THE SINGLE STROKE ROLL THREAD [Archive] - DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM

RudimentalDrummer

08-08-2005, 10:40 AM

should i use fingers? which fingers? just middle? or all?

If I'm correct ... The stick should be high up, holding sticks with your thumb & 2nd finger with the remaining of the stick resting on your last 3 fingers ...then drop down (alternate R & L hands) and you must use your last 3 fingers to catch the stick during rebound, do it slowly at 1st .... speed is not so important initially as it will build up through time - just get the technique correct ... cause if you don't catch the stick ... you will notice that (If you are Right-handed) your left-stick most of the time would not be hitting consistenly on the exact same spot of the snare but swaying here and there .... I guess you have to look at the snare and see if your sticks is hitting on the same spot during practice .... Wonder if I'm correct here ... Bros here please give your valuable advice too...

Bro minishee07, I'm still learning too

finnhiggins

08-08-2005, 11:01 AM

There's no one technique for singles, at least as far as I'm concerned. You need to be able to execute them from the wrist, from the fingers and also from the arms in some circumstances. At slow tempos sometimes finger control alone is too vague, but once bounce comes into play then fingers get extremely useful at low dynamics. If you're playing hard on a floor tom you're going to need to be able to play from your wrists at the very least.

The big thing is being able to control the rebound of the stick though. If you're fighting it or your sticks are not travelling in the shortest path possible (straight down and back up along the same line, no circles or funny angled rebounds) then you'll never be able to get the speed up in a clean way.

You can tell if you're fighting the stick - play on a practice pad, and watch the "arc" your stick moves through. If it looks like one long blur then you're doing well, all is good. If you can see a "stopped" stick for a fraction of a second at the bottom of the arc then you're stopping the stick and then picking it up again, and that's bad. Also if your sticks aren't going in a straight line - if they're coming in at a 45-degree angle from the head or whatever. That's also bad.

As for anything else in technique you'll need to learn a proper grip (trad or one of the various matched grips) properly, so that you are using all the fingers on your hand properly and not letting your fulcrum or wrist get tense. Teachers are really helpful for this!

After that it's all just work - there's a million and one good exercises for getting swift clean singles, pick any five and work them to death and you'll be fine.

Smoky_McPot

08-08-2005, 11:29 AM

finnhiggins

08-08-2005, 12:19 PM

Hey I dont agree that there is no technique for single strokes.
No 1 is the "Free Stroke"

...

And No.2 is the Push Pull technique.

Well, I did say there was no *one* technique, so since you just named two I guess you agree with me :)

Smoky_McPot

08-08-2005, 12:33 PM

Oops, sorry mate. Misread ur post. Still, check out the links, theyre good regardless!

finnhiggins

08-08-2005, 01:29 PM

Oops, sorry mate. Misread ur post. Still, check out the links, theyre good regardless!

I am - thanks. My matched grip playing is pretty clean but I suspect there's at least some minor stuff technically wrong with my traditional grip so I'm downloading the videos on that to see if there's anything useful :)

toteman2

08-09-2005, 02:57 AM

Hey I dont agree that there is no technique for single strokes.
No 1 is the "Free Stroke"
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html
Check out Dom's vid! Awesome drummer.

And No.2 is the Push Pull technique. Check out Dave Weckl's vid on this site, and check out the Sticky "One Handed Rolls". Basically your getting each hand to be as fast as possible by doing a sort of double stroke roll with each hand. Its a bit hard for me to explain, just check it out above you'll see what i mean.

While the "free stroke" will help one understand the technique behing the single stroke roll very well, the "push pull technique" has nothing to do with a single stroke roll...Single stroke rolls are played with 2 hands...

http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/highlights/highlights-mtlfest_111304_02.wmv

This is a great example of the single stroke roll, played at low and high volume...Hope this helps...

drumzalicious

08-09-2005, 03:06 AM

i find it easier to use a combination of all my fingers and my wrists to achieve good singles.

Smoky_McPot

08-09-2005, 03:24 PM

i find it easier to use a combination of all my fingers and my wrists to achieve good singles.

That is basically what the Push Pull technique is, when you use your wrist for one stroke and your fingers for another and repeat. This is *another* way to achieve blistering speeds. I said it was sortof a double stroke because your wrist only moves once per 2 strokes. Virgil is using the Free Stroke technique that Dom Famularo demonstrates.
Check out Dave Weckl's video on this site. He shows the technique. And another link somewhere in the Sticky "One handed rolls" demonstrates using the technique as singles. So you have R L R L but the 1st R L is made with a wrist movement and the next R L with the fingers of each hand. Hope you get what im talking about!

Henry II

08-10-2005, 02:06 AM

All 3. And you should do some research and learn the Gladstone and Moeller methods. They are hard work, but they are essential and more than worth the effort.

toteman2

08-10-2005, 02:14 AM

So you have R L R L but the 1st R L is made with a wrist movement and the next R L with the fingers of each hand.

Again this is exactly what Dom shows in his "free stoke" technique, but it has nothing to do with the "push pull" technique...You can't play singles with the push pull because it's a double stroke by nature...To play a single stroke roll you have to be a free stroke master...

RudimentalDrummer

08-10-2005, 05:39 AM

you have R L R L but the 1st R L is made with a wrist movement and the next R L with the fingers of each hand. Hope you get what im talking about!

What does this means bro Smoky? ...The 2nd RL with fingers of each hands means - an Accent? if we are doing that ....right? ???????

hotsauce3n

08-10-2005, 05:47 AM

If you are talking about single handed rolls, then i would go with the freehand technique, i now have that completely down now, im still trying to get down the push pull technique...this one is much harder

Smoky_McPot

08-10-2005, 01:26 PM

What does this means bro Smoky? ...The 2nd RL with fingers of each hands means - an Accent? if we are doing that ....right? ???????

Your not doing an accent. Ok, the Free Hand technique uses the force of the stroke to bounce the stick back up to the start position and repeat. This is an extension of that where the 1st stroke on each hand is made by a free stroke, and the 2nd stroke is made by the fingers pulling the base of the stick into your palm creating another stroke, but with 1/2 the wrist movement / effort.

Go to http://www.paiste.com/artists/ and go to Gordy Knudtson Open/Close technique. About 1/2 way down the page. I think this will finally put to rest any of your worries.Thanks to jammaster for posting it in the One Handed Rolls sticky.

toteman, of course you can do single stroke rolls with the Push pull! It is a double stroke by nature yes, and you could play it RRLLRRLLRRLL but if you "chase" one hand with the other you can still play RLRL!
Watch this video before you say you cant do single stroke rolls with the Push Pull technique!!!

toteman2

08-10-2005, 11:45 PM

Now the name of the thread is "single stroke rolls", we've gone from explaining that, to the "push pull", to "open close"...IN the intrest of acurate information the "open close" technnique is not the "push pull techinque", they are 2 different animals...If you notice in Gordy's video, he never plays a single stoke roll, only pretty fast 16ths...You can't play a one handed roll using Gordy's meathod, but the "push pull" can acheive this...To play single stroke rolls you have to use the "free stoke", and that only...I've never sceen ANYONE play a single stroke rolls anyother way, and if someone has please show me, because i would love to indulge in new meathods...

vince

09-02-2005, 10:28 PM

Hi !
I worked a lot on my my double-stroke roll and now I need your expierence to work my single-stroke roll. If you have some exercises i could practice on the pad it would be nice !!!
Thanx !

NUTHA JASON

09-03-2005, 12:24 AM

have a look at this thread.

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1933

j

RXFDRUMS

09-04-2005, 02:58 AM

Check out Jeff Queen new book. It seems to have some really good stuff and explains the Moeller stroke very nicely.

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/jeffqueen-video-lessons.html

drumbig

09-15-2005, 11:46 PM

Can any of you explain to me the proper technique for a single stroke roll, is it like the drop pick up technique used in doublestrokes?

centralzeke

09-16-2005, 01:17 AM

It's all about the rebound... bounce of the stick. Think of like dribbing a basketball.

drumbig

09-16-2005, 01:28 AM

right on, i have aready been plaing around with that but cant seem to get any meat behind it especially on the toms. i have been using mor e of my hands an fingers for this technique though, should i get the wrist more involved.

somedrummer

09-16-2005, 02:56 AM

Funkydew

09-16-2005, 06:47 AM

From what I understand, the speed all comes from the fingers. It is physically impossible to make your wrist go fast enough to actually have a true single stroke "roll" using mostly wrist. SO yes, work on your fingers.
That is not entirely accurate. Buddy played a deadly single stroke roll from his wrists (see the biography, Traps). Fingers are fast, but can only take you to a certain volume level. After that, you must employ the wrists. On the toms, this becomes even clearer. You are well advised to learn the free stroke. A thousand good things will come from that. Promise!

FD

neil drummer

09-16-2005, 07:08 AM

It`s Like anything you do that`s physical,you use bigger muscles for more power.I`ve found that when you close the roll it`s a combination of wrists & finger.Just start it SLOW and concentrate on being relaxed and precise,speed will come naturally.GOOD LUCK

noVIce LegENd

10-06-2005, 06:28 PM

BboyShifty1

10-06-2005, 08:47 PM

Heh but those speed drummers are not in the single stroke for practical reasons. At 1000 BPM, you can hear a pindrop over them playing. Fingers are the best way to go fast, but for dynamics you'll need to learn how to use both wrists and fingers as everyone said.

davodi74

10-07-2005, 05:42 AM

One handed roll should help a bit with that. It's hard to get though, but you can get some insane speed if you are even with it.

toteman2

10-07-2005, 12:15 PM

Currently i am practising one hand single stroke roll... can anyone give me an update of the fastest one hand roll... the one i know of will be WFD's 2 hands single stroke roll of 1199 bpm. that means approx... 600 bpm... but i m sure there are many talented fast fingers out there.

"one handed single stroke roll"? I've heard of a one handed roll but never a "one handed single stroke roll"...the record you refer to is 1199 single strokes per minute not "bpm", which is just under 300BPM not "600" BPM...The worlds fastest singles is now at 1247...I don't know what the record is for the fastest one handed roll...

I didn't post this to bust balls, just in the intrest of acurate information...I see alot of people get confused with the stokes and BPM concept...

Funky Ass

10-07-2005, 11:13 PM

I think you should play single strokes with both fingers and wrist. It is true that you could play a lot faster with just your fingers but you can's play as loud as you can with the wrist. You should check out Buddy Rich single storkes and learn from him.

Here is a practise that should help you boost up your single strokes. I think it is called the Stone Killer.

