry for the following essay) thank you to everyone who contributes to this website in all it's facets. This is the largest collection of advice/enducation/information for drummers I have come across, and it is really a great help personally for me. I really happy that there is no pretention amongst the better drummers which I have found can be a problem.

I would classify myself as an advanced beginner, been playing live for a few years, can hold a beat, and have good time. My issue though since being mainly self taught, is that my technique has lacked, even though it feels right to me, I do know now that it is incorrect, and needs to be changed.

There are so many different techniques that I now know that I need to learn to become the drummer I wish to be, and I really am not sure where to start. The feet, the hands, the fingers, breathing, stretching, not to mention rudiments and the aspects of playing.

As a beginner, is someone able to help me along my path? I am basically looking for some type of guide to what should be learned from the beginning, the basics, right through as a plan to possibly an advanced level. Maybe get an idea of what you all have learned and and what order.

I am looking to start lessons, but I want to go in with a clear knowledge if what i am needing, and wanting to learn and that it is at my skill level.
If there are other posts relating to this, I apologise for the waste of time.
Anyone that can give me advice, or help in any way, shape or form, I will gladly take to it, and thank you all in advance for taking to time out to read this lengthy post :)

M@

theres no real set order to becoming an 'advanced' drummer. i suggest lessons..but if not..make a list of things you lack in and practice them

definately rudiments...always always
study many different styles of drumming
just read, expose yourself

dont get overwhelmed by all there is to learn...set short term goals..you cant do it all at once... :) :)