Son/rhumba Clave +Cascara latin grooves

[hotsauce3n]

I searched the forums and did not find this discussion anywhere else so that is why i decided to post this.

Son Clave and Rhumba Clave are two typical afro cuban clave patterns that phrase across two measures of 4:4 time. This and cascara, are usually what a timbali player will play. I am currently playing a demo where there is a 2:3 rhumba clave at a fast tempo and i am having trouble staying in line with it.

Here is cascara which is played over the claves:
HH/CowBell: |1-2&-&-&|1-2-3&-&|
*Here the dash means nothing played, or an 8th note rest

Son Clave:
|1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&|
*Here notes in bold are the clave notes the rest is all rests(just all counted out to show where you are)
Rhumba Clave is exactly the same as Son Clave, but has the last note of the first measure moved to the & of 4 instead of on 4:
|1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&|

Most of the time a biao bass drum is played underneath, which is simply the same as the first measure of son clave or played on 1, & of 2, 4 repeating to make the biao bass drum pattern.

2:3 or 3:2 clave is determined by where the clave falls in the measure. if the two hits come first, obviously it is a 2:3 clave. The two written out examples i gave above start with the 3 in the first measure, so are both 3:2 clave.
This is my understanding of the afro cuban claves, but if i have this wrong, someone please tell me because mayube this is why I am having such a difficult time playing this fast afro-cuban song. If it is correct i hope everyone finds it useful in their playing.

[theduke86]

That cascara pattern you're using sounds a lot like a Mambo pattern. If that's the case, you probably wouldn't be using Rhumba clave because Son clave usually goes with the style. And by most, I mean invariably always. I've heard one Mambo tune that has a rhumba clave.
And anyways, that bell pattern you're playing sounds an awful lot like 3:2 instead of 2:3. The clave is mostly always spelled out in the pattern that the timbale player plays. A good way to test which way a bell pattern goes is to tap a clave in your left hand and the bell pattern over it. If it has lots of simultaneous hits, the clave is going the right way. If there's lots of discrepancy, it's probably more right the other way.
That's probably why you're having trouble- the clave doesn't match what your right hand is playing!!! I bet it'll be easier once you reverse the bell pattern (just start on the second measure) and slow it down a tad.
If you ever try to play this stuff with real Cuban musicians, they will get personally offended if you play something the wrong way against clave, like I think you are doing now. I know from experience, unfortunately. The greatest blessing and downfall of this music is that it is so pattern based- I love Cuban music, and practicing it, but it's too pattern based for me to play on a regular basis. At least in rock,blues, funk, there are conventions (as there are in any style) but I believe Cuban music actually affords the least amount of freedom out of any music I've ever played- if you want to play it traditionally right. I'll stick to learning all the traditional matierial I can, then applying it to what I'm trying to do in the jazz world.
Anyways, sorry for the novel, hope it helps. I'm no big expert on the music, I'd love to hear some other opinions.

[Sticktrick]

I believe Cuban music actually affords the least amount of freedom out of any music I've ever played- if you want to play it traditionally right. I'll stick to learning all the traditional matierial I can, then applying it to what I'm trying to do in the jazz world.
Anyways, sorry for the novel, hope it helps. I'm no big expert on the music, I'd love to hear some other opinions.

Very true. And yet all the players that I know who are great at playing this kind of music don't stick to patterns all the time. What they do is far more important and requires a deep understanding of the music: They stick to the clave much more than to patterns. If you are locked in with the clave you are virtually free to play anything you like and no one will get offended. Trust me, I also speak out of experience - and like you I also made some real bad experience earlier.... But I realized that in this style people care way less about patterns than you tend to think. They care about the clave - this you cannot mess up. The rest: You can. Especially when you are playing on a drumset. Why? This music evolved without drumsets. So as soon as you add in a drumset and leave out percussions, it is allready no longer traditional which means, that you have much more freedom. Still the clave stays equally important.

But by all means: You have to know the patterns first and be able to play them the right way, before you mess around with them!