RRRR LLLL 1min

RRRR RRRR LLLL LLLL 2min

RRRR RRRR RRRR LLLL LLLL LLLL 3min

RRRR RRRR RRRR RRRR LLLL LLLL LLLL LLLL 4min

- practice to a metronome

green earings

10-09-2005, 12:03 AM

can some one show me the fingering for the free stroke roll, ive checked vic firth, couldnt find it, be a great help, chars

toteman2

10-09-2005, 01:07 AM

The free stoke has nothing to do with the single stroke roll...

finnhiggins

10-09-2005, 01:36 AM

The free stoke has nothing to do with the single stroke roll...

Yes it does, actually. Quite a lot. The "Freehand technique" as described by Johnny Rabb doesn't - it's an off-the-rim one-handed roll. But the "Free stroke" as described by Dom Famularo (for one, but he's the first guy I heard using the term) is a single full high-to-high rebound stroke. When you play single strokes you should be playing these strokes, hand-to-hand. That's what a good, well-executed single stroke roll is - each hand playing a consistent series of rebound strokes to the same height with even execution between hands, dynamics, tone and timing.

toteman2

10-09-2005, 11:50 AM

Yes it does, actually. Quite a lot. The "Freehand technique" as described by Johnny Rabb doesn't - it's an off-the-rim one-handed roll. But the "Free stroke" as described by Dom Famularo (for one, but he's the first guy I heard using the term) is a single full high-to-high rebound stroke. When you play single strokes you should be playing these strokes, hand-to-hand. That's what a good, well-executed single stroke roll is - each hand playing a consistent series of rebound strokes to the same height with even execution between hands, dynamics, tone and timing.

Right you are sir...And i was thinking of the "freehand techinque" that Rabb demonstrates...The "freestoke" is the exact technique one should use to approach the single stroke roll...mixed up the 2..My mistake...

jonescrusher

10-09-2005, 04:33 PM

"one handed single stroke roll"? I've heard of a one handed roll but never a "one handed single stroke roll"...the record you refer to is 1199 single strokes per minute not "bpm", which is just under 300BPM not "600" BPM...The worlds fastest singles is now at 1247...I don't know what the record is for the fastest one handed roll...

I didn't post this to bust balls, just in the intrest of acurate information...I see alot of people get confused with the stokes and BPM concept...

Dont want to be the pedant either, but it really isn't set in stone that BPM has to refer to the quarter note pulse to which sixteenths are played. Given that BPM stands for beats per minute, there is no reason why this cant refer to the total number of beats played in the minute on the pad. Each to their own, as londg as it's clarified. Look at Nutha Jason's post on WFD - he's quoting bpm as a minim pulse (sorry, don't know what the american equivalent of minim is....)

noVIce LegENd

10-09-2005, 07:49 PM

"one handed single stroke roll"? I've heard of a one handed roll but never a "one handed single stroke roll"...the record you refer to is 1199 single strokes per minute not "bpm", which is just under 300BPM not "600" BPM...The worlds fastest singles is now at 1247...I don't know what the record is for the fastest one handed roll...

Hey! Thanks for enlightening me! Haha... I jus realise ppl can only do singles with one hand so it is a bit redundant to put single to the <one hand "single" stroke roll>. Wow!!! 1247single strokes per minute. I really have to put in extra effort to beat it.
I want to train up my speed while i am still young and growing... I am currently training with finger weights on my left index finger and right middle finger ( i assume u all know Y only these 2 fingers)... & i am slowly gaining speed and control each day... anyone got better way of trainning up finger speed???

jonescrusher

10-09-2005, 08:06 PM

Hey! Thanks for enlightening me! Haha... I jus realise ppl can only do singles with one hand so it is a bit redundant to put single to the <one hand "single" stroke roll>. Wow!!! 1247single strokes per minute. I really have to put in extra effort to beat it.
I want to train up my speed while i am still young and growing... I am currently training with finger weights on my left index finger and right middle finger ( i assume u all know Y only these 2 fingers)... & i am slowly gaining speed and control each day... anyone got better way of trainning up finger speed???

But you say you've got yourr 'sentididle' to 1300 bpm? Whats the prob with 1247? :)
And why are you only training those two fingers? Did you lose your right index finger in a freak cymbal choking accident? lol (sorry if that's what actually happened...)

toteman2

10-10-2005, 12:52 AM

Dont want to be the pedant either, but it really isn't set in stone that BPM has to refer to the quarter note pulse to which sixteenths are played. Given that BPM stands for beats per minute, there is no reason why this cant refer to the total number of beats played in the minute on the pad. Each to their own, as londg as it's clarified. Look at Nutha Jason's post on WFD - he's quoting bpm as a minim pulse (sorry, don't know what the american equivalent of minim is....)

I guess it's not set in stone but it would really do no good to say i played 1000 BPM while taking it at 250 BPM...That would confuse most people...It would make sense to say that i played 1000 stokes in a minute at 250 BPM...That makes more sense to me...

jonescrusher

10-10-2005, 04:04 AM

I guess it's not set in stone but it would really do no good to say i played 1000 BPM while taking it at 250 BPM...That would confuse most people...It would make sense to say that i played 1000 stokes in a minute at 250 BPM...That makes more sense to me...

Agreed :)

...........

NUTHA JASON

10-10-2005, 11:19 AM

Nutha Jason’s routine for fast acceleration and maintenance of single strokes.

Step one – bench marking.

Spend a good half hour with a metronome discovering your current speed ability. Do this by playing 8 strokes for each metronome count. Slowly increase the metronome from 60b/min by an order of 10b/min each time (play each run for at least 20 seconds to be sure) until you can hear errors creeping in(uneven strokes or arms start cramping). At this point drop the speed by 5b/min and write it down.

Step two

Everyday, once you have done some other drumming and are warmed up, set your metronome at your benchmark speed and follow through the list of exercises below. Then simply add 3b/min to the benchmark every day. If you find after a few weeks that you are getting really fast but errors are creeping in again, only increase the setting by 1b/min, or hold the same setting for a few days. Use your best judgement in these cases. If it still seems to be locking up and erroneous, drop the speed by 10b/min for a few weeks.

Follow this sequence of 28 exercises through without stopping:

ex1 | ex2 | ex3 | ex3 |

ex4 | ex4 | ex4 | ex4 |

ex5 | ex5 | ex5 | ex5 |

ex3 | ex6 | ex6 | ex6 |

ex7 | ex7 | ex7 | ex7 |

ex2 | ex3 | ex8 | ex8 |

ex8 | ex 8| ex3 | ex9 |

here are the exercises tabbed. remember the metronome in 4/4 falls on the numbered beats. you fill out the space in between with seven strokes.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/rolls.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/?)

This will produce excellent results and meets drummers of all skills wherever they are. So give it a try.

j

Jesper Varn

10-10-2005, 11:53 AM

Excellent excercise, Jason! Great stuff!

NUTHA JASON

10-10-2005, 01:44 PM

thanks.

i just remembered one more thing. as a teacher we had to learn about it. its called Vygotsky's Zone of Proximal Development. what it basically means is that under the right circumstances an adult can teach nuclear physics to a group of eight year olds and they will show learning and retention of the concepts. the theory is complex but in terms of the exercises above it pays to use VZP thusly:

Step Three
Occasionally try doing the exercise 20 to 30 b/min above your current bench mark. i mean right now get off your computer and try to play little bursts (ex 4) of singles at 155b/min. Can't do it? now try this VZP type pattern:

ex1 | ex1 | ex2 | ex2 |

ex3 | ex3 | ex3 | ex3 |

ex4 | ex4 | ex3 | ex3 |

ex4 | ex4 | ex3 | ex3 | and repeat...

better? if you could do it then you were playing at the worlds fastest drummer speed. now all you have to do is learn to maintain the flurries in ex4 for one solid minute and you'll top 1240 strokes!!!

j

jonescrusher

10-10-2005, 02:57 PM

Aargh! Vygotsky's ZPD!! Brings back nightmares of my final year developmental psychology dissertation!

Frankie

10-11-2005, 06:48 AM

hey nutha. i'm sorry but i don't really understand what you mean. i don't get the table thing and the differently shaded squares. could you please explain it again for me cause i'm really interested.

thanks

NUTHA JASON

10-11-2005, 08:07 AM

its just like drum tab but with shaded squares rather than Xs. think of those weird pianos that play themselves by winding a long sheet of card full of holes through a mechanical reader. as you read each strip from left to right you only play the shaded squares. the black ones are optional accents i play just to lock in with the metronome.

ex1, here we play left right left right on the beeps of the metronome.

ex2 we play RLRLRLRL but now the metronome is sounding when we play right and the lefts are played between the beeps/clicks. so the speed has doubled from ex1.

ex3 doubles again. the count would be 1 e & a 2 e & a ... with ex3 but the metronome is only sounding out the numbers. ex 3 is the base we can then launch off into small groups or, as i call them, flurries, of a further doubling look at ...

ex4 which is the same as ex3 but when we get to the third count on the metronome we double up again and play 8 really fast notes...too fast to count at even 60 b/min but if you had to i suppose you could count it as ... 3 ti e ti and ti a ti 4...

and so progressively on to ex9 which is all at this speed effectively 8 times the metronome reading (at 100b/min you will then be laying 800 strokes).

because of its landmark speed we should all aim to be able to do this entire exercise at 120 b/min (disco time)

the sequence:
ex1 | ex2 | ex3 | ex3 |
ex4 | ex4 | ex4 | ex4 |
ex5 | ex5 | ex5 | ex5 |
ex3 | ex6 | ex6 | ex6 |
ex7 | ex7 | ex7 | ex7 |
ex2 | ex3 | ex8 | ex8 |
ex8 | ex 8| ex3 | ex9 |

is optional but it is a carefully worked out progressive routine that will build up to ex 9 and allow also to work on the acceleration which loooks so cool in fills...you know when a drummer is playing a fill quite fast and then suddenly doubles the speed near the end of the fill (flurries it) it is really full of wow factor and is muscially exciting.
hope this all helps.
j

Jesper Varn

10-11-2005, 08:12 AM

Again - really, really cool post, and thanks for sharing this. I did of course have to try your additional info and boy did it wonders for my motivation. Really, really cool....

Keep up the good work!

noVIce LegENd

10-11-2005, 02:36 PM

But you say you've got yourr 'sentididle' to 1300 bpm? Whats the prob with 1247? :)
And why are you only training those two fingers? Did you lose your right index finger in a freak cymbal choking accident? lol (sorry if that's what actually happened...)

Haha... Sentididle is something i made up as i told u B4. Once i reach 1300 strokes per min in one hand, i will name it. Ha. Just like how Dawin name the flinches Dawin birds. Erm... maybe i was wrong... the ppl named it actually. Haha! So now i will jus work towards it while i am still young and energetic. My right index is jus for fulcrum of stick...so Y the need for speed??? Haha! I jus feel these 2 fingers do most work in stick control.

incubotic

10-11-2005, 07:54 PM

i always thought that ur middle, ring, and i suppose pinky, fingers do a lot of the work in finger technique...u should probly put weights on all ur fingers anyway tho. Don't forget to stretch them as well too.

jonescrusher

10-11-2005, 09:44 PM

Haha... Sentididle is something i made up as i told u B4. Once i reach 1300 strokes per min in one hand, i will name it. Ha. Just like how Dawin name the flinches Dawin birds. Erm... maybe i was wrong... the ppl named it actually. Haha! So now i will jus work towards it while i am still young and energetic. My right index is jus for fulcrum of stick...so Y the need for speed??? Haha! I jus feel these 2 fingers do most work in stick control.

Your going for 1300 on one hand??!!! Whoa, the ambition i admire lol

centralzeke

10-12-2005, 12:22 AM

In one hand. Jeez. Don't hurt yourself dude cause that's physically impossible.

green earings

10-13-2005, 04:06 PM

hi jason, sorry to sound really thick, i do want to improve my drumming and speed, BUT i absolutley do not get this, please help as i want to understand... cheers mate

NUTHA JASON

10-14-2005, 08:57 AM

instead of typing i'll show you. sorry about the quality and it was late so i had to play quite soft:
ex 1 2 3 at 80b/min
http://media.putfile.com/ex123
ex 3 4
http://media.putfile.com/ex34
ex 5
http://media.putfile.com/ex5
ex 3 into 6
http://media.putfile.com/ex3into6
ex
http://media.putfile.com/ex89
finger technique
http://media.putfile.com/fingertechnique
world speed record
http://media.putfile.com/worldspeedflurries

hope this helps.
j

green earings

10-14-2005, 11:22 AM

thank you very much nutha,

k3ng

10-14-2005, 12:38 PM

Nutha, I love your metronome!

And this exercise is great.. I've almost tickled the world record speed

NUTHA JASON

10-14-2005, 01:54 PM

my pleasure to you both.

the metronome is built into my roland module. it has clicks and cowbell type options but the voice is the coolest because it has a certain roundness to it that allows you to pull and push the beat without compromising the pulse. its cool for odd times as well. she counts up to seven etc.

j

hotsauce3n

10-15-2005, 05:11 AM

Great exercises, those are good to do everyday i think for improving speed, they are somewhat similar to the gary chaffee warmup routines.. i like it. thanks

hotsauce3n

10-15-2005, 05:16 AM

also just checked out your finger techinique video, nice finger control, my right hand is pretty good like that my problem is getting the left up to speed

JohnMunsey

10-15-2005, 06:18 AM

While we're on the topic, this is what my single stroke will look like soon (yeah - riiiight!) lol

Is this all fingers? If so, my fingers dont generate such a loud sound

Single Stroke Roll - Fast! (http://www.artverdi.com/video/singlestrokesbothhands.wmv)

centralzeke

10-15-2005, 07:00 AM

I don't think it's so loud. Remember, it's a snare drum, that sound carries very well, especially in recording.

mediocrefunkybeat

10-15-2005, 10:04 AM

Aargh! Vygotsky's ZPD!! Brings back nightmares of my final year developmental psychology dissertation!

Zone of Proximal Development? Hah! Yes! Never thought of it that way. Maybe with can try some operant conditioning with a TES. I want chocolate after all...

vince

11-22-2005, 10:13 PM

Hi,
I would like to improve my single-stroke roll...
Could you give tips that really helped you developing It ?
This thread would condense all ways to practice It, and show for everyone a panel of useful tips.
So, post your ideas !

Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan

11-22-2005, 10:28 PM

First, read the 50 posts in similar threads within the last month. You will find many tips there. Cheers, DPS

RickJames

11-24-2005, 09:12 AM

langywangy

12-01-2005, 02:26 PM

HI everyone il get straight to the point. Im an experienced drummer (playing since the age of 7 im now 19) i passed grade 8 when i was 13 and for me this was just the start of my real learning curve. i have fairly good technique and my rudiments when i actually practice them are ok and i use them a lot round the kit. the one rudiment i cannot master to the same standard as the rest of my playing to worrying lengths is the single stroke roll.

im going right back to basics this month and trying to rework this rudiment. so should this be played with the fingers (i use matchstick)to get speed or is there somethig im missing here?

Any tips welcome

burnthehero

12-01-2005, 02:43 PM

For the past few years, I've been on a neverending quest to find the happy medium between wrists and fingers. It seems like the more I involve my fingers, the less accurate I am. Therefore, I always seem to revert back to using my wrists almost exclusively. I'm sacrificing speed by doing this, but consistency is much more important to me than speed.

Womble

12-01-2005, 03:44 PM

im going right back to basics this month and trying to rework this rudiment. so should this be played with the fingers (i use matchstick)to get speed or is there somethig im missing here?

Any tips welcome

I think your problem is probably caused by the matchsticks. They don't have enough rebound and they're too quiet. They also have a tendency to ignite and reduce themselves to ashes - a nightmare in a gig, trust me.

Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan

12-01-2005, 05:19 PM

I think your problem is probably caused by the matchsticks. They don't have enough rebound and they're too quiet. They also have a tendency to ignite and reduce themselves to ashes - a nightmare in a gig, trust me.
hee hee..good one.

Actualy, there are several threads on the SSR, and a whole thread on the finger/wrist question, if you take the trouble to look down the list of threads. DPS

fizzyfox

12-02-2005, 02:36 AM

Hi all,

For power and accuracy, I would work mainly from the wrist, but when it gets to the point where my wrists would give in I'd then switch to fingers. If I needed more power (volume) using fingers, then I'd use the French Grip....I can get more oompf behind it that way.

I find the tricky bit is when switching from wrist playing directly to exclusive finger playing, Heres a good exercise:

Using Matchgrip and using the wrists, play 16th notes for one bar.
Now switch to French grip and play 32nds for one bar using just the fingers.
Repeat round and round to a metronome.

Also if accuracy is a problem then do exactly the same exercise as above but instead of 32nd notes, use 16th triplet notes.

Hope this helps,

Fizzyfox

langywangy

12-04-2005, 01:34 PM

thanks all il check out those other forums and try and work this thing out its driving me insane!!!!! its the main thing i hate about my playing and if i dont sort it soon i may take up the recorder!

Aaron

kjsm

12-06-2005, 05:20 PM

im convinced from reading these pages that theres some confusion over

1) open close techniaue for playing with two hands, making a roll that is rlrlrlrlrlrl (or lrlrlrlrlr)
2) pushh/pull technique - which is simliar to openclose in that it can be used for the aforementioend single stroke roll with two hands (thats rlrlrlrlrlrl or lrlrlrlrlr, again). However it is =different because it can be used for the SINGLE HAND ROLL (this is NOT a 'single stroke roll'. single stroke roll is two hands, playing alternating hits, and is a standard rudiment. single hand roll, ethier left hand or right, involves as the name says only one hand and is a showtrick, not a rudiment, not standard, not a neccessity etc) as apparently done by buddy rich and shown by the infamous jojop mayer buddy rich secret technique video where he explains, sadly, nothing at all.
3) the single hand roll (or one-handed roll) using the rim of the drum as a fullcrume or by some method like the 'pushpull' (something that only seems to be available for demonstration by people who play hellih traditional grip - c'mon teachers, the left hand then becomes totally untranslatable. lets all play traditional or matched but c'mon).

when playing the single stroke roll (thats the classic alteranting hands making one stroke per hand movement) one can use arms (lol!), wrists (half lol - RSI folks, thats all i can say), fingers (key) or a combination. look at videos, listen to players/advice, read these threads and more if you have time. and a little practise - i think there is a bit too much emphasis on hours and hours a day of practise. just play when you can, as much as you want - but remember, bodybuilders don't train 8 hours a day every day - and though theres plenty of teenage drummers fortunate enough to be a ble to do that, remember all of you: if you go anywher (college job anything) you can NOT assume such luxury. get used to practising/maintaing by other means. Thinking, itself, does a lot more than you think (i mean really think).

Nizza594

02-08-2006, 01:32 AM

Hi guys,

Im pretty sure this has been brought up before, but I did a search and couldnt find anything specific.

Quite frankly, im getting well and truely P***ed off with the damn single stroke roll! My doubles, paradiddles, 5 6 7 strokes, flams are all great, but no matter how much I practice the single stroke, its just not happening for me, a) it starts turning flammy at any kinda speed b) I cant maintain it for any length of time, and trying to move it around the drums and keep it solid is practically a non starter for me.

Any advice for this would be great because im getting really frustrated!

Thanks guys!

Neil

drumbum

02-08-2006, 10:57 AM

the only real answer to your problem is to keep practicing. after that, practice some more. and when you think you've got it, start all over again. a site i found useful if you practice regularly is the vic firth site. just follow the link...

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments/01singlestrokeroll.html

Stu_Strib

02-08-2006, 11:31 AM

Go slower than you think you have to. Don't bump up the speed (use a metronome to measure progress) until you can play the speed you are at evenly and for a long time. Then bump it up in 5 beat intervals until you hit a snag. Back it down to the previous speed you could play at comfortably, then only bump it up 1.

The key is NOT TO CONTINUE until you can play the speed before it comfortably and evenly.

Most of the time people just don't realize how slow you have to go at first. If you start off too fast, you are only reinforcing poor/improper playing.

Slow down to go fast, as they say.

burnthehero

02-08-2006, 03:09 PM

Isn't it funny how the single stroke roll is the 1st rudiment, but also the most difficult? I improved my single strokes by playing them very slowly for a while, really concentrating on my grip and technique. Also, when you're practicing them, think "off the head, not into the head".

incubotic

02-08-2006, 04:12 PM

Yes what they said, start slow and keep it slow for a while. But also, practice one exercise of singles at like 60bpm(quarter note clicks) with your wrists...then after about 10 mins, use only your fingers. Play at all dynamic levels/ different heights. Use your wrists for FF, F, MF(Loudest, Loud, medium loud) and your fingers for MP, P, PP (medium soft, soft, very soft)...This way you cover every aspect of the roll you may encounter in regular playing. You will notice dramatic improvement in your single stroke control within weeks if you practice regularly.

playplayplay

02-08-2006, 04:17 PM

I was just looking at that stuff on Tiger Bills site, Gladstone techneque. check it out! I have yet to practice it, but im gonna give it a try durring practice tonight. Sounds like it would work, and also Tim Waterson has a good tip to about the Moeller( spell check machine broken) bear with me... good luck with this, let me know if this stuff works for you!

Nizza594

02-09-2006, 01:51 AM

Stu_Strib

02-09-2006, 10:09 AM

Thanks for the advice guys, ive spent a few hours today working on this.

Ive been working with the Vic Firth rudiment site, for those of you familar with the way the 'test yourself' bit works, i can get about half way through the 'platinum' section before i start to mess up. But before i started to REALLY work at this today, i could only do up to the start of the 'gold' section, so i guess i gotta just put some real elboy grease into this!

Thanks again guys.

Sometimes I wonder what their standards are for platinum and diamond. I can get into the diamond on most of those, but some of them I can't even get out of gold. I can do the fast single strokes on platinum and some into diamond, but that's because they aren't constant singles, ala Worlds Fastest Drummer.

I too started improving with the Tiger Bill stuff, but the gladstone is only good up to a certain speed, then it turns all fingers. The only way to get faster from there is by developing the small muscle groups in the hands and fingers.

Nizza594

02-09-2006, 11:48 AM

Sometimes I wonder what their standards are for platinum and diamond. I can get into the diamond on most of those, but some of them I can't even get out of gold. I can do the fast single strokes on platinum and some into diamond, but that's because they aren't constant singles, ala Worlds Fastest Drummer.

Same here Stu, Im pretty sure its very Drum Corp based as opposed to the average drumset player, and hey, when you havent got to learn 4 way co-ordination, foot technique etc, you might aswell spend the time getting rediculously fast with your snare rudys!

Im ok with most tho, paradiddle, 5 and 6 stroke roll etc I can fly right through all of them, but the singles, and even the double stroke seem rediculously fast, my doubles are pretty fast and clean but I still cant do diamond on there.

Stu_Strib

02-09-2006, 12:01 PM

Yeah, but we can still dream.

LIke you said, I'd rather spend my time sitting behind a kit!

RJ2k8

02-10-2006, 05:27 AM

When I play the drums I use my own grip. It's sorta like the matched grip but my right hand is tilted 90 degrees the left and my left hand is tilted 90 degrees to the right, gripping the sticks mainly with my three first fingers (thumb to middle) while last 2 rest. I can see the back of my hand when playing. I have always used this grip on my rolls and drumming. Is there any flaws or anything wrong with using "this" grip?

centralzeke

02-10-2006, 06:27 PM

That sounds fine. Don't know what you mean by the 90 degrees part, but the actual grip you're using is okay. That's the kind of the grip that Dave Weckl uses, it's the one I've been trying to use. I have it down in my right hand and I can actually take away my index finger and still have complete control.

FloEy

02-10-2006, 10:52 PM

Nizza594

02-11-2006, 02:26 AM

mattsmith

02-11-2006, 04:25 AM

I kind of think there is too much thought put into some of this. In my time with practicin these things there just isn't enough respect about the endurance you have to build up to and there really boring to work on. Yeah, they're supposed to be simple but they take alot out of you if you are not in shape. If you want to get good at singles you got to be willing to put in the practice time mostly for endurance. I kinda think this is why people are surprised when their abilities with them aren't as good as they think it ought t' be then they start this stuff about "well its only singles and i got better stuff to do." Anybody can do them if they practice enough," they say. But then your teacher asks "well did you?"
Most times the answer is no.

Somebody here said that sometimes you need to play singles with your arms for certain things. I dont know. I think its about wrists all the time. Just me though.

Tim Waterson

02-11-2006, 04:55 AM

ok i can do the push pull version of what you would call singles even though its like doing a double stroke roll. Anyways isnt this what Dave Weckle (i know i spelt his name wrong) uses? How does he get around the toms using it because I sure as hell cant!?
\
I do find Push pull easier to move around the drums for endurance and Yes using push pull can help but you have to co ordinate the up down motion is UNISON or it will fall into a double stroke roll.
ALL the things we do require PATIENCE and PRACTICE.
I always try to find ways to make the exercides FUN and not like an exercise but just disciplinin the repitition muscles.
Once you can do a your single strokes or whatever you just need to find the technique that alloews you to do this with the least amount of effort.
Keep practicing and have fun on the drums
When you play with your band the rules go out the windows JUST play and try and GROOVE to make the music feel good
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

FloEy

02-11-2006, 06:27 AM

If Im understanding correctly what your saying I just have to time the up and down strokes with each hand when I am moving around? All I know is that the transition from snare to tom is slow and when i hit the tom it feels different than the snare which ruins the whole feel. Im going to continue to work at it but hopefully you understand what I am saying. One more question, i tried using push pull for blast beats but the strokes are to light to hear when combined with db and a hi hat. Anyone get this problem?

RJ2k8

02-11-2006, 07:38 PM

My hand is just turned to the side.

That sounds fine. Don't know what you mean by the 90 degrees part, but the actual grip you're using is okay. That's the kind of the grip that Dave Weckl uses, it's the one I've been trying to use. I have it down in my right hand and I can actually take away my index finger and still have complete control.

jangus

02-16-2006, 09:09 PM

Eh?

Details...seven m

burnthehero

02-17-2006, 04:18 AM

over and over and over and over again

Stu_Strib

02-17-2006, 09:56 AM

RLRLRLRLRLRLRL on a practice pad?

Nizza594

02-17-2006, 12:45 PM

LOL,

You guys crack me up sometimes!

jonescrusher

02-17-2006, 03:08 PM

Best method i've found so far:

play continuous single strokes one-handed, say semiquavers at 80bpm, then 'fill in the gaps' with the other handed, as per 32nd notes, e.g:

R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R,

then

R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R
L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L

Repeat and vary pattern, swapping lead hand, aiming for consistent dynamic over both hands, no accents

EDIT: lol, can't get the letters to line up properly, sod it. The idea being that the trailing hand plays all the strokes between the leading hand strokes..

Do this for ten minutes a day, you'll be blazing in no time

GNR92

02-18-2006, 04:02 AM

I play singles on pillows as fast as I can and maybe only after a couple of minutes my hands hurt.

DarkToxin

02-18-2006, 04:41 AM

The Magic of Drums is that you can practice all over the place, and just remember RLRLRLRL, over... and over... and over again

jonescrusher

02-18-2006, 03:27 PM

I play singles on pillows as fast as I can and maybe only after a couple of minutes my hands hurt.

Each to their own, but that sounds like a bad way to improve your singles. Regaardless of the whole pillow debate, you should never only practice at full speed; always start slowly and work up to top speed, and cool down to a lower speed. If you do this, using a click of course, you'll probably find your top speed is faster than you thought.

Hurting hands is usually a sign of poor technique.....

Nizza594

02-18-2006, 04:38 PM

I agree with Jonescrusher.

Try the Vic Firth website and work through the 'test yourself' section, its fantastic for getting rudiments sorted. I generally start at the bottom level (bronze), and work right up to the top (diamond) and go down and back up a few times. Before you know it your hand technique is flying!

Ive got a normal vic firth practice pad, and also a moongel practice pad which has no rebound, i like to practice on both. The moongel is great as it really improves finger strength and speed. However for actually executing the technique, the pad with rebound is better because thats ultimately the conditions you have to play with, and you have to learn to use that rebound to your advantage.

nhzoso

02-22-2006, 07:24 PM

hey guys, I am doing single stroke 16ths, I just moved from 72 to 80bpm R,L,R,L, I am doing this to get better at single rolls. I do it everyday. Problem is after about 2 minutes my thumbs are killing me and I have to force myself to finish the full 5 minutes, usually gets a little sloppy. When I am done I can barely touch my pinkie with my thumb. Pretty sure I am holding sticks right because this does not happen on any other excercises I do. Question is, is this a good pain (no pain no gain) or should I back it down? It hurt at 72bpm also after about 3 mins. I hold the sticks with index, middle and thumb while other 2 rest. Thought I was holding to tightly but I tried less pressure and a stick flew out of my hand. My instincts tell me this is not good but I just wanna make sure I am not whimping out. Any suggestions or comments?
Thanks

averypoordrummer

02-22-2006, 07:25 PM

i find that when i'm playing correctly i can do a single stroke roll and the sticks feel weightless (this is when i use my wrists) but i can't do it faster than 16th notes at about 170bpm.

however when i switch to my fingers i tense up and find it hard to get good control.

i've only been playing for a year so all i'm doing now is sticking to comfortabe tempos, not using my fingers much and making sure i don't pull up on the sticks.

im hoping that speed will come and that i will be able to do it naturally after years of practice.

i know acheiving massive speed can't be rushed so im taking it easy.

T-1000

02-22-2006, 08:08 PM

Guys, doing flat flams (where there is no ghost note a moment before the actual hit because both sticks are hitting the pad/drum at *exactly* the same time) with whatever technique (push/pull, moeller, finger bouncing) will improve your accuracy to no end. Obviously start slow, then get faster. Eventually it should be like a one handed roll with both hands!

This is extremely hard (and hell no, I can't do it fast at all - it's hard even to do it slow).

Later, you may want to try this with your feet, or your hands and your feet using a double bass pedal, doing heel up, heel down, or heel toe. If you do both hands and feet, it will be eventually like doing a one handed roll and a one footed roll with both hands and feet, at the same time!

Righto, I have one question for you guys: what the hell is the gladstone technique, and is it similar to moeller, push/pull, fingers, etc..

And Dogbreath, if this has already been mentioned, sorry...

centralzeke

02-23-2006, 09:45 PM

Hey averypoordrummer, it's good to take it slow and be careful. I messed up my tendons in my elbows by straining. But I'm getting better now.

The Gladstone technique is simply a way of playing drums where you only play/think DOWN and you let the stick come back up by itself, without hardly any pulling up at all. When trying to practice it, you don't wind up either. If you remain relaxed when you practice then you're on the right path anyway. Yeah it has to do with "catching the bounce" with your fingers.. think about going with the stick and not imprisoning it. It can take a while to master but it is definately worth it, it'll propel you to new levels of drumming. I have it in my right hand.

Nhzoso it sounds like your thumb might be pressing on the stick too hard? I don't know I'd have to see it. Remember those fingers need to work together.

averypoordrummer

02-24-2006, 11:06 PM

Hey averypoordrummer, it's good to take it slow and be careful. I messed up my tendons in my elbows by straining. But I'm getting better now.

The Gladstone technique is simply a way of playing drums where you only play/think DOWN and you let the stick come back up by itself, without hardly any pulling up at all. When trying to practice it, you don't wind up either. If you remain relaxed when you practice then you're on the right path anyway. Yeah it has to do with "catching the bounce" with your fingers.. think about going with the stick and not imprisoning it. It can take a while to master but it is definately worth it, it'll propel you to new levels of drumming. I have it in my right hand.

ouch, i hope you make a full recovery quickly, and thanks for the advice.

centralzeke

02-25-2006, 02:18 AM

ouch, i hope you make a full recovery quickly, and thanks for the advice.

Yeah its all good. It's completely gone now from my right arm and know what, from being so paranoid about tensing up, I learned Moeller technique and free stroke in my right so I'll basically never tense up like that again.

It's still sort of in my left arm a little. I'm just trying to remain relaxed. I'm with ya on the using your fingers thing.. cause I've been trying to do the free stroke and only use my fingers in my left hand recently, but that isn't working, I have no control over the sticks, so I'm going back to more or less gripping the stick with all the fingers and using relaxed wrist technique.

averypoordrummer

02-26-2006, 11:15 AM

It's still sort of in my left arm a little. I'm just trying to remain relaxed. I'm with ya on the using your fingers thing.. cause I've been trying to do the free stroke and only use my fingers in my left hand recently, but that isn't working, I have no control over the sticks, so I'm going back to more or less gripping the stick with all the fingers and using relaxed wrist technique.

i find that i can use my fingers in my left hand fairly well now, although when im using my fingers, my left wrist moves a tiny bit more than my right.

im now going to tentatively offer anyone who reads this some advice on developing single stroke rolls, based on my (limited) experience (the first bit of advice i have ever offered on this forum).

when you're getting to grips with the gladstone technique or free stroke, you've got to let your wrists be so docile that they follow the stick back up. when you get this you will find that you can play large strokes very quickly because you use that mighty rebound to bring it back up. this gives you a huge increase in volume, as well as speed and control, so you can play loudly effortlessly at medium speeds.

i've found that when you're using your fingers, practicing in front of a mirror really helps because you can spot any mistakes or flaws in your technique. also, only concentrate on feeling the rebound and flicking your finger while you're playing. this worked really well for me and i noticed a huge speed increase in just one practice session. it felt more like i was just thinking what to do instead of doing it.

make sure you don't tense up as well, because it can hurt and you're wasting energy.

i'd just like to point out that i am far from becoming comfortable with the gladstone technique at high speeds, and it will be years from now before i do, but i hope this helps anyone in the same position as me.

FloEy

03-03-2006, 04:25 AM

regarding the fingers. do u guys open and close the bak three. Is that what u mean by using your fingers?

sejives

03-09-2006, 03:27 AM

Hi Nutha,

This is my very first post in the forum so please excuse me of any silly mistakes :-)
I've been working on my singles for quite a while and I've got some private lessons
on how to develop them. I don't want to cite names, but this guy is an awesome
teacher here in London and he showed me the power of the grip with the back three fingers
which enabled me to really develop my wrists. Unfortunately I stopped my private lessons cuz I ran out of money :-) but my point is that I never really got into finger control which is why I'm writing you. I've started the Kim Plainfield (advanced concepts book) single stroke exercise and I thought it was insane....10 counts of alternating RLRL 32nd notes at 144bpm. Of course I cannot do it, I don't have finger control. A while ago I was pretty amazed with my speeds when I played singles (32nd notes at 133bpm), only to realize
they weren't 32nd notes, but groups of 6 or 7. I was using fingers and I could sustain it for quite a while, but no way in hell am I able to play proper 32nd notes at that tempo.
so basically, without any further delays, my question is: based on the exercise you wrote, when would you normally start converting to fingers and more importantly, how exactly do you move them (fingers) and how's it supposed to feel like ? can you practice finger control at very slow tempos ? I'm a huge fan of playing ultra slow and also a very patient person. i know i'll get it if I stick to a proper routine/technique .

cheers man!

thanks.

i just remembered one more thing. as a teacher we had to learn about it. its called Vygotsky's Zone of Proximal Development. what it basically means is that under the right circumstances an adult can teach nuclear physics to a group of eight year olds and they will show learning and retention of the concepts. the theory is complex but in terms of the exercises above it pays to use VZP thusly:

Step Three
Occasionally try doing the exercise 20 to 30 b/min above your current bench mark. i mean right now get off your computer and try to play little bursts (ex 4) of singles at 155b/min. Can't do it? now try this VZP type pattern:

ex1 | ex1 | ex2 | ex2 |

ex3 | ex3 | ex3 | ex3 |

ex4 | ex4 | ex3 | ex3 |

ex4 | ex4 | ex3 | ex3 | and repeat...

better? if you could do it then you were playing at the worlds fastest drummer speed. now all you have to do is learn to maintain the flurries in ex4 for one solid minute and you'll top 1240 strokes!!!

j

Graeme@beatofdrum.com

03-16-2006, 11:37 PM

Hi.

why not check out this video on my website explaining tap strokes and down strokes...
http://www.beatofdrum.com/media/single-stroke-roll-1.wmv

Graeme

www.beatofdrum.com

xkevinx

03-20-2006, 02:18 AM

averypoordrummer

03-20-2006, 05:48 PM

i'm pretty content with the speed of my single stroke rolls. the issue i have is that the only way i can get the consistency and endurance is by accenting the first stroke of 4 on each hand with the moeller motion. this isn't a really big deal but i'd like to be able to do it without the noticable accenting (i'm thinking of billy cobham's solos and fills in mahavishnu era). any tips for this or do i just have to work on the finger control more?

i'm your opposite then, i find it much easier to play quickly without accents.
i'm using my wrists and i probably get to around 16th notes at 175-180 bpm max, fairly consistently.
my advice would be to practice the free stroke a lot, without accents, making every hit as even as possible.

xkevinx

03-21-2006, 04:00 AM

my free stoke is pretty impeccable as far as i'm concerned (although there is always room for improvement). i think the bad habit developed when i spent alot of time practising the moeller technique doing single hand triplets for an extended period of time. i'll just start slow like with anything and pay special attention to the free stroke. thanks.

averypoordrummer

03-22-2006, 05:55 PM

xkevinx

03-22-2006, 10:51 PM

to go from the really tense stick grip which i used for about 5 years to the loose free stroke that i use now took about 4 months of conciously readjusting the way i was holding the stick. keep in mind that when practising on your kit, you probably will have a very hard time achieving the full stroke (the 90 degree stroke that Dom shows on his cyber lesson and in his books) because that's primarily used in a marching setting where the skins are alot tighter than on the typical kit snare drum. do the 2-50 excersise and the stone killer while you're at it. play them slow and concentrate on loosening your grip. it's VERY natural and i can't understand how i was ever able to play any other way.

centralzeke

03-23-2006, 12:30 AM

Actually if you have the free stroke mastered, full strokes are easy even on a moderately low tuned snare drum. I only have it in one hand.

averypoordrummer

03-25-2006, 11:11 AM

Actually if you have the free stroke mastered, full strokes are easy even on a moderately low tuned snare drum. I only have it in one hand.

thing is, i can do full stroke well, i feel the rebound and it helps playing really loud, but my technique must be flawed on my half stroke technique and my low strokes because i tense up. kinda frustrating because i can do the full stroke pretty well.

Jacko Wacko

03-25-2006, 09:34 PM

shuffle

03-27-2006, 07:21 PM

The Stone killer is an exercise from Joe Morello's book Master Studies, to build endurance.

Here is a short resume

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/lesson.php?lessonid=171

L20

04-23-2006, 05:22 PM

I've been practicing the push pull technique for several months and can easily hold down a single stroke roll at 280BMP for more than a minute. But recenty I've been experiencing crippling pain in both my wrists. Other than practicing for less time, is there anyway this can be avoided?

Jeff Almeyda

04-28-2006, 01:52 AM

thing is, i can do full stroke well, i feel the rebound and it helps playing really loud, but my technique must be flawed on my half stroke technique and my low strokes because i tense up. kinda frustrating because i can do the full stroke pretty well.

I know what you mean. I had the same probelm and I found out that I didn't have the free stroke as well as I thought I did. I can now do the 2-50 exercise as 8th notes at 140 BPM. Danny Gottlieb is probably the benchmark for this. Morello says Gottlieb can do it at 200. That's amazing because most guys can't even do low strokes well at 200.

When I started this exercise, it used to take me more than an hour to get through. I can get thru the 2-50 in about 25 minutes now. That is the key that I have found for me. The work of bringing that stick through the full range of motion at higher and higher tempos really strengthrens and stretches the forearm and wrist . The result is that your technique becomes more and more relaxed and EVERYTHING becomes easier.

jarrod

05-25-2006, 01:43 PM

i can play a fast single stroke roll but not for very long.
i can roll down the toms really fast
but i cant stay in one spot (like the snare drum) and roll for a long time.. my stamina is really low.
how can you overcome this problem?
do you just have to play the roll at a comfortable speed and go from there?

Hi

what i do is keep all ya arm relaxd becuase as soon as you tense up you willl loose speed and you will proberly stuff up, and yeah dont make your self play really fast for sahorts amount of time it dosnt really make your idurance go up just ya speed practise at a good speed for a while and you will get more endurance at that speed then go faster anf faster by like 10bpm

mata

06-08-2006, 04:50 PM

I've been told that one of thes best exercises for single strokes is gary chaffee's endurance for singles, from his book technique patterns
I now that all his books are great but right now I don't have the money to purchase this, so could anyone explain what are they about? or at least tell me if it is somehow similar to this johnny rabb ones
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/Images/Merch/30%20Days%20Exercises/30%20Days%20Exercise%201.pdf
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/Images/Merch/30%20Days%20Exercises/30%20Days%20Exercise%202.pdf
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/Images/Merch/30%20Days%20Exercises/30%20Days%20Exercise%203.pdf
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/Images/Merch/30%20Days%20Exercises/30%20Days%20Exercise%204.pdf
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/Images/Merch/30%20Days%20Exercises/30%20Days%20Exercise%205.pdf

Ian Ballard

06-11-2006, 07:04 AM

Very nice points brought up here from everybody.

I find is crutial to developing different grips and finding the strenths and weaknesses of each, to be able to switch between them for maximum efficiency and physical stamina.

I can play singles just as fast with French tympani grip, as I do with a "center stage" grip like Bozzio and Wackerman use (and many others, I'm sure). Obeying the laws of physics, having an optimal surface angle and developing your muscular and reactionary control is essential to powerful, fast and crisply accurate singles.

The stick in going to fall, no matter what and your natural wrist motions should accomodate the travel of the stick, upon it's impact and the conservation of momentum that occurs. That stick will rebound, but in the process, the energy transferred into the drum that becomes sound that exits the drum, is lost. Therefore, one must transfer an equal exertion of energy to make that stick travel in it's straight line back to the drum with an equal dynamic.

I love the Chaffee/Famuliaro "degree" system of dynamics. Fifteen degrees for "pp" all the way up to 90 degrees for "fff". Couple that system with Stick Control excersizes and practicing in strict metric modulation. Quarters, to quarter trips, to eighths, to 5's to eighth triplets, to sevens, 32nds... then back down again. No speeding up and slowing down, rubato-style, do it metrically. If you use a strict metronome quarter, work on single-handed and RLRLRLR and LRLRLRLRL (ambidexterity is key in my system), and practice these things with the metric modulation, I think there is no speed which is not attainable, especically when coupled with pillow and brushwork. Heck, even using the old Buddy Rich quarter trick, REALLY pumps your control. If you can keep the quarter from jumping all over the place, and maintain a bounce in harmony to your relative stick movemets... move onto a dime. ;)

johnhavart

06-11-2006, 09:41 AM

the mersh

06-12-2006, 06:59 PM

I don't know if you guys mentioned it, but this page will hellp you alot with your technique in general, including one stroke rolls if you practice the exercises.

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/technique/wessels.html

johnhavart

06-13-2006, 05:33 PM

What's the "old Buddy Rich quarter trick" ?

Jared_Falk

06-13-2006, 08:41 PM

I was always told to place a quarter or dime on my snare drum and draw a circle around it. Then practice hitting the drum in that exact spot. One stick will actually have to move out of the way for the other one to come down and stroke the drum.

Tex12

07-03-2006, 06:35 AM

Checkout the single strokes Dennis Chambers displays at the end of the video In The Pocket
Awesome!

RobtheJazzDrummer

07-14-2006, 09:09 AM

I believe that the technique you use highly depends on the drum your playing on. In most cases, snares have more rebound then say, a floor tom. So on a snare, you could take advantage of the rebound and use only your fingers, and some wrist, if you see fit to. On a floor tom, you could use mostly wrist and some fingers. It all depends on the application. The best technique is a combonation of techniques that works for you as a whole.

First i suggest increasing the strength of your fingers. Then practicing single strokes only with your fingers on a practice pad, or somthing with alot of rebound. Then i suggest playing single strokes with only your wrists on somthing with no rebound. Such as a pillow. Once you have this down, you can move it to the Kit. Combine both of these aspects together, while accommodating for the various rebound of each drum.

Rob

JWM

08-01-2006, 07:52 PM

I have different ways of doing singles depending on the speed I'm trying to achieve and whether or not I want accents. For fast singles without accents at around the low stroke height (German position), it's the Gladstone technique of downward motion with the wrist and then controlling the rebound with the back three fingers in a relaxed locked grip (I "cradle" the stick with the back three fingers, but I don't squeeze the stick into my palm as that would create tension). Once I start hitting 16ths at around the 200 mark, the stick feels almost like it's "floating" in my fingers. This is because I'm controlling the rebound with the fingers while making the downward motion with the wrist.
This seems to be along the same lines of what Mike Mangini does. It works well on toms too where you have less rebound, but I find it's also faster and more comfortable on snare than an all finger technique where the wrist stays stable.

With accents, I employ the Moeller whipping motion. But I still keep the relaxed locked grip with all fingers on the stick (this includes the pinky), only the hand opens a bit leading into the whip. I have no tension whatsoever, and I can comfortably hit and sustain 240 with 16ths (or 120 as 32nds). In this case, I accent the first note of every four.

Ian Ballard

08-20-2006, 03:45 AM

Wow, awesome advice here!

Honestly, for singles there is no secret. Old fashioned sweat, tears and blisters... ;)

Cobham, Rich and Tony... all had the influential and amazing singles of the old generation. Bozzio has done very innovative things with splitting his hands between sound sources to simulate melodic/harmonic movement.

Basically I would suggest practicing on a pillow.. LOTS. Work on your physical transitions from fingers to wrists and then integrating the arms for fff stuff. Lastly I would recommend never practicing "rubato" or arbitrary speeding up and slowing down; work on speed metrically, from quarter notes to triplets, eighths, eighth trips, sixteenths...etc, etc.

Raymond Bloom

08-20-2006, 04:06 AM

Wow, awesome advice here!

Honestly, for singles there is no secret. Old fashioned sweat, tears and blisters... ;)

Oh no, no pain no gain is the worst practice method ever! Also, if you are geting blisters then it means something is not right

Basically I would suggest practicing on a pillow.. LOTS. Work on your physical transitions from fingers to wrists and then integrating the arms for fff stuff.Whatever works for you, I am against pillow practice, if you do want to practice on pillows do it for a short period of time every day, practice pad or drumset should be the thing you play the most not pillow... we are drummers, we play drums not pillows :-)

Here are some of the reasons why I am against practicing on pillows

Jojo Mayer:
Here's my 10 cents on this one:

Personally, I never practiced on pillows. Intuitively it felt not right. It's too much strain on your body to build facilities that way...we are musicians...not athletes.

Pillow practice will train your muscles against resistance and change the balance of the muscles towards slow twitching muscles as opposed to fast twitching muscles...you will build power, yes... Speed ,no. You were right about this (marathon/sprinter)

I guess the bottom line is that by practicing on pillows you will obtain a style of playing "throug" the drums as opposed to "out" of the drums. When you practice on pillows you will sound like playing on pillows behind the drumset too!

Dennis, Blackwell or Donati: dry staccato sound. Listen to Omar Hakim, Steve Smith, Morello or Weckl: open singing sound...

All these players have great control, speed and power.....so I guess go for the sound!

I will elaborate on this and much more on my upcoming instructional video too.
Peace,
Jojo

Ian Ballard

08-21-2006, 03:57 PM

Okay so the blister part was a bit of an exaggeration. ;) I haven't had a drumming-related blister in years, but I would not be able to play the blazing singles I'm capable of now, had I not gotten some, in the attempt to build said chops. Of course over time, technique and conformity with the laws of physics and my own body mechanics improved my ability to play without hurting myself. This is something I stress in my students.

Pillow practice has to be balanced with real instrument practice, but single strokes are just that and I'm seeing a lot of people overcomplicating something that is generally a repetition excersize. Power and speed are not some cryptic concept. In addition to power and speed, you need consistancy. Every single student I've pushed pillow practice on, has drastically improved speed and power... two things drummers tend to strive for in developing single strokes.

JoJo's comments about pillow practice not improving speed are overgeneralized and not accurate. I have speed-specific methods to improve playing "off" the drum better by virtue of the pillow not being under tension. If you approach pillow practice the same as a pad or a drum... yes, I can see his point. However, developing fast-twitch response ability is almost impossible to avoid if you work specifically on your exaggerated rebound and stroke recovery... methods that I've developed specifically for the pillow.

I'll post a video someday demostrating these methods.

ness

08-24-2006, 04:11 AM

im having trouble with my single stroke and im hoping someone can help me.

i have trouble keeping it smooth, and keeping a good flow trying to take it around the drumset for fills.

i also have a problem with accents, i can do a pretty good roll without them, but when i i try to add them they throw me off and it screws me up.

last, i find that whenever i do them i arms are very tense, is there anyway to fix it? its become a bad habbit of mine.

Raymond Bloom

08-24-2006, 11:06 AM

Pillow practice has to be balanced with real instrument practice, but single strokes are just that and I'm seeing a lot of people overcomplicating something that is generally a repetition excersize. Power and speed are not some cryptic concept. In addition to power and speed, you need consistancy. Every single student I've pushed pillow practice on, has drastically improved speed and power... two things drummers tend to strive for in developing single strokes.

JoJo's comments about pillow practice not improving speed are overgeneralized and not accurate. I have speed-specific methods to improve playing "off" the drum better by virtue of the pillow not being under tension. If you approach pillow practice the same as a pad or a drum... yes, I can see his point. However, developing fast-twitch response ability is almost impossible to avoid if you work specifically on your exaggerated rebound and stroke recovery... methods that I've developed specifically for the pillow.

I'll post a video someday demostrating these methods.
Yeah, that would be cool if you could show us some videos!

I have to say that using Jojo's advice and the concept of Free Stroke and Moeller I never had the need of practicing on pillows, when I sometimes test my speed I'm close to 1000 strokes in a minute... I guess that's not bad! Also, I have no problmes playing with power

One thing that sounds weird to me is when you say ''methods that I've developed specifically for the pillow.'' Pillow technique? :D Maybe it works, I don't know, since I hadn't have the chance of trying your method!

Actually, Jojo IS right, about not developing speed form resistance practice and about the low twiching and fast twiching muscles, you can only get power this way, for example sprinters do not build up speed in a gym...! Also wieghtlifter could not run a marathon (well not as fast and without getting really tired heh) because he have developed his muscle mass and great power but not endurance for really long periods of time
Jojo Mayer: ''That's cruical to get the speed: less mass = more agility /speed.''

Kenny Aldrich

09-24-2006, 04:12 AM

less mass = more agility /speed.''

well now I wish I hadn't found this thread but it's too late.... I did!

the quote above has merit I agree with the concept but it has vastly deviated from newtons 4th theory or n-4 it's getting late for me to post a long drawn out reason but will suggest to every one to have a look at newtons theories esp n4! the basic principal is easy.. if you push a wall at 50lbs pressure the wall pushes back 50 lbs pressure so when you apply that to drumming it sort of says if you throw the stick down say 20kg's it will rebound back@ 20kg's! now that we know this a lot of the theories I hear involving muscle mass ie the smaller muscles are faster um yes they are faster because they are lighter [less mass] but! with the small muscles comes small power [gun powder works the same way less gun powder slower bullet all things being equal rifling etc.] so at some point you must introduce the heavier or stronger muscles otherwise speed will equal less power and I think certain techniques are flawed with this volume or pressure loss while other techniques allow for more power at a slightly reduced speed, in other words you cannot have your cake and eat it too because somewhere lies a dividing line we may be hitting on this dividing line here in this forum, now you might say ... "I want to play the fastest single stroke imaginable" I say great but don't expect that technique to be heard unmiked in a field or stadium NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! PERIOD!! musically speaking I would suggest a slightly slower technique that offers more in the way of dynamic level rather than a monotone hum at super sonic speeds because at that point I believe it to be musically worthless, speed for the sake of speed is just fast, as power for the sake of power is just loud! a middle ground technique should be used instead of a hybrid technique that emphasises one and ignores the other [works both ways of course] this principal is nothing new it is part of just about everything in nature one could say where balance is present true beauty exists to me balance is everything just my .02's worth

Kenny Aldrich

09-24-2006, 03:42 PM

I thought I might touch on the whole "pillow technique" these are only my opinions on this so if i offend someone please accept my apologies in advance...

A famous quote I remember By buddy Rich [forerunner of speed drumming?] was this.."I never saw the need to practice on a pillow for the same reason a horn player doesn't practice trumpet with a sock stuck in the bell" That make a world of common sense if nothing else because while both might develop strength it does nothing to improve musicality and I think all technique should be practiced with musicality in mind ALL TECHNIQUE'S. because isn't that the reason we started playing music to begin with? I will admit in days of yore we all used to practice on soft couch pillows for endurance [I'm guilty of this as well] I say guilty in hindsight of the advances we have seen in hand development in the last ten years, most of which frowns on straining or muscle "over tension" as this can cause permanent damage to cartilage [non replaceable btw] and severe muscle trauma, ganglion's etc. none of which are very pleasant to suffer and yes these injuries can happen even if done in moderation but lets face it if your practicing on pillows the very idea of moderation is somewhat cast aside from the very onset of such practice, I think we can agree that practicing on anything but a drum is not as beneficial as practicing on a real drum simply because a pad/pillow feels nothing like a drum or in the case of a very good pad it sort of feels like a real drum which is better, but in my opinion never a substitute for the real instrument [I use a pad for noise issues in my apt. complex] NO OTHER REASON. I am in favor of just about anything in life that utilises balance and veers away from unbalanced disharmonious imbalance.[read: ti chi] having said that I do use a drumometer but not in the way most [I said most not all] people use it, I use it to time my hands so the space between my notes are spaced evenly [a neglected benefit of this piece of gear] again by most but by no means all.. through this type of RELAXED practice I have seen positive if not earth shattering speed increases [again not my point] as I believe 100 well played/spaced notes can often time give the sonic illusion of being faster than 300 sloppy notes [at whatever spm] now don't bite my head off I do realise there are guy/gals out there who spend an awful lot of time on this and play the aforementioned 300 strokes and much more! both cleanly and at super sonic bpms and I believe if that is what you want your focus to be COOL!! but once you have "mastered"? that ability you will at some point have to concentrate on being musical as well and your concentration focus will have to shift [again this goes both ways] powerful muscle building practice by the old school friends of mine and fine motor development of my drumometer speed freak friends I sit in the middle of both camps realising the benefits of both worlds but never at the expense of musicianship which in my opinion should be focus #1

Kenny

a solo clip of me a few years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkKlTqWFSZU

FunkTional Art

09-25-2006, 12:10 PM

I thought I might touch on the whole "pillow technique" these are only my opinions on this so if i offend someone please accept my apologies in advance...

A famous quote I remember By buddy Rich [forerunner of speed drumming?] was this.."I never saw the need to practice on a pillow for the same reason a horn player doesn't practice trumpet with a sock stuck in the bell" That make a world of common sense if nothing else because while both might develop strength it does nothing to improve musicality and I think all technique should be practiced with musicality in mind ALL TECHNIQUE'S. because isn't that the reason we started playing music to begin with? I will admit in days of yore we all used to practice on soft couch pillows for endurance [I'm guilty of this as well] I say guilty in hindsight of the advances we have seen in hand development in the last ten years, most of which frowns on straining or muscle "over tension" as this can cause permanent damage to cartilage [non replaceable btw] and severe muscle trauma, ganglion's etc. none of which are very pleasant to suffer and yes these injuries can happen even if done in moderation but lets face it if your practicing on pillows the very idea of moderation is somewhat cast aside from the very onset of such practice, I think we can agree that practicing on anything but a drum is not as beneficial as practicing on a real drum simply because a pad/pillow feels nothing like a drum or in the case of a very good pad it sort of feels like a real drum which is better, but in my opinion never a substitute for the real instrument .........etc.

Kenny

a solo clip of me a few years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkKlTqWFSZU

Hi Kenny,

In a Dennis Chambers video "SERIOUS MOVES" the fella interviewing Dennis comments on his effortless single stroke fills that he uses and asks him how did he develop this. Dennis answers him by telling him a story of when he was a young boy seeing Buddy Rich live and how he was wowed and amazed with Buddy's speed. Dennis speaks of meeting Buddy after his performance and Buddy told Dennis that he practiced on PILLOWS and said if you want to develop speed like his then to do the same. Dennis then continues to explain that after he spent some time developing his technique on a pillow or some non rebound type surface that when he played on the drumset his limbs and hands went through an adjustment period because his hands were faster than his limbs from working on pillows with no rebound having to lift or return the stick for each stroke. Now that he was playing on surfaces that had rebound it took some getting used to.

“Speed is a result of Slow Accurate practice” Joe Morello

Kenny Aldrich

09-25-2006, 02:02 PM

Hi Kenny,

In a Dennis Chambers video "SERIOUS MOVES" the fella interviewing Dennis comments on his effortless single stroke fills that he uses and asks him how did he develop this. Dennis answers him by telling him a story of when he was a young boy seeing Buddy Rich live and how he was wowed and amazed with Buddy's speed. Dennis speaks of meeting Buddy after his performance and Buddy told Dennis that he practiced on PILLOWS and said if you want to develop speed like his then to do the same. Dennis then continues to explain that after he spent some time developing his technique on a pillow or some non rebound type surface that when he played on the drumset his limbs and hands went through an adjustment period because his hands were faster than his limbs from working on pillows with no rebound having to lift or return the stick for each stroke. Now that he was playing on surfaces that had rebound it took some getting used to.

“Speed is a result of Slow Accurate practice” Joe Morello

I doubt very much buddy actually said that because he is quoted time and again about how he felt drum pads and pillows were great if you wanted to go out and play them instead of drums, I've heard/ read seen buddy say this in almost every interview I have ever read and the all to common quote about practice.. buddy: " I never practice, when I come off the bandstand that's it it's over and I do other things" everybody has heard buddy say that at least once! whether you believe it is another story.

now take a look at both dennis technique as opposed to buddy's technique I actually believe dennis did practice on pillows because although he is fast he also has a lot of tension in his arms

buddy's technique looks defiantly easy by comparison when buddy played it looked like water pouring off a cliff it was very liquid in how it looked almost greasy [sorry for bad analogies] but I think it gets the point across

one day in 1983 [I was 18 then] me and my brother were at a buddy concert [lake compounce in bristol Ct.] my brother spotted buddy alone sitting on the steps of his bus and my brother who has sort of brass nuts said hey look there's buddy lets talk to him, well to make a long story short we did walk over to buddy he was smoking what i thought was a cigarette but it was pot we ended up smoking it with him and talking drums for over 45 min, I asked him a whole bunch of questions and THE pillow question was asked and he said" no way your going to ruin your hands just play the goddamned drums and forget all of that Bs pull your sticks up when you practice make sure when you do it that you come up straight ... that's all I ever did".. you see when buddy was alone he dropped all of his phony bravado [if he liked you] and became like this great guy to hang with if you've never seen him act like this I know that can be hard to imagine.. hell I was shocked myself. so I'm thinking what dennis said is a direct misquote

Morrello is correct you must practice slowly and evenly for speed and accuracy [morello is also not into pillow practice] I took a few lessons from him and also attended a 1 week intensive program ludwig drum co. used sponser [wow the good old days are gone] the line up was butch miles and ed shaugnessy but ed was sick and morrello took his spot!!!!! he was all about natural rebound joe is among the living and a true legend and I believe he accepts students on a limited basis if your ever in jersey look him up and ask him for yourself about pillows he cracked me up with his answer " ya I use a pillow every night when I'm sleeping ...dont you"..

I'm not calling anyone here a liar so don't get me wrong however i was lucky enough to have spoken directly and at length with a couple of drum legends I cherish those moments to this day as probably the best 2 or 3 hours of my life so far.my info is first hand not third and as far as i know none of the technical "masters" ever say pillow practice is a good thing...

centralzeke

09-25-2006, 03:20 PM

How did you get chops like that? Your hands look like Buddy Rich's..

Kenny Aldrich

09-25-2006, 03:30 PM

How did you get chops like that? Your hands look like Buddy Rich's..

Well I thank you but beleive me like many of us I have a long way to go [but that was ten years ago heh heh]

I did a serious amount of snap ups is all and for balance I use to play on a pad @ppp volume at different tempos utilizing different rudiments and combinations. when I was young [er] I used to challenge myself by taking a raw egg from the refrigerator and playing as fast and as quite as I could without cracking it lolol the crap I used to do I tell ya

which btw is now considered old school, as I look around this forum I noticed a bunch of guys talking about free hand etc. a technique I know very little about but I am looking into it more and more so far it looks viable to me, though I wonder about power.. so far it does appear to be the fastest technique as proven by the wfd guys

FunkTional Art

09-25-2006, 03:54 PM

Read the thread about pillow practice pros and cons.

FunkTional Art

09-25-2006, 03:54 PM

I doubt very much buddy actually said that because he is quoted time and again about how he felt drum pads and pillows were great if you wanted to go out and play them instead of drums, I've heard/ read seen buddy say this in almost every interview I have ever read and the all to common quote about practice.. buddy: " I never practice, when I come off the bandstand that's it it's over and I do other things" everybody has heard buddy say that at least once! whether you believe it is another story.

now take a look at both dennis technique as opposed to buddy's technique I actually believe dennis did practice on pillows because although he is fast he also has a lot of tension in his arms

buddy's technique looks defiantly easy by comparison when buddy played it looked like water pouring off a cliff it was very liquid in how it looked almost greasy [sorry for bad analogies] but I think it gets the point across

one day in 1983 [I was 18 then] me and my brother were at a buddy concert [lake compounce in bristol Ct.] my brother spotted buddy alone sitting on the steps of his bus and my brother who has sort of brass nuts said hey look there's buddy lets talk to him, well to make a long story short we did walk over to buddy he was smoking what i thought was a cigarette but it was pot we ended up smoking it with him and talking drums for over 45 min, I asked him a whole bunch of questions and THE pillow question was asked and he said" no way your going to ruin your hands just play the goddamned drums and forget all of that Bs pull your sticks up when you practice make sure when you do it that you come up straight ... that's all I ever did".. you see when buddy was alone he dropped all of his phony bravado [if he liked you] and became like this great guy to hang with if you've never seen him act like this I know that can be hard to imagine.. hell I was shocked myself. so I'm thinking what dennis said is a direct misquote

Morrello is correct you must practice slowly and evenly for speed and accuracy [morello is also not into pillow practice] I took a few lessons from him and also attended a 1 week intensive program ludwig drum co. used sponser [wow the good old days are gone] the line up was butch miles and ed shaugnessy but ed was sick and morrello took his spot!!!!! he was all about natural rebound joe is among the living and a true legend and I believe he accepts students on a limited basis if your ever in jersey look him up and ask him for yourself about pillows he cracked me up with his answer " ya I use a pillow every night when I'm sleeping ...dont you"..

I'm not calling anyone here a liar so don't get me wrong however i was lucky enough to have spoken directly and at length with a couple of drum legends I cherish those moments to this day as probably the best 2 or 3 hours of my life so far.my info is first hand not third and as far as i know none of the technical "masters" ever say pillow practice is a good thing...

Thanks for the interesting storie Kenny about meeting Buddy. If you get a chance check out Dennis's video.

CVdrummer

09-25-2006, 10:34 PM

Does anyone know a good exercises to accomplish fast singles?

tnnx =]

jazzsnob

09-25-2006, 10:50 PM

Get your practice pad and a kitchen timer. Set the timer to 5 minutes and the metronome to 132. Play 16th notes at a low height, as EVENLY AS POSSIBLE. Every minute or so, do a crescendo up to the highest volume you can play, hold it up there for 4 bars, and bring it down again. Even if it feels slow to you, keep it at 132. Do this a couple of times a day for a week, and if you have it perfected at the end of the week(think:would I be willing to show this to Thomas Lang/whoever the f*ck your favorite drummer is and say it's pretty good?), move the metronome up one click. If you don't have it PERFECTLY EVEN AND RELAXED, do it another week at 132 and don't feel bad about it. Keep doing this and moving it up as you progress. It starts to get REALLY DAMN HARD at about 168 or 176(for most of us anyway) and it will take you a while before you are ready to move it up. Stay relaxed, even and low, and you'll be alright. By the time you get to about 184-192 you'll hit a wall. My drum teacher says it takes about ten years to really get to 208.

Also, even though you might spend 3 months working on 176, during those 3 months you will see a lot of improvement in your drumset playing.

PS:There is already a big thread for this stuff. But this exercise isn't in it so it stays. But nutha will probably close this thread.

Kenny Aldrich

09-26-2006, 03:37 AM

the buddy story is a fairly cool story thanks for listening!

again not calling you OR Denise a liar sometimes people mis quote I fully believe you when you tell me he said it on the video but having been around buddy not only the few times in person but I have read and seen him speak a hundred times over on his technical beliefs and know for a fact he didn't go for pillow practice and so go's my reason for calling it a misquote.

pillow practice? well as I said in my first post i was guilty of that in the beginning got carpal tunnel and was told by a very respected Dr. in the music community to switch practice methods, no more forced resistance for me.... to much risk!

Wile E. Coyote

09-27-2006, 07:51 PM

Progressions:
Set the metronome to a slow tempo.
Play every figure 4 bars:
quarter notes, 8ths, triplets, 16ths, quintuplets, 6tuplets, 7tuplets, 32nds, an the same backwards.
When you feel comfortable, speed up the metronome some points.

Odaroo

09-28-2006, 09:49 PM

This thread contains lots of great tips and links.
Thanks, guys :]

frustrated 55 year old

10-20-2006, 11:25 AM

n2xlr8n

10-24-2006, 02:46 PM

Hope this is the right thread.

Okay, I've been shedding the free stroke for 3 months now. I haven't gone past 100 bpm=the quarter. There for awhile i was able to feel the stick take my hand back to the top after the initial throw down. Last night and tonight I'll be damned... I can't feel the "lift."
Is this normal? The stick (5AN Vic Firth) feels like a 2x6 just milled by Weyerheuser.
I thought it might be that my watch was acting as some kind of tourniquet. No.

Something else that's ruined my night: Stick slippage. As I say...after 3 months the stick is still slipping (forward) maddeningly.

Any help? Please?!!

Dale.

Much like yourself, I'm a 40 yr old, studying rudiments for the first time.

I think everyone has days like that, whether playing the kit or playing golf. Stick with it. I know I used to have days like that 3 times a week. Now they occur once a week, so I'm viewing that as progress.

S.

Vlad Popescu

10-24-2006, 05:14 PM

should i use fingers? which fingers? just middle? or all?

Hi
do you know Jim Chapin?

mikeh23

10-25-2006, 02:31 AM

i haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaave six arms

frustrated 55 year old

10-25-2006, 10:49 AM

I'd like to try the third finger fulcrum. What I think it is, I've been experimenting with for the last day or three. It seems my grip is much more relaxed...I can go faster without strain and the free stroke seems easier. Anybody have thoughts on this? Anybody know exactly how to grip the stick using the third finger fulcrum. I think it's also called the three point fulcrum. Much appreciated.

Dale.

jazzin'

10-26-2006, 04:04 PM

You know what you could do instead of the ol' pillow practice which is similar in concept but much more useful. Do your normal practice with sticks on pads or whatever but then devote a portion to practicing with brushes and getting your singles and doubles (especially doubles as well as all the other rudiments) with them good. Not only do you get the same benefit as you would from pillow practice but you get comfortable with brushes and there are many very cool and super hip extra rudiments to get into with brushes...you know, various sweeps and tap sounds in place of other strokes in the rudiments...stuff like that. It will absolutely, definitely help your stick playing while adding some serious brush playing to your arsenal!

Brushes! Yeah!

*sweepity sweep, tappity tap*

RudimentalDrummer

10-27-2006, 03:55 AM

Dear all

I've a question here. They say - Fast Single Stroke is dependent heavily on Rebound eg Moeller Techniques....now if we practice Singles on a pillow - how is it going to help us in getting very fast singles...or Single stroke should only be practice using a Pad whatever that stimulate Rebound as in a snare?

DrumMasterDave

11-03-2006, 07:20 AM

Practicing on a pillow works great to develope your wrists. But your right, you will get ery little rebound from your stick with this. However, developing your wrists is KEY for moeller technique. Being able to get the propper power and stamina, as well as motions from your wrists is what allows you to get the rebound when you use the snare. So do not stop this style of preactice. Just make sure you apply it to the practice pad now and then too!

jazzin'

11-05-2006, 06:46 AM

Maybe you could make up some great exercises employing both pad and pillow.
You get some great mobility/facility learning how to control the strokes from rebound to none.
You would also develop your wrists and fingers or whatever you're doing.

Straight sixteenths 8 bars to repeat on pillow and buzz rolls to straight sixteenths on pillow.
Hmmm, I gonna try this out:)

Steve M

11-08-2006, 10:50 PM

check out thomas langs preview clip from the upcomming dvd - nice single stroke on the left hand - its on hudsonmusic.com

Ivan

11-10-2006, 03:52 PM

Hey guys
I have a question about the single stroke roll:

I recently started to practice it and it's damn hard, I know it will take a long time to be able to play it fast and evenly and I'm OK with that. My concern though is that when I practice, say 32nds and the metronome playing quarters at 63 BMP, and try to hold it out a few minutes, my wrists start to get tired. And don't get me wrong, it's not the "strain-pain" it's more like the exercise pain you get when doing sports for example.

Otherwise I have a very loose grip, and I'm very comfortable with it while playing. But it seems like when I do the single stroke roll at fast tempos, my wrists has to "push down" all the rebound I get.

How should I avoid this (if I should at all?)
Thanks

lochday

11-18-2006, 09:11 AM

Aargh! Vygotsky's ZPD!! Brings back nightmares of my final year developmental psychology dissertation!

Yeah! Vygotsky's theory of social construction of knowlege (and skills) is very subtle and it's quite debatable, but Nutha's way of applying it to drumming is great and to the point, isn't it?
Thinking about his post made me realize that practicing drums in one's zone of proximal development without any help or assistance (which I too often did in the past), and not in the right conditions is dangerous.
Doing this can only lead you in a land of delusion about one's drumming; ie nowhere in term of added value to your level.
Nutha's chart of exercises and the method provided with it ensures that one can work in one's ZPD without any risk of delusion and become more efficient and skilled. The nightmare of the self-taught drummer is partly behind us.
I guess you probably wrote a great dissertaion. The nightmare is behind you anyway. -;)

Insane Drumming Inc.

01-03-2007, 10:56 AM

You should never rely on the stick, why? That is fine when you are on a pad but when you want to deliver power and accuracy around the drumset it is absolutely useless. When i was doing the WFD clinics i always played single strokes as if i were playing them on my kit, reason for this is that i am developing technique that will be applied to the kit. This is why my scores were never any better than 1030 to 1050 because i never wanted to sacrafice the quality of my roll for a score. Simply stated, play all the notes.

I will have a new dvd coming out this year entitled " Insight Into Insane Single Strokes". This dvd will be a step by step instructional to teach my single stroke method. To view some single stroke examples feel free to drop by my page.......

Insanely yours,
Seth
www.myspace.com/insanedrumming

drumskillz

02-07-2007, 02:57 PM

Hey guys, I there's a nice lesson here that will build your endurance and control to executing the single stroke roll. Work this one up slowly and use a metronome. Good luck. http://www.drumskillz.com/cont_view.php?cont_id=42

DRUMBOY

02-26-2007, 07:34 AM

Jotan Afanador's single's are amazing so clean and clear you have to check this clip on his site they are perfect! WoW!

this guy is insane, crazy check out the link

http://myspace.com/JOTANAFANADOR

johnny boy

langywangy

04-10-2007, 09:44 AM

okay, this is avery long thread and im sure this may have been mentioned before but il risk it lol! im trying to develop my single strokes and not getting on massively well so heres a basic question: Am i right in trying to develop my fingers and wrists? i can do all pretty much any other rudiment at speed since i passed grade 7 years ago and consider my self much better than then so i feel my wrists must be ok so i assume that i need to develop the less used finger technique to enable better speeds. to do this im trying to do one handed 16th notes (four strokes for every click at 75-85) alternating after about 8 bars (LLLL LLLL LLLL ... RRRR RRRR RRRR...) is this the best way to go about it? im comfortable with my right hand up to about 85-90 but i wouldnt say its comfortable for long. i just have a phobia of practising the wrong way and making things no better after months!

thanks in advance

LANG