Here are some players who know how to do this very well: Robby Ameen, Peter Erskine, Horacio Hernandez and many other jazz-influenced drummers. Jeff Tain Watts has some great stuff going on for example.

And here is a book recommendation for those who would like to know more about how to mess around with traditional patterns and still stay in clave: Robby Ameen & Lincoln Goines: Afro-Cuban Grooves for Bass and Drums: Funkifying the Clave.

Get this book, it is one of the best books on that matter!

And now back to topic!

[hotsauce3n]

That cascara pattern you're using sounds a lot like a Mambo pattern. If that's the case, you probably wouldn't be using Rhumba clave because Son clave usually goes with the style. And by most, I mean invariably always. I've heard one Mambo tune that has a rhumba clave.
And anyways, that bell pattern you're playing sounds an awful lot like 3:2 instead of 2:3. The clave is mostly always spelled out in the pattern that the timbale player plays. A good way to test which way a bell pattern goes is to tap a clave in your left hand and the bell pattern over it. If it has lots of simultaneous hits, the clave is going the right way. If there's lots of discrepancy, it's probably more right the other way.
That's probably why you're having trouble- the clave doesn't match what your right hand is playing!!! I bet it'll be easier once you reverse the bell pattern (just start on the second measure) and slow it down a tad.
If you ever try to play this stuff with real Cuban musicians, they will get personally offended if you play something the wrong way against clave, like I think you are doing now. I know from experience, unfortunately. The greatest blessing and downfall of this music is that it is so pattern based- I love Cuban music, and practicing it, but it's too pattern based for me to play on a regular basis. At least in rock,blues, funk, there are conventions (as there are in any style) but I believe Cuban music actually affords the least amount of freedom out of any music I've ever played- if you want to play it traditionally right. I'll stick to learning all the traditional matierial I can, then applying it to what I'm trying to do in the jazz world.
Anyways, sorry for the novel, hope it helps. I'm no big expert on the music, I'd love to hear some other opinions.


Yes there are different cascara patterns but i am talking about this specific one that is generaly used in traditional songs. Yes i agree tha cuban music is very specific because sometimes they have songs where the beat starts out but without the clave. Immediately, any cuban musician can identify the clave in the time without even hearing it. i still do not understand this because i have to wait for the clave to either start or to see where the hits with horns or cyumbals are lining up in the measures.

[hotsauce3n]

Why? This music evolved without drumsets. So as soon as you add in a drumset and leave out percussions, it is allready no longer traditional which means, that you have much more freedom. Still the clave stays equally important.



I know this and i can play the song, making up my own pattern and that very much helps. Howeverm, my teacher wants me to be able to play this song with the traditional cascara pattern which is essentially 3:2 based but can also be switched around to a 2:3 or switching around the whole cascara pattern so it becomes a 2:3 oriented pattern.

[theduke86]

Sorry Sticktrick, I should have clarified- those drummers play with a great amount of freedom. They *usually* don't play traditional Cuban stuff, though. What they play is very, very Cubanized jazz. Outside of a Songo, there isn't really a lot of room for improvisation on the drumset in a traditional ensemble. Even a Salsa ensemble which has some roots in jazz like Tito Puente.
It could just be the musicians I have played with (I live far away from any sort of hip Cuban scene), but when I'd play something even slightly off the clave (while not messing with it) I'd get the "look of doom" from a great timbale player. Also, I've sat behind the glass in a recording session with some really heavy Cubans... and witnessed an hour long violent argument about what clave they should use in this tune. Sometimes, this gets taken too far. However, it could also be the greatest grooviest time ever too. It's up to the musicians- this is just my somewhat jaded (and inexperienced) opinion.

[MEL]

Clave and latin rhythms are typically written in cut time to make them easier to read. Two measures of 4/4 time is not the "correct" way perceive it. The way you have it written, the pulse or beat is on one and three. So while it doesn't make the part you have to play any simpler, you should be perceiving the tempo as half the speed of what you have written, which may help you to relax while playing the part.

The cascara pattern you have written is definitely in 3-2 rumba clave.

However, drummers or timbale players in modern Cuban Timba bands (danceable salsa but with jazz like creativity, variations and improvisation) typically drop the cascara and play a bell pattern when they get to a high energy "mambo" section, which is when the horns play, alternating with the "coros" or vocal improvisations, usually every 4 to 8 bars. "Mambo" has a lot of shades of meaning which are still changing with time, and can also mean uptempo "salsa" style music in general -- is that what you mean?

I would argue that in modern Cuban music, son and rumba clave are often interchangable within the same song -- it all depends on where you perceive the accents as being, and many groups will change within the same song or even "jump clave", switching the order of the "2 and 3 sides". If no one is explicitly playing clave, its not unheard for two players within the group to perceive it differently at the same time, one in son, the other in rumba clave.

Playing "contraclave" (like playing three hits on the kickdrum on the "two side") is like displacing a backbeat for effect because it goes with well with the music. Playing "cruzado" is doing the same thing, but wrong, because of the way it feels with the particular melody, bass line, etc. in the song.

I think seeing clave, cascara and bell parts as rigid patterns is a good way to start if you didn't grow up with the music. Up until a few months ago, a friend of mine who is aprofessional latin musician was bemused at my inability to "feel it" and vary my parts when I play with him, and my need to be told what the clave was before we started to play -- but I think everybody who comes late to this music has to do that, so don't worry. We play a game where I try to clap clave to pieces to music where the clave isn't explicit, and I couldn't do it until after enough exposure I began to "feel" what was right. Now that I'm starting to get the feel, I agree with one of my books that says that clave is like our North American timeline, the backbeat -- clave is always felt, but it can be implied, explicit or intentionally altered.

Commercial salsa and a lot of our "Homage to Tito Puente" type Latin Jazz are pretty rigid and stagnant. Listen to some of NG La Banda, Los Que Son Son (both Timba style groups), Los Van Van (in the 1990's -- mature Songo edging into Timba), Gonzalo Rubalcaba (piano player, but his groups kick ass), Horacio Hernandez, Giovanni Hidalgo or Dafnis Prieto (these last 4 are all jazz) to hear how flexible and creative Cuban music can be.

Check out http://timba.com/fans/clave_debates.asp for the best discussion of clave that I know of online.

See http://www.chucksilverman.com/primer.html for more about playing cascara in rumba clave. I think he also has a book for Latin drumset that he co-wrote with Changuito, who has amazing feel and inventiveness, and was the man who drove the evolution of timbales and trapset playing in Cuba while the rest of the Latin world was stagnating a bit, so the book is probably pretty good.

I hope that the Silverman website and the first paragraphs help.

[hotsauce3n]

thanks mel! that is a great post and im gonna check out those links

[Graeme@beatofdrum.com]

Hi guys

Ive got some videos on my website www.beatofdrum.com that might be of help to you.

Go to http://www.beatofdrum.com/winter05.php and check out my Latin vids. There are worksheets and explanations for Clave and all your fave Latin rhythms.

Hope they are usefull.

Graeme

[hotsauce3n]

that is a great site, thanks

[untilitsleeps]

hey just a minor correction the bass pattern your refering to is called the tumbao, not the biao. the biao is used in the biao samba

[jangus]

I love this stuff. Latin drumming is a challenge to me and I really enjoy learning it.

[Deathmetalconga]

I've been trying for the last year to play a clave pattern on the left foot, either on hihat or foot percussion. It's tough. I really like "Afro-Cuban Rhythms for Drumset" by Frank Malabe and Rob Weiner. Great book and mindblowing rhythms.

[KCDrummer]

There is a great book by Doug Auwarter called "Essential Latin Styles for the Drumset". It goes through all the patterns that can be played with clave, including Cascara, Mambo bell, Bongo bell, Songo, Cha-Cha, etc.

[el_frenko]

that bass drum tumbao often locks onto what the bassist is playing, so make sure its tight. also, i'd recomend you get Tommy Igoe's "Groove Essentials" (the book) cos he goes over alot of Afro-Cuban stuff, and gives you these playalong tracks which really help you master the rythms and keep in time with other muscians